Jamil Qureshi: "Talent Isn't Enough" How To Guarantee Success | E61 | Transcription
Transcription for the video titled "Jamil Qureshi: "Talent Isn't Enough" How To Guarantee Success | E61".
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And this is why Tiger Woods keeps working. This is why Warren Buffett keeps working. It's why Richard Branson keeps working. The only way in which businesses or people will become successful and truly perform to their optimum is an amazing question. That's probably the best question I've ever been asked. Jim I'll thank you for joining me today. It's a pleasure to have you here so early in the morning. I typically on this podcast will won't introduce people because I'll do a little bit of a pre-introduction, but your background and the work you've done, specifically with high performance people and successful people, is so compelling and fascinating that I feel like I want you to introduce yourself. And I read through your bio multiple times. It was deeply inspiring. And I think without an introduction, everything we talk about from here, without the perfect introduction, which I feel like only you'll give, everything we talk about from here on, might not have the context it needs to have. So who is Jamil Krashe? I'm a performance coach and psychologist. So I've spent my time working with some very good sports teams and very good business teams. Some successful people. And I guess what I do is I help people cultivate a mindset for success. So I always say that for us to act differently, we need to think differently. We're going to create different behaviors, different actions that's about creating different thoughts first. So I guess what I do more than anything else is help people change their mind. So I always say there's new opportunities and new possibilities that will come from new perspectives.
Understanding Personal Development And Ambition
Who is Jamil Qureshi? (01:37)
So a lot of my time is spent working with people not to give them new skills, but more to allow them to understand the skills that they've already got and then create a perspective for them to use it differently. So as a performance coach, I think everyone can be better. Everyone can perform better. It's just a matter of trying to create a mindset, the attitude. I guess some of the precursors to those particular performance, which are which are beneficiary to which have benefit to them. And so you said that everybody has the skills and I, you know, I see that in a lot of my friends, I see that they have a lot more sort of natural capabilities than they've managed to sort of give the world through their actions. If someone has an ambition to be something, if they have the ambition to be, you know, a sports star, I know you've worked with a lot of athletes and you've worked with business people or they want to start a business, what you tend to see it and what I tend to see in my inbox is a lot of people with intention, but there seems to be something preventing that intention from turning into action or like behavior into an achievement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that you're turning ambition into achievement is the key because, you know, most people will have good intentions. Most people will be wishing and hoping to be better, but there's a big difference between wishing and hoping and believing and executing upon it. So I think that the people who genuinely execute on it probably want it more for a start at a monastic. No one's ever wandered around the bottom of a mountain and then simply found themselves at the top. And it does take that determination, the resilience, it does take the ability to execute upon ideas to drive success. So I think the key is the desire, which is fueled by having a purpose, a mission, a vision towards what that end goal should look like. A lot of people can't quite, they say one thing, they say that their purpose is to go to the gym. Yeah, for example, we all say one thing and do the other. Yeah. And why is that? Because it's sometimes hard to distinguish with someone, whether that's their real desire or whether they're kind of like virtue signaling to themselves that they want to be something or, you know, they want to start that business or become an entrepreneur, be, you know, get a six pack.
Ambition into action (03:38)
But then their actions show that quite a different story. So I always wondered that with my, some of my friends, I always think, are they, do they actually want that? Or are they just? It's very easy to say that this is what I'm after, much harder to do it. And I think one of the reasons why is because we have to invest, we self invest. So we probably want to be kids at school who are great footballers at 14, 15, you think, you know what, they're going to make it, they're just brilliant, they're going to make it, or great track athletes at 12, and you just think, they're special, but they don't make it. And the reason why they don't make it is they don't self invest. So the people who make it are the ones who will get up on a rainy Friday morning, get up on a rainy Saturday morning to go on practice, whilst their mates are in bed. The ones who will practice on a Friday night when they're mates around drinking. And so talent is not enough. At a mu-need talent plus teachability. So talent plus the ability to be open-minded at agile in our thinking, to commit to practice and turn that practice into something which develops our talent even further. So there's lots of people with talent and business, lots of people with talent in sport. But I guess that we need to be open-minded enough to invest in how we practice our talent that becomes successful. So there's no substitute for practice. I get lots of golfers who say to me, "Yeah, can you make me better?" And the number one golfer in the world will practice more than any amateur. And their lies are true. We need to apply ourselves in a particular manner. And so we need to be practical about how we exercise our talent.
Give yourself purpose (05:30)
You create good feedback loops to understand what we're doing. You gain better personal introspection and self-awareness to allow us to use our talents differently. How do you give someone that purpose though? I'm trying to think, so we know practices like so incredibly important to master something. But I guess my question is, how would you give someone that motivation? Because I guess you can't give someone purpose. A lot of us spend so much of our lives trying to motivate people, right? To motivate friends, families, siblings, whatever it might be. And I'm wondering if there's a thing we can do as like loving friends or whatever to give someone that kick. Yeah, so I'm going to cover the points, I guess, on that. In regard to discovering purpose, it can't be done for someone. So I always said purpose is never achieved. It's attained on a daily basis. So the mistake that people make with purpose is they confuse it with an end goal. So here's my purpose. I have this vision statement of what they're seeking to, you know, achieve or create, whatever it might be. I get practical and tangible about it. But purpose isn't that. Purpose is achieved on a daily basis. Sorry, it's never achieved. It's attained on a daily basis. And this is why Tiger Woods keeps working. This is why Warren Buffett keeps working. It's why Richard Branson keeps working. It's because it's never achieved. It's attained on a daily basis. So I think that, you know, we need to find something which is purposeful to us. And then we need to lose ourselves to it on a regular basis. So once we start to become more purpose driven and express ourselves in a particular way, I would say being a good colleague, being a good business leader, being a good sports person is not seeking to impress. It's about seeking to express and be ourselves in the context of our work. So once people can find that within themselves, then I think they can direct their energy and their focus in a particular way and become much more purpose driven in how they go about their daily activities. But you can't give someone that purpose. It has to be theirs. And I think life is about timing. I think some people find that very late. Some people find that very early and it makes no difference. We're all individuals. And Magata helping other people make change. We're almost too quick to go towards behaviours.
