Eddie Hearn on Selling Matchroom For 5 Billion | E58 | Transcription
Transcription for the video titled "Eddie Hearn on Selling Matchroom For 5 Billion | E58".
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Oh my God, Eddie Hern, what a guy. There's very few people. No, I'm going to change that. I've never met someone as neurotically obsessed with success and with winning and with accomplishing things and with living a life in constant forward motion as my next guest, Eddie Hern. And it's remarkable because when you unpack the reasons for that obsession and that dedication to being more and achieving more, there's quite a fragile, vulnerable, insecure story. That's something I've noticed with a lot of my guests. And it often makes me think that the most successful amongst us aren't necessarily choosing to be. Some things happen to them that's left them with no choice. Eddie Hern is one of the most notorious sports promoters in the world. He's the king of boxing in this country. He is known for his no-context on Twitter page, which I'm sure a lot of you have seen. But what I wanted to do when I sat down with Eddie Hern was to get underneath, to get underneath the external sort of bragadocious, loud promoter side of him. And to find out, even in the case of someone like Eddie, who is loud, who is successful, who is ambitious, who is a promoter, are the same things true for him that are true for you. The insecurities, the vulnerabilities, the mental health issues. And how much does he really understand himself? My conversation with Eddie was incredibly enlightening. But it also wasn't that surprising. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett, and this is the Diaries CEO. I hope nobody is listening. But if you are, then please keep this to yourself. You've done a ton of interviews, especially over the last couple of weeks.
Personal Struggles And Success
What made you so relentless (01:54)
And there's this really consistent theme that I felt in all of the interviews I watched. I watched you at Cambridge, the high performance podcast, loads of them. And then before we started filming today, I had a chat with Frank. And he fully grasped on-- what he said to me, which was also consistent with these interviews, is that you are relentless. And he was telling me-- he's had some-- I probably shouldn't say this, but he was telling me-- I've started having this night-- night-nest. Night-nest. Night-nest. Because Eddie will text me in the middle of the night. And he went, I'll tell you one thing about Eddie. He is relentless. You're what, 40? 41. 41 years old. What's made you that relentless at 41 years old is the point where you're pastoring your colleagues at 3M in the morning. I don't know, really. I think when I did the book, it was quite a good sort of counseling session with myself. Because I wasn't really great at school. I wasn't particularly a hard worker at school. I loved the pound note, always. And when I wrote the book, it just-- I started writing about my childhood and what it was like growing up and how I was molded. And I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that I love to win. And I'm a-- Why did you love to win? I don't know, because with my dad, that's what we did. So when we played cricket, when we played football, when we played table tennis, when we sparred with each other, it was like, for me, growing up, you weren't-- I would come back from a match. Say I played cricket. And he would go to me. And actually, my mum was the same. And he would say to me, how many runs do you get today, son? And I would say, oh, no, four. Oh, useless. Come on. Next time, knocking a 50. It was never a well-known son. You took part. That's what really matters. That they taught me, taking part is completely and utterly irrelevant. You win. And ultimately, sport is how I was brought up. I was brought up on the foundations of sport, the lessons of sport, the winning, the losing, the highs, the lows. But always taught that winning was everything. So I'm a failed athlete. I think any kid growing up would love to be a sport. So I mean, I played cricket at a very good level. But I was never good enough at anything. So this is the next best thing. But I think if you're not trying to win in life and win winning, it means something different to everybody. Success means something different to everybody. Some people view success as being able to get their pay packet on a weekend, be able to spend time with their family and have enough food, make enough money to have food on the table and make sure everything's OK at home and be happy. And have a happy life with no stress or no drama. That's success to a lot of people. But people's interpretation of success is very different. And for me, I still don't know why I do this. But like you say, I love it. I guess that's where it comes down to a passion for what you do. And I don't know what the passion is. Is it passionate? I love the sport of boxing. Is it passionate? I want to succeed against and be bigger than my dad. I think that's a big part of it as well. Or is it just that I love to win? Or is it that I'm a bit sick in the head? Maybe all of them. The sick in the head point. I want to play with that idea a little bit. I wrote in my book, actually, we have the same publisher. I wrote in my book that the thing that invalidates you when you're younger becomes the thing you seek validation from when you're older. And what I meant by that is like, in my childhood, because we didn't have money, and I was this black kid in a school of 1500 white kids, everything that we didn't have became the things that I chased when I was older. Or the thing that made me feel somewhat invalid sometimes when I was a kid. Like you were saying about your dad saying, well, you lost today, became the thing that I would seek validation from as an adult. And I wondered if that resonated with you at all. I mean, like-- Well, a lot of different background. I mean, my dad was poor, became rich, and I was born. So I've said before, it's not like when you talk about generational wealth, we didn't have generational wealth. I had a dad who was from Dagnum, was from a cancerous day. His dad was a bus driver. And then I grew up in this sort of new-voe world where this bloke had made his money. And I'd take the mic out of him. I suppose he was a bit of a chav. He was like from Dagnum, and all of a sudden he got Ferraris and big cars. And we used to have a white limo and a black limo that would drive the snooker players around and the fighters around. And I was horrible. I was obnoxious. Imagine like a 14, 15-year-old kid hanging around with you, bank, and NAS. And then you're in the limo with your mates going up to London or to Rompford for a night out. I mean, I look back and just cringe. But mine was different. And I guess when it comes down to it, and again from the book and speaking, and speaking to people like Frank Lampard, he went to my school. He was in the year above me. At my school, I was Barry Hearnsen. And Frank Lampard was Frank Lampard's son. He's dad played for West Ham. And he said, "Different kind of drive if you can make it flow in the right way." And when you're talking about sort of mindset and hustle, where all of a sudden, I think so many people with successful parents end up just doing OK. But how do you go beyond that? How do you outperform everything that he done? And I feel like I've done that in many ways. But I will never be able to outperform the fact that he came from nothing. My friend is in a very similar position. If I said my friend's name, you'd know the guy. His dad is a multibillionaire. I know you know him because I've seen you with him for actually in New York. But his dad is a multibillionaire. And he grew up with living in the shadow. And his dad was the same. And I had a conversation with him. And he said, I was always trying to be better than my dad. He is now a billionaire himself of his own doing. But it's fascinating that-- and his dad sounds very similar to what your dad sounds, where his dad was tough on him. Tough on him in the-- I think they're tough on you because they don't want you to be that spoiled kid. I mean, you always want to spoil your kids. You want to give them the great. Even now, I've got two daughters. I love to spoil. I work hard so I can give them a great life. But I just want them to understand manners, respect, and discipline. These are the three most important things. And he would make sure that I would understand that. Even by having me working, giving me a clout every now and again, trying to keep-- because it must have been frustrating for him. Because I was probably all the things that he resented when he was growing up. The rich kid with parents, who had got big house and cars. And I would have hated me at school. But he would have looked at me. And that's why he was so disciplined with me. And I was in his slipstream growing up. So I would sit-- we're here now. That was my house over there. So he would get home from work if he was in the country. He would always go out and give me a game of football, cricket. And then he would go in the office all night on the phone. And I would have dinner. And I would just sit in the office. I might have a ball just throwing it up in the air. But I would subconsciously listen to the arguments and him losing his temper and just listen, not because I wanted to learn, just because I was there. And you're talking there about the sacrifice of his success, which is one of them, as you've highlighted is, less time with your family.
