The Four Dos and Don'ts of Divorce | Warren Farrell | EP 187 | Transcription
Transcription for the video titled "The Four Dos and Don'ts of Divorce | Warren Farrell | EP 187".
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Introduction Of Warren Farrell By Jordan Peterson
Jordan Peterson introduces Warren Farrell. (00:00)
Why in the world should we assume that the topic of your book, the title of your book, refers to something that is real? And if it's real, why aren't we attending to it? Why is it important? Yeah, well, first of all, it's real because in all 56 of the largest developed nations, boys are falling behind girls in almost every single academic subject, including reading and writing, which are the two biggest predictors of success or failure, as you could probably imagine. And so, and boys who do badly in those subjects are much more likely to drop out of high school. Boys in general are much more likely to drop out of high school, especially in the United States. And boys who drop out of high school are more than 20% likely to be unemployed in their twenties. This is a statistic before COVID when the unemployment rate in the United States was 3.4% versus more than 20% for boys. Hello, everyone. I'm pleased to be talking today with Dr. Warren Farrell, who I spoke with three years ago, almost to the day about his previous book, "Why Men Earn More?" We're going to talk today about the boy crisis, which was published just after our last interview. So that's in 2018. Dr. Warren Farrell was chosen by the Financial Times as one of the world's top 100 thought leaders. His books have been published in more than 50 countries and in 19 different languages. They include the New York Times bestseller, "Why Men Are the Way They Are," which must be a very thick book, plus the international bestseller, "The Myth of Male Power." His most recent is "The Boy Crisis." We mentioned "Why Men Earn More" as well, which is a very good book. His most recent is "The Boy Crisis." As I said, 2018, co-authored with John Gray. "The Boy Crisis" was chosen as a finalist for the Forward Indies Award, which is the Independent Publishers Award. Dr. Farrell has been a pioneer in both the women's movement, elected three times to the board of the National Organization of Women in New York City, and the men's movement, called by GQ Magazine, the Martin Luther King of the men's movement. He conducts couples communications, workshops, nationwide.
Discussion On 'The Boy Crisis', Male Crisis, And Importance Of Parents In Child Development
Why we are not attending “The Boy Crisis" and delayed gratification. (02:30)
He's appeared on over a thousand TV shows. That's way too many TV shows. And has been interviewed by Oprah, Barbara Walters, Peter Jennings, Katie Couric, Larry King, Tucker Carlson, Regis Philbin, and Charlie Rose. He is frequently written for and being featured in the New York Times and other major publications worldwide. He has two daughters, lives with his wife in Mill Valley, California, and resides virtually at www.warinfarrel.com. As I said, we spoke three years ago. It was May 6, 2018. Just before Dr. Farrell's book, The Boy Crisis was published. We'll concentrate today on this book and associated topics. Hello, Warren. So good to see you. It is so good to see you more than normal. Jordan, for all the, you know, we've had more than the Boy Crisis. We've had the Jordan Peterson Crisis, obviously. Yeah. Very dull topic that. I don't know. It's just amazing to me that during this process of you going through what you went through, not only with yourself, but with Michaela, with Tammy, that you're not only alive, but that you're also, that you're also produced an extraordinary book as well in that period of time. It's just beyond me. No, thank you. Yeah. Well, it helped keep me afloat. So I've been reviewing the Boy Crisis in quite a bit of detail over the last few days. It's, it's something I haven't thought about for a while. Certainly I've thought about it since our last conversation. The world has twisted and turned in all sorts of strange ways since then. And I suppose this issue has been pushed this particular issue. The Boy Crisis, let's say, has been pushed to the back burner in a major way by all sorts of, well, cultural movements and by COVID. And it's not precisely on the radar. You mentioned to me just when we were discussing this issue, for example, at the beginning of our conversation today, before we started taping, that President Biden established a White House Gender Policy Council, which is supposed to focus on gender issues, but in your opinion, pretty much only focuses on women and girls and is also supposed to focus on race, but pretty much ignores black boys, which is perhaps the intersectional place to use a detestable phrase where the crisis is the most noticeable. So why in the world should we assume that the topic of your book, the title of your book refers to something that is real? And, and if it's real, why aren't we attending to it? Why is it important? Yeah, well, first of all, it's real because in all 56 of the largest developed nations, boys are falling behind girls in almost every single academic subject, including reading and writing, which are the two biggest predictors of success or failure, as you could probably imagine. And so, and, and boys who do badly in those subjects are much more likely to drop out of high school. Boys in general are much more likely to drop out of high school, especially in the United States. And boys who drop out of high school are more than 20% likely to be unemployed in their twenties. This is a statistic before COVID when the unemployment rate in the United States was 3.4% versus more than 20% for boys. And so that's just the academic part of it on the mental health part of it. When boys and girls are nine, they commit suicide about equally and very minimally between the ages of 10 and 14 boys commit suicide twice as often as girls. Between the ages of 15 and 19, they commit suicide four times as often as girls. Between the ages of 20 and 25, they commit suicide about five times as often as girls. And most people don't even know this, pay attention to this. But this is only the tip of the iceberg of the mental health issue. There's, you know, where boys are far more likely to die from drug overdoses, opioid overdoses. They're far more likely to be depressed if you measure depression in a way that includes male symptoms of depression, much more likely to enter into places that take care of people who are mentally, have mental problems and so on. And when boys, and so I started asking myself, you know, what causes all this? You know, and when I first submitted the boy crisis to the publisher and sort of in form of proposal, I outlined 10 causes and those causes included the environment and schools and so on. But I kept coming back to realizing that the hub cause of the boy crisis was dead deprivation, that the boy crisis resides where dads do not reside. And so that got me really thinking about that. So for example, boys who are raised by moms and dads together and go from an intact family to a school that has very few male teachers, there's not a huge impact, a little bit of an impact that's negative, but not much. But if they go from a female only home environment, have only a female role model, then they go to a school with almost no male teacher role models. They are much more subjected to much more vulnerable to being seduced by gangs as a pseudo family or trying to not having the postponed gratification that dads tend to bring to the family. And so therefore without that postponed gratification, they're more vulnerable to a drug dealer saying you can make money really easily by dealing drugs. You don't have to worry about getting the best grades in school and you'll prove everybody, you know, you'll drive around in a nice car. You'll be able to get the girls you can't get because you're, you know, you're sort of a loser at school, et cetera. So I just started looking at all these things. I saw that the sperm count of boys had dropped 50 percent, that the IQs of boys had dropped 15 percent. And just I started, you know, looking and wondering about, you know, two things. One is how amazed, how much evidence there was for the boy crisis. And the second was exactly the question you asked. Since it's so evident and we're so focused on girls and women's issues, why are we not even seeing the boys and men's issues that are coming up and how damaging it is to women to not have father involvement, for example, women that I had dated between my marriages were constantly talking about being overwhelmed. And so women are losers by fathers not being involved. Fathers feel a lack of purpose and they deal with the whole thing that you talk about in your first rule of, you know, not having not having some type of change of culture where there's a vitality to give them purpose. And so we're in a very challenging situation. I did come to understand what the cause of it is, but it really is depressing to see how ubiquitous that cause is. So why do you think if the crisis is of the magnitude that you suggest? You cite some statistics in the early part of your book. More men in the UK have died by suicide in the past year than all British soldiers in all wars since 1945. Suicide now takes more lives than war, murder and natural disasters around the world combined. That might not include COVID, I presume that statistic. Stealing more than 36 million years of healthy life and the rate of suicide is growing much faster for men than for women. You mentioned that boys IQ has dropped about 15 points since the 1980s and make a case in your book that that's related to fatherlessness. We'll get back into that. Boys scored lower than girls in the 63 largest developed nations in which the PISA, a set of international standard tests was given. Boys are 50% more likely than girls to fail to meet basic proficiency in any of the three core subjects of reading, math and science. By eighth grade in the US, 40% of girls are at least proficient in writing compared to one in five boys. One in five. Boys who perform as well as girls are graded less favorably. We did some research years ago showing that agreeable children get better grades than their IQ would predict. Girls are more agreeable than boys. What that means is if you're less agreeable and more likely to be troubled than because that is associated with being less agreeable, then you're graded more harshly than your pure cognitive ability would predict. That probably accounts for the gender difference or at least for part of it. Not that it particularly matters, but boys have gone from 61% of university degrees to 39% girls the reverse. Percent of boys who say they don't like schools gone up 70% since 1980. I imagine it was already pretty high in 1980. Boys are expelled from school three times as often in girls as girls. That's the same statistic basically as boys are more likely to be arrested for conduct disorder, juvenile delinquency men are much more likely to be imprisoned. It's the same pattern there. One in three children in the UK and the US grow up without a father. And you know our culture pushes the idea constantly that all families are of equal virtue, let's say. And I suppose that's justified in that it's self evident that of all the things that people strive to do well in their lives, they strive to raise their children, I would say more diligently than then then they might meet any other requirement or responsibility. And so it seems cruel to judge the quality of the family given the commitment that it takes, for example, to be a single parent. But I'm releasing a podcast this week with Richard Trumbly, who's perhaps the world's foremost authority on the development of aggression in children development and regulation.
Why we do not attest to “The Boy Crisis” and the disposable male crisis. (13:00)
And he, his data certainly indicates that having a single mother, especially a single mother with issues is a predictor of the maintenance of aggressive behavior throughout the lifespan, a major predictor. Now he associates that more with trouble on the maternal side, young mothers, young uneducated mothers, young uneducated mothers with psychiatric and other health difficulties. Who lack social support, hasn't concentrated so much on the fatherlessness end of it, but the upshot is the takeaway is the same. These are families that are not producing children who have the same probability of thriving. Let's say you said also Japan has increased its vocational education programs so that 23% of its high school graduates graduate study at vocational schools and they have a 99.6% employment rate. That's something we can talk about as well. So your book is peppered with, well, painful statistics, I would say. Why do you think we don't attend to this, Warren? I think historically and biologically men were programmed and really through animals, including insects right on through to human beings. We were programmed to be willing to die in order to get women's love. And so in every generation had its war and in each generation's war, we said some version of Uncle Sam needs you. And we pointed to the uncle who in the Marine uniform on the on the on the mantle. And we were so proud of him. He died in World War I or II. And the boy sees that the way he can get love and approval and respect, even though he's being criticized by this person or that person or in school or at home is he can he can he can be a soldier. And so we give we inspire boys to be disposable. And we and we and when and when somebody is likely to be lost. You don't develop as much emotional attachment to that person. And if you if you're if you're a way of surviving is for males to be willing to lose their life so we're not under Nazi rule, etc. You begin to develop a connection between caring about men largely to the degree that they are willing to protect women and die for women. And so you don't care about the people who are dying so much if you have a an incentive in there to if you have an incentive to have them be willing to die in order to protect you. And so, it's a disposable male hypothesis that would be the hypothesis on the evolutionary psychology front. I mean, one of the things I've noticed is that my, my critics let's say, like to parody my audience as well, angry, white and young and male let's say. But the thing that's interesting about that is that perhaps you could give me the benefit of the doubt and say that if that is my audience and my audience is certainly much broader than that and that wasn't who I was targeting let's say. But even if it was, well, is there something wrong with talking to those people who are alienated and angry and perhaps for some genuine reason. The answer seems to be the default answer seems to be they're so contemptible that anyone who even tries to help them is to be regarded with extreme suspicion. And it seems to me that that's in some manner of reflection of the phenomenon that you're discussing, which is a very, what would you say if it's, it's very deeply rooted and fundamental, at least from one perspective. So, you know, I was thinking today, maybe our culture set up so that the most esteemed people are highly successful men, but the least esteemed people are unsuccessful men. And so maybe that maybe that's the strange paradox is that men, in some sense, have it the best if they're occupying the pinnacle of achievement, but they have it the worst if they're at the bottom of the heap.
