Padma Bhushan Awardee Daaji on Religion & Science Vs. Spirituality | Abhijit Chavda Podcast 34 | Transcription
Transcription for the video titled "Padma Bhushan Awardee Daaji on Religion & Science Vs. Spirituality | Abhijit Chavda Podcast 34".
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Number one problem today in the world is religion. It's all about that, from desire. If those desires are not fulfilled, what happens? You become irritable. Crotha is produced after that. I have never seen anger coming out in children during my time, when we grew up. These children, they don't get something and they lose their head. If I expect that artificial intelligence will so improve my soul, improve my character, then you are giving yourself on some sort of a lease to be handled by someone else. Daji, thank you so much for being on the podcast and for hosting me in the magnificent Kana Shanti Bhana.
Personal Journey And Spiritual Insights
Iconic Journey (00:34)
Thank you so much, sir. Thank you too. So I have a lot of questions, sir, but let us begin with the story of the Ram Chandra Mission, which you are heading now. What is the story behind this, sir? Well, it starts everything like a, you know, triplet, a small few drops at a time and then becomes the ocean. It's a natural process and time comes when we give it an organized structure. It all began sometime in 1873. Okay. And the auspicious beginning of Sri Ram Chandra Ji was born in Fatehgarh, UP. Somehow he reinvented, rather he was inspired to stumble upon an ancient technique called Pranahuti. This Pranahuti is much different from Pranayam and Pranapratishtha.
How Its Organized (01:50)
It's very different. It is done consciously. It is done to living beings unlike where they do Pranapratishtha in a non-living entity. Yes. A structure, a curve that is given the shape of a murti after Pranapratishtha. His belief was that if I can transmit Pranahuti instead of transmitting Pranapratishtha to a living being, then they can witness and say, "Yes, I received it. Murti is not going to speak that I received Pranah."
And that I have become worshipable. No worshipable entity would ever declare that I am worshipable. Even if it's a murti. Within human beings, when we receive Pranah, Pranachya Pranaha, one that nourishes your soul, and when you experience it, then you can say, "Yes, I received it. I'm benefiting from this Pranah." And this is how the faith begins. And likewise, he developed many enthusiasts who received this Pranahuti in his own neighborhoods. And then the news spreads, another village, another, you know, one after the other. And he started having many satsanghis during his lifetime. They were in hundreds, I would say, not in thousands, at least. After him, when he passed away in 1931, coincidentally, the gentleman who succeeded him was also Ramchandra. I see. So in order to differentiate, we call the first one as Lalaji and the second one as Babuji. And he, Babuji, in his master's honor, established Sri Ramchandra Mission in 1945. I see. That was an organized effort to propagate this knowledge of Pranahuti. And in his vision, he found that one of the receives from the Surya dynasty, 72 generations before Adha Dasarath, and most probably, I feel that it must have been Rishabh Nath, who had introduced this idea of Pranahuti. And during his lifetime, he could activate this Pranahuti and make people benefit from it. But after his passing, this knowledge was lost. Teaching was there, but how to transmit this Pranahuti was lost. I see. And with the help of Sri Ramchandra Sajanthur, through his organized effort, he would move from place to place. Like Lalaji was stationed at one place, Vatakat, and would travel only in his district. But Babuji was traveled all over the globe and propagate this ancient knowledge, which prevailed 72 generations before Raja Dasarath. And he made people experience. His simple approach was that you need not have faith to begin religion or to even believe in God. Faith is the product of your own efforts. If you do something in certain direction and you say, "Yes, this is benefiting me, and I am able to realize something which is beyond myself," then you can say, "Yes, I am moving in the right direction." And this is how simple faith develops and then trust develops. Sada develops. And out of Sada, bhakti develops in your heart for God, in a true sense. Otherwise, we keep on doing things ritually, in a very artificial way. Day after day, we keep on doing the same thing mechanically. And here, the difference is when you close your eyes and receive this Pranah putti, and see the difference in your heart, the way you perceive things. And also how your life changes day after day, becoming softer and softer. You are transformed and becoming a better human being, of which you yourself can be proud of that, "Yes, I am a better human being." So this is spiritual as well as how it is spread across the globe. After him, he succeeded a gentleman who was a director of one of the TTK, Krishna Vasalya group, from Chennai. And after him, it was my luck to succeed him.
Modernizing Traditions (06:54)
Destiny would bring me to this path and say, "Okay, you have to carry on with this task." And now we are, I think, in over 160 countries. I see. And our job is now to inspire youth more and more, in a very scientific way.
