Episode 299 - Scott Nelson Interview | Co-Founder of Joovv | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Episode 299 - Scott Nelson Interview | Co-Founder of Joovv".

1970-01-01T01:03:20.000Z

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Introduction

Intro (00:00)

This is 15 Minutes to Freedom. I'm your host, Ryan Neidell, and today I have a special guest, one of the founders of Juve Red Light Therapy Scott Nelson coming from Southern California. Scott how are you today? Awesome man nice to be on the on the show and I'm glad you consider me special dude so yeah. Glad I consider you special. You have literally in the past 30 days changed my outlook on life here in in central Ohio right it's negative five degrees outside and I can still get light exposure with your product so of course you're very very special. Well I appreciate that honestly. here in central Ohio, right? It's negative five degrees outside and I can still get light exposure with your product. So of course you're very, very special. Well, I appreciate that. Honestly, excited, excited for the conversation, man. Thanks, Scott. So I'm going to jump right in with a question for my listeners.


Understanding And Applying Light Therapy In Daily Life With Juve

Benefits of light therapy (00:53)

If they were to do one thing to increase light exposure right now and the benefits that come from light exposure, what would you recommend people do? of fits that come from light exposure, what would you recommend people do? First thing is don't go buy our device or any other device. I think first thing I would do is similar to how most people think or treat macronutrients when they want to start eating healthier, I would just become more awareness of your exposure to natural light. That's first and foremost. Just be more cognizant of it on a daily basis with the end goal of slowly increasing your natural light on a daily or in any sort of consistent basis really. And what I see by natural light is, you know, if at all possible, if you live in a climate that gets halfway decent sunlight throughout the year, try to get outside more. Don't expose yourself to, you know, white artificial light all day. Try to get some of the natural good stuff. And there's a process where you want to probably slowly work up over time. But just being more cognizant of that and trying to work it into your daily routine, that's what I'd say is step number one. Scott, I love that. And just in case, we'll treat this as though nobody knows what light does for them. Because I think this is this obscure thing where I personally, from the research I've done, realize as we've evolved as a society, right, blue lights everywhere, we're indoors more. Like we're not genetically really wired to be inside. There's so many benefits from being out in natural light or using red light therapy, right? I'm going to look at those interchangeable. Bias for me living in Ohio, being in an office all the time, I like red light. What is the benefit from natural light exposure? Like office all the time. I like red light. What is the benefit from natural light exposure? Like what are some of the things or red light, you know, infrared light? What are you seeing that, why do we need it? Right, right. No, I think, I think where you started that, that question is, is, um, is, is a really good, a really good point because, um, our, our, our bodies aren't biologically designed to be exposed to this little amount of natural light on a consistent basis. And as a kind of a supportive data point, it's pretty well documented that Americans now spend over 90% of their time indoors. their time in yours. Which is, that's a really big stat to spend only about 10% of our days in natural light. And so when you think about how our ancestors lived and how they grew up, that was completely not the case. And so within the past hundred years, we've gone arguably maybe from the opposite extreme where you know our ancestors were exposed to probably you know maybe 80% of their time to natural light you know and then you know fast forward a hundred years and it's almost the exact opposite and so I think our bodies weren't designed in this fashion and we can't biologically adapt that fast so so with that said kind of if you operate under that presumption and that's a in a relatively short amount of time we've gone from you know the pendulum this one from one end to the other you've got to look at okay why you know so why why what why is light so important right and so i'm gonna i'm gonna speak to you know what we what's defined kind of as light therapy or photobiomodulation there's a lot of benefits from uh from various wavelengths of light um you know everyone's you know that's listening to this understands that uv light helps our bodies produce more vitamin D which is really healthy so there is this broad spectrum of light but more specifically within a within a relatively narrow band of light wavelengths between about 600 nanometers and a thousand nanometers nanometers are often that's the metric that's often used to measure measure wavelengths. But between that narrow band 600 to 1000, there's a ton of clinically proven health benefits across the board. So it's everything from muscle recovery to enhancing peak athletic performance to helping your body naturally increase melatonin levels. So optimizing your sleep to enhance cognitive function to weight loss even which is you know so all these benefits it almost sounds like I'm giving some spiel for for a late-night QVC infomercial but the reality is that it's supported by a ton of published peer-reviewed science meaning that other peers in the field of photobiomodulation have reviewed this data and they've published it in reputable medical journals. And so light therapy or photobiomodulation is supported by so much science for a really broad range of benefits. Well, Scott, I love you sharing that because I will give a heartfelt and honest depiction of what I've experienced so far. So I think it's 27 days in consistent therapy, right? Have my own unit, have a solo here in the office that I turn on for 15 or 20 minutes and they to kind of recharge. I look at that as it's hacking my mitochondria that it's, if I expose it to my face, if I'm within six inches of the light, what it's doing is just recharging my battery, right? The mitochondria being the energy cells of our body and knowing that some of them die off over time. And it's kind of forcing those to die off a little more quickly with my very archaic understanding of how the human body works. If I take that coupled with, I do somewhere between 10 and 15 minutes a side on a full body unit inside my house every morning, right? I do a infrared sauna and then I hop right into the red light therapy and it's back to back. What I've noticed in that so far is I've had to get a haircut twice as often, which means my hair is growing quicker, right? That's the only variable. My life is very, very consistent. I like it that way. So two times as many haircuts, have to trim my nails, it feels like every third day, which means in my mind collagen production is increasing. So protein efficiency is increasing. I have increased energy, which would again come down to that mitochondria and how all those work and what the light therapy is doing for energy production there. I have lost somewhere between three and five pounds, right? And we can say that's increased energy in workouts. Maybe I'm performing with more of a peak workout. Maybe it's the fact of just literally that my thyroid production's increased based off of standing in front of the light. I can also dive into the fact that my pore size on my face has decreased. I think there's a certain amount of vanity in all of us if we're honest. So my pores are a little bit smaller. And my inflammation is down. I picked up boxing, not that you would know this, but I picked up boxing a year and a half ago. And just the consistent stress on my shoulders, it's nice. I can go stand in front of that light for 25 or 30 minutes. And I can physically see the inflammation decrease in my shoulder. Not to mention all the other ancillary benefits of, for me as a man, what feels like increased testosterone production, so stronger erections, more of a sex drive. I'm an open book on my side. These are all, you haven't paid me for this. I'm not a sponsored Juve representative. This is 27 days of consistency. And that's one of the things that I preach on the show. You can do anything for a day or two, right? A day or two, everything's fun. You got to be consistent. And there's ways to use your treatment, right? That whole six inches close to the light. I can see a lot of people posting for Juve and like the red lights just kind of filling up the room. And I'm it's kind of working Maybe but that's not that's not the instructions, right?


Light Therapy Natural Red Light Exposure Works (07:43)

You've done research as to how to use and and have I shared anything that you haven't seen before right like these are all normal Benefits. Yeah. No, I mean it's cool that you've experienced so many of them, but obviously you're using it consistency Eric consistently I should say and and that's that's one of the keys with with light therapy or Exposure to any natural sunlight in general. I mean, you want to be consistent with it. It's not too dissimilar to eating a healthy diet. I mean, if you're inconsistent with that, you're not going to see great results. So one, I think it's really cool to hear that you've experienced that broad range of benefits. But that's often like what we hear from from people they they purchased a you know a device for um you know maybe because i heard someone talking about it helps them increase testosterone or you know kind of you know sexual libido and that's maybe their that's really the only reason they wanted the the device for but then they start using consistently like wait a second like i'm sleeping way better than i ever have um i'm using it on my face and like people are commenting you know, how great my skin looks, etc. Your skin looks good, by the way. Thank you. It's good as far away. It's deceptive. But thank you. I'll take it. But yeah, no, that's pretty common. So it's, you know, we find that a lot with a lot of our customers that bought, you know, they were interested in light therapy for one specific reason and then they end up noticing a lot a lot more reasons and you know a lot of those one a lot of those benefits that you noticed are um are not only pretty pretty common so skin health reduction of you know any sort of inflammation um a greater like a greater sort of in greater um increased energy you know uh um those kind of things but literally every benefit is supported by peer-reviewed published literature it's it's pretty it's a pretty amazing space in the sense that none of this is just kind of anecdotal or qualitative it's all supported by you know solid peer-reviews data some more than others of course but still nonetheless it's all it's all supported by research so if you're a whether or not you're a kind of a nerd science kind of first person you can rest assured that you know most of these benefits are, you know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of clinical evidence that, that, that demonstrates, demonstrates everything that you mentioned. Well, Scott, that brings up another topic to dive into. I've only started sharing the Juve journey since I've been using it more frequently, right? I first was introduced to it out in Venice beach, Santa Monica, the upgrade labs out there. It used to be bulletproof labs, right? They've switched names back and forth. I love that stuff. I'm a big Bulletproof fan. Then there's a place called US Cryo here in Columbus, Ohio that I've used a couple of times, but it wasn't enough to necessarily share consistently. But Juve as a company, this is not like you didn't come up with this idea like in your garage three weeks ago and be like, I'm going to create some red lights and I'm going to take them to market because there's some peer review. Can you walk us through like literally the story of you? I mean, we'll get to you, but I want to know who Scott is, right? Because that's like you didn't come out of the womb saying like, I'm going to produce red light therapy. There's got to be an evolution to get us here. Yeah, there's no doubt. And this is kind of a, I mean, speaking through my experience, this, maybe a little bit more biased towards your listeners that kind of dig, you know, kind of an entrepreneurial journey and like trying things and then not working and whatnot. But specific to, I guess, let me take a step out, share a little bit about my background and then we can kind of get into the Juve story. But my entire professional career, so I'm 37, my late 30s, my entire career for the past 15 years has been spent in the traditional medical device space We've only lived in Southern Cat we moved our we moved you to Southern California about a year ago We're recording this in early 2019 here about a year ago But we moved from Minneapolis because that's you know The Silicon Valley of traditional medical device companies Medtronic, Covidien, Boston Scientific all the all the big players are there So I spent my entire career there and in in always in a commercialization capacity so sales and marketing but that's it's a very conservative space I mean everything that you do needs to be it's highly regulated environment and every every all claims that you know that you make about your product have to be either either your product has to be you know it has to have shown that in clinical data or there has to be some sort of precedent for regulated or clinical precedent for making certain claims. So it's a very conservative space. And then, you know, specific to my experience in that arena, it taught me a lot of things, but I've always been biased towards startups and, you know, the entrepreneurial life. So, and we talked a little bit about this before you hit the record button. Like I started podcasting back in 2009, you know, the entrepreneurial life. So, and we talked a little bit about this before you hit the record button. Like I started podcasting back in 2009, you know, Andrew Warner with Mixergy was like, you still, I still really look up to his work. But he like, he got me going. And I've tried numerous kind of side hustles for quite some time just because I just, it's always something that's been of interest to me, both good and bad. You know, sometimes it can be, you know, distracting and have sort of, there's negative consequences of that from a family perspective. I've got young kids, et cetera. So you can touch on that if you want to. But that's a little bit more about me. And then kind of leading up to Juve, it was early to mid-2015. So at the time I was with Medtronic in the in the peripheral vascular division of Medtronic and my sister-in-law Melissa she had she purchased a I think it was I think it was around this time of year like it was like early to midwinter and she had we were living in Minneapolis and she purchased a you know I'm using air quotes here for those people that are listening she first first red light therapy package at a local a local spa in Minneapolis.