The role of anger and couples communication. (17:30)
And that seems right if you look at women's dating preferences, for example, compared to men, women disproportionately are disproportionately attracted to successful men and disproportionately likely even to rank men of average attainment as below average, whether it's attractiveness or or any of the other criteria by which such things might be judged. So, you know, the question is, if it is so deeply rooted. Well, one question is if it's so deeply rooted. What makes you think there's anything that we can do about it? I mean, you haven't had any luck, for example, convincing the White House over years to pay some attention to boys essentially, even though they're the problem, let's say, you might think that even from the perspective of prevention, there would be some, some attention paid in that direction, but this bias is so pervasive that it seems to even interfere with that. Absolutely. So, a few things, lots of really good things you brought up. So let me deal with the first thing on the anger issue. One of, I don't know if we discussed this before, Jordan, but I've been teaching couples communication workshops for 30 years, and just produced a 30, a Zoom course on that a few days ago. And one of the things that is fundamental to that course is that men and women, and this is gay couples as well and trans couples and even parents and children all complain about their partners or their parents or their child's anger. And one of the things that I work with them on is to understand that anger is vulnerabilities mask. And the moment you see your partner as angry, look for the vulnerability that created that anger that felt the fact that they felt rejected or the possibility that they felt rejected the possibility that they felt misunderstood, the possibility that they said what they feel their bother that bothers them over and over again, but it's been ignored and every time that they say that say what bothers them, there's a response to it that disconnect that cuts cuts them off and interrupts them before they finish their full feeling. They're not drawn out and the response that they get is an argument. And so they tend to not bring up issues that really concern them because it's only going to be met by an argument that will escalate the problem and so they end up walking on eggshells. Now, who does that men women both sexes do that. And it doesn't make any difference whether it's straight or gay couples they both do this is a complaint that I hear from literally everybody. And so when your audience is is criticized as being angry, I would just ask you know if you if you look at that anger as the vulnerability how is that audience not being heard. And the way you are serving that audience is to hear some to the degree that that audience is part of your audience is is is serving that audience by healing them by having them have a place where they feel heard as opposed to dismissed. When someone feels dismissed, they become depressed, they become they turn inward. An example of that is when men and fathers and mothers go through the family court system. Fathers are much less likely to feel heard and the family courts feel treated as equals. That's another reason why I wanted to talk to you before and today in my clinical practice I had men who were fine upstanding men who were absolutely ground into nothing by the family court system. I mean I pulled all the tricks I had out of my hat, one client in particular medical professional who whose life was completely destroyed by the family law system it was like watching a train wreck and slow motion to use a terrible cliche.
Criticisms from men on "traditional marriage" and the prejudice of the court system to men and custody battles. (21:30)
We tried every trick in the book to keep him afloat what he wanted was 50% access to his three kids and he was a really good father I went out with him a number of times with his kids and watched how he interacted with them and how he taught them and how he cared for them and went to his house and looked at how he set up their bedroom and he did this guy did everything right he was extremely high and conscientiousness so unsurprising. I know he had his driver's license taken away had his passport taken away he had his livelihood demolished by ill founded rumors by a spouse that was hell bent on his destruction and we even went so far as to have him pick up his kids when they made the switch in front of a really, really busy supermarket she would pull up behind him and in front of the doors of the supermarket the kids would come out she would stay in the car. The kids would come out and go into his truck and pull away so that everything that transpired between the two of them was in full public view all the time. And despite that she managed to get into his car a number of times but anyways he he he was just demolished and I've seen this and and you know I get criticized maybe maybe we can go into this a little bit. I get criticized for a couple of things by men regularly. One is I get criticized because I stand up for traditional marriage and there's always a proportion of men who write and they're usually men who've been demolished by the family court system who say look you should stop telling young men to adopt a permanent relationship get married because the family court system is so prejudiced against men that to sign a marriage contract if you sign it with the wrong person is you know tantamount to a well let's not call it a death warrant but but it's a very bad idea you know and my my response to that is well you're basically married if you live together for six months anyways and so I don't see how the marriage actually adds to that you know in terms of in terms of risk. But it's not like I don't understand that there's a point there and it's interesting because I do believe that the family court system I've looked at it I've been involved in it several times wasn't to my benefit I would say the men have the men who are objecting have a point and then I'm also suggesting to young men another point of criticism that you know they adopt traditional responsibilities to the degree that that's possible and that that's where they'll find meaning but you know some of your work makes me second guess that at least to some degree wondering if you just don't see an alternative I suppose that's really the issue is that what do we have we have our jobs we have our careers we have our loved ones we have our families that's life and if you don't have that well then you're a drift that's the purpose void that you talk about in this book but if the traditional pathways to meaning let's say are no longer reliable what's a guy to do let's say we really we really so to affirm what you're saying and put a piece of data to that when people are going through the family court system mothers and fathers are going through the family court system on the father is eight times as likely as the mother to commit suicide from the frustration obviously I'm not feeling able to connect to his children but what very few mothers and fathers understand is that you know dads have adopted in their traditional role sort of a father's cast 22 they learn to earn money to they learn to love their family by being away from the love of their family they often do things like they may drive a cab they may they may quit their passion of being an elementary school teacher becoming a superintendent or principal schools they hate administration but they end up earning more money because they want their children to do better than they had a chance to do in their life they want the children to go to a good school which means a good school district which means a more expensive home which means that if they were a musician or an actor or a writer or that elementary school teacher they have to give up that for the most part because they'll earn more doing something that they like less and so we have right which is something that which is part of the pay gap that's never really emphasized is that one of the ways you earn more and you outline that in I think a great book and why men earn more I think that is a great book you know you point out that you earn more for doing jobs that are less desirable intrinsically desirable in some sense I mean that's part of the equation at least their jobs are more dangerous they take you away from home more often etc and those are disproportionately male jobs I mean the guy that I saw who got demolished so badly you know his wife claimed to be the primary caregiver and the courts are tilted so that they favor the mother especially in the first three years of a child's life and I've had some sympathy for that perspective I think that a variety of reasons although I think I've I think I've rethought my stance and believe that 50/50 custody default is the appropriate default just like 50/50 default with regards to money or enduring the life of the marriage is the default and my client worked a lot to provide for his family and so and his wife stayed at home and was with the kids all the time as a consequence and because of that when they went to court she had the upper hand in the custody negotiation because the judge believed perhaps that it was in the best interest of the children that they continue with their primary caregiver and that's a very hard argument to push aside given the strength of the mother child bond especially in the first especially in the first year I mean maybe maybe the first year is exceptional perhaps it's not perhaps we have to move to 50/50 regardless but what do you think about that?
The four most detrimental things that children need in order to do their best. (28:00)
There's four one of the things that I talk about in the boy crisis is the four must-dos of after divorce and this is like I'm now putting huge amounts of research together into sort of four simple things but one the number one and most important is that the children have an equal amount by the way this is if you want the children to do almost as well as they would in an intact family not as well but almost as well Okay so this is a child's sense see that's something we should establish here too as a principal My sense is always marriages for children not for adults exactly they're the primary they're the primary target of rank ordered importance children first and then the adults marriages for children not for adults that's a very immature way of looking at the world if you think your marriage is for you You have a free choice when you have children to have the children and not have the children this like having a free choice to take the job or not take the job but once you take the job you take the responsibilities with it and so in court what I talk about I do a lot of expert witness work on this issue And in court what I explain is that we now for the first time in the last five or six years we now have really incontrovertable evidence that four things are really needed if we want the children to do the best to divorce Number one is that equal amount of time with mother and father the closer you get to 5050 even when the child is like a one year old or just born it is that is that leads to the greatest possibility of a positive outcome on so many measures that we'd have to spend almost half hour talking about those Well I'd like I would like to talk about that to some degree because it's it's somewhat counterintuitive so I think it's important to delve into that Absolutely and I'll be happy to do that. Okay. And then number two is that the father and mother live within about 20 minutes drive time from each other because when they don't oftentimes they become very resentful of the other parent Because they have to go to that other parents home and miss miss their soccer practice so therefore they don't get the skills and the teamwork and the continuity to be good on the soccer team or miss their best friends birthday party or whatever And so there's a tension when the father and mother live after divorce more than about 20 minutes to drive time from each other. Number third, number three is that the children cannot experience any badmouthing or negative body language from mom to her dad Because when the child looks in the mirror and let's say the child's a boy and hears that your father is irresponsible and your father's a liar and your father is this and that that boy is looking in the mirror and saying Well maybe I'm a narcissist like my dad. Well the boys young boys play dad and so whatever they think of his dad is going to be going to enter their space of fantasy And I mean what they play out in their fantasy play is their destiny. Yes. And so that me image of future masculinity. I mean I always think of Captain Hook when I think of that because Peter Pan stays Peter Pan because he doesn't want to be Captain Hook And it's a brilliant, it's brilliant mythologically that story because it's got it exactly right if you conceptualize the great father is power hungry tyrant, which is increasingly the way we conceptualize our entire society and we call it patriarchal Then why would you want to grow up to be that? Why do you want to be that adult? And so if the mother is modeling her opinion that that's what constitutes dad, she's also modeling her opinion that that's what constitutes future mature son Since he's going to be dad. Yes, exactly. And then that boy hearing that both let's say if he hears that from the mother by the way this is true father to mother also I mean, now the part of the father of the mother And so it's really damaging to the child because not only does the child is that child half the genes of the other parent, but also the child can't bring it up to either parent because it brings it up to the parent that made that complaint And it loses that the favoritism of that parent if it brings it up to the other parent that your dad said this or mom said this about you, that destabilizes the child's future even more So the child has a terrible secret all the time betrayal the child's in the state of betrayal all the time no matter what exactly and I've seen children used as weapons continually in exactly that manner. It's appalling. It's appalling And then the fourth thing that's very important is that the children that the parents rather are in couples communication counseling or relationship counseling, not just when there is an emergency When there's an emergency, there's everything has to be made as a quick decision. And there's a tendency to see the other parents worst intent. Whereas long term counseling allows the father and the mother to see to have time to hear the mother of father's best intent about what they're doing and why they're doing it.
The development advantages when both father and mother are involved and delayed gratification. (33:00)
Well, so at the bare minimum, that means that the couple gets together in an administrative sense to sort out the necessary details in the presence of a relatively, what would you say, interest free commitment free bias free third party, exactly a management ploy rather in some sense rather than a counseling ploy per se, or at least you could parse it out in those two ways. Obviously, once you have children with someone you're married to them permanently in some real sense. And so that has to be taken care of. And a lot of taking care of a marriage. I do make this point to some degree in in beyond order when I talk about making space for romance a fair bit of marriage is administrative detail and getting that down getting that right. I mean, that does allow you to see some goodwill on the part of your partner as well. Yes, absolutely. And you brought up a moment ago to go to the different development development advantages that happen when father and mother are both involved. And those developmental advantages include the father involvement. So after marriage or after divorce, father involvement, lack of father involvement is a single biggest predictor of suicide. It is one of the biggest predictors of a child not graduating from high school dropping out of school. It's a very big predictor of a child being having being aggressive but not assertive. And last time when we did our last interview together we talked about the whole rough housing dimension of things and I'm not going to go through that again because of the fact that people can go to that other interview and see that but there are about nine differences between dad style parenting and mom style parenting. And a lot of those differences moms are so good at say spotting a sons and daughters, you know, gifts like say you sweetie you sing so nicely or you're going to be a great actress or a musician or whatever you should try and do that and dads are likely to affirm that but not so, not so vociferously at first, but are more likely to say some version of a well you know if you want to be a gym, you know if you want to be in the Olympics. You've got to practice all the time and will yes will give you the some tutoring or will go out of our way to take you to gymnastics practice. But if you're not really focused on if you're focused on responding to tweets and and going to parties and doing other things, you're never going to become an Olympic gymnast so you have to make a trade off. And the dad is that is much more likely to hold and force the boundaries around that trade off and require the child to to focus and discipline on focus and have postponed gratification around what they say they want to do and give up support for the child that the child doesn't follow through with that and only has a dream that they're not willing to have the discipline to feel that's okay so there's a real hypothesis there, which I think is worth delving into because one question obviously is well why is it not good to be without a father. And is it not the case that someone else maybe two females for example could play the paternal role and obviously that's true to some degree if we could specify what the paternal role is.