The precursor to change (07:49)
So we tell people to be different all the time. Tell our team members you should be more collaborative guys. And guys need to be more innovative and tell our children to keep their rooms tidy. So we're constantly talking to people about behaviours. Say to our friends that you should give up smoking or be healthier, whatever it might be. The only way in which you change actions is by changing thoughts. So we think and then we feel and then we act. That's how we work. So if you're constantly working on actions, we're telling people to be different. And this is why New Year's resolutions fail. From tomorrow I'll be different. Start doing this. I'm going to stop doing that. We start talking about actions and behaviours. We need to go back to the precursor of all our actions, which is our thoughts. So the anyway, which you genuinely drive commitment rather than compliance when it comes to change in your team, in your friends, in yourself, is by changing the words and pictures in your head or their head to drive different feelings and different actions. There's a little tip which I sometimes give leaders. And so I say to leaders, never say to your team, you're going to make a change. You say to your team, you're going to make a change. They won't like it. Say to your team, I'd like to try an experiment. They'll all be on board with it and we'll give that a go. That's okay. So even just a difference in language. They'll allow someone to think differently or make them feel differently and hopefully therefore choose to act in a different manner. And how would I get someone to change their thoughts? So there's the people that you want in but aren't in mind. I think the best way is gamification. What holds people in place is what they believe to be true. And so people will sit around a boardroom table and they'll discuss strategy. And I'll say that we can do this, but we can't do that. And they'll have a viewpoint on budgets on consumer buying behaviors, on compliance and governance. And that's what holds us in place. So what we need to do is break free of some of the parameters that we think are in the way. So if we got people around a boardroom table and say, look, guys, let's just this strategy piece that we're going to talk about. Let's imagine we got an unlimited marketing budget for it. If we had an unlimited marketing budget for it, I know we haven't, but if we had, what would we be doing? How would we be doing it? If we had no marketing budget, what would we be doing? Now, what we're doing here is that we are helping people to move outside the mental tram lines that we all operate under and the habitual thinking. So let's ask them what if questions, Adam, can you imagine that, you know, a life if you weren't smoking? Adam, what would it look like? Adam, what would you be doing today if you weren't smoking? What would you spend your money on that you save and cigarettes? Adam, just play the game of what if. So let's break free of some of the things which are holding people in place by, not by conflict, not by arguing and debate in a confrontational manner, but finding some common ground and working from there. And a common ground is let's play a game.
The danger of assumptions around passion (10:45)
And you said there, you know, about people finding that purpose in their lives. We hear this phrase a lot, which is find your passion. And I almost feel that it's in many respects quite harmful because that question is kind of loaded. It assumes a singular passion for a start. It assumes that you can discover it like an Easter egg. And then, and also, the context in which that question usually sits in, it implies that once you find it, then it's, you know, then it's the, the, it's a can of unlimited like happiness and orientation forever. And then that's yours. And it, I just feel like sometimes language can be harmful because it, it simplifies very complex things and sometimes multifaceted plural things, you know, so I wondered if that, that phrase, find your, find your passion was something you, you felt similar about? Yeah, I do. I mean, it's true that passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential. So, you know, people are passionate and engaged in a business, they can direct their energy in a worthwhile and meaningful manner. So, so it's, it's worthwhile, but you're right. At a, but you know, there's a big difference between passion, big difference between happiness and joy. Some are in the moment, I don't know, I think joy is in the moment. I don't think happiness is something that we continually, continually adjust towards. You know, passion can be a significant multiplier of human potential, particularly in the workplace. So, it does have a place, it is something which is useful to understand. And it ultimately, it always comes down to personal introspection and self-awareness for me. And I think that, we need to work harder at understanding ourselves. And when we are constructing a mindset, which is conducive to performance. So, we optimize our potential when we're in a particular state of mind. And that state of mind might be passion, it might be relaxation, it might be enthusiasm, might be enjoyment. But we need to almost get to know ourselves and know that there are certain things which enable us to do others. At once we work backwards and understand what that looks like, maybe we can gain some more consistency. I say to a lot of sports people, and to a lot of business people that consistency of mind gives you consistency of play. And I'm convinced of it. In a more consistent, we can be in our thinking. We understand the building blocks, the component parts, the success. Yeah, the more success we can have. And how does one establish consistency of thought? Because I completely agree with that. I completely agree. I've seen it in my own life. When I've been consistent with my thinking, I've managed to perform the same habits every day. But then sometimes I'll lose consistency in my thoughts because I lose it attachment or sort of my anchor with my why. And I've talked a lot on this podcast over the last couple of weeks about this realization I've had this year with the gym, which was every year, February, March, I was incredibly motivated to go, fired up, trying to look good for summer. And then obviously, once you look good and summer has ended, it's almost like you've lost your anchor, right? So like you get into September. And the why which made you go into think consistently every day has been evaporated. And I can't get myself to go to the gym in October. You're looking great shape for it. This was the year I realized. This was the year I realized. This is the year I bucked the trend for the first time in my life. Okay. I realized that I thought to myself every single year, I do it for this period. And then I stop. And they're two different people. August, Steve and October, Steve don't know each other. They're like, you know what I mean? They're like twins that were separated at birth. And so this was the year where I realized what I was doing and why I was losing my motivation. So I thought, fuck it, you know, I'm going to anchor my why to something a bit more long term and without a timeline. So I said to myself, listen, I persuaded myself for all the reasons why I want to be healthy and view my life as one season. And that's what's allowed me to persevere. And I got a bit pissed off with myself.