The path of Yoga (07:16)
We conduct many researches also in a scientific way, and what happens to your physiological, neurological functions, your moods, your anxiety, your stress, just by practicing this for a week. I see. And we have outstanding results. So we have slightly, I would say, have a science also getting involved with research work. Only then, I think, the rest of the humanity who believes in science, nothing wrong in believing in science. In fact, the bridging of science and spirituality will only make lives even more enjoyable. iPhones and other stuff, you know, they are products of science. Inner harmony, inner peace, inner joy, inner bliss, they are products of spirituality. And when we bridge both spiritual and bhautic or material life, and if we can succeed in both, nothing like it, say. Right. So what's your journey been like? How did your path intersect with the path of the mission? Well, I believe now that the path that we have undertaken, even from previous lives, it's one continuous journey. Somewhere our samskaras pushes you in one direction. If our free will behaves differently and works against the pushes of samskaras, either they can be positive or it can be negative. Right. Fortunately, I was brought up in a very samskaric tradition of our culture. And then my destiny would lead me to introduction to Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa, his gospel at a very early age. And while reading those books, I could move your heart so much that you would wonder why I wish. I was also present during his lifetime, or I wish Ramakrishna would again embrace me by sending someone like him. That inner cry was there, I see. And one find, I found this gentleman through a friend of mine who said, "Let's go and meditate." I said, "Why not?" And that's where the journey began as a student. I was a college student then, 19 years of age. I see. And third year of pharmacy. And then many of my friends and few of our professors started meditations. After graduation, I went to the US. That's when I deepened my practice in the United States. While doing businesses also, I made sure that I would practice this thing at least three times a day, half hour in the morning, half hour in the evening and five minutes before going to sleep. That was enough, I think. And now and then we would have satsangs like group meditations at home or at business or we'll have some big arranged seminars. And it went on and on and on and on. And it still continues. Right. So, sir, what is heartfulness? Heartfulness is what the mission is known for. It is a form of Raja Yoga. Yes. So, could you describe what it is like? See, we have in Indian tradition many forms of yogas. Very well known today and credits go to our honorable Prime Minister Sri Mudiji, who made yoga a worldwide name, household name. People perform asanas, pranayams and so many other things. But in reality, as you see, we should add the entire Astanga Yoga to make it known as a perfect yoga. Dhyanam, dharana, dhyana and samadhi, they are just internal aspects of doing yoga. And once you bring in the outer and inner, it becomes a complete package of yoga. Culmination is through samadhi, which is all related with mind. Yes. The kingly things in human being, human manas, is manas, mind. Mind is. Right. Among all yogas, the kingly thing is Raja Yoga because it deals with mind. Okay. This particular path offered by Sri Ramasindraji, it is a combination, it is a hybrid, I would say, of Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Gyani Yoga. Okay. It is a whole thing. That is why it is not a pure Raja Yoga, only dealing with the mind because this one deals also with the heart. See, without bhakti, without love, without passion, if you perform Karma, it becomes SRAM, it becomes labor, where you lose body weight. Yes. If you labor in a farm, you lose body weight. But if you can act on your body with a lot of enthusiasm, you go to gym, you build body. Yes. Right. So it is the enthusiasm that makes difference. Passion. So work becomes worship. Even while working, you introduce this element of love, passion. Then what can become worship? You can play cricket, you can earn money, you can do your household works, you can lead a perfect family life and make it as a worship. Likewise, knowledge, Gyani Yoga. You can acquire a lot of knowledge. Many professors are there, but no character. True. Without love, you cannot have a character. So without bhakti, knowledge becomes burden. You look like a fool. Too much knowledge, but you have no devotion, no love in your heart. It becomes your burden. So this beautiful path, I like to call it the path of KGB. K for Karma, G for Gyan and B for bhakti. Karma, Danvit bhakti, Gyan arrived at with bhakti. Makes it flowering of your own life. So in those, when we look at it that way, I see that everything that we now understand after many years of practice, that it activates your heart. What is the difference between animal, human and humane? Animals we have seen, they have their own impulses. Human being is also an animal, but slightly more elevated because he can think.
