Jesse Lingard Reveals The Problem With Man United Today & Why He Moved To Nottingham Forest | E214 | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Jesse Lingard Reveals The Problem With Man United Today & Why He Moved To Nottingham Forest | E214".


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Intro (00:00)

What was going through my head at that time? I do not know. I was drinking. Just trying to take the pain away. It's tough, man. So, that's a fantastic... Hey, that's the ball. We're cool up, man, you know, it's all big. They can have that control over you. What? People have a voice. Jesse, he asked if we could have given him a couple of days off. When things are getting settled while you're up, I'm not true. He's gonna voice your opinion. I knew I needed to leave. Do you have a suspicion while you went, Pete? Mm-hmm. You do, don't you? I can see it in your face. So, this is the whole thing, what happened? Is there a day that you look back on and you go, "That was the hardest day?" Jesse, you shit! You're not a bitch! You're getting that much abuse and I'm already down enough. I don't know if I've got to perform. I was still trying to be Jesse, like, like, I don't know, I don't know jokes and that, but, of course, it's gonna affect me. He's not done much at all this season. I'm already going through things, but you don't know about. I felt like I'm the world on my shoulders. In 2019, your mother was admitted to hospital. She couldn't really cope anymore. Did you ever figure out what the root cause of your mother's depression was? I think it's soon that you had me, to be honest. Thank you for tuning in to watch this episode. Honestly, an incredible episode, but I have to say thank you before we begin. Because we've hit a million subscribers on this channel now, and I... It's almost unthinkable. I can't, you know, I'm speaking for our entire team here when I say it's genuinely, genuinely unthinkable. Biggest privilege of my life to get to do this means the world that you guys tune in every week to listen to these episodes. Roughly 65% of you that watch this channel now subscribe to the channel, which is amazing. If you haven't yet subscribed, could you please do me a little bit of a favor? I can't tell you how much it helps this channel and how much it's helped us to pull in amazing, amazing guests and to expand everything within our operations and how it's also going to help us enable the year that's to come and all the plans we have, some huge plans which I'm going to be bringing to you very shortly. Really, really hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you for being here. Thank you for helping us reach this huge milestone of a million subscribers. Let's get on with it. Jesse.

Career And Personal Challenges

Early context (02:23)

Give me your context. What is the take me right back to when you were in those early years as you signed and joined Manchester United, I think at seven years old? What was life like if I'd been in your home, if I'd been in your surroundings, in your environment, what was life like? Um, life was good. Obviously, Mum and Dust below an early age, especially when I was born, which can make things a lot difficult. But I still had the desire, the hunger. So going training, my grandma taught me training, you know, week and week out. You know, our trials are evident, city, Liverpool. So we're going and we're driving up and down the motorway. Constantly, you know, to support me and take me to training and games. And then obviously made a decision to sign for United at nine years old. You know, we had a great team, you know, like the Pogba, Ravel, and the team. So we had a great team. I think outside of that, obviously Mum was very supportive, and my dad was very supportive. You know, football, mild. You know, so I think that support system, especially at an early age is important. Did everybody in your circle around you have high hopes for your career when you were that age, about 10, 12, 13? Did they think you were going to be a professional football player? I think my grandma did. Your granddad did? Yeah. He, I mean, was on the time of his day to take me in as a team, you know, practice. My brother will come down. My dad will come down. And we played one touch. Two-to-foot ball, you know, pretty much on a regular basis. And that's my happy place. That's where I'm most happy on a football pitch. And like I say, my granddad was, you know, very important, you know, put me into Liverpool, into city, into United on trials, because, you know, people recognized, you know, the talent, but he was there to push me. I was watching the documentary and I saw a granddad who looked, it's rare to see. I mean, one might expect a dad or a mother to be then pushy and direct and critical, but to see your granddad being that savage with you at times was quite surprising. Can you give me a flip for anybody that hasn't seen it? Can you give me a flavor of how tough he was at times? Well, he got, he got, he got a band of a couple of times. Like when I say we're 12 years old, we're playing Stoke away and he's come on the pitch after the game and said, you're not fit to wear the shirt. The granddad's a good shoe. So you're not fit to wear the shirt, non-you're fit to wear the shirt. Right. I'm thinking, like the coach is looking at me. I'm like, I'm cutting the foot. He had me on weights up 10 years old, like lifting weights, went into Maggie Knight and said to one of the coaches, Tony Reeland at the time, he said, like, you know, I'm going to get my scransing into it. Because it obviously is a power lifter for a great button. Right. So, you know, he wanted me on the weights at an early age to try and build a bit of muscle because it was always small. You kind of drove that from being a power lifter for a great button, kind of passed it down to me and mum was a gymnast. So he was kind of tough on her as well. Mum took it the wrong way because obviously she's got to be a gymnast but we're going to be so hard on her that, you know, eventually she quit on that. But it was me, you know, some games that, you know, not play the best and, you know, you're getting the car on the way home. You know, I'd say like, look, my toe was sore today. They're trying to make excuses because he's so like hard on me. But he was trying to push, like, he come from a good place, you know what I'm saying? So the reason why your mother quit gymnastics was because he was so hard on her.