How people become more consistent (14:56)
I thought, you really like that, like, you're that vain and you're like, you know, but so. Yeah. Do you know, I mean, I always think that consistency of mind comes from understanding the intrinsic quality of our decision-making processes. And I say that a lot to people in sport and in business. So, you can make a good decision and have a really bad outcome. You can make a bad decision and have a good outcome. And this is my work with leadership teams who have confused luck for genius. They're a really bad decision. They've got a great outcome. Markets have changed, competitions done something, something's just worked in their favor. So it's really important for us to not judge our decision-making by our outcomes. And we often do. So we'll say this is a good decision because it resulted in this. Or this is a bad decision, it resulted in that. And we can only understand the outcome retrospectively. So it's wrong to measure our decisions by the outcomes. And we need to go back to how we made a decision in the first place. And once we start to understand the intrinsic quality of our decision-making process, we can become more consistent in how we make decisions and therefore have more control over those outcomes. So I think that, you know, two things. I think that, and we'll use you as the example here, Steve, that consistency of mind will come from knowing how we make decisions. I don't understand that we put our weight into evidence, how much we use prejudice and bias and opinion, whatever it might be. But let's understand how we make decisions. And in that way, we can be consistent in how we apply our logic and thinking and feeling, try and determine some best outcomes. And then the other thing, as you've just positioned, is reframing. Let's stand back and create some time and space to understand why we do things and why we don't do things. Now, I always say that the people are most successful, and I've had a pleasure of working with six sports people who got the number one in the world. I can guarantee you, one thing I had in common was that they never made big changes, and it was small changes. So I'm a big, big believer in the one degree of change. If you take two parallel lines and you move one by one degree, it may not seem much at first. But it's a really big difference to assume where you start and where you end up. So everyone's trying to make a dramatic change, I see change from tomorrow, I'm going to be different. I think it's about doing something a little bit more than what we've been doing at hand a bit more consistently. And then the other thing with these people who obtained what I call super-achievements, so they did really, really well, is that it actually worked on their strengths. I started to understand what was good about them and do that some more. So we think to be better as human beings, I think it would be better as a business or a team of people, we need to fix our weaknesses. I'm not sure that's true. I actually think it's more about understanding our strengths and playing to them. So I've actually worked with teams before in business and in sport who have actually weakened the strengths by trying to strengthen a weakness. If you think about it, it's ridiculous. And actually, we can do strength by trying to strengthen a weakness. We need to be careful. So I think understanding what's good about us, understanding where our behaviors come from in regard to the thinking before it and then reframe in some of those words and pictures. And I guess that's what you've done with your gym example is change some of the words and pictures in your head to therefore feel differently, which has resulted you in acting differently. Yeah. And I really, I was valuing intensity over consistency. Intensity wasn't sustainable. So I was going through the sound of like the gym two times a day. I was starving myself, like eating things that I didn't want to necessarily eat. And the consistency came from being a bit more realistic with myself, being like, you know, if you miss the day of gym, it doesn't matter. You don't have to perspective. Yeah. Perspective, isn't it? And I think, you know, it's funny because again, so many small people I work with, business people who will lose perspective, they'll lose a tournament and it's dreadful. You know, when a tournament, I've made it, you know, it's just turning point for me. You know, they win a big contract, you know, in business. And you know, this is us now, we're set up, you know, well, they, well, they lose a contract and life has never been so dreadful. But I think that we need a better perspective on things. So there are ability to think more long term, a term to be more forgiving, you know, to understand with more reality at what's good and what's not so good is probably the way forwards. And in terms of responsibility, it's a, it's a topic that's fast. Consistency is a topic I've been so fascinated about over the last year, as I've reflected and done, has been sort of introspective about the things I've been able to achieve, whether it's getting millions of followers on social media, whether it's growing my business or going to the gym.
It seems that the very ironically consistent theme across all of them was consistency. It was being able to do perform X habit for a long period of time. And then you have that the eighth wonder of the world shows up and things start compounding in your favor very quickly, usually. But the other term that I've been fascinated with is responsibility. And as I've, I started out as an 18 year old kid, dropped out of university, disowned by my parents, no money at all. And the one of the things that I noticed as I look back on 18 year old Steve versus a lot of other people that I see that are living in the same shit hole area I was living in and stealing pizzas like I was stealing them, was they don't take responsibility for their situation. They kind of see themselves as a victim of the situation they're in. Whereas when I was in that situation, not only did I not view it as my destination, I was literally taking photos of the, the nothingness in my fridge and the how dire my life was because in my mind, and I started keeping this diary on Facebook, which I really randomly wrote in my diary that a TV company had asked me to keep this because I didn't actually know how to tell my own diary that I thought I was going to show the world this someday. I didn't see it as my, my destination and I took full responsibility of my circumstance. It wasn't anyone's fault but my own and I was going to change it. But then I, one of the things that makes me concerned about our generation and about certain political narratives and certain themes I see on the internet is an, like an, an avoidance of responsibility for your life and the, the default to blame someone else. And I'll be honest, it's something I see more in the Western world than I do in the African village I was born in. Yeah. You know, so wanting to know free from you, like what role responsibility plays in people's outcomes. Okay. That's a big one. You're, you're promising me some easy questions. No. So, responsibility is huge. It's just massive. It's, it's, it's one of the, it's one of the pre-determinants of successful outcomes is our ability to take ownership and accountability. So circumstance and situation push them, pull us in different directions on a daily basis. The world is complex. It's uncertain. It's unpredictable. All of those things. The people who perform best have huge levels of response ability and ability to respond to those circumstances and situation, no matter what they are, to drive the best outcomes or opportunities. So I always say that it is a circle of concern, water cooler conversations, the stuff that's going on around us, circumstance, situation, incidents and accidents. Then it's a circle of influence. And the circle of influence is where we make choice. That's what it's about. So responsibility is all about choice for me. I absolutely guarantee you now that that, that circumstance, the situation is not a predictor of success. And because we know of people who are born into privilege, they're great role models, had good access to opportunity to wealth. They had good guidance and good support. And they ended up dying heroin addicts in prison. We know some people born with a physical disadvantage. Now, the lack of good role models, the lack of guidance, lack of support, lack of opportunity, they grew up to be some of the most successful people who have ever walked this earth. So it proves beyond doubt that attitude is more important than intelligence or facts. And I genuinely believe that to be true in all areas of high performance, that attitude is more important than intelligence or facts. I always say, give me I will over IQ. Any one of my teams, and rather I will over IQ, is high technical expertise. I'm talking about the Western world at the moment. High technical expertise is no longer as valuable as it used to be. And the reason why high technical expertise is no longer as valuable as it used to be, is because we can Google things. That's why. So knowing a lot isn't where your success is going to come from. It's not what you know, which is important. It's how you think about what you know, and how you bring it to life with your character and personality to determine the best outcomes or opportunities. So I genuinely believe that the only way in which businesses or people will become successful and truly perform to their optimum is taking full accountability and ownership. We need to almost move away from circumstance and situation, which is a distraction. So it might not be realized that our success is dependent upon us, and not on situation the better. And because the world is so unpredictable, I need to simply learn to dance on a shifting carpet. Not see the rug being pulled from under our feet. Life is a game of continual adjustment. And it doesn't matter what happens, it's how we react and respond to it to determine those best opportunities or outcomes. And I think that it's funny because the Ministry are working with a lot of businesses and on culture, on team, people's strategies. And the focus on responsibility has never been higher. Yeah, mainly because we've been asked to stay apart. People are having to determine their own work schedules. People have to determine their own working week. They're going to have to take responsibility for driving the best outcomes, and whilst they're not surrounded by team or working directly with a leader. So it's been a great call for responsibility. I wonder where, then, in answer to your question, and I don't know the answer to this. I wonder whether we'll see a better shift or greater shift towards more responsibility in the Western world. Because I agree with you. I think that many of us won't see ourselves as a victim of circumstance and situation, and not necessarily see the beauty in the chaos because of it. You talk there about the internet as well, and the power of the internet, and how that's been a bit of a leveler, which is a really wonderful thing, I think.