Hungarian & Human (15:02)
Humane, when we talk of humane qualities, it involves the heart. And the main qualities of heart is compassion, kindness, love. And when we try to go beyond all this, even humane, then we talk about angelic qualities, divine qualities. And it goes on and on and on, transcending one layer after another layer. So journey is infinite. The name Heartfulness we stumbled upon by the very quality of the system. A while back mindfulness was rampant and it is still, it has a good value. I mean, it's a value addition to yoga, I would say. It's a great contribution by Lord Buddha. Mindfulness is all about self-awareness. It's a great thing. But awareness is not enough. If it is not made dynamic in your day-to-day life by involving heartfelt action, you became aware. But what do you do? You take a next step, you saw someone is suffering, you became aware of it. What is your next step? Then that's where the heart comes into picture. And the heart is also, it's nothing new for India. Lord Krishna involved, I mean, his main message of life is bhakti. And bhakti is, I think it's part and parcel of your heart. It matters, business with the heart. This path is also all about heart. And in order to make it more appealable to the rest of the world and to the modern minds, we, I think we, naman, we did declare the name or namanclature was changed. From Sahaj bhag to heartfulness. It was known during my predecessor's time at Sahaj bhag. And now we call it as heartfulness. It's the same thing. The old wine in new bottles. Who is it for? Who will it benefit? Whoever wants to transform oneself and say, I want to become better. Better in which way? Well, changing the inner qualities. Where you feel deficit in yourself that, oh, I lack this quality or I'm always anxious. People don't want to improve them, you know, at intellectual level. Some people say, oh, I have a snappy temper, irritable anger, tendency to become anxious and stressful, angry, just like that. They can benefit a lot. People with passion, passion to achieve something great, they'll benefit this. Whosoever has the thirst or hunger to realize the higher knowledge, attain brahmana vidya, this is there. This path is very promising actually. Often people come for peace of mind. It's okay, they come for peace of mind, but we offer something bigger than that. And how does somebody begin the journey on this path? We have trainers all around the globe. So you can call them up and say, I would like to begin this meditation. So either that person would come to your place or you go to that person's place. Or we have ashrams and meditation centers, you can visit them. If that is also not possible, download the app called HeartSap. HeartSap. Yes, A-W-P. Heartfulness app. And follow the steps. We walk them through at least three times so that they understand the system well.
First day Practice (19:31)
Three times in the same half hour first day, half hour second day, half hour third day. This first, second, third day need not be in consecutive days. But if they are together, it's better. So there is continuity. And then afterwards you begin practicing at home on your own. Now and then stay in touch with the trainer. And all these things are done by the volunteers. That means they don't charge you any money for this. It's absolutely free. And you might wonder why is it made free? My Guruji was of a firm belief that Brahma Vidya cannot be sold. And if you can buy Brahma Vidya, why do you need Brahma Vidya? Yes. So this wonderful place that you have built, sir, what is the story? I just spoke to a lady who said that this was completely barren five or six years ago. And today it's lush green, beautiful. How did you make this happen, sir? Well, I can't do achieve this alone. I have army of, as we say, the lovers of God. That means lovers of good things in life, nature included. We all came together, worked hard towards it. There was in the beginning no water at all here. No water. So we used to request our satsanghis that whenever you come to this place, please at least bring a gallon or two, three liters of water. Even if it is dirty water, bring it. And we used to ask them, adopt one tree. So you can look after it every time you come. Pour water to your tree. And that's how it began. We made sure that all water bodies were dug and deepened so monsoons would take care of it. And many trees planted then by little. And nature also cooperated very well.
Mediation Hall (21:50)
The first year itself it started raining, heavy. Second year, third year people saw the rain around on these villages, which they had never seen before. And now because of these trees and water bodies all around, the climate also has changed. It is four to five degrees lower than the rest of the surrounding. Right. It's a beautiful place to come and meditate. Very peaceful. And there is this enormous meditation hall that has been built. It's more of a stadium actually. So how many people can it accommodate, sir? Well, we can meditate at least a lakh, 80,000. I throw a lakh in the vigils comfortably. If you can squeeze, it can accommodate even more. But then I recommend no more than 80,000. And 40 can stay comfortably. Means overnight they can stay for as many nights as they like, up to 40,000. So when we have bigger gatherings, like people in few lakhs, I cut them into batches. Each batch will last for three days. Like if you wanted to attend such celebrations or gatherings, such songs. I would recommend that you stay here for three nights. Then we'll have break for two days and then another batch would come. And then break for two, three days and then another batch would come like that. So that people can move around in comfort. Right, sir. Let me ask a deep question. What's the purpose of life, sir? We're all working, moving towards various goals. What's the purpose of it all? What's behind this? I think everyone has a different answer. Doing our best in which our field we are in. That's one primary goal. Absolute goal would be, let me put it differently. Do you have children? Do you want your child to become like you or become better than you? Is God better than you or you're better than God? There's no question of it, sir. God is the best. So he would want his creation to be better than what he had created.
