2023: The Year the Influencer Bubble Burst (ft. Infinite Scroll Podcast)
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Introduction To Infinite Scroll Podcast
Meet the Infinite Scroll podcast - (00:00)
Hey you guys, Kokomoko here, and today's episode is going to be about some of the biggest moments that happened in 2023, kind of in like the influencer world, and how I think that it's going to change the industry, and the effects that we will feel in the future. And I have a very special guest. I reached out to them when I was fangirling when they were down to collab. It is Infinite Scroll. They are one of my favorite podcasts. I was telling them like I listen to them whenever I'm driving up to LA to film. And I just think that they have such a great way of delivering information and then giving their own thoughts without ever, again, like you know me, never dogpiling or being mean or anything like that. They're just very thoughtful and offer great insights. So on their episode, we did a whole deep dive into Mikaela Noguera and her career, the highs and the lows and kind of what we think about it. Something interesting to me about Mikaela Noguera is I think she was one of the first ever makeup influencers to blow up on TikTok. And so she's made mistakes, but I also think she has no one to like look to, like she was kind of the pioneer in a way. And I think that that reflects in some of the decisions that she's made and mistakes that she's made. And we go into all of that on the Infinite Scroll podcast. Their episode already came out, so you guys can listen to it. I'm going to have them linked in the show notes in my description. And then for this podcast, we talk about not only the Michaela Lashgate situation, we also talk about Ruby Frank and Colleen Ballinger. And then for this podcast, we talk about not only the Michaela Lashgate situation, we also talk about Ruby Frank and Colleen Ballinger. And we talk about the Dylan Mulvaney fallout that happened with Bud Light and a couple other topics. So I'm really excited for you guys to hear this episode and just, I would love to continue the conversation in the comment section of my YouTube channel. If you guys have any thoughts. Also, continuing the conversation in the reviews if you're listening on podcast. We are at like 300 something reviews. I'd love to hit 500 reviews by the end of the year. I think we're actually going to be at like 400 something if I include Spotify and Apple. But I am so appreciative to you guys for the recent growth that the podcast has had. Thank you so much. Share it with a friend who loves marketing and pop culture as much as we do. And as always, if you want to continue the conversation with me as well, I will link out the Discord. That is where me and like 300 of you guys talk about trending topics, influencer news, changes to platforms like TikTok's algorithm. And again, I made the Discord because I was annoying my friends and family with how much I wanted to talk about pop culture and influencer stuff. And I was like, I need to have a group chat just dedicated to this. So you can find that in the show notes and description. My boyfriend is nodding yes, thank goodness. Let me know in the reviews, in the comments of YouTube, what other podcasters you would love me to collaborate with i have some ideas of my own and people that i've been talking to behind the scenes that i'm going to do videos with that i think you guys will be really excited to see thank you so so much and i will see you on the other side following the rise of tick tock in 2020 and the lower barrier to entry to becoming an influencer we saw an influx of creators rise to the top faster than we'd ever seen with youtube but does that mean that the bubble will eventually burst today we are examining some of the biggest stories from 2023 that will become benchmarks in the timeline is the influencer world with one of my favorite podcasts I'm fangirling infinite scroll with Lauren and Jordan I'd love if you guys just intro to yourself really quick and like let them know who you guys are and and where they can find you yeah for sure so my name is Jordan um I'm a co-founder of Centennial World the Gen Z media company and then Lauren and I also co-host and co-founded together Infinite Scroll podcast, where twice a week we talk about kind of all the viral news in internet culture, the creator economy. We normally do a viral news episode on Tuesday and then a deep dive on Thursday. And you can find us on YouTube, TikTok, any platform, essentially, you know, how it is across everything. Yes. We are all up in that like YouTube, TikTok, internet culture drama. Yes. You guys have, I was telling you on your podcast, which if you guys listening, if you guys go over, I feel like these episodes actually are so cohesive, but we talked about on their podcast, the rise and potential fall of Mikaela Noguera and just where we think some of the moments that she's gone wrong and where she's gone right and what we think the future looks like for her so if you guys want to listen to that we talk about it on your podcast Infinite Scroll and you guys are really like one of my favorites I was telling you that I whenever I'm like driving up to LA, I love when you guys put out a new episode because that's like, it's like an hour drive for me. And then I just listened to your guys' podcast. So the parasocial relationship is strong. But so speaking of Mikayla, I'm just going to roll right into the first, I think was like a really pivotal moment, which was, and it happened in January.
Discussion On Social Media And Popularity
Mikayla Noguiera’s Lashgate - (05:00)
Cause I remember it happened. I was staying at this hotel for work at Disneyland and the Michaela Lashgate thing happened. And I wanted to record my first episode of my podcast. And I was like, this is the perfect topic. And I recorded it in a hotel room by myself at like 11 PM on voice memo. memo um yeah yeah a little bit of history um but I'm sure everyone listening knows exactly what happened so I don't want to like go into too much detail if you listen to my podcast you've probably known but it was basically where she was called out by the internet in January of 2023 when fans clocked that she had put on fake lashes when promoting L'Oreal mascara and we go more in depth on your guys's pod but I really wanted to just ask you guys like more so in the grand scheme of like the influencer world how do you think that the fallout of this lash gate how do you think it affected just the entire influencer economy or just how influencers were seen from like the branded and traditional media perspective? I think what this did for maybe people, I think what it did was that it is, sorry, let me rephrase that. It is. Sorry, let me rephrase that. I think this situation was really interesting because it expanded beyond just like the niche of people that really like Internet culture and that keep up with the creator economy and things that are happening like this. You know, these conversations are not new. We were saying on our podcast, Michaela is by far not the first influencer to lie about a product doing what it does or even wearing false lashes. I'm sure promoting a mascara, but it felt so big because it like escaped this little niche, this little bubble, and I think it showed the world kind of the realities of influencer marketing and also the realities of brands. It was really surprising to see such a big brand, a mainstream brand like L'Oreal approve that and let that go live when she was so clearly wearing false lashes. So I think the fallout for that is actually just like mainstream consumers, just like the average person catching wind of this and realizing, oh my God, this is literally how shady this is. Well, and it makes me really sad too, because, you know, part of our job, like our publication, our podcast, it was intended to bring gravity to the internet culture space and the creator economy and help, you know, kind of speak to the way that Gen Z look up to these creators as if they were celebrities and role models and friends rolled into one and then there's all these naysayers about you know what internet culture looks like and how important it is and a circumstance like this i think really it almost proves all the people