SelfDriven Learner (25:10)
How important is it, do you think, when you think about the successful people you've worked with, to be a self-driven learner beyond school? Do you see specifically in this, sort of, up-ish lawns of business, the ones that the people that are most successful are proactive, sort of, self-driven? I think it's true. I think that, I would say that our only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster and better than your competitors. And you think about that for a business, you think about that for a leader, you know, you think about it as a sportsman, it's probably true, isn't it? Our only sustainable competitive advantage is to learn faster and better than anyone else. Two-parallelign line. And I think that, you know, I think that, I think that, how can we learn faster and better, yeah, if we're not proactive lifelong learners? And so, you know, learning isn't necessarily about being taught. You don't necessarily need teachers. It's a strife for greater curiosity. Yeah, I think curiosity is worth more than creativity at the moment, but it's a strife for greater curiosity. It's matri-be-nopem minded. It's a matter of being agile in our thinking, so we can deploy resource to opportunity as it becomes visible. It's about self-discovery. So, it's about a variety of things which are based, not necessarily upon traditional learning, but more in a way in which we can open our mind up to experimentation and feedback, you know, and understanding ourselves differently. And I think the best leaders, you know, have this ability to, you know, reimagine, repurpose, reinvent. I don't think they're beholden to a particular or wedded to a particular mindset.
Fear of experiment (27:03)
But that's, for a lot of people, that's terrifying. The thought of experimentation and being agile and reinvention. I've seen that in my own business. I've seen over the years, I was known as being the guy that would walk in. I think a lot of business leaders are walking in the morning and be like, we're going in a different direction. Everyone come in this room. We're going to launch this part of our business and we're going to take a, we're going to experiment. And I would often say to our team that experimentation is like at the heart of all of our strategy. It's like why, especially as a social media company, where our platforms check social media changes every day, there's new updates pushed by Facebook and Instagram every day. So our company slogan was keeping brands at the forefront of what's possible, which meant that we had to be agile. But I'd often see people in my organization that were really against change, fearful of it. They would take, they would resist it. I wonder how you, if it's, I always wondered why it was. Some of them had levels of imposter syndrome. So they were just trying to get a hang of the role they were in and not do more. I wonder what your thoughts were on that. I think people don't like change because they don't know what it results in. I think that's one of the things. So let's take, let's take a move in your desk. I sat at a desk for 10 years in a particular office and you said, you know what, you need to, you need to move down the corridor. I'm going to make a move at a, people weren't like that, the slightest. If you said to them that, you know, you need to move down the corridor, you know, we really appreciate the move. We're going to give you a million pounds at the end of the year because of it. They'll be trotting off with their potted plant in hand. I'm guaranteed. So I think that because people don't necessarily know what it results in, why should we invest in doing something different, which is uncomfortable because it goes against our mental tram lines, our habitual thinking. So now you're asking me to compromise my patterns and I don't know what for. I know what's going to result in. It could be good. It could be bad. So therefore, I'm not sure I want to go to the trouble of investing in this change when I haven't determined you know, to resolve it. As human beings, we like patterns. That's good and it's bad. It works in our favor sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't. Then we like patterns and so we like consistency and we compartmentalize and I'm going to viewpoint on the world. And in fact, if you look at, you know, the office is a good example. The office is a great example of keeping people in patterns. You've got your phone on your desk here, you've got your computer there, coming at a certain time, working a certain way, taking a lunch at a certain time. So we're conditioned to work in a way which is reflective of the consistency, which takes out variance in business. So you think that management has been around for about 100 years. And the reason why management's been around for about 100 years is to reduce variance at a time because then you can get, then you can scale. So business has got bigger, a lot bigger, 100 years ago, because of the ability to keep people habitual. So because we become conditioned to do this, and everything around us keeps us in a pattern that we quite like being in. As soon as you start to move outside of that, there's a level of discomfort. So I guess leaders can allow people to make change at an embrace change. I guess there's a few points. One, it's always best if it's co-warthful and co-created. So let's involve people in what that change looks like. It's always best if we look at our organizations or teams as a community, instead of as a team or an organization. At the moment, communities are out performing bureaucracies and hierarchies when it comes to maximizing human talent. So let's try and form a community. Let's come also and co-create. And then let's have a look at peer recognition, peer coaching, peer challenge. It doesn't need to be a top down thing done to people. It can't be something which can happen from the inside out. It's meaningful when something is endorsed by others that you feel an affinity with.
Steve Jobs & Elon Musk (31:04)
Sure. When you read about the Steve Jobs of the world and the Elon Musk of the world, they seem to buck a lot of the trends that you hear in management coaching. They seem to be very authoritarian. I was reading about from Steve Elon Musk's biography and their stories of him just calling someone into the office and saying, "How much does it cost to do this? They'll say 10 million. He'll say, do it for 5,000 and do it within 30 days." And they'll go away feeling puzzled, but they'll get it done. He has this culture of intensity. And when you start, he says to the teams that this will be the hardest you've ever worked in your life, but it'll be the most worthwhile, but it'll be the hardest you've ever worked. And then Steve Jobs as well, I've heard the stories of how he built the company at Medlow Park. And he seemed like the antithesis of what you would read about in a business book. But obviously, these are two of the most successful entrepreneurs the world has ever seen. So I'm trying to appreciate the like, how they've achieved their success by being so different from what all the business books say. From all accounts, there are holes. You know what I mean? Yeah. I think a couple of things, I guess that you find what works for you. I think what they have on their side is they have a really big purpose statement. It's a really big mission. So there are lots of companies with mission statements, but very few on a mission. And I guess that when it comes back to the point I made earlier that passion being a significant multiplier of human potential, I guess that these people have the ability to engage people. So to tell a story, attempt to inspire and motivate. So I guess that, you know, there is a, there's no doubt lots of logic and term, there is no doubt lots of rationality, which is used in their management leadership style. You know, but what you're describing to me and the people that you're describing, I think you can really get behind something that someone passionately believes in and is something which is worthwhile and purposeful, yet on such a grand scale. So I think when they're talking about things which will change humanity, I think it's possible for, you know, us to be swept along and I'm on that particular vision. So maybe it does mobilize people in a different manner because of who they are, what they believe in and what they're trying to achieve. Yeah, no, that's probably true. I mean, can you think about, I think you can example, I give you is Jay JFK. Well, yeah, I mean, I mean, JFK, do you think that JFK is speech about to put a man on the moon? You should read it actually rather than but look at it. It's a rubbish speech when you read it. The reason, the reason why is that there's no logic to it until there's no rationality. So he says we put a man on the moon and the reason why he gives that we should put a man on the moon is because it's hard and not easy. Which is a rubbish reason to do anything. It's hard, not easy. That's why we're going to do it. So, but not only did they end up doing this, it mobilized the whole nation behind the space race and the whole nation behind science in fact. And the reason why was that because logic was low, inspiration was high. It was such a, it was such a literally a moonshot. It was literally such a big goal and so ambitious, so expansive. You know, people bought into the dream and I wonder whether and I don't know, examples you gave at Steve Jobs and Elon Musk, what other people just buy into that dream, you know, they buy into the what they, not necessarily what they're seeking to do, but what they're seeking to create. And maybe there's a lesson for all of us who manage teams that maybe it's not about trying to get people to do stuff. It's about people to create stuff. It's that, you know, to be part of something which is worthwhile and meaningful and sell a big vision, tell the right story and engage people emotionally. You know all of this stuff about psychology, I've got a few books. You've read a few books. We've lost Tuesday. You know a lot of stuff. Tell my clients. Yeah, when people come across people like you, they think that you've got all the answers and because you've got all the answers or at least an answer to most things, they think that you must live a life of sort of perfect decision making. Do you know what I mean? Comptless children have the worst worn shoes. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, what are you like at living these things that you're aware of? Speaking of performance, one of the things that's integral to performing at the highest level is nutrition.