Purpose of Life (24:50)
Yes. So the Atman we call it his creation. Let's see if it came down from the source with x potency. And this x returns back as x or x divided by 2. And God will be happy. He will not be happy because he has returned back with less potency. Like you gave him some amount of money to your child, a million dollars. And he retains one million dollars for 50 years. After 50 years, Dad, I'm giving you one million back. You would say foolish fellow. You should have invested it and made it at least 100 times more. So God has given us some potency and said go forth and multiply. This is a traditional statement in Judaism and in Christianity. Go forth and multiply. That doesn't mean multiply as a race. Multiply means increase your potency and come back to me. So that is the purpose. Unfortunately, even Hinduism has misunderstood the whole concept. That your soul is pure. We agree with that. Soul, since it's absolutely pure, we need not add anything to it. If you don't add anything to it, how will you ever increase its potency? If you cannot change anything in it, you see, Shastra's talk about that soul is immutable, cannot be changed. If it cannot be changed, then how did it degrade itself to the present level? If it can be degraded, by the same statement, we can say it can be made more potent. So with that argument, I say that we all have to make our own soul highly potent. The difference between my soul and soul of Lord Krishna, for example, of Swami Vivekananda or Paramahansa or Lord Jesus or the Prophet Sahib or Mahavira or Buddha. I cannot say I am same as them. I have to reach those heights. So if they became more potent, I also have the opportunity, the possibility of attaining higher and higher levels of consciousness. So, to put it differently, answering your question, I would quote Swami Vivekananda and say, "The purpose of human life is very simple." He says, "It is to broaden the narrow bandwidth of consciousness." He says, "We have some level of consciousness. It is what we have. It is like a thin film of water, which is sandwiched between two giant oceans. One is super consciousness, one is subconsciousness, and in between we have this available awareness of consciousness. Through meditation, we can soar higher into states of super consciousness. And through a practice what we offer in Sahaj Maha in heartfulness way, we call cleaning, which means digging and removing the dirt. It deepens you. So it helps you dive deeper in your subconsciousness by removing unnecessary layers of ignorance that we have accumulated over lives. So when we soar higher in super conscious and dive deeper in subconscious, automatically this narrow band that we had widened, a broad band. Children can understand from ordinary to what we call digital to from 1G to 2G to 5G and who knows what next. Yes. So you mentioned consciousness. Consciousness is a huge mystery in science. We can't even define the term consciousness.
I'll help you with that. So what is consciousness? To me, simply put, consciousness is degree of awareness. But that means degree of unawareness also. Yes. What is the difference? It has consciousness also as per Hinduism. All about to come to that. I see. Trees have some level of consciousness. Animals have some level of consciousness. All human beings have some level of consciousness. And we just talked about all those big guys, Gang of saints, Ram Krishna, Pannamansa, Buddha, all these guys. They also have level of consciousness. Krishna Jimmara has his own level of consciousness. It's a huge spectrum of awareness and unawareness. Cannot respond. Highly, all saints will not respond. There is no need to. That's why they are still. And God is the ultimate one. Absolute stillness. Murders may happen. He won't react. This cannot react. This cannot react. He won't. He will not react. Chooses not to react. Chooses not to. Even choosing is a wrong word. He will just say, let it be. So what is God? How do we know God exists? Is there, I mean, is it about faith or is it about perception? From a scientific perspective, we look at the world in terms of pratikshpravan, observational evidence, empirical evidence. From that perspective, there is no God because you cannot observe, measure God, quantify God. You can't measure the soul. So how does one perceive God? Can you measure the wavelength? Ultimate wavelength. For example, you have this light, solar light. Within light also there are so many spectrums. Beyond certain wavelength you cannot measure. Below certain wavelength you cannot measure. But they are still there. They do not exist. They do not exist. Which are not measurable because there are no machines that can measure it.