Juved Or How It Got Started (12:46)

It's one of those that where you know you buy 15 or 20 sessions etc. And she went consistently I mean she's she's kind of always been a biohacker before that was really a term you know that was you know there's really you know people refer to that as something that was semi familiar butamiliar. But she went consistently, I think like four or five times a week, and saw really good benefits from the therapy. And so she convinced my wife to do the same, and my wife saw really good benefits. And most of those were related to skin health, and it was actually the spa where they purchased the red light therapy, it was actually a converted tanning bed that used fluorescent bulbs. So you're still getting some benefits, it's not an ideal source of light therapy and we can get into the science of that in more detail. But nonetheless, if you do it long enough and consistent enough, you will see benefits. And so they both saw really nice benefits from a skin perspective, but it's just onerous to go to a clinic or spa that often. It's a great, in my opinion, to do it in spurts if you can, to experience maybe something new for the first time without having to make an investment. But to do it on some sort of consistent basis can be time consuming, it's not budget friendly, of course.


Why Sun Exposure Led To Lawsuits (14:12)

And so Melissa ended up convincing Justin, who's an engineer, her husband Justin, who's an engineer, she was, Justin, who's an engineer. She was like, you know, can you build something for me that I can use at home? Right? There's, I can't find anything online, everything, whether it's through Amazon or just a simple Google search, you know, all these little devices, it doesn't seem like they're powerful enough. And really more importantly, they're very small. They're very small and handheld. I want something that can treat my full body. So that's kind of what's her ask and you know, Justin's busy and you know, didn't have the time but you know, she kept insisting and so he started building out some, you know, some what we consider kind of our first prototypes, you know, back in mid, at that time is mid 2015. Some of those prototypes even included infrared heat lamps, right? Like the bulbs that you can buy at Home Depot or Lowe's or any department store. Some of those early, anyway, long story short, we quickly kind of figured out like the benefits that she was experiencing in the spa weren't the same with these kind of these early prototypes. And so Justin started digging into this, some of the physics of light therapy. And then we started kind of at the group, the four of us, my wife and then Justin and his wife, you know, kind of started getting together on a more weekly basis to talk about this whole light therapy thing because it seemed like from our perspective, there was some existing gaps in the market. All these devices were very small and handheld and most of them, you know, were pretty underpowered. And then as we started digging in, and me specifically because of my med tech background, I started really digging into the clinical data. And you know, what's really like, of these supposed benefits, like what's really true? Like, what does the science really say? And what do you need? What do you actually need from a light therapy device to actually get these get these benefits that are supported in clinical research? And so, you know, at the this kind of takes us into you know late 2015 like q3 of 2015 ish and we kind of we came to the realization that in with with red light therapy products in general most of most of the ones on the market were either too small which I mentioned I mean some of them may be good maybe good devices they're just handheld so if you want want to treat, you know, a broader area of your body, you just really limited it would take forever. Two was a lot of the companies quite honestly, weren't overly transparent with sort of the specs of their devices, which wavelengths, you know, are delivered, what's the power output that's actually absorbed by your body, etc. So we were after, you know, we wanted a device that delivered a clinically proven wavelengths, because there's actually a very narrow spectrum of wavelengths that's been that have been shown to produce all these benefits. And then third, we wanted something that was was big enough where someone could, you know, could, could, you know, use it for their whole body in a relatively short amount of time. And that was our end goal, like full body light therapy in a relatively short amount of time. And that was our end goal, like full body light therapy in a relatively short amount of time. And so we didn't really see anything else on the market. It's an extensive work and that's kind of what set us down that path of, you know, from early prototypes to launching our first device in early 2016. So when was your first official sale? When did somebody finally pull out their credit card or like when did the first dollar come in? Yes, I'm a big product market fit guy.


How Light Therapy Can Enhance Training (17:25)

So for those other kind of more entrepreneurial minded people that are listening to this, I think that's one of the big lesson learned from our story and many others. I mean, we're certainly not unique in this, is that as quick and as efficient from a capital perspective as possible, I mean, I think everyone should determine whether or not you have some sort of semblance of product market fit. And that you can, you know, there's a number of paths that you can take to get there.


Melissas Experience With Light Therapy (17:45)

The path that we took was, my sister actually is, she owns her own med spa as well. And so light therapy is actually fairly well known in that arena. It's pretty well documented in dermatology and medical spas that light therapy is proven to work for skin health. And so we actually, that was sort of our true case study is like, once we, okay, her clients that don't know us, right, they know her, but they don't know us, would they buy, right? And then that was one of the big steps. Yeah, it was clear. We didn't even have a website at this point. It was like, you know, they they you know, it was clear that Semi strangers were interested in this product and willing to actually fork out some some money, you know Some money for it five hundred plus dollars for it. And then the next step was okay Well, if we throw up a relatively simple website would complete strangers people that have no idea who we are like zero idea Would they buy and so and we we, in a fairly short fashion, we figured that out across, you know, early in early 2016, you know, February, March that, yeah, I mean, it seems like there is, you know, people are interested in this, in the concept of, you know, high powered red light therapy devices that treat a big area of your body. And so that was kind of our first, that was our, that was, that was where, you know, we were able to, you know, sort of, you know, experience product market fit pretty early, which is, you know, paramount in kind of our, you know, the trajectory of our company. Well, absolutely. And Scott, being an entrepreneur and knowing that a lot of the listeners are entrepreneurial mindset or business owners themselves, has this been bootstrapped the whole time? If you went through capital raise, what's the plan? Getting to know you now, there has to be a plan.


Wholecideals The Environment Of Tech Startups (19:24)

None of us just arbitrarily like, okay, I got a product. I'm going to market it. I'm going to see what happens. There's got to be a three, five, 10-year vision for what you want to do with this, where it's going to go. Have you went through capital raise? Are you self-funded? What are the hurdles you've come across so far? We've talked about all the shiny stuff right now. That's the fun stuff to talk about. It's not fun to talk about like, well, I didn't sleep and I struggled to pay my mortgage and I bootstrapped the whole thing and my savings went to zero and we didn't turn a profit for 18 months. That non-sexy part is super interesting to me. Oh, it is to me too. And that's been what's, you know, it's fun because I'm sure you can testify to this and anyone that's listening to this that listens to other podcasts, especially that like are more startup related. Like there's only so much that you can learn from listening or reading. And then once you start to do it, like things begin to really, really take shape. You know what I mean? And you begin to really formulate more opinions after like you hear something, have an hypothesis and do it. then what you know, it may fail, may succeed, etc. But you learn so much more by doing and I just, that's one of the things that really stands out to me over the court over the past, you know, three years of our journey with Juve is that, man, I mean, if you've got a like a hypothesis that seems to make sense and you have some sort of like informed rationale for it, like just do it and learn from it, right? Right or wrong, just learn from it and try to, and it sounds cliche, but really trying to fail fast as possible. Not that you want to intentionally fail, but experiment as fast as possible. And so, yeah, so back to your original question, we've been able to, fortunately, we've been able to bootstrap Juve entirely, you know, which is a pretty big deal especially with a you know a physical product that you know with relatively high cogs that's been it's been it's you know it's taken some diligence and some and some planning but like you know Justin the engineer behind kind of this largely behind you know the design of our products you know he's been you know he's really a you know just like most engineers are very very very prescriptive about forecasting and running logistics so he's very good when it comes to that which has been you know instrumental as we've tried to scale up keep back orders to a minimum but also not have to like you know it's not like we just raised around you know a seed round of a million bucks and have a ton of capital poured into products. So it's been a, it's been a, it's been, it's been, it's been careful.