The disagreeableness of fathers and examples of delayed gratification. (36:30)
But you make a very specific case which is quite an interesting one which is that its fathers primarily who are responsible for the instantiation of delay of gratification. Now we should point out that among psychologists who are leery of IQ as the best predictor of success in the long run, the vast majority of those psychologists whose opinion I do not agree with, by the way, is that the thing that predicts better than IQ is the capacity to delay gratification. And that seems to be associated with trait conscientiousness and trait conscientiousness which is dutifulness and industriousness and orderliness the ability to make and maintain verbal contracts. Conscientiousness is the best predictor of long term success outside of general cognitive ability. I would also say that in cultures where families are more likely to be intact. And so we could say Southeast Asian cultures for example, and point out the children from Southeast Asian cultures do disproportionately better in North America than children of North American parents. The reason for that seems twofold one is more correlational perhaps in that those families are much more likely to be intact and so to have fathers but the second is is that the advantage that is accrued to those children seems to be in the domain of conscientious striving. It's work ethic it's the ability to delay gratification and so if it is the case that farther involvement is a key predictor of the capacity to delay gratification. Then that's an absolutely crucial issue and and we need to know well is that true. And we also need to know if it's true why it's true. And perhaps it has something to do with the relative disagreeability of farther so women are more prone to negative emotion than men. And with our more empathic and and and compassionate and polite than men, men are more disagreeable and you disagreeableness is the best predictor by the way of criminal behavior from the personality perspective even though it's not a very good predictor. But if you're really really disagreeable. That's one of the things that can end that can land you in jail because you don't take other people into account you can be callous and cruel and unkind. But just because something has its pathologies in the extreme doesn't mean it's not necessary in moderation and disagreeable people are better at saying no and it's setting boundaries and at being cruel to be kind let's say well, sure you're good at that you want to do that but here's what it's going to take and I'm going to draw boundaries and I'm going to draw lines and you think that's fathers and what evidence do you have for that. Oh my goodness. Just for example, one of the things I'll talk about is the difference between boundaries setting and boundary enforcement and dads and moms will both set boundaries very similarly they'll both say you can't have your ice cream until you finish your piece. And children will test boundaries pretty much exactly the same way though, and this piece is possible for them to get there. Absolutely. And they balance on that edge and push because they want to find out exactly where that border is my son who's relatively disagreeable. Man, he pushed boundaries at every opportunity when he was between two and four it was really something to behold he was a force of nature in going right up to the line and pushing on it just to see what was going to happen, you know, and so, go ahead. Yeah, and then but the difference between moms and dads is not these boundary setting or the children's challenge, but rather the boundary enforcement the child will be able to say to mom some version of like, you know, I had tough time in school today really now, because I was tease why this boy and he's the best, most popular boy or the most popular girl in the school, usually would be the boy that would tease him. And you know, and so mom is saying to herself, you know, well, what am I going to do here. Am I going to be getting to a big argument over a few piece when he's depressed, that would be insensitive and stupid. So I'll tell you what sweetie, you know, you can have this many more piece and then you can have your ice cream. And then I will see, ah, negotiating is our girl will see negotiating is a possibility here. So, from a position of weakness. Yes, exactly. I will have half that many piece that mom, you know, set aside. And then mom is going again, you know, all right, now he at least tried, given the benefit of the doubt. Okay, you can have the ice cream now, whereas dad is much more likely to go. All right, we have a deal here sweetie I know you had a bad day in school, but you, but you need to finish the piece the deal is before you get your ice cream. Oh, daddy, you're so mean mommy doesn't do that to me she would mean, yeah, yeah. And dad goes, well, you know, you can, you can continue to complain but this is my rules now. And if you continue to complain, there'll be no more ice cream, there'll be no ice cream even as a possibility tomorrow night. Now we're forcing the child is getting forced to have to pay attention to doing what she or he needs to do finish the piece before she or he gets the ice cream what they want to have. Okay, so let me take what you said apart a little bit from a personality perspective. Okay, so I'm going to hit it from three perspectives. So the first is, I've always been entranced by the Disney movie Pinocchio and Pinocchio is about the development of an autonomous individual right someone who's free from having his strings pulled by others and who isn't a wooden head but someone who's alive and can think for himself and as Pinocchio develops he faces a number of temptations and one is to become an actor, which means to become a deceiver or a player of parts rather than the real thing. But another is to become a neurotic wreck who wants vacations. So he's tempted by Pleasure Island and the way the Fox and the cat tempt him is by convincing him that he's ill, convincing him to capitalize on that and convincing him that the respite for his illness is a vacation from his permanent vacation from his responsibility so the temptations are deceitful actor and neurotic victim. So it's a very perspicacious film, it's a remarkable film but in any case now let's take that apart a little bit so I'll first make an observation from my own marriage, my wife is no pushover and she's relatively low in agreeableness by female standards but what I observed in our relationship was that it was hard for her to discipline the children especially when they were very young and I think the reason for that was partly temperament, because I think the feminine temperament tilts towards compassion and nurturance, whereas the masculine temperament tilts more towards tough love. Yeah, yeah fine that's good thank you for filling in there. Yeah, yeah it's conditional, there's a conditional element to it and then judgmental element, which is a love by the way, but conditional approval as part of total love.
Teaching a child "no." (43:30)
Right, good clarification, absolutely right because the container is love. Yes, but that can mean delay of gratification right and there's a cruelty and delay of gratification even when you impose it on yourself. It's a it's a cruelty in the local sense because it causes distress. I mean right now my son and daughter are teaching their son who's only slightly over one. No, and I told them to how to do it so for example he sits at our table out in the backyard and he reaches behind and he's tearing the plants out of the green wall that's behind him. So that's a no and I said, I encourage them I said look take his hand, hold it firmly so that he can't move it say no hold him until he stops struggling to undertake his goal directed activity. So he can only cry as soon as he stops resisting let go and give him a pat. So you do that 20 times, then when you say no he'll cry and stop. And then 20 times after that he'll just stop he won't cry so 40 times. No, which is an amazing thing because then you can let him go free because whenever you say no he'll just stop and so you can facilitate his freedom instead of having to be a helicopter tyrant parent who I've seen many of who is one step behind their ambulatory two and a half year old, you know interfering with absolutely everything he does because he can't grasp a basic principle of socialization.
Examples of delayed gratification in fathers. (45:00)
In any case, no has some pain associated with it because otherwise it wouldn't produce tears and no is a very, very hard thing to learn and no is what the world teaches not just what people teach. In any case, back to my wife, she spent the first year bonding with the child and also learning how to respond essentially, especially in the first six months to his or her every whim, because a crying infant demands instant recourse and the crying infant is always right, especially if they're under six months of age. But then when the kid becomes ambulatory and starts to require discipline, the woman is required to switch from this primarily empathic role which is facilitated by hormonal transformation post pregnancy by the way from this primarily nurturing role to a role that is in some ways in the local environment, it's antithesis. It's very hard for women to do that. And so my observation has been that they need, they require someone else to bolster that element because it runs at counter purposes to what they're required to do in early infancy. And so, okay, so delay of gratification, we're going to focus on that. And an example illustrating what you're saying, and this is hard database, an example that I talked about in the boy crisis is the bedtime. So we know when we look at bedtime set by mothers and fathers is that moms will set bedtimes earlier than dads will. But the children end up when studied going to bed earlier when they're with the dad, then they do with the mom. And so why is that with the dad will be more likely to do is say some version of like, okay, bedtime is nine o'clock. And whatever, when you get all your chores done when you get yourself your brush your teeth, you change your clothes you've done your homework, etc. And I see your homework and it's done well, then any time that you have between when you're finished when when your sister and brother are both finished, your homework, etc. That time you have to play or do or ask me to do whatever I want, read your favorite story, etc. With mom, she's more likely to, and so the kids end up rushing to get through everything that they need to do that is postpone gratification in order to get what they want to have their story read to them some rough housing before bedtime. And, you know, something along those lines, and then with the understanding that they will then everything will be cut off at nine o'clock. The children with mom are more likely to, mom is well, is says you have bedtime is this time it's nine 30 let's say, and the children gets to be dying 30. And one of the boys or kids will say, you know, well I haven't done my homework, you know, knowing that mom will want the child to have done his or her homework, be with, rather than go to bed without having homework be done. And so the, so mom will say well alright you should have done your homework before, but we'll allow you a little bit more time for a set finish your homework off. So the boy is able to orbit girl is able to manipulate better more time than that nine 30 time, and say they open even say up up even later. What the dad makes clear to the child is that if if he or she does not if they use up all that time, and they haven't done up that done the homework and it's now nine o'clock your bedtime. Sorry, but you are, you will not, you'll just go to school and not have your homework done that's your responsibility to get that done by this point in time.
Personality traits in parenting. (49:00)
And so the, and so that's one of the sort of dynamics that happens that leads to children being more likely to be focused on doing what they need to do. And, and also children brought up by mothers are more likely to be ADHD if they're brought up predominantly by mothers 30% of children are ADHD that includes the average between boys and girls. Boys are obviously more likely to be ADHD. Whereas with fathers brought up predominantly by fathers, only 15% are likely to have ADHD, because you can see from those examples that the boy or the girl the children are required to focus on doing what they need to do, get that homework done get their teeth brush before they get what they want to have, and the same we talked last time about rough housing how the children were prevented from having more rough housing fun. If they push their sister or their brother out of the way, and they didn't consider their the needs of their brother and sister. Back back back to the, the personality differences so women are higher in negative emotion, and they're higher in trait agreeableness. And so the way to manipulate someone who's high negative emotion is to manifest negative emotion. And to say, here's a bunch of reasons why I'm not doing so well, and so I deserve a break. And that, that, so because of the sensitivity to negative emotion the fact of the negative emotion is more compelling, because it's more deeply felt and then the agreeableness means that there's a much higher probability of being felt sorry for, and you can see that in the positive light when you're dealing with infants because when they're in distress, the proper response is immediate gratification of their desires. But that's not a good long term strategy, which is I think likely why I don't exactly understand the relationship with lower agreeableness is certainly the reason for the emergence of conscientiousness, which is a cold virtue and which involves delay of gratification. Now men are not more conscientious than women. They're more industrious and industrious to some slight degree and less orderly and those two combined make conscientiousness. But the agreeableness differences definitely know it's quite pronounced. And so, you know, partly what you're arguing for from the perspective of a personality psychologist is the necessity for two parent families really on temperamental grounds on, and really on biological grounds. I mean, these things are mutable to some degree, but not easily. And, and the other thing that's quite interesting is that, and this is something everyone should really listen to is that they're anti mutable, given the way that our society is proceeding. So you might say, well, there are these personality differences between men and women, higher neuroticism in women. So that's proclivity to negative emotion and higher agreeableness. But if we made our societies equal, those personality differences would go away and then we wouldn't require bi-gendered parenting. But what's happened is that if you go to the Scandinavian countries where the attempts to equalize the social landscape have gone the furthest, and in some sense had the most success, there are notable exceptions. So if you rank order countries by the egalitarian nature of their social policies, now, and that doesn't require that any of them have perfectly egalitarian policies. It just requires that you admit that some cultures are more egalitarian than others in their attempts and their practices. And I think only a fool wouldn't put the Scandinavian countries at the top of that list. Then you'd say, well, what that should mean is that in Scandinavia, the personality differences between men and women are minimized. And in authoritarian countries, they're maximized. And exactly the reverse is what happens is if you iron out the wrinkles in the social landscape so that it's more egalitarian, men and women get more different with regards to their interests, people versus things. So women get more interested in people and less interested in things and less interested in the STEM fields, at least in partial consequence, science, technology, engineering and mathematics. And they get even more different than men in terms of their neuroticism and their agreeableness, not less. And so that argues against easy social amelioration of this necessity for by gender to parent households. Yes. Yes, the children that seem to do the best are ones that have their in intact families, or as I mentioned before, the children have about an equal amount of time with both parents, and that there is a checks and balance parenting so a child will come to the father and mother and say, can I climb the tree in the backyard, and mom will say, well, maybe in a few years, sweetie, but not right now. You're too young and you could really hurt yourself and that child will have the same thing with dad and the dad will be more likely to say, well, yes, I guess so, but be careful. And then if the mother finds out the child father and the mother will go, well, wait a minute, you know, you're not, you're playing one against the other here, kid. Good work, but no. Yes, but the, well, the kid will play one against the other, but one of the best responses to that is for the child to be able to see the mother and father negotiating right there. Right, absolutely. And saying, you know, well, yes, you can climb the tree, but you can't go this beyond this branch this high, and you can't go on these branches and dad, you need to be out there under the tree.