Can we measure the soul? (32:40)
Our sense organs and our machines cannot measure that. But more than machines, our senses can perceive them. For example, you hear a sound. There are some sounds that goes beyond your auditory perception. But a cat would perceive it. Dogs would perceive it. Before you even understand what is going on, they just start barking. They are aware. I have seen in my village where I grew up as a child in Gujarat, whenever there was death to happen, and I have seen it so many times, people would also say and agree with me. Whenever there is death striking in a village to someone, dogs would start barking and they become so restless. I see. How do you see the spirit will go now? That's because we cannot feel or machines cannot measure. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Let me put it differently. Have you observed any child newborn being delivered into this world? Yes. Who did you see? My child. What happened to your wife then? She was screaming, shouting, crying perhaps. Yeah. She was a cesarean. Cesarean. So nothing to worry, right? As soon as baby is delivered, baby begins to cry. And crying is the symbol that something has come along. We call life force or atman or soul. It doesn't matter what name you give. There is something that comes along. If baby did not cry, then doctors would run frantically and tap the body, tilting the body upside down, stimulating the heart and breath. And still baby doesn't cry. Then everybody would cry. The family mother would cry. That soul is with us since birth. Life force is with us since birth. And it continues to remain with us till we kick the bucket. Yes. That whole span is we call life span. The giver of life, many people choose to give a name Prabhu, Iswal, Atman. It doesn't matter what we call as I was saying earlier. And a faith develops that this must be God. And there must be something that created this also. And we call that as Iswal again or Paramatman or Brahman. Now you will never understand Brahman. Never. It's like an ant trying to scale Himalayan heights. For this ant it may be possible also. But to see this infinity, even physical universe we cannot fathom. I was just yesterday thinking about that when Earth is moving around the sun and it has been going on since the creation of this universe. Would she be travelling on the same path in the space? There is no path. But would she be covering the same space? I don't think she would ever touch even one spot second time. She was in the same spot ever, twice. It's not. Because as the sun also is moving and the galaxy is moving and the galaxy is moving around something and that something is also moving around. Yes. And we just cannot comprehend this expanse of this universe. How can we even think of, even conceive the idea of God, who has created this entire universe? It's difficult. The created cannot guess the creator. Even in physics we are unable to even measure the simplest things. Heisenberg's principle. It's very well quoted in quantum science and also nowadays in spirituality. They say electron. How do you know electron is there? One thing. What is electron? Is it particle? It's a wave. Is it a wave? Right? But then it is this material, last thing that creates the material. Yes. Everything emerges from there. The speed you can measure, but then you cannot measure the, I mean locate the position. But if we had something which is more refined, subtler than the electron itself, why are we not able to measure the speed? Because anything that you bombard on electron to measure the speed, it changes the, it changes its path. It is more energetic perhaps. Who knows? It has to be subtler, softer. So soft that it doesn't change the position and the speed.
What has created the material universe? (38:47)
But there is nothing. We don't have any such thing. We are not aware of any such thing. So we cannot measure it. And God is the subtlest of all. If everything, everything in the material world is the play of electron and proton and play of all these vibrations of energies. What is it that supports its energy? We need not name it, but just for simple understanding we say it must be God. Is it a person? No. So what is it? It is something that supports the anti-renewers, a backbone of everything. Impersonal. If you make it personal, then you are in trouble. Then you make him positioned like fixed electron, but then you won't be able to see the speed with which it moves. Positioning means limiting and that defies the definition of God that God is infinite. God is everywhere. If he was everywhere and you say this is God, you have positioned him and you have contradicted yourself that he is everywhere. Yes. So this externalization is a big misfortune in the field of spirituality which is downgraded into religion. Religions worldwide externalize Gods. You may begin with that, but you have to go beyond all these things, beyond forms. Hinduism gives space for both. You may begin with Akkara, you may begin with the Murti. It is absolutely fine. There is room for it in Hinduism. But to go beyond into Nirakara, Parabrahma, we believe in that also. But unfortunately, people remain stuck. The person who is following the Raka and Parabrahma will say this temple in temples are foolish. People who are following temple worship, they are saying these guys are thinking that they are too advanced. So I think we should give freedom to all and say do what you have to, but keep advancing. Keep advancing.