Mothers depression (06:31)

Yeah, it was so, so tough on her. And obviously she didn't have really the motivation to carry on. Probably she went strong enough to carry on that. But, you know, for me, I always knew what to be a footballer. So, you know, having my granddad, you know, my dad mum mum around me at the time, you know, trying to push me. And it was difficult even at the earliest stage because, you know, I was living out of mum's couple of days and my granddad was an awkward boy. And then, I was going down the road, it was actually a five minute spot. You know, like I said, my mum couldn't really cope with me at the time. And I was back and forth from my nanoguan, and it was a lot. And then, like I say, driving up and down the motorway, Liverpool, straight back back to Manchester, or trying to Liverpool for one day have a game for your night at the next day. So, you know, he put the, he put the adage in, you know, to get me where I'll order you today. You said you said that your mother couldn't really cope with you at the time. What do you mean by that? Stip pressure. It should be in bed all day. More than most days, you know, going, asking money for the ice cream, like, still being bad. So, me, I was happy, I was lucky. I'm bubbly, like, what is going to play out with play football, my friends. But, and you don't understand, you know, the situation, you know, your mother's in that time. We're so young, so I don't really understand what was going on. Until, obviously, it got brought to light, you know, maybe, probably say, I don't see no about 16, 17, you can kind of understand like what she's going through and things like, well, she'll never talk about it. She'll always bother it all. So, your mother was suffering from depression, even when you were very, very young. Yeah. But at that time, you just didn't realize what it was. No, I didn't know it was. Did she know what it was? I think she knew, yeah. But she would never, at that time, would it have a really a support system to support her? She had really people around her that, you know, she would go to, like, she would go to my PA now and, you know, go to the doctors and, you know, she would sort of all that out. But at that time, obviously, I think she knew what it was, but she got really caught with it. She got really, you know, I had to deal with certain things. And, you know, for me, I was a kid, so I was play out of fun, play football. But for her, she's probably going to be in bed all day. She would drop me off at school. Well, she would drop me off at school at eight o'clock in the morning and then sleep until three o'clock in two spits meal. I saw how bad it was. Like, she was really going for it. So she'd sleep all night, wake up to drop you to school and then go back to bed? Mm-hmm, yeah. If you're sleeping a day time, pick me off at school, probably go back to bed again, just lay in bed. I couldn't shut that room, everything. And then, obviously, you know, back me, whatever, go before I go to bed, and it's just sleep all night. Over the last ten years or so, people have become more aware of what, like, depression and mental health is. And this is kind of why I ask if your mother knew what it was, because, like, ten years ago, if I'm being completely honest, there was a real stigma around mental health. It was kind of seen as someone just kind of being a bit crazy. Yeah. And over the last ten years, thankfully, we've gotten to a point where we have a better understanding that we have physical and mental health. And this is why I say, like, did your mother know what it was? Did she just think she was just sad or she didn't have motivation? Or did she know she was depressed? Yeah, I think it was the... Probably the motivation part. Like, she couldn't get out of bed, she just got motivated, so I was together with her. Even when the World Cup... I was dying for it to be there. And I think she came for the quarterfinals. And that just made me so happy, because... In that situation, you know, not getting out of bed, not having the motivation, but she found that motivation to come and see her son play at the World Cup. I was told that I was really proud of her. It's brave what you did. Because, you know, every day in bed, depressed, no motivation. And just to find that little bit of motivation, just to come and see, you know, her son at the World Cup. And don't forget, she's got my little sister and little brother as well. So, you know, she's got to deal with them as well. Which is always tough, but, like I said, to find that motivation to come and see me at World Cup was... Important for me, especially. Because I wanted to... I wanted to live there anyway, regardless. And I didn't even know she was coming until I was in the lineup, singing national anthem, I see, you know. You've seen her, you've seen her really? And it just gave me goosebumps, shall we? Like, it was so emotional after that. And I wanted to perform at the highest level in winning the game, just for... I think there's a video on my Instagram of me holding it for, like, two, three minutes. I've seen it. And it's just some things that can make you happy as a person, but just to be there and get up and get changed and get dressed. And have that motivated me to see her son at World Cup. That's what made me happy. This is a bit of a difficult question because it's not always obvious. Did you ever figure out where... or what the root cause of your mother's depression was? Um... not really, no, I think... I think it's soon as she had me, to be honest. I think it was just difficult for her to handle having her child. Like I say, I mean, when I went, you know, took over most of the time, but, you know, she was still there, she was still not moving, but... It was just hard for her to do a bit. You know, we had certain instances where, you know, we'd be in bed and she'd be, like, trying to stretch my legs and that. I'm like, what's going on? What's happening? I didn't know what was going on. I didn't know she had depression at the time, I was such an engaged. But for her, it was just normal, like normal for her. And she's like, you know, stretching my legs. Like, you've got training tomorrow. And I'm like, what's going on? So she had them, like, phases where, you know, she'd do, you know, some... Extraordinary, you know, stuff. Stretching your legs, I'm confused. Yeah, it's like, like, stretching my grains out, like, before we went to sleep. Just like, it was strange for me, because I knew I trained next day, but for her, I was probably not, like, natural and normal. Do you know what I mean? Like, still, it doesn't resonate with me today. I'm probably not resonating with her today with what was going through her head at the time, like, especially when I was born. Like, could she handle that situation of having a kid? So you were saying, basically, before you would go to sleep, she was stretching your legs in a way that didn't make sense, like, as in... Yeah, I was like, I just want to go