Jaackmaate: The Untold Story Of My Battle With Health Anxiety & OCD | E127 | Transcription

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Introduction

Intro (00:00)

Could you do me a quick favour if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know, and we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person. People know Jack mate for being the guy to slag stuff off, and that's funny. And then when the content dried up, well I've never got to go and look for someone who's doing something wrong. You can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself. Didn't really get on with my mum. She would do and say things that I don't think any mum should really do. Things would happen at home, and I'd have like a mark on my face, like from someone that shouldn't have given me that mark. I made a video reacting to so well as advent calendar. That changed the game for me, and that the upload before that I was gonna quit. I struggle with health anxiety and OCD. There's probably 15 to 20 times a day where I actually convince myself that I have cancer. So you're too fearful to go and get a health check done? If I go there, and the doctor's like, yeah you're real, then that's the end for me. What do you mean that's the end for you? Jack, give me the context on your life. I sat here yesterday with his role as Adesanya, and he told me about his childhood. And there was hints of that that really kind of felt similar to the experience that I read you've had as a young man as well. And then also I think the other one where I could see real distinct similarities. And I think you might have listened to this podcast is Jimmy Carr? - Yeah, yeah, what a man. - Yeah, what a man, right? I didn't realize he was gonna be such a philosopher.

Personal Journey And Perspective

Your early years (01:35)

