David Moyes Reveals The Truth About Man United, West Ham & His Future | E213 | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "David Moyes Reveals The Truth About Man United, West Ham & His Future | E213".


Note: This transcription is split and grouped by topics and subtopics. You can navigate through the Table of Contents on the left. It's interactive. All paragraphs are timed to the original video. Click on the time (e.g., 01:53) to jump to the specific portion of the video.


Intro (00:00)

David beat out screaming at you at half time, they were screaming at the end of the game. What's the toll of that? David the Messiah boys! One of the best known football managers across the globe, building teams with a clear identity. So where am I looking and who am I talking to? I was desperate to be successful as a manager and I had 11 years at heaven. We'll find it really difficult to break into the top four, the phone line and the Sartre Alex. And he said, "I'm retiring "and you're the next manager of Manchester United." No interview, not saying, "Would you like to be?" I met Edward on the next day, back to his house again, we met the Glazers, which was three days, and that was as simple as that. To get that offer from the greatest manager, maybe the other was, it was a great compliment, but maybe if I'd really looked into more detail and more depth, there was a huge change going to have to take place. I trusted Manchester United. Do you feel like that trust was let down? Definitely. What my biggest regret was? We start with the story that has dominated the front pages, the sacking of David Moyes. How did you find out that you're losing your job? Media? Oh really? If you've got any class at any style, you have to give bad news well. What are those steps forward to get West Ham competing at the very top of the table? I want to build a new West Ham. Lots of supporters might not like the sort of that. When you look at where West Ham is now, do you worry about losing your job? I've got a shade. Before this episode starts, I have a small favor to ask from you. Two months ago, 74% of people that watched this channel didn't subscribe. We're now down to 69%. My goal is 50%. So if you've ever liked any of the videos we've posted, if you liked this channel, can you do me a quick favor and hit the subscribe button? It helps this channel more than you know, and the bigger the channel gets, as you've seen, the bigger the guests get. Thank you and enjoy this episode. David, take me back to the context that I need to understand in order to understand you.

Professional Experience And Management Insights

Early context (01:59)

Take me back to Glasgow, 1960s. Yes. I was in a really good family, who were really important, and you probably give me talk a lot about it now, but we were a family who was a little bit more, a family who stayed in the West End of Glasgow in a tournament building. And we used to have to go up the tournament, and people who don't know what a tournament is, a tournament is a no, but we would probably think about Boca Flats and you'd go up the tournament. And they were never in Glasgow at that time, very, very good to look at people, look down on them a little bit. But it was a great upbringing for me, that allowed me to play my football out in the street, which at that time was, with so much everybody considering street footballers, everybody played football in the street. And everybody in Glasgow did play football in the street, played in the park. So I started in Glasgow in the West End, and that was probably where me and my family grew up. Your father's also called David. He certainly is, yeah. What did he do for a living? And how did that influence you? Well, this is probably, it's a really good question to me for me, is because my dad actually was a teacher, but he worked in the shipyards in Glasgow, which was really important. So he worked in as a ship builder, and then he went on to become a teacher in a college. But meanwhile, what he'd done in his part of his other job was that he was an amateur football manager. And there was a very famous boy, he's called team in Glasgow, called from Chapel Amateurs, which was very famous. And really is all my memories come with my dad running one of the teams at the Chapel Amateurs. Now, for the people who don't know, there's people like Sir Alex Ferguson played for them, Chapel Amateurs, there was people like Ace of Hartford played for them, Chapel Amateurs. John Watt was a Scottish international. So it was a very, very famous boys' club. My dad also ran the college where he teach. My dad was a teacher at Annie's Land College, which was a college in Glasgow. And he took the team every Saturday morning, and then he took the amateur football team every Saturday afternoon. And I got to remember, this was all, it was well, there was no money involved in this. So really part of my life, we've seen my dad grow up as a football manager for Amateurs. But meanwhile, his real job was that he was a teacher at Annie's Land College. - Did that make you want to pursue that as a career at that time or what kind of influence has that had on you in hindsight? - Well, I think when I look back now, I'd say to you to, I think your parents have huge influence and everything you do for different reasons, mine definitely did. But I don't think when you're growing up as a boy, you're thinking, you know, I'm going to be influenced too much by my dad and my mum. You don't think that till you get a bit older yourself and when you look back, you go, "Wow, I can't believe that I'm quite similar to my dad "or I can't believe that I followed my mum." And good back to that, my mum was part of it as well. My mum had to wash the strips and hang them up outside. And then she'd have to wash them and iron them and I'd be folding them and putting them away. So probably from a really young boy, I was watching my dad and my mum help young boys at that time, you know, fulfill, go for a game of football, hope for the we're all home to going to become professional footballers. But if not, try and be successful playing for the boys team and guys about that time. - One of the things we do tend to pick up from our parents from what I've seen and I certainly did myself was, I guess like principles and values of like how to approach life and how to deal with life. What were those principles and values that your parents imparted on you directly or indirectly from observation about life and how to deal with it and how to confront it? - Well, I think your parents were always influencing some way I was sent to church when I was younger. So I went to church a lot of people were. And I think that probably had an influence as well in its own way in the early days. I think more to do with schooling, more to do with education and what they try to do. And to be fair, none of them, I was never pushed on anything. I was never pushed to know to be that well educated. I was never pushed that to be a great football player. They were just encouraging really and always their support. So I had parents who really let me grow up the way that we are chose to do so, but everything was guided by them, you know, respect, no trust, you know, trying to be truthful all the time. All those things I think come into a good relationship. - Did you ever have a, you kind of suggested there that they weren't necessarily like pushy parents necessarily, but did you ever have any idea of what career or aspiration would make them proud? If I'd asked you, you know, what did your mum or dad want you to be when you're older, when you were younger? What would you have said? - I think my dad would have definitely said, I hope you're a football, you know, I think my dad would have always probably thought that. He'd a great lover of football as well. But I think they were always really supportive in anything I wanted to do. But I think, you know, as I got on and I got to an age where I was starting to get closer, and I went 12 or 13, I think football was probably my biggest sort of love in what I wanted to do. And I was more interested in either watching football, playing football. And that was probably, they probably saw that runner at that age as well. - And is it sort of 12 years old? You were in Celtics youth system? - Yeah, what it was, is that that time Celtic, Celtic had a boys' cup. And you have to remember, my dad also, as I said, ran a very, very famous boys' team. One of the teams in Glasgow and from Chapel Amateurs, so, but I went to Celtic boys' cup. And I played with Celtic boys' cup from what was about 12 to 16, two and one. But they were brilliant years I had there. You know, my time at Celtic, which came after, is a player and is a, you know, a senior professional, not a senior professional, but a professional, I should say. But the young period when I was at Celtic boys' cup was, I can only remember, been winning things and been really successful and, you know, representing, you know, Glasgow schools as a school boy, or representing the Scotland schools as a school boy. International. So I had really, really good days and early days, probably, from 14, 15 onwards. - Did you, if I'd asked you, even at that age, so say when you were 16, if I'd asked you about your ambitions in football, what would you have responded with? - I hope that I might have been good enough to become a player, I'm not sure I would be. And I would love to be involved in football. And I always used to think that, you know, I'm holding it, maybe I could run an amateur team or I could be involved, I could maybe, might be good enough to take a junior team, you know, might get paid a little bit of money. You know, maybe I'd become a youth team coach for some day, if, you know, if I wasn't gonna be a football player. I always thought even at that time, when we were growing up, there was lots of youth clubs, you know, so we would go to a school youth club, you know, because it was where you would get a game of table tennis, you'd play pool, you know, the gym might be there, and you'd play five-side football, no, whoever was there. So I always thought, well, maybe, I might be able to, you know, use a club or something if I didn't get in, if I didn't get in more better than that. So those early days, there was no guarantee that you were going to become a footballer. Everybody really wanted to become a footballer.