The sacrifices in-order to be successful (09:42)
You are relentless. Everybody says that. What is the cost of being a relentless person? You have to be incredibly selfish. You have to-- for me, family is the most important thing. But I have to be brutally honest and say, I don't let even family get in the way of things that I have to do. And that can make you an asshole. And it can make you sound terrible. But I just don't know any way around it. There is no way you can be the perfect husband or the perfect brother and run a successful business or be a, you know, a relentless operator. It's impossible because I know, because I try to balance both. But when you're flying back from America from a show and you land at 7 o'clock in the morning and then you go to Manchester for a press conference and then you come home and you just make it to pick them up from school and then you get back and they say, Dad, Dad, let's go over to park. And you're just absolutely on empty and your phone's going and you're trying to do another deal. And you're pushing the swing and you're getting like this, trying to send a message at the same time. It's impossible. You know, listen, I know because sometimes my eldest daughter is old enough to say, Dad, please get off the phone. And that's that killed me because that's bad to hear. I'm like, OK, OK. But then 30 seconds later on, back just have a look down because it's a lifestyle. And it's impossible to be great at anything without making sacrifices. It doesn't matter if you're a fighter, if you're a sportsman, you speak to old successful people. You can't be everything. It's impossible. And but what you don't want to do is you don't want to disregard your obligations, your family obligations because that are extremely important. But you also need a wife or a partner who's understanding enough to say, this is what I know what he's like. He won't stop. And that's why when Frank talks about 3am 4am, that's because a lot of the time, I'm sort of making up for the hour or two that I've lost out playing with the kids. So I'll put them to sleep. They'll go to sleep at 9.5, 9. Chill out with a wife for an hour. She'll go to sleep. And then I'm up. And now with the growth in America, it means that at 4pm, 5pm, the West Coast wakes up. So I can't go to bed. I can't disappear when it gets to 11am or on the West Coast or midday on the West Coast because I want to speak to men and we want to do business. I am much earlier in my career, maybe a 9-15 years earlier in my career. And I've struggled with romantic love. For the very same reason, that for the last decade, I've slept in the office multiple weekends. I've been obsessed. I would basically sacrifice everything. And then became this moment in my life where I think it was maybe the day that someone tried to buy the company. And I thought about what I'd spend it on. And I remember going home. And I swear on my mother's life, I went on the right move and also a trader at the same time. I had two tabs open. And I'm like, the Lamborghini in the middle of the store. - For the biggest itinerant. - No, no, no, no. But that always follows the Lamborghini. So I was looking at this Lamborghini and this mansion, the countryside. And then I thought, if I buy these things, I'm trading like this purpose I have, this job, this, you know, for this Lamborghini and this mansion. And it felt really, really empty. And then I thought that Steve, you know, when you were 18 and you were broke and you had no money, 18 year old Steve said, wrote in your diary. This is what it's called the Diaries here. That you wanted the sports car, the million before you were 25. This was what we did it for. And then it threw my head into this like confusion. It's like, if it's not that, if that's gonna make me feel empty, they call it like a gold medal depression when Michael Phelps won all the medals and then got depressed, then what's it all for? And then also when does it all end? Like when does it end? - Well, it doesn't end because actually you're always searching. This is a problem in something you have to be careful of because when you are trying to succeed when you're trying to become great actually, the great people, they never feel content with achievement. And I'm very much like that. Frank Lampard, again, going back to him, he said that when he won the Champions League, he's always dreamed of winning the Champions League and he stood there at a trophy and he felt nothing. I mean, he felt happy, but definitely not content, definitely not, I've cracked it. That might go back to the sickness, you know, that we talked about earlier. And when we talk about sickness, I mean, probably not medically sick, but sick in the head a little bit to a point where I get it all the time. You know, we say that, you know, we wanted to do, you know, when AJ Turnpro, we wanted him to be the World Heavyweight Champion, you know, he won that. Great, we was entering after jumping up and down. As soon as we got out the ring, the, yeah, and then it's like, okay, we want to do something out. You know, we got the Klitschko fight. Okay, you go through it 90,000 at Wembley, you stand there, everyone that was at the event tells you it's a great sporting occasion they've ever been to. How do you know? Uh, at the time, amazing. In the ring, amazing. Very often. You know, and then not even the day after. It's, I never, I never go out really, and I never drink really after a show, because that's probably, you know, depressed is the wrong word, but you, I go back, you know, I finished the media obligations two, three o'clock in the morning, go back to the hotel, and that is when I'll sit there and get into bed, and then obviously you can't sleep because the buzz and the adrenaline, and that's when you just feel a little bit low and empty is that, okay, it's over. Same with what you talk about with Phelps, it's the hires versus the lows. You can't just experience the hires and then be happy with the lows. So you want more and more and more and more. And I, I'm my, I'm my own biggest critic and I'm also very pessimistic, which is strange to a lot of people, but I kind of use it to play tricks on myself, to keep myself driven. So when I do something or when I plan something, I always say to myself, there's gonna be problems. I think it's gonna go wrong. I doubt this will happen. You know, I don't know why I do it, but it just helps me to battle away, to overcome everything, to get to the place. And then when I achieve something, which others might think is great, I say to myself, that's nothing. You got a long way to go, because I'm scared of sitting back, you know, with the cigar on the beach and going, I'll crack it, you can't touch me. You know, and we got to a position where you can box in where, you know, we are virtually untouchable, but I just don't wanna be that guy who takes the foot off the gas, I want to bang every single nail in the coffin, you know, and then move on to another market and another market and another market. But you do get the worry with that mindset is, you may look back when you're 80 or 90 and go, wow, you know, look at everything you've done. You never really enjoyed it, did you? I mean, I love what I do, but you probably should savor it a little bit more than you do, but again, it goes back to that mindset of being so driven, you want the next drug, success is a drug, but you've got to be careful that it doesn't turn you into an asshole at the same time, because how many successful people do you know? Absolutely. - Oursals, oursals, horrible, rude, no manners, obnoxious. - What's it done, do you ever find moments where you think, fuck, I was just an asshole then? - I think that it's just time for people, you know, you end up being, it's not that you can turn into that, if you're not one, but, when you become business, a bit like, you know, when people say that, oh, he's changed, of course he's changed, his life's changed, you know, his responsibilities change, his business has changed, you can't expect him to say the same people, and, you know, when you have a group of friends, when you all come out of school and sort of you go from there and you're talking every day, and the ones that sort of grow, the friendships are still as strong, but you just don't talk to each other every week, every day, because you've got your own life, you've got your own vision, you've got your own plans, but you still go for lunch and you get on better than ever and you're meant, and it's the ones that say, oh, he's not, no, he's down to us anymore, I ain't got time mate, but this just goes back to the sacrifices, you know, if I fall out with friends, because of what I'm trying to achieve in my own personal life, I'm a business, so be it, I know again that that sounds, you know, and it's not about being a bad friend or a bad person, but you can't worry about other people, as long as you're a good person, you don't just do the right thing, the fact that you don't have time at the moment, but that's when you people might perceive you to be an asshole, you know. - You talked a little bit about that being 80 years old and looking back on your life, I'm gonna just play a little game with you, so we're gonna imagine, imagine that, what day of the week was, I think it was Tuesday today, Tuesday?