One of the things he said to me was, when someone becomes a comedic figure, which I consider you to be in many respects, I think you might be a good type of that. He says that instead of asking, 'cause there's this kind of stereotype that the person themselves is struggling with something and they're trying to make other people laugh, he said to me, as you might have heard, he said, you've actually got to ask them which one of their parents they were trying to please or to make happy. Does that resonate with you at all? - Yeah, I mean, upbringing didn't really get on with my mum. I don't think she truly understood the potential in YouTube, whereas my dad always did. So when I was sort of like, I guess how old are you Steve? - 29. - 29, okay, so I'm 29 and let's see you weeks time. So we were kind of like the first kind of content creators in a way, like we kind of like paved the way, if you will. Some people just, but I was late at the party. - Well, people like Charlie, it's a cool idea, and I just followed them, I guess. But yeah, my mum didn't really get, she might argue this point, I don't know, but I don't think she really saw the potential in what I was doing. So I was just some kid in my bedroom, just talking to a camera, just waffling, not getting a real job sort of thing. And then she has her issues and stuff with alcohol and whatnot, ended up kicking me out, long story short, I was kind of at a crossroads at some point quite early on, maybe like 18, 19, where I was living in my uncle's box room that is flat, which isn't the nicest environment in the world. I think you wouldn't mind me saying. And then I kind of thought, okay, I have to try and take this YouTube shit serious. And at that time, I didn't know what the YouTube shit was. So ever since that moment, I think the pivotal moment for me was I bought a whiteboard, I bought a whiteboard. And that changed, that changed everything. 'Cause I never took YouTube serious like a job, like a nine to five. It was always something that I would just do, just moan about something or do a funny take on something or whatever. So I bought a whiteboard, chopped it up into a month and wrote my plan. And then I think it was in like 2012, I had this thing where I was like, I'm just gonna say yes to anything that comes in my inbox. And I just, for 365 days, just did. And then ever since then, it's just felt like I'm on this weird kind of, I've still not worked it out. Like you've got your shit together, Steve. - No way happened. No way happened. - Look how many cameras there are. - I think cameras is an, yeah, an indication of having my shit together. But okay, I think-- - You're a dragon. - I was mad, isn't it? - Yeah. - Just the word dragon, like that's mental. - It is crazy. You've just reminded me of how much I resonated with what you were saying, because I had a really, what's the right word? I had a real issue with the fact that my mother was so different. - Right. - And so challenging at times. Like as I wrote about in my book, showing up to my school in Hologna, when I was maybe seven years old. - Yeah. - And things like that. - Right. - And I've always really wanted to have a normal family and a normal mother. - Yeah. - That kind of thing. And I kind of got that from reading your stuff. And there's a couple of things where you talk about some of the challenges you think she has, which I also think my mother has. - Oh, wow, really. - She's actually started to talk a little bit about that. - Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. I don't know if my mum's ever been diagnosed with it. 'Cause there's always been kind of like rumours in that, that that's the case. And I've, 'cause I've not been a part of her life in the past eight, nine years. I don't know. - Oh, you haven't? - No, not really. I see her at like my nans at Christmas time and stuff, but there's always a very awkward kind of vibe, where now it's kind of just like that nodding terms. And for someone who's your mum, that's a weird thing to be. Yeah, it's just, yeah, growing up, you hit the nail on the head there, when you said about your mum, like she would do and say things that I don't think any mum should really do. And it's hard now because at what point do you, at what point is it water under the bridge? Like at what point do you go, okay, I'm just gonna make up with her. Sounds like a very like juvenile and stuff, but when so much has happened in your past, how, when is the day when you go, okay, I'll accept you again now. And she sees that because she'll text me every now and then. But my worry is that because she's always struggled with alcoholism, she'll text me at half 11 on a Saturday night. I wanna get that text message at 10 30 on a Tuesday morning. I don't wanna get it at 11 30 on a Saturday night. So I won't reply. And then she'll just assume that there's a lot of animosity still there. And I guess there is, but yeah. - It's funny 'cause I sat here actually, I think yesterday with my sister, and I don't see my sister much, I think my sister wants a year. And my sister really wants me to kind of like reconnect with my mum and like get back on good times with her. But for the exact, for the, I think this sounds like pretty similar reasons to you. I was trying to explain to my sister that like, I need to have boundaries with everybody in my life, not just like my friends, but also with my family. And at some point you've gotta protect yourself. - Yeah. - From going back around the fucking, you know, like taking them back in for giving them for whatever they might have done for you, done to you, and then getting sucked back in because you know, you fall in for this trick once almost. - Yeah, oh, mate, I've fallen for it too many times. Yeah. And I really got my life together, and I started on this kind of trajectory where I am now once I left home. That was when it was kind of like, okay, you need to make this work, or you're just done, you're just in your uncle's box room forever sort of thing. So if it went for my mum, I wouldn't have bought that whiteboard. - What a pivotal moment. - Yeah. - Look at your dads. I heard the story about watching the World Cup. And I was... - Yeah. - My dad's quality, my dad is quality, 'cause he's been for a lot of stuff in his life. So I don't know if you know, but my dad went to prison for manslaughter when he was young, very young. Yeah, got in a fight with some bloke outside of pub, got in a dispute and hit him and the guy fell and passed away. And that plagues my dad now, 'cause they're just two kids fighting in a pub car park. So he went to prison, he came out, and he's just a grafter, that pains him inside. He has to live every day without, obviously it's not right what he did, but I'm never gonna say that. But he's brought me up with a lot of morals and has taught me, if you ever get in any fights, you run away, you don't need to be the big man like he was. And he's always had my back from day one, and he's like my best mate. So for example, when I first got my first YouTube check through, I think it was like $60 was like the threshold that you had to get back in the day. And I think I got paid, so it was at 45 quid or something. And I'm from a council estate, never had any money. And I got that 45 pounds. And instead of giving my mum any money, I just went to top, bought some t-shirts. You remember them old sort of t-shirts for the color? - Yes, with the little buttons down here. - Oh my God, I wanted every color. - Yeah, the color was different color to the top. - Yeah, and the buttons with different colors. Yeah, and I got a couple of those, and I was in my room, and I remember my mum coming in and having a go, and being like, oh, you should give me like half of that or whatever. And then she went, and you've just wasted on fucking t-shirts. And I had done that, that is literally what I'd bought. But my dad, I remember my dad coming in and going, he needs those t-shirts, 'cause he can't be wearing the same stuff in all of his videos. And I was like, he didn't know if that was why I was buying them or not. But he'd literally just made up a reason to apply it to my YouTube channel, and justified why I was, like why did I have to justify that each why I'm buying t-shirts? But my dad just knew from the off. I guess none of us really needed potential in YouTube back in the day. We were all just sort of testing the waters and just having fun. But I feel like my dad kind of had an idea that I'm, he trusted that I saw something in it, even if he didn't. So I am a lot in that respect. And now when I see him, if I've been doing good in my life, bad in my life, I'll tell him everything, and he'll just give me the best advice ever. And yeah, it's just, I'm glad I had him, 'cause he was very much the counterweight. - I really vividly remember the moment when my dad called me to the kitchen table and basically said, "I don't love your mother." - Right. - Like I can almost remember what I was wearing. And I remember from reading about your story that there was a moment where your dad basically said, "I'm gonna leave after this football match." - Yeah, yeah, during the World Cup final, 2006, I think it was, when Italy won on penalties, and Sudan did that as well. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah, so my mum would always kick him out. Yeah, she'd always just, when she'd had enough, kick him out. And it was very much a case of, I think my dad loved my mum more than my mum loved my dad. And my dad was, I think he'd admit he was like the, the kind of like lap dog that would come running back. My mum would kick him out and he'd come back. And I'd see it as a kid, like they're having an argument. He'd be kicked out so unfairly. Like, and I just, I wouldn't be able to work it out. But I kind of understood it because I was on the receiving end of that kind of judgment and stuff sometimes. So I remember he would always kick him out and he'd go around his friends, and I'd go and visit him at his friends. And again, he had a little box room as well. And he hated it and he was a proper graph. They're working all the hours under the sun. So one day he just went, she's going to kick me out again. And I'm just gone. And then, and I'm just going to go. And luckily, he didn't travel to the other side of the world. He just went to a town 30 minutes up the road. But yeah, we was watching a football game world cup and I thought, I better enjoy this because it's going to be different after this. And I think it was a bit different after that because I think if home life was ever bad, he was always the one that I'd be able to chat to about it and that. And then after that, it's a good job. It was a good football game. Otherwise, that would have been shared, wouldn't it? Was there a point you got to where you kind of wanted your parents to separate? Because I fought it for a long time. And I was like, I remember crying my eyes out as a kid at the prospect of my parents separating. And then I remember, I think maybe getting to like 14 or 15 where I was like, I'd actually prefer you guys to not live in some place. I think that's accurate to me. Yeah, I don't know if I'm just looking back and seeing it differently. But I don't think I gave a shit really when it happened. I think I'd always see them break up and get back together and break up and get back together. And I think like, I'd see my dad like stay up all night, right? And my mom loved notes and stuff and she'd wake up and not be asked, get rid of them. And I'd see that side of it. As a kid, I don't think that should have been a side that I did see necessarily the rejection from her for someone that she's supposed to love. So when he was gone, I was kind of like, yeah, go fly. Yeah. Yeah, and then he met his new partner, who's lovely. And then ever since then, I've spent a little haven as well just going around there and just venting and stuff. - Did you ever figure out why she was the way she is? Did you ever try and figure it out? Was it like a generational thing that was her parents or something or something that happened to her? - I don't know because her mom, my nan, is the loveliest woman in the world. So I see my nan all the time. I've got a tattooed on me there. So I don't know where it came from. I just think she's had, she just has what she had. She might be completely different now, but she definitely just had issues. And I don't know whether that's drink, drugs, whatever that may be. Maybe I haven't given her enough time to actually think about why she's like that, really. I don't know. - She's never had help or anything like that. - Not as far as I know, no. Not as far as I know. But my life has been richer. Mentally, I've been a lot healthier without her in my life, which sounds horrible. But that's the truth of it. Maybe one day we'll be able to sit down and talk it all through, not today and probably not tomorrow. - What about school? - You in school, what were you like? - Just a little, I was quite sure actually. Little ginger, twat. - Really? - I was all right. I was all right. - Really? - Yeah, I would just show off to the cool kids. I'd wanna be accepted a lot, so I'd show off to the cool kids. And I remember I used to always say what I think were funny little one liners and not get a laugh. And then once I put a ruler in a fan and it went, and I got the biggest laugh ever and I thought, what is this? What am I doing? So I just became a bit of an idiot in the last few years and was just trying to make the cool kids laugh. So there is a lot of regret for how I was at school as well, 'cause I wasn't a bully. I'd never say I was a bully. But I was a bit of a prick to teachers as well. And there was one teacher in particular, I'd just go in our class and I just wouldn't be asked. And I would just never listen. She'd try, I wonder if in a weird way that she'll stumble across this video. And Miss Chapman was her name, English teacher. And I'd love to reconnect with her and just apologize. 'Cause I mean, we all were, but that was no justification for me individually, but I was just a bit of a prick. I would never listen. And I guess being ginger and everyone's got things that people get picked on for as a kid, but you try and fit in. So I tried to fit in by being the class clown, the funny one. And that's such a cliche. And I hate when people say they were the class clown. 'Cause what that translates to is, you were just a bit of a dickhead. And that's what I was. So yeah, Miss Chapman, if you're watching this, I apologize, you were great. - I hope she is. - Oh, I hope she is. Was it just because you were ginger though, and you were being picked on a little bit, that you were trying to find a way for them to appreciate you? Was that, do you think that was it? - Yeah, I discovered bleach. I bleached my hair. - I am. - I relaxed mine so it was straight. And I'm just caught this short afro thing. - Right, yeah. Well, yeah, I discovered bleach. And then I remember just going to school next day, like that scene in Bruce Almighty, where I'm like, okay, you can't-- - You can't-- - You can't-- - I'm just flying on me. And I was, yeah, I was a different person then. Yeah, and then, but then I was predicted all the top grades. Like I was predicted like 12 GCSEs or whatever it was, like top marks and everything. And I just completely fucked it really. And got like five just scraped it. So, yeah, it was a bit of an idiot really. Only sort of took life serious after school. When, thank God I found YouTube because God knows what I'd be doing if I didn't. - Was there a connection in your view when you look back between your home life and your school life? I think 'cause you said it, was it your 10 or 11? I can't remember that things kind of went downhill for you. I wondered if there was a link in your mind of what was going on at home and what your school performance decline. - Maybe I could sort of blame home life, but I probably wouldn't. I'd probably just say it was more a case of wanting to fit in, discovering at an early age I want it to be the funny one. I've always been in the center of attention as well or wanted to be the center of attention, I should say. So, as soon as I discovered, I was self-deprecating works and putting myself down works, that gets a laugh. I'll do that. And then you're invincible then. Because if people are calling you a ginger twat, if you call yourself a ginger twat, before then. - Disarming. - Yeah, now I've got the cards. Yeah, so I don't think the home life, my home life affected school probably the early years in high school because not going to too much detail, but things would happen at home and I'd have a mark on my face from someone that shouldn't have given me that mark. And I'd go to school and say the cat done it. And I didn't have a cat. So it's like, I think that really affected me. There's little things as well like, I remember like, I had these ornaments, Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. No, I don't think I've even seen the film, but I love these ornaments. And then I'd done something at home that was naughty or something stayed up too late or played the PlayStation too much. And then someone came in and threw the shelf down and smashed those ornaments. And I remember as the shelf was on the floor, I remember the thing, I was probably like 10, right? And the shelf was on the floor. There's a big standing bookshelf. And I remember thinking, please, please, don't say those ornaments are broke. I love them for some reason. And I remember lifting it up and they were all broke. And that was the moment where I was kind of like, I fucking hate this shit. So I remember going to school and having to deal with stuff like that. But in the later years when I kind of had YouTube and found my feet a little bit more and who I wanted to be, I found it a bit easier even if I was pissing the grades up the wall. So does me. - Do you ever worry, 'cause, I, it's something I, as I've gotten older, I think as we get older, sometimes they're like some of the earlier things we learned about love or relationships or how you treat people or how you respond or your temper, they can sometimes surface and you, 'cause I'd have moments where I'd see parts of my parents and myself that I maybe didn't love. Have you ever, you've got, I've seen glimmers of that home life that you think in yourself when you go, fuck, I don't wanna be that person. - That's such an amazing question that is. Like that's so, that me and my sister have discussed this as well because I have, because I, 'cause I separated from my mum, so to speak, quite an early age, just after school, I think I've lost all of her traits that I had in me because they were such negatives to me. I really noticed them, like her biggest negatives like stood out like a sore thumb. So I actively had to not take them on myself. Whereas my sister, she had quite a few of her, my mum's negative traits. And we've spoken about this now as adults and she's like, yeah, I have to actively like, whenever I think like mum would think or do something mum would do, have to try and get rid of it. I have a lot of my, I give my dad all the credit. I have so, a lot of how I am is because of my dad, but I also have my dad's negative traits as well, which I think he would say, and my dad, not so much now, but especially after what I told you about is upbringing and anger was his thing. So, and I have that, not luckily I have it under control. It's never gonna affect anyone else or hurt anyone else. But like for example, if I'm editing and the software shuts down, I'm like, fuck, like I'm really like instantly, I'm so angry inside. And Fiona will have to be like, Jack, just chill the fuck out. Like this isn't that deep. And then I'm like, okay, as long as I remember where I got this from and what, if I can pinpoint it on something, I'm a lot, I'm a lot better. Luckily that's never got me into any trouble. If I'm out and someone says anything to me, I don't get that. I get it through, I have a trivial thing. It's sort of like trivial things. But yeah, I definitely do have some negative traits about me from my parents. - Have you ever gotten to therapy or spoken to anybody to try and understand these patterns or to spot them or anything? Or is it just from like self-reflection that you've noticed? - I did anger management classes at school. - Oh really? - Yeah. - But they put me in them for something I didn't do. I remember walking in the library once and I was at the bottom of these stairs. And this guy just gets thrown down the stairs at my feet and the teachers come in and seen it and I had to do 12 weeks anger. I swear to him, I brought him, I promised you. I'd done a lot of like mad shit at school but that was not one of them. I didn't know how I could throw him and then be down there before him. He was on my feet. So it didn't make sense. So yeah, I remember doing 12 or six weeks anger management but I kind of needed them. So even though I didn't actually throw it down and it says I probably would have been the guy to maybe do that one day had I not had them. I can't remember anything we spoke about in those lessons but yeah, that's the only time I've really debated it. - Does it not ever crop up in your professional work? Like anger issues with like colleagues or with, I don't know, with people? - No, I think I think over the years I've mellowed out so much. I think I've matured so much as well and I think that shines through in like my old kind of like main channel content because I made a name for myself on YouTube by being kind of like the anti- YouTuber and like slagging off other YouTubers. But I remember turning on the camera and putting on such a fake anger that I was talking about things I didn't care about. Oh, Ollie White's got some new 30 pound T shirts. That's more than about that. Mainly because I knew I'd get a million views from it. Not that I cared. So I got really good at turning camera on and putting this kind of like, faux like anger, like fake, like I guess because I was pretending to be angry all the time. I was very alert when I actually was angry and I could keep that under control. So. - Do you regret any of those videos? As you've matured, you say you've mellowed out and matured now and you even spot that you were doing them from like not an authentic place, right?