to sleep. Like, why... Well, I would never question, like, I would never question her. But she was too, like, extraordinary stuff. And this lasted, this has lasted up until today, since, as young as you can remember, till, till today. Yeah. And I think she'll just, she'll still always have depression, but she can cope with it now and she can handle it, because, like I said, we've got the right sports system around. But still, it's, like, I say, we've got a little brother and sister, she looks after, and, you know what, she's come on, mum's come on and leads on bounce, to be honest. Especially from, like, even a documentary, she was nervous to do that. Like, she was crying in the car, like, the director of sport tour. I said, you're going to be involved in it, she was crying, like, didn't know it was just caught with it. But, you know, she found a courage, found a motivation, you know, to do it. And that's still a big thing, even though she's going through what she's going through. But, like I said, we can, we can handle, you know, certain situations now. Emotions, you said about bottling up your emotions. And generally, you know, I think men in particular have a real problem with kind of expressing their emotions for various reasons, because we're, you know, we're macho, masculine and whatever else. But, did you learn at a young age at all how to express your emotions? Did you see, did you have models in your life where people were emotionally expressive? No. Oni with, oni vamum, I'm an anangranad. I would always say love you, like, how are you, you're okay? But, like, that side, like, not much, like, rarely hug more of a, you know, fist pump, but, you know, sometimes you ought to see that, that love inside, especially from, you know, a father, and, you know, maybe coming to a father as well, that's all I ought to do with, with hope, you know, tell all of our, you know, expressed, you know, like emotion to her. So, I mainly got from, like, my mum's side, granddad's, none, mainly. And I'd say, I think it does come into a realization where, you know, we've seen a documentary and, you know, as far as what's the point in, you know, it's a short life, what's the point in, in arguing all the time, because my mum and dad never see an eye tie, so I can understand from my mum's perspective where, you know, she don't want to see him, but, that's a contour realization where it's like, let's get together, let's have a coffee, let's sit down, you know, I'm into really, you know, walking up and, and realize I'm too short to, you know, because it'd become in games and, we mum, it'd be asking, like, is she moving the box? Are you using the box? Are you using the box? And I'm like, my mum? I'll sit in the stands and, and I know it shouldn't be like that, but, you know, that's how it is, but he wants that, you know, togetherness again, but I can never see a mum doing it. I can never see a mum giving him time of days, I'm honest. Has your mum been able to find a new partner since? She picks, yeah, she picks, not the best people to be honest. She puts a lot on us, but she kind of fries off that for some reason, like the bad boys, and, you know, the situation that we're in. You know, you can't be going out with these guys and doing what you're doing with these guys because, you know, it comes back to me. They've had a lot of drama with most of them, to be honest, and the last guy hung himself. Mm-hmm. Which was, it was deep, but you know what, lassists are like, like, one minute, and we give another world, and then next, he'll be like, "Who you with? Like, who you texting?" And I'm speaking, I'm like mum, these guys are not good for you, I'm like, they're not good for you, but somehow she fives off them situations and gets a buzz off it and becomes happy. So, I was in a situation where it's like, do you want me to be happy? Mm-hmm, being with these guys, or, you know, bring her back down to earth. So, it's a difficult situation, but I can say, yeah, the guy, you know, hung himself in the end. Mm-hmm. And then, after that, my mum realised, you know, she can't be, you know, dating these people. It's difficult in a completely, well, I can completely understand not that I've had that lived experience, but I can understand what you're saying with this conflict of, I want her to be with someone, but if it's a bad option, would I rather her just be alone? And then, you know, I was thinking, as you were saying that, about many of my friends who have been going through difficult situations with their mental health, and what ends up happening, because there might be a gap somewhere, or something missing, or something not quite state-based. And then, you know, if you're something not quite stable with you, you end up attracting someone like a mirror who is also a little bit unstable, who isn't in the best place, and you're kind of a toxic together in a way. And often, I think, with some of my friends, it's like, you just need to work on yourself first before you try and find someone who, you know, because a lot of the time, we end up trying to look for someone that will fix us. Yeah. Which is never a good thing. I think that's what she did, she wanted someone to, because, you know, she's not, she's got friends, but she doesn't go out with her friends and, you know, be social. So, I feel like having, you know, someone, you know, she could go to his house, she could do things then, she could be happier. But on the other side, it's like, they're not good for you though, to bring you down in a way. Manipulators and... Manipulating, and... The well aware of your pieces. She should believe it. Right. She should believe, like, I don't know, we'd go probably, we'd go somewhere like me when Mum, Daisy, maybe Travis and that stuff like that. And the guy would be texting like, "Where are you, like, what are you doing here with?" Like, "I feel the family." "No, you're not, no, you're not." And it's like, and I don't know, my mum's like dealing with this and I'm like, "How can you deal with that?" I think, "How can you deal with this?" And it's blocking. But she just, like, she loves the attention, she loves it. Narcissists target people like that. Mm-hmm. That they can control in such a way, be coercive and manipulate and sort of take advantage of their self esteem and stuff. That's what narcissists do. Because an individual like that, a narcissist like that, would never be successful in coercion and manipulation of someone who would go, "What the fuck are you texting me when I'm with Mum?" "The fuck do you think you are?" Exactly, that's what I'm saying. They wouldn't survive there. So they find their way to people who they can... Easy targets. Yeah, exactly. It's easy to target. And it's difficult. You know, but she never back down. If I say, like, "Look, leech, leave him." She's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll block him, block him, but she'll unblock him next day." It's tough, man. It's difficult, it's hard. It's difficult.