Muscle Recovery (21:39)

It's been, I'd like to think it's, it's been pretty strategic, pretty strategic growth, but at the same time we've grown pretty fast. So it's, it's been, you know, it's been an interesting ride, you know, from that, from that perspective. Well, it sounds like it. And that ride just keeps to me getting sweeter where you just launched. So last Friday, last Monday, your I call it your newest device. Yeah. Handheld. It's Juve Go, right?


Juve Vacuums (22:00)

know anywhere you anywhere you go but unlike our modular devices that we have a sort of that's our core franchise this modular concept where you can buy a device and then add to it over time kind of similar to Lego Lego blocks with it with the end goal of you know eventually building out a full-body system that's kind of our core kind of our core franchise but yeah this this product that we just recently released last week is the Jugo it It's not modular, but it's a really cool product in the sense that it's completely handheld. It's wireless and rechargeable, so you don't need to plug it in anywhere. It's got the same power as our large devices, which took a fair amount of, I don't want to call it an engineering feat, because it's not like we're building Tesla batteries, but it is harder than it maybe looks to build, you know, to build a wireless device that could deliver that kind of power. So yeah, we're pretty excited about, about that particular product, especially considering that the price point and you know, for people that are new to light therapy and they're kind of like, you know, I've heard enough people talk about the benefits. I don't want to like go all in yet. I just kind of want to try it out. It's a really cool product because it's a, you know, it's, it's, it's pretty affordable and, and it's, it's, it's, it's cool in the sense that you can take it. You really can take it. It's super convenient. You can take it anywhere you go because of the concept of, or because of the fact that it's wireless and rechargeable. Well, and Scott, only because you brought it up, like when you say it's somewhat affordable, like this is a, the perfect time to plug where someone can buy it and how much it costs.


Clinically Proven Wavelengths (23:41)

It's a good barrier to entry. I encourage you as you're listening to press pause on this. I know it's J-O-O-V-V.com. That's how you spell Juve. Go there and find it. But uncouple what the price point is and kind of the tiered system, if you would. Because you had to have done market research. I'll tout this for you. There's other red light devices that are out there from, I'll say, some reputable companies. I'm not going to name names or knock them, but when you start to look at the power and output of what you've created versus what the marketplace holds, I personally couldn't find another company that mimics what you have done. I don't want to knock it or name names. It's not really that important, but I guess I'm, if you're curious, like the, the solo that I have in the office or the elite system I have at the house, like it's metal, it's, it feels like industrial slash medical quality. Like for me to lift up the six panels, like I'm still 260 pounds. Like I'm a, I'm a big, strong guy. And it took every bit of strength I had in my body to hold these six panels up and Mount them on the on the stand Like your stuff is incredibly high quality and high powered. So what are what are the tiered steps? Like how does it work inside juve? Yeah. Yeah so so I mean I guess I'm trying to unpack that in a way that's that's helpful for the listener too because What I mentioned those three things that were really important from us from the get-go is high power, like a high power device. And really the benefit to the end user is they don't have to use it very long. They can use it in a relatively short amount of time and reap the wide ranging benefits that come with light therapy. So high power, clinically proven wavelengths, right? So that's kind of barrier to entry in my opinion. And then the third was just this concept of full body light therapy and since we launched there's a couple other you know like a full body LED bed that have kind of come to the market but being quite honestly that they're so expensive and I would argue that you know you know in full disclosure I'm obviously biased but I would argue our technology is actually better than those and those beds are you know upwards of anywhere from sixty to a hundred and twenty thousand dollars And so, you know super high price way way out of the question for you know, 99% of the population So those three things that are really important us, especially the full-body concept and that's kind of why I mentioned that that modular design That's kind of our core franchise is is this this modular design where you can start out with a smaller panel is this modular design where you can start out with a smaller panel, right, and try it out. And then if you like it and begin to believe in the full body benefits of light therapy, you can buy another panel and add to it.


Juves networking (25:58)

And they're all backwards compatible and they connect together physically, but they also connect together either through a hard wire pairing kit or through Bluetooth. So you can, one panel or one device can control the whole system so like that that fits right in with our core thesis as a company and that we want to make full body we want make we want to make full body light therapy accessible for everyone and through that mod that module design allows most people to do that the only downside is that the entry entry point into that module of design from a price point perspective is 695 that's still a decent investment for most people. I mean myself included. And so knowing that and knowing that we want to begin to reach more people that they're a little bit later in the adoption curve with light therapy. There's so much science to support it. It's just the onus is on us to really raise awareness for the science and deliver a product that's you know meets all the quality guidelines that we have as a company but also at a a price point that can is more affordable for most people to like, you know, you know, take take us take a test drive with so to speak. And so that's what that juve go or that handheld device allows us to do is, is it's a cool product completely wireless and rechargeable. That's probably the most exciting thing to me about it. But it's only 295. So if you're new to this and want to want to try it out, most people that are listening to this could probably afford 300 bucks. There's still a trial period with that device as well. It's not as lengthy as our 60-day trial period with our modular devices, but there's still a 14-day trial period. If you open it up and use it and return it within the 14-day trial period, there's a small restocking fee, but it's very minimal. You can still try it out if you want. And I think that's pretty cool. Yeah, so if you want to learn more about all of those different options, you just go to juve.com, J-O-O-V-E.com, and click on the shop link. And there's almost like a little configurator that kind of walks you through what do you want to start out with, targeted therapy or full body. I hate to sound like a product pitch. That's about us. But I think anyone that's listening to this, you mentioned there's other quality devices on the market. There's no doubt. But I would, if I'm new to this space, I would probably look for a few things from any company that you're researching is one, do they deliver the right wavelengths, right? That's again, I mentioned that that's kind of entry into the game. You don't wanna be using a device that delivers wavelengths that are unproven and have no benefit.


Juves third-party testing (28:26)

So start there, that's pretty basic. And then two, this is probably the most trickiest aspect is, what is the power output from the device that my body actually receives? And so this is not like rated wattage. This isn't like screwing in a 250 watt infrared heat lamp into a, you know, into a socket that that's consumed wattage. That's not like the wattage that in the form of jewels that's actually delivered from the device. And this gets pretty technical. And, but we've got a great post or article on our website that goes into, into more detail if you want to learn about this, but all of our devices across the board are third party tested by one of the most reputable, uh, photodiagnostic companies in the world. So it's not us as a company saying our devices deliver X, Y, and Z. It's like, no, I mean, we know they do based on our testing and what we've submitted to FDA, but like, here's a third party that, that, that we paid for. Right. And it's completely independent. This is what the data what the data that they come back to us with. And so that's, I think what's important for most users is like, you know, I'd like to say that you can trust the company and what they say their devices, you know, deliver in terms of the specs, but it's always good to look for independent third party data. And I think that's one of our big, I mean, we always try to go above and beyond from a science perspective and also from a kind of an independent data perspective and you know that's really important to us. Like don't trust us. Here's third party data that will tell you exactly what, I mean this is what we're basing our claims off of. So you know, so yeah, so I think that's really important for anyone listening that's beginning to do research is making sure that the device delivers the right wavelengths, making sure that the device delivers an adequate amount of power that allows for short treatment times that's ideally supported by third party data. And then also, you know, I mean, full body light therapy is we, there's some people that disagree with this maybe, but I think it's hard to disagree that full body light therapy is best. And so, you know, is that a product that allows to disagree that full body light therapy is best. And so, you know, is that a product that allows you to do full body light therapy over time? Or is it kind of more like a one and done sort of deal where you can't add onto it, you know? And so, you know, that's, you know, that's coming from my perspective, but I think that's helpful. Those are some helpful tips to look for, you know, for anyone that's, you know, researching our products or others on the market is kind of look for those three basic things.


Direct Competition And Pricing Strategies In Red-Light Therapy

Don Scott Clarifies the Competition in the Red-Light Therapy (30:32)

Well, yeah, I love the very political way you were able to answer that question. So I'll do the non-political answer from my side. I geek out on this stuff because of, in my opinion, Juve's success. And this is 100% my opinion. Now there's these pop-up companies that are coming out that have a reputable name behind them that are saying they have red light therapy and you do the research. And it's almost going back to the initial thing that your company was founded off of which is the led red light therapy that doesn't have the right wavelengths it doesn't have the right power you're still paying somewhere between four and six hundred bucks for even a a little mobile unit right they're companies that have a good name behind them right so i don't want to disparage any of them but as i look at this it's like there's very specific reason. Like nothing that you have done is by chance and you're not doing it. Like you're the market innovator, which I think is always important. Like you had the big cojones to step out and say like, we're going to kind of lead the charge on this in the consumer space. And it's very usual to me. Okay. Proof of concept has already existed. You've got market research that's showing that, okay, people want it. You're the first adopter as far as a retail component. And now all of a sudden, it's okay. Well, Juve's everywhere in their success. So now there's like the termites that come flying in to try to eat the wood. And the quality from having been able to play with some of these units is just not the same, right? And again, I want to reiterate, I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm not paid. I generally enjoy this conversation, Scott, because it's it's just truthful. Right. Admittedly, I wouldn't be chatting with you if your product was shit. Like it just doesn't matter to me that much. Like I can tell the care and the passion that you guys put into the product. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I you nailed it. I mean, just to get even more granular with that. Yeah. I mean, of course, we're seeing a lot more fast followers. We sort of suspected this. It's happening a lot faster than even we expected. But you're right. I mean, on that note, like some of this most recent third-party data that we have, we bought everyone's devices and we sent them and paid for all of that third-party testing.