right that talk about influences and their role in society and that they're not worth the money they get they get paid and we know the true influence and power of these people. And in a lot of circumstances, they do deserve the money they get paid because they sell out more products than magazines have for a decade, right? But when this happens, it frustrates me so much that it gives, it puts a bit more stock in what all the naysayers have been saying for years and the people that don't understand internet culture. It frustrates me now because something like this makes them feel like they were right. Yeah, you guys make such good points. Like I never really thought about that, that it kind of gave legitimacy to, like I know, especially in the creator world, it in a lot of ways is like this uphill battle where you might have the metrics and the sales numbers to really speak for you but being recognized by like the traditional media and um and again like we even said it on your guys's pod i don't think she's the first one to do it in fact i'm super hyper critical of this moment for michaela and it's why I made an entire hour-long podcast talking about it because for me on the corporate side I think I felt really like resentful that I had to follow the rules at the time when it happened I was working nine to five in marketing and with ads and I think I felt so resentful that she got to cut corners and be awarded for it and and like but I do think that she probably wasn't the first one and hasn't been the last creator to maybe lie in some way and I don't condone it I think it's really bad but she really did there was just so much attention on it and it felt like one of the first times in that this happened on such a mainstream scale like Like I'm sure creators had been, you know, had cut corners in the past on YouTube or whatever, been called out for it. But this really felt like the first time that people were talking about it, like on a mainstream level. And I think that's like the power of TikTok really. And it really showed that. And like what I was saying is, I think that when this happened, there is probably a task force created at the FTC, the Federal Trade Commission, that we will not even know exists or feel the fallout of for another maybe two to three years. That was created the day that this happened or in some sort of cohesion of like, oh, this is something we need to crack down on. And I think the reason that it got kind of passed by on the l'oreal side you think l'oreal is this big company and they are and i think that was part of like the drama too is i think if it had happened at a smaller brand like p louise it wouldn't have made national news because it was l'oreal it made national news but i think that I think that the brand probably thought of her having big numbers and a big following is legitimacy and like whatever intern or you know whoever was on the back end of those emails verifying creators videos as they came through maybe felt a little bit lax or I don't know I mean it probably went through so many different people before it got posted. But I think that brands had this trust with bigger creators, that they were big because they were legitimate. And that was a big moment where it was like, that's not really the case. So I think it'll be interesting to see if we ever see like in the future, some sort of fallout in terms of like regulating and things like that because of this um situation but we yeah but we go into like such a big discussion on her and your guys's pod so um so I I was happy we did just like briefly touch on that I think it was the first big creator or the big controversy of 2023 because it happened in January um yeah I remember us coming back for our first episode of the year this year too and being like oh my goodness we of course like there was just no question about what we had to talk about and it was actually really nice that we didn't have to dig deep to find you know some drama and there's so much content back and forth around you know what that means like said. And I think sometimes we overestimate a, that big creators actually do know what they're doing and they do know how to cross all the T's and dot all the I's. Like I don't think regulations in a lot of ways, like we saw with, I'm not sure, was it with Congress and they were talking about whether or not to ban Finstar. I always bring that up because I think it's the funniest thing ever, but I think it speaks to the fact that oftentimes regulations, companies the size of L'Oreal, like we overestimate that they're up to speed with the creative industry that is moving so fast on platforms that people don't even really know how to understand or monetize yet. Like everyone's figuring it out at the same time. And I think sometimes we forget what that looks like. And I think this is kind of an example of that yeah you make such a good point I also think so much of it is like what people might not realize too I don't know if this was the case for this situation but when brands are also doing really big influencer things like this like a big campaign which you saw the same day that Michaela's video went up like Bretman Rock had a video go up, like, and we kind of talked in your guys's pod, I think maybe her exaggerating the results was maybe a little bit of competitiveness there to want to be the influencer that brought in the biggest numbers. But oftentimes, it's through ad agencies or marketing agencies that aren't even associated with the brand that, know they pay a pr company or whatever to go in and create these campaigns and so sometimes there are just like so many cooks in the kitchen um and i think that's also sometimes what happened now oh my god that's such a good point because we have had on the media side of things so many experiences with agencies that are representing a brand and we just know because we've been doing this now for a while and we're obviously in business as well we just know there is no way that that brand knows how that agency is speaking to us or what they're asking us to do and like we can kind of see through it but i can totally i totally actually i never even considered that l'Oreal could have been using an agency. Yeah, completely. Yeah. Especially because they're such a big company. Like I'm sure they don't have like boots on the ground, like every step of the way, they probably pay external things to do that. And it's like, I try to have grace with companies in that way too. I even, I had an experience with a really big brand that I love that I had on my vision board that I wanted to work with. And but it wasn't like through them. It was through an ad agency that like was reaching out to me. And like, I don't think I'll ever like discuss publicly what brand it was. I really like what happened exactly. But I they reached out to me and I basically found out that they were paying a male creator who makes very similar content to me, way more money. And I had like three times the following three times the reach. They even discussed me in their creative with including me in their video. And I, it was one of the biggest numbers I've ever seen as a creator. And I turned it down just on principle. And I felt a lot of resentment initially towards the brand because I love the brand I use it every day it's a huge household name brand and I had to reevaluate and be like it was the ad agency I didn't actually talk to anyone from the brand um and so I think sometimes having grace too that there's a lot of middlemen and sometimes when I see like brands like getting canceled for, you know, something that happens with an influencer or whatever, I'm like, it might not have even been them specifically that was working with the influencer. So, you know, just always being aware. And like that kind of contributes to the thesis of this podcast, which is like the influencer bubble. And, you know, there's, there are a lot of contributing factors that could lead to this kind of bubble bursting in some ways um one topic that i want to talk about that's also kind of like a positive but i think shows a moment that a really big tiktoker was able to shift from being known as a tiktoker to an a-list celebrity was Addison Rae this year. She released her EP AR, which was really like received very well.