Deathbed thinking (18:17)
So Friday, you find out that Friday's your last day on Earth, my question is, and really put yourself there, right? So Friday's your last day on Earth, all the fights coming up, AJ, Furios, all falls away. What do you immediately regret? - That's actually something that I've thought about quite a lot, and the reason was is about four months ago, my granddad passed away, it was 93, great life, you know. And when I went to see him in his last couple of days, you know, and he obviously didn't look great, and I looked at him, I thought, wow, life's crazy, isn't it? I said, everything that you've done in your life, and now you're laying here about to leave. So when you get experiences like that, just you have to be reminded sometimes that this is a game, life is a game, we're only on borrowed time, right? And you can never take yourself too seriously, I think that's one thing I do well is I love to have a laugh and I don't take myself too seriously. In answer to your question, since that moment, I've been thinking a lot about, if I went now, do you look back and say, I couldn't have done any more, I had a great time. And I think the answer is yes, and we can all do better. But my dad is an inspiration at respect, because he's the kind of person that couldn't have squeezed one more drop out of his life, right? So I'm quite envious of that, he's 73, and who knows how long he's gonna last? But I do feel like it's very important that when you get to whatever stage when God says, that's enough for you, that you are able to look back and say, I couldn't have done any more. And that scares me a little bit because- - I wanna know exactly what, when you think about more, you're saying I could have done more, you find out that this Friday's your last day, what are the things where you think, do you know what? Because I think that moment, like the deathbed moment, puts everything in perspective. - It does, but I think in that moment, your emotions are very different to when you're well and fit and on the hustle and just, you know, so you don't get a chance to reflect on that kind of moment until you're there. And the obvious reflection at that point is, I wish I would have spent more time with my family. You know, I wish I would have been less focused, probably, on work. But I'm not a believer in, you know, the thoughts then are not the thoughts now, and you have to act on the moment. You can't live your life saying, what a blind mean when I'm on my deathbed, you might look back in because I don't think you can plan like that. You have to do what's in your heart, you have to do what feels right. And what feels right for me right now is this. - Sure. - What might feel right then is, ah, do you know what? Should have probably missed a few trips really and just done the school run a little bit more. And I know that, you know, you have to, you really have to understand where you are in life. This is great for your mental health as well, and your sanity. You've got to be honest with yourself, and you've got to understand the situation. I know exactly where I'm at, what I'm thinking, what I'm doing, the sacrifice I'm making, what I could do better at, what I, you know, but I'm okay with it. You know, you can't get the perfect balance, but as long as you understand what is going on, and you're not deluded, you're not stubborn, ah, damn it, I'm not that, yeah. I know, I know I need to do more at home. I know I need to do more school runs. I know I need to be less short with the wife sometimes. - But can you, there's a couple of points here that I think are super interesting. So that death bed moment, what I think it's doing, and I've never been there, you've not been there, but what I think it's doing is it's telling you what actually mattered, because to some degree, I think that it's like, with that hindsight, you can say, fuck, that person criticizing my hair, or my cut, or this, none of that fucking ever mattered. All of that was trivial. All the things that mattered were, as you say, like, my niece, or my, you know, so I think that's what that moment's doing. - But that comes over time, how old are you now? - 27, how old are you now? - Okay, you're a baby, right? When I was 27, what people thought of me really mattered. You know, I mean, listen, I've been working out for 35 years just to stay fat, you know, like the barn it's going a little bit. I could not give a monkey's now. At your age, oh wait, I was, you know, I might have been Jack the lad, I might have been turning out that, but deep down, you know, I'd only take one of the boys to say, you know, tell you what, it's your putting on a bit of timber, or look, look, your barn is creeping back. What, what do you mean? What do you mean? Now, I'll go, yeah, mate, I know, listen, sign of the times, isn't it? So being comfortable with yourself is the best feeling in life. You know, is the best feeling in life. And I think when I was growing up at school, I wasn't subconsciously. I think I had a massive chip on my shoulder, and that's why I was a bit of a bit of a knob to be quite honest. But when you get comfortable with yourself, it's a beautiful thing in life, it really is. You know, when you wake up in the morning, and you've always got to try it for me, and look good, and feel good, and be the best version of yourself you can be, but you do get to a stage, and that's actually when you become really powerful and effective. You know, it's the same kind of thing. You know, when you're young, and you're quilting, or you're looking for a young lady to show you some interest, you know, when you try really hard, and you're sort of on edge, and you're a bit hot, don't really like my hair, or, oh God, you know, you know, the ones that walk into the bar, and just go, oh my, you know, I know I'm not the best, but you know, they're the ones that everybody gravitates to. Anyone with a smile on their face is always creates so much more energy, and flowed, and the people that don't. And that's about being comfortable in yourself. So I think that it's very difficult, with everything you've achieved at your age, to just know where you're going, or what you're doing, I'm done. Do you know what I mean? I'm married, I've got two kids, I've got biz, I'm struggling to balance everything, you know, but I'm here, you know, I'm not gonna roll back the years, and do this, and do that, and I know exactly what I'm doing, I know exactly where I'm at, I know exactly what I'm focusing on, and that life starts to become a lot easier then, at your age, you know, I went to work, I left college after my levels, I went to work for five years in sports management companies, in event management companies, I was a sports agent on a PGA Tour in America, I had no idea where I was going, I mean, I just wanted to be successful, I wanted to earn money, you know, but the mindset of, or the changing mindset over the years is unbelievable, I always say to people, you know, what matters to you now, you will look back on when you get to my age and go, can't believe I even used to worry about stuff like that, and that's important because I feel like people that are very successful, you know, you did it at a very young age, very impressive, because I think it takes time, now when I did the Cambridge talk the other day, you know, you're sitting down with all these young, I mean, I'm street smart and I can sell, right? These people are like, yeah, but I'm jealous of boffins, I used to take the Mickey-A-Boffins, I'm jealous of boffins now, I find intellectual people fascinated, I love talking to them, and just trying to learn and absorb, and I'm sitting in this room of people, and they're listening to me and I'm thinking, you know, firstly, you must be listening to me thinking, this is a car, use car dealer, something like that, and then, but I'm talking around, I'm saying to you, what do you wanna do? Well, you know, what is success to you? They've not got clue, and it's not because they're Oxford and they're deluded, it's because that's just, it's very difficult at that age to understand, I don't believe anyone at full tea looks back at what they were thinking at 20 and said, yeah, I have this plan, I'm there now, and this is what I always wanted to do. So it takes time to develop a passion for something, and that is the piece of key word passion, because when we talk about being relentless, and we talk about this work ethic, you can only have it if you love what you do, and if you have a passion for what you do, I don't think you can trick yourself. You can, but you can't be as good, you know?