Your fake Youtube persona (21:48)

Do you regret them? - There's some I definitely do regret. Yeah, the majority are saying no. Obviously we both know that I'm a big fan of Ricky Gervais and he always, one of his mantras is there needs to be a why in comedy. Why are you doing something? If you're targeting someone, why are you doing it? Like, and a lot of my early main channel content, like for anyone who doesn't know, like I made a video reacting to so well as advent calendar. - Everybody knows. It's got like six million views, isn't it? Yeah, crazy. - It did all right. That changed the game for me in terms of YouTube. I was going to quit, the upload before that, I was going to quit and then I upload that video and it changed the game. But like when I look back on videos like that, I have no regrets because it was funny. The comedy almost like it wrote itself. Like there was a reason why I was doing it. It was a sketch, that's all it was. But there would be times when I fell into the trap of like, okay, people know Jackmate for being the guy to slag stuff off and that's funny, whatever. And then I'd find a few things that naturally did piss me off and I could draw humor from it. And then when the content dried up, it was kind of like, well, I've now got to go and look for someone who's doing something wrong and become this kind of like sort of white knight of the internet sort of thing. And it's like, it's never who I was. So I did my first ever video with Ricky Duvay's and that was the biggest moment ever for me. And then I remember uploading the video and the interview was brilliant. And the top comment was, this is good Jack, but Ollie White's released some new t-shirts that you haven't spoken about. I thought, fuck me. So I've got now, that's what you want from me. So then I'd go, I didn't go out of my way to go, okay, Zoella in the title, bangs for you. What is she up to? Oh, she's released the book. Now that book, there was nothing wrong with that book. But I'm actively trying to pick flaws in it that I can dissect on my channel. And it's like, there, that's kind of like the stuff I regret. I remember KSI and Joe Weller, they did their, when I was trying to be a G-boy, a G-boy Jackmate, they did their first press conference for their fight. And that was in Manchester, I think it was. And because I was the black sheep of YouTube, I would never get invited to them. So therefore, by default, the jealousy would take over and I'd be like, this is shit, I want nothing to do with it. We're deep down, I knew that I wanted something to do with that. That whole YouTube boxing scene, in fact, I'm a boxing fan, I'm a YouTube fan. So why would that not appeal to me? And they did a press conference. And JJ, he said something about Joe Weller's medication, which I don't agree with, but in the context of a press conference, you say anything you can to get the other hand. And I remember just turning on my camera straight away. I was like, KSI needs to be canceled, blah, blah, blah, 'cause I knew it would bang views. But JJ's a hero of mine, as I'm sure he is to any YouTube, or any content creator. Joe Weller, I used to watch every single one of his videos. I love Joe Weller, so they're the ones I regret. And I wasn't being authentic, and not even really being funny, just actually trying to go in on someone, 'cause I wanted that check at the end of the ad revenue to be higher that month. - When you were doing that, so when JJ mentioned the medication thing, you hit record, was it like I can make some money here, or was it I can make some money and get attention? - Probably a bit of both. Yeah, because they go hand in hand, don't they? Especially on YouTube. So probably a bit of both. It's not that you're so self aware about this, and you're just like, you're really good at diagnosing exactly why you did it from a psychological incentive perspective. You're like, I wanted this, or I did this, I wasn't true to myself, I did it. And that suggests you've done a lot of reflecting and soul searching and maturing. In what is actually a very short space of time, 'cause this is only, this is not a lifetime, this is not a decade ago. - That video was probably four and a half, five years ago. - Yeah. - Tops. - Yeah. - Yeah. - It's 'cause I realized a couple of years ago it wasn't who I wanted to be. I was probably, I recently did a brand trip with Calfreezy, and the burnt trip, and I was speaking to them out one night, and I'd never done a trip with another YouTuber. I was always, YouTubers are very clicky, and they're all in their groups. And I was always on the outside of that. I was always this boy from Norwich, just had my normal mates, and they surround themselves with YouTubers, and I remember saying to them one night, I think the main reason why I used to go for them is because I wanted to be them. I'm one of the OGs, I really am. I've been doing YouTube probably around, to the same month that JJ uploaded his first one. Like we would have been there at the start, and Calfreezy, Calix, all of these lads, Mini-Minner, and I see them become a collective, and I was like, why am I not part of that? Like, and now I don't give a shit, I'm so happy in contempt of where I'm at, and I've built my podcast now, but as a kid, even as an 18, 19-year-old young man, growing up, seeing that, feeling left out, it probably goes back to how I was at school as well. I thought, okay, if you can't join them, slag them off, become the Darth Vader of YouTube, so to speak. Yeah, and then in recent years, people started to discover that, other people that I really respected, like Willoni, people on you, and then even though Will was my friend, like, still is my friend, like, he'd call me out publicly, when I'd be slagging someone off and go, have a day off, mate, and I would be so angry, because it was accurate, and I'm like, I'm sat there like, so right, and I'm like, no, I'm not bothered, mate, like that kind of thing, so, yeah. Yeah, I was speaking to Cal Frese about that, and yeah. I've got a lot, I've got nothing but respect for him now. My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower, and she said to me that she tried the heel protein shake, which lives on my fridge over there, and she said, it's amazing. Low calories, you get your 20 odd grams of protein, you get your 26 vitamins and minerals, and it's nutritionally complete. In the protein space, there's lots of things, but it's hard to find something that is nice, especially when consumed just with water, and that is nutritionally complete, and that has about 100 calories in total, while also giving you your 20 grams of protein. If you haven't tried the heel protein product, do give it a try, the salted caramel one, if you put some ice cubes in it, and you put it in a blender, and you try it, it's as good as pretty much any milkshake on the market, just mixed with water. It's been a game changer for me, because I'm trying to drop my calorie intake, and I'm trying to be a little bit more healthy with my diet, so this is where heel fits in my life. Thank you, heel, for making the product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is where the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one. You not only did the whole YouTube thing, but you also provided this online commentary, almost constantly about how you were feeling about it. So you were one of the rare YouTubers that in real time would say, I've lost motivation for this, I'm gonna try and find my motivation for this, I've lost motivation for doing this kind of thing, I'm doing it, you know what I mean? And you were very open, so even for me, as I logged into Twitter, I could kind of see where you are on this journey. Obviously, I've seen that change a lot with the whole podcast and the Spotify thing, which feels like you really found something that you do find really enjoyable. But with your main channel, I watch you go through these waves of enjoyment, and then seeing you say, "Well, I'm gonna try and commit to it now," and then that didn't really work. And then, so tell me about that journey with YouTube and what you learnt about yourself from that. - Oh, God, it's really good questions. Scott, have you said like, wait, till you come on my podcast? - Well, no, no, no, no, I've watched it. - I genuinely have watched it, and this is why I kept trying to, you know, I messaged you about, come on my podcast because that watching that journey taught me so many things, and it really reconfirmed a lot about, for me that I've been reading about in psychology about what keeps people motivated and when they're not doing things that are in line with who they are, or they're doing it for a check, I remember reading this study which said, "If you love doing something, "and then they pay you to do the exact same thing, "you lose your motivation." So the minute it goes from being a hobby I'm doing for the love of it, to a hobby that I love doing, but now someone is paying me for, there's this weird thing that happens in the mind where people lose motivation for the exact same thing. - Go in off that, and I'm not sure if this answers your question, but I found this really interesting. I couldn't really work out myself. I spent my whole YouTube kind of main channel era like just saving up all my money, just saving up all my money. The only thing I had to blink is on, I was like buy a house, buy a house, buy a house, buy a house. And last May, I paid for my house, bought it outright. And that was the last time bar one, that was the last time I uploaded. - Really? - Yeah. It was like, it's called Arrival Fallacy I think. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And Tyson Fury had it about when he beat Klitschka and became the heavyweight champion of the world. The next day he was depressed. - It's a real hard to sign your son up there yesterday and said the same thing. - Really? - He said the day after I won the US Utah I went to my hotel room, I was depressed. - Yeah. - I said it last night on stage at the Palladium, I said 80% of Olympians when they get the gold medal, they report depressive symptoms. - Yeah. It was the most proudest I've ever been over at anything and paid it off and then me and my partner Fiona, we moved in in September and I just, I remember just, I was drunk one night and I remember just walking around my house when Fiona was asleep and I just, I just didn't care for where I was. Like it's a beautiful house and I'm so lucky and it's everything I'd worked for. But it was like, what do I do now then? Like what do I, like what? I'll sit on my sofa or going in my kitchen. Like I know, I'm not any happier than when I was renting or it was weird so. - Have you figured out why you thought that way? - No, I know, I don't know. I don't know, it's because the journey is way more fun than the arrival. Then it just is. The most fun I've ever had is probably the first time I got a viral video or the first time I got to present for this company or first time I got a brand deal, do all the stereotypical YouTuber things, the first time I felt like a YouTuber, they're the best moments and I'm not complaining, I'm not sitting here and whining and I'm so blessed and so lucky and yeah, it is a tough one, it is a tough one. But like I did, my kind of like soundbite that I always sort of say is I did YouTube for seven years without earning a penny. And then once the Zoella video kicked off and the ad revenue went up and I earned money, I could never dream of earning. That was no more fun than when I was doing it for free. - And it's funny because I guess the liberating thing to know is that everyone I've sat here with says the same thing. So it's not a you thing, it's a human thing. And so you go, "Hey, if it's a human thing, "what does that mean and why is that?" One of the things, because I was writing my show to the palladium, I encountered was that the reason why we're here is because our ancestors struggled forward and their desire to keep striving is the reason they built these empires and overcame. So I say to the crowd, I say, "Is it conceivable "that they left a message within our genetic code "that says you too shall struggle forward?" And they've kind of like predisposed us to like forward motion. And also this other point, like our ancestors, our ancestors that had a real sense of really liked forward motion, struggle and purpose were the ones that survived and passed on their genes to us. So we've inherited this real desire to have forward motion and a sense of purpose. And one of the things they say is causing the life expectancy to decline in the Western world is specifically, they point at men and say there's an epidemic of purposelessness as the world is starting to change and AI and things like this are, I'm pointing at the little robot that's moving at the room on its own, are taking purpose from people. And so people are now becoming more addicted and depressed and therefore their suicide has become the single biggest killer of men under the age of 45, which has caused the life expectancy to decline for two years in a row. And it's because of, they think, this epidemic of purposelessness. So when you lose your sense of purpose, because you reach the point you're aiming for, that can be so disorientating and confusing. As it was for me, it's 25 when someone came along and said, "We'll buy a social chain off you for 50 million." And I go home and I look at the mansion on right move in the Lamborghini and also trader. And I feel totally fucking lost. - I completely agree. Like, I wouldn't change it for the world.