The zone of proximal development. (55:00)
So in case the child falls, that you know, the child will be cushioned by your fall and don't get preoccupied with the cell phone. In fact, maybe give me the cell phone while you're out there with with ginger or Mary under the tree. Right. So they see the negotiation between masculine and feminine taking place. Why do you think that's so important? And you say there's research supporting that specific proposition. It's a very specific proposition. So what's the research and most specific and metaphorical specifically, we now know that children climbing trees makes them worry about what risks are worth taking what risks are at that fires synapses that are outside of their normal synapse firing development, and their and the data that we have for that is that the is that the IQs of children doing risk taking behaviors like climbing trees, increase as they do that risk taking behavior, and they increase their cycle motor functioning. Okay, so there's this prop there's this concept that Russian developmental psychologist came up with the Gotski called the zone of proximal development and one of the things he noted was that I believe it was Vygotski who discovered this it might not have been but it's the same phenomenon so it doesn't really matter. So if you analyze the way that parents talk to children who are developing their language so infants who are still learning to speak. The adults don't speak to the infant in terms that the infant can understand precisely the adults speak to the infant slightly ahead of its developmental trajectory. And Vygotski called that the zone of proximal development which is the key zone to be in if you're going to learn so imagine, and I make much of this in my books that there's a domain that you've already mastered. And so that when you operate in that domain the things you want to happen happen. That's the domain of order. And then there's another domain where all hell breaks loose and you don't know what to do and that's the domain of chaos but there's an intermediary where you're expanding your zone of competence through exploration. And that's really where consciousness operates and that's where we learn. And so risk taking behavior isn't exactly risk taking behavior it's embedded in the zone of proximal development I'll give you an example so that's germane to your example. So when my kids were little, I bought this old wrecked wouldn't place that monkey bars and swings. It was dilapidated but I took it home and sanded it down and repainted it and you know gave it about five or six more years of life. And my daughter, who was about two and a half at the time, would go out there on that monkey bar and so it was a ladder going up about six feet which is a pretty decent ladder for for a little two and a half year old you know and so we were inclined to watch her. And she would stand on the first rung and then move her foot a quarter of the way up towards it and then half away up towards it and then three quarters of the way up towards it. And then she'd put her foot on the rung and then she do the same with her next foot staying in that zone of proximal development. Can I move a quarter of step can I move half a step can I move three quarters of a step. And we'd watch her do that and doing that she pinned all those movements together and mastered climbing up the monkey bar and it was much to our satisfaction to watch her because she was taking, she wasn't taking a risk exactly she was pushing herself out into the zone of proximal development and and engaging in this mastery behavior. So you could say in some sense, and I believe this to be the case that the masculine spirit encourages and facilitates the transformation so if the if the feminine is, is concentrating on who the child is now and what that child now needs, the masculine is concentrating on how that child can move to the next developmental stage and pushing that along is that is that a reasonable presumption. Yes, and be here's an example that also that the coordinates are connects perfectly with that. The data shows that dads are more likely, for example, to use words that the child does not yet understand or does not understand at that time. And the mom is oftentimes looking at saying, well, you know, why are you saying that, you know, the child doesn't understand what you mean. And the dad's conscious or unconscious sort of feeling is, I want to plant seeds and after the child hears this in different contexts. And so, being in this zone of proximal development, like, if I brought that into the conversation because you talked about risk taking and so what you could say is that as you push the boundaries of the zone of proximal development, you enter the domain of risk. And so then the question would be what personality elements are capable of tolerating the transformation of the zone of proximal development into the zone of risk. And the answer to that would be lower neuroticism and lower agreeableness, because lower neuroticism would mean you wouldn't worry as much. So the magnitude of the perceived risk would be less and lower agreeableness would mean, well, even if there is some risk, you don't care as much. It's like, it's okay. Now, it's not like you don't care about the risk exactly, although it's it is that in some felt sense. The reason for that is that, while there's another judgment, which is, well, the risk is worth taking, because there's more than one risk at play here there's the proximal risk that you engage in when you push yourself. But there's the distal risk that you engage in when you don't push yourself. Yes, you're right on target there now, and this is why so many of the differences between male and female style parenting are so important to understand and one of those that sort of connects to what you're saying is that the differences that moms and dads tend to get into are dads teasing children, which feels to many moms like often results in the child crying when the teasing first starts, but it begins to teach the child a whole series of skill sets. What's what tones of voice are teasing or playfulness is like rough housing, and has an abstraction of rough housing. Exactly, precisely. What I what I contact is being playful what I contacted serious. What body language what I'm exaggerating now. You get off the bed because if you don't get off the bed daddy will always be make it make life hard for you you know how bad daddy is. And the you know the child starts laughing. Maybe a while, maybe one time that this going like that is that the child goes oh my goodness is scared. And so then after a while the child learns that oh that's daddy having fun as us having fun and they begin to distinguish between. You get off the bed as fun versus make sure you get off the bed as you know something that has right well they also learned to distinguish between what's mean and what's funny.
The importance of parental dialogue and quality time. (01:02:30)
You know I mean when I was watching my children, especially with regards to their sibling rivalry which is likely to emerge in children who are less than three years apart in their birth order and sort of in proportion to the closeness of their of their birth. So if you want to minimize childhood sibling rivalry you space the children out three years we don't know what that does to their relationship across time but we know it minimizes sibling rivalry. In any case, I wanted them always to stay on the funny side of teasing because teasing can easily turn into torture. And so they had to learn these extremely fine gradations of humor and and and to do that they had to play on the edge. And the question is how necessary is it to have the capacity to allow your children to play on the edge and fathers have that by temperament more than mothers do. Now but you know you pointed out something really interesting. You didn't exactly make the claim that the father was necessary you made a more subtle claim which was that the dialogue between the father's higher risk tolerance and the mother's lower risk tolerance is necessary and that takes place that can take place within an intact marriage that's been broken apart as long as the couples commit to a long term communication strategy that a super long term supervised communication strategy. Yes, yes. So it's the dialogue maybe that's really the issue here it's the interplay between masculine and feminine. And that's the key thing rather than the presence of both is because you can imagine a man and a woman and a household who don't communicate ever about anything. And I can't imagine that that's going to be an optimal environment for a child despite the fact that both parents are nominally there. Yes, yes absolutely. The children do well when both parents are involved about equally. And that's because of a lot of subtle things here. One for example is hangout time, and particularly boys if you ask them like how is soccer today. The boy will say, okay. And, but with hangout time and no, not much more. Well what else happened what happened at soccer today nothing much. And then, but if the father has hangout time let's say in a divorce situation with the child. The child is likely maybe there. One is doing homework the other was doing their different type of work, and they end up in the kitchen together and they're looking through the thing and then the boy will say, you know, daddy, I don't get it. If you're playing soccer and you're doing really well, and I was goalie last week, and this week I wasn't goalie but I thought I did really well and the coach even said I did really well. But now he put he put in Jimmy for goalie goalie instead of me. What's that about. And that's when children with hangouts with hangout time both boys and girls tend to do much better than they do when they just are asked a quick question for a conversation for daughters hang out. They need time for the questions to bubble up. Of their own accord. Exactly or some little thing reminds them of something you know if you ask a child how are you doing oftentimes I'll say fine. But if you said you know if you ask them something specific, how did you like having the ice cream taken away from you by by somebody at school, then they'll have a response to that. So when something triggers something that is very specific the child will tend to sort of open up and on his or her own terms. And interestingly I said hang out time was very important for boys psychologically the some researchers at the University of California Irvine said it's a single greatest predictor of psychological security. And girls hang out time with dads and hang out time with moms and dads has a different dimension to it. The children know that if they say say a problem to mom, she's more likely to be reassuring. I'm sure that you know I'm sure that wanted you to do really well. He was probably just giving the other the other the other person a chance because in order for them to feel good about themselves like you did when you play goalie.
Gender Dynamics: Workplace, Earnings Gap And Tactics In Relationships
The developmental advantage of fathers teaching 'teasing.' (01:06:30)
Whereas the child is usually likely to know that the dad is more likely to say well you know what did you do that maybe was not so good as a goalie. What do you think you can do that's different with it with the with the coach next time. Did you ask the coach directly why she or he took you away from being goalie. And so the. That's more of a problem solving approach or a problem. And you think that's associated with a positive developmental consequence for IQ. I think it is. It's not that lower IQ fathers tend to get divorced more often by any chance is it. Well we do know that that mothers are well educated are far more likely about 90% of divorces come from mothers are initiated by the plaintiff is the mother. And when the others will educate and she has other sources of income of the source of education and security and she also knows. Obviously that in the family courts. She's far more likely to have the children and the father is far less likely you know she's more likely to have the right to the children. He's more likely to have to fight to the children. And so that there's all sorts of dynamics going on there. But I think the most important thing here to understand is that. Like we were talking a bit before about teasing. There are so many developmental. And it's a lot of the things that dads do. But I want to really make it clear that dads don't say to moms things like I'd like to rough house with the children because it will increase the children's empathy. I'd like to rough house with the children as well increase their social skills. I'd like to tease with the children because it will increase their social abilities to have to break God who can stand to be married to someone who did that. And the result of that is that you know moms can hear what dads don't say and one of the so one of the reasons why communication about what is and dads needs to take responsibility for reading about what there is that we do that differently and what the outcomes are of the things that we do differently so I've never heard of a father say to a mother, you know the teasing that I do with with with our daughter or son. You know when we go into when kids go into the workplace and they haven't learned how to be. They haven't learned teasing. They feel that teasing is sort of an insult. Right, they're touchy, they're touchy and they can't take a joke with a sense of humor. We have very explicit discussions about such things in my household. So, I mean, I wanted the kids to be inoculated against casual insult. You have to take that with a sense of humor or it just mounts I've seen people who can't respond to that initial testing, you know and it's partly what people do to see if you're socialized. You see, because people want to socialize with people who are about as socialized as them and so what they'll do first is throw out some teasing and see what happens and if it evokes a playful response, then they know that the person that they're dealing with can be relied on to play and has been reasonably socialized. You're hitting the nail right of the head. The commerce of masculinity is the trading of wit covered put downs. And men learn as they grow up that I think probably the reason that that happens is because men learn that if you can handle if you can handle criticism, you're not going to be successful. And if you're not going to be successful. You're also unpredictable because it means that if something small and upsetting comes along, you're going to get big and upset. And that isn't what you want. You don't want someone who's going to get upset about something small. It's too dangerous in a crisis. Absolutely. And so from a male point of view, from most men's point of view, the feeling is if you can't be teased, you can't be trusted. Right. Right. Exactly. You can't be really respected and here's the type of problems that that creates in the workplace. So if you're if you're dead talking to your to the mom about teasing children, help her see how this evolves into the workplace. So in the workplace, a girl, a woman oftentimes may get teased. She will interpret that teasing like, you know, did you see you have a new dress on? You did you get that to flirt with the boss? Or do you have, you know, you're dressed, you must have dressed in the dark last night. Something like that. That's something you say to a guy. They come back with you with some funny counter point like, you know, well, that would be typical for a short man to say. And the and the and the men with each other when they can tease each other like that and play with each other. That means that they're beginning to trust that man and move them into their into their league of people they can respect and trust. Whereas if the woman hears something like that comment, she might feel it's a it's a sense. It means that she's being discriminated against in the workplace. So she takes that perspective. It says that would be a particularly true. I suspect if she didn't have a lot of masculine presence in her life. Exactly. And you know that girls who don't have brothers are much more likely to be raped. I didn't know that that's interesting. And I do believe that. And because a lot of it and this does confirm a number of things that I've heard of people who are experts in that area. And that's very, very deeply said, and particularly what's what's reinforcing this you were talking about how things in today's culture sort of reinforces. So let's say this group, this woman is new to work and they're she's being tested out by being teased. And she feels really assaulted and she interprets the teasing is discrimination against her as opposed to interpreting the teasing as an attempt to include her to include her. Yeah, exactly. So she goes to HR. It's an invitation to play. It's an invitation to play. It's an invitation to be. If you're skilled at it, right? I mean, that's I mean, a tease can go too far and then it's insulting, but. But the really good tease is right on the edge, right? And then that's also it's also a compliment to the person who's designed to receive it because you're facing them with the proposition that they can tolerate a comment. They're sophisticated enough to know when a comment is right on the edge and they're resilient enough to tolerate it and respond in kind. So it's an it's a compliment of the highest order to push like that. It is so important that you said that that's exactly right. That's exactly what teasing does test for. And that's exactly what men who tease each other are testing for to see if the if the playfulness could be met with playfulness. It can be a bit with even a greater challenge that requires them to participate in the process. But institutionally today, we've taken part of that's crucial to IQ development. I do think that's interesting because I mean, that teasing banter is a form of of of what dynamic wit it's like a dance. I mean, some cultures have really perfected that you get there's subcultures in England, particularly where that's elevated to an art form. And you see that in places like Newfoundland and Canada as well and in Alberta as well I would say in the rural areas in particular. Absolutely. And so now what we've done is institutionalized this teasing as a problem so the woman upset that she's being discriminated against goes to HR and says, I was discriminated against what he said to me. Right, thus failing a test in a more profound way because one of the things you do when you're in elementary school and junior high school and high school for that matter. And then in the workplace is tease someone and see if they run off to find a figure of authority or whether they can deal with it themselves.