First break at Manchester United (21:07)

Loves a difficult, difficult thing. Off you go into Manchester United. When did you get in your view your first real break in Manchester? Um, Paul, you're in Josie, come in. Really? Yeah. I mean, not in the south. It's right, it's focusing. So I said, "I'll make it when I'm 23." I'm a type 3, 34. So, you know, I always believed in me, always believed in me. Um, I think when doing my most common work ready to play, first team, for Wyatt, and then I think, especially on the Van Gogh, um, you know, a game in the confidence to play. But I still look at this difficult because, you know, I was at a stage where I played the first game on the Van Gogh, did my knee six months out. The January came, went on long to Darby. And then the season after that was when I was at kind of make-up break. So I left it till October time. And if I weren't playing then I knew I needed to leave. And then he played me at CSK Moscow, where he chumps league. Like, just starting. Is that... Oh, okay. Freezing. Cold. Minus. Five, whatever it was. Renewing was like, "Don't wear gloves." Like, "What?" It's like, "Don't wear gloves." I was like, "Okay." "Don't wear gloves. Played well." And after that, stayed in the team. So it's kind of a... That's kind of a make-up break time for me. Why does that comment "Don't wear gloves" significant to you? Because, you know, especially at United, we're brought up. Got wear black boots. No gloves. No long bottoms in training. Just like the basic things, you know, we brought up with that. So when you go into the first team, of course in the warm-up, you know, when we're close. But for the game, you know, back to basics, how we grew up, don't wear gloves in the game. It's about values, right? It's about values.