Does money buy happiness (34:23)

It's everything I've always wanted. But like, 'cause I think money does buy happiness. And I think if people say otherwise, I think they're talking shit. Like, in a way like, well, maybe I should rephrase that to money buys freedom. - Yeah. - And freedom is happiness. And that's what I have now. I can do what I want when I want. The best feeling I get now as a 28 year old, seems to be 29 year old, is when I sort my family out. And like my granddad, he's still working. He's 70, 77, 20. Imagine that, he wishes. He's 77 and he's a big fat lump from Norfolk. And he still does building and demolition and walks on ruse and stuff. And he's not got a penny. And then like, I went to see his parents grave with him in February, last year. And he goes there every week, puts new flowers on. He's been doing it for like 50 years. And it's like, and I could see, he was wearing these beat up boots and this disgusting tattered jacket. And I just went home and I just got his bank card without him knowing from his side of his car, whereas with hand breakers. And I got his bank and I just transferred him 5,000 pounds. And for me, that was like, that was just everything. That was like, that was everything I'd worked for. Was justified in that moment. And I got more out of that than I did when I bought my house. And like just little things like my sister's Type 1 diabetic. So she has like a thing in her arm that constantly pricks her and finds her levels. And I can pay for that shit. And yet last night, my dog died. And the dog that I'd had for 18 years. And literally like found out just before went to sleep last night and it's little things like this that might not seem like a lot, but it was the first time I'd spoke to my mum in ages. And she was like, oh yeah, we're gonna get diddies ashes cost 200 pounds. There's the 200 pounds. So it's like that kind of shit is like, why I owe everything to this online world and people that have given up their time to watch me and brands that have trusted me and stuff. And yeah, that's the best feeling. - I think you nailed it when you said that. Sorry about your dog, by the way, I have a dog and I really, I can't imagine. - It's shit, yeah. - It's really shit, even the thought of it is just terrifying. - She was 18 years and four months, which is quite old. But when they get to that age, you just assume that they're always gonna crack on. - Yeah, yeah. - No, I think you nailed it when you said that freedom is the thing that ultimately does make you happier because I remember not having, I remember getting the bailiff letters and then not knowing how I was gonna eat or knowing that the landlord was gonna come and ask me why and pay the rent in four months and the pressure that of like weighing on me. And the freedom of just like not looking at how much things cost when you go into top line and buy one of those t-shirts. - Yeah. - That kind of thing or what you wanna go somewhere. So freedom definitely makes you happier. But obviously at this point, I've come to realize that if you gave me more money, the fundamental happiness levers of my life won't change. Like you're right, like my sister's been a little bit sick recently, she, and being able to help her, I said to my team this week, I was like, that's the moment where I see the point of this, just being able to like pay the hospital or like get a proper healthcare, those kind of things. My parents got broken into being able to buy them like new locks for their doors so that they wouldn't get broken into again is one of those things where you go, that's what this is for. That's what, that was the feeling. - Yeah, and it makes it all worthwhile, doesn't it? - Completely. - Do you ever feel, again, name drop, but I spoke to Gervais about this, 'cause I was really, I was really, something that plagues me, whether it's right or wrong, is I feel guilty about having money. I feel this sense of guilt where it's like, and I don't have crazy money, like my situation is I paid off my house, I have a bit more in the bank, like that's what it is, but I, because of my upbringing and where I'm from, and I see my dad wake up at five a.m. every morning, go work in a factory for 12 hours, and then still struggle to buy Christmas presents. And then I'm, like you just said, I go online, I don't look at the price of things anymore, and I just buy it, and then it's like, what? Like this doesn't make sense, I'll tell you a quick story, three, four years ago, my dad's dad, my granddad, he passed away, he got bone cancer, or some kind of shit cancer, they're all shit, I guess. And he, I went to his funeral, went to the wake, had a few jars, went back home, went on a night out, and I was in the place called the Waterfront in Norwich, which is where I always go. I go there 'cause I'm comfortable, 'cause everyone knows me there now, so I don't get the dickheads come over and whatever. But so if Jackmates in there, they've already seen Jackmate 100 times, so it doesn't matter. And this guy kept, and I was gone, and I was not in a good place, and this guy came up to me and said, I'd never met him before, and he asked me how much I earn from YouTube, and I think that's such a rude question, but I can understand the intrigue in it, because it's a world that people just don't know, it's a new world, I barely know it. And he asked me, and I just told him, for the first time ever, I was like, this is what I earn, I said, what about you, what do you earn? And he told me, and it was like 10% of what I earn. And I said, what do you do? He said, I work in the cancer ward at the hospital, and I was just like, and I weren't saying, what do you do to be rude? I was just throwing that back at him, and I remember just thinking, it just hit me, just got a lump in my throat, and I thought, why do I deserve this, what I have, when there's these people that are like, they're the fucking angels, they're the ones walking around doing that. Like, I just, yeah, I struggled to then wrap my head around why a brand would pay me 30K to do a video. Like, it doesn't, to me, it's weird. So, I guess you could argue, why didn't you give it all to charity? Well, I'm not gonna do that, but I will give it all to my fucking family, and I will give it all to my fucking kids, and that's what makes me proud. - Is there, this is like a wider point about imposter syndrome? - Is it?

Imposter syndrome (40:26)

- I think so, because, because I've never struggled with the idea that I didn't deserve what I'd created, and I think, so I'm asking myself why you would really struggle with that? Why you might struggle with the thought that you're making money, and other people are potentially having to, 'cause that, I mean, it's a reality of the world, even if you go back to where I was born in Africa, people in the fields for 18 hours a day picking tea leaves and the baking sun get paid nothing, and in the Western world, some people can just play around on their computer and make billions from the stock market or the markets or something, but for some reason, you struggle with this, and other symptoms of imposter syndrome from what I've read in... - Maybe it's, 'cause I think I spoke positively about YouTubers and my peers and stuff, but there's still a lot of them that are pricks, and growing up and seeing, I'd used to go to YouTube events and see my YouTube heroes, and then come over, how many subscribers you got? It's the first thing you'd say, how many subscribers you got? My name's Jack, nice to meet you, Dick Ed. So I guess maybe it's connecting that. I'm now a YouTuber. I now make my money in the same way that Alfred Aes made his money, Ollie White makes his money. I'm that guy, and because I've seen a lot of YouTubers take it for granted, and just assume that that's their right to have these things. That's maybe where I get my guilt from. I never wanna lose touch of that. And you really come from a working class like household, where you've watched your dad work really, really hard, and everyone around you, it sounds like, worked really, really hard wherever you've looked. And it's almost like you found a bit of a cheat code, or I feel like life has given you, I don't know. But you've earned it, I mean, you bought the whiteboard. Yeah. Right? This was intentional. Yeah. And what would show you that? You planned it out. Obviously, moments of luck for all of us appear when we start we carry on carrying on, but you realize that you've earned it, right? Yeah. You do, you hesitated. You don't do. I do, but not to the level in which I've got to now. Not to, like, yeah, I guess, I guess. I have a talent, I can do. I'm a personable person, I can make people laugh, but yeah, I don't know. I don't, I really don't know how to answer it. I get, I've thought about it a lot, I've racked my brains a lot about this. What did you bring to you when you racked your brain? Don't know, just maybe I don't, but then, like, it's, it's, it's cool things like this. Like Stevie White, my podcast co-host, working in boots, rough and wrong with that, it's a respectable job. Just a nine to five, he didn't particularly enjoy it. So I call him up one day and say, let's do a podcast. A year later, he's interviewing Ricky Gervais, Johnny Knoxville, Rob Bride, and he's left his job. He's doing it full time. Fiona, my partner, she was working at a supermarket. I was telling her for years, been it off. I'll teach you how to edit, you become my editor. A couple of years ago, by, she bins it off, she's now working for me. There's a few examples of people in my life that can now have an easier life because of the foundations that I put in seven years ago. That's, that's what I love. And that's when I'm like, I deserve this and the people around me deserve it. Does that make sense? Of course it does. Once again, you said that like the most fulfilling thing for you is helping others. You said that about your family with your money. And now also for profession, it's like giving those people opportunities to live a better life. Yeah, we're just a fucking team. We're just a team. They help me as well. It's not just me going, look, I can help you do this. I showed them that there's a different world out there because people like us, we've been in this world for so long, we've seen the opportunities but they probably didn't. So yeah, I wouldn't be able to do what I do without that, that kind of the team in the background or sometimes in the foreground with people at Stevie but yeah, that's a fucking cool feeling. - Everybody, it sounds like it feels like everybody that's not a YouTuber.

Why stopped posting on Youtube (44:37)