How Pricing Directly Affects The Quality of Light Bodies (32:38)

It's like we have some pretty sophisticated testing equipment, not the stuff that you can buy for $200 on Amazon. It's like this stuff is like five figures expensive. And we have that gear and we do our own tests, of course. But it's like, well, this is what we suspect is going to be the same when we send it to this third party. And sure enough enough it is. And so yeah, I mean you could invest in a, you know, I mean full admission like our devices are a little bit more expensive than you know competitor A, B and C. But you know that's kind of, I mean that's sort of what you see every day in the marketplace, right? I mean you know if we're allocating a lot of budget towards independent data, independent third party testing, education, and you know, most companies that are, you know, are fast following, they don't do that. And I, we think it's pretty important for anyone making a four or $500 investment plus, you know, to have that in place. And you know, most fast followers, you know, don't have that, you know, there's definitely, I mean, from a business perspective, there's definitely some value in fast following. I mean, like Mark Zuckerberg on Facebook does that all the time, right? Some app gets early traction, they copy it really quick. You know what I mean? So there's definitely some value, but when it comes to a physical product that's regulated, I mean, light therapy is a regulated space by FDA. And so you kinda need to take that seriously for a company. So we'll see how long some of these, some of these, these players last, but, you know, from our, like it's, it's, it's somewhat disheartening, you know, but, but, but mainly because we think it devalues light therapy, right? I mean, if you have a lot of wonky competitors that aren't, aren't invested in the space and really raising awareness for the real science behind it, you know, it just kind of, I mean, people are naturally skeptical about it. So it kind of, it just devalues the whole space in my opinion. And so that's, that's probably the more disheartening thing when we're, we're taking the opposite stance and really, really pouring a lot of money into, into education and, and really trying to, you know, raise more awareness for the power of light and specifically, you know, you know, red and near infrared light. So yeah, it'll be interesting to kind of see how that evolves. But as a consumer, bias aside, I mean, I really fundamentally think those, you know, looking out for those three things, right? Power, wavelengths, and, you know, treatment area, you know, are pretty key. And you mentioned it earlier with even like the Juve Elite system that you have, you can't, I mean, because some of these competitors are like, they're showing images of like standing. If you stand two feet away, you get full body therapy. And it's like, that couldn't be, that's so far from the truth. It's like, it's almost hard to stomach looking at an image like that. Because if you look at the power dosages that your body receives from any high power device, it dramatically falls off at six inches, honestly, but even more so at 12 to 18 inches. It's so, it becomes like not even really a therapeutic dose anymore at that distance. And so, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of kind of spammy stuff like that that's just not rooted in real science at all. And it's, I don't know, I guess any company's gonna experience that at some point. But yeah, I don't know, I guess any company is going to experience that at some point. But yeah, I mean, that's why kind of the independent third-party testing is really important from our, you know, based on kind of how we see the space. And so, you know, I think it's important for anyone making that investment to kind of look at that hard data. Well, yeah. And I love the fact that you guys have taken, as you've made mention, almost a polar opposite approach. Like if you were to right now, as you're listening, go to juve.com. You see it. Everything Scott's talking about is literally plastered on their website. If you want to see articles that aren't written by Juve, if you want to see third party research that doesn't have Juve's name on it, like they literally link to it on the site. It's not like this nebulous, like, oh no, we're saying it's good. And here's the articles that we wrote to prove that it's good. It's like, here's all the research that exists in the world for the good and kind of even some of the in-between, right?


Marketing (36:28)

There's a fairly unbiased speckling. I shouldn't say unbiased, right? It's a little biased for the fact of the stuff that you have works. So we can have bias towards success, right? I think that's okay. But I love the fact that you, who's the marketing genius behind Juve? I got to ask, is that more your wheelhouse as it pertains to the business itself? Well, yeah. I mean, like as a kind of a co-founding team, like I mentioned earlier, Justin is the engineer behind – and any engineer is usually really good at physics. And photobiomodulation is grounded in physics. I mean, there's no doubt about that. I myself am a biology guy. So I love to look at mechanisms of action at a cellular level. But physics like that was like that was that was harder for me than organic chemistry, you know, in undergrad. So like Justin's been great from like a kind of a design and device build perspective. And really, obviously the logistics and operations and yeah, my sort of my purview of Juve is for all things commercialization. So marketing and sales. Yeah. Well, I love it, because then pouring into you and saying, like, to go to this website, Juve and see not only the look, the feel, the clean, like I get, there's almost paralysis by analysis for me with all the stuff that's like in the biohacking space. And I'll still look at your stuff as biohacking to some capacity because it's not widely adopted yet, right?


Juves website (37:49)

This is kind of an early adopter marketplace in my opinion still. Like there's education, but you're on the forefront of pushing the education, right? Like over and over and over again. Like it takes multiple clicks from a marketing aspect, from owning a marketing company. Like I teach everybody, you've got to have a call to action above the the fold. You got to make sure there's an easy way to buy. And so much of your site is walking people down a path of education, what serves their needs the best way, and then eventually getting probably, what, three, four, five clicks in before you're even presented with the opportunity to make a buying decision. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. There's still areas of improvement when it comes to our site for sure. I mean, we have a pretty robust kind of roadmap in terms of stuff that we're either changing or we want to A-B split test, et cetera. So, but yeah, there's all kinds of different things that we wanna improve upon. But yeah, I mean, education is important to us and we fundamentally believe that most people aren't going to it's not a it's not a transactional sale for us so you know if you look at CRO on our site yeah it is important at a high level but like most most people that hit you for the first time aren't buying on the same day you know what I mean it's they're coming back multiple times and multi-touch attribution with a business like ours is super it's super hard because light therapy is is new to most people so there's the education component and there's also the price point component. Most people aren't going to just on a whim buy a, you know, a thousand dollar, you know, unit, you know, they're going to do a little bit of research, come back. And so, yeah, so there's some strategy there, but also there's some like some intuition there about like just kind of understanding, you know, sort of the general pathway for most people. But, you know, it's been a big challenge for us as a company because light therapy is, serves such a broad demographic. From our perspective, it's literally, it's the 22 year old dude that heard someone talking about testosterone and they're all in, they're like, Oh, man, I'm getting it. I want to get I want to get huge. Then there's the 75 year old grandma that has an arthritic knee and you know, her, you know, her, her kids want to buy, you know, want her to stop taking medications and use light therapy instead. So it's super, super broad and so that makes it very hard from a commercialization standpoint, a marketing standpoint because our avatars, our personas are so different. So yeah, that's the kind of stuff that we're always trying to improve upon and get better at. We don't want to be just the light therapy for dudes. We don't want to be light therapy just for aesthetic and beauty. We kind of want it to be overall wellness, but that is kind of a general bucket. You know what I mean?


Handling the marketing and retargeting campaigns internally (40:09)

So yeah, I'm sure the look and feel of Juve in six months is going to continue to evolve. You know what I mean? But that's the sign of a good company, right? Yeah, sure. Scott, are you guys handling marketing a hundred percent internally and I'm leading it on a pass so this is not to set you up or do you have an outside firm because I'm curious before I say the because yeah yeah well I know I mean so so no we don't we don't work with we don't work with any any digital marketing agencies and all our marketing agencies as a whole I spent some time in marketing agencies and there's good ones there there's bad ones of course, but yeah, we don't, we do use a lot of sort of handpicked freelancers, some kind of what I would consider boutique shops, but there's not like kind of these big agencies. And so no, we handle nearly everything internally. I love that because your retargeting campaign on both facebook and instagram is ridiculous like the different videos that show up the different follow-up sequence like literally your pixel placement for me going to juve all the time right and like seeing knowing how that's working behind the scenes and then to see it come up in the feed and to see like when the juve go comes out like how i'm getting targeted for that it's brilliant so whoever is doing that whoever's responsible for that, I personally love it. Like, That's awesome. I'll have to give, we do use a freelancer there. So Ethan, if he's listening to this, he's a, he's awesome. Actually, I mentioned Andrew Warner with Mixergy. Like he's good friends with Andrew and works a lot with him. So obviously that's a huge, I trust that to a large degree, you know, from my perspective. So no, he's great. And like remarketing is interesting. I mean, we, we, we like, we don't allocate a lot, a lot of our budget towards, you know, traditional paid media. It's actually very, very low considering if, if, if, if we had outside financial counsel, look at our, our, our books, they'd, they'd actually think we're probably way under spending. That sort of is in line with the rest of our strategy, but you know, retargeting or remarketing is a big part of that. But there's all, you know, various complexities. We don't want people to be fatigued, you know, about seeing the same ad and we want to deliver different educational, you know, sort of aspects through that journey. We don't deliver remarketing, you know, we're not gonna deliver remarketing creatives across the entire web, you know what I mean? So yeah, I mean, it's intent, you know, I'd like to think it's pretty intentional across the entire web. You know what I mean? So yeah, I'd like to think it's pretty intentional right now with what we're doing. Well, it's phenomenal. Like I said, I'm biased because I love the machine.