Addison Rae Leaving TikTok - (15:50)
And she's also in this new movie coming out called Thanksgiving. It already came out. I want to see it, but apparently it's like pretty good. And I think that Addison is a great example of the influencer world is so volatile and people like want to be a part of it but then once they get like enough attention I think they try to pull back a little bit and go more mainstream like we see that with Emma Chamberlain for example but I'd love to know your guys's thoughts like what do you think this year kind of represented for Addison Rae and could you see other big TikTokers trying to follow in her footsteps by like pulling back on social media and moving into other ways? Yeah, Addison's an interesting one. I think she's done it really well. She started to make that pivot so early on after she gained that kind of mainstream like TikTok success tick tock success i mean so she was able to break out of that box really quickly i think that something that we haven't seen with the d'amelio sisters they i think will always be branded as tick tockers but addison i i think it's a combination of the fact that she was always a bit like sexier a bit more adult in her content and she kind of had that kardashian tie she was always being a bit more adult in her content. And she kind of had that Kardashian tie. She was always being a bit more, it felt like strategic at least in how she presented herself online and the decisions that she made. But I think a few big things happened that like kind of contributed to her pulling back. One of the biggest, I believe is her father and all of the drama that happened with that. I think it was like the end of last year and i think you know his messages that he was sending or like the dms he was sharing everything like the situation with that i don't remember the details but she kind of went dark after that for a while to i think protect her i'm sure mental health but also her image and that was the best decision she made because that just blew over. She was not even really attached to it. Of course, news articles were referencing him as, you know, Addison Rae's dad, but because she had gone dark, you know, she really like slid under the radar there and she was able to just kind of reemerge at the tail end of this year unscathed in a sense. So I think that was a massive win for her for sure but even before all of her dad's drama you know she was in that movie that Netflix movie that like Courtney was also in oh um she's all that he's all that whatever yeah yeah so she's been doing these things here and there I think to really build herself up and doing the Met Gala and all these things I don't know she has just been like killing it when I really think about it. And I also think sorry now I'm just like on a tangent thinking about as Ray. I also think one of the best things she did was brand herself as this kind of like a nostalgic Barbie, right, this like Y2K Barbie, because even though at first people were always making fun of her style and being like, she's so tacky. Look at how she dresses. She just like lent and she just kept like she stayed the course with that, with that style. That is like who she is and that is her style now. And the reason why I think that was a genius move, whether it was authentic or not, I don't know, is because now the music that she's releasing is so like reminiscent of the Britney Spears pop star days and like it's not like it's boppy fun like pop songs right but it's not like groundbreaking music yeah Olivia Rodrigo but if she didn't have all of this like image around it that like made sense with her music then it would just sound like any other like you know TikTcker trying to release some like pop song that feels so auto-tuned and so you know just like slapped together but because it like goes along it's so cohesive with everything she's like she represents i guess as a public figure people are obsessed with it yeah you make like the the clothing call out is so interesting you're so right because one it also a lot of her photos in the way that we saw Addison Rae prior to the music release wasn't through her own social media it was through paparazzi photos and whether she was setting those up or not we we won't know but it really kind of elevated her prestige in a way in the public eye that like if you see someone's tiktok video on your feed and it's them like doing the renegade you're like okay well they posted that it's kind of self-promo-y but if you see a video of someone like that one iconic video of addison like walking on the sidewalk reading britney spears book and she's in like uggs or something I'm like what like no one's really like reading a book while they walk to my knowledge if they are I'm actually very impressed um but like that's more prestigious in terms of your celebrity status than if she just like posted a TikTok of her like talking about like a chapter in the book that she liked and so I think she was really good at shifting that attention kind of towards being seen from like the third perspective versus like a paparazzi camera versus what i call like the first person perspective which is like you pressing record on your phone one is way more powerful than the other and she was so good at that so yeah i and and also like her clothing as well as i always say like as someone who reports on trends i I always do say, though, like the opposite of trendy is timeless. And sometimes throwing away the trends and doing something completely different or opposite is a way to solidify yourself as well. And I think she kind of was like good at that. Like she dressed in ways that people almost like in a mean way would make fun of her for. But I'm like, at least it's interesting to look at. Like she doesn't look like all of the other trends that I'm seeing every day on the feed she's doing something interesting so yeah I think she's really good at branding yeah I also think what's interesting in comparing her to the D'Amelio's and I think that will unfortunately be a comparison both of them will suffer with forever because they came up at the same time but i think the demelios pivot into a product just felt very influencery in a way and then i also think that reality show obviously we've seen you know keeping up with the kardashians catapult them into where they are now but i think the demelios going down the route of a reality show really leaned into that kind of relatability authenticity that was kind of a byproduct of TikTok whereas Addison you know going to the Met Gala like it moved her away from having to share so much about herself and so by default people felt like she was a celebrity before she'd actually even cracked an A-list kind of circle because she was revealing less and less about herself and going down that more traditional route of like, okay, I'm in a PR controlled environment. Now it feels different. Well, she did try some of those things. She had like Addison goes home or whatever that Snapchat reality show was. That was a blip. We don't talk about that. That's what I mean though. She had Item Beauty and she had Addison goes home, whatever that show was. And those, she ended those like including Item Beauty, she fully closed closed it i think like pretty shortly after probably possibly getting like a new pr team a new manager where they're like let's take you away from this let's go in a different direction because i agree if she had just stayed the course with those influencery things that feel influencery and stick with that like authenticity that relatability then she wouldn't have been able to pivot mainstream and it's so funny because we talk about relatability with influencers being there like sticking point they have to stay the course they have to make sure that they stay relatable but with her the trick was okay now i'm shutting myself off and that was her ticket to like the next tier of longevity in her career and like escaping that influencer realm yes oh my gosh you guys made such good points also like the snapchat shows like needs to be studied and i always say i want to have like a pop culture museum one day there's gonna be like a dark scary cold room where it's just like playing on full volume blast like all of these random snapchat shows that have ever existed like vertical and um they're just so interesting they never seem to like really stick and like no shade to snapchat like they obviously have a great audience there but um the shows are just always kind of an anomaly and i honestly think like addison is always going to be compared to the demelios because of the time they blew up and i think that's so correct but i would even say like just talking out loud she seems more similar to Nessa Barrett in some ways like Nessa Barrett was a TikToker blew up on TikTok she was associated with the Sway House when that was a thing and then pulled back from the internet and became like a