And I say everybody, 'cause there's gonna be people listening that are driving up and down the country right now as they're listening to this or doing the dishes, whatever, and perfectly happy with whatever they're doing. But a lot of young people want to be YouTubers. And the thought that you had this big main channel with how many substance your main channel got now, it's like 1.4 million. - Yeah, 1.4 million. - Yeah. That you would lose motivation to do it. It's quite a difficult concept to understand for a lot of people. You have 1.4 million people that have subscribed to get videos from you and you're like, can't be asked. - Yeah, it's not so much can't be asked. It's just, it's not me. It's just not me anymore. It's people, I'd open up my inbox and people would be emailing me about some YouTuber from France who was sold a pen for a bit too much money. And I need to be the guys that calls them out. And it was just like, I was never, I was never really this guy. So yeah, I guess I just transferred all that energy that I was putting into the main channel, into the podcast. And that's where my passion is now. And doing stuff like this, getting to sit here and chat to you. And yeah, that's, I get what you mean. Like if you'd have asked me two years ago, "Oh, am I just gonna leave a channel with 1.4 million subscribers stagnant?" I would, I'd call you all the names under the sun. I'd be like, "You're a idiot, of course I'm not gonna be that." But it seems that I have done it. I'll use it every now and then. Like in January I uploaded a video about Boris Johnson. - I saw a dope video, sort of over the newspapers. Really, really cool video. - Thank you. - Like creatively, culturally relevant. It really like hit, it was fast. You were very quick to act on that moment. So it was, that I guess, I guess for you probably, is that how you're seeing the use of your main channel now? Like when you genuinely feel you wanna do something. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. When, like, when the why is there. When there's a clear and obvious why. I'll do it. And not just for a quick buck now. I'm very thankful I don't need to do them anymore. - It's hard to sustain something when it's not in line with who you truly are. - Yeah. - It's hard to sustain it for a long period of time. In the short term you could probably do it, but it tends to be the case when I say it with people that at any point in their lives where they were living outside of themselves. Like living someone else's life or kind of like, fan cotton said it like, she had to like go on radio and be this happy da da da da da da. And almost play a character. Jake Humphrey said it to me as well. Like because he was a presenter, having to kind of like put on the mask, eventually it becomes a really heavy mask to wear. And they all eventually it seems kind of choose to throw it away and just rebound. And that seems similar to what you're saying. - 100%. Yeah. I, I, I told this story last night to someone. I can't remember. I used to turn the camera on. I used to go, I'd be sat there and I'd turn the camera and I'd go, right guys, hello, it's me, Jack May, oh, Zoella, oh, what a dickhead. Oh, she's done this, done that. Turn the camera off, just sit there. And I couldn't tell you anything I'd just said in the last 20 minutes. I'm just looking down at my script. She said this in her book about how out of touch is it? And it would just be like, right, that's the ad revenue sorted for the month. See, let's go to Weatherspoons. Yeah, so it was like, you can only do that for so long before you just hate yourself. There is an element of that in me like that. That, that, the advent calendar video, that I've done some videos I'm really proud of, funny videos when it was justified. But there's also ones, it's not so much. I've been doing recent sort of commentary videos over the last two years. My recent ones are like videos I've been doing with my friend Alfie Indra, who's a musician. We've been like sort of taking kind of comical pokes at people like Jeremy Lynch from the F2 and people like that. And I said-- - Can people think I'm Jeremy Lynch or the F2? - Oh, really? You didn't. You don't wanna be, you don't wanna be that guy. You can be Billy, be the other one, he seems all right. But the thing with those videos, I'm really proud of them still. And I guess you could argue, well, you're that same kind of like scathing commentator. Yeah, but I believe that those people can go and pull their justified. So, Ella, not so much, let her crack on. No. - What would you say to her if she was-- Have you ever met her? - Never met her. I don't think she wants to meet me. That'd be an awkward one, wouldn't it? - Is there like, is there any, because that video did really well.

Have you ever thought about the person on the other side of the criticism? (48:57)

- Yeah. - And I think if a video about me had gotten six million views, I think I'd have a pretty shitty month. I was gonna say week, but I think it last longer, 'cause that video did really, really well. I remember sometimes someone were like an article about me and I try and be this tough german, I don't give a fuck, whatever, whatever. But I'm still at like 1 a.m. in the morning. It's hard to get out of my mind. So I think if a video got six million views about me criticizing something I'd done, it'd probably been quite hard to take mentally. - Yeah. - Does that ever like cross your mind? Like ever. - Yeah. - I'm not saying what you did was wrong, because I watched the video and I actually thought it was really funny. So it's like, was there comedic merit in someone that's super successful selling a advent calendar of that nature for that prize? Yes, I understand it. Like when you talk about the why and the gervace, like philosophy, I get it. But does that cross your mind as well? - Yeah. Yeah. That's just another reason why I stopped doing it. It's hard to, I'm not articulate enough to describe how I feel about it, but yeah, the calendar video was funny. There was a clear error on her behalf. And I just ultimately, I wasn't really saying anything nasty about her. It was just this product. Whereas when you do a follow up video and a third video, where's the line? Where do you draw the line? Is it becoming bullying now? Like that's not who I wanna be. I wanna be a comedian. So, I definitely, as I've gotten older, and I guess maybe I was immature for a long time. I should have realized this at a way earlier age than I did. But you do start to consider others. And I'm the same as you, mate. I'll read a comment about me on Twitter, and I will clap back, and I still go back to them now. And Fiz, they're going, what are you doing? And I'm like, fuck 'em. Like, that's a bit of my dad as well. Like, and I'll spend hours arguing with football Twitter. - All the worst. - Yeah. - Yeah. - They've all got like, football players that display picture. - Yeah, yeah. - Fantastic Four Nails. He doesn't know who you are. - Fuckin' out. - Yeah. But I get a bit of a rush from it, really. - I worry sometimes. 'Cause I say to myself, I'm trying to reply to a troll to try and disprove their point, or because it's fun or whatever. But I think sometimes it's because it's like, hit me in the ego. - Yeah. - And I don't want to admit to myself that that person's actually pissed me off. - Yeah. - So I kind of use the guys of, "No, it's funny." Or like, "No." Like, to justify it to everyone. I was like, "I'm not a bothered." But you know what I mean? I really, I really, you know, the internet is not a good place to be if you haven't got control over that. 'Cause you'll get dragged around by trolls with egg emoji accounts, like. - Yeah. - Yeah. Like I said, fees always telling me not, don't shut up being bad like that. Hung over or whatever. Sunday morning going on. And the fee will be like, "Just leave it. "They're fucking idiots." And ultimately, I know they're probably just jealous of whatever it is. Like, I'll get like a good podcast guest on. And then, like the other day, I was in Wales with Go in Price. He's the number one darts player in the world. And put a picture up of me and him. Which is just put in beautiful Wales, thrown a few arrows with Go in Price. And Go in Price is this Panto Villan. I don't know how much you know about darts, but he's like the Panto Villan and stuff. - Is he the Welsh one? - Yeah. - But when he wins, always like, then he's like, "The bumming goes at this big biceps." - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so he, I'd heard for a while that he's always, he's very lovely off camera, but or off the stage. But when he's up there, he's a Panto Villan. I was like, "I'm pretty much like the Jackmater darts in a way." So I put up this picture of him. I was like, "Never judge a book by its cover." Like, "I know this more than, "I know this myself 'cause I always did." Just this guy replied, "Two bellends." As well, but he follows me. Just follows me. So it was like, "I will reply to him." And he's like, "Why are you bothered?" Like that must just be jealousy. Like, "Why else are you? "What are you following me in your doing that?" Like, "It doesn't make sense." But I kind of like, I like to think that I'm very, very honest online. So why would I not reply? Why would I not try and think of some pithy remark to try and put him down? Like, yeah, because I'm meant to be a professional and I'm in this world and I'm working for West Ham. But really, I also think you're a bit of a dickhead and I'll tell you. - Do you think that because you are very like, I imagine if Boris Johnson and like, I don't know, another politician uploaded a foot for, you'd probably quite retweet it and say two bellands. So like, do you think there's a chance, 'cause I don't think anyone would ever tweet me that. Like, do you think there's a, because you've cultivated a younger male audience that are comedic and they're like, they use kind of, kind of colloquialistic, funny language like bellands. - Yeah. - You're also now at the mercy of them attacking you with the same language in that situation. I'm just wondering why no one would ever tweet me if I uploaded a photo to a bellands. - My audience just don't speak like that. - Wait until this episode goes. - Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. - Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. - It's too balanced. - Yeah. - You see what I mean? And then you're having to deal with that because. - I can what you mean. Yeah, but then maybe they see a bit of, 'cause I was. - Yeah, they think you maybe like that as well. They think, oh, you know, 'cause he follows you and he clearly looks up to you if he's following you and that stuff. - That's true, it's true. It becomes more real when you like, when like someone, there'll be people out there that will defend me on that thread and they'll say, you don't know him. And he'll, well, he looks like a prick, look at his trousers. - Oh, okay, it's personal. - Yeah, it goes a bit deeper then. But like, you are right because I would always do an event called Summer in the City. It was the only time I'd ever get out of like Norwich and go and meet the fans. And they'd put you in a pen and they'd be all these YouTubers in this big hall at like Excel and you'd be in a pen and then the fans would come up one by one. And I'd meet like 13 year old girls. You might want to believe this, I don't know, but they'd come up to me and go, all right, you can't. And I'll be like, what have you just said? And then, but then because that's what I'm doing online, all right, you fucking dickhead, but they're there to meet me and they want their things signed. So they like me, but they think, by getting, but then I wouldn't go up to like, I wouldn't go up to Declan Rice and start doing Kepia around the world, all right, Declan? - Oh, my goodness. - So you just, I just have to be like, yeah, maybe I am the influencer. Fuck, scary, scary notion. - No one's ever said that to me in a meeting, great. So it's really interesting. And there's an element of, you think there's an element of your childhood in that, in the sense of like being triggered a little bit by what people are saying or the criticisms that, you know, triggers you maybe, because I'm thinking about myself, I definitely wouldn't sit in bed replying, especially now I'm on the BBC, like BBC, I want it's a bit prestigious in it. I can't really be popping off too much. - Yeah. Well, yeah, probably. I probably shouldn't be either. Do you want to be the type of person that doesn't? - No, yeah, yeah, but I can't, Steve. I can't, like, I'll reply to them. And then, and then Fee will be like, delet him and then I'll be like, no, not gonna. And then in an hour, it's like, it's like a come down. I'm like, all right, now I'll delete them. And then in an hour later, someone else has said something. - What do you mean? I'm so mature on Twitter. It's a joke. - There's a real risk there have been, like, pulled around emotionally there by the external world, right? - Yeah, I've deleted Twitter off my phone a few times. Yeah, we went, I went up for a dinner with Max Fosh and I told him about, he questioned it. He was like, why'd you always go back at these idiots? I'm like, I'll just find it funny. Or they just get to me. And I deleted Twitter off my phone. And he was like, I said, I'm gonna do it for the whole weekend. And he was like, I guarantee that you'll re-download that by the end of the meal. And I did, and I was scolling there looking through it. So when football Twitter say, we're in your edge, mate, nine times out of 10, you are in there. But I'll try and get back in yours. - Do you not think it'd be a happier life just to fucking, like, 100%, yeah. Yeah, but I guess I get bored. Is it that? - That's pretty good. Yeah. Quick one. As many of you know, I've been trying to make my life a little bit more sustainable as it relates to energy. Ever since I sold my Rangeover Sport and bought an electric bicycle. And my energy, as a sponsor of this podcast, one of the brands that make that transition much, much easier, they are at the forefront of British renewable, eco-smart technology. And their products are really, really changing the game. If you're on YouTube, you can see what I'm holding in my hand. This is called the Eddy, right? It's the UK's number one solar power diverter. So what is a solar diverter? It's a device for people like you and me that means you can divert your excess energy back into your home rather than back into the grid, which will save you power and money. It's super user friendly and easy to install and you can control it using the My Energy app on your phone. To find out more about this product and more products like here, that will help you make that sustainable transition, head over to MyEnergy.com and I highly recommend you check out the Eddy. It's a real game changer for a product and one that I'm gonna be installing in my home soon. Happy hour. So this was a really pivotal moment. Where did that start?