Societal Questions And Cultural Differences
Is the world better or worse? (41:40)
And our own Dharma says, "Ishwar is antaryam in." Lord Krishna says that, "I dwell in every heart of human being and all animals as well." Then why are we looking for him outside? Is it not contradiction? Yes, definitely. We may start with like a stencil, C7, print with a stencil. It's okay in the beginning. When you go to college with your stencils, people laugh at you. And that's what is happening today. We are making statues and temples, one bigger than the other. Somebody says, "My house has a 10-foot statue of Lord Anu-Muan." Another fellow says, "I have a 150-long statue." Why such competition? "I have amplified my bhajan at so many herds." Another fellow says, "I play my lads because so much that the next village can hear it." And what does that mean? It's so noisy in your own village. People can study, people can sleep, people can meditate. So not only we have to worry about sound pollution, we have to worry about thought pollution. Thought pollution is the worst thing that gives birth to sound pollution, water pollution, air pollution. Thought pollution is the by-products of your thought pollution. If thoughts are regulated, then everything will become alright, I think. And that's why our yoga sastras emphasize heavily on meditation. That gives you discernment, ability to discern what is right, what is wrong. Even before you act, even before you think, or even before you ideate, your meditation will tell you to indulge with it or not. So you can prevent your mistakes before they can happen. These are all related, interrelated statements, you see, "Yoga hak, karmasu kaosalam." Because you are able to diffuse the problem before it occurs. You are vaccinating yourself before disease can start. So you have seen a lot of the world and you've lived a very long life, hopefully much, much longer. So has the world become a worse place in the past few decades compared to, let's say, the 1970s?
Biggest threats to human society today (44:33)
I would not say so. I would say, "The world is becoming more and more aware." Children today are more aware than our previous generations. They are more daring, courageous, fearless. What they need is direction, opportunity. So what are the big problems the world faces today, in your opinion? Religion. The number one problem today in the world is religion. And why is it a problem? Religion, whenever I identify myself with a religion, it evokes so much of emotion. And controlled emotions, I think, it always leads to chaos. And if you add all the wars and the disaster that it has created in the world, from the beginning of time, beginning of time means, ever since we started maintaining history, you calculate numbers of casualties, calamities, natural calamities versus calamities because of religious wars. Religious wars will, I think, lead the pack. And that is going, the unrest throughout the world today is because of religion. We live in oneness of God. Is it feasible? Because people are really adamant and really emotionally attached to whatever religion they follow. How does it bring about such a change?
Experiencing Godly presence (46:25)
It can change only when you, even you feel in your heart that the God that resides in me, the same entity that resides in the other person, when that sameness is recognized, then you will not fight. And what's the path that one must tread to gaining this realization? Get this awareness, experience. See, like the statements like, "Aham Brahma Asmi", is it the statement or the mantra or a declaration of a spiritual condition inside yourself? If you keep reciting, "I am Brahma Asmi" or "Anal Haq", you have a reputation of words that will not lead you to become Brahma. Only when you have arrived at that state and you experience yourself and say, "I feel that, I am that." It's the beginning. And next stage of your progress would be when you feel that, "What is in me? Aham Brahma Asmi. I am Brahma." You also begin to feel all are Brahma. Yes, right. And then another stage arrives at and you say, "All from Brahma." Yes. Then this is really experienced within, then the problems can dissolve. Right. From the beginning of history, from the beginning of when we started keeping historical records, has a time ever occurred when everybody was one? Everybody realized that we are all Brahma. Is it possible to practically make it happen? Well, there was a time, Vedic time, in Vedic times. And even pre-Vedic times, which I was talking to you about, 72 generations, even before Raja Dasarath. In Vedic times, there were no temples or external worships. External worship was the product of inner experience. When the sages and saints began to receive messages from higher world, higher dimensions, and they wrote it, whatever they received, they wrote it or expressed in their own words, they knew the best. They knew Sanskrit, so they expressed it in Sanskrit.
How to pray to God (49:37)
Yes. If they had known Farsi, they would have expressed it in Farsi. Yes, sure. Whatever they experienced, they transcribed it in words. Their experience was that God is everywhere. So they say God is in space, so they used to worship Akash also. They used to worship the universe because they used to feel the presence of that Prakriti or nature in them. They would worship trees, they would worship animals, they would worship other human beings. Anything and everything was becoming worshipable in those days. So there was no need of temples. Today, we begin to, we worship out of rituals. We bow our heads down to, let us say, a people tree, to a cow, to a river, to a mountain. We have reverence, but we don't feel the presence. They felt the presence, the receives of Vedic time. They felt their presence and their head bowed down. Yes. Our heads are bowing down, but we don't feel it. That's a big difference. We do it mechanically. We do it mechanically. Right. That was the period when there was so much of harmony and peace. So it's happened in the past. It had to happen and it can happen again. We have to keep our hopes alive. Yes. We have to keep trying at our own individual level. I cannot expect others to also feel Godly presence. If you even force it on someone, "Hey, why don't you also feel?" That's not the way. That is also a kind of a grosser approach. There is also some sort of violence. It is. It is insisting that you should also get converted to my way of meditation. That is also violence. It is violence. Yes. God would never want you to do that. So what are your plans for the future, for the mission? One heart at a time. We teach them meditation and through meditation, hopefully little by little, little by little, generation after generation, I think we'll be able to make some progress. And you're also focusing on other countries around the world. It's at 160 countries, right? We currently are present, but our majority of our seekers are here in India. It is a land of spirituality, and I think it will always remain that as a beckon of spirituality. You see, it's a never-ending evolutionary cycle. I have observed, even in such a beautiful system like Sri Ramchandar Mission's offering of heartfulness, some people who have started yesterday, they are at some level of awareness. Some people who started ten years back, they are at another level.