Is ambition choice? (26:21)
- You said earlier that you feel like, you're self-aware of like the lack of balance in your life, because you've got this real relentless streak, you've got this family, and you're self-aware of it. Do you think, as much as you're aware of it, do you think deep inside you, you really have a choice? Or do you think you're being somewhat dragged by your own ambition? Because this is what I find fascinating about successful people, is it tends to be the case that like me, I'm aware I need to see my needs more, but I just sometimes don't feel like I'm fully in control. - I'm a good girl. - Well, I do it because it's what I want to do, ultimately. I mean, I do have an obligation. You know, I do have responsibilities. I'm talking about in the workplace, you know, we've got a fantastic team here, but ultimately, when we're announcing a show, when we're doing a press conference, when we do it, they want me, they want their flesh. So they roll me out, and I'm just like, I'm like a traveling salesman, right, Eddie, when announcing the show today, off you go. Right, here we go, I've got a back in the car, here we go, you know what, so, but I do it because I enjoy it, because I love it, because I have an obligation to do it for the business that my father created, and of my responsibility now, is to take that to the next level. You know, he built this from the foundations from nothing. I'm not going to let it just fizz it out as he goes into his 80s. I want to take it to the next level. But the difference is, is I don't have to do this. You know, I'm not looking at this, it's my way out, you know, if I just make some money, I can buy the Lamborghini, or I could have done that at 21. But imagine the Eddie that doesn't do this, I might have wanted to have you. But the same thing, that was me at school. You know, that was the kid telling the teachers, I don't have to do that, you know, I'm like, I'm like, ugh, can't, that runs shivers down me. Give me some advice on them, 'cause you've got, you're married, and I genuinely-- We want dating advice.
Finding the work life balance for a relationship (28:27)
Genuinely, it sounds crazy, but I'm like, you've managed to crack, it seems like, 'cause you're married, crack the balance of being relentless on one end, but then managing to find a person, or to at least keep them happy to some degree. I'm not supposed to get them, I'm not supposed to. But I genuinely, I started to think of the last couple of years, I'm like, how am I gonna find someone that understands that I want to send text messages at 4am in the morning, and that I sometimes don't want to talk to them, and that when I'm sat next to them, I'll be quiet for seven hours, because I've just got an email that I'm thinking about. And so I'm like, is it, you have to find the right person? Is it something you say to them? I think they need to know you, they need to know what drives you. I mean, if you had a conversation with my wife, and you said, what is he like? You know, she'd just go, well, he's just in his own world, isn't he? I mean, the amount of times, you know, that moment where you get home, and they go, right, I need to talk to you, and you go into the kitchen, and they go, right, now, Isabella, you know, I spoke to her teachers today, and what, I'm gone, right, so I'm going, and I'm thinking that contract's got to be in at 9pm, you know, blah, blah, blah, and she goes to me, what did I say? And I go, this is cool, what? And she goes, but it's not like, and she'll go, listen, we have blazing rounds. You know, you're so selfish, you all you care about is work, you know, but again, it just gets to a point where you just have to understand life, you just, nothing's perfect, you know, you've got two people that love each other, I've known her since, you know, my 20s. I've changed, we've both changed a lot over the years, but we've changed together, and we've grown together, and this is what I do, you know, and I would have had that conversation with her at some point many years ago, to the point saying that nothing's going to get in my way, and I don't mean to sound horrible, and I love you, and, you know, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, but you have to understand me, you have to understand that this is extremely important to me. Don't say this is the most important thing to me, because that'll get you bang in trouble, but, you know, this is extremely important to me, and I think because she's been around my family, because she knows how important it is to us, she kind of just gets it, you know, and there'll be times where she'll say, "Did I hear you on the phone last night, at five o'clock in the morning?" I say, "Yeah, you know, we was doing a Canelo deal, or, you know, AJ deal, or..." She'll just look at me and go, but over time, you know, I think the most difficult thing is the early stages of dating, because it's very difficult for a woman, that they want your attention, you know, people sometimes think that women want, you know, money and, you know, a nice house, and of course everybody does, but they don't really, they want your attention, and they want your company, and they want your time. And there are three things that are very difficult to do, when you live that kind of lifestyle. So you do have to, you know, we'll do it. I'll race back from somewhere, and I'll say, "Right, you know, tonight, let's get out for dinner." And I'll be naked, I don't, you know, hopefully she don't listen to this. I really don't want to go for dinner tonight, but you have to do it. And that's what my dad has kind of always taught me. "Son, you've got to do, you've got to respect my big family people." My mum, is it from the East End? She's old school. As far as they're concerned, the man goes out and puts the bread on the table, and the wife looks after the man. Old, old, old world. That don't exist anymore. But every morning, or every night, my mum will, I'm on that a shirt, and she will put it on the door for him in the morning. - If you're wife, right, say we put her in this room, we sat her down with God, and he said, "Listen, you can decide what happens next with Eddie in his career." Right, so we can bring it to an end, and he'll spend more time with you. What do you reckon she would do? She could make the decision on your relentlessness in your career. How do you honestly think she would make that decision? - I think she, because she knows how important it is to me, I think she would say, no, he needs to do it, he has to do it. But I think the hope is that there isn't end place or an end goal for me. - For the moment you feel. - Yeah, but for me, I don't, whether in 20 years time we play this back, I don't think I want to be 70, maybe even 60, 70, 80, doing this, dealing with problems, and listen, maybe I won't even make it that long, but for me, I definitely have the mindset of, not I want to get in and get out, but I do want to get that moment where I do sit on the beach with a cigar, I don't even smoke cigars, but in a whiskey, I don't even like whiskey, but I can imagine the picture at least, and go, do you know what? We've done it, we've done well. But walking away is the thing that a moment would kill me, to be able to imagine when you wrap up shop, and this might be, I mean, for us, we've gone from being a family business to having four employees, to now all of a sudden having hundreds of employees in multiple offices around the world, we're being approached by, for investment, for takeover, for IPOs, and now we're sort of at that stage of growth where, I don't know, I just see, I see a faster exit strategy than my dad, at least that's what I'm selling to her. You know, just give me a few more years, just give me a few more years, but I do want to go and enjoy, because I can't say I'm not enjoying myself, 'cause I love what I do, but I do want that moment to just, you know, but it's the walking away. You know, how do you just one day turn around, and you might sell the business, or, you know, you might flow, and you take a more of a backseat roll. That's difficult, because we make our own decisions, we're a hands on business, that's what we love. We've turned down investment and opportunities for years, because we don't want to, I don't want to ball the directors, we make the decisions, and we do what we want to do, because we love what we do. But when you see such growth, and you see such interest, and you see the opportunity for, you know, a much vaster wealth, being quite honest, do you want it? And if you want it, what's the exit strategy? Because at the moment, the exit strategy for our families, from the day you start working, from the day you die, you work your nuts off every single day. I mean, it's not particularly advanced, is it? That strategy, but that's just what we've always done. - Mental health, big topic, you