Skills from your dad as a manager (09:51)

- What did you learn from your dad as a manager? Is there anything, even today, where you think, I think I've got that from my dad or that trait or that, you know, planning? - Yeah. - Organization, commitment. And if I just started planning, you know, at that time, there was no mobile phones then, so it was a phone. So it'd be phoning all the players to say, look, we're playing on Saturday, I want you to meet at 1230, we're meeting, wherever it was. And at that time, they all had to come at times with the same, with a shot and tie on. They had to bring a bag, you know, they all had to come with the same bag. Shot and tie, you got to remember, this is Glasgow in a time when, you know, people were, but people had to turn up with color and tie on. And if you didn't turn up with your color and tie on, you might not get selected for a game. So small things like this, if you're talking about maybe disciplines or ways you were brought up, I think possibly I picked up a lot of the traits, probably early on. - What does that matter? What are the small things, matter, shirt and tie? - Do you think they matter, I guess, is another question? - Yeah, I do, I think they really do matter. I think they, sometimes, I mean, and I have to say, in, if you jumped on to this, my senior time, I think, I think they've always looked better. I think people have always looked better, they dress well and they're correct, they look prepared for the games. I jumped to Manchester United, just quickly and say, Manchester United had a role, which Sir Alex had, that they would always turn up for away games and shot and tied. Now, most teams would rather turn up the tracks so the players can come more casual. But Manchester United always turned up with a shot and tie on, which I thought was a great thing, because they wanted to show what they were, wanted to come out there and say, "Look, the way we approach it, "you look at this Manchester United, "I've got to say, I really admired that part of it." - It's interesting, it's an interesting, small, psychological advantage, isn't it, to some degree? I guess it's a statement of professionalism and attention to detail before the balls even kicked. - It is, and, you know, so that takes me back, so you're saying, "No, maybe Sir Alex "who played with him, Chapel Amateurs, "maybe he picked up from his time at from Chapel Amateurs, "you know, the way they had to turn up with shot and ties on "and they had a blazer on." And again, this was just an amateur football team in Glasgow. - You played with many, many clubs over your, almost 600 career games, a few across a variety of different divisions.

What did you learn as a player? (12:13)

That time working as a player, across multiple clubs and multiple divisions, what did that teach you? It's always useful to get a variety of different experiences so that you can kind of create your own perspective on the world. But what did that teach you, those 600 games, as a player? What are the fundamentals? - The fundamentals were, I learnt so much. But my early days when I started at Celtic was probably engraved in me more than anything, because Celtic is an incredible tradition of winning. You know, winning now, obviously, Celtic had to win with style as well. Celtic were the biggest club with Rangers in Glasgow in Scotland, I should say. And because of that, Celtic had to win was always so important. So, you know, I could see the first team, there was the reserves, there was the youth team. And all the managers were under pressure to win. Then if you did win, then it was, what was the score? You won one nothing, that's not good enough. You need to win three, a four nothing, you need to win back more goals. And how did you play? We didn't play that well, we scored a no in the group of the Scrappy. Not good enough, you have to win with style. So I think my early days, I was brought up with brilliant footballers, people who showed me, I don't know if you want to call it a philosophy, because philosophy might be much deeper and might offer much more. But it gave me some way to say, "Well, I have to win, I have to find a way of winning." You know, if I can win with style, that's even better. But more importantly, I have to find a way of winning. And I picked that up properly for my early days at Celtic. And I wasn't near that long. No, that wasn't near that long, but I wasn't near that long, probably as a senior player, I moved on and ended up bobbing round the championship and a couple of the lower leagues in England for a long time. But I come across some really great managers. I come across so much where, so good. But I always tried to be respectful to anything because that came from my background and my upbringing. But I was trying to pick up everything I could in. When I was 20, I had already qualified as a full-time, full-ale-licensed coach at the time. You know, to be a coach, you had to have an-ale-licensed, it was called. Now you have to have a pro-license, but you have to have an-ale-licensed, I'd qualify as a coach when I was 20, 21, which was unusual. And the reason I'd done that was because the coaching courses were, obviously, full of really experienced managers, full of really lots of players trying to get into management. The only reason I went and done it was hoping that I'd become a better player, I thought that if I went on these coaching courses, it'll help me become even better as a player. And I had a really good career, but not quite at the elite level, which I really wanted to be. - Whose idea was that to go and do a coaching course at 20 years old to improve yourself as a player? - My own, because I thought that maybe I'd find out more about it, but I have to say, there was a thing when we were young players, we were, when we were 16, we were sent to the courses to help the coaches, so we were called the runners, so we were down there to do all the running, you know, you had to do all the running, you had to be a feel-by, you had to be a feel-purn, and all the practices were put on for the coaches. And no Scotland had great, great coaches at the time, people at Saralex, Jim McLean, Walter Smith, you know, I could go on, and on Scotland had brilliant coaches without naming the likes of Jock Steen and Bill Shankley, and you could go on and on, George Graham, for example. So I was sent down by cell taking, I was one of the runners for a couple of years, and once I was down I said, "I want more of this, "I want to be around football people." I loved listening to them, I hoped that I would impress some of them who were managers of really big clubs at the time, and that's what I thought, "Well, no, I'm going to do my bad use myself," and went on to do them in Scotland. - Well, your time at Celtic in the first team, when you got signed there, it was three years, right?

What does a winning culture look like? (16:25)

You were in Celtic? - Yeah, yeah. - You then got to experience other cultures and clubs, but you cite Celtic as having that sort of winning mentality that some clubs just have, where they're almost, you know, they just, they get used to, like, develop the habit of winning. Throughout your career, you've been in clubs that have the habit of winning, but also clubs that maybe have struggled in the opposite direction and don't have that culture of we always win every game. When you think about the clubs you've worked in that have that habit of winning like Celtic did, what is that? How is, where does that come from? And what does it look like and feel like? - It looks like you walk in every morning, with your chest out, your head high, and you're sort of confident in what you're doing. There's a motivation to keep it going, not to let it drop. There's something about having to continue to improve to stay at the top that you can't just do what you're doing, which is going to keep you there forever. You have to keep trying to find a way of doing so. I did see that and I feel that and I've seen it at other clubs since, but I have to say, I think on the journey to probably where I am today is probably more that seeing a lot of the other side as well was actually the bit which I've been a clubster I've been getting relegated, I've been a clubster I can't win, I've been a clubster where it's not going well, I've been a clubster where there's, it's not been as powerful as say a club with Celtic. So I think you have to see it all round for you to give yourself the best chance. And I keep saying to get to become a football manager, I don't think there's any one plan, you could be the best player on the planet and not become a football manager. You could be someone who's never played the game and become incredibly successful as a football manager. So I don't think there's necessarily one way you do it. - I'm really intrigued by this idea of like cultures at clubs and within teams and how you can just feel it almost when a club has that momentum and they're winning team and when they don't. On the country then when we're thinking about teams that are struggling and that aren't performing well. What are the signs of that? Now Rio said something really interesting, I wasn't very, Gary Neville said something interesting to me. He said that when he was at Manchester United, Sir Alex Ferguson only came into the dressing, training ground dressing room twice. And he said he never needed to come in there 'cause the culture was in there. So if like when Berbertoff came over and wasn't faking the culture, the players would correct. He then says when he went to QPR, when the manager left the changing room, everyone was talking about their wages and where they're going next. You can feel that like. - Yeah, there is a difference. I actually think the culture, I mean, that team that you're talking about Manchester United were had incredible players and no, I wouldn't say self-made because they had a great manager but if you look, now if I move to just now, I'd be saying there's much more communication in life now. - I came from background with really tough to Scottish managers. I know they probably, the working background they came from, they would be out screaming at you at half time, they would be screaming at the end of the game. You know, they would be, they would be after you if you didn't do well. I don't think that culture's there and I don't think, I think it's changed completely in Scottish managers. Now if you look at what Scottish managers probably over history, Scotland had lots of managers in English, Premier League for example, very few now and it might be that we're having to change your culture. So going back to a little bit, what you're talking about Rio said, getting in there, I think there was a period where the players looked after themselves or they could take the hard hitting, hairdryer treatment if you want to call it that. Now I think it's a completely different culture now whether we've changed or whether I feel as if management is not necessarily in that form. I don't think, I don't know, maybe Steve, you tell me even better, you're here, the businesses, would you go in and be screaming, "Bloom, what did it, your staff know?" - Do you know what, the thing, one of my, actually I think it's an advantage is I didn't grow up in that culture. So I've never known it. I've never known the prospect of like coming into work and like, what did you hear about it in some old businesses where like this year would come in and throw things and throw the table over and stuff? I just never grew up in that environment. I grew up in a sort of a societal expectation that a manager is like, you know, might be tough and sometimes but it's fairly nice. There's no like big glass office that I sit in away from my team members. It's a different world these days. What, as you relate, you were talking about there, you said that it's kind of a different world in management. You've been in, you know, the job since you had, I guess 20 in your early 20s. You're 59 now? - I'm 59 and I've probably been in management since I was early 30s when I started and then. - So 25, 30 years, you talk about the change that you've seen in the approach that is effective now.