Juves marketing strategy (42:33)

I'm biased because I love the story. But trying to remove that bias as I look at it, there's so many companies that do it so poorly. But to see anything from a talking head video to a product placement video, to see what has to be the high quality score inside of Facebook, I geek out on the marketing side of things. It's just like, you guys are literally killing it. It's so refreshing to see somebody that's not just beating you over the head with the same boring message every time. No, that means a ton coming from you, especially with your background in digital. That really means a lot. Maybe we won't get into the next call, but I'd love to hear your critiques too. Like, Scott, you guys need to do this, this, and this. Yeah, I mean, that's what – I love hearing that stuff. I mean, like that's probably some of the best feedback we get is like – everyone likes to hear positive, but like if someone's thought about what we're doing or where we messed up and has actually thought about that, it's like, hey, you did X, Y, Z. I mean, I love that stuff. I mean, those are the – you know, those are areas that – I mean, I think across the board in every function of our company, we're doing a pretty good job. Customer service, as you can imagine, can be pretty difficult with red light therapy being new for most people. This modular aspect creates some technical stuff and they do a phenomenal job of managing that. We actually think customer service, we view customer service as a growth engine for a company. And so, so yeah, I mean, across the board, I'd like to think like, you know, we're, we're, you know, the wheels are starting to really fire, you know, on, on all cylinders. So yeah. Yeah, of course. Well, how many, so that brings up just a random question. How many calls do you get in customer service that on the panels themselves, not every light bulb looks like it lights up. They do of course, like I understand the science behind it, but if you're listening, when you buy your device, which I heavily encourage you to do, when you get the panel, not every light is as bright glowing red, right? Because there's the infrared and the near infrared, is that essentially the difference?


The Foundation And Vision For Juve

Infared light in Juve packs (44:19)

Yeah, it's red and near infrared. Yeah. But yeah, once you get into the infrared spectrum, those light wavelengths aren't visible to your eyes, and so you can't see them. But yeah, you're right. I mean, in fact, when we launched our modular devices, we specifically placed, and I'm not sure if the ones that you got had these on there, but we've since kind of iterated a little bit on this, but we had product stickers that you could remove that called that out. Like, hey, these LEDs are on. You know, there's the other ones that are delivering near infrared light. It sounds kind of silly, but you know, I mean, when you think about it and try to step inside the shoes of a customer, like light wavelengths and nanometers, like, oh, that's super technical. You know what I mean? So, I could, you know, you can understand why someone may flip it on and be like, why only half of them went on? You know, that's actually still a very popular, it's one of the more popular questions understand why someone may flip it on and be like, why are only half of them on? That's actually still a very popular, it's one of the more popular questions that's searched on our site, is why is half my device lighting up? Yeah, so it's, we're aware of that.


Juve name origin (45:13)

We try to make that fairly easy to understand. I don't think it comes up as much as it used to just because we're delivering these things along the way to help with that educational aspect. But yeah, it definitely still happens. Certainly. So, Scott, where did the name Juve come from? The double O, the double V, is there a meaning behind it? Is there a story behind that? Is it just because it was an available domain? Did you pay out the nose for a domain? How did you find a single word domain that's left in this marketplace? Yeah, no kidding, right? I mean, like short.coms are so hard to come by anymore. Especially the, especially ones that are like, are semi relevant to the brand, you know, and I think most people, once they understand, oh, juve, they kind of get it like where juve is a play on rejuvenate, right? And then in essence, that's what light therapy is sort of doing at a high level with ourselves and our mitochondria it's helping it's helping us sort of rejuvenate and perform you know perform as as our cells perform as they're naturally supposed to and so uh but to answer your question no i mean we're bootstrapped so we certainly didn't pay for an expensive domain it was really the the four of us as kind of a co-founding team really just spitballing ideas. Like I personally am a big fan of.com. I didn't want to go with the.net or.io. And really the shorter the better, you know. You could argue that we wanted maybe light therapy in the domain, but I wasn't really cool with that from a branding perspective. And so yeah, I mean it was all spitballing and like sure enough, we liked the idea of some sort of, like something catchy, but like something that semi like was relevant to like what we were trying to do like from a health health um a health uh angle and so yeah juve was one of those dot coms that was you know pretty short and you know um two o's two v's i mean it's kind of i mean it's pretty easy to to get to get straight yeah so yeah it ended up working out you you know. I love it. So that brings up another question. Other than the obvious of who wants to live in Minnesota versus Southern California, was there a strategic plan to move from Minnesota to Southern California? Like what's brought that evolution for you, for the – I'd assume both families moved. Like how did that transpire? What's the thought behind that? Like probably strategic, right? Yeah. that like they're probably strategic right yeah I like to think it's probably more just something that like as as as most of the people that work for Juve wanted to spend more time in a warmer climate I mean obviously California has its downsides it's like it's not the tax rates aren't great there's ways that you can try to minimize that of course from a you know you know in in business anyway but um but yeah I think most of us kind of we all fundamentally believe that like you know natural lights good and it, in, in, in business anyway. But, um, but yeah, I think most of us kind of, we, we all fundamentally believe that like, you know, uh, natural light's good and it's hard to get that in the, it's hard to get a lot of natural light in the, in the Midwest, you know, especially Minneapolis during extended periods of time, you know, you're in a little bit better situation in central Ohio than we were in Minneapolis for sure.


Finding Proof of Concept (47:38)

I mean, you notice it, especially on the bookends of the season, you know, March and October, November, it's, it can be brutal, brutal, but, but yeah, so, so it like, that was a fundamental reason. And then, and then we were out here so much in California for just various, various conferences and various events and, and just being closer, being closer to, to see, I mean, there's so many people that are, you know, in and out of, in and out of Southern California that it's just, it's easier to, it's just easier access, easier to have those types of conversations. It's not too dissimilar to someone that's, you know, if you're a tech entrepreneur, like most people are like, you gotta be in San Francisco, you gotta be at SF for those like, you know, those impromptu meetings at coffee shops or the ability to like shake someone's hand and meet in person. I mean, it's just, and that's paid off in spades for us. I mean, it's just been really valuable to be closer to people that are here in Southern California. the right components internally, like inside the family, I'll call it, to be able to cover both sides, both the sales and marketing, the automation, but you also had the scientific background. You were able to put those together. You were able to get proof of concept very quickly and efficiently, it sounds like.


Simplifying A Complicated Business (49:13)

You then got proof of concept into the general populace, the marketplace as a whole, the consumer sector versus I'll call it more retail sector. And then you've moved to increase efficiency for scalability inside the business, right? Like that's, it's like the, the quintessential, like if you're going to write a book, like that's the entrepreneurial journey. Other than I'm waiting for the fact of like, well, we had to double mortgage our house or other than some crazy stuff, which it sounds like with the success of what you've had, you got, you were very fortunate to, I don't say miss that step, but not have to go into that part of the rabbit hole that so many entrepreneurs get stuck in because it just sounds like a lot more intelligent on the front side. We, and no, I mean, yeah, we're, we're very fortunate to be in a situation where we, we, we, we, you know, bootstrapped, uh, in essence bootstrapped, uh, you know, uh, I'd like to think it's pretty, pretty successful company at this point. Um, and didn't have to raise, didn't have to raise capital. We didn't go into that much debt early on.


Scaling the Business (50:05)

And I think it all, I mean that in my opinion comes back to like the concept of product market fit, you know, I mean, and there's a lot of nuances there. Don't get me wrong. That can get pretty complex and whatnot, but really trying to establish, you know, if you're an entrepreneur and looking to, you know, start a small business, like really establishing that And and and don't get me wrong like I'm a big fan of like Seth Godin's work and shipping early as or as fast as possible I'm not a fan in the sense of and I think sometimes this is misunderstood But like this concept of minimal viable product. I'm more in line of like you got to have a minimum sellable product but but it like Finding that product market fit and speaking to like that audience early on I think is crucial you know I mean Kevin Kelly the you know former founder of what he's the founder and I think former editor of wired like he has this you probably heard of it a thousand true fans like that that's very real I mean it's very real that if you can do if you can find product market fit and deliver that product to you know what would seem like a very small group, you can experience early success. And so, a lot of those lessons I personally have learned in previous failures, you know, and it's kind of cool that, and my wife and I talk about this a lot, it's like, it's cool to like, all of those previous failures and like experiments that I thought were just a waste of time. Like, no, they've shown themselves to be actually very valuable. You know what I mean? And that's probably one of the bigger lessons I've learned is like some of those, you know, if you're listening to this and have tried some things that haven't worked out, like, don't consider that a failure. It may not, may not have to lead to anything very tangible or practical, but it's certainly something that you've learned, you know, even listening to this podcast, you know, like one little, you know, I used to travel a fair amount, my medical device days, I listened to a ton of podcasts, but I mean, I, a lot of times I'm like, I harkened back to like just little tiny bits of information that I, I listened to, you know, five years ago. I'm like, Oh yeah, I remember that story. You know, that so-and-so said that, you know, and all that stuff is really valuable and whether, you know, whether it helps you immediately or helps you, you know, three or five years down the road, just keep it, you know, don't, don't, uh, keep it in the, in And whether, you know, whether it helps you immediately or helps you, you know, three or five years down the road, just keep it, you know, don't, don't keep it in the, in the bank. You know what I mean? And, you know, for, for use later. Yes, absolutely. So Scott, without giving away trade secrets and divulging where, where you see Juve in the next five or 10 years, I got to know, like, what is the plan?