It's something that I guess I took a long time to finally believe, but that is why having fuel as a sponsor for this podcast is such a privilege because there was a time in my life, especially when I was early in my business career where I wasn't getting the vitamins, the minerals, and I wasn't having a sort of nutritionally complete diet. I was, if you look at some of my old photos, I was definitely lacking protein as well. And a lot of that, maybe it was an excuse, was because I was busy. And when I discovered Hule, when a guy called Mike Walt passed me in the office wearing a Hule t-shirt and shaking a little bottle, and upon my curiosity of asking what was in that and why he was drinking it, it really, really did change my life. And so here's what I want to do. You know, this particular podcast today has been about high performance and mindset and how we how we become our best selves and how we teach our teams to become our best selves. I'm going to give away this week five boxes of your big boxes, right? All you've got to do if you want one of those boxes is hit the subscribe button on this podcast wherever you're listening, whether you're on YouTube, or whether you're on the podcast or wherever you might be, and leave a review. If you leave a review on the podcast or just keep your Instagram handle or your Twitter handle in there so I can find you. But if you're listening on YouTube, then please just leave a comment down below. And any comment you leave enters you into the competition. And I want to know what you think of Hule. So as I say, I say it with full honesty, it's changed my life. And I really believe that those of you who aren't getting your sort of all your minerals and proteins and all the good stuff, I think it can change yours too. What do you like at living these things that you're aware of?
Living by your own advice (37:19)
Yeah, rubbish. Next question. Right, that's the end of the podcast. And the reason why is that a two things that one, we're all human, because we're all human, we're all prone to make mistakes in our doing and our thinking. And I think that being better never stops. So therefore, we've got to continually adjust. We don't find hints, tips, gimmicks that make us better. And then we just apply them regularly and it works. So I guess there's a level of inconsistency which is reflective of the fact that I'm a human being who tries to do better. Do you have been an example? On a regular basis. I'm an example. Well, you're aware of the truth, but you're just not. On the amount of time. So as you know, I've been a guest speaker for 10 years now. So when the world is normal and sane, I would go off four days a week anywhere in the world. So twice a week of the broad, I'd speak to a few hundred people. I'd stand on stage and do an hours talk about performance psychology and I'd come off. So I did that for 10 years, four times a week. But I'd often come off and think, cause that ain't good. I say to the stake, it's take a little bit of come up to me and say that, you know, that was really brilliant. It's just exactly what we're after. I was happy. Oh, yeah, it's exactly what we're after. But you sort of covered the brief. Yeah, yes. Yeah, absolutely. It's exactly what I was. I said, well, send me an email. Let me know the feedback. And then you get, you know, maybe even get some feedback, which is like, you know, you get sort of scored out of five. And then it's like 97% five. Now, I'd be scouring for the threes and twos and think that, you know, there's like 500 people is that sort of five people to put two and said, that was all right. I just think, fuck up. But, but I'd be wondering why, what did I do wrong? What was really, it's unbelievable. It's unbelievable. The amount of times I sat in front of an audience and, you know, maybe 300 people there and someone with their arms folded like that. And they're just like, I think he doesn't look engaged. You know, so out of 300 people, there's something that's most people writing down things on Nodin or smiling or whatever it is. It's amazing how many times I can pick out the one person who doesn't seem to be enjoying it. So I think, I think, I think it's a couple of things that I'm always prone to, you know, we actually, we wait quite highly to stuff which we think we're not doing well. You know, we're trying to fix what's not right about us, what's not good, you know, what we should have done, what we could be doing. I think I'm still prone to that in term rather than sort of enjoying the, you know, the success that I've had, really. What about things in your personal life in terms of like, like, you know, health and like being a parent and like, yeah, pursuing goals and ambitions you have on your personal life. What about those things? Yeah, I think that, you know, health wise, I need to take some advice from you. We should lie down and tell you all about it. I keep, I keep meaning to, I keep meaning to run more and go to gym more. I don't, there's always an excuse. So, you know, under most demotivated motivational speaking or, last pretty shit. I don't, so, so yeah, so I think I need to work out more. I tell you the one thing it gets me, I got three children, I got four, four year old twin girls and a nine year old boy, is that, you know, as a psychologist, and you know, I'm pretty good at that.