Affective management styles (21:27)

What is effective now? If once upon a time Scottish manager could come in and hairdryer it and scream or whatever, whatever, how has the approach changed in your view? - Well, let me tell you, I remember, remember one of the managers coming in to address them and all we said is don't look up. Just look at the floor, look at your boots, look down because if he catches his eyes, he's gonna come for it. So it used to be don't look up so that he couldn't have any eye contact where you had to, you know, and you probably put your head in the towel so that he couldn't see. And because that was the way it was, it was that. And I think that I probably had a lot of that in movement I first started. But the difference now is I think we're in a different, and maybe yourself, maybe you'll understand it's a different era. So as a coach and as a manager and as a man, I think you need to find a way of how you're moving on with that or you'd be left behind. And I've got to say, I think in my position, I've got to admit, I have to keep trying to keep up, renew, invest in more work to find out how it's going on. There's so many new things. And don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean that I've still not got the bit of anger in me when I think the players need it. And I actually think that, I think they like it. I think sometimes they like it. I think people want to be told the truth. And I think one of the worst things you can do to people is, is I think if you keep praising people all the time, I think it makes you soft as well. So I think there's a level of praise you can give people. But I think you've also got to be really tough with your praise as well. And I actually think that as I've got older, I've become better in giving praise. I think the sum of my players, I'm sure it ever turned out to me, would say that I very rarely gave them praise because I was always looking for a better problem. - You know, over the last, I don't know, I've been in business, what, 10 years or something. Not as long as you in terms of management, but even I've started to notice some like warning signs in people. So like, if I see this in the interview process, I say, "Okay, well, I saw this before "and then it ended in this way." For like pattern recognition. You've talked a lot about, and I've read a lot about your scouting process, how you find great talent and great players. What are the things you look for in the things that you consider to be warning signs? - I always wanted someone who I thought was putting in effort. - Okay. - I always thought that, and you might say, "Well, how can that come "in front of many other things?" Well, I can think of many, probably you, and you'll think of plenty of school boys, friends, who were truly talented players, but very, very, very, didn't work dedicated, didn't put in the effort to, didn't do the work. I think if you don't put the effort in the dedication to it then, and the other thing that I use a lot is, you know, if you don't love the game completely, then you'll probably find it really, I think you'll find it really difficult to become a manager if you don't love the game with, or have real longevity. I think you could be a player, and maybe get through your career 10, 15 years as a player, with maybe without loving football. But I think if you want to go longer, I think you've badly got to love the business. When I became manager of Everton, but I did it before, I used to always meet the players, and I still do if I can. You nearly wanted to see their eyes, to see a need you to work hard, and need you to know to do this job for the team. I like to see, are you going to take that? I'm going to be critical of, you know, I want you to get better, are you happy with it? You nearly wanted to put the questions over to them to see if they were going to take it. Did you? I did, to many players. And I've got to say, we've had quite a few over the time, which I've got to say, who I've had in my house, who I've had in offices, and we've probably not taken them. Sometimes because a bit like you said, sometimes something just makes you go, that's just not what I quite wanted to hear. And that might only be a gut, and it might not. It might have no reason in the, some of the boys I'm talking about, I've gone on to be superstars and play for other players. But something at the moment can only give you that little bit of gut feeling. If you think it sounds like it's going to fit for you. And I'm not saying you get it right, but I think at that time you have to be your own, your own sort of things, what you're saying. Well, I'm not going to change. This is what I want you to do, and I want to keep it this way. And I've somehow missed out on some. How does that process work? If you're looking, let's say you're looking for a striker. What's the process? You know, because we've heard some, I don't mean, my only understanding of like signing players is playing like football manager on the PlayStation or whatever. But I have in my head, you have all these scouts, they produce reports.

The process of signing players (26:00)

And then do you know what position you want to fill? Do you go to the scout or what happens? I think in the main, the scouts will probably bring them to you. I mean, like, if it's somebody playing for one of the teams locally or that and it's available and you think there's a chance, then you'll probably try and do your homework. You'll try and know, obviously, statistically you'll try and get it right. You'll try and look at the strengths and weaknesses. You'll take any consideration, maybe the price is going to cost, where you think it's, you know, where it fits in for you, what you can do. But the ones you don't know are what you're looking for, your scouts to bring to you. And in quite a lot in modern football, it's the agents who are bringing them, you know, because the agents are playing such a huge part, you know, whether you see it as a positive or a negative, they're playing such a huge part behind the scenes in football at the moment. And these people will bring it, obviously, if you're trying to sell something, you're always going to talk it up. But in the end, you know, we would, or I would always try and get my scouts to go through it. They would probably say, yes, this is worth coming and looking at, come in, we should, we'll go and sit and we'll, we'll sit for a few hours watching. If we wanted to take it even further, then we would go into much further detail with events. They probably start trying to find out people who know the boy, or has played with the boy, and trying to get a bit of his character background, would try and find out more about, you know, is he the right type, you know, is he a good boy, is he a good trainer, is he going to be disruptive in the training? I think all those things are really, really part of it. I don't think any, don't think any football manager wants people who are not going to fit in, and in what was it. And I'm guessing, are a revert back to business, probably you're the same, or you don't want people who are not going to fit in with what you've got. You want somebody who's going to come in and blend in and be part of it? What was your best ever signing? Ah, but I always say, Nigel Martin assigned Nigel Martin, the goalkeeper who was a little bit united, and he was on a free from the United, and we took him to Everton at the time. And it's only because he was a free, but not only that, he was a great goalkeeper, obviously he had been an England goalkeeper, he was probably near at the end of the time, but he gave me about four, five years of stability. But see, when people talk about signing, you're best signing, over the time I've never been, I've made that many signings, I've got, you know, it would be, it's really pretty shameful, I mean, even a name one, because I've got so many that I could say. You don't have to, I would not ask you to name your worst signing, but where have you frequently got it wrong when signing players? Er... No, what I think you do is, I think it's the ones I've missed. The ones who you've said, "No, I don't think he's quite good enough. "I think I'm winning, don't think I'm winning." And I've had hundreds of them. Who's the one you missed the most at? Well, just recently, because it's, because we've been talking about it, you know, we've been Alvarez, who's just played for Argentina in the World Cup, you know, was, I brought in a new scout who says, "Look, you should go for Alvarez at a river plate." And I watched him, I watched this, "Oh, very good, really good technician." I thought, "Hey, he'd done so many good things "as a center for a bit." I thought, "Maybe not quite the one we want, "maybe he didn't quite, "we had Mickey Antonio, "who'd been doing very well." I thought, "I don't know if he's..." And you see, sometimes the players change in six months, but I have to say, there's other players like that who you don't take and don't go on to be a real success, but that one at the moment is just one, because it was probably only a year ago where I decided, "No, I don't think it's probably "the one we're going to take." It's the same in business. No matter how many people you hire, it's always still guessing. Yeah. I was speaking to my friend Gary Vaynerchuk about this, who's hired about 5,000 people, and he said to me, he says, "You know, I've been in this game for 30 years "and I'm still just guessing, "because we can come up with all the principles "and systems we want, but how someone... "People change, but also how they present in an interview "can be drastically different to how they present "in six months' time when they're comfortable." You know what? It's really interesting, I'm asking you, I hear now and I hear, because there's so many jobs changing our industry, you say is, "How do you pick a good football coach now? "How would you pick a football manager, "whatever you want, but how would you pick "a good football manager? "What would give him the owners or the people "who are doing it? "How are they picking it?" Because again, what I said is, yes, of course, we can think of some real special people who would be in that group, but if you're at a lesser club, trying to pick a new talent, you know, why would you get it? Is he got the drive, is he got the energy, has he got the love for the game to stay with it? Has he got an idea that he wants to go further and he's gonna put the work in? It's really hard, and sometimes you can't find him and I get the feeling it's the same in industry now as well. Yeah, yeah, I think the more I've hired, the more I've realized that it's just guessing, which I think people will be surprised at 'cause people will think that you'll get progressively better or your confidence will all grow. My confidence has actually fallen with experience. Yes. So what that means for me is that when I hire someone and I know it's not right, just very quickly, you have to make a decision 'cause the worst thing is indecision, right? We can, wasting too long. That's it. We have the same situation we're talking about is, we're buying players and we're spending a lot of money that you are and then you're saying, no, but you can't do this, but we don't think you can do that. And at times, maybe the older you think this becomes easier, it actually becomes harder the more you're in it because you've probably seen the good ones, the bad ones. Yeah, this is, we follow this path to try and get a good win, but not so good anymore. We're gonna follow another path. So I've got to say, no hiring people and bringing them in is not an easy thing to do. It's slightly different, I guess, in business because as the CEO, I, in business, usually get to make the decision about who you're hiring. I mean, sometimes, of course, managers at low levels make that decision, but in football, there's often a conversation that the board or the owner has stepped in and has told you who to sign and who to buy. Well, I think that's one of these things really in football where you would say, "If an owner was gonna do that, you'd say, "No, come on, it's not right." It is part and parcel of football. Now it's rife in football where a lot owners are making the signings instead of the manager. Has the owner ever asked you to sign a player? Yes, yeah, they have, yeah. What did you say to that? I've tried to say, I've said no to it. You know, and I've said, "No, it's not the way I do it." What, no, if the players are good, I'd be seeing great, bring me them in. But then what we would do is if we get the name of a player, then we would try and do our homework and try and do other stuff. And by the way, we might be wrong, we're accepting that. But if we follow the correct process or what we believe is the correct process and it still comes out, no, we have to go with what we say. Now, if the process says, "Hey, by the way, "we're hearing he's a good player, "he's going lots of goals, he's young, "resellable, if it doesn't work," if all those other points come up then, we're saying, "Oh, wait a minute, "maybe we have to think about it." But I think really trusting your process and holding that the longevity I've had will probably hope that you've made more right decisions than wrong decisions, but the time you get round to make the final decision. - I guess one of the things you can control, which doesn't have to be a guessing exercise, is the culture that they join. So if the culture that they join is good, then there's a higher chance of them being successful as a player, as a new signing. - I agree.