Sir Alex (23:26)

You know, it's more always the way you've been brought up. You know, United put that into us at an early age. A lot of that comes from Cyrillic's Ferguson, right? Mm-hmm. I'm super, you know, I've sat here with a bunch of Cyrillic's Ferguson players, Rhea, Gary, Patrice. How would you describe the culture at Manchester United during that Cyrillic's Ferguson period? What was the culture like? It was good. Yeah. Always banter. Real. Scosie. Gig-z. You know, always banter. Even on tour. You know, it's good to go on tour with them. And, you know, I think, you know, real being real. Always, was there for advice. Always there to speak to. You know, on a regular basis, like most of them, Scosie, the same. Um... Were they honest and critical as well, though? Are they tough? Some of those senior lads? Um... Yeah, because they win us. And, you know, they've been there and done that. And, you know, they won trophy before. And, you know, it was unfortunate that I wasn't, you know, any other teams that, you know, won the prize. You know, won the prem or our Champions League. But, you know, even on tour, you know, you start winning games and, you know, going on tour with them. Especially with, you know, Sarak's was, you know, an amazing feeling. Remember being on a bench, me and Pogba got called up for... To be on a bench against Newcastle. You know, not knowing if I'm going to play or not, but still, just to be there and see how, you know, the irony change your room and, you know, see that winning mentality. I think being at United is all, you know, it's... It's been instilling you from a young age that, you know, winning is important. Don't matter how you win, just win. And I think they've been so successful in all the years. You know, winning trophies. Just by having that winning mentality. Sarak's focus on leaves. Now, it's funny because I'm a Manchester fan. I'm a big fan. And I've had season tickets over the years and... Go to most of the games at home still today. And from what I've heard, it went from being like a family to being run by Ed Woodward and it feeling less like a family. Like one of the comments, one of the waitresses meant, said to me, was, you know, when Sarak's focusing on David Gil were here, they would come in here and like chat to us and they knew all of our names. Every single one of our names. And then when Sarak's focus on left, one of them said to me, they don't... But then it speaks to us anymore. It's different. Sarak's was like a month-to-month. Like when we're training with the first team, it brings us 16-17 training with the first team. Like it gives you that confidence. Know your names. Know all. Like from probably under 10s to the first team. You know everyone's name. You take this time out to understand you as a person and you're a family. Like I say, you know things change. You know but with him, you know it was good that you know it could understand the family side, get to know your family a bit more. You know, understand you as a person. You know see progression. Like I say, you said 23-34, you'd be in the first team. You know to head up, you know you can kind of get a big ego but you know for me it was nothing is guaranteed anyway. So I was going to work my ass off 10 times, you know more, you know to be in a first team. Rio said to me that when his granddad was ill, Sarak's folks not only knew but he knew what Rio's granddad's favorite whiskey was. Flowers were and he sent it to the hospital bed before anybody else. He got it there. So Rio said to me, whenever I've asked the senior players why Saph was so good they would all just, before we even get the words out they'd say, "Man management, it's what you said there was all." And I think even this day and age now I feel like it's important. Even with Josie, Josie used to FaceTime me randomly. A couple of times I'd be driving and FaceTime me. I'm like, "Where are you, where are you kid?" I'm just driving home from the south of just, "Where's Marcus?" I don't know if he's at home. Okay, enjoy. Just a lot of things that I, little calls here and even you know Steve Cooper not going for it. Bring me, just have conversations. I'm wanting to understand you a little bit more. I feel like it's so important. Why? Because it shows that they care. It shows. And when they care you care back. Yeah, right, how care works. Yeah, I would understand you a little bit more than, you know, as a person, not just another manly, as a person like how you operate. Not in football, I want no outside of football as well. Same with the lads. I want no outside of football. I want to get to know your families. And I think, well, not from New Zealand. We've got our Southgate. Man management top. Got to the 2018 World Cup. Got to the rooms. See a picture of me and my mum. See a picture of me and Marcus. It's like we're home. So when you got to your room at camp. Yeah, in the hotel. I felt like it was at home. He really has got the best out of England.