know, especially over the last 10 years, I think if you go back, well, 10 years ago, and you said the word mental health, people think people are crazy, right? They think like, you know, run away from that person, but now it's become like, the opposite, like, oh, someone's got, you know, it's become something of where you give someone affection, and you take care of them, because the stigma's somewhat changed. We know the stats around mental health. Have you ever suffered from any sort of mental health predicaments? This is my favorite day of the week. My all-time favorite flavor of fuel. - Very. I went up to Huill's office in Tring last week, and had another tour around their headquarters, and so it'd be pretty amazing. They have this massive, massive gym, as you would expect. But the thing that I didn't realize about Huill, was that it's also a vegan product, and also I didn't realize their commitments to sustainability. Now, there's tons of reasons why you might choose to become a Huilligan like me. I've been drinking Huill for about three years, long before they decided to help me with the podcast and to sponsor us, but I never realized the element of it. The reason I've always consumed fuel is because of convenience, right? Some people might consume it because it's nutritionally complete, which I guess is part of the reason I did as well. And then some people might consume it because it's affordable, but for me, I never, because I'm not a vegan, I never realized that it was vegan. I never realized their efforts around sustainability, and I never realized it was also gluten free, because again, that's not a problem I have. And so on this week's episode of the podcast, that's the key message that I wanted to get across, is that if you are vegan, a lot of people don't know this, a lot of my friends didn't know this, Huill is vegan too. And this is my all-time favorite flavor, which is berry. For me, it tastes great. 20 grams of protein, I'm currently trying to get in better shape, as I hope some of you have been able to notice if you've seen the podcast on YouTube, if you're listening on YouTube right now. Yeah, and I love it. And this is why it's so awesome to work with a brand that you believe in, because their impact on the environment is low, they are good for you, nutritionally, it's super convenient, and if you have the berry one, it tastes unbelievable. So what a win, win, win, win, win for me, it was working with Huill, because I get to tell you guys about something that I would swear by, and I don't have to be dishonest with you. If you look at my fridge right now, maybe you should take a look in it, it's pretty much all Huill. I'm not advocating to have a Huill-only diet, but that kind of speaks to the nature of my life and how busy I am, and how many meals I was missing before I became a Huill again. Have you ever suffered for many sort of mental health predicaments?
Your experience with mental health (37:45)
I don't think so, no. I mean, I think, again, depression's one of those things, a bit like yoga and breathing and stuff we were talking about earlier. If you would have said to me 10 years ago, listen, maybe even five or six years ago, so and so suffering from depression, if your perception of that person is, well, he's young, he's good looking, he's healthy, he's rich, he's successful, how can he be struggling from depression? What a load of rubbish. And actually, it takes the older generation even longer. I mean, I think my dad's only just accepted now that it exists with people, because he's mental health is, what? Dust yourself down, what's the matter with you? And that's wrong, because it is real, and it does exist. I don't have, I had days where I've been feeling incredibly down, yeah, but surely that's normal. I don't see myself suffering from that. And I think mental health problems and depression, I think it comes from overthinking. My brother-in-law is hilarious, he just, I've never known anyone who just over thinks and worries about stuff, you know, you're gonna be able to conversation, you'll go, I've just been thinking about that, you know? And if that happens, I was thinking, you know, next year, you could be there and then from there, he's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? Just when you're struggling mentally, focus on the short term, focus on day by day. I think sometimes people look at, and this is the same for business, when you have project or a long-term plan, there are so many short-term obstacles and goals to overcome, to get there. That's why many times you spoke to them, I've got this idea, you know, I'm gonna be doing this and that and blah, blah, and then a month later, you've not even heard about it. Oh, well, what happened was, we launched and then, you know, the council came in, all the regulation board came in, and this other company tried to do this and that, and it just, it's like, no, because you didn't focus on the short-term goals. All you were worried about was the house and the Lamborghini, and you weren't prepared to tick the boxes to get there. So sometimes when I'm a little bit off or, you know, it might be traveling a lot and the equilibrium's gone and it's like, okay, so I'm just gonna write down what I'm gonna do today. And it can be really meanie or stuff, could be walk the dog, you know, could be finalised of contract, could be go to the gym, could be go and get some food, you know, from, and then, - Just to say, just to say, and I would tick everyone off. - Really? - Yeah, and I would say, at the end of the day, I would look at it and I would go, done. And that's the momentum back. That's where you get the feeling of accomplishment, even on tiny things, say, okay, I'm moving in the right direction. For me, that is a big help for me. It's short-term focus. Because once you start worrying about what's gonna happen next week or next month or next year. - You got control. - No, and you're gonna start driving yourself crazy. You've just gotta say, okay, this is what I need to do today. And tomorrow, I need to do the same thing. And then before you know it, you'll start making positive changes. You'll start achieving, because you know what you've set, the targets you've set yourself, you are achieving. - You're a bit of a philosopher. I don't know if you realize, because there's a great famous philosopher that says depression is too much of the past and anxiety is too much thinking too much about the future. And he says, the cure is more now. And that's pretty much what you've described. - Yeah, that is true. Because you can't worry about things that may or may not happen. And you can't change things that have already happened. What you can do is change what is happening today. And it's simple to do that. Again, in a book, I ran a marathon, one marathon, right? Because my dad ran loads and he took the mic out. I mean, I like to do it. And it's the same kind of thing. You start the marathon, you think 26 miles. If you start thinking about running 26 miles, I mean, it did give me anxiety attacks to start with. I was thinking, that's just ridiculous. I've never done more than 10K. And then you train and you train and you train and you build. And then every mile marker is an obstacle. You start off, you think 26 miles by me, and you go one, two, three, four, five, and you're okay. And then you're 12, 13, you think, I've done half. And then you get to 18, 19, you think, I can't do it anymore. And you think, just get to 20, get to 2021. And when you see that 20 mile marker, you know, and then you get to 20 and you go, do you know what? I've still got six miles, I can't do it. And you go 21, 22, 23. And then when it's all over, you can look back. But if you start worrying about the future, you're going to get out, you're not going to make it. - Do you feel the anxiety sometimes in those big moments where you've got, you know, something's coming up and you just can't stop thinking about it? In my business, it was actually the first, you know, I heard this term, mental health. And I think at the start, I thought, no, it's not real. And then a couple of years in, a lot of people started hearing, you know, friends and mine and stuff, going through really bad things. I'm like, I think it's real. And then I got to this point where I was always scared to admit that it would be real. Because I almost felt like, if I admitted it was real, then I'm like welcoming the possibility into myself of like labeling myself something. And then there was one moment where I had this really big decision to make in New York. And I'm laying in the Hot Tub and Manchester and I just got really anxious. And I was anxious for about four days up until the point of the decision. And then I thought that's probably the closest I've come to some kind of mental health predicament. Is that real anxious feeling that I couldn't shake?