How do you make sure theres a solid culture at West Ham? (33:41)

- How do you do that at the clubs you're managing now, West Ham, have you done that in the past, to make sure the culture is right? And what is that culture? - Yeah. Well, I think for me the biggest one was, when I was at West Ham the first time we came in, we thought we'd done a good job, and we kept the team up, we were asked to come in, we kept the team up, and we didn't get the job, and then another manager came in, and we were out of work for a year. So then, to be fair to the owner David Sullivan, he phoned me up, I come and he says, "Would you come in?" I says, "Yeah, love to come back, no problem." I felt I had to do a bit more at West Ham, or had to try, and I keep using it, and I say it, I want to build a new West Ham. So what does a new West Ham mean? But a lot of people, a lot of supporters might not like the sort of that, but West Ham would move to a new stadium. It's not been appreciated by everybody, but that's what we're gonna be, it looks like for the next 100 years, that's what it looks like, the club's gonna be there. So we need to make the best we possibly can of it. I want to change the cut, I want there to be lots of young kids come to West Ham. East End of London's a huge area, full of West Ham supporters, a lot of poverty in the area. West Ham offer great ticket prices, great opportunities. They do brilliant work in the community West Ham, and East End of London, they really do. And I want to encourage all the young kids. Now what do you need? You need exciting players so that the young kids won't want their bio-jares, so that they're not following the top two or three teams in the country, and you want them to come. So I've tried to change, I've tried to change the team, but deep down I'd really like to say, I'm trying to make West Ham better. And it used to always do it. All the people, I was a manager, I haven't, I was a manager, I've managed it. I'd write it in other clubs, forward to say, "Ah, you get a flaky West Ham." You know, they're not that reliable, and you don't know what West Ham team is going to turn up. Well, I want to change that culture. There's so much room for improvement at West Ham. You know, I think it's got great potential to improve. And I hope that you get, I get the opportunity to keep it going over the couple of really, really good years. Success for West Ham has been success. And it's how we continue that success and how we build on it. And I think if you're in business, I think you'll accept it, you know, quite often you have a couple of years or a good year, and then you might not have it quite so good, because we're a little bit like that at the moment. So I'm hoping that culturally, I think we have changed. I think we've changed a load of things at West Ham. We're not milky, we're not flaky. I think there's a different atmosphere in East End, a London regard in how people see West Ham. I like the way we've done it, but we've also got some really exciting young players who those young supports are talked about, could follow. What are those next steps then? If you reflect back on what you did at Everton, you took them from being that kind of, you know, happy to survive club to, and you last, I think in your last eight years, you finished in the top. You last seven years, you finished in the top, one of the two. In your last eight years, you finished in the top eight, seven times or something along those lines. They became a consistent, competitive team at the top end of the table. When you look at where West Ham is now, as we sit here now 16th in the table, what are those, but after two amazing years in the two previous years where West Ham were absolutely fireworks, to be fair. Dangerous, very, very, very dangerous team to play against. I'm not Manchester United fan, so, I remember the last two years have been really, really incredible for West Ham. What are those steps forward now to get West Ham to being that team that is competing at the very top of the table? And it's fine, it's so interesting that in fact, when you answer this question, you don't just think we need to Bible players, it's kind of more of a holistic, wider, broader job and needs to be done. Yeah, I actually think that we've bought our players and I think that, you know, I've gone out there and said, "This is what I'm doing." I sometimes, I think, in football, not that you need to break it, but we had a really good team for the last two years. But we had a few, Mark Noble was coming to them, one or two other players were coming to them, we had to change and we were actually short, and numbers were really short, the players have done. I felt as if I nearly had to break up a little bit because I had seen signs now. My experience, my longevity was telling me if I don't do this now then I'm going to feel I'm going to be caught out. Now, we probably didn't do quite as well from January on, last year that was my feeling. We had some brilliant nights, we got to semi-final, European football, we had been challenging all years. I mean, in the last game of the season, we finished sevens, but we were 10 minutes away from finishing six up off Manchester United. You know, so the margins were incredible, we're smaller than all this, but I felt that now with the age I'm nearly seeing is, I don't really give a shit now, I've got to say, I'm not going to get many more goals at this. So if I don't make a goal to it, I don't really do what I think is right in what I want to do, then I'll regret it. So this part of me said, yeah, we had to bring in new players and we've gone out and we've put our head on the block and said, here we go, brought these new players in. Now what I really need is hope that I can get a little bit time to set and get themselves in. I think we've brought in good players. I think we have got a better squad. Maybe not a better team at this exact time than what we had last year, but we've definitely got better players, which I believe will show that in the coming months. Do you worry about that losing your job? Is that something that like sits in, you might, I wouldn't, in my business, I mean, other than one of us at Social Media and I had a board of directors, we were a public company, so technically they could fire me. It's not something that I think about. If I perform badly as an executive, the company goes down. So there's no one that's going to cut. It's good. Well, what I'd say is, I think it's a young manager I worried much more. Yeah. I think no in the position I'm in, no in, we're going, I worry far, far less because it's in my blood. I love the game. I want to be here. I'm enjoying what I'm doing, but it wouldn't be the end of the earth if something went wrong for me, you know, where I'm at, but my pride, my determination is that I want to be successful and I want to, I want to know, be, do a really good job for West Ham. So, but I think when you're younger, if you look now at young managers, young managers find it very difficult. If you don't do well in your first job, maybe like business, you know, in business, maybe you have a going, something fails, nothing quite work. You're nearly 10 to 50 think I could go again. Maybe nobody will help invest this, may, whatever it may be. So, it's so important you do get it right when you do go in, but going back to, if I just have to, because I want to, I think you need people who are really supportive at the start. I had a great owner, a press in North End, couple of great owners who really supported me. When I went to West Ham, I had great men who helped me at that time as well. And I think sometimes you need to be a bit lucky on your journey, that, you know, if you turn up at a club where an owner's making the signings or you're not, he's only going to give you half a dozen game steps to show what you can do, you're probably going to find it's going to be very difficult to succeed. So, maybe a bit lucky at the start, but I wanted much more when I was younger than I would do now. That success that you want the time to achieve at West Ham, what is that success? What is the goal for West Ham?

The goal for West Ham (41:33)

If we sat here in, you know, let's say 10 years, five years time. That's too long in front of these days, five years time. What's the goal? I think we've been successful. Yeah. I think West Ham have been successful in the last two years. And what you, no, really the one should do the great winners and the serial winners are the ones who once they get a bit of success. All the one is more of it. I'd love to be sitting here, bringing my trophies in here in front of you and putting them up and saying, "Look at these trophies, I've not got that. What have I got? Periods of success. My teams have done well. We've got to Europe. We've got to Cup final here and there. We've got to semi-finals." So not everybody in the industry can have success. Not everybody can know what they're about with their medals and at the moment, I'm not, but I still believe there's still a big chance that I can do that. Is that your KPI of success? Is that what you... No, it's probably not now. It's not now because I actually think... Staying the job wouldn't be a bit longevity is a really important thing in any work if you can stay in it and you can... It's no, it's a big thing. It's shown that you've done a good enough job. But you know, I've had a cut. I've been forcing off with a few manager of the Year Awards over the years, you know, the last few years have been nominated for it. But I've said many times, I'd swap it for one of Josie Marinios, Slummin' medals if I got the chance, you know, one of these trophies all day long. So that's still got to be what I'm driving to do. Now, they're not going forever because I'm getting older and I don't want to be as old as cerulex or Roy Hodgson when they've finished those sort of people. But I still get the energy, I still get the drive. I feel as if I've got a good team and I feel as if I'm still capable of keeping up with those younger ones. Quick one.