Differences of expression (53:39)
Some who will start ten years later, they will be having a different... So this different level of awareness means different level of understanding. And when these people with different level of understanding come together, there will always be some sort of turmoil. However peaceful it may be. There will be differences. Even in arguments, because this person understands from one level, this person understands from another level. And the levels don't match. Even when you are at the same height, I think, let's see, you are at the top of Everest. You are on the tip. Your wife is also there. Would you be standing on the same ground? But facing at least some different angles? Yes, definitely. What you see will be different. It will be different. The peak is such that only one can stay.
What sets India apart from other cultures (54:50)
One is standing here, one is standing here. Opposite directions. So Buddha, few thousand years back, Mohammed Sahib, twelve hundred years back, or thirteen hundred years back, Bhavira, Simes, I think, Pudaji, Krishna at some point. We at some level today, different times, different levels of consciousness, the opinions will be different of the same reality. Expressions will be different. Languages are different. Your conditioning at a community level is also different based on your country's geography. Yes. So differences of expression is what religions are all about. But if you deeply ponder over it, the essence is saying, essence of Christianity, essence of Judaism, essence of Islam, essence of Hinduism. It's all the same. It's a lot of food for thought. So what sets India apart from other cultures, other civilizations? I know that most of the people, many of the people who follow the path are in India. So is India a place that makes people more spiritually aware or inclined? Is there something special about India? Special thing about India is even in one house, a person can be following Buddhism, another can be following some worship of a Shankara or another fellow worshipping Vaishnava tradition. Another totally different Arya Samaj. Right? Now who is right, who is wrong? We don't argue. That's the beauty of this land. Very democratic. Accepting. We like your choice, that's all. Yes. We don't argue on that. Yes. And the same person would have gone through all of these in some point of life. He may have worshipped Krishna at certain times, he may have worshipped Shankara at some times. Yes. He would meditate at some point. He would also try, go to church and meditate there also for some time. So Hindu, I think, I enlarge Hindu culture. It's a very broad, generous culture. Yes. And this polytheistic approach is the beauty of this land. Yes. Polytheism means they believe in everything. Right. But they don't perceive it, unfortunately. They have to go a little bit deeper into one rather than going into many directions. It's like, you know, digging well in multiple locations.
Addressing World Problems And Technological Changes
The epidemic of depression (58:14)
Yes. You'll not find water. Right. Problem with monotheistic approach is Christianity, Judaism, Islam. They believe in one. Yes, right. Problem there is, no one is better than our religion. Yes. My religion is the best. Others are not good. That ego kills them, that arrogance destroys them. That becomes the barrier between them and God. Right. So today there is this epidemic of depression, mental illness. This is something that wasn't there earlier, like 20, 30 years ago. Why is this so rampant these days? And especially it's youngsters who are falling prey to this. What is the reason for this, sir? And what is the solution? Too many things to play around with. Right. Children in the house, from the very beginning, there's so much available. Small car, then blue car. They want yellow car, they want red car. Later on, something else starts. Availability of so many things. And if it's not there, they become sad, they become angry. I have never seen anger coming out in children during my time, when we grew up. These children, they don't get something and they lose their head. They scream for hours. They cry. They throw all kinds of tantrums. It starts very early, pazazioness. It starts very early. And we are the culprits, parents. Oh, I didn't have it, so my children soon have more than I had. So much of availability of things. And they are not able to adjust because of multi-farriers of things that are easily available. They cannot adjust. Rapidly changing society. Whenever there is a transformation happening rapidly, it becomes very difficult to adjust with the change. And this rapid change is another problem. To adjust with. You become unstable. There is more and more of more and more. And if you don't have that, you become angry and upset.