Gareth Southgate (28:44)

In my lifetime, in the 30 years that I've lived, I've never seen in England side that look so happy and cohesive and honestly ego free. And then it's showing in the tournaments we're playing. We have hope. I was out in Qatar and I was in the stadium for the England France game. And even though we lost, I walked away happy because we're playing great. And we're challenging. What's he done in your view to that England side to create that atmosphere in that culture? I just think he understands, you know, us as players. I think when he first came in, he was the first person to give me a debut of England. I played him on the 21s, you know, on the city's values and the way he did things. And then, you know, coming into the senior team, you know, giving my debut. What are his values, your view? I mean, he cares about the players a lot. And, like I say, he wants to understand, you know, the player. You know, so for me, you know, being with me on the 21 level and what's he being with me, a senior team, you know, is this trust already there? Anyway, but, you know, it takes a lot to trust a person. And, you know, for someone new coming into the team, you know, we still understand the person. And, like I say, he wants that trust and the trust back. You know, you can speak about anything. Not just football, he speaks about anything. And, you know, we'll understand and ask about, how's your mum? How's your dad? How's everyone? There's a lot of things going on, and I think, you know, the management side of it is very important, especially tournaments anyway. But, you know, the group as a collective, you know, understand his values and the way he does things. You know, so people new come into the company, you know, it's easy selling, straight away. Because it'll pull you straight away and like, speak to you, you know, and, you know, talk, just talk. And that's it. And I think it's so important. What's his, you know, a lot of managers are known for, you know, Swarlex Ferguson's... One of the trademarks of his style is the hairdryer. I know that's kind of like overgassed by the media and stuff, because you hear what a caring man he was. But when you think about Southgate's style compared to these other managers, you've had like Van Gala, Merino and all in Mois, et cetera. What's his style of Southgate's? It's different what... It's still got the hairdryer in them all. Really? Yeah. It surprises me. Yeah, no, it surprises a lot of people. But you need that though, because you know what a manager is, you know, nice and you let's you, you know, get away with a lot of things here and there. Like, he's on it. Like, I'll tell you if you're in the wrong way or not. No matter what player you are, who you are, I'll tell you if you're in the wrong way or not. But, you know, on the other hand, he still wants to create that good vibe with the team. You know, it'll shout when it's needed, but most of the time, it's just simple. He speaks to him, you know, he speaks to the group, you know, simple words. You know, enjoy the game we've been there before. Go out, go out in the game, you know, our fun, do the tactics all in a week. But, you know, someone like that, you know, he's a good guy as well. I think, you know, it goes a long way, especially, you know, winning the team.

Ads (32:27)

Quick one. As some of you know, Intel are sponsoring this podcast. And for me, Intel has made the search for a premium laptop so much easier by creating the Intel EVO platform, which is signified by this sticker here in the corner. Laptop designs only receive the Intel EVO badge when they have been tested to pass Intel's own very strict requirements so that they can actually perform as you need them to out in the real world. And the result for me is a premium laptop that can perform everywhere, even with my crazy schedule in mind. And most importantly, it can handle multiple tabs open and a battery that really lasts throughout the entirety of my meetings. Whatever you need your laptop for, Intel EVO have you covered. It's a game changer to find out more and to get your hands on an Intel EVO laptop, go to and let me know how you get on. It is that time of year again where my life becomes incredibly reliant on heel. I'm busier than ever. I'm trying to be nutritionally complete in all that I do. I'm trying to make sure I get all of the vitamins and minerals that I need in my diet. And heel has been for the last three and a half years. The primary reason as it relates to my diet that I've been able to be nutritionally complete while also being incredibly productive. They've also been a sponsor of this podcast since we launched the podcast. And so I owe them a huge debt of gratitude for enabling this show. And in fact, when we hit the million milestone on YouTube with this podcast, I sent it to the founder because I've never shared this before. But he actually said to me when I started the podcast, he was like, "You're going to absolutely kill it. You'll have millions of subscribers. You'll be this big. You'll be that big. You have so many people who listen." And I don't know if I believed it, if I'm being completely honest, but he believed in us and this show before we'd released one episode, which is a remarkable thing. And he gave me a huge amount of self-belief for myself. So thank you, Julian, for that. But also thank you, Hugh, for creating a product that has helped me and helped my health stay intact in my busiest days over the last couple of years. Back to the episode. Why did Manchester United not reach the levels on the pitch during that era?