beloved like pop singer or like I guess she's more punk rock but I just think Ness is like such a good comparison although Addison went the acting route as well and I will say I don't know how intentional this was and I don't know how like legitimate it is because creators and celebrities sign to new management all the time but around the time that Addison signed or was appearing on the Kardashian show, I believe she had signed to WME Agency. And you know who else was wrapped by WME Agency? Kourtney Kardashian. And the two of them started doing videos together. So I wouldn't be surprised if there was some behind the scenes maneuvering happening there. I don't know for sure. But I'm always so interested in the back end of the industry like when like weird celebrities start collabing that you would never think of I always look at who both of their agencies are and then see if there's like a similarity there wait isn't that Bobby Altoff and Drake aren't they both WMAs and that why that whole thing popped off so Bobby is interesting to me from the interviews I've read what's honestly so crazy about her story is she wasn't signed to a like legitimate talent agency until after the drake interview and the reason that i believe that she signed to wme after they found her from that video the reason i believe it is because in the drake interview when he played the snippet of that song, you know how that's one of the theories as to why she took it down was because he copyrighted the song. Eddie, if there was any talent manager in that room or video producer, like me, I worked on the back end of editing videos for years. You cannot play a song for more than 15 seconds or else it gets flagged in the system as copyright copyrightable right so if she had a like a legitimate talent team with her when she filmed that video and then edited it they would have immediately taken down that soundbite but she didn't which makes me think she was a little naive and not being advised meaning she didn't have a talent team when that video went up so oh my oh my gosh, so interesting. I mean, it could make sense though, if she met WME through Drake as well. Like if his team is WME and they're watching this clip, they would obviously be like, oh, can we reach out to her? You know, so there's so many layers there. Like I could do a whole episode on like talent agencies. I think it's so interesting, like the back end. could do a whole episode on like talent agencies. I think it's so interesting, like the back end. But I think Addison Rae just kind of tying this part up is she's a really good example of if, say, this influencer world, again, I think influencing will always exist, but it's become so oversaturated, which we kind of talk about in your guys' podcast. And I think that with Addison, it might be a good example and it might be a good blueprint of how certain people are able to maneuver away from that and like not be known as an influencer anymore if they want to separate themselves. Now we're going to get into something a little darker which I kind of like avoided this topic for a long time, even though I had a lot of feelings about it, because it's such a dark, heavy topic. But I would be selling this year short in this podcast short if I didn't touch on it, because I think it's going to be a benchmark that we look back on in the influencer world for decades to come, which is kind of this fallout of like the mommy bloggers, family bloggers, which is Ruby Frank, the one who's like literally arrested and was charged with abusing her younger children, although it appears in videos allegedly the abuse had been going on for quite a long time.
Ruby Franke & Colleen Ballinger - (27:40)
And then even though she didn't start as a family blogger, I still kind of categorize her in this realm because she appealed to like children in her content but in a very inappropriate way and then started filming her children the moment they were born which is Colleen Ballinger so the notes that I have here are essentially like I really think that these two situations were these really big dominoes that started to fall in terms of family voggers were looked at, especially from like YouTube as the pinnacle of family friendly. They got the biggest advertising dollars on YouTube. You know, Colleen Ballinger was the face of VidCon for years. All of these, the LeBrant family, they're really seen as like, you know, you can't go wrong with a family channel. And yet we're starting to see, and this isn't always the case, so I don't want to generalize, but that some of the darkest controversies that happen on the internet come from family vloggers. And I do think in my own personal opinion, I'll get into your guys' opinion too as well, because it might be different or whatever. And I'd love to hear your thoughts. My opinion is that it's not too far-fetched to believe that someone who is exploiting their children and like making them work from the moment they're born and maybe putting them in extreme emotionally distressing situations that they wouldn't otherwise would also be potentially willing to cross a line or violate like you know even it's just filming them without their consent um and so anyway so the way that the Colleen Ballinger thing kind of happened is even though she didn't start out as a mommy blogger one of the initial dominoes to fall this year that kind of was part of her takedown was that tiktokers online began criticizing her family even her extended family their use of their underage children and content. And then this kind of led to like the upheaval. Of course, Ruby Frank's domino was literally just her getting arrested, which was like a long time coming. That'll do it. And then, yeah, I just think that we're going to look back as a society at 2023 is the year that we began to really critically question the ethics of these kind of channels but i'd love to know your guys's thoughts about like what you think those moments may be represented this year yeah i think ruby frankie for sure is the prime example of that i think there will be like genuine laws that come in place because of what happened with her. Because what like you said, there has been, I guess, almost a decade of evidence. I mean, same with Colleen, but it's because she's only been a mom for a fraction of that time. It's a little different. But with Ruby, like there are years and years of basically video evidence of her abusing her children and nothing was ever done and her daughter sherry came out and spoke out on a podcast in may like months and months before ruby was arrested talking about how she no longer has contact with her parents because of you know her upbringing and being the oldest child having a camera in her face since she was you know 13 which is the most horrific age for a teenage girl like a girl to have oh my god a camera in your face all of your private moments as a pre-teen put on the internet i can not imagine um and she said like we've been callingPS, like we've been trying to, you know, figure out how to get these kids, my siblings away from my mom and nothing has worked so far. So I think it was just a culmination of like years and years of evidence that finally kind of came to a head. Um, and then of course, one of the children escaped and ended up calling the police or the neighbors called the police when the child escaped. So, you know, I think this was like this was an example where this was in our faces and nothing was done. And people watch this channel and people, you know, still watch family channels and thought they were so wholesome and cute. And like we're looking to Ruby and her husband, Kevin, as examples for parenting advice, which is the most wild thing. And she was able to pivot her mommy blogging career into like an actual business connections, like get involved with connections where she was running workshops and courses on how to parent your children. And I think this is going to be like this is a pivotal moment, I think, and family blogging. People were already starting to talk about it, about how family bloggers were unethical and what that's going to look like for those kids. The kids are going to start writing books in a few years about what this experience was like for them. So I think this was like a nail in the coffin. And I think things will start to unfold from Ruby Frankie. And I think when it comes to Colleen, people aren't necessarily looking at her as a mommy blogger. I wouldn't say, I think it's more so people are looking at her cancellation, quote unquote, as an example of the creator, like dynamics, like the power dynamics between fans and creators and how inappropriate that can be. And you shouldn't have access to like message somebody that you're obsessed with, like a celebrity, you know, you shouldn't be like messaging. I don't know. I'm trying to think of like a mainstream celebrity, like Justin Bieber and he responds to you, you