Social media (43:09)
- I think social media is horrendous as well. Like, I've made the decision in the last couple of years, year specifically, to start ignoring and blocking out a lot of - You're a celebrity now. - Yeah, well, but when I was coming through, when I was overturning the system, the support was unreal. And I was really feeding off that. I mean, anyone that says, you know, they're not affected by criticism or they're not worried about, I mean, that's a load of rubbish. Of course, you don't like people criticizing you. And by the way, you love people, patting you on the back and championing you. Of course, it's natural. - What things get to you though? - Stuff that people, like the personal stuff couldn't give a monkey's about. It's more about the, it's more about people when you're putting the work in something and you're so passionate about something and you're actually working for the good of, might be the sport or whatever. It's the people that just, you know, present to you completely differently. So that's the frustration. But over the last couple of years, I just started thinking to myself, what are you, I was having a conversation about, "Man, my old man's on Twitter." Right, and he phoned me up, and he'd go, "I'm having an argument with this geyser on Twitter." And he was going on about the snooker in the format. And I said to him, I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." I said, "Are you serious?" I said, "Who is, what is this boat?" "I said, "Do you imagine someone stopping you on the street "and having a pop at you about the snooker format?" But it also, it's the platform that made us what we are. It got us to the top, you know, the interaction with the fans and the understanding of their mindset. So we can't just, you know, but it's become a toxic place. It really has, you know, and I worry for, "I worry for my kids." You know, sometimes one of them be on TikTok and she'll put a dance out and someone will come back and say, "You know, I don't know, you're ugly. "You look really, you're stupid." And it's like, we never had that in our day and we never even had a phone. You know, someone didn't like you, they might say something in the playground, but that's about it. So we live in a world of criticism and I think it's a negativity. But that's what I said to my old man. I said, "Do you imagine like these people, "they were doing it all day. "I'll put a post out." Same ones all the time. How did that think? You know, and even to the point where someone posted my phone number on Twitter, right? And I've had my phone number for 25 years. Same one, right? And someone posted it and went, "Give it, this is Eddie Hern's number. "Give him a call and, you know, "tell him what you think about the pay per view price "or whatever it is." And my phone was getting minted. Like it was like every, literally all day, it was just private number, private number. And I thought, "You know what? "You've got to change your number." And I thought, "I can't be bothered." So I started answering a few, right? And to this day, this was a few years ago, it stayed, people still do it. And there's this one guy. - You've got the same number? - Yeah, I can't be bothered to change it, right? So this guy, it's a private number, private number, private number. And it's all day, right? So I pick it up and I go, "Allo mate." And he goes, "Oh, bloody hell, Eddie." And I go, "Yeah, how you doing, mate?" And he goes, "Umm, when you're going to stop ripping us off "on the pay per view, does what I like?" Right? And I go, and I went to him, "Mate, "let's have a serious conversation. "What are you doing?" And he goes, "What do you mean? "What am I?" I said, "Have you got a job?" And he's like, "Yeah, I said you have an heavier." And he's like, "Well, not the more, mate." I said, "What are you doing?" I said, "How many times have you phoned me today?" "Oh, I mean, the answer was like 40." Right? I said, "You've got to focus." I said, "All the energy you're putting into phoning me "because you think it's banter "or it's some kind of accomplishment "if I pick up the phone." I said, "Put it into something worthwhile." I said, "Because you really waste in your life." And he just went quiet and he's like, "Uh, come on, no, Eddie. "What about a few quid off the pay per view?" And I'm like, "No, no, mate, I'm serious. "But I want to help you out. "You've got to change." And then he just hung up. And I thought, "Shit, okay, right, my left address is--" But it's true, isn't it? "What are you doing?" "What are you doing?" I mean, all right, once might be quite funny and I'll pick it up and you give me a bit. But like, all day, every day, you know, because I'd hate to be one of those people that just wakes up every morning with no far in the belly, with no passion, with nothing. And there are, by the way, that's 95% of the population. Many people, it's why it's so important to me here to create an environment, a matron for the team. Where you enjoy being there, you know, we get food together, we got a gym, we got a pool, we got, we're all traveling away to events, we'll have a night out, we'll do that, because you can't be in a job or a life where you just flat, how am I going to get the best out of you if you don't love what you do? And it's very difficult to have that same passion when it's not your business, you know? So, motivation's important, but.
I don't like being a celebrity (48:19)
- Frank said to me, he said, you know, Eddie's a business man, that's where you came from. Your dad's a business man too. And with this new age of social media and all the interviews you do on YouTube and you are relentless with the interviews as well, by the way. Like, when I was, when I was saw you in New York on that rooftop with like the nice barre d'est stuff, yeah. You were back to back to back doing those interviews with all these bloggers for three hours. That's helped grow the business. It's why most people know Matt Trume of this, especially of this generation. But it's made you a celebrity. And Frank said to me, he said, I don't think he's enjoying the celebrity thing, you know? And I think a lot of people would be really, really surprised to hear that because, you know, people would, they think that you'd love it. They think you love the attention. I mean, promoters are in the business of attention, right? But from a personal perspective, apparently you don't like it. You don't like the celebrity. - I then set out to be a celebrity. And I set out to be a businessman. I set out to continue the success that my dad built. But I do recognize that if I am well known, if I am a showman, if I am a celebrity, it will help me push my events. It will help me push the profile of fighters. You know, you get to a stage now where the industry haters might say, oh well, it's ridiculous. He's doing all these interviews. You know, he's more popular than most of his fighters. You know, more popular is the wrong word, well known than some of his fighters. But that's me. And I look at the success of the UFC. I look at the growth of that business in Dana White. And every major fight sport product has that lead guy in WWE, it's Vince McMahon. You know, in MMA, it's Dana White. And in boxing, I guess it's me or, you know, I want it to be me. So there's a method to the madness. And but, you know, the book, the book was something that I wanted to do because I just thought it was funny that I would ever write a book, right? - I think it's funny. - No, but if you knew me at school and you knew, I just, it was more like, harder put it to me during, before lockdown. And when lockdown come, I panicked. And I was like, oh, and next, you know, talk about being at home with your kids. Now I am at home with my kids and I've got no events. And, oh, so I was just like, for those first two weeks, I was just right. We launched a fitness show with Skye that people could do at home, fight and fit. You know, I was said to the guys, yeah, get me that book deal. I'll write it now. Let's do the book now. And I wrote it in lockdown, you know, and, and I was just zooms, more zooms, more interviews because I was just, I was just scared of not having that drive every single day of, you know, going out there and, and, and, - And I did enjoy it. - It's something like an illness, yeah. - Well, yeah, it is an illness. It is an illness. That's real sick, aren't we? I mean, like, you can't do, you can't wake up in the night, every night, and start writing emails, doing contracts, texting people, and then wake up at seven and do the school run and then drive to work and do