From desire if those desires are not fulfilled (01:01:19)
Yes. Lord Krishna's statement in the loka 58 of chapter 2, it's all about that. From desire, if those desires are not fulfilled, what happens? You become irritable. Krodha is produced after that. If a man remains angry for some time, he becomes fearful. From fear is born this lack of discrimination. Manas is lost. And when Manas is lost from a human being, his humanity is lost. And then many things will attack you, including anxiety. You can become societal because there are so many things I wanted and it's not happening. All losing hopes. Right, yes. So we are in this period of very rapid technological change, this artificial intelligence and all kinds of technologies that are coming up very rapidly. We are going through the fastest technological evolution that we have ever witnessed as a species. And that obviously is going to cause lots of problems for people. People can't adapt to the rapid change and all. So what advice would you give to people? How to cope with the changing world? As a species and as an individual, I would say. I'm giving a small example from family life. If my children learn things, I'm happier.
Practice adapting to rapid technological change (01:02:58)
If they don't learn, I become unhappy. New things in life they should always... But at the same time, my expectations are they should maintain some level of integrity. High standards in life. At the same time, they should also adapt to new situations. They cannot say that I have enough and I will not adapt to new technology and don't do anything or I will not start new businesses. So while maintaining your higher standards, by that I mean your inner invincibility. You have to maintain that stoic culture, stoic culture, that high discipline. And keep adapting to whatever changes are occurring outside. Nothing wrong with fast moving technologies. It's okay. It's alright. And we all have the adaptability. We have the ability to adapt. I cannot become critical and say artificial intelligence is bad. Artificial intelligence is bad only when I depend too much for everything. If I expect that artificial intelligence will improve my soul, improve my character, then you are giving yourself on some sort of a lease to be handled by someone else. So artificial intelligence is good if we can use it for our own benefit. Artificial intelligence, for example, if I say, "please cook for me half a dozen chapati." "Three guests are coming, this subji and that subji with this taste." It can prepare it. It can give so much of spare time to the rest of the family members. But what will you do with that spare time? Would you be more creative? If you can become more creative by taking advantage of AI who saved you time, then you are progressive. So my final question is, there are so many problems that the world is facing, climate change, pollution, deforestation. Are you overall optimistic about the future of humanity? Yes. If you look deeply at the United Nations sustainable achievement goals as disease, where is pollution free? Air, soil, water, good health, education to children, nourishment. I think 17, 18 STGs are there. When you study them, main root causes of all this, if you analyze this, soil pollution, why would they do it?
Real cause of all sorts of problems (Greed) (01:06:20)
Water pollution, because the affluence from the industries are thrown into it. They don't want to detox these chemicals. They don't want to detox because they want to save money. Again greed. Likewise anything and everything I would say. The root cause is greed. I want to possess more and more with less and less. Some countries are starving, some countries have so much greed here, poverty here, lack of generosity here. Everything that you see in SDGs are the product of one pollution, thought pollution. Right. In dialogue between Raja Janak and Sage Astavakra, it's a very profound dialogue. It's the times of Sita and Rama. Raja Janak asked a question, how can I attain liberation? How can I have higher knowledge? And how can I detach myself? How to develop detachment? So to this, Astavakra answers. Abundant desires, wishes like Visham, treat them like poison, all their desires and develop five fundamental things. And all those five fundamental things are applied today, all these SDG goals can be satisfied by United Nations. Number one is Arjav, sensuality. You have to be sincere. You want to do something, you have to be sincere about it.
The 5 Fundamental Things Would Save the World (01:09:00)
You have to be sincere. Just don't give words, false promises, politicians. This applies a lot to politicians. Indeed, sir. Santosh, if you are content, why would you bother anybody else? You are happy, content with yourself, anything over an extra you will share it with others.
Being Sincere Is Important, Santosh (01:09:49)
Absolutely. Yes. So things like that. Those major things, even if we apply one Arjav, I think a lot of problems can be solved. Be sincere about everything that you do in life. Be sincere enough to believe in God. And if you are sincere about believing in God, are you doing anything for it? If you are not doing anything towards the fulfillment of your belief, you are not sincere.
Thoughts On Belief
Belief Is An Empty Word. (01:10:21)
Yes, right. So belief is an empty word. And many people, they have been happy throughout their life. Oh, I believe in God. It's enough. It's alive. Right, sir. That itself should be a great takeaway for the viewers. Sir, thank you so much for being so generous with your time, sir. Thank you so much. That was the conversation. Hope you liked it. If you enjoyed this, please share this on WhatsApp and other media. Thank you very much. And I'll see you soon.