know, like it is just this weird thing that social media has enabled. So I think when it comes to Colleen, that's more so what people are going to look at. I also think from a YouTube perspective too, we're so used to thinking of, you know, the bowels of the internet and these places that feel really dark. And it seems really clear cut about the, thinking of you know the bowels of the internet and these places that feel really dark and it seems really clear-cut about the um whether or not that video content or information is appropriate and i think ruby frankie too is this really gray area that people are starting to recognize where it is really sinister and it's been under our nose the whole time like i think it's made people a lot more aware of the fact that like just because it is like available for kids to watch on youtube i think hopefully this will be a wake-up call for youtube and we've spoken about this a lot in the past that like youtube shouldn't be able to monetize that amount of content if they aren't able to moderate that amount of content and that's a big responsibility that they're kind of not taking accountability for that you know they can demonetize people at any point and there is so much uh a backlash and you can see how people are responding to videos in real time and so the fact that they're not kind of being held accountable for this is where she was making her money and this is where she was continuing to participate and profit off this behavior is also a problem as well yeah that's such a good point like they you know i think and i mean i say this is someone who's like i am a champion of youtube i was i you know i was just at their office today but there are moments where i'm like you guys really are one of the best platforms in terms of letting creators make money and make this a career and become legitimate from it and they love to celebrate that and like you know they have vidcon they love to like prop that up but then the moment that there's criticism of like oh hey like why were you letting this person who's abusing their children and document it like make millions they're like oh we don't like that's not us we don't know like we're hands off like you're not hands off like and for me specifically with like the colleen ballinger situation i when i started seeing some of the criticism and stuff like i i went back and i watched some of her like most popular videos and it was like i don't even want to say the names of the videos because of the content seemed and again this is my own opinion alleged i don't know that it seemed like she was potentially making videos with her children relatives for viewers that we might not even know like it was very dark and i think there were undertones there that the naked eye would not understand the innuendos of what she was having the kids do. And my thing is, if a video has 10 million views, you cannot, like, I think I'm more mad at YouTube in a way because these awful people will always exist and I hope justice comes for them. But where I was really disappointed is platforms like YouTube, where I was like, if a video has 10 million views and there's clearly something dark happening in the video, you're, you cannot look me in the eye and tell me that an employee at YouTube did not see that video come across their feed and they could have pulled the plug on that video. But no, instead, if a video has 10 million views, there's a hand picking to the algorithm that happens. It's not all a crazy robot that we don't know. happens. It's not all a crazy robot that we don't know. It's employees who see videos and decide we are going to push this person in the algorithm. The trending page is handpicked. It's employees at YouTube deciding what to put out there. So for me, like the Colleen Ballinger and some of these family channels, I'm like, you know, they, they like to say when shit hits the fan that, oh, we didn't know. Like we, you know, we're, we're hands off. We just let people post what they like to say when shit hits the fan that, oh, we didn't know. Like, you know, we're hands off. We just let people post what they want to post. But then when people make millions and they're celebrated, you know, YouTube wants to take credit for it. And I think platforms have this perpetual issue. But, yeah, like if there is children in videos, I think there does need to be a little bit more. And, again, I don't think all family channels are like this. I think oftentimes family channels happen on accident. Like I don't think anyone, I think everyone becomes a creator on accident. Like no one really knows how or why they're going to blow up. And yeah, I think that like maybe unfortunately in a few years from now, we'll see Jeanette McCurdy style videos start coming out of kids documenting what was really happening. And, and I hope not. I hope none of these kids are going through anything. But I do think that 2023 will be a moment that people look back and the Ruby Frank situation is going to be a huge indicator of the tide sort of shifting of family channels being able to get away with everything. And not only that, but be the most monetized on YouTube specifically, or one of the most monetized um so now switching to yeah do you guys have any more thoughts on that before we move on yeah I was just gonna say like the Jojo Siwa to like Everly LeBron pipeline too like I think we've spoken a lot about you know when you mentioned what changes we're gonna see come out of 2023 we've spoken about what's that law um oh the coogan law the coogan law that protects child actors in the entertainment industry i think this might be this might be the turning point where we see the coogan law set to come into effect because when you look at someone like eva lee lebran or jojo siwa even they're sustaining their whole family like she's a young girl now that essentially her parents are like I'm sure she thinks she wants to be like a superstar and that's what we talk about all the time is that you know you can it's your responsibility to protect your children and that means not platforming them even if they think that they want to be like a celebrity in this moment but I think this is going to be the turning point too where we hopefully see like entertainment-esque laws to protect children about you know where their money has to go how many hours they work start to be talked about and put into place for family vloggers and family channels and see what that looks like moving forward because the hours they must work the pressure they must have they don't even know that they're responsible for mortgages and like their parents whole lifestyles either like that's an insane amount of pressure to have as a child yeah you make you make such good points like I I think of the comparison of like if a family has like say they own like a local grocery store could you imagine if you walked into that grocery store and a one-year-old in like a stroller was the one like checking you out on the register like it wouldn't happen like it's so crazy like that's literally what's happening is these families have llcs they're family companies that's what they're doing they're making money and like the newborn babies are the ones like literally like hypothetically at the register like the face of the company working like crazy hours and i'm like why like yeah it's just and in the coogan law that you refer to they um i think i know in america it was in illinois actually that they passed a law yes and do do is it going to be like are they going to be able to really enforce it maybe not but i think it was a pivotal moment in setting a precedent legally that this is what's going to start to happen where I think it was like you know a certain percentage of any sort of money made from videos that kids are featured in has to go into a bank account that the parents can't touch again is that enforceable probably not until someone like YouTube steps up or is YouTube going to step up probably not until they have legally have to but I think that it is interesting to see the court system, at least in America, really start to kind of set certain precedences legally of what this might look like in 10 to 20 years from now. And again, I think like 2023 is going to be the year that we really look back and see the tides completely shift in a way. And Ruby Frank was unfortunately an extreme example that had to happen to really like, I think think open the general public's minds to what could potentially be happening um now the next story that i want to move into that i think was really like a big moment and i think really unfortunate for the creator at the center of it because again like i think creators they kind of build their own bubbles and like i know for me i have a little safe kind of bubble on the internet that I love. And it's scary to like think about going outside of that bubble to people who maybe don't understand you.