Why did Manchester United struggle with so many good players? (34:20)

Because when I look at the players that we had, I mean, fucking hell, we signed some unbelievable players. People often criticize the glazes for lots of reasons, but when you think about the money spent on players on the pitch, we spent the money. It's almost a billion, I think it's almost a billion we spent in players in that period. Yeah, we couldn't seem to win. We couldn't seem to get that cohesion right through that sort of Van Gal, Mourinho era, and even the David Moyse era. What's your assessment on why that is? Like, why wasn't it? I think it didn't click. Of course it wouldn't. We've won the FA Cup, Mourinho, Europa League, Carwell Cup. But these world-class players are coming to United, and I'll be honest, they're looking average. So they would come from a club where they were banging and me and my friends we celebrated on Manchester United chat were like, "Here we go lads. Every year." And then it's like they'd become half the player. It's strange because a lot of players have come in and failed. Like I say, Alexei Ntranen, top. They sent call it. Training call it. Then it comes to a game, it's didn't click for some reason. Not long. Is it pressure? When I was playing, especially with Ramen, Alexei's, we just wanted to enjoy football, and course it's going to be hard to win a prem win city. It's been so dominant for many years, but even to win Europa League, Carwell Cup, community-issued. We're winning trophies, but I think when Joe's here left and trophy stops, it's difficult. Another new manager. You have to kind of prove yourself over and over again. It's kind of like fake promises really. That's the heart of it. You're playing that game. Do you not play them? During the time under social. I played at first, and then I was like, "That's not going to be the box office. When all first came in, you were unbelievable. You were all in out of control." I said to him before the season, "If I don't play X-A-Mauter game before December, then we let me go alone in January." He said, "Yeah." So, didn't play. Then January had come west, I'm coming in. I stole people with debating. Was he fitting off? Is he ready to go into a team like that and start straight away? That nearly didn't happen, did it? It was off and on and off and on. Honestly, I was literally with my brother watching this guy's watch news. Day and boys on the phone, I'm like, "Yep, I'm coming. I'm there." You want me to know I'm there. I had all rings. No, you're not going there. It's off. It's done. It's crying. I was crying. I was like, "What do you play football?" I was like, "All right, it's back on now." I was like, "What do you play football? Let me just go and play football, please." Since I got there, hit the ground running. It's probably one of my best seasons, to be honest. I think nine goals, five assists in from February to May. I still didn't go to your rules after that. That was my main aim to go to your rules.

Not going to the Euros (37:54)

How did that feel when you found out that you weren't going? After having won it, probably arguably your best ever year in football, before at West Ham, when you were widely considered to be the most informed player in the league. How did it feel? It's heartbroken because growing up was what I do represent my country. I believe England. To not play the first half of the season, then to go to West Ham, and to fall, I was in there. I could have easily took it into the Orioles, but didn't pick me in like a say. I weren't showing enough to probably say why I'm not picked. Would that have helped? Probably, yeah. Do you think? To get a reason out of it, yeah? It wouldn't have got you in the team, but it would have helped you. Yeah, like, what could have done to get into the team? Should have scored 10, 11 goals, I don't know. Do you have a suspicion why you weren't picked? You do, don't you? I can see it in your face. I don't know because... I can see that smirk. You do. I don't know because... I'm just thinking of a form. How can I not be picked? Do you think it could be something else? Because your form, you can't argue with it. Can't argue with form. You can argue with us. Anything else? Just don't lie. Off the pitch. Off the pitch, I was sweet. I was in a good mental space. I don't know what it could have been then. This is what I'm saying, who knows? And maybe one day we'll probably get another reason, but to this day, not shall I? In 2019, as shown in the documentary, your mother was admitted to hospital.

Your mother being admitted to hospital & your depression (39:50)

What was the cause of that happening? What was the lead up of events that sent her to hospital? Just the depression. It was just so bad that she couldn't really cope anymore. I think she needed to go away and get help. But then leaving me with my little sister was probably 11 at a time. My little brother was probably like 15 at the time. For me, I was still going through my own things as well. So I went really the big role that they wanted at a time. Because they always get the form, the laughie-jessie, the bubbly-jessie. By that time, I was going through my own stuff anyway, so I was just autopilot. You were in hospital, you've got two younger siblings that you're now primary carer of, and how are things