Parenting And Personal Growth Challenges
The Challenge of Being a Parent (40:34)
I've sat in front of some sort of pretty difficult clients, some really difficult clients, you know, some people at the top of their profession, and I'm, and I'll fucking screwed and they're thinking, and, you know, and, you know, I've dealt with it. Four year olds and nine year olds just do me. I can't, you know, I just, you try and apply psychology to it and it doesn't work. And so, the level of frustration that comes about in regard to being a parent, again, this is my point that, you know, all human beings, that, so, so, you know, you try, you try all the influence, persuasion and negotiation, and all the psychology and all the techniques that you know, that it doesn't work on four year olds. Doesn't work on them. So funny, the guest that was here yesterday, Joe Rick, said the exact same thing. He said, I'm like a, you know, calm guy, but he's just said, you know, when I, my daughter, I'll tell her that I want to just put her down so I can clean the counter and she just won't be here. The irrationality of it is what does me. Yeah. And so, you know, it's funny because I've had some really good sports people sit in front of me and say, you know, give me, you know, if you've got something that makes me better then, and then you give them something and they go away to come back a week later and they say, I tried that. It doesn't work. If you've got anything else, it's a bit like going to the gym, working out for half an hour, going home, looking in a mirror and say, it's crap that. I don't like the gym. I'm selfish. It works all my way. And so, and this is my point that, that, you know, it's not about tools, gimmicks and hints. It's about striving every day to be better than what you were yesterday. I worked with a golfer. He was very, very good, really good. And, you know, literally top 10 in the world. He spent a whole year at, and, with just a piece of paper in his pocket, and he used to play with his piece of paper in his pocket. And it used to just say, what did I enjoy today and what did I learn today? I've seen two questions on it. And then in the evening, he just answered those questions. So, whole year, forget the numbers. I'm not going to look at numbers. I'm just going to answer this question. And so, I've had a good day. I've had a bad day. It doesn't make any difference. I'll just answer that question, these questions. What did I enjoy today and what did I learn today? The best year we ever had had, just answering those questions. Yeah. And in a way, there almost needs to be more simplicity to not using tools and techniques, not to try and apply psychology to a four-year-old. But to just try and consistently enjoy and learn on a daily basis. So, I guess in regard to, like, I'm still prone to say, God, I need to get running.
Adopting a Consistent Mindset of Striving to Improve (43:07)
I've been drinking all week. I need to do some exercise at the weekend. And, again, it's falling into the trap of the, I've been at the mercy of the shoulds and musts, rather than thinking about, what am I enjoying? What am I learning? What surprised me at this week? Where am I experimenting? What have I discovered this week about myself? And, it must be starting to talk like that. Maybe you can apply more consistent thinking and, therefore, change I'll do in. So, you want to run? Let's use that as an example. Yeah. I need to run more. Definitely. I need to run more. Why did you need to run more? Do you know, because I want to improve my heart and lung health, I think. I think I've got to donate. It's all right for you, because you're young and fit. But I think I've got to an age now where I realize there's more of an importance on exercise. So, before I could just, I'll just do it anyway. I have to pick up running every now and then I'll be able to run. I get to the gym every now and then I'll have a great time at the gym for a couple of weeks and then I'll skip it. But now it's different. Now I feel, as though I could be fitter, it should be. I think this year has also sort of illuminated that for everybody, the importance of health. I think it's medicinal. It has for me to make me think about my health a lot more. Not for the vein reasons that young guy would think about their health because they're trying to get laid or something. But because I want to live longer and I want to have more memories than those kinds of things. Do you do near IEL? He wrote a book called "Indistractable." I'm not familiar with it. I'm Reddit. You're probably familiar with the book. Yeah, I know the name. He said this quote to me, which really changed my life and I think about it all the time. When I find myself procrastinating from doing something or whatever, he said that typically we think we're humans that are seeking pleasure, but we're actually living in the avoidance of discomfort. When I think about the things that I procrastinate again, so when it's six seven o'clock in the evening, you think, "I can't be bothered to go," whatever, it does ring true to me that I'm actually avoiding some kind of psychological discomfort. Yes. And so I now, whenever I feel myself like this weekend, I had this big project to do. I also had this talk that I had to do for my manager, Dom.
Will's Notion Around Humans Seeking Pleasure vs Avoiding Discomfort (45:12)
I found myself, then I've got the book, my book, which I had to do go through the whole book from start to finishing the day. I'm like, "Oh, fucking hell." And I'm like, "Low key finding myself." Oh, just clean the countertop because that's important. And I stopped myself. I thought you're avoiding the discomfort associated with sitting down for nine hours until six seven in the morning and doing the book. And it wasn't until I realized why that term has been this flashlight that I shine in the corner of the room where I'm hiding the thing that I don't want to do now. So I wondered if it was in regards to your running, if it's in some respect similar, you're avoiding some kind of discomfort where you can unravel the bed at the time. I'm convinced of it because running is such an unpleasant experience. It's a really good example. It can't stand it. So it's pretty absolutely right that I totally agree with you that we do go about allies trying to see moving out of that space of being uncomfortable. This is why we don't have conflict conversations in the workplace. This is why we don't challenge our own thinking. This is why we don't like change. We like to operate from a comfort zone. That's what we do. So yeah, no, I agree with you. I think because running is such an unpleasant experience for me. It's absolutely awful. I'm probably avoiding it because I just don't want the experience. Whereas riding a bike isn't so bad for me. So maybe they're for. Instead of sat there at four or five o'clock thinking, "God, I need to go running on an hour, and I really don't want to. I'll go tomorrow." Maybe what I should be saying is I need to go running on. No, you don't. Why don't you ride a bike? Get a pallet. Why don't you... Yeah, why don't you... It's got one upstairs. It changed my life. Okay. I'll have a go on it after this. But we should have done whole interviews now. I'm going to kill two birds of one's own. I hate running as well. It's like I hate the impact on my knees. I don't want to be outside to be. I'll be swerving past people. So I got the peloton. It's low resistance. It's fun. Super engaging in game-of-life because you see the data. You see everyone in the world and where they're placing. You see Jenny 55 in North Carolina is beating you. Yeah, make me feel bad. I don't want to feel bad. I hate Jenny forever. That just makes me think that's how I'm fittering and how much I hate other people who are fitter than me. But I mean, interestingly, it proves how fit you are because you said you don't like running because of your knees and swerving past people. I don't like running because I can't breathe. So you're already winning. Chicken and egg. I'll be cured if you start running.