Dylan Mulvaney’s Budlight Fall Out - (41:15)
But Dylan Mulvaney in the Bud Light story. And for those of you who don't know, again, if you listen to my pod, you probably know, but it was even the way it happened was like really one of those things where reality is stranger than fiction I don't think anyone could have predicted this would go viral to my knowledge it was like Bud Light just sent her a can with her name on it and I don't even know if it was like a huge campaign or sponsorship and Dylan excitedly posted about this can that they sent her excitedly posted about this cam that they sent her and it turned into like national news like news that went on for weeks and it was essentially where bud light unfortunately backtracked and we're like we don't you know we don't align with this creator we don't want to lose our following we don't want to lose our demographic and really just like they kind of hung dylan up to dry like they were like I don't know I think it was just so unfortunate when they could have had a moment where they were like this is someone we worked with in a campaign of many influencers like you know get over it like but they didn't I don't maybe like my own bias is coming out but I think that it was this moment online where influencers can know like it was this realization that influencers can no longer exist in this safe bubble of their audience and that more so just the nature of the for you page I think very rarely did we see controversies transcend this way on YouTube or Instagram the only like real example I can think of is maybe the James Charles thing that happened with like, Bye Sister. But this is really just an example that like, the influencer bubble is so big that stories and drama that happens now transcends even what the influencer can kind of like, understand. And I added a note in here too, that I think that this is one of the downsides that it can lead to especially extreme hate for marginalized creators and it was a moment also that i think real creators realize that big brands may align with them when it benefits them but then like i said earlier hang them out to dry when it might affect their money and that there's just an inherent risk in being the face of a campaign even though again i don't even think this was a campaign i think it was like a super like kind of surface level thing that just got blown up and um you know the people making decisions at companies can kind of hide behind a logo and go unscathed but it really is the creators that you know we get paid the most money and it's really an amazing job but it also means that you're kind of I think the reason they pay influencers to be the face of campaigns is influencers the ones that are going to take the fall if it does bad because we're the ones putting our names and faces on it so I'd love to know what you guys think about the Dylan and Bud Light thing and what do you think it it's going to look like in you know five to ten years in the influencer world when people look back on it yeah I think this is really interesting because there's been so much conversation about you know performative activism and I think influencers give ample opportunity for brands to be performative and aligned for a single campaign and then like you said even though it wasn't a campaign like backtrack later on when there are louder voices or you know maybe voices with financial interest in the company or you know boards step in and I think quite often it speaks to how little brands understand the creator ecosystem and the way that aligning with a creator like Dylan you know could have such amazing effects down the track and it could have such great brand alignment for Gen Z in the future, recognizing that Bud Light partnered with her. Whereas I think it is really easy. The internet is so polarized. It is easy sometimes to lean into the loudest voices instead of maybe doing what they think is right. But yeah, I do think it is representative of an opportunity that Bud Light had to like stand out above the crowd of all their competitors to align with Gen Z for the future, right? Like Washington Post had a TikTok account really early and they made the point that we're not making Gen Z by newspapers now. Not when they're 13 years old, they're not going to read a newspaper. But in 15 years, when they do do decide they want to read a newspaper they will have a positive affinity with the Washington Post because they recognize what we did on TikTok and that we were you know on the pulse and we were progressive and I think this was Bud Light's opportunity to do that and also I don't think they understood the ramifications of how hard the internet came for Dylan with that partnership too like you said they hung her out to dry she was the one with all of this and she's had a horrific year of copping backlash on the internet. And I think being a part of that is also a really, it's horrible that a brand doesn't recognize the impact they have on that level as well. And Dylan has come out and said that she hasn't heard from Bud Light at all. Like that is disgusting. After they basically, you know, took back the fact that they said they sent her one can it was not a campaign, as we said, it was a can with her face on it to celebrate 100 days of girlhood. That's all they did. They gifted her something. And the fact that they couldn't, like, stand by what they did, gifted her something and the fact that they couldn't like stand by what they did they couldn't make a statement that said you know what like fuck all of you bigots and we're gonna stand here and you know we made this decision because we're progressive and we believe in this and you know they just they've isolated now this whole other demographic of people like i'm gonna look at bud light in such a disgusting way now. They got the loud voices back, but they lost this whole new generation coming through that probably would have sustained their business for the next like 10, 15 years now. So like, is that a sacrifice worth making, you know? Yeah. So I think this was also a lesson in PR management for people in, you know, at brands and professional capacities, because it was a disaster across the board for sure and like you said nobody could have anticipated that them sending her this can and her posting it in like this cute little video would have blown up the way that it did but when some you have to be ready for something like that to happen if you are engaging with creators whether it's in a gifting capacity or a paid campaign capacity and you know they were not ready for whatever ended up ensuing and they decided to be little pussies about it and backtrack on it yeah like if you're gonna be performing like this is the absolute like epitome of what performative activism looks like is it ends up a mess for everyone like if you're gonna make that decision you have to stand by it yeah yeah no it's yeah it's it's such a good point like i i think with the dylan thing, it's, yeah, it's, it's such a good point. Like I, I think with the Dylan thing too, it's such a good example of like that performative nature of brands. And instead of like actually, you know, doing the work or maybe shifting the brand's core values, if they realize that it's, you know, it's dated and it's no longer reflective of them instead of really doing like that internal work they do a quick you know little thing with an influencer to say hey we're part of this community now we support you um and and as a result like with this especially like i think you make a good point that sometimes the loudest voices are the fewest they're just loud And I think that's kind of what happened here with like the Dylan situation. I personally think that Dylan, and I've said like Madison Beer should do this too. I don't even drink alcohol, but when I did drink, I preferred beer. Like I'm not a hard alcohol person. Like beer was something that I could drink without like feeling really gross and there's really no beer brand right now that caters to women like the branding of every single beer is so interchangeable it's either a brewery or like a bud light type branding and it's all the same they all have the same like clip art like mountain with snow like on the freaking logo and like i would love if dylan came out with like a beer line or like i always like because mad Beer in an interview recently was like, oh, I only drink beer. I was like, hello. So I think it's going to be a matter of time before an influencer or creator, female led launches a beer company and blows it out of the water because women drink beer. They're just like not really and i don't think that it needs to be like the i don't know if you guys remember when gillette or something was selling like women uh shavers and it was like more expensive but all it was it was the same product but pink like i don't want it to be like that i think it could truly be like a brand that has you know a female led like a different maybe different values a different audience from a beer brand and they can do that in ways that isn't just selling a pink can but um yeah I think there's like such a huge branding opportunity there for Dylan if she ever wants to like reclaim that and go into it but I also don't blame her for probably never wanting to look at a beer can ever again um but now this leads me to the last story of the year that I think really kind of tied the year up in a bow and perfectly encapsulates the thesis of this podcast is like, is the influencer bubble bursting? And I don't really think so.
Criticism On Emma Chamberlain
Emma Chamberlain’s Podcast Criticism - (50:00)
I think just our relationship with influencers is changing, which is, and I know you guys did an episode on it, but the whole Emma Chamberlain podcast discourse that recently happened where it was like, and this, this was really interesting. And I made a video about it where I said, like, I think she should go into like audio books or like book reviews. Cause it would be such a good like sponsorship with Spotify. Um, and it would be a way for her to like have ideas that are maybe outside of her own and take the pressure off of her to always need to have her own new ideas. But anyways, this con it wasn't even like a controversy, I guess, but it was so interesting because there was no catalyst, which was like one of the first times really that I can maybe the Colin Ballinger thing kind of similarly, but there was no catalyst. It just happened, which I think is kind of terrifying in a way. But for anyone listening who doesn't know, it was essentially where Emma Chamberlain's podcast, specifically Anything Goes, faced a lot of criticism the last few weeks because fans are really saying like they've outgrown her or they feel like some of the thoughts that she says in the podcast are thoughts that they had as like a third grader is kind of like one of the memes that people were saying. But like, ultimately it comes down to, you know, what happens when we outgrow our favorite influencers and how does that dynamic change? And I'd love to know what you guys, I know you guys did like, I like an episode, but like, what do you guys think about this whole situation? And then we'll just kind of like end here. Yeah. i feel like when it comes to this specific situation it is an example of an audience that was so tied to emma like so like felt so close to her she was truly like the blueprint for like gen z relatable authentic girly you know like influencer youtuber and i feel like so many people resonated with her and a lot of her audience would be in their young 20s so they would be graduating college if they went to college and i think this conversation conversation started because they've been in the working world now for a little bit of time and they've realized like okay I just had three to four years of like intensive uni experience like you know where I'm studying and I'm learning and I'm having these conversations at a really high level like at a level where it's you know an academic level and I'm getting graded on it and things like that and I think they're listening to Emma's podcast because that's obviously what the topic was about or what the whole controversy was about is her podcast specifically, not her content kind of as a whole, but like her podcast where she's having these thoughts and she's just rambling, you know, she's just like chatting it up with herself. Basically, it's just like a stream of consciousness. But they're thinking, OK. It could do with some structure or some critical thinking like they're just at this phase where they have like outgrown her and they're trying to hold on to that parasocial relationship. And they've just been through this massive change, right. Where they have developed that skill. They have like flexed that muscle for the last three to four years. So they are probably just noticing that divide between them, but nobody is really saying Emma like needs to go to college. I think that's kind of a big misconception. And if you have our TikToks about this have blown up and people are coming for us being like, you guys are such haters. And it's like, please just go listen to the full hour episode because that's not where we're like where we stand at all. We're not saying Emma needs to go to college. We're just exploring this topic. But I think there's a misconception that people are saying she needs to go to college. It's more so that she clearly is a very smart girl who wants to explore these bigger topics, these ideas outside of herself. And she doesn't have anywhere to do that right now. And college is a great place to facilitate that. And I don't think they're even saying, like, you need to go to college. It's more so just like she could benefit from like some classes where she's, you know, just rifting about ideas. I also think what's interesting about Emma and I realized I was screaming in the Dylan Mulvaney part. I was like so like emblazoned with like thoughts. I think we realized with Emma too is if her audience has outgrown her, is beginning to outgrow her because they are transitioning into a working environment, they're moving away from home, a college environment, they're meeting different kinds of people i think it's going to be really interesting because emma was the blueprint for this type of influencer or creator is she gonna look is she gonna have to constantly be finding new and younger audiences now like i think it will be really interesting like how she continues her career and whether or not if she outgrows this audience is she gonna be have to like is she gonna have to start from scratch looking for new audiences because that is something she hasn't had to do for so long she's had such a loyal following she's been able to transition that into like luxury brand deals a coffee brand the podcast so if she has to like almost start again to build up that audience from scratch at the age that kind of suits the content that she's putting out in the world. I am just like, obviously that's exhausting. And she already talked about how exhausted she is and how much of a hit her mental health is taking. So I think she is kind of at a crossroads where it will be really interesting to see what she does next to maintain her relevance. If she does want to, she might pivot out of creating all together and like social media all together. But i think maybe that might be the direction she'll have to look at if she wants to continue doing what she's doing i think this situation will be important though because okay like emma's not the first creator that was really big and people had you know a strong tie to and then groups of people started outgrowing them right but like for some reason this has just taken a hold and i think it's possibly because it's the i'm trying to think if it's probably not the first creator that this has happened to with like gen z or like the tiktok generation but i would say well maybe it is because if you think about like david dobrik and stuff like they people moved away from them for other reasons emma like nothing nothing happened. As you said, Coco, like there was no catalyst for this. This was just people starting to talk about how her podcast was not hitting the way that it used to or how they wanted it to. And then it started to turn into this bigger discussion. So maybe it is the fact that her audience is younger and millennials, like we've kind of moved through that before. And we didn't have an outlet like TikTok to start this conversation and start talking about how our faves were like you know we're kind of leaving them behind i don't know yeah oh my gosh like you i keep saying this every time you get i'm like you guys make good points so that's why i feel listening to your podcast i'm like wow they're making such good points um but yeah no i i agree like i i think it's no coincidence that the discourse around Emma Chamberlain's podcast, and I don't think it's a reflection of Emma Chamberlain. I think it's a reflection of the times. And you guys were saying Gen Z entering the workforce. And I don't think it's coincidence that that discourse happened simultaneously as the other viral story that week, which was the girl who went viral for saying like working a nine-to-five is really hard and then for some reason the bffs pods like went so hard on her i was like wait what but the girl had a point like i've worked a nine-to-five i remember being distraught the first year of my first full-time job being like is this life now like i wake up, go to work. I come home. I'm too tired to do anything. Like I, I, you know, I drive through McDonald's and I go to bed and then I do the same thing. And I think that like those two stories happening simultaneously, again, not a bad reflection on Emma. It just was, you know, she holds a lot of attention. And so there's like a lot of discourse that happens as a result. And I think it was really these two polarizing things happening at the same time where Emma's age, that Gen Z, older Gen Z age, they're entering the workforce for the first time. And it probably is the first time that they're feeling a really deep disconnect from the influencers that they grew up with. Because when you guys are like in high school together with your influencer, maybe they're like, you know, they're not in high school anymore, but your guys' lives are still quite parallel. And I think there probably is just like, again, there's this growing resentment from like a very understandable, you know, like the 99%, like the working class towards, you know, the 1% of, especially like when you're able to make it to the level that like Emma Chamberlain is, I think there is that disconnect. And I do think though that like Emma Chamberlain is really interesting in the sense that her audience reminds me kind of like of Selena Gomez's audience. And I say this as a fan of both of them but in a way I think they're kind of infantilized by their audience and like you guys said like I had similar comments where me and my friend were talking about you know Emma Chamberlain's podcast discourse really from a bird's eye view but the comments were very like protective of Emma and I think that's also sometimes a result of what happens when you grow up with like a celebrity. I think that's why Selena's fans are kind of that way. Very protective of them in a way that I'm like, you know, they're grown women making multi-millions of dollars a month, not just a year. They're smart. They're gonna gonna be okay like they know what they're not the underdog they're not the underdog anymore yes and it's so crazy but like I think celebrities that are able to keep that kind of narrative in a way I don't even think it's always intentional they have such like a fierce loyalty from their audience in a way but I also think it can hurt them in the long run because maybe they aren't forced to grow they aren't forced to evolve like maybe influencers that have to be a little scrappier like I'm sure Michaela Noguera in a way is probably has to be a little scrappier than like Emma Chamberlain because again like we talked about in your guys's pod like her audience is they love her but they're hyper critical of her um which is like a really interesting dynamic there so I don't know I think that like to like to end this discussion I don't think the influencer bubble is bursting but I do think that the dynamic between audiences and influencers is drastically changing and this might have been the year that we see it shift the most, because I think, of course you had the YouTube era. And then when TikTok was invited into the public conscience in around 2020, there was this like endearing honeymoon phase for the first like three years. And now I think audiences are like starting to become critical of who becomes famous and who stays famous and rightfully so. I mean, audiences are so smart. I think creators and brands forget how smart audiences are. And yeah, it's just all of this has been like such an interesting discussion. And I would love to know if you guys have any last thoughts and also if you want to plug like where people can find you on socials and everything. Yeah. I mean, do you have any thoughts? I have a few thoughts. You're probably like, can you guys get off the mics? No, I love i've got nothing but time i've got nothing but time i just have been thinking a lot about some of the like points the questions that you kind of left us with uh as kind of a summation of you know all these moments of 2023 about like what brand partnerships will look like in the future because I think like we don't know where Michaela's going to go if she can't keep hocking products from like a review or a collab perspective people are over having to show out their money to make her career but then I think Emma is interesting because people want her to have more critical thought and they don't want to engage in content for the sake of content without having a purpose almost either. So I, yeah, I just think that kind of element is really interesting where I actually think Emma's like a format of her making a podcast, like Alex Earl, I think has done it really well. She's making a podcast on Spotify. She's getting paid exclusively by Spotify to create content there. People are really engaged with that, but she actually doesn't have to talk about brands. Brands can then also go to Spotify getting paid exclusively by spotify to create content there people are really engaged with that but she actually doesn't have to talk about brands brands can then also go to spotify and run ads and i think like we were saying before consumers were so smart now the move away from native content because it's so it feels shady in a lot of ways it doesn't feel authentic 90 of the time anyway just let brands run ads that feel like ads and i think like alex potentially that will be how she makes all her money moving forward it will be purely on listeners and engagement and she can just focus on making content that feels like true and authentic to her and resonates with her listeners like i think keeping it clean in that way or you know looking at and this is a heavy podcast example like Giggly Squad they tour and they make their money off touring so I think bringing it back to that focus on the relationship and focus on the content and things that are resonating instead of trying to like employ this middleman which is selling products might make the relationship with influencers like feel a bit more fun again right feel like it's for the right reasons again because I feel like we are in this like we're at this cross right now we've hit this ceiling where influencers don't know what direction to go like none of it makes sense like people getting criticized left right and center every angle they're hitting a wall so I do think we have to figure out like what the next era of like creating and influencing will look like yeah I agree with that because we've had a lot of conversations over the last like year or two with different marketing professionals comms professionals different brands uh some that we work with some that we don't where they've said you know like influencer marketing is changing we are kind of recognizing that we were putting all of our eggs into this basket. It was so exciting, I'm sure, as a marketing professional when influencer marketing started to blow up and you were like, oh, my God, I can put all of my marketing budget here and I will actually convert sales. And that was just really unheard of until influencer marketing, at least at that scale. So I think we've had a lot of conversations, though, where that, you know, that's burst that that bubble has actually like burst where it's like we kind of we can recognize an ad, we don't trust influencers the same way that we used to, and so brands are not getting that same return. So a lot of the conversations have been, OK, we are starting to reallocate some of our budget to more traditional advertising. Again, you know, they they tried it one way and they're kind of moving back to a more equal space. There will always be tons of money for influencer marketing. I definitely think influencer culture has changed. But the bubble in general has not burst, of course. I think we would like to think like I think general consumers are like, I'm so tired of influencers. But the creator economy says otherwise. So I don't think it's going anywhere ever. But I think also the way that brand partnerships might go is towards more like activations or like unique projects. I know that a lot of brands that we talk to are really interested in tapping into our audience, like the consumer side of it. So not necessarily like working with us on on I mean, sometimes it is like sponsored content, but not always anymore. A lot of them are like, let's do an event where like you guys host it and we get your listeners there so we can get our products into their hands, you know, so that kind of like consumer first initiative, as opposed to brands spending money on gifting influencers they want to be gifting consumers now yes and like that is such a good um reflection of what just happened with uh kai kylie jenner's new brand they didn't like the kardashian playbook they practically invented it which was like sending so much of their stuff to influencers. Well, they didn't invent it, but that was a huge part of, they always throw parties and then like invite influencers. And for Kylie's new brand, she didn't send out any stuff to influencers. And I think it was kind of that shift of the way that brands maybe partner or work with influencers is going to be really interesting. And, and, um, like what you guys said was so right too with Alex Earl and maybe like no longer having to be the salesman, but now just like providing the real estate where someone could put a billboard and you're not the one selling it. Like you're not the one convincing people. You just got the eyeballs there. And if the ad convinces them or not, that's not really your business as much. So I think that that's, I think Alex Earl is just so interesting and I'm so like, I think she did a lot of things really correct and, um, it'll be interesting to see where she goes. Cause I think she does kind of represent the future in some ways. Um, but this was so great. Do you guys want to plug your socials and everything? Cause I'd love for them to be able to go on and follow y'all. So you can follow us at infinite scroll podcast on Tik TOK and Instagram, and then our greater media brand where our podcast falls under is centennial world. Yeah. And that's that. Yeah. Yes. Amazing. Well, thank you guys so much.