it all over again every single day, unless you're a little bit ill in the head. - You can't actually be still. Like, so when you talk to her about that cigar moment in the future, sitting on that beach, I didn't believe you for a second. - Yeah, you're probably right. But I'd just, I'd like to think that, so at least what I'm telling the miss is that one day will be, will chill out, you know what I mean. - Could you imagine laying on a beach for the cigar like this? No emails, no nothing, just no fights coming up, nothing, just. - Meditating. No, but I think it all depends where you get to, you know, it's like when you're building your stack at poker, you know, the problem with gambling is you never know when to walk away, right? And we're not gambling anymore because we're very good at what we do, but life is always a gamble. So when you build your stack, it's that moment when you say to the cashier, can I get a rack please? And you put it in your rack and you go up to the cashiers desk and you say cash that in for me and I go. - So, and you walk away and you go, yeah, and then you get sit there and you get a nice beer, you go. - But that moment sucks. You said the moment, the moment, that moment doesn't suck, but then after, again, it's the thrill, isn't it? I like to win, I like to people. So the thing that would hurt me more is if I turn around tomorrow and win, I couldn't have done any more unboxing. I am, buy. What would hurt me more is sitting on the beach, not, you know, enjoy myself going, now I'm gone. All those people that I was fighting again for all those years to become number one, they've got no, they're back, you know, they're back. And that's what, my dad walked away from boxing because it is the most aggravating business and intense business. And that's what I'm saying about all throughout the night because everyone's trying to fuck you, non-stop. Right? So you have to sleep when I open. And I think he got to a stage where he went, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm going to go and do darts where everyone's going to love me. Do you know what I mean? And I'm jealous of you, look at that, because I saw growing up, this guy that was so intense and who had a bad temper and, you know, and then all of a sudden, once boxing went, he was just chilled out, wow, I can't believe what's happened to my life. So, you know, I hate to let people win. And if I left, ultimately they would win. But I guess the only time you can walk away is when you're content. And will the contentman ever come at the moment, like you say, possibly not. But who knows, you know, who knows where we can build to, where we can get to, where it might be that moment. And again, you have to always leave the option open because as I said, your thoughts at 20, are totally different to your thoughts at 30 and 40 and 50. I may get to 50 and we may be, you know, I've had another great 10 years and I might go, fire's not there anymore. I'm done, or I might be saying, right, now I wanna take over the music, now I wanna take over football, now I wanna, you know, so it's difficult to say. - And with the family businesses, they're a very special thing.
Selling Matchroom (54:10)
And in the world we live in today, with these big global corporations and the public market's growing, it's very rare for a family business to withstand the temptation of acquisitions or going public or whatever. - What, you don't have a son, right? And I'm wondering who continues the family business if you were to go down that route, is it? - No, well that's a good point because that is, the conversation, you know, ever since I started to understand business more, for me, that is a natural progression of a family business to go family business, you know, investment or acquisition or IPO. And that's what you do, because how do you, I have aspirations for this business to grow globally and to be staging events in every major territory in the world, you know, to do that does require huge investment, does require, you know, management, and we can do it, but that's not our speciality, our speciality is creating great live events for our broadcasters and fans, okay? So my dad has always said to me, I will never, ever, ever take investment for the business, float the business or sell the business. And I've always, over the years gone, "Hippet, you know, we've got to get to it." And actually, the son thing's quite interesting, you know, I've been blessed with two amazing daughters, 'cause every man with quite a lot of sons didn't work out, that's what God gave me. But there is, it's an interesting point because my end goal, if I had a son, and listen, only 41, who knows, but I think it would be more, you know, here we go again, down the line kind of thing. With me, I would quite like to end the journey with my dad, do you know what I mean? To say, look at what we, you know, not it's gone, but look at where we started, look at where we finished, because it's very difficult. And I take the interest from, you know, hedge funds and, you know, investment funds, with unbelievable amount of compliment to say, "Wow, you know, and the calls are coming in nonstop because they appreciate the model of growth where when we talk about one sport, one promoter, one belt, you know, that mindset, it's a carbon copy of the UFC. Now, the UFC sold 4.6 billion. There is no reason why boxing with so much more history, with so much more credibility with fans and broadcasters, can't replicate that model and actually be even more valuable than the UFC business. And I'm really the only chance it has to do it. It's not gonna be Bob Harham, he's not gonna be Don King, he's not gonna be Frank Warren, he's gonna be me. So all of a sudden, I've been giving interviews like that, and then the calls are coming, "Wow, right, we want, you know, and it's like, guys, we don't need it. We're not, if I wanted to go and get funding, if I wanted to go and flow, I'll do it tomorrow." But it's a big, you know, head-button system with me and my dad. And, you know, he's starting to look at, and I'm just saying, we can't just be blind to it. It's a natural progression for any business in terms of growth to look at these models. - But is that why you're doing the business? Because, you know, it's bit, the happiness you've got from this business, I would guess, and I ran a public business until recently, much of it has-- - Aggravation. - Ah, loads of bullshit you don't necessarily want, right? Quarterly reporting. - Of course. - You gotta hit the numbers if you don't, then you gotta do something short-term that's not necessarily in the long-term interest of the business, right? So, I'm almost quite jealous of the set you have, the control you have, you have it in your family, and you're happy. But you're someone that almost needs forward momentum to continue to be happy. - It's growth, isn't it? You know that as a family business, you can see in our financial results, we're fantastic. We're a huge family business in terms of the numbers that we deliver in year on year end. - Yes, yes. - But at the same time, you're almost capped by the growth and by the numbers within the currents, within that setup. - Yeah. - You know, okay. So when you start, you turn a break-even business into a five million, a bit dark company, and then before you know it, the aim is 10 and 15, and now with 30, and you know, but how'd you get to four billion? - Why does four billion matter? - That's just the UFC number. - Yeah. - You know, so, but because why it matters is it was never on the agenda. It was never possible. It could never be done. And I guess it goes back to the competition with my dad, where I'm saying, you know, I believe, you know, when you talk about PE ratios and the value of a business, yeah, we know what we're worth now, but I do believe we have the potential to be worth those kind of numbers. - And that would be your success in some respects. - It's a game. It's a game, Stevie. I don't know, it's not like, I don't think that deeply too. I just see it as a game. - But when you start thinking deeply, it doesn't make you question, it's a good point, why does? - I don't know, I just, I live in a moment. I live in that. I feel that every day we're trying to expand, we're trying to push the boundaries, we're trying to do more. So would I like this business to, you know, sell or have a value of thought? - Fucking right. - Why? - Because it's ridiculous. We're just a couple of, like he's out of Dagnum, I'm his son. - It'd be a great story. - Yeah, but it's just, it's us against the world. - 'Cause the money would