Ads (43:22)

We are lucky enough to have Intel sponsoring this podcast. And in previous episodes, I've introduced the Intel EVO platform, the badge of approval for high spec laptops that will enable you to be more productive on the go. All of their designs are tested to make sure they're extremely thin and making them super portable, and they also have a high quality display and camera features. For example, this Samsung device that I'm using for those of you that are watching on YouTube or Spotify is super light, making it the perfect on the go device, whether I'm working in a plane or I'm in the car or wherever I am on the go. With Intel EVO, you don't need to sacrifice. You get the performance you need, but in a stylish and lightweight design. So now you know, all you need to do is to look for the Intel EVO badge to be assured of performance. And as always, to find out more head to intel.co.uk/evo. Quick one from our longest standing sponsor here. I can't tell you over the last, and say over the last, really it's been about two and a half years. It was really post pandemic, how much my health has become such a huge priority in my life. And I have this laser laser focused on what I'm putting into my body. It's funny because as you get older, you can start to feel the things you're putting into your body more and more and more. And if I put something into my body that's machine things like gluten, if I put those things in my body, I feel them tremendously the next day. My energy levels and my sleep and everything in between. Heal has been probably the most important partner in my health journey because I've been in the board rooms. I've been to their offices tens and tens and tens and tens of times. I've seen how they make their decisions on nutrition. And I trust it. Most of my team that are in this room with me consume it and get the benefits of it too. So if you haven't already tried, you'll do so. Sir Alex.

Being asked to manage Manchester United (45:04)

Sir Alex. There's been a lot said about Sir Alex. I talk about him a lot because I've interviewed so many of his former players. There was a lot of rumours that he went to your house and asked you to become the manager of Manchester United. No, he took me to his house. Oh, he took you to his house? Yeah. And actually I'll tell you the story, Steve. It wasn't long after I turned 50 and my wife had bought me a watch. And actually we had gone through to Manchester to the duels. I needed to get a link taken out. And it was actually in all places. I was in all places. And the phone rang and it was a... It was Sir Alex. And I saw that I said, "Oh, what do you... It's Alex on the phone." And I thought, "Oh, he's going to want one of my players. He's going to want me to take one of his players. He's coming on. He sees something." And he said, "Where are you?" I said, "I'm in Manchester." He says, "Right, come out to the house when you're ready. Well, yeah." I said, "And that's a poor Sir Alex accent probably." So don't do it. Me too. And I said to the wife, "I can't do it. I'm in my jeans. I couldn't go to Sir Alex for a pair of jeans on. There's no way." So I'm saying, "Oh, what am I going to do? I go down to your marks and Spencer's and buy a pair of trousers before I go to Sir Alex." You know? So she's saying, "Ah, can we just go and get on with it and do it?" So anyway, dropped my wife off at the shop centre. And I drove out to Sir Alex's house. And he went in. And he says, "And you come." And very nice house. And he's got a lovely sort of room, sports room up the stairs. And he says, "What a cup of tea?" He says, "I took a cup of tea." And he said, "I'm retiring." And you're the next manager of Manchester United. No interview. No telling me. Not saying, "Would you like to be?" No, "I'm retiring." And I nearly slipped down. It was a little so I nearly slipped down because obviously that was nobody knew that Sir Alex was retiring. Nobody knew. No, nobody even suggested. I thought about it. And I nearly slipped down. I heard him say that. And he says, "You're the next manager of Manchester United." And I just sort of went, "Yeah, well, no, okay. I wasn't going to turn around. I think I would ever say no or I could even know I was in a position to say no." And that was as simple as that. "We got underway," he said. And there was only maybe, and to be fair, there was only four weeks to go to the end of the season. Maybe five weeks to go to the end of the season. I was coming out of contract to Everton. And I was really want to be respectful to them. And actually, my next game was against Liverpool. On this Sunday, I think I met Sir Alex in the midweek on Wednesday or something, on this Sunday. And I knew that if we had got a draw with Liverpool, we would probably finish up all of them in the league. And it was at Anfield and we did, we got a draw and we did finish up with them. So it didn't have any effect on what I was doing ever. But the big thing was to say, and then the next day he said, "I want you to come back to my house tomorrow." Edward was going to come and see. He's going to be the new chief executive who he says, "David Gil's leaving as well." And that was it and I met Edward on the next day. And then the next day, back to his house again, we met the Glazers. And so it was three days, three days, we were a drop back to his house. The biggest problem I had was, he said, "And you can't tell M.D. about me retiring." He says, "No Dinos." That's a problem. He says, "Tell your wife a bit. So I couldn't tell my kids. I couldn't tell my dad. I couldn't tell my dad that I was going to get the job or I was getting the job." So that for me was how it happened. And when I look back now to get that offer from probably, arguably, the greatest manager maybe I ever was was a great compliment. But maybe if I'd really looked into more detail and more depth, then I was desperate to be successful as a manager and I had 11 years at Everton where we said we'd... Wouldn't you say we'd hit the glass ceiling, but we would find it really difficult to break into the top four, the competition and the money was required. But my biggest regret was that I was so close to Bill Kenwright, the owner at Everton. And I couldn't tell him and it felt really bad that I couldn't tell him because I was so close to Bill. But I couldn't break my word for it out. So I said he didn't want me to tell it. So I couldn't tell M.D. about my wife. So jump back in the car, throw back to the shop mall, shop centre, got the wife, put her in the car, and I said, "I'm the new manager of Manchester United." And she was like, "Wait, you got the piss off your top salt rubbish." So that was it and that was how it went. You were coming to the end of your contract with Everton at the time. What was your plan? You hadn't signed a contract. No, you must have been thinking. I had to say as I had been... I think my plan was probably to stay at Everton. We just hadn't got it done for different reasons. I was wanting to see how it was going. But I have to say I'd met a couple of other clubs. I'd met a couple of really big clubs who'd approached me and phoned me and spoke to me. "What was it doing? Would it be interested?" The truth is I don't think I'd have left for any of them because Everton had been so good to me. But I was also wary about over staying here. Welcome, ever. Sometimes just in management, supporters want change. They want to try something different and I get it. I'm a huge football supporter. If I wasn't managing, I'd be watching football and I'd be probably talking about it like everybody else does. But it came up. I've got a chance to manage, probably the biggest club in the world, on phoned a club who always give their manager's time. They give Sir Alex time. And also that their values were no de-played young players, man, you're outed. I always thought my engineer'd never went out and tried to buy the best on the market. They never went to the designer shop to buy the best thing in the designer shop. They bought correctly. They bought young players. They bought, you know, you look at the players they had, which they come through from Bex and the Neville's and all the other ones who came through. They always did something a bit of style about them. They never went out to get the best overseas manager in the world. They picked which fitted their model. So I actually felt when Sir Alex offered me the job and Manchester United were given me the job, I felt they thought I must have been the best choice for the job at that time. And they saw that. And also maybe not similar, but similar in a way that maybe there was a similar background, a similar upbringing, a similar route maybe to get to the point. So I trusted Manchester United. I really did have trusted them because of what they stood for as a football club. You know, many times when you're successful as you were at Everton, you're given big opportunities. It's the same in business. People come to me and give me these huge opportunities. And sometimes like the bright lights of the opportunity have often caused me to make a wrong decision or not to take, you know, take the right amount of due diligence as you described. They're like not really looking into the details because it's such a big thing that you almost can't say no to it. You said there that you wish you looked a little bit closer to the details. What do you mean by that? Well, tell you who told me was Howard Wilkinson. Said to me down the line, I wish he'd told me before he says, "All the managers who have a dynasty." So when you look at it, I think it was Brian Clough was one of them. I think the other one was Sir Bobby Robson. All the managers who had a real dynasty, I'm trying to think, lead United managers, well, Don Raven maybe as well. I think it was Emdi who followed them. Never worked. Now, I never even thought for a minute because I thought to myself, "No, I'll come in and I was thinking, I'm not changing. I'm going to try not to change much with Sir Bobby." I was like, "Of course I have to change it. It's not Sir Alex. It's me and I have to do it my way and I have to try and do it a little bit." But ultimately, I was going to keep it going. But then when I looked back at the things that I heard, I thought, "My goodness, if I'd looked a bit closer." And maybe even now, I'm a bit older now than I was when I got the job. Maybe even more experienced and maybe even I had it at that point, maybe we'd be more ready. This period in my career than I was even saying, no, I don't know what it was, eight and nine years ago, whenever it was. So if they called you now? Well, they've got a really good manager, I think. I think this thing about Manchester United, Manchester United have chosen incredibly good managers, probably some of the best managers. Some of the best managers you could ever imagine have been at Manchester United. So sometimes you've got to say, if you're quite bright and I'm sure you are with the business you're working, it's not always the boss's fault that this doesn't go right. So I took over at a difficult time, which quite a few senior players probably coming to near the end of their time. But all I have to say, I was really proud that I took over the Champions England when I was a time and that was, I'm saying, what a chance I've got. Maybe the opportunity to win trophies, the opportunity to be successful, and it was the thing I was probably missing from my time at ever, and that wasn't quite getting close enough to win in trophies. Would you, Eric Tenhaugaside, I think he's great. I think we both agree there. But would you ever be open to coming back to Manchester United in the future if they'd asked? Well, I don't think it would ever be in a role as a manager. That's for sure. So that my time's gone. But, you know, if ever, I always love to be involved in football. And hopefully somewhere I want to win, someone who want to use my experience when my time's up was being a football manager. But Manchester United is a great experience. And I found it difficult to sort of have something which could sort of, I don't know, how I would sort of put over what it meant. And the only way I could put it out is I think when you manage man, you're hated, it's like living in the penthouse and looking out. You know, and until you've had the penthouse and you're looking out and you're above everybody and you're looking over, you see the view much better for me to be able to penthouse. One of the big things that did change at Manchester United, and I only know this because I had a season ticket.