Men and women cohabiting in a workplace. (01:14:30)
Because you assume that if they have to run off and find a figure of authority that they're not mature enough to solve their own problems. And that's exactly right. And so what we so the woman reports it to HR and HR really is no longer HR really should be called H.E.R. because it focuses almost always a complaint by the woman about usually a man. Do you know what the stats are on proportion of workplace complaints that are brought forth by women compared to men. I know the OCR stats of the office civil rights stats about complaining is about I think it was a fellow named Joseph Eck who's done the research on that and I think he said it was like 19 to 19 complaints by women about men for H1 complaint by men about a woman. Right and that's funny because you know the men probably generate the grounds for complaints more often being more disagreeable and the women are more sensitive to the negative consequences being less emotionally stable more more neurotic. So it's that's a place where men and women don't feed back so well to one another. You know, and it's unfortunate but that that well I have wondered you know if men and women can and have it the same workplace over time. We don't know that I mean I've been called reprehensible for even bringing that up as an issue but it's not like we know. We haven't the data aren't in we've only been working together in some sense for 50 years. And there's plenty of evidence for sex segregation it seems to be the norm rather than the exception that you know once a gender sex starts to dominate a field that that dominance becomes more and more predominant until it becomes almost total. You see that with engineering you see it with nursing. And it's not like we're not going to have extreme cases but it certainly does happen. Well they're not as extreme as brick laying which is like all men, but women have you know women haven't moved into the brick laying domain so we don't know what would happen if they did. They won't but so we won't know but you know, the challenge here is really enormous because the in the sexual area is very rare that a woman is interested in dating somebody at work who is earning less than she is. And it's not doesn't have as high status and usually the great majority of women that I've seen that have that were single when they enter the workplace and then married somebody a significant percentage of them have married somebody in the workplace but the great majority of that significant percentage have married somebody at least at their level and usually above them. Yeah it's hypergamy right and characterizes women with regard to potential for generous earning essentially. Unsurprisingly I think it's an attempt to balance the economic scales because women take the brunt of pregnancy and the brunt of the first year of child rearing I would say as well. So, and they make themselves vulnerable as a consequence so they need to redress that inequality. And that's how they do it and but there are consequences to that that are very severe in the socio economic and the social spheres. And then when the woman, when a man above her does take interest in her and and it's explicit about it. You know it can either result in courtship or a law court. courtship of one form or the other. Yes, or and a law, yes, one courtship of one form or the other. And so it's a really it's it's and what the biggest problem with that's happened in the last 1520 years especially since hashtag me too, is that I have not yet spoken to a single corporate CEO, who has not said some version of the following to me. You know Warren I used to love mentoring women, but have a wife and I have children. There's no way shape or form that I will mentor a woman today. Right. There's the other way. Well it was increasingly insisted upon in my workplace at the university that if I ever had a female in the room with me that the door be open. I mean and as soon as that's the rule, you're you're done, you have to start rethinking everything. Can you travel with your graduate students. Can you be in the same hotel, etc, etc, etc. As soon as you have to start thinking about those things. That means the risk has become so great that you're much less likely to engage in such activity. And mentoring is a very intimate relationship. So it's it's. It is it it's oftentimes does. I mean many men are particularly inspired to mentor to a woman who's younger that that is attractive and many younger attractive women are increased there. They're caring about and their love for a man who is who is who they see as a result of his mentoring. Well, yeah well you know across cultures women prefer men who are about four years older. There's some variation and that actually is one of the things that is moderated in the Scandinavian culture so that age gap is less rather than more in the Scandinavian cultures. But that goes along with the genuine general tendency to to hypergamy which is preference for a mate who's at or above you in the social hierarchy. Yes. So are the socio economic hierarchy. It's really the social hierarchy though. Which create enormous problems in different cultures like in China. When we do analyses of the dating the most popular dating site in China. You see that women want a very high percentage of women I think it's in the 92 93% tile approximately of women want men who own homes and own cars. But of the people on the dating sites who are males only a very small percentage of them own homes and cars. Right well and we should also point out that women aren't actually going for the home or the car they're going for the ability to produce the home in the car. Of course. Right. They're using them as secondary markers for competent for competence essentially. But, and then they, you know you cited an interesting stat here too which which I thought was worth talking about. They on on who should pay the bill on the first date. 72% of women think that a man should pay the full bill on the first date. Now remember they've already selected this man and what that means is that he's likely to be at or above them in the socio economic hierarchy and perhaps slightly older so you know in some sense they can afford he can afford to pay better than she can. But in any case 82% of men think the same. And so men are playing the hypergamy game even more intensely than women are at least with regards to that particular statistic. So. And this gets into the psychology of the pay gap because many women feel okay about that because they feel like okay men earn more than I do for the same work. When when we and in fact that is not really accurate here is what is accurate. If fathers earn more than moms do the pay gap is not men women. The pay gap is dads versus moms. And when dads become dads, they're far more likely to give up the things that they love to do that pay less. And do the things that they like to do a lot less. You know quit that musician gig that paid much less and do something responsible quote unquote like selling product why. And that's also in line with the data that show that you know most most young men many many young men abuse alcohol. Most of them stop when around 27 but that's also when they get married. And so they stop engaging in primary gratification and that's another example of that delay of gratification as far as I'm concerned that ability or willingness to sacrifice. And it's also part of your whole your whole rule about the, you know it's important to have stable structures, but it's also important to have flexibility and structure is in part of it. You know it's so funny that we it's so rare that we can have a real conversation about this because let's say that the pay gap. Well, you know, it's certainly not obvious. But I think that the way that the pay gap is caused by female hypergamy. Right if men demanded of their dating partners that they earned more than they do. My guess is that there'd be a pay gap in favor of women. Because men are incentivized to earn more because if they don't that the consequences on the in the sexual market but it's not the sexual it's the intimate interpersonal market right to not be cynical about it because it's not all short term mating that people are motivated by quite the contrary. Well they're motivated to take the dangerous is more dangerous less desirable farther away from from home and family and interest for that matter jobs because the payoff is disproportionately large for men who do so. And you see that you know you see and it's exaggerated at the upper end of the distribution as well which is what you pointed out with regards to the dating sites. You know like 70% of men are rated as below the 50th percentile in attractiveness by women. And so not only are there rewards for earning more. There are disproportionate awards for men for earning more.
The differences of choices between men and women lead to men making more money. (01:24:00)
And that goes along with the proposition that we put forward at the beginning of this conversation I think that was recorded as well that you know the most admired people are men but the least admired people are men as well. And there's a lot more least admired men than there are most admired men and that's true in brutal force on the dating scene on the websites. Absolutely. And as I said part of the reason that this is sort of all justified is because you know after all men have privilege and you know and men are you know and the pay gap is really a reflection of the fact that you know men do less work and earn the same. Yes which is complete bloody nonsense that's just not true that stat there is a gap but the reason for the gap is very very complex and involves many factors including the ones we discussed here which you take apart so nicely in your book. Why men earn more. I think you have 13 reasons that men earn more you know that's quite a few reasons and privilege isn't one of them. It's actually 25 differences between the choices that men tend to make and the choices that women tend to make 25, 25 differences are things that do lead to men earning more money. But could you list a few of those now because it's such an interesting, it's such an interesting topic. Men are more likely to take hazardous jobs, they're more likely to take jobs like logging or trucking. They're more likely to take jobs that that require them to work weekends or evenings.
The father's Catch 22. (01:25:30)
And they're more likely to take jobs that that have very little people contact like being an engineer and but most men do like people contact, but many of the jobs with less people contact like being an engineer mathematician tend to pay less. So many men are more likely to, let's see, work a longer longer hours. So the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, when you when you hear somebody works full time, that only means that they were 35 hours a week or more not 40 hours a week was what you usually think of as full time. Well the average person who works 44 hours per week makes twice the money as somebody who works 35 hours a week. It's twice I see why remember one of your stats which was I think 10% more working hours is 20% more income. So that's a much more dramatic statistic 44 hours is twice as valuable as 35 hours. Yes, on it, on it. And men are much more likely to work that 44 hours or more per week. Right and that's not be there for their children as is exposed in family court. Exactly and that of course is very fascinating it's what I call the father's cash 22 that dad's learned to love the family by having to be away from the love of their family. So if you research center asked dads who were full time working dads. Would you prefer to remain full time working or if you had the option of leaving your job full time and being full time with the children, which would you prefer. 49% of dads said who worked full time so these are not sort of loser dads or dads not inclined to work. 49% of dads who worked full time said that they would prefer to be home with their children full time. And maybe work a little bit or not outside of the home. And and yet that off that question has never, it almost never even asked of dads usually with middle and upper middle class people are married and they have children. The mom generates three options option one is to work full time option to is to be full time with the children option three is to do some combination of both. And as you know they have three options to option one is to work full time option to is to work full time and option three is to work full time, or more accurately. If they're working class person to work two jobs. If they're more of a white color worker. They'll tend to sort of work more hours at the job that they're doing. And so that type of these types of differences are not seen and the easiest way to see these is that women who have never been married and never had children. They earn 117% of what men who have never been married and never had children earn. It's only when men have get married and have children that they begin to do what you were talking about before and start taking on a commitment, a new responsibility. Okay, so your claim your claim is no wonder you're so popular. Your claim is essentially that men don't earn more because of privilege they earn more because they take responsibility, not not that women don't I'm not saying that but I'm not saying that they're taking responsibility in a different way because they're focused on the children and maybe they sacrifice their career for that and maybe that's what they want to do but doesn't matter they're still doing it. But the reason that men earn more is because they're earning more for the people they love. Even yes, even politically liberal people who normally believe in minimal sex roles. When it comes to the children being born. The mothers are much more likely to sort of even if they're working full time remember we said full time to 35 hours a week. They're much more likely to go from maybe working 45 45 hours week before to doing a few things that are different. One is to working not only fewer hours, but finding a job that is closer to home so they can be more flexible. And we see this the best way I think to understand the difference in the pay gap is to look at what happens with women who own their own businesses versus men who own their own businesses. So take two groups that are quite equal they both have MBAs and they've, and so they're committed obviously to work. The Rochester Institute of Technology study both groups of men and women with both MBAs who own their own business. Women earned only 49% of what men earned. And so the assumption when they started this was, wow, women home their own business. That will be, you know, they don't have the discrimination of the discriminating male bosses. And so therefore they'll be valued more they'll probably earn as much or more than their male counterparts. And the answer was no. So the Rochester Institute of Technology then investigated that further. And they asked women and men, which is the most important values for you and owning your own business. 70 72% of the men said the most important values for me was greater income. Only 29% of women said it was greater income. The women wanted more time. They wanted time. They wanted stability. And they wanted safety also men were much less concerned about safety than women were which is a why, you know, all of your head. Why Uber drivers make more when they're men. Exh You might get a job as a garbage collector, you have to get up early in the morning. It's dirty it's hazardous. And yet a female who is has an art degree, a master's degree in art. They earn less than that garbage collector. And partially it's because you have people tend to need the garbage picked up more than they need a new piece of art. So these are so many of the 25 differences that are between men and women. But the good news about how did we get to an estate Warren where the given 25 differences is a lot of differences and it doesn't make for a very big difference in pay, by the way. Even the most radical proponents of the unequal pay theory are struggling to come up with a figure that exceeds 15%. So 25 differences amounting to 15% isn't that much of a difference. But, you know, if the data are so clear that it's fathers who are driving this and it's relatively self evident, I would say, if it was single guys that was driving this you could make a case that it was for selfish pleasure seeking purposes right and that would fit pretty nicely into the privilege narrative right power hungry greedy selfish shortsighted men with privilege make more money. It's like, well, wait a minute it's fathers Oh, so why are they doing that? And never married women who have never had children earn 117% of what never married men who have never had children earn never married women who have never had children. They are more likely to plan for their careers and they do earn more. And what's most astonishing is that never married women who have never had children have earned more than never married men who have never had children since the 1970s. And so it's just now it's 117% more. And so exactly what you said is true. It is not never married women with never who have never had children.
Why are fathers making more money? The importance of respect in relationships. (01:33:30)
They tend to focus on their careers where it's never married men who have never had children. They're much more likely to be able to do something like music or art. And gay men historically have often been very successful in art because they've been usually never married men who have never had children and they've been able to afford to do things that were less likely and dependable to produce money. Oh, I've never heard that explanation before that's that's that's quite an explanation. So, so let's delve into that a little bit more deeply the time and money issue so when women rank order their preferences when they have options so these are the middle class upper middle class women you talked about, they're going to go for more time. And I presume that they want more time to spend that with their kids. That's been my observation. That's the number one thing. And men are making more money instead, but it's fathers that are making more money so they're making more money for what reason is it like exactly is it for their kids is it for their wife and kids is it so that their wife maintains her attractive and her attraction to the man because that's a that's a big issue that no one ever talks about right I mean, within marriages. I've seen this many times within marriages if the male takes a status hit. He also takes a attractiveness hit and it's a severe hit. I've seen this many many times and no one will ever talk about it but it's definitely the case. Here's the best way to understand that bridge. The man takes a status hit. He starts losing respect for himself his wife starts losing a little bit of respect for him wondering whether or not that this is going to result in a job down the line or whether some promise or that he has is going to manifest. Yeah, if she's reading the man he thought she was she thought he was. He feels that less respect and a woman is and I think every woman will agree with this. It's almost impossible for a woman to love a man she doesn't respect. There is. I think it's not the opposite is true too but maybe the grounds for respect differ. The grounds for respect differ and also a man is more flexibility with a man on the respect issue there may not be more flexibility in terms of first falling in love on the beauty issue women have their burden that they have to that they have to live up to as well. But the but on the respect issue. It's very challenging for if a woman begins to lose respect. She begins to lose love and men sense this and therefore they oftentimes brag or boast or or you know overstate their potential in order to be able to make themselves attractive and we see this in so many levels and the lowest lane level. She had no interest in Clark Kent, but she fell in love with Superman. And once she fell in love with Superman she wanted Superman to be able to cry and express emotions, but the man who did cry and express emotions and feelings and sensitive Clark Kent she has zero interest in women are oftentimes say I'm opposed to war, but look at the she's much more likely to fall in love with the officer and a gentleman, then she is the private in the pacifist and you know, and they we talk about this even in high school most everybody's gone to high school and most high schools have football games. And the and the women are the cheerleaders go first and tend do it again for the guy that scores the touchdown either by throwing the pass or catching the pass. And if the guy feels like it's too dangerous for him to play football and he leaves the football team. It's very rare that the that the cheerleader says you know, I noticed how well how good you're listening skills were when you're in the huddle and you know, a warm and tender you are I want to continue cheering for you. No, she tends to cheer for his replaceable part. Another number seven risking his life with a concussion or a spinal cord injury. No, this is none. This is non trivial behavior. I mean, because you look at the the football team I've been writing about that recently the football example is particularly interesting especially because it's such a trope in American, especially in American culture. Everybody knows the story, right. But what's so interesting too is the men will on the team will elevate their best player to the highest position of status.