do, to be honest, nothing. - The money wouldn't change my life at all. I've got a couple of nice cars, right? I've got a nice house. I don't wanna, I don't wanna jet. I don't wanna, I mean, well, I mean, we'll talk about it, but you know, I don't want for anything. I'm not, I'm at the age now, maybe when I was in my 20s. Yeah, wow, yeah, private jet and you're, you just rent it if you need it. So it's just, it's just the fact that what we've done, I think, I think legacy is, I was talking to Freddie Flint off of my pod yesterday and I said, I said about legacy. And he went, I think legacies are low to bollocks. Oh, I actually, I disagree a little bit because, you know, when you go back to that moment where you're on your deathbed and you might be today, or, and when you've achieved something like that, you just, you just start laughing and you go, I can't believe we've done it. I can't believe we've done it. And that would be, for better kind of memories or the achievements of me. You know, can you believe we've done it? But you've got to enjoy it at the same time, but you know, I don't know, it's, you can, you can debate this all day long because you sit back on the deathbed and you say, yeah, but was I really happy? Well, of course, because this is bringing us happiness. This is, I know that every day I come in here and I'm smiling and I'm up for it and I'm passionate and I'm full of energy and I've got to drive and I fire him up. But that's good enough for me. My dad comes in here, every day has been coming in, you know, into this, into this business for 50, 45 years and he's got the same passion, the same energy that he did when he first started the company. That's got to tell you something. And this is almost somewhat of a contradiction because he's coming in here every day. You're both really, really happy. You come in here with a fire in your belly. But then there's this other part of you that's like, but we need the end point. Well, he doesn't, he doesn't, he doesn't want any of that. You know, he's got no sound. We've got the most amazing business. You know, we're forecasted to just for continue growth for the next five, 10 years. We've got broadcast contracts locked in. We're untouchable. And I'm like, yeah, but how do we go? You know, I want offices. You know, we have offices in England, in New York, in Milan, in Madrid. I want offices in Sydney, in Toronto, in Mumbai, in Beijing. That's what I want. Why? Because we're not supposed to have it. We were never supposed to be this business. I was never supposed to be this kid. - So it sounds like you're proving something to... - Yeah, maybe. - But probably to him. - And if that's what it comes down to. - Which comes back to your childhood. - Probably. - And if you prove that to him, right, you have all these offices around the world. You have a self of five billion. Well, that makes you happy. - Probably not. - But I don't know. I don't think that selling for five billion and making a load of money will make me happy. But it will make me happy to be able to say, I can't believe we've done it. You know, I can't believe what we've achieved. - And then you'll need the next thing. - Part possibly. - Or that might be the cigar on a beach moment. - I wrote this one sentence in my book where I started to understand the moment I described it at the start where someone made me an offer for my business. And I looked at it when I was 23 and I thought, oh my God, 25 million quid. I was like, oh fucking. And then what I learned in that moment is my whole life became so confused. And I almost fell into like, I'd call it chaos. And so in my book, I write that we live our lives thinking that we're striving for stability, which would be completed goals, the cigar, thinking that stability is stability and that we're trying to escape chaos. But what I came to learn was in fact, our stability is chaos. It's the having unanswered goals and it's the problems and it's the forward motion. So our chaos is stability and our stability, the cigar moment would actually feel like chaos. - Yeah. - It would feel like some kind of-- - If it wasn't time. - Yeah, if it wasn't time. And we don't know when it will be time. But what you just said there is very true because like any athlete, that moment when they're in the chaos is where they feel most at peace with themselves. You speak to any fire and you say, "Where would you rather be anywhere anywhere?" And I say, "In the ring." And that's the same for us. So it's not like I want aggravation, but stick me in it, put me in front of problems and tell me I can't do something. That's where I'm in my moment. Am I in my moment where I'm sitting at home, watching TV? No, I'm at my best when I'm doing those under 200 interviews or I've got problems or fights falling through and all of a sudden the shit's hit the fan. That's when I'm at my best. So, and that's where I do feel calm in a way. First, when you have problems, it might be a panic, but for me, okay, this is what we do. We go to work now. And that's the same for an athlete or a fighter. That's when they feel calm, when you might be watching, going, "Oh, if that's not your calm, "that's not your moment, it's their moment, I'm fine." You know, when AJ fights, he ain't nervous. I'm fucking shitting myself because I can't control it. It's not me, it's not what I do, but that's what he does. You know, when a fight's fallen through or it looks like a massive show's about to be canceled and other people in here might be like, "Oh, oh, do you think it'll be alright? "Do you think we'll do?" And I just lock the door and say, "Right, leave me alone." And I go, "Well, that's smart, that's no problem for me." You know, but you only become exceptional at things and used to things when you become familiar with them. And when you put yourself in the same position, time and time again, it was about frame. You know, we always laugh about him giving his press conferences, you know, because when I did my first ever press conference, which was all the Harrison against David Hay, I couldn't stop shaking. You wouldn't have known it at the time, but I put my hands on the table like this. And I could feel him, you know, I could see him going. So I just, when I spoke, I just put him underneath my legs like this and just limp forward and you would never have known. And when I done the next one, a little bit less than the next one. And then within five or six, I never needed notes. I just speak, you know, for hours. - I've seen him. - For hours. - I couldn't believe him. - And with Frank, you know, he done one recently and I could see him shaking, you know, I was just taking the piss out of him. And I just said, "Just keep doing it. "Keep doing it, repetition, repetition. "Keep putting yourself in situations." Steve Davis, who is my godfather, I said to him once, "How do you, you know, "and you talk about sort of sports "where millimeters make a difference? "It's not even more than snooker." You know, I said, "How do you not get nervous? "You know, you're about to go down to pot the black port." And just little one little jolt and he's all over. And he said, "I have no nerve endings." He said, "Because I've been put in the position, "time and time again, in the end, "it's just, it's second nature. "It's just like riding a bike." And that's the same with business. You have to keep putting yourself in the position, time and time again and you'll keep improving. - Listen, thank you for your time today. - I promise you, I know you said-- - No, it's another counseling session. You know, I'm gonna leave it now and go away and have a laugh at the other big things. I think the best thing, you can talk about mindset and mentality and for hours and hours and hours, just keep it simple. Don't over complicate things. Don't overthink things. But yeah, he keeps mine. That's difficult when you want something so bad and you're chasing it. But if you start to really overanalyze, that's when things start creeping in. Just keep it simple. And I said, "Sometimes if things get tough "or we've got problems." And I said to my man, he said, "Don't worry." He said, "Just wake up an hour earlier tomorrow "and go to bed an hour later." And I'm thinking, "That's so, that's so..." And he is the most simple mindset. But it works for him. Because you, and the best thing you can do is be honest with yourself as well. Just try and understand, take a step back and just think about what is happening in the world and your world right now. And if you can understand it, you can deal with it and you can solve it. But just think simple. Thank you.