Long term Vision for Juve Over Billion Dollar Back. (52:13)

Is this, is this eventually maybe a public company? Is this something that gets, you know, segmented out and brought into new verticals? Again, from getting to know you now over the past hour, hour and a half, there's no way this is a simple, well, we're just creating products and hanging out now. Are you comfortable sharing? I know I'm putting you on the spot. Are you comfortable sharing with that 10, 15-year vision? Because I think it's important for the listener to understand once you have product market fit, once you have profitability, once you have scale, right? What the death of most entrepreneurs that I know is that stagnation where like you just become comfortable. You've got the machine kind of ironed out and it's just kind of running. For me personally, there has to be that driving force because that's what fuels men like you and I, right? There's that push on our back where we don't even understand why we're going that direction, but we know we need more than what we have. And more does not always equate to money, right? I personally believe that money is a byproduct of energy. I believe that when you add quality and add value to the marketplace and whatever that is, that money just comes. So where are you heading? What's, what's next for Juve? Yeah. And, and, and before I answer that question, I would say like, as for anyone that's listening to this, right, like beginning to kind of, you know, maybe they've experiencing some success, success in a small business or even in maybe that they're there, they're, um, you know, wherever they're at, as you begin to build out a team, like I'm realizing personally more and more that like culture is extremely important. And know, there's a fair amount of people, influential people that like speak to that way better than I could. But making sure that like there's high level agreement on sort of the general direction of the company is like is crucial. I mean we still have, you know, we still have a lot of disagreements internally about like what that should look like and where that should go, etc. I think actually those are healthy, that's healthy to have. As long as everyone can openly say what they think and whatnot. I think those healthy disagreements are valuable, but from our perspective, we haven't really thought that far down in terms of going public or IPOing.


Market Analysis And Business Expansion At Juve

Who the Products Are Designed For, Perspectives on The Market. (54:15)

That would be something interesting for sure. What's immediate on our horizon is just to make make our products more convenient and easy to use right and I like to think there's there's good aspects of our product right now that are very easy to use like that the modular system is really cool in the sense that you know and the design and technology that went into that you know what's you know semi and even though the sessions you know are pretty short I mean we recommend generally speaking about a 10-minute treatment session but with most of our devices you're standing up right some people don't like that you know what I mean and so we're like that's definitely you know making our devices easier to use more convenient to use that's definitely a big challenge that we want to an immediate and acute challenge that we want to solve for you know sooner rather than later and then you know as we think about like market development efforts um around around light because there's you know if you kind of you know sort of uh move from from the left to the right in terms of the adoption curve most people are afraid of sunlight you know it causes cancer and et cetera et cetera i mean like it goes on and on and so that's a pretty that would be a pretty significant shift, you know, in that middle of the bell curve to get them to thinking that like, yeah, if you go out and burn your skin, of course that's bad, right? But beginning to think that light is actually a very healthy thing, you know, and that we need to be more cognizant of it. It's not, you know, it's not, you know, Satan's tool to kill us, you know what I mean? Or something odd like that. But yeah, Satan's tool to kill us. You know what I mean? There's something odd like that.


Juves Future & Partnerships (55:43)

But yeah, that's a pretty monumental shift. And so like we're continuing to like evaluate different ideas and how to best, you know, coordinate our market development efforts because market development in any capacity can be really expensive. And so, you know, and usually it's not a money-making venture in the near term. It's a long-term play. And so, yeah, so like that's definitely on our horizon is kind of like, you know, thinking a little bit more broader about how to raise more, you know, more awareness for a broader audience for sure. And then like to your point about what Juve looks like in terms of speaking to different audiences, right? Like so professional sports teams to skincare professionals to chiropractors I'm not sure exactly what that would look like I mean I think any any any any brand that begins to like really really get traction and with multiple demographics like that has to you know It has to try to answer that question is is it is it is our is our product best delivered under kind of? Subsidiaries so to speak. I don't know. I don't know. That's, that's a, probably a little bit more, that's it. That's probably a bigger challenge, a bigger challenge that, that it's hard to unwind in this, in this conversation. But yeah, that, that's a, that's kind of a high level. We've got some early, we're in early discussions with, do you know Andy Nilo with Alatorra Naturals? Andy Nilo, I don't. Jeff Lerner, He's, he'd be great to have on your show too. He's such a great guy. He's here in Southern California. But I mean, it's been fun to see him grow that brand. It's a skincare brand sourced with really, really high quality ingredients. But we'd like to do a project with him. There's actually some interesting science that supports copper in green tea. And their synergistic effects with light therapy. So in fact, one study in particular, it was a relatively small sample size, but the subjects experienced 10 times the effect and the effectiveness of light therapy when they applied green tea in advance of the treatment session. And most people think, oh, because of green tea's antioxidants or the high ORAC score, it's not actually's not actually because of the enhanced cell signal signaling that green tea provides and what that how that works synergistically with you know the cell signaling that you get from from red light therapy and so so yeah I think that that could be an interesting project what you know how quickly that comes to fruition but we really like his approach to you know building out ingredient decks with his his topicals and so that you know I'm you know if Andy's listening crossing my fingers that we can make something happen at some point. But yeah, that's kind of an interesting project that we'd like to tackle sooner rather than later too. Well, I love that. I'd love to have him on the show and we'll chat about that after we wrap this up. But that just sounds so... I love making... When entrepreneurs make the product they have more efficient and diversify into, I'll say the non-traditional partnerships. And partnership can be this broad term, but here your core competency is light, and now you're looking, what can you encapsulate around light to make it more efficient so the user experience is heightened, which is just brilliant. Instead of being so linearly focused on, we've got to make our product better, there's ancillary services that will enhance the benefit of your product. Yeah. Yeah. And it's all built, it is, I mean, that's a good point. It's all built around the user experience. I mean, we want, once people, ideally for us, I mean, it's not just for them, but even selfishly for us as a company, we want people that once they buy the product to consistently use it. Like we don't wanna see that drop off. And so, yeah, there's some interesting ways that we'll continue to track that too. Like we have an app, we haven't really overly promoted our app, it actually, it's a by the time maybe this is released, we'll have released like the probably the fourth or fifth version of it by now. But it's really cool. And that'll be interesting to see, you know, the across the world, how often people are using, you know, their juve, presuming they actually are using using the app and conjunction with it so and that app can you know can remotely control the system or the devices it tracks your historical usage it's pretty cool i mean we haven't really promoted it that much by intention but um yeah i had no idea i mean i use my unit every day and now start like i track and monitor everything i'm freakish about like every benefit as you talked about you know sleep and to me rem sleep and deep sleep are really the only things that matter. I can sleep for 12 hours and have shitty sleep. So I care about the deep cycles of sleep and the number of cycles. And combination, admittedly, at the same time I started implementing blue light blocking glasses and then the infrared therapy and red therapy. And those two variables combined increase my REM sleep now by 32% and my deep sleep by like 18%. So I'm getting deeper sleep, more high quality sleep in the same amount of time, right? I'm still getting the same six and a half, seven hours of sleep. And it's like, okay, like this really works. So it's really cool to see that part and being able to track and monitor things.


Download Juves App (01:00:21)

So now I get to download another app for the 19th or 20th app that I download this week to track and monitor something. So thank you for that, I appreciate it. No, it's cool. I mean, most people, you don't need an app to use light therapy, of course, right? But it is cool in the sense that you can control it remotely and it is compatible with like Amazon Alexa. So if you wanted to say, Alexa, I want a Jew, turn on this Jew for 10 minutes, it does function like that. But really, I think the more interesting aspect is the historical usage. You know, so you're like, Oh, yeah, I've been using, you know, I've been crushing in my light therapy, and you look and you're like, actually, I've been only using it like two days a week, you know what I mean? So I think that aspect is cool. And as we look to like, as that that data is integrated with other other apps that people use, like the aura ring, and whatnot, I think that that could be really, that could be really Yeah, there you go. That could be really interesting, like to see your red light therapy data in, you know, in the, in the aura ring app. So we'll see if they're open to that, that idea, you know what I mean? But, uh, but I think that could be cool.


Training, remote controls (01:01:10)

And it all, it all, it all harkens back to like the user experience, right? Like you don't want to be using a bunch of apps. Um, you know, you want your light therapy to be convenient and easy to use. And, you know, ideally it fits, it fits within your, your daily routine, you know, with a little bit of effort. So, yeah, I mean, that's a big focus of ours right now. Weon, I love that because for me, I've seen big success in other businesses by creating that culture, right?