How to Face Uncomfortable Challenges (47:50)
But on that point of psychological discomfort, how does somebody in your opinion face a challenge that they know is uncomfortable? Like, you know, to be honest, I don't want to go to the gym or do all these Zoom calls all the time. It's not like, you know, I'm not getting comfort or in pleasure out of doing two-hour Zoom calls at the moment about like, you know, biotech or whatever it is, the thing that I'm involved in. But I'm doing it. And I wanted to know in your case, what does it take someone who like doesn't want to do something because they know it's uncomfortable to say, "Do you know what? Fuck it. I'm going to do it today." Yeah. And does that go back to that point of having that like long anchor purpose? Yeah, I think it does. Mahamadali said, "I hate you every moment in the gym, but I did it so I could live the rest of my life like a champion." Yeah. And in a way, it's true, isn't it? That, you know, there are component parts. To success. And I think a two really interesting one is, and the one that most people probably relate to is failure. So people don't like to experience failure. But, you know, for example, failure is part payment towards success. So the price of success is always paid in full and in advance. The price of success is always paid in full and in advance. You can't be successful when you start making mistakes. You can't be successful and start having your two-hour Zoom calls. But, you know, in a way, you need to fail. We need to have these awful conversations. We need to kiss lots of frogs. We need to, you know, do deals which don't work. But I mean, you do all these things to enable you to be super successful. So there's lots of things that, again, it comes back to reframing. If we see it as part and parcel, stepping stone towards a greater advancement, we're probably more likely to do it. You know, if you see failure as something which is, we're trying to avoid and it's just awful and, you know, and it screams to me that I'm useless. Then we're probably going to stay within a comfort zone. You know, if we embrace failure, then we see it as part payment towards success. And then we see it as something which is an active contribution, stepping stone towards being better. Maybe we're more likely to indulge in it and not have the discomfort that we associate with it. So, you know, I feel that it is always good to think about, you know, what you think about that end goal, how that purpose, that vision, the mission, you know, what you're seeking to achieve and create. And then think about what those building blocks look like, because, you know, all great achievements are the result of many small achievements. You know, had Joe Wicks here yesterday, he wasn't super successful overnight. And he probably kissed a lot of frogs, I'm sure he talked about it. You know, his business and career and personal life went in all sorts of different directions, like ours. And, you know, it's not necessarily, as we said earlier, it's not necessarily what happens. It's our interpretation of what's happening, which will then enable us to use that as feedback towards something better. And do you find with a lot of the high performance people you've worked with, that their childhood is a definitive reason as to why they are the way they are today? I'm going to try and articulate this if I can.
Lost parents (51:08)
But I've, from speaking to guess on this podcast, and also from a bit of introspection, to be honest, I tend to think a lot of people that have extraordinary outcomes have often had some kind of extraordinary early experience. And I'll give you a couple of examples. A lot of the billionaires that I know are really, really successful people that I know cite their father's disapproval as the reason why they've always had a chip on their shoulder. And they've always strived obsessively to be enough, right? Because their father told them they weren't enough. Yeah. Have you seen that in successful people that there's the thing that makes them just a bit fucking weird is often, I think one particular instance with a friend of mine, a comment their mother made when they were four that they just can't shake. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist, so I don't delve into backgrounds in a way that maybe someone involved in psychiatry would. Yes, as a performance coach, you tend to work with how people are now, basically. And tell me about what you're thinking and doing, what you're trying to achieve. I'm also then to try and deconstruct or analyze some of the earlier experiences. So that's not my thing. Having said that though, you're absolutely right. There seems to be some sort of correlation between extreme experiences and then how people interpret or translate them. And in fact, as you're talking, I was trying to think of the book, I can't think of the book, I wish I could now. And they talk about in this book the fact that so many super successful people, politicians, actors, business people, lost parents when they were young. And as a direct correlation, believe it or not, it's a direct correlation between people losing parents when they were young and then becoming super performers, being incredibly successful. And the psychology behind it was that you learn independence. And it's almost easy. If you've got these loving, fabulous parents who hopefully many people have got, you're not as independent. Whereas if you lose a parent young, you end up doing things for yourself a little bit earlier. And so maybe going back to that responsibility, the ownership piece and having to sort yourself out, that means that people learn some of the skills which enable their talent to then be used differently in the future. But as a direct correlation, believe it or not, I wish I could tell you the real psychology and the actual piece in the book. But you just reminded me when you're talking about it. So I do think that some people do have these extreme experiences. And I think that it's almost easier to get to know ourselves and get to think about life and contextualize things. If we're experiencing things which are outside of art or I guess our normal field of vision. I resonate a lot with that. You said, you know, lose a parent. But the reason I resonated with that is because I've said multiple times on this podcast again, that when people have asked me why I was successful, I cite that when I was younger, my parents went to every in the house. And that made meant that I had to find a way to make money to feed myself. Or, you know, my mum was never in the house when I went to bed and she was never there when I woke up because she was just, she slept at her shop sometimes and my dad worked in London for six days a week, which was four hours away. And I, and it was only of the four of us and my family, the four siblings, that wasn't the case for my older siblings when they were younger or when they were my age, my mum and dad were in the house every day doing date nights together. And then when I grew up, by the age of 10, I could leave the house for three days or two days and they wouldn't actually know that I'd gone. And so that meant that I became like this sort of self-autonomous kid at like 12, 13, 14, and then started businesses at 14 and then, you know, went off to two. But you could have gone the other way as well, couldn't you? Oh, 100%. With that, you know, with that level of freedom and autonomy, but not the maturity and you know, to deal with that freedom. My friend, my best friend said to me, when I'll never forget where I stood when he said it in this take away shop, he said, Stephen, you're either going to be a criminal or a millionaire. And it was because I had that, my independence, this connection where I knew that my outcomes were going to be a direct result of my behavior. I always think of like school dinners as the perfect example. For a lot of my childhood, maybe up until the age of about nine, there was always like two quid on the counter, which was like, okay, you take that to school. And then by 10, the two quid wasn't there anymore. Yeah. So it was like waking up in the morning and being like, how am I going to eat today? I'd have to find a way. So I'd go and sell cigarettes. Or, you know, I'd like, I knew that there was cigarettes in this room upstairs, which my mum had got from Nigeria one year. So I just went to school and I was just shopping the cigarettes or chewing gum. And it was that connection I made super early that my outcomes are direct and only correlation of sort of connected to my behavior. So I resonate with that a lot. And it kind of explains the difference between four kids that grew up in the same household and one, the three of them went to university, LSE, Cambridge, whatever. And one of them dropped out of everything, got kicked out of school and became an entrepreneur. It's true, isn't it? So it's not necessarily the experience, it's how we translate that experience. Exactly. And how we channel our feeling into something which could be productive or disruptive. You could have become a criminal and a millionaire and got a job with this Tory government. You could be a front bench MP with those credentials. There's still time. I'm a millionaire criminal.