Happy Hour Podcast (58:21)

Why did you decide to start doing long form podcasts instead of the other types of videos you were making before? - I've always wanted to interview people at college, 10 years ago, I studied interview techniques. My granddad was the first person I interviewed. He came in and I interviewed him about the wall and all that kind of stuff. And I always wanted to do it. And then in 2017, I had a podcast with my friend Tom Norris. Did it, done it right. But it was just too much. We didn't have the YouTube space and we'd rock up sometimes and they didn't have the cameras in and that. So it fell by the wayside. But then 2018, I wanted to do another podcast. I said to Faye, I said, "Who should I do it with?" 'Cause I always knew I wanted to do it with yeah, every man. So not a YouTuber. 'Cause that's not, I'm not a YouTuber that's been friends for YouTubers. I'm a YouTuber that's friends with my mates in Norwich. I'll do the best video ever with the big celebrity. Come back to Norwich and they'll just go, yeah, we didn't watch it mate, not bothered. And I'll just be in the pub and that'll be everything I need to keep me grounded. So she suggested Stevie White, who's just a mate that lived in Bristol. And I called him up and said, "Do you wanna do a podcast?" And he said, "Why?" So good boy. Good boy. And then we ended up giving it a go. I started doing it with a guy called I'm Alex, who's a YouTuber that was very, a commentary YouTuber. So he was calling out people. He would do the cookie cutter templates of like, X, Y and Z needs to be cancelled. X, Y and Z needs to be cancelled. And he was doing that all the time. So originally my show was a YouTube drama show to call people out, to be an extension of what I was doing on the main channel. And then after about five or six episodes, I thought this is just poisoners and I don't, it's not me, why am I trying to do it in a different format? So we dropped that and started getting guests on and interviewing people. And I found the love of YouTube again, which I'd lost for a few years. Was there like a pivotal moment in Happy Hour where you thought, "Fuck, this is gonna be, "wasn't it wasn't the Spotify do it must have come sooner "than that right?" Where you thought this is, we've got something here. Yeah. Again, it was probably getting Javez on. Oh, because I can't remember that day. He was in our first like three guests. Nice. And I'm so grateful that he gave me a chance years ago, 'cause I genuinely believe I would have none of this if it wasn't for him giving me a shot. And I built up a connection with him years ago. So he then, when I needed someone big to come on the podcast, he would step in. And you know what? It's like you get one through the door. Other people almost then don't judge the show based on me. They'll judge it based on who else is setting that set. Yeah. So I owe a lot to him. So that was probably a defining moment. And testament to Stevie as well, because I've been doing this for 10, 12 years. I've been around people like Javez. I've been very lucky, very fortunate. And I remember how nervous I was the first time I sat on the sofa with him. The first time I filmed with him was the most nervous I've ever been for anything in my life. And then Stevie White has come literally seemingly out of boots the day before. And then he sat there with Ricky, and he's just gets it. He's just on, and he's just the glue. And I was like, I've chosen the right person there, like to do this journey with. And then the money started things. So eventually you get approached by Spotify, and they offer you a contract or a deal, exclusive deal to do. I remember watching your video announcing that. Yeah. And you were very, very honest. I can see what I-- No, like, I think that's probably why people like you so much, because you're, I can trust you. Because you're going to tell me the way you go. Listen, the money is a fucking, very important thing here. And you've been very overt about that, which I think is admirable, because again, it builds trust. People don't have to like what you're saying, but they're going to trust you. They're going to trust you to always be honest with them. So what was your thinking around the Spotify deal? Because, you know, I don't know, some day Spotify might approach me and ask me if I wanted to go Spotify exclusive, and maybe you can give me some advice from that. The reason I did it was purely financial. I thought it was going to be a bad idea. And I took some-- my network, I'm signed to, they wanted it to happen, because obviously they've got a slice of the pie. Did they orchestrate the deal? Did Spotify go to them? And then to you? Yeah. OK. And originally I saw it as, OK, I'm taking off the full visual episodes on YouTube and just putting them on an audio-based platform, whereas a lot of my audience might be younger kids. And people like me and you, we probably consume a lot of just audio when we're on the go and in the car and that. Whereas I think younger generations-- and I'm basing this on nothing, you probably know better than I do. But I imagine younger kids probably like the more visual. They like to watch the-- I do so. So I thought taking it off is probably going to get a lot of backlash. And then Spotify told me how much it would be per year and the potential for how many years. And I thought, well, that doesn't just change my life. That changed my children's life, who don't even exist. So I literally did it because I was financially driven. And I've got no quam saying that or admitting that. But what I'll also say is now I'm starting to see the benefits a year in of going with Spotify. And they've not got a gun to my head. I can be as honest as I want about it. If I thought it was shit, I wouldn't have then signed on for the second year. But they are now pulling out guests for us that I would have never been able to pull on my own. Up until two months ago, I'd booked every single one of my guests, personally, on Twitter, DMs, or Instagram, or whatever. Last few months, they've booked us Johnny Knoxville as part of his jackass press junkets. Rob Bryden. Russell Howard. We've got talks of some big, the biggest movie stars in the world because of Spotify. So as somebody who has always wanted to sit down with the most interesting people in the world and pick their brains, they've allowed me that. So-- And they've also said that I can get the full video on Spotify if I want. And the only reason I'm not doing that is for a few things behind the scenes that I need to-- well, I can say it, come on. It's because I'm earning money on the YouTube, right? So it's like, you need to give me a little bit more to take that off. So it needs to be worth your while. Yeah. I've actually had a conversation with Spotify about that as well, about that video thing. And I was considering it. Spotify have said, to me, do I want to move the video to Spotify as well? Right. And again, me and Jack were trying to weigh up what that means. Because we're not going to get paid for that on Spotify. But does that mean we'd lose YouTube viewers if we moved it there? And we kind of concluded that we wouldn't. Because we think that, as you've said, they're kind of very different types of people. The YouTube watcher is not necessarily the Spotify. Right. People seem to be in their habits. They like cycles of how they consume content. I don't know. I don't know if you've been debating that. But yeah, but then I don't know. Because if I'm listening to one of your apps, I'll put-- I'll put the YouTube version on, even if I'm not watching it. Same. Yeah. Same. Yeah. But then if it was on Spotify, would I then go to Spotify for that? Like, I don't know. I honestly do not know. I like the arrangement I have now, where people can watch the little clips on YouTube and listen to the full ones on Spotify. Yeah. It's like advertising as well, isn't it? Because that can go viral on YouTube. And then that brings people over to watch the full thing. Yeah, for sure. Which makes a lot of sense. Which will big vision as it relates to the next five, 10 years for Happy Hour. I want to do a live show. Well, really? Yeah, we've been contacted a few times about doing a live show. But it just has to be right. We actually did a pilot one in London somewhere a few years ago. But it was the old show with Alex and the Moian. Yeah. So yeah, I want to tour it. I want to have a more official chat show. I don't know what that means, because I have a chat show. But is that on television? I don't know. Is it? I don't know. I want a better studio. I just want to keep-- I'm really fucking happy, mate. So I just want to keep doing what I'm doing. And just make it bigger and better. And just see what happens. Thursdays, which is today of day of recording, and my best days of the week. I used to live for the weekend to get pissed and go out of my friends. Now I live for Thursdays, because I love-- after this, we've got Go in Price on a mine, and then you're coming on mine as well. And I'm so excited for both conversations like that. So I just want to keep doing it. It's the most impossible question when people ask me where do you want to be in five years. I want to be here. Yeah. One of the things that you've also been really open about, especially in 2019, I saw you talking a lot about this, was that was really tough year for you, right? And you talked a lot about your mental health battles, and just not feeling so good.

Health Anxiety (01:06:52)