Collaboration Opportunities Using Geolocation Push Notifications (01:01:33)

There's a component in the app potentially to create tribes of people that are like-minded, kind of in the same geographical location. So you start getting, I mean, at least for men, we're all a little competitive by nature, I think. I mean, that's what makes us who we are. So I don't want to be outperformed by somebody else. I want somebody else's therapy sessions to be better or longer or more frequent than mine. But I also want to be able to chat about experience, right? Like what are the additional hacks that are going on? So I have not downloaded the app. If it's not in there, my apologies for bringing up something that is not even available. But long term, maybe it's an opportunity. No, no, it is. It's actually available. I mean, for anyone listening, we're continuing to, there's phases in that app roadmap. So like the app actually, it's just to get a little bit grand, it's built on the Ionic framework right now. And like, very soon, by the end of probably Q1, we'll have native apps for iOS and Google Play, which actually allows for a lot better functionality with the device, uniquely enough. So some interesting learnings, like for me personally, because I've done very few app projects with this level of sophistication. But yeah, so yeah, it'll be cool to continue to experiment with that sort of stuff for us as a company. And really, like I said before, looking at how often people are using, looking at that data across the world, you know, and is it going up into the right? Is it plateauing? Is it declining? Hopefully not. But yeah, that'll be fun to continue to experiment there. Well, yeah. And the soft push notifications, like if you haven't used the Juve, like almost that gentle little nudge, like, hey, it's been five days. Like my muse does that. It's been three days since you've mused last like you're right like i can't run from the facts like you're yeah i need i need to jump back in and use it more yeah yeah yeah yeah there's no doubt there's there's we just haven't like as a company we haven't been overly aggressive with it because when we first launched that like it wasn't something that we were thrilled about with like there was some UI UX issues and then the two-way sync between the app and the device just wasn't up to par for us our standards anyway and so yeah like it by the time this is probably released at that next version which is like really in a really solid place and then all that'll continue to get even even better as time moves on and hopefully integrate better with other apps that you know that that that are you know our core customer base are, are, are, are using on a, on a consistent basis. Absolutely. Yeah. So Scott, my wife and I co-own businesses together, right?


Interference between Personal & Professional Life (01:03:43)

There's, there's certainly the times where disagreements happen, right? Not, not catastrophic, not like career ending or marriage ending, but like having the family component and having your, your, you know, your founder group, if you want to say of the four of you that were so close, how often have there been disagreements? How, what are the tools you've used to work through them? How does that work? Right. Cause it's even an even number, right? So if there's a boat, a vote by the board, it could still be a 50, 50 split. How does, how has that worked? How have the? Have there been a couple of pivotal disagreements? You remember the catapult of the business somewhere else? Or has it just been sunshine and roses by some fluke for the past four years of launching a business? Dude, I wish I could say it's been sunshine and roses. There's no doubt. There's been 100%. There's been struggles and challenges and sometimes very, very hard. That might, if I had to pinpoint one thing that might be the hardest is that because we're a big enough team now that it's not just family. But yeah, having family involved in a business creates a lot of different dynamics. Sometimes very good, sometimes bad. You know, good in the sense that, you know, loyalty and care factor is extremely high. And that's really, really hard to find. On the downside is that when you have disagreements, you can't just leave them at the office, right? I mean, those stay with you and then sometimes they're personal, you know what I mean? And a lot of times maybe they're personal. And so that's hard and I guess, man, that's been's been you know an interesting thing to work through You know, especially at the same time when you're you're dealt with just normal business challenges, right? Like scaling a business and where to prioritize Budget and all that stuff. Yeah, it's been it's been super challenging and I think um, you know If you ask me what what's I think my my going, you know experimenting that any continue I mean that stuff's not gonna go away. Hopefully it improves over time and and You know, things are always improving ideally, you know, experimenting that and continue. I mean, that stuff's not going to go away. Hopefully, it improves over time and, you know, things are always improving ideally, you know what I mean? But my, some of the biggest lessons I've learned is like I mentioned this one earlier is like early on trying to be on the same page with regards to what, you know, what the business should look like in, you know, six months, a year, two years from now, etc. And so. And that doesn't have to get super granular but really just trying to find at least some semblance of alignment around that. And I think as the business scales, learning that you can't be involved in everything, right? You know what I mean? And that's me personally, that can be hard. Other people that are especially very hands-on and want to drive, drive, drive, A-type personalities, sometimes personalities, you know, sometimes it's harder to let things go, you know what I mean? And so just recognizing that, you know, and knowing that it's not gonna be perfect but like, you know, hey man, as a business scales, you just cannot be involved in everything. I think that's super important. And then I think just understanding that and this is probably something I've learned especially over the past probably year, like 2018 as a whole. Like, I like business. And there's no, like, I don't have any qualms about that.


Maintaining Personal And Professional Balance In Life

Practicing Self-Compassion (01:06:50)

Like, I like startups. I like the activity. I'm not sure if you've read Zero to One, but I'm a Zero to One guy. Like, I don't, I get bored fairly easily. And so, you know, raising your hand, man. you know, at the end, yeah, I mean, and so just, just kind of like knowing that, um, man, at the end of the day, like businesses succeed and fail and like, man, time is limited. And, um, you know, if, if I'm letting something that's really challenging from a business standpoint, that doesn't mean it's not important, but like at the end of the day like it's not like I mean I don't want to be that guy you know 20 years from now my kids wish they had a better relationship with me you know while I was trying to grow a business and even though I thought I'm doing the best for you you know son or daughter you know and I've got four kids now they're they're getting older all the time but um but yeah I don't want to be that you know and so and when I say I don't want to be that that means I've got to take action on that you know what I? I've got to be like no I mean as much as easy it would be to work a little bit, you know from like, you know It's in here tonight, you know if I need no I got I got shut down It'll wait, you know and that that for me that that's hard, you know Like trying to trying to really create separation there, especially when it's work Largely that it needs to get done and there is a time constraint there, but just being cognizant of shutting the laptop down and just not doing that. Carving out time in my schedule to be more proactive with things that are more important than business. And so yeah, I think just remembering that, man. It's a healthy thing that I have to continue to remind myself of on a, on a daily basis. I love that as much, if not more than almost anything you've shared so far.


The importance of balance in our lives (01:08:30)

I'll share with you personally why I, so I have a coaching business. I call it life optimization coaching. It doesn't really matter how we look at it. We'll, we'll just call it performance. It sounds like steroids, but performance enhancement coaching, right across all areas of life. And then I'll call it my generation or our generation, right? I'm 34, 37. There's that hustle grind mentality that Gary V is known for, right? You work your 18 hours a day and you do work and you have your full-time job and then you do your passion project on the side and you transfer over. And I inherently can't say I disagree with that until a certain point, right? Where having that balance understanding, just like you said, for many of us that are, many of my listeners are 25 to 35, right? You're in the first part of your life where you're probably having kids and you're getting married. And it's so easy to say, well, like I'm building all this for our future success together. That future success won't ever come if you don't keep balance and a resemblance of balance in your life. Like you end up being 35 and divorced. Like it doesn't matter if you've got a bank account with $7 million in it. When your wife gets divorced, you're unhappy, your body is shit now, and she takes half, right? But it's almost like the plight of our generation where you want success, but what does success really mean? Like the definition of success, not from what the societal confines tell you it is, but what is your version of success? Like it sounds like yours is making sure your kids know their father and have a great relationship and making sure that you and your wife stay connected and bonded, making sure, of course, your business has success, but making sure there's balance across all areas of your life. That's the most impactful thing in the world because you as an entrepreneur with a startup company that's went from zero to a hundred, right. And not dollar value. I don't have, I could care less what you make, but zero to me to a hundred, but still knowing that that balance is important is so incredibly refreshing. I love that. No, I mean, that's, that's like my, my genuine thoughts. And like, even on a more personal level, like I, when I look at like the kind of the arc of my professional career to date, like, you know, my, has always stayed at home with our kids. And so, you know, as that sort of the breadwinner, right, I felt like the onus is on me to drive, drive, drive, I've got to provide, etc. financially, right? I think I'm providing as holistically, but it really it's within the confines of financially. And so, and the medical device arena, especially if you're driven and're ambitious and you want to kind of move up the ranks so to speak like you've got to be good and and like that Gary Vee mentality right I mean there's a big there's a like so much I appreciate about the guy and then sometimes it's like I don't know how you bet I don't know how he balances you know I don't know what his family life is like but but that's that's a mute point I mean maybe he has a great family I have no idea but but um yeah the family stuff is important to me and so so like, when I look at the arc of my career, like there was like, there's a roughly about a 10 year span and we're like, my singular focus was mostly business, even though like, yeah, my kids, you know, I have a good relationship with my kids, et cetera. It just, my, like business was clearly number one for anyone that was looking at that objectively. You know what I mean? And so, that's not, I mean, like retroactively looking at it, that's not great for my, based on my value system. You know what I mean? Like, and I have to be, like, I fundamentally feel this way, just like I would view an initiative in a business framework. Like I have to be intentional about my stuff in like on the other side, right?