There's still a lot of time. The last thing I really wanted to ask you about was, you know, this idea of distractions. Social media has made it incredibly easy to distract ourselves. And you see, you know, teams becoming much more distracted at work because of all these screams and, you know, the digitalisation of the world and individuals. And what are, what's your thoughts on, on why we're so distracted and how to overcome it? Yeah. It's true that we aren't distracted. I think focus and concentration have to be practiced. So many things can be improved. So whether it's resilience, whether it's concentration, whether it's courage, all these things can be practiced. So many think courage, for example, I was saying courage is like a muscle, the more you exercise it, the stronger it gets. So it's possible to exercise all these things and be better at them. And I think that it's fine to be distracted because it's actually quite nice to have different stimuli and different provocation. And so we just need to choose when it's good to have that provocation and change at, and when we need to concentrate and we need to practice both. Now, here's the thing for you, Adam, is that as human beings, we don't multitask. So multitask is a lie. So for all the girls and all the women watching this, or listening to this, I'm sorry to tell you, it's not true that you don't multitask better than men. Amen. That's a lie. It's true. Amen. It doesn't happen. It's where both equally is bad. Then we're both useless at it. So what we do is we do rapid switching. So we don't multitask. We just contact switching. Exactly. This is why actually, I can't remember what it was, a couple of years ago, that the Blackberry network went down in Abu Dhabi for a weekend from Friday to Monday. Had a 48% decrease in car accidents that weekend. Really? Because as human beings, we don't multitask. You don't sort of check your text and drive well. It doesn't work as a human being. So I think that we are living in an age where it's easy to be distracted, and some of these distractions are incredibly useful. We need to come back to greater responsibility and choice. Let's choose when it's fine to do that and when it's fine not to be. And practice these levels of concentration and focus that we may need for certain tasks, but we may not for another. So I quite like times when I can sit down and read a book or absorb something or think about something and narrow my focus. Sometimes I quite like TV being on, music being on, at a phone next to me on a computer. Because I'm sometimes picking up on certain things, which for a level of creativity can be quite useful at a bit of provocation, a bit of changeability in my thinking, because I get distracted by something and come back to it. I find that as well.
Fostering Curiosity And Idea Generation
For some bizarre reason, if I go for a walk or if I go to the gym, inspiration floods into me. But when I'm sat in my office trying to think of stuff, it's almost impossible. The shower is another weird place where all my ideas seem to show up all at once. And it's like, I'm not like, it's not hyperbolic. I'm not exaggerating at all. Like if I'm sat here and I'm trying to think of something to write or whatever, I go for a walk and sometimes I put my music in, it's like non-stop. And I find that quite interesting. Because teams are often trying to think of ideas and creativity. A few say to people, where do you have your best ideas and how to ask people that question? Where do you have your best ideas? You know what else I am? When I'm walking the dog, when I'm in the shower, just about to fall off the sleep, on the commute, over breakfast. They'll come up with all recreational drugs. They'll come up with all sorts of stuff. But no one will ever say in a boardroom with some mints on the table and a jug of water. No one will ever say that. But where do we try and create ideas in a business? We get them around this boardroom table. Adam, no one ever said, don't get me wrong, you can't get your team in the shower with you. Maybe you've tried, I don't know what it's like around here. Maybe you tried. I don't know. Give yourself. That's a team meet. Bring it out. But maybe we can't do that. But we've got to find a way of trying to create a more natural environment for people to flourish. And I do say to many organisations, I say to them that you need to quick to train the people rather than fix the environment. People say, oh, I need more innovative people. I don't. We need to train them on innovation. No, you don't. Let's try and create a culture, an environment where people are free to express themselves. Probably got, we're so convergent in our thinking. We start off as divergent thinkers. We start off making really weird connections. I had a six-year-old once asked, what does the number nine smell like? Amazing question. Probably the best question I've ever been asked. We all do respect the interviewer today. I was going to say. But, you know, what's the number nine smell like? It's a great question. You know, what was the last time you heard a CEO ask that question? They don't. Children ask these divergent questions because they make the connection between two things usually unconnected. And then a good school. And the school says, why are you asking that? We're doing numbers today. Just concentrate on the numbers. And then we go from divergent thinkers to convergent thinkers. And our careers get better because of it. Our businesses get better because of it. Making simple connections, you know, marching's down. Okay, we need to do this. You know, revenue's down. Okay, we need to do that. But what do we need in today's society, in today's world? And I don't think we need convergent thinking. I think we need to move back and get into that divergent space again. And, you know, who are the most successful people, you know, at the moment? And if people are making really weird connections, people who, this is about Uber and Airbnb and all these things come from, is from people who are making a connection between two things previously unconnected because they're still divergent. So let's try and create some environments where people are free to explore, experiment, free to break some of the rules and to talk about things which are which are not easily put together. And I think that that's the best way in which we can see the opportunity and possibilities in this changing model which we're living. How do people find you? That's the best way. Yeah, I think I mean, Twitter or LinkedIn really, I don't use anything. I don't use Facebook or anything like that. So your website, you're my website. And to me, people can't take me through my website. But I use, I started using Twitter again and but LinkedIn is great for me. I can imagine. There are about 30,000 people on LinkedIn and that's really where I sort of communicate.
Where do you have your best ideas? (01:03:10)
Have you, how do you find social media just out of interest in terms of like? Do you know, I'm a bit like an alcoholic who can't get the top of the bottle. I mean, I love the idea of it. You know, I think I've got to be doing more. But I just don't, people say that you should do. Yeah, well, but you know what I'm telling you, one of the advice that I give people at the moment if it ain't broke, you should break it. Because we almost need to give up what's allowing us to be successful, to allow us to be successful. And I know it's a counterintuitive argument. It makes perfect sense to be honest. I mean, that's the definition of what innovation is, right? Yeah. It's breaking the blueprint. So I think that, you know, and again, look, it's probably like my running, isn't it? It's one of those things which are uncomfortable. So I probably don't do it. What I should do is try and find out more about social media. And then I'll have a look at your social channels after. And obviously we've got a lot of content from this. So we can send it to you in a way that will perform well if you post it. So but listen, thank you for your time today. Thank you.
Very, very generous. And it's a really inspiring conversation. That's a, I actually want to read, it's one of the few conversations where I'm like, I really need to re-listen to this again. And maybe with my notepad out and really take notes because there's so many ideas there that are really, really profound at times that I'm like, I'm trying to hold on to it. And then because you're, because you're full of them, I'm going back, I'm thinking, I'm, I'm, you know what I mean? Because there's so much intelligence condensed in such a short period of time. Very kind. No, I really mean that as well. Yeah, no. Good for the self. Obviously, no, I really mean that. I'm like, it's sometimes I have experts on that are really well studied in their field. And the things you say, as someone who's ran a multinational business with 700 employees for the last 10 years of my life, I'm like, perfect sense. And I really want to, I could unpack all of those individual topics more, but yeah, thank you. Such a pleasure to have you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.