Yeah. I struggle with health anxiety and OCD. And I remember that was a time when I was really, really low. And again, I think I've touched on it a few times, but probably going out a bit too much and doing stuff I shouldn't have been doing. And that it goes hand in hand, isn't it? You feel shit, because the OCD is consuming you. You go out to get pissed up to have a break. But then the next day is anxiety, or whatever they call it now, is twice as bad. So yeah, 2019, I think, was really when that started to get really bad. And I still have it now. It's never going to go away. But it's a really weird, really weird thing to deal with. Health anxiety. Yeah. So when I was 13, I found a lump downstairs. And I found that with certain words, like testicles, balls, stuff like that, I struggled to say them. I physically struggled to say them. When I'm talking to Fiona, I'll say the T word or whatever. And because I remember I was like, all night, worried that I had the C, that I were panicked and I was so fucking nervous, I remember going to the doctor and he had to check it out and said, oh, it's fine. It's just a cyst that will go away. And it never went away. And I still have it now. But the hell thing is like this, how mad it is, I can't touch that part of my body. I can't look at that part of my body. I can't go there. There's probably 15 to 20 times a day where I actually convince myself that I have cancer. That's how crazy it is. It comes in waves. The best way I can explain it to people who don't have it is I don't smoke weed. I have done in the past, but I assume you've smoked weed. Yeah. For me, I can't smoke it because I lose my head. So you know that moment when your brain sort of floats off and you stop being conscious, you're conscious, but you stop having your, you're not as alert. And then suddenly you've come back to reality for a few seconds. That's what my brain does with cancer. So because I had that trigger when I was younger, that's really given me this kind of disorder, so to speak. And then that OCD has grown and taken so many different tangents. My granddad who's on this arm, my best man, he'll be my best man at my wedding. He got ill with Septocemia when I was 14 and I got home and my mum had told me that he was in the hospital. I remember I went and saw him, went home, I had a picture of him and he was holding me when I was a baby on my wall and my lucky number 13. And I kissed at 13 times. And then a couple of days later he got there. So that fucking triggered me. And then I could not go to sleep without kissing at 13 times. I've never been a religious guy. I've actively always spoken about my atheism, probably because I was trying to be a BTEC Ricky Gervais. But they are my beliefs still now or lack of. And I made up a prayer in my head. And I knew it was like, it's embarrassing to say it aloud, but it was like, dear God, please look after my mum, dad, and granddad, sister, and then I'd name them all. And then I'd have to say it three times. And even though I wasn't saying it out loud, if I tripped over a word, even thinking it, like I thought of the wrong word in the wrong order, I'd have to go back and do it again. I went to have a seep over around my friends and then halfway through the night, realized fuck, I haven't kissed that photo of my granddad. So I had to go home. Like that's how mad it is. And now luckily with the numbers and the patterns and the sort of more known about aspects of OCD, if you will, the more documented parts of it, I don't necessarily have those. I obsess over time and sunsets and sunrise, which is weird, but the cancer thing is something that really consumes my life. And if there's an advert command for cancer research, I have to shoot up and turn it off. And it's alarm bells in my head, ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, there's been a few times during this chat where my brain's gone off and it's like, things like, oh, if you need to write a will, or oh, what's going to happen to the channel when you die? Like, yeah, all the little things. Yeah, it's a strange thing. But I spoke about this with Joe Weller on my podcast and I've had hundreds of people DM me on Instagram saying they have a similar thing. And although I don't reply to all of them, I try and get my way through as many as I can. Deep that in it. Yeah, but on one hand, it was because it's not a world. I'm thankful it's not a world that I know, but I was sadly thinking, oh my god, then you can't be the only one that's going through that. And it's so amazing that you're so honest about that because there'll be people listening to this right now that go, that is me. And the concept of health anxiety seems so alien to me, but 15 times a day, you said thinking about cancer or death and mortality. And it's not the prospect of you might have it. It's my brain telling me I do have it. There's no other outcome. It will be, I'll be chatting to you now, and then for a minute, my head will be going, oh, remember you've got, remember you're ill. Yeah, oh shit, right, okay, I need to deal with that at some point. And then it's almost like that moment when you're high and then you come back down and it's, it's what the fuck? And then I'm back in. There's a rapper called NF who struggles with OCD. And he talks about them, he puts it into kind of like, he says they're like black balloons that he's carrying around in his brain. And every now and then one will flow away or come back. And I really resonate to that. If anyone out there has got a health anxiety and resonate with some of the stuff that I'm saying today, check out NF. He's got a few songs about health anxiety and OCD in there. It's pretty, they're pretty good. They're pretty accurate. - How does someone go about overcoming these things or curing them? Is it therapy? Is there other resources that they can seek? - I have, I've never been able to do therapy in terms of, because I don't truly know if I'm ill or not. I can't bring myself to get walked through the doctor's door. Because if I get that confirmation, I melt down. I probably fucking do something silly. Like, I don't know. So I don't want that confirmation. So I'm the worst person to answer that because I would actively encourage people to go and, if they have a worry, like go and get a lump checked out. Of course, why would you not? Or if you have, if you know you have this health anxiety, OCD, whatever mental disorder it may be, I would actively encourage people to go and talk to someone whether that be therapy or whatever. But I can't do it. So I can't practice what I preach. My friend Liz, she bought me an OCD work book. And I go through that every now and then and answer the questions and write things. And yeah, so it's a hard one for me to answer because I wouldn't be able to practice what I actually preach. - So you're too fearful to go and get a health check done? - Yeah, I can do it. I can do it. So I'm shop shutters come down in my brain like that. Because if I go there, and the doctor's like, yeah, you're ill, then that's the end for me. There's no recovery process. That's it. And that's a mental thing. I know that's not the right thing. So you only get upset when she hears that. But I can't. Maybe it will change when I have kids. - What do you mean that's the end for you? - I can't live with knowing I'm ill. So even cause I've put so much time and effort into believing it myself, my little breaks now or when I'm like, actually, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. If I ever got that confirmation, I would shut down. I would, but that's why it's a disorder. That's why it's not right. It's weird. - Living with those thoughts is not an easy thing to do. And you've found yourself, and my business partner, you've met Don McRae, you've been using. He went through a number of struggles, which he's been very open about. And he turned to alcohol as a way to kind of like self-medicate. And I remember coming downstairs and we lived at the Mickle Door, didn't if you ever came to the Mickle Door. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - In Manchester and finding him in the early hours of the morning just drinking with the lights off at like 3 a.m. - Yeah. And then thinking like, oh, this guy's just a pisshead, whatever, finding out years later that he had like some severe anxiety, suicidal ideation. He used to stand on the train station. He said and considered jumping in front of the train and stuff. Did you ever find yourself medicating to try and escape some of these thoughts or realities you were living in? - Yeah, I still do it now. I still do it now. I will go out and drink with my mates. And it's not a big problem now, and nothing to worry about. And if it was, I wouldn't be sat here telling you about it. But I would go out and drink with my mates, and then I would come home and carry on just drinking on my own. Because the OCD, the balloons fly away. And then I feel the shop shutter goes up and I've got this release that I've not thought about having cancer in the past five hours. Because I've let loose on booze and then I'll come home and then start to sober up and don't want that. I don't want my thoughts back again. So I will sit there and I will drink more and it will get to six in the morning. And the sun, that's why I obsess over sunrise as well because I just, yeah, it's just a tough one. I can't, I struggle to sleep almost every night because when I get in bed, I think about it more. And then when the sunrise comes up and it's a new day and I know I have to start again, it's a tough one. So I obsess over sunrise times and I could probably tell you within 15 minutes, maybe when the sunrise is, things probably like 652 right now, maybe. - What's the significance of the sun rising, sorry? - Because I panic so much at nighttime and that's when the worst thoughts come into my brain that I panic so much that I cannot sleep and I'm just in a circle of thinking, cancer, cancer, cancer. And then because it's like, I know I need sleep 'cause I need to go in and interview this person tomorrow or present for West Ham tomorrow. It's an important thing. It's important for everyone. But I have to be on camera. I can't have bags under my eyes as well. So I see it as an egg timer and I'm like, shit, shit, shit, shit, the sun's gonna come up and then I've not had any sleep and I've got to go and perform. And so I'm checking my time. I need to know when the sun's coming up so I obsess over that. And another OCD thing is I always have to turn my phone off on the 15 minutes. So I have to look at the time, say it's 4 a.m., I have to see that 4.0.0 for the light to turn off before I can settle. And if I miss that and it's 4.0.1, well, I'm up for another 14 minutes then 'cause I need to see it hit 4.15. Yes, it's weird. And I don't mean to sound insensitive when I say that. It's weird because I have it myself. But it is an unusual thing. But there are a lot of people out there that have a similar thing. So hit me up on DMs. Maybe we can have a chat. - Did you sleep last night? - Not really. - Not really. - Really? - If there's any talk of death in any capacity, I will relate that back to myself. And obviously I lost my dog last night. So I was just, yeah. Just up. Thinking, yeah. It's weird because even though all those thoughts plague me and this is like a therapy session for me, like talking about this 'cause Fiona has heard this a hundred times and then no one else has really heard it. But even though those thoughts plague me, I am really happy. I just am. - So last night you find out your dogs passed away and that sends you into sort of a spiral thinking about death more broadly in yourself. And that keeps you up last night. - Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm in a bit of a routine at the moment where like I've had like two, three hours sleep, have a really busy day today, drive back to Norwich and then probably have two, three hours sleep tonight, two, three hours until I become exhausted. And then I can just sleep all the way through one night and it's a reset. So like I just work until I can't anymore. But the thing you were saying about Dom drinking at like three in the morning, like that is, that is, I've been that guy. I've been that guy 150,000 times. Like, yeah. So when you said it, I could envision him there 'cause I've been him. - The thing that you said about your drinking pattern that I could really relate to is with all my mates, we'd like come home after like being in Manchester or whatever. And I would like drinking ark if it was a graph goes like up and then plateaus. - Right. - Because we were like, we've had enough. What you said is that you wanted to carry on drinking because you didn't want the sober thoughts back. And that's exactly what I used to see in Dom I used to look at him in thinking, why does he never want the party to stop? Why does he never want anyone to go home? Why does he always, it seems like once he's had one, it's a straight line upwards until he is and capable of pouring another. - Yeah. - So I would be like, I'd have three and then tail off and then wanna be in bed by like two a.m. - Right, yeah. And so I have mates that like you and I'm the Dom in my group. And I can't, I could never understand the use. I could never understand how, why do you not wanna carry on? Like it doesn't make sense. It's such a release for me, such a break from my everyday thoughts. What, like I just assume everyone's gonna be the same. Like, you just wanna go to bed, and lay there with those thoughts, like no way. Like, let's just carry on and see the birds come up. - Fiona, tell me about that. You know, it's hard enough having a partner anyway when you're busy and you're focused on building your career as I found out.