Culture change at Manchester United (56:03)

The ladies and the men that serve you the food in like the hospitality suite or whatever, they always have a great relationship with them and they would tell me things about how the club was. Maybe before I could add enough money to buy a season ticket. One of the things they always said was the role that David Gill had on the club as well. People don't think, understand that enough, but David Gill was the CEO of the club. And I mean, I've seen in my own businesses when the CEO, me, was removed, it was a completely different place. And people don't understand that because as fans we look at the manager and think, "Ah, but if the managers in my business are very, very, very important, but the person above them has the most power and the most control and the most sway is the CEO." Now that changed and the wonderful people at Manchester United would tell me that when David Gill was here, he knew all of our names. And that really struck me, that he knew all of our names. He knew all of our birthdays, we used to see him, now we don't see Edward Wood anymore. We don't see the chief executives anymore, they don't know our names. That's a real sign of a cultural change. Definitely. Just think of the values that that is. Yeah. The values of the CEO sending you a Boston card, I don't know. I mean, I would be incredibly complimentary about Sir Alex. Sir Alex would phone up managers who had lost a job or managers who had been successful. He phoned me up when we were doing very well at West Ham six months ago, whenever it was. They were always correct. And when you think of values of what it means to be at the top and what the things, small things, which matter, those things really matter. But for me, I was taken over the club at Lost David Gill, who I knew very well from different things and working with them at UF and different things as well. And he was a huge, huge miss. But that wasn't to say that the new CEO wasn't, he was to be given every chance and I wanted to help him and he wanted to help me, ultimately, then what that way. You said you trusted the club to give you long enough. Do you feel like that trust was let down? How do you feel about that? Yeah, I do a bit because I feel that, you know, I think that if you're putting in a new manager, you're hoping that you're going to give them, and look at our left, a very stable job and a very good environment to come and do it. And obviously, you know, I think when we look back, you would say, "Hi, there was a huge change going to have to take plays at Manchester United after Saramax." And maybe, ideally, I think we were going to try and make it seamless, but there wasn't going to be too big a change. But there was a lot of players changing, you know, getting to an age where they were having to move on. There was actually a big squad of players who had been incredibly loyal to Saramax, and suddenly they've got new managers coming in the door, maybe not playing them as much, so they don't have quite the same sort of closeness to instill building up relationship. So I think there was a lot of that, and it made it difficult. But, you know, the thing that I look back at business in here, a very successful businessman, always think you have to give bad news well, because you're the boss, and you run a really big business like Manchester United did. And I think if you've got any class or any style, it's good when you get off of the job, and you give them all the, and you talk about all the same. But I think when you're having to give bad news out, I think even bad news has to be done in a good way as well. And I felt the way that I was told at the time at Manchester United wasn't done as well as it should have been done. But, you know... The way that you were told you weren't going to be management? Yes, sir. You know, there was ways it could have been done better, and it could have been made a lot easier than what it was. No. I've heard this from former players. I've heard former players tell me that they were really disappointed by how the club, specifically Edward, would gave them their send-off. I think it was Rio that said to me that, like, just came into the dressing room, tapped me on the shoulder and told me that this was my last game, or that they were selling me or something. And that doesn't pay respect to... No. It doesn't. And I actually think that... Looking back now, hey, you think to yourself, hey, it's life got on with, you know, that's the way it is when you're in an industry or you're in, you do that. But I still think that... I think if you're the biggest, one of the biggest sport businesses in the world, if not the biggest, you would hope that you would do things correctly. Like David Gill would say, speaking, say hello to them, or light, they would send a birthday card. So the same should happen if you were telling somebody that you were stopping them, or you were sacking them, or you were getting rid of them. You would hope that they would do it the best way they could. How did you find out? Media. Oh, really? Media phoning me. Yeah. Lost a couple of games. Lost a game ever. And actually, the media was saying, "No, no, you're losing your job." And, you know, I tried to make contacts and say, "Well, quite a way, meet up. You think you're going to be..." It didn't suit before I knew they called me in the day after, and by this time, the whole world didn't know about it before I'd sort of get to know. So sometimes I think people want to get it done right, and I just didn't feel it was right. But anyway, from my point of view, I generally don't have any real... I don't have a gripe about it, because the industry, I mean, means that this can happen quite often, and you don't get things done the way you want it, and you have to live with it. And that's the way it is. In the wake of that, how does it look like at home? This is probably one of the most interesting things that I personally pondered throughout that period as a Manchester United fan, which is when you go from the penthouse, and then the landlord evicts you from the penthouse after, I don't know, 10-11 months at the club, the weight of Manchester United, you know, it's the most talked about club, it's the club that sells the headlines, it gets all the clicks. So everything, it must feel like everything is about you in the world of football. And it's like a very public apparent failure at home. You've got wonderful wife Pamela, you've got two kids. What's it like at home? I think personally you're a little bit ashamed because you've not done anything. You've not done well for your family. So I think personally I felt I'd let them all down because, you know, I'd really worked, like I said, I've known the probably the hours in the work I'd put in as a young, I didn't believe I was ever going to be a coach, never mind the coach, I'm anxious you're not. But the hours of work I'd put in, it got me to a level where I'd worked and I'd done an awful lot of hard work behind the scenes over the years, and then to lose it so quickly. So you get a job. And I said at that time I had two or three really, really big club super were talking about me and speaking to me. But when Sarah Alex came and made me the offer, it was very hard to say no. And then for that to go very quickly. So it was a bit like getting to the top of Everest and then actually starting to climb very quickly. So from my point of view, it was hard going home. You know, it was difficult. But I've got to say, it's a bit like my mum used to just say, hey, whatever happens, you just have to get up and go on with it. You know, you're on with it. You'd be taking the chin and you got away and, you know, sort of sticks in stone. Don't worry too much about it. But you're right. When you're a manager of Manchester United, you're talked about in every continent, every country, you know, either being the front of the back page, just one of the papers. So, but that's also the privilege of being a manager of Manchester United as well. What's the toll of that? If you were to warn me about the toll?

The toll of the criticism (01:03:40)