The competitiveness around men and women and the fear of rejection. (01:38:00)
Despite the fact that they all take a hit in terms of sexual attractiveness by doing so. I mean, maybe, you know, being on a winning team elevates a rising tide. That's all boats. Well, definitely, but, but it's still the case that they'll take a hit. That's what have hit within the confines of the team to elect the man to the position where he's most likely to receive the favors of attraction from the most valuable, the most desired women. Yes, exactly. So, I mean, trying to puzzle out the role of sexual selection thinking that through because men men select the women that men select the men that women select. And it's very interesting to watch that happen. And yeah, absolutely. And you'll see this, you know, both sexes figure out very carefully. We people say well men are more competitive than women. That's not really true. Both sexes are very competitive for getting having the goodies that lead them to be have the greatest amount of choice. So women will compete with other women about how they dress what their dresses look like. And she's at a party and she's interested in one or two of the guys at that party and a really attractive woman comes through the door. She will assess what her chances are and what, you know, how she should position herself to make sure she gets the contact with the man that she really wants to make contact and the men will do the same type of thing around, you know, the things that they feel will lead a woman to be attracted to them. Well, this also makes it very, it's very difficult for men to figure out. This is another reason why I question the long term viability of not not that I truly question it but these questions arise in my mind the long term viability of mixed sex workplaces. The rules for competing with other men are pretty clear. The rules for competing with women are not clear at all. Yes. Because if you're a loser, you're still a loser. But if you're a winner, you're just so easily a bully. So it isn't obvious what, what, how men can negotiate that? Well, they have to negotiate it through negotiation. That's the only possible outcome. But it definitely makes things much, much more complex. And it's also, it's complex at least in part because as you just pointed out, within the sexes, the competition is about different things. So, or sorry, between the sexes. No, no, within the sexes, the competition is about different things. So when a woman competes with a status with a man for status, she's competing for male status, not female status. And so what to make of that? Well, why that would be rewarding to her isn't that obvious. And I think that's part of the reason why so many women bail out of high pressure situations, jobs, when they hit their 30s. I mean, part of it is that they would rather be with their family and for obvious reasons. But the other unspoken elephant in the room is always, well, why would it be particularly rewarding for a woman to attain status in a masculine hierarchy? What benefit does that confer on her? Well, more income, that's one of them. But that confers no attractiveness advantage, whereas for men, it accrues a tremendous attractiveness advantage. It's definitely disproportionate male versus female. I would say though, that if a woman is, if a man has a choice between two women and they're both equally attractive and their personalities are pretty much the same, et cetera. And one is more successful than the other. The man is likely to be more attracted to the more successful women. But he's also likely to be afraid of rejection. Right. That's definitely definitely definitely feel that that more successful woman will have more options. She will have more options. She will have more options. And she'll have higher demands as well because she's going to want to make. That's the real issue is that's where the rejection issue comes in. It's not even necessarily that she has more options. It's that because she's more successful, her criteria for what constitutes acceptable are going to be elevated. They may even be elevated to the point of impossibility for her. Exactly. And the real fear that the man has is the fear of being rejected. Yes, definitely. And I think that that well, I've made light of that by teasing my class, my students, you know, I said, well, what's the what's the joke? Well, you're, you're perfectly suitable as a companion, but in no way should your genetic material be allowed to propagate itself into the next generation. Right. That's, that's the core of rejection. And it's no, it's, it's, it cuts to the bone. And it isn't obvious that that that's sufficiently understood how terrified men are of female rejection. Well, that's part of the turning to pornography, I would say. And the advantage of dating sites like Tinder, because of the rejection is taken out of the game, essentially, or it's hidden masked. Tinder is a, is a revolutionary technology because it alters the reward structure, reward and punishment structure and dating. I mean, it's a, it's incendiary and named properly. Pornography is basically access to a variety of attractive women without fear of rejection at a price you can afford. And right. And with, with the, with the commensurate responsibility. No, except to yourself. Right. But that's easily for gone in the moment. And the challenge of it is that the more, so boys who are usually doing less young men who are doing less well in school, who are not the, who are not the football players that are getting the 15 different women coming up to them and risking rejection. Or not the student body presidents who are not standing out in one way or the other, who are not getting great grades, not part of the honor society, etc. The non stand out men, the ones that are oftentimes a dad deprived that have minimal postpone gratification and so on. And they tend to do badly in school or drop out of school. And they tend to not date losers, they tend to date winners. And, and they end up in the unemployed. And what women are looking for, forgot, and, and much more likely to be in their families live with their families. 66% more. Oh, yes, that's another statistic. Young men between 25 and 31 or 66% more likely than young women to be living with their parents. Yes. And more young men are living with a parent than with a partner. Yes, and they, and you don't find women looking in there, looking for men that are living in their parents basement. We're looking for no well that's just a joke, which is why you, you know, you could insert it there as a cliche everyone understands exactly what that means. It means failure to launch. It means Peter Pan. Right. It's a joke. And those women are therefore more like those guys rather, are much more likely to turn to pornography because they're, they sense they're being rejected by women. And then they turn to this beautiful woman that they can be turned on by the challenge with pornography is that the more you get into it, the more you tend to be stimulated by more and more risky things, and more and more salacious things or, you know, or things that are Yeah, well that's because novelty enhances enhances pleasure.
Solutions And Suggestions: Addressing Gender Issues And Introduction Of Father Warrior Program
Robert Crum's bird-headed woman. (01:45:30)
So that's the addictive element of it. Precisely. And then the female who is interested in that guy, and does come over to, you know, to be with him physically. She often feels like this guy is like, you know, more interested in something that happened to the pornographic things that he's been watching. She feels like an object like, and because she is being treated like an object. Well, and also those are the men who aren't going to be particularly sophisticated in their, their treatment of women because how can they be they have no experience. Precisely. And so the pornography ends up haunting them on multiple levels and leads them to often turn back to pornography to avoid continuing rejection and only convinces them that a real life woman is that somebody that he would fail. And one level or another with. And so it's a really. Never seen Robert Crumb's representations of birdheaded women. No, no, no, Robert Crumb's an underground cartoonist and he was the feature of a documentary, which you should you and everybody else who's listening to this should definitely watch. It's absolutely it's the best documentary I've ever seen about anything ever. It's and he drew draws these women there. He was a loser in high school by his own admission by every single category you could possibly generate. And so it's a study in loser psychology, but it's really complex because he was a loser who is extremely intelligent and unbelievably creative and who had two brothers who were probably more intelligent, more creative than him, although also more psychopathological. And then he became successful. He was one of the establishes of underground cartooning back in the 1960s and and and and spawned arguably even graphic novel. You know, I mean, he's a major player in that in that niche and the documentary is a brilliant analysis of the relationship between failure and success and sexual failure and sexual success because in one memorable scene he talks about. And he drew this card when he was a high school kid of a heart being ripped apart when he got rejected by this girl that that or by all girls he said he was beneath contempt he could he wasn't even in the category of comprehensible dating partner right he was outside the game entirely. So he's rejected by the feminine as such. He draws these pictures of birdheaded women with teeth, you know, and they're powerful big thighs big, big, big rear end. Like powerful physically powerful intimidating women like mothers draws sometimes these characters of little tiny men climbing up the legs of these huge tree like women, but they're very aggressive and and and and domineering and the reason for that at least in part is because every woman he ever approached was rejecting an aggressive in the extreme treated him with nothing but contempt and then he says in an unbelievably memorable piece of the documentary. That all changed when I got successful and you can just hear the resentment and the bitterness in his voice even though it did change and he wasn't that old when he became successful. He was in his mid 20s, you know, plenty of time to be on the outs completely and to experience life at the bottom of the male dominance hierarchy and even farther down the female dominance hierarchy let's say in terms of desirable men. It's a it's called crumb the documentary I would highly recommend it and it's it's absolutely brilliant study and and he had, well he had an authoritarian father and indulgent mother and she plays a key role in the documentary and it's it's awful, it's it's awful it's a it's a study in Freudian psychopathology that's deep, well beyond belief I've seen it like 40 times showing it to my classes and walking through it clip my clip. But, but anyways it's a study you don't see the world from the perspective of down and out male loser. You know there are subcultures that that sort of exist there but this is the this is the only examination of that place in the world I've ever seen that I thought really really nailed it.
In light of this information, what do we do? (01:50:00)
That the documentaries was a friend of the family so he and Charles brothers one of them ended up a sexual offender who lived on the streets of San Francisco and the other committed suicide by drinking furniture polish when he was like 55. After being bullied terribly in high school and living in his mother's basement essentially for his entire life. Oh awful awful but you know you watch the documentary it's not it's not like people really. There's you generate some compassion for the people in the documentary and what they've gone through but I wouldn't say that compassion is what's primarily elicited by the documentary and that goes back to this discussion we had right at the beginning about. You know what kind of empathy we have for the men who aren't making it and the answer seems to be very very little. Let's go to social policy with that we might ask okay in light of this what do we do and I would say this is what I've recommended I've recommended to young men that they take that these are the facts on the ground and they're not going to change. And that if you're being rejected chronically by women or if you're terrified out of your mind about that and perhaps rightly so you should take a good hard look at yourself and see what it is that you have to offer and so are you as educated as you could be are you working. You know are you looking for a job at least are you trying to get out of your parents house are you taking the steps necessary to become gainfully employed productive generous and attractive. And you know that tangles us back up with something we also talked about in the beginning which is the criticisms that have been directed my way by men which is well you're asking men to live up to a stereotype that essentially undermines and devalues the vast majority of them. You're part of the problem not part of the solution and your emphasis on responsible marriage given the state of current family law is nothing short of reprehensible and so you know my approach is do what you can at the individual level to put yourself in the game. But there's, there's much more to the story than not. Absolutely. This is really complex because the good news is, is a lot you can do to choose a woman who is the right woman. And so for example, looking at when you go both both go out to dinner. Is she is she open to paying is she if she isn't paying that she did she cook a dinner for you the next time around. How does she treat the waiter. Somebody that can't do her any any good. Ask her about her former relationships. How they broke how they broke up. And who was at fault was that is there any accountability and responsibility on her part. And so that's so choosing the right woman is probably. So what are you looking for there you're looking for generosity. You're looking for kindness down the hierarchy. Right. So that's how does she treat people who are social inferiors so to speak at least in that context like waiters. And then with regards to previous relationships. Is she capable of some self analysis or is it always the guys fault that reminds me of that Atlantic monthly article.
Dr. Thornhill and biological elements for attraction. (01:53:30)
One of them. I'm a first unfortunate can't remember who wrote it, but was this woman in her late 40s detailing out all the high quality men that she had rejected many, many, many men by her own. Account and during the entire article, there wasn't any recognition whatsoever of any time when it might have been her. It was like, I read these 40 men didn't live up to my standards. It's like, well, after the fifth one, didn't you start thinking maybe the problem was on the other side of the dating table. But the answer was obviously no, and she was obviously still single. So, but so what are you looking for there exactly and why did you, why did you bring that up at that point. Well, because the one of the ways that you can be involved in the game of marriage in a way that is positive is by making the choice of the woman differently than what we tend to do. We many men look at a woman, she's beautiful, and our desire to be sexual with her leads us to sort of, okay, we'll pay for dinner. We'll promise this will go, we'll go here, we'll go there. And we should point out too. I just want to point out something I talked to Randy Thornhill recently, one of the world's preeminent biologists and before we get to thinking that this sexual attractiveness is nothing more than mere shallow mindedness and impulsive gratification because all the cues of sexual attractiveness are tightly associated with physical health and fecundity, which is the ability to procreate. And so even if men are blinded by beauty, which I do believe is true enough, there are reasons for that at the deepest possible level still have to do with the desire to continue the human species. So it's shallow in one sense, but not in another but your point is there are other markers that are characterological that are more subtle that need to be taken into account. Yes, both sexes have very huge reproductive draws I mean, every from an insect right on up through human beings, women tend to procreate and have children with it with the alpha male. A good example of this is Buck elks and among Buck elks, the females 85% of them will have reproduced with the with the male that has the biggest rack. But then, but what it takes to get that biggest rack is an exhaustion of 30% of the minerals nutrients and calcium in the Buck elk. And then the second that he reproduces if he doesn't get rid of his rack immediately, he's likely to die before winter sets in and he's able to repunish the nutrients and the minerals and so on. And so his his rack was very productive for being able to procreate, it was very productive for being able to attract the female, but it was also his weakness that is, and that's very symbolic of men that means we weaknesses are facade of strength, because it was we could use that rack, or what they not me but the Buck elks could use that rack to, you know, to get rid of other predators or people that were the female didn't want to protect the female when she was creating the child, and so on. But once, but he was also being used for being part of the next generations benefit of producing the next generations machine. And as you said, when we, you know, once we have children, we really live for the next generation. And so now the next question becomes, as humans, are we, are do we want to create more options for ourselves. And so, and are we at a point now where survival is mastered enough in the middle and upper middle class. That we have them, then we are chosen nearly for our success. And I think the best explanation of that comes in Japan, where the millennials in Japan have a game called koroshi and of course koroshi means death at the desk or death from over work. And the game each person has a little koroshi figure, and they compete to get to the top of the ladder it might be the political ladder by the economic ladder might be the religious ladder, and as they compete to get to the top of the ladder, the one who gets to the top of the ladder first commits suicide, not in real life, but in the game. And the point that the Japanese millennials are communicating with each other is that the, that what we did to become that successful man, who was who was the most attracted, who was the most able able to be eligible for sex and for love, is we unbecame a human doing climbing to the top of the ladder. And we, I'm sorry, we unbecame a human being. We didn't even think of ourselves as a human being. That's why we're committing suicide. We have just just by competing to be at the top of the ladder. We've worried about what position we wanted, how to working more hours, pleasing the boss, pleasing the corporation, not selling something we wanted or doing something we wanted. And we've lost, we never even considered ourselves as a human being. And so now we Japanese millennials are going to start looking at the loss of ourselves as human doing the loss of ourselves rather as human beings. And that is, and that's the, in my opinion, the where we need to consider going that as we have children, there's this balancing act of helping our children see the value of being that artists that painter that's doing what you love to do combined with, is it creating enough income to be responsible to your family to do that. And, and, and yes, it will lose you some women. But if you're developing emotional skills and emotional intelligence, that may not attract as many women as the football player that risk his life and his spinal cord injury, but it may attract the type of woman you want. And for me between marriages when I would go out with women, they would, you know, I would share with them what I did. But part of that was sort of redefining equality for them. And it was not offering to pay for the bill, the whole bill in the first date. It was talking to them about the options like I can pay on the first date and maybe you can do something like cook dinner for me on the second date, type of thing. But I'll tell you, many, many times I feared, not many times I feared, I know a few times that I said something like that, that I knew there was going to be no sex that evening, whereas otherwise it probably would have been.