My fast evolution (01:11:39)

Like if I'm going to carve out more time in my, like if I want to spend more quality time with my kids or like help them with their school, like that means like in my calendar from this time slot, I'm not doing work. I'm gonna be helping them. You know what I mean? And that's what, those are kind of the steps that I have to take, but like the whole concept of being just very intentional about it. Yeah. And really this past year, I mean, 2018 was really a kind of an eyeopening year for me from that standpoint where it's like I don't, like money has never been a motivation to me in that sense. I'm not a car guy. I don't want to like a lot of stuff like that. But freedom. And I love, like I like to win and I like to see things go from zero to one and begin to, you know, begin to see traction there like from a business standpoint. But at the same time, that doesn't, like, I also really want to have a good relationship with my wife. And I want my kids to like really value their dad. And, you know, when they're older, and they start having kids. And so that's really important to me. And that wasn't working, you know, if that's not working, if business is my sole priority, you know, and it was kind of for like, you know, roughly about a 10 year period of of time and so yeah that was that was a a big lesson learned and i'm not going to say like by no means am i perfect at it now but it's definitely i'm definitely taking like intentional steps to you know to improve upon that you know what i mean and whether i don't i'm not i don't know i haven't really the whole work life balance thing and you know what that looks like but you know whatever your opinion on that, if you do value the non-work aspects of your life and those relationships, you do have to, it can't just be a want, I want to improve on them. It has to be like, what are you doing to improve upon that?


Scheduling Your Life and Balancing (01:13:16)

You know what I mean? And so, yeah, that's been a good lesson learned in 2018 and I hope to continue to improve on that stuff, you know, moving forward. Yeah. And Scott, have you found, like, I know that I found that as I schedule things on my calendar, like I take my wife out on a date once a week, like it's a non-negotiable. We have, I call it a bonus daughter, a stepdaughter, however you want to say it. But a daughter for me, like I take her on a date once a week and then I take the both of them on a date. I found in those days where I commit to that, it's on my calendar. Those days in the office are more efficient, right? Cause it's that time and attention. Like I, I don't get distracted by the monotonous shit that goes on every day. Cause it's like, I have to be walking out the door at five Oh five a day. It can't be five, 10, like it five Oh five. So that means my day has to get condensed down. And it's almost like I push harder. Am I alone in that? Or are you the same? There's no doubt. And then then like some people can view that as like you're just being too anal about your calendar but if it's for a reason, like no, I mean, I'm not gonna take the next meeting because it's an hour that I can't have to work on the stuff that I needed to have because this other thing is actually the most important thing that I wanna do. And so, yeah, I mean, it's like, you know, those are some of the steps that I, you know, I'm starting to take even more, it's just being more scrutiny, you know, those are some of the steps that I, you know, I'm starting to take even more. It's just being more scrutiny, you know, having more scrutiny on my calendar and saying no, like I can't take another meeting. Like we just, there has to be a different way to do this because I can't do that. You know what I mean? And so this is the time slot I've carved out. Like it's not changing. So, you know, can you move that time slot? You know what I mean? So, so yeah, I mean that's, but, and some people, I don't know, I've never agreed with someone who would view, you know, your, the example that you just shared and said, well, that, that's not genuine. Like, I think it's actually like, that's, that's like, that's the best thing, right? Like you have to carve, you have to like, unless you just have exited and just can do whatever you want, I guess, and have all the free time in your world in the world that like most people don't do that. So you have to be, you have to take those necessary steps for those things that are, you know, are important in your life. And you know, if you're not cognizant of that, like I was for, you know, not that I wasn't cognizant but it wasn't just, it wasn't a reality in my life. You know what I mean? And so under the skies that I had to provide financially, you know, for my family. So I think it's just, you know, being, taking an honest look at your life, you know what I family so I think it's just you know being taking an honest look at your life you know what I mean and there is this this podcast I was listening to recently where this guy he shared that on on a consistent base I can't remember if it was like a monthly basis where he'll take someone out to do breakfast or lunch together like some a close friend and they'll say he'll ask the question what am I doing wrong or critique my critique what I'm doing like honestly and he doesn't say anything back it's it's like it's a it's a one it's truly a one-way conversation and he's writing everything down and that's it I mean it's you know there's no there's no two-way there's no like well I'm doing this or ifs or buts or whatever and I thought like that was that was pretty impactful like that's that's a really healthy thing that I'd like to start I'd like to start implementing you know it kind of kind of makes me scared a little bit you know can I can I use a rebuttal is a room for rebuttal for me but like that's a good that's a good thing man just someone objectively saying I think you're doing this this and this wrong and then you you can't say anything you just have to write it down and you know consider it you know I mean so mm-hmm yeah I think that's that's a good good little thing that I picked up on recently well i love you sharing that and then what i found scott by holding that time and space is it's forced me to delegate more right because those meetings


Facing the Truth (01:16:24)

those things still have to exist i i start holding more time and space on my calendar of what's really what is something that i physically have to be the one on the phone for versus what can somebody else handle that i was teaching like convincing myself i'm the only one that can handle that so it's caused you know scale and different levels of i'll call it the hierarchy inside of my company or companies based off necessity right because when my punch out time is 505 and when i commit to get home like my phone is literally just not around because if my i just find what call power, passion and production in my family, right? If, if I don't feel the love and like connection with them, it's kind of like, what am I doing any of this shit for? Like, yeah, no doubt. Yeah. So totally true. Yeah. So Scott, if you were to leave the listener with one lesson, like one gift to take away from our entire time together, just from your life as a whole, it can be anything.


The One Lesson Learned For Your Life (01:17:15)

We can be business related. It can be entrepreneurial related. It can be entrepreneurial related. It can be startup related, like whatever you want. What would that one gift be that they could take away? Oh, I'm sure you get this response a lot, right? Like, oh, what would that be? What would that one thing be? I mean, we talked about it already and I'll just probably continue to theme it. Can you do a theme like at, you know, when our lives are over, everything over everything goes back in the grave man everything goes back in the box you know and nothing is we're not taking any of that stuff you know any any any material things or whatnot so like I you know on this note regardless of you know we've talked a lot about business but you know some about you know health and light in particular but I think because that's such a personal thing for me you know you know especially more recently I just think that's such a personal thing for me, you know, especially more recently, I just think that's super healthy for anyone, you know, to consider. And there's a little bit of a, that feeds into how we view our health, right, too, because if you're eating terrible and not like practicing like good habits, you're not gonna, I mean, you're just fundamentally not gonna be able to spend quality time with people that you know, that you care about or do the things that you want to, you know? So certainly a health aspects to it, but like overarching the one thing it's like, man, everything goes back in the box at the end of the day. So just, you know, keep that in mind. That'd probably be the one thing. And if there, if there's a one B, like get, be more cognizant of natural light, get some more natural light, you know, on a, just be, be more aware of that, you know? And, um, that means, you know, picking up a light therapy device, do your diligence of course, but like, no, you know, what, you know, rule number one, just, just be more aware of that stuff. You know, it's like, it's not, it's not too dissimilar to how to macronutrients and the proteins, carbs, and fats that we consume. You gotta, you gotta start thinking about light in that, in that same framework. Yeah. And I'll, I'll add to Scott's, right. You know, rule number one, I'll go rule number 1.5. Do yourself a favor and just buy a Juve light. The investment's worth it multiple times over. From what I'm sharing from 27 days into the treatment and therapy, I can't wait to see what 60 days and 90 days look like.


Concluding Remarks

Closing Remarks (01:19:17)

It's just so impactful. So Scott, I sincerely appreciate all the time, all the gifts, all the energy that not only you pour into Juve, but also you poured into me and then the listeners that are on the other end of the mic. So thank you so much for your time today. I sincerely appreciate it. No, absolutely. Thanks again, Ron. Really, really enjoyed the conversation. I mean that sincerely. My pleasure. So as you're listening, go to J-O-O-V-V.com. That's Juve. O O V V.com. That's Juve. It's Juve social is your Instagram handle as well. I post literally every day and somebody inside of your incredible organization, like repost what I post every day. Like I'm a habit based guy. So it always feels good to get that, get that shout out from a company. So yeah, our social team does it. I think they're doing it. They're doing a great job of, of, uh, of trying to engage, engage the trying to engage the broader Juve community. You know what I mean? But yeah. But if you want to go to our site and you're into the science, go to the learn page. Tons of educational information there that's all sourced by published peer-reviewed research. And if you just, if you want to stay high level and like what are, I heard Ryan's thoughts and obviously, you know, he's been using the Juve. But if you want to hear other people's thoughts, go to our reviews page. And that's kind of interesting scroll, you know, he's been using the jupiter You don't hear other people's thoughts go to our reviews page and that's kind of interesting scroll You know just to see people in their own words and we post all the reviews there Like it's not there's a lot of there's a I mean some people say like they're all they're all near five stars Well, it's not I mean we those are all the we publish every one of them, you know And so you can you can read Susan some people that didn't have the best experience either But like that's a really good place to start too if you wanna start more high level and just get an idea of what other people think, you know, objectively about red light therapy and our products in particular. I love it. Thanks again, Scott. Appreciate your time and look forward to seeing you on Southern California. Awesome, thanks Ryan.


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