I think the toll for someone who cares deeply about their profession and wants to be successful and wants to do well, the toll for me personally, at the time, felt big. It really did. And it's probably took me a wee bit to get back on the road a little bit. Without thinking about what drill it, after I lost the job, I said, well, I'm going to have to go and try and reinvent, find out more new things. No keep cutting. Where can I go to find out what's going on? You know, and I obviously couldn't go back to your travel to watch again, but I couldn't really go back to a goodest thing in watch again. So it made it quite difficult, but I found myself doing quite a bit of work for UEFA, and all the Champions League games, which was really good day, and I spoke in all the pro license courses for the coaches, which kept me current and having to keep up to date with things. So those type of things kept me, kept my education, kept my knowledge, and kept me going a bit. But I still think that when you've been at one of the big clubs, it's always a miss because you realise the level that I had. You said the toll is big. In a very practical real sense, what does that mean? Is it sleepless nights? Is it anxiety? Is it? Yeah, I'm someone who sleeps really well, to be honest. But I do think that it's very difficult when you lose your job. And in our business, you know, you're talked about a lot, so you have to accept it. And I'm part of it. You will be as well, or if things go wrong, or any of your businesses feel you'll be current, no people will have criticism. But I think if you're going to go into football management, then you have to find a way of saying how they deal with it, how my coach wants my mechanism. I remember thinking when things weren't going so well, Manchester United, you know, I'd be driving any training. So I couldn't put on talks sport. I couldn't put on Radio 2. I couldn't put the virtual in there. So I thought I'll put on whatever music it was, and they come on and use it, they were talking about me on that news as well. I thought, "Oh my goodness, is this ever going to end? Is there a channel that isn't talking about Manchester United in some way?" And that was because it was getting closer to probably when I wasn't doing so well, and there was a lot of talk about it. But I think you just have to find a way of shutting yourself off from it the best you can. But the world we're in now for young coach, he's of social media. If that's what your world is, or how you present yourself, it's much different now. And in days gone by, in the early days it pressed, I look at the newspaper and there'd be a letter page and there'd be four or five supporters saying, "Why is Ma's not playing him? You know, and what's he doing?" And that used to be where the criticism was mainly coming from. As you well know, now there's a world of it outside. I got to play at the London Stadium. Suck right. It's called London Stadium, wasn't it? Yeah, it's called London. And was in chat to Karen Brady once in a while, I'm seeing her soon. And I met someone while I was at the Soccer Aid experience who happens to be a family member of a player, a big Premier League player, who has taken more abuse than any other player, maybe over the last year. And I met a family member and I got a chat to them. And they told me about the toll it's taken on the whole family. And you never think about that. But that was actually one of the most important things I think I experienced was hearing from someone's younger sister, that watching their older brother be abused, how horrific it is. She was almost in tears. Because, you know, if you and my dad, and I watched that happen to you. Well, I have to say, you know, and it's not, I don't think it's, I'd only a week after I watched the manger or any other job, my dad had a heart attack. Yeah. And it was a, but it was a triple bypass. So I'm not saying it was because of when I left Manchester United. But that was, that was the case. And it, hey, who knows, who knows. If it were then we, we don't really think that was the reason behind it. We think it was just coming on. But so there is tolls we get taken in families, of course, there is. But thankfully my dad's doing well and still going well just now. And then we don't think about, you know, and people will say to you and people like you and players, they'll say, well, you play loads of money to be of yourself. Just deal with it. Yeah. Yeah. But that's, but then the kids aren't. It is part of it. And actually, I do think many, many times I think myself as, you know, do people understand it. We'll get a family. You know, I made this the other days. I was saying to a friend, I've seen this as a manager. I think you should go older, you know, in business, you'll, you'll get older, you, you think you get more experienced and you're, you know, doesn't make it any better. When I was a young manager, if I lost the game, I would come home, go straight to my bed, pull the curtains and not wake up to Sunday morning. No trying and I might not sleep. I just didn't really want any, I didn't really talk. But when my wife too much, I didn't really talk to my kids. I wasn't, I wasn't on players and I just wanted to be on my own. Done that. The opposite then was if you won in a Saturday, I'd come home and say, come on, let's get ready. Let's, let's nip up to the restaurant and we'll get a bit of dinner and a couple of guys say, well, I'm, I had, I used to always call it the Saturday night feeling. I'm desperate to get that Saturday night feeling. I'm desperate to have that feeling when you've won in a Saturday knowing the mainland, the Sunday, you're picking up the newspapers and the newspapers are saying, you've won and you're, you're going well. But, and I thought maybe by the time I get to the aging over a thousand games, I'll be saying to myself, this is going to be much, much feel much easier. Not at all. Just as bad. I'm not saying I'm going home every night. I lose now and pulling the curtains and going straight to bed. But it's to just sort of tell you how, how the game is. The game is actually nearly completely how important the winning in them. And back to it, I said, what the upbringing was, we are, find a way of winning when means that I have more good Saturday night feelings than I do. You can home in the curtains and going straight to bed. Yeah, I don't think about that. You know, you know, when you, you said something a second ago, which is, you know, you'd, you'd reached what I consider to be the very top of the game, managing Everton, because I think about how many tens of thousands of managers there are coaches out there that are, you know, on the Sunday, the Sunday league pitches and all around the country that are aspiring to managing the Premier League. It's insane. It's an insane, insane achievement. You managed to Everton. You went to Manchester United. It didn't go well. In that period, after even though you were at the very top of the game, did you doubt yourself in a post Manchester United? By my pause might make you think, yes, but I didn't doubt that I was actually, I felt that I could do the job. I could be good at it. I felt as if I could, my work on the grass was good enough to, for where I had been, I had success years before. So I was always trying to say, it didn't go quite well this 10 months. Why did it not go well? Was it how it managed? Was it how it coached? Was it maybe I didn't have the right players? I had to try and look to see what there is. But the other part of the 10 or 11 years I'd seen some great players that had been in FA Cup finals, had got to qualify as a European competition. We'd qualified for the Champions League one year. I was thinking as well, was I going to make, say that was all no good then, the years would have done it. So I think once I put it in perspective, then I said, no, I'm not doubting it. But what I do think is, I think most days you have to get up and be ready to sort of challenge yourself every day. I don't think you can get out of bed every morning and think, hey, this is fine. I'm doing OK here. I think every day you're sort of getting up and saying, how am I going to try and be better? How can I make people better? How can I make a difference today with what I've got? Paranoid, almost. Yeah, near enough to an extent when you're saying, no, I can't. No, you folks say, do you bring your work home? I really think if you're in the boss. If you're the boss, you're always bringing your work home because it's not, you're not just putting your head off and saying, I'm leaving that in the office and I'll pick it up in the morning. I think very rarely you're doing that. I think that's just life if you're a CEO or a boss. I very much agree. I very much agree with that idea of taking the work. And also, when things don't go wrong, in hindsight, everybody's quick to diagnose why it didn't go wrong, has the subsequent 10 years where everyone has failed at Manchester United? Felt good. Because everyone has failed. Josay's failed. Van Hal went there. You went there. I'm missing someone. I think I'm missing someone. I mean, Karasin. Ollie was in it. Ollie was in. He failed as well. So that's, you know, five or six great, great managers who couldn't make it work at Manchester United for whatever reason. So I think time has almost been good to you in terms of your story of the time. Look, I have huge respect for Josay Mourinho. Huge respect for Louis Van Gal. Ollie was new and is one of Manchester United's own. So he was always going to be giving every opportunity to try and make it work as well. So I think there's been some great managers going to be Manchester United. I think the biggest problem for Manchester United is Manchester City. How do we, on the Manchester United fan, season take over? How, from your experience, do we get things back to how they were? I think you'll need to probably get rid of Pep somehow from Manchester City. I think that's what we are. I think Pep has, I think there is some managers.

Opinions On Manchester United'S Future

What does Manchester United need to do to get back on track (01:13:45)

I think... But you must have an unbelievable perspective, better than me, at like, what, because you knew Fergie, you knew the club, everything. You've been inside it. What do we need to do to get back to...? I think Manchester United, different principles than most of the other clubs, looked at that used a lot. Didn't always sign, maybe the top diamond always sort of picked out good players who improved. And now and again went and bought a canton either so often, or Van Nistoroi, or Van Pearsy at different times. So at different times they bought really good players at good times. This is actually a really good point because we've also bought some world-class players, we've all failed. Yeah, so there is something about Manchester United had their own way, but because of the competition which came in from Manchester City, Chelsea probably more in the earlier years. I think those two clubs, I think Liverpool have had an incredible period and got a really good manager as well and top players. I think over the year, Manchester United and Liverpool have always had a level of competition against each other. People say we've not spent money in terms of players, we spent shit loads of money, we spent almost a billion, or whatever. And all these players, I remember the foul cows, the D'Mare, because I get excited every time and I celebrate and I start blowing up my friends WhatsApp chats and saying, "You screwed, we're going to win the league." And then every year the player fails and then the managers sacked. So it feels like a bit of a expectation on the new players coming in. I get this all the time and I say this quite a lot. I hear in media, you know, they're talking about, "Oh, you need to buy new players, no, we buy new players." And I said, "I would really like football to be where money was not always going to be the key to it. No, we think the more players you set, the more money you spend means that you win the league or you're successful." And look, I think it probably will prove that it is. But I'd rather see that sometimes that it's not that way. And I just do think that quite often, you know, not buying all the top. That doesn't mean that you have to buy the top. I think it's buying good players and people who get good characters and people who are going to work hard for the team. And then they come into that culture, which makes one make good. Which makes the difference. One class, one equal three, like Leicester that year. The other had was probably what we're all hoping for, whether it be us. And you've seen other clubs. I mean, actually Newcastle United, for example. Newcastle United bought a couple of, with respect, three or four English players last January British players. Probably not necessarily on the radar of the biggest clubs in the country. And they've turned round and they've had incredible momentum from probably January last year, maybe just before January. And I keep an arm momentum going. And now they're bringing in the raddening the odd, bigger star or the bigger players that go along. But I thought the business at the start was very good. If I'm one of your players in your dressing room, to be a David Moyes player at West Ham. What would, from a character and a personality standpoint, your expectation be of me. So that I fit into the culture and I'm successful. I'd like you to be hard working. I want you to be honest in your endeavour. I know I'd want you to do your jobs with everyone. I want you to be a team player. Individuals are really important and no more hugely important. We've just seen in the World Cup individuals. But I do think that I think to have a consistency about your team is you need to have a team. I think if you've got individuals you might get inconsistency. But you might get some really good days and we get clubs who can afford to carry one or two individual players that go along. But I think while you're trying to build, build, I think you have to start with a really solid base, good foundation. And then from that point you try and grow.