What we can do to help, and the issues faced to implement such actions. (02:00:30)
So, you know, it's a, it's a risk that you take inside of yourself. But for me what I wanted to select for was a woman who wanted me more for who I was, and less for what status I had or what predictable status I had. Well, what do you think, what do you think about the advice that I advice. I don't really think I give advice exactly I'm trying to explore ideas and that exploration has certain consequences but certainly, you know, I do. And I think that is my role as a psychologist I do, you know, encourage the people who are reading me to do what they can with what they have to the best of their ability and I don't see that we have a truly viable alternative to essentially classic goals. I know they're under pressure for all sorts of different reasons, including the ones that you've outlined but, but, you know, in some sense it's, it's the only game in town. Now, what can mean there are things we can do though, you talked about the Japan for example where they've really invested heavily in vocational training, which seems to me to be a no brainer it's like, maybe without having to revamp the entire relationship between men and women. We could say, well, wouldn't it be good social policy for everyone concerned to pay some attention to the vast majority of men who could use vocational training, for example, as an avenue to success in all domains of life. And why are we so unable to do that when the Japanese can do it. Yes, and we really are there are so many things like that that we can do I mean schools for example, we could have one of the things I've suggested to the White House both the Trump administration and also under the Biden administration is starting a male teacher court in which men are trained to be teachers, particularly in dad to private areas, school districts, and they get free scholarships, they get full scholarships for college but yet in exchange for that full scholarship for college, they have to serve three or four years as a teacher and a dad and a school district that has female teachers. And so you think that's I'm thinking of objections to that selection on the basis of gender let's say which I'm, you know, pretty much temperamentally opposed to but in some sense but this, this is a data driven question. The data suggests that there are areas that we so it's differentiated it's not ideologically driven it's a differentiated solution. There are, there's data indicating that the provision of male role models in places that are deprived of those would be of benefit to everyone concerned and so that's a targeted social policy. Yes, not an ideological statement. Precisely and in fact it's even more complex than that the way that I've suggested it is that you don't just get males like me I consider myself more of a small law. You also get more traditional males so that that no matter who your son is, if you if you've grown up in a home without a male role model in the home without a biological father particularly in the home that you had that your son no matter what he's prone to itself is that he's able to go to see find a role model find a role model that is that it's not just another nurture or connect your male, but you know a construction worker or a man that's retired from a more of a profession that was more traditional like a whatever firefighter and that your son is able to see that possibility and then also the nurture or connect your male as a possibility and so that those things be offered.
The Father Warrior Program idea. (02:04:00)
Another suggestion that I think is by far the most important one that I made to both the most important one is that the importance of creating a father warrior program W. A. R. R. and because every gender historically speaking as you as you read in the boy crisis book about the purpose void that men have been there by no longer being as needed as soldiers and no longer being as needed as full time breadwinners that the male have the option of seeing himself as possibly involved in some and I lost where I was going with that. And you were talking about the male warrior idea and the need for purpose and the social policy associated with that. Yes, and so what I've suggested to both white houses is the importance of creating a father warrior program where we're saying, we need men to be full of fully involved, learn all the traits of being a responsible emotionally connected father. We need women to value this in men as well. And so, how would that work practically speaking like I'm always thinking about incentives like if we wanted to incentivize young men to be responsible fathers which I think is exactly the right role to be playing in every virtually every role that a man plays is the role of responsible father that's the right role, not everyone but virtually everyone. How do you incentivize that at the level of social policy in a practical way. The number one thing you do is you honor it. So for example when we had each generation had its war and we said uncle Sam needs you when men are told they are needed. That gives them purpose that gives them drive that gives them honor. So how do we, okay so how do we say fathers you are needed without saying single mothers you're inadequate because that's the killer right that's the killer right there because one implies the other or that's the theory so you know and this is this is a shole upon which our culture is is wrecking itself is how do we reward behavior that is eminently pro social in the broadest possible sense of the word without punishing simultaneously punishing those who are excluded from that but struggling to do the best under the conditions that have presented themselves to them. Absolutely. We say to mothers two things. One is we honor mothers for being just overwhelmed I mean I've never, between marriages I dated a number of almost all the women I dated were women who had children. And the word that they use most frequently was overwhelmed. And the and so many of the mothers I tended to date very bright women and so they often felt caught between they could do better in work. They could go further they could go farther. They weren't up to their full level but and they could do better as mothers they felt guilty as mothers that they didn't have enough time for their work and they didn't have enough time. And the other thing is that they're not spending enough time with their kids and they're not spending enough time on their work and both of those are true in some sense. Absolutely and when they would they would say I want to spend more time with you. But I'm caught between my work my the other treat and my and my love interest. And the larger social message that needs to come out come out to men is men. Women need your help. Women do not need not we must not leave women to feel like they have their parents. So is it women or mothers. Mother's I'm sorry. It's okay I mean it's just it's important to get it right right I mean absolutely women you might not need men's help mothers you do. And so do your children. Right exactly so that your so that when you focus on mothers being overwhelmed every mother hears that when you say to a mother when a mother hears we're now going to be emphasizing the importance of dad's getting in there to balance the picture with you to help you out to not have you have the entire burden mothers do hear that in a positive way.
Dr. Farrell's suggestions to both Trump & Biden administrations. (02:09:00)
If you are simultaneously saying which I think is a hundred percent true that you have just been that you've been overwhelmed and you've been we respect and honor the fact that you've you've taken so much responsibility. But it is not helpful for you to have to be pulled in so many directions. It is not helpful for the children. It's not optimal for the children. It's not optimal for the children. And it's not helpful for the dad because the dad is experiencing a purpose void of feeling not needed and unwanted and men with purpose voids tend to look for a purpose. Yes, tend to purpose and or look for a be a be negative sometimes in their purpose. And we definitely need to help mothers and fathers in the whole country understand. Okay, so this sounds great. So why the hell don't you have any traction with Trump or with Biden because that pretty much exhausts the options. What's going on? Well, I, you know, with with Trump. The Trump administration said they were very excited about it. They asked me to write up a speech that Trump would give. And he never gave it. And so with the idea why. I mean, you'd think it would have been useful to him. You'd think given his constituency. I would have thought it would have been 100% useful to him. I, you know, I made the case that there are about 20 million parents that have children that boys rather that are in failure to launch mode in some way, shape or form. And that these mothers care more about their sons and they care about their party label that this could open an entire themselves maybe even. Yes, exactly. And I said this to both the Biden administration and the Trump administration. The Biden administration was at least, you know, the 14 people that I met with at the White House and with HHS. They said they were very all to a person extremely enthusiastic. With the Democrats have gotten much more of a reset a resistance when the White House Council on gender policy was created and I objected to that not including boys and men and fathers. And, and said that you couldn't possibly say you were in favor of diversity and inclusion when you excluded fathers and boys and men. And then they said that there's only 50% of the population. Yes, yes, or 49% percent or whatever. But, you know, but it's one thing if you just say boys and men are not important. It's another thing to say I'm in favor of diversity and inclusion. And then to say that the second mission of the gender policy council is to have racial justice and not understand that racial justice can that the single biggest group of people who are having challenges in the culture are black males and, you know, if you, if you go to a homeless city. And then the next question is, what is the primary example of the intersectionality that's being touted as crucial to the development of our entire culture. Yes, yes. And here it's the prime example perhaps. Indeed. Because I think black women are outperforming black men on average. In almost every metric. Yes. Yes. Exactly. So, so, you know, well, that does beg the question. Maybe one question it begs is where exactly is the systemic racism. The racism. Use a horrible phrase. Yes, I don't even want to go to systemic racism but if, if the, if the goal of the White House Gender Policy Council is to have racial justice as it says it is, then you would. But then they go ahead and exclude black males from racial justice and only focus on black females. That is undermining racial justice because the, as we know, since the 1965 with the Moynihan report. The, when we did studies of inner city crime and the fear when Patrick Moynihan went to do that study was oh my goodness he's going to be blaming black people is going to be racist. In fact, he ended up finding that it was not blacks per se that were creating the crime. It was just that one 25 at that point in history in 1965. It was only 25% of the children who were being raised in families were without father involvement and almost all of the crimes that were being committed were from the, the dead deprived children. Well, now that hasn't changed that well that hasn't changed except one thing has changed. It has changed the percentage of children who are raised in dad deprived mode in the black community has gone way up. 25%. What do you think of the counter arguments to that that have been raised recently that black men are just as involved with their children. It's just that it's in ways that the, you know, privileged white community Jesus Christ isn't recognizing and that that's just another form that idea that, you know, the black father is less engaged just just another racist trope.
Insights From Prisons: Role Of Fathers, Single Mothers, And Challenges In Politics
Dad deprived situations, and Dr. Farrell's experience talking to the prison population. (02:14:00)
Yeah. No, some black father, there are a significant number of black fathers who are involved with their children. That is not where those children that those are not the children that are having problems as long as the black mother is also involved with the children. So, whenever you have that, and of course the social policies we're talking about before, you know, the giving money to the women infants and children program and other program where the female who did the black female or the white female who did not have a father in the home. She would be helped if the father was not in the home that did reinforce very significantly the propensity of the mother to say, let's say the father wasn't earning very much money. So the father would, if you if you live away from me, we'll be able to get government support. And so then that right incentive for living with. Watch your incentives. Right. And we have to realize today, it's not just that the African American families now have more than 70% of the children who are raised with minimal or no father involvement or what I call dad to private children. But also at the time of the Moynihan report 1965, there was only 3.2% of Caucasian families whose children were living in dad to private situations. Now that's gone up to 35% in Caucasian families. And so we had this enormous dad deprivation in it's in these dad to private families that watch what's going to happen in the fall. We're going to have significant numbers of school shootings. And one of the things that we see with school shooters in the 21st century, every school shooter who shot a shot 10 or more people killed 10 or more people. Every one of them was dad deprived.