Your partner (01:20:23)

But when you're dealing with difficult thoughts often, it can make it, I guess, an exacerbating factor. So it can become more difficult. - She's just the best thing that's ever happened to me. Like she's just fucking incredible. Like she will sit there and listen to me until six, seven in the morning. Just every time, just talk about things. That's regardless of if I've been drinking or not, because I feel this podcast may make it sound like that's what I do all the time. It's not, like, I will do that more frequently than most people. I probably have two of those nights a month, where I stay up until the silly hours. But compared to where I used to be, it's not, it's fine. But she will just sit there and listen, and she's not a drinker, she never drinks. So she'll come out on a night out and we'll just be high on life, which is brilliant and beautiful. And I wish I had a bit of that. I don't. So we're very much chalk and cheese in that respect, but she keeps me going and there was a time in December where I'd stayed up too late. And so it was now the early hours of Sunday morning and anxiety was running through my veins. And I said, I'm not gonna go to work on Monday. And I was hosting something for West Ham. I said, I can't do it. I said, I can't look people in the eyes. I said, the OCD's too much. I'm shaking, I'm panicking, I can't face it. And she said, oh, you will do it. I said, don't force me to do it for you, please. I don't wanna do it. She said, I'm not gonna force you. I got up in bed and she'd packed all my stuff that I needed on my laptop and put it in the car. And then when I was ready, she was like, I've run you a bath, you're gonna get a bath. And then we're gonna go to London, book the hotel. I went to the hotel, woke up the next day, presented for West Ham, done a good job, smashed it. Went driving home next day, I was a bit teary-eyed, and was like, I need you to just push me into things. 'Cause if I hadn't have done that, I would have just been hated myself for ages. So she's very much my rock, and sounds a bit cheesy in that, but I would not be making content now, if it wasn't for her. - What an amazing person. - She's fucking beautiful, mate. Yeah, she's incredible. She's incredible. Some of the advice she gives me and stuff is like, and when I met her, she was having bad panic attacks, and I didn't know panic attacks were a thing. I really didn't, we was in Covid Garden, and she started shaking, sat on the floor, and I was like, what's going on here? And now, she would do no public, kind of, if I was doing any public event, she didn't wanna be there, she didn't wanna be whatever, and now it's completely flipped. I've brought her into my world, whether she wanted to or not, she's been a byproduct of me for so long, and now I'm a byproduct of her, and she's my backbone, and she's got all of her anxiety, seemingly under control, I'm sure she'd tell me if not, and she doesn't have panic attacks, and now I'm that guy, and she's, so, yeah. Shout to Fiona, shout to Fiona, here I am. - It's so lovely to hear you talk with such admiration about her as well, 'cause guys can sometimes, they either avoid talking about their partners, or they're a bit too tough to give them the credit for the supporting role they play, but I think the same way with my girlfriend, who's like, "Shops, there's now who's been a real rock for me, "and I'm a real stabilizing force," and really helped me focus on what actually matters in life. It's like, really, I think with my girlfriend, she probably, I don't know if she's even through the curtain, she can hear me, but she doesn't particularly care about what I've achieved, doesn't seem to care at all when I, if I made loads of money, it's more about the other things, like in terms of being connected to my family and being a good human being, those are the kind of things she drives me on, but-- - Feas are same, yeah. - Yeah, like me and my family, if I go around my Nan's on Christmas Day, we're all like, "I love my family, of course I do, "but we'll watch TV, "that Christmas special forever's on." We'll go around Fiona's house. Her family never turned the TV on for three or four days over the Christmas period. They sit there and they talk and they love each other and they embrace each other, and for me it's like, this is weird, like this is old fashioned, like-- - Old school values. - Yeah, but she-- - That's like that. - She's just so full of love, and she just, yeah, she just brings everyone closer. She walks into a room, she brightens it, so you wanna be a dad someday? - Geez. - Yeah, I do. - Why was that question difficult? - I don't know, I don't, me and Fe have spoken about it, like some 29 now, the soon in two weeks, so I'm getting, I feel like I have to kind of soon. - You have to kind of soon? - Yeah, I have to have a kid soon, surely. Like-- - So soon. - I don't wanna be a dad that's like 60 when they're like 20, so like, I don't wanna be. I can't have a kid when I'm 40 now. - But you wanna have a kid? - Yeah, I do wanna have a kid. I'd be a great kid, I'd be a great dad. - But ideally not soon? - Yeah, I said when I was early 20s, I said by the time I'm 25, and then when I was 25, I said by the time I'm 27, and then now I'm saying by the time I'm 30, but I've got just under 13 months, so I don't think that's gonna happen. And Fiona's just had a, her sister's just had a baby, so Fiona's just becoming auntie, and we love the little baby, of course we do, but, course I'd work, and I can give it back. What about that? - It doesn't feel a bit scary. For a lot of people, it's quite a scary prospect. For me, it's a little bit of a scary prospect too, 'cause I think, what am I gonna have to sacrifice to? I don't wanna sacrifice anything. We have to sacrifice something to find time, right? - Sure. - When you're very career driven? - Yes. - Yeah. I just sort of run about from place to place, talking to people on a camera. Like, I could have a kid, and if he could stay at home and edit, but I love my life so much, I don't want it to change right now. You can have a kid? - I hope so. - Mm-hmm. - I hope so. - I'm gonna come through the car. - What's your answer? - You know you're talented, right, though, Jack? You know what your talent is, right?

Whats the reason you’re sitting here today? (01:26:20)

- Yeah. - What do you think your talent is? It's a difficult question to ask people, 'cause it makes them feel uncomfortable. But what do you, if you had to say, like, the reason I am sat here today, and the root cause of my success, what would you diagnose it if you were talking about Jack Mate from like a third party perspective? - I think I can speak to most people on their level. So you can put me next to KSI. You can put me next to Deborah Meiden. And I'll be able to get a laugh out of them. And when they know the real me, and I'm not trying to be Jack Mate, I think that's a good person. And I've never been the best YouTuber, which is probably why I don't do the typical YouTube anymore. I'm not the best presenter, but I'm one of the best podcasters, I would say. And I've found what it is I love and what it is I'm good at. So I would say I'm a really good talker. - I would completely agree. I think you're much more talented than you give yourself credit for, actually. - Thank you. - I look at some of the stuff you do specifically with presenting actually and podcasting, but presenting and podcasting. And it's clearly, it's almost a bit like, well, Brasia, like clearly a real talent that is in my view, like impossible to replicate. Like, and you talked about potentially in the future doing some stand up stuff. I saw you talking about that before. You'd be great at that. I can never do, like, I don't believe I could have, I shouldn't be such a pessimistic person. - You've been doing big theater productions, right? - You're not there making people, I'm not trying to make people laugh, I'm trying to make them cry. It's like, it's like a completely. - Yeah, but that's a fine line in comedy. If you can make someone cry, you can make someone laugh. It's all about emotions. That's what it's all about. - Do you know what it is? It's like the labels we give ourselves and I've never labeled myself as like a funny person. I've never told myself that I could make people laugh whereas you do that. You do that very, it almost like effortlessly. And I think, to be honest, I think you've been practicing since you're a kid, as you've said, so. - I did two shows, opening up for Max Fosh in November and they were the best moments ever of your life. - Yeah. - And that was stand up. - Yeah. Yeah, I feel a bit silly saying it because Max Fosh did an hour, beautiful show and it was called "Zoshel Butterfly". It was spelled with a Z for a reason that becomes clear in the show, but he had presentations and everything and he came on my podcast. I said, "Oh, you're a real stand up now. "You've just done a tour all up and down the corner." He was like, "No, I don't feel like a stand up "because I had these aids and it was almost just whatever." And then I felt like an idiot because I'd just done "Five Minutes" opening up for him. And I was putting online that, "I've just done my dream, but I had, I had." I was so nervous. I pretty much had a panic attack before I went out. I was looking at Fego and I can't do it, shaking, couldn't do it, had all my little jokes written on my hand there. - Really? - They'd already sweated off and I tell you what, Steve, like, I put myself down a lot and we've spoken about self-deprecating humor. I went out on stage, Max Fosh just suddenly went, "Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the stage, Jack." I went out and that was what I was meant to be doing. Everything, any comedian that told me on my podcast came to me in that moment and I learned that and applied it on the stage. And I had people eating out of the palm of my hand and I would make a joke. And I would, but when I did a bit of stand up years ago, I rushed through it 'cause I wanted it to be over. I was in the moment and I was able to live in the moment and leave pauses and hit beats and it was well good. I walked out and the guy in the front row had my merch on. So I was like, "There's one guy here that knows, so I was able to talk to him." - You wanna do that more? - Yeah, I will do it now. Now I know I can do it, I will do it. - There's no feeling like that, like in front of people live and they're just, you know. - Here in that laugh is, I've never done heroin, but imagine that's what it's like to do, to get that hit. And I want that back. That was like the biggest rush that I've felt in a long time. - And are you thinking about doing that as a happy hour brand? - I think I'll do a happy hour show, whatever that may be, but then I also wanna do a Jack Deane or Jack Mate standup show. I've got loads and loads of standup bits written down. I've got notepads and Macbooks full of jokes. - There's nothing like it, there's nothing like the real world. We get kind of lost in the digital world, there's like content creators or whatever, but. Last night and the last three nights at the podium have been the most like, nothing has made me feel as alive as that. So anyway, Israel, I don't normally say this, but fuck it, you know Israel was here yesterday, so you know the questions from him.

Previous Guest'S Inquiry

The last guests question (01:30:46)

Usually we don't tell people who the questions from. But Israel Adasanya wrote a question for you. - Okay. - I don't mind, this is the goat of fighting. This is the goat. - Yeah. - He wrote a question for you. He wrote, and you could answer this with total honesty, that's the only rule here. You could answer it with detail. He said, "How are you truly feeling?" Content. I was gonna say happy, but I still have some issues, I need to iron out. So I'm content, and I feel privileged to be where I am. That's what I'll say. You probably wanted a better answer, but there we go. So where you getting? - Perfect. Thank you so much. - Thank you, Steve. - Thank you for your time, and I'm so glad we finally got to do this, 'cause you've been an inspiration for me. I think, essentially, because of your willingness to be so open and honest with things, and I don't think you'll ever see the impact that that openness has on thousands, hundreds of thousands of millions of people, it's like, I think more people need to find within themselves to do that, because, as you've said, today, it's liberating for you. Like, the therapy of just being able to say it, kind of lifts the weight, but it also lifts the weight for everybody listening, and so I applaud you for that, and your self-awareness about the journey you've come on as a creator, as a man, in your maturity. So thank you, it's a pleasure to sit here, and thank you for the inspiration. - So thank you, mate, means a lot, and thank you for having me on the show. It's a great show, so yeah, let's do mine, and we'll speak about your favourite sandwich. - Let's go do it.