Pamela (01:17:45)

Pamela, you met her at a disco. Yeah. She was lucky. So I keep telling her that most people disagree. She's been through it all with you. You know, everything. She's followed you around for decades and supported you in many, many ways. And I've heard about the sort of dynamic in your relationship where she's been really, really supporting. You kind of do a lot of it together. You're there for each other. Tell me in your own words what she means to you, I guess. Well, it's a sort of thing. You ask that question. You'd probably get emotional if you start saying that. So I'm going to say that before I start. Look, my wife has been unbelievable towards me because I remember when we were young at it, we said, "We didn't earn great money. I wasn't, I wasn't a hugely wealthy footballer when I was getting paid. But I wanted to play football and would have taken away. So Pamela worked as well. And we had to work to pay the mortgage when we were together and we were there. So it was very much together at the start, how we could sort of have a family, how we could work together. And I remember saying to her, "I might need to be a football coach." And I remember when we were coaching, I said, "Look, I'll need to go to coaching courses. I might not be here. I want to try and go and see how it does." And I remember saying, "No problem. You're going to do what you have to do." And if I wasn't given that freedom in the early years to say, "I'm going coaching courses, I mean, I went out to see Ancholotti, AC Milan. I went to the World Cup and I have to say, "You know, I remember, I went to the World Cup and I didn't have lots of money at the time. And we weren't skinned, but we didn't have loads of, in the PFA helped fund me. So I think at the time the PFA helped fund me get to the World Cup to go and watch. And I remember writing to, I wrote to about five or six countries and said, "You know, could I come and watch your training?" And none of them replied. The only country that replied was Scotland and Craig was the manager. Now I was a Scottish coach and worked at it, and I was still young at the time. And they invited me to come and watch training in Scotland. None of the other teams did. But my wife let me get away and get on with it and try and seek and find out what I needed to do, probably in the hope that in some way or after my football career was finished, I might have been able to do something else. But she still has a great inspiration to me. And some of my kids are good kids and good family and it's really important to me. What role is she playing pamma in the harder times in your career? I think when you're a football manager, you're going to have hard times. Undoubtedly. So hard times have been a football manager. Hard times sometimes when you get sacked and you get some money for leaving the job, you can look at that and say, "Hey, he's okay with that." But it's not. You get pride. As I said to you, I was probably losing a job. I was more in embarrassment. I felt embarrassed from my family really, they were getting talked about, they were getting looked at, people were shooting, "Yeah, that's a losty job," or whatever it may be at that time. So my wife just always stood by me and really supported me when it comes to the games, probably knows when she should speak and when she shouldn't speak when it's going well and when it's going badly. And even that's a skill in itself because when you're in it, when you're the boss, there's quite often with respect your partner quite often, you could say the wrong thing at any minute and you go, "No, you might be thinking, 'Why are you not thinking about knowing you're in the wrong case?' So I think it's really important that your partner understands exactly how you feel. Where do you think you'd be professionally without her? I couldn't imagine my life really without my wife. And you know some of them, I'm not 59 at the moment, so I thought we've got a good bit to go and we've got a good bit to go. And I want you to look forward to the years, we're latter years together, where we can have more time together because being a football manager means that you're away just about every weekend. So yeah, either away, staying in a hotel, preparing for a game, or you're with the team and actually the way football's gone, you're in every Sunday now, you could be in all the time. There's very little family time. And actually it's one of the things I think people don't understand, "Hey, bad, it was a great job, really well paid game. Everybody wants to be involved in, as you're out to say." But it's incredibly time consuming, you know, and it takes up so much of your time. And if you have a family, probably they're the ones who suffer most because they don't see you as much as well. Probably other families might do a view work Monday, sort of 9-2-5. You go home with the weekends at least, you know, football manager, the weekends you're doing it. And actually I'm trying to get a membership, be a golf club at the moment, back in my home. I can't get in because they say, "Well, you've got to play away. You've got to play with members and you've got to play with friends." They get an I'm saying, "I've got no friends." In the business weekend, it's really hard to have lots of friends outside of our industry. The reason why is because of social time when focusing, "Hey, we're going out Friday night, we're going out Saturday night." You come up with this, "No, I'm in the hotel, we've got a game tomorrow, we can't do that." "Oh, you got Saturday night, yeah, but I lose." I'm not going up with them if I'm going to start the night. So lots of reasons why football managers are a great job, but it's also got lots of anti-social behavior things because of how the job works. Alia, you said that you haven't been historically so good, especially when you were younger at giving praise, like in Relates. One of the things that men are particularly bad at is letting, and I'm speaking about myself here, is letting their significant other know how much they appreciate them. I think women are usually better at that affection and saying the kind words and stuff. And as men, I know this for myself. I don't think my partner actually has a clue how much she means to me and how much she's been there for me in the hardest times. And just her presence sometimes, when she says nothing, in the hard moments, how that changes my state. If Pamela is watching this, what are the words you wish you could tell her that maybe you haven't told her? She would probably know that I love her, of course she would. I would hope she would. But more importantly, I miss her because I'm in London a lot of the time. She's up north. She's caring for her mum a lot at the moment. I just really, over the time, she's been great. We've had great times together. But I always want to say, I think my best times in football, hope I still to come. But hopefully, we're best times a couple are still to come as well. David, thank you. Thank you for lots of inspiration over the many, many years and lots of good memories in football. You've been an incredible manager, all the clubs you've been at in my view. And I do wish that Manchester United had given you more of a chance because I just generally believe everything you say about the importance of when you come into a new system or organisation, needing that time to understand and make it your own. So even as a Manchester United fan, I was always, I'm always really annoyed at how quickly we've moved on with our managers before giving them a chance because they're all objectively great managers and you certainly are as well. And it's just an honour to meet you because, you know, I've watched you on the screens for decades. So thank you. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest. And the question left for you is, what is the biggest public misconception about something that has happened in your life?

Closing Remarks

The last guest question (01:25:38)

After thinking about it, I think that there was, I felt there was a few untruths at the end of the lost majority of Manchester United actually. And I found it very difficult to correct them. I felt that, you know, they had been written, so it was very difficult to correct them. You know, which they weren't right. And from that point of view, I couldn't tell about it. And I found that actually probably one of the biggest difficulties because you try, you want to say, well, here, I'll explain why I made this decision. I'll explain why I chose to do that. But really, once the headline's there, that's the only thing with matters. You've got to get me one. Yeah, try thinking. I want that. That's what I think. I've got this one, but I don't know if I, I don't want to give the players name. That's fine. So, I mean, it was actually, so somewhat, they said that Manchester United had banned chips on a Friday Rio had said in his book that had banned chips. I read that. Yeah, I did. And it was actually something which probably most sports profession you wouldn't really have chips, but then in part of it. But understood Manchester United, Sir Alex, done a lot of things, maybe slightly different. And I totally respected that. And what happened is I remember it was one of my first games we were staying in the hotel and it was one player who was overweight, which I won't name. And I remember walking in and I was walking into the dining room and he had his dinner. And next time we had a side plate of chips. And that was my reason for, after that, seeing that one player with the side portion. So, that was my reason for saying there should be no chips on a Friday night. And it was sort of written about that that was one of the reason, but my reason was actually because one of the players who was actually at the time a bit overweight, a song with a side plate of chips and that's when I used it or banned them if you want to say that. Interesting. Thank you so much David for your time. No problem. Thank you so much. Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will make your virtual meeting experiences I think ten times better. As some of you may know, by now, BlueJeans by Verizon offers seamless high quality video conferencing. But the reason why I use BlueJeans versus other video conferencing tools is because of immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected to the employees or customers you're trying to engage with. And now they're launching one of their biggest feature enhancements to impact virtual events so far called BlueJeans Studio. I actually used it the other day. I did a virtual event using the studio, which I think about 700 of you came to. TV level production quality, all done by one person with very little technical experience on a laptop. So if you've got an event coming up and you're thinking about doing it virtually, check out BlueJeans Studio now. Let me know what you think because I genuinely believe, I know this is an advert and I'm supposed to say this, but I genuinely believe it's the best tool I've seen for doing really immersive, simple but high quality production virtual events.

Great! You’ve successfully signed up.

Welcome back! You've successfully signed in.

You've successfully subscribed to Wisdom In a Nutshell.

Success! Check your email for magic link to sign-in.

Success! Your billing info has been updated.

Your billing was not updated.