The importance of role models and what single moms can do. (02:16:00)
When we look at the prison population, it's 93% male, and the great majority of those males are dad to private males. I think I've never experienced something that was more touching for me than when I ran for governor and I spoke of California and I spoke around that a few prison populations and I talked to these prison populations almost all male. The first question I would ask is, you know, how many of you had an involved father in about 3 or 4% of the hands of the prison population, but would go up. And then I would talk to them about all the things that dads do that are different from what moms tend to do like the teasing like the postpone, right, of the occasion, like the rough housing and what the psychological value of those were for the children's growth and development. And I had these guys with tattoos and, you know, muscles that I'll never have coming up to me and saying, crying and saying, I never realized I was worth anything. I thought I was better off probably in prison because I was the worthless person in the family. And suddenly for the first time, I'm feeling like I want to get out of prison to help my children not have the problems that I had and not go and not make the mistakes that I made. And so there's this enormous desire on the part of a man to know that they're valuable as father. You know, my sense as a clinical psychologist has always been that a kid has to have one role model sometime in their life to make it. They have to have someone to mimic or they can't make it now you can get that a variety of ways. Remember reading Angela's ashes. It's great book by Frank McCourt and his dad was a recalcitrant alcoholic who drank the family's livelihood and health away. It was awful. But he kind of separated his dad into good dad and bad dad and bad dad was drunk evening dad and good dad was sober morning dad and he got his mimicry from good sober morning dad, you know, so you can, you can pick it up in bits and pieces from different places. But if you're, even if you have an intact nervous system, you know, and you're not suffering from burdens right at the point of your birth from from deprivation that's that began before you were even around. You need to have at least one model in your life that shows you what the good version of you could be because otherwise how the hell do you know what it is. And it needs to be embodied, right? So you can see it play itself out. So then you can play with it. Yes, absolutely. Let me, let me to that effect. Let me address the females in the audience here listening to this that are single moms. And, and what can you do. So the number one thing that you can do is take a look at the differences between dad style parenting and mom style parenting because oftentimes the things that dads do look like they're not caring about the children, the things like teasing, the things like rough housing, the things that letting the children take risks like climbing the trees like we talked about. They all seem like this, the tough love decisions are often seen. You see the toughness without the love very frequently. And so, take a very careful look at that. Make sure that if you're still, if you still have the dad at all around or available that you get into family dinner night discussions where everybody learns how to listen to everybody else's perspective. And the family learn how to do a negotiating of that checks and balance parenting. But it's absolutely impossible to get the biological father involved and I'm afraid that the biological father children do better with the biological father than they do with the stepfather mostly step parent elevates risk for abuse by a hundredfold. If I remember correctly. It's a very stepfathers almost always are never allowed to be more than advisors. If you do have a stepfather work on that issue that I talk about in the boy crisis book on how to engage the stepfather as a real equal assuming that he's responsible and loving man. But if all those things fail, make sure you get your child at the age appropriate time into cub scouts cub scouts involved children involved in cub scouts for two or more years. Have a very significant increase in character development over children that are involved in cub scouts minimally and or not at all. Boy scouts are a wonderful construct deconstruction of masculinity they've really figured out how to bring out the best in boys. Faith based communities children who are in faith based communities make sure your faith based leader gets your son involved with other in small groups with other boys his age and make sure he he encourages your son to be involved in the group to end all the boys in the group to talk about their feelings and their fears so that they can see that they're not alone in those feelings and fears. Make sure your children are involved in the what I call the liberal arts of sports, but by the liberal arts of sports I mean team sports. So pick up team sports, which and also sports where you have to develop your own skills. It's your part of a team like in gymnastics or in tennis, but you're not interacting with the team all the time. So, what are the most important things that you have to do to make sure those things will develop in your son different types of skill sets.
Issues Farrell faced while getting through with both political parties. (02:21:30)
The most important one that oftentimes moms don't realize the value up is the value of pickup team sports. So, I think that somebody supervising them, how big the court should be a basketball court should be should be half size full size. One of the following rules who do you check check is perfect developmental skills for being an entrepreneur and being being able to make decisions without supervision. So, I think that's a really important thing to say team sports are pretty obvious what their benefits are and and developing skills without that are dependent on this team are part of the liberal arts of sports. So spend time in the boy crisis but looking at what you can do as a single as a single. So, I think the most important thing to think about your books and why men earn more as well as that they're there full of information but they're also practical. And they have practical advice here's things you can actually do which is something people apparently appreciate about my books. So it's nice to have it detailed down to the level of action. And then, as I know we're we've exhausted you. What, why did you receive such, I would like to know why you think you didn't get more traction with the Trump people but then I would like you to tell me what's up with the Democrats why didn't you get. Why did you get rejected so out of hand. When you put forward these perfectly reasonable propositions which in principle should be in accordance with what they're claiming to support. And even the Trump people this is what I'm going to say now is 10 times 10 fold this issue with the Biden people. But even the Trump people were fearful that the single mother would feel criticized and they were afraid of losing that the support from her. And so that was that was what I heard behind the scenes was the gap between it being very much recommended by the people that I spoke with versus actually having a presentation delivered by Trump. The other thing was that they were fearful that it would it would call attention to Trump's failed marriages and, and his womanizing, and they didn't want to open that door. Okay, okay. From the Biden side, it was like it was well the best example of this is what I went to Iowa and I interviewed nine of the presidential candidates that were Democrats. Most of them were very excited, especially Andrew Yang and Senator Hickenlooper John Hickenlooper were very excited about what I was saying. Andrew Yang already had a mastery of what was what the problems were with boys. He was on the tip of maybe being able potentially to talk about the issue. Well, when I finished talking with both Andrew Yang and and Hickenlooper, especially with Andrew Yang, the female campaign manager came up to me and said, I'm sorry Warren. We just cannot have him talk about these issues. This will alienate our feminist base this will alienate women who are single moms. And we want, we want also many of the women who are divorced. We want them not to feel that they won't have the choice of going off and starting a new life and bringing their children to a new location with a new man. And so we're afraid of losing that bait those. Yes, well, and to hell with the old man. Yes. And so it was really, and that they were honest with me. That's the good news. The bad news is they were, you know, this was the case. And so with the when the Biden administration created the White House Gender Policy Council, which was a day or two before he was actually inaugurated. The, and it was focused on, you know, women and girls and, you know, and both black women and girls and white women and girls. I protested and talked with Jen Klein, who's the co chair about this many times and her only answer over and over again and I was born. President Biden cares about men and boys war and President Biden cares about the fathers. And my response is my, my constant hammering of her about well, then, then it should be written into the White House Gender Policy Council to create these these programs of dozens of which I suggested that could increase and improve the lives of boys and men. And I was met with no answer. Like just so what what's the problem. What's the problem as far as you're concerned we as well have it right out what the hell's going on. And Jen Klein's case and in the, in the, in the feminist and the liberal political leadership and the Democrats, it is just a fundamentally and totally honest belief that women have it worse than men.
Drafting and male privilege. (02:26:30)
That boys and men and the constant image that comes up for the political liberals is Warren. Right. So it's the gender it's the classification of the world by sex that's the problem. It isn't who has problems and how do we help them. It's, it's the classification first and the problem second. It's we live in a patriarchal world dominated by men who made the rules to benefit men at the expense of women. The proof of that one is that look at who's at the top of the political ladder look at who's the top of the corporate ladder. Look at who's the top of even the religious side. Right. So it's right back to where we started which is identify that tiny minority of men who are hyper successful. Generalize that to the masculine universe at large and to hell with those that are in the middle or the bottom, which is so what is that hypergamy in female politics. Is it the same thing. And it's not the realization that the men at the top. Correct. And when I say to them things like, you know, it isn't male privilege. Do you consider it male privilege for every generation during their war to train the boys and the men to be the ones that died in war so that you can be protected and save. And it's just like closed mouth. What about the legislation that's become a real issue in Korea. Yes, Korea. Oh, yes. Yes, there are no shortage of men who are not thrilled about the fact that they are conscripted for two years and the women aren't. Well, you know, my sense is, well, the women pay their dues in childbirth and pregnancy and you know, but nonetheless it's, it's an issue and it's producing no shortage of resentment and friction among young Koreans. And here in the United States, you know, it's still the law, which is probably the most unconstitutional law that most violates the 14th Amendment's equal protection laws. And so, you know, you can still build a law in the United States that your son who's 18 must register for the draft if he doesn't. He's could be fined a quarter million dollars he could be put in prison for a year or two. He can in 42 states he can lose his driver's license if he doesn't register for the draft. There's a whole series of other he could never go to a school that gets federal money, which is virtually every school, including private schools. This is all the punishment that men have male your son has if he's 18 and doesn't register for the draft. The punishment for females is zero, because they don't have to register for the draft. They have the option to do so. What do you think of that war like the old fashioned patriarchal part of me thinks. I think two ways at the same time, you know, unfortunately about that I think, you know, I do believe to some degree that that's the balancing of the scales, you know that as you pointed out in your own book, you know, men, dying war and women dying child birth now they don't die in childbirth so much anymore, but they did and in great numbers and was terrible pain and all of the privation that went along with that obligatory responsibility tremendous amount of that has been emeliorated, not all of it, but a tremendous amount. Thank God for technological progress. And so, but, but having said that well, it doesn't sit well the idea of women drafted for frontline combat doesn't sit well with me. Yes, I think there's an answer to that, which is we don't have to draft people for frontline combat there are there are men that are not suited to that there are women that are not suited to that. But we're, but I think it's a good solution would be either you don't have registration for the draft which creates a different set of problems and not having a ready group ready to say you, but you have people register at the age of 18 for some type of service of say six months or more. And, and, and then you, you mark off the type of service that your personality that your, that your contribution can make you could be a healthcare frontline worker you can be a volunteer in this way or that way.
The Need For Proactive Dialogue In Society
The dialogue that's needed in our culture. (02:31:00)
So if there's mandatory service it's mandatory for all but the service itself can differ. And, and, and everyone could have some choice in that. And who knows maybe there'd be enough people pick frontline combat to fill the necessary places. It's possible I mean there are people who are constitutionally inclined towards that. And if there isn't enough people for that then you do a supply and demand type of phenomenon you raise the income for the people who do. Right, right, right. I mean that would write exactly that would be the equitable way of dealing with it is, is increase the hazard pay. Yes, exactly. Right. And you'd watch the demand in you watch the supply increase. Exactly. Because there'd be people who are right on the line right right on the edge. Exactly. Right, right, right. Right. And then the final things to say. Yeah, I guess maybe the most important thing I'd like us to all get is that there are so many things like hashtag me too, that are so valuable for us to hear the pain and the experience that women go through. And then the way we're going to as a monologue is a disaster, because it needs to be a dialogue. Yeah, just like it needs to be a dialogue between men and women and a family. Exactly. We need to hear that that men have pain men have all these, these, you know, the 50 plus developmental challenges that I talk about that men feel lonely isolated that men, and suffer more, because when, because one thing we need to do it just for compassion. Secondly, there's so many misunderstandings and anger that is happening by, we say on the one hand, men are, we have toxic masculinity. They don't express their feelings. They don't say who they are. And then we make men pay an enormous price when they do express their feelings. And so so many young men feel caught between a rock and a hard place. Yes, well, I would say that's happened in my case, you know, because I have this unfortunate masculinity, diversity, diversity, tears, slightest provocation, which has haunted me my entire life, but is still quite pronounced. And it isn't exactly obvious to me that, you know, my radical left wing critics are above using that as a weapon. It's quite interesting to note, you know, and maybe they're justified in doing so. I'm not saying that that's, but that's, it runs contrary to their hypothetical theory. Yes, yes, exactly. And, you know, and I've said man after man, by the way, I have an exact same character is if my wife were here listening now she'd be really chuckling because anything that is, you know what I had to hold myself back when I was talking about the memory of the of the men in the prison population coming up to me afterwards and themselves crying. Right, right. Now I think you just about got me there too. The hashtag me to dialogue is, is so important, not just for empathy, but also because to eradicate the toxic part of masculinity that keeps feelings all to oneself because when you do that, you end up having a volcano built inside of you and it comes out as the anger and it comes out as distance, it comes out as drinking it comes out and destructive behavior, and it also comes out in things like school shootings mass shootings committing crimes. And so both to protect ourselves from the mass shootings from the ISIS recruits almost all of whom are dead deprived males and females, and also Adam. Is there data on that one with regards to recruitment for. Yes, there is a fact was done by three sociologists who looked at the studied ISIS recruits in Lebanon. And after doing that, they anecdotally told each other afterwards, you know, a lot of these these guys have don't have their dads and they were trying to get involved with ISIS to have some sense of purpose beyond themselves. Well, there's never part of our questionnaire, they went back and then did a systematic study of the men asking, including that question that had not been asked at the beginning, and found that to be the single most common denominator of the ISIS recruits. By the way, there's 89% male ISIS recruits and 11% female ISIS recruits, and the females had dad deprivation as an issue, as well as the males as the single biggest characteristic. Patriarchal ideology as a substitute for paternal relationship. Yes, yes, absolutely. And just a need to have some sense of purpose and feeling of being needed. And that's one of the things that dads are so good at as working with moms moms are so good at identifying a child's gifts, nurturing the child's gifts, and dads are so good at the tough love oftentimes that are necessary to help the child achieve those gifts. Yeah, well, I thought, you know, it seems to me that the central characteristic of the benevolent paternal spirit, parodied as the patriarchy is encouragement. Oh, encourage. Well, I would I said, I think it take a little bit of a different issue there. I think moms and dads both encourage a lot. But moms oftentimes repeat the encouragement. And when the child fails are still encouraging, whereas the dads say, if you want to get to that outcome, you need to not do that texting. You need not to, you know, do all the things that that outcome requires, and they tend to sort of enforce those boundaries and hold the child accountable to a greater degree. Does that make sense? Sure, sure. That's. Thank you very much for talking with me today, Warren. It's much much appreciated. You don't exhaust me. You energize me. I just so glad to hear that. And I hope that I hope that everybody finds this conversation useful. Thank you. Thanks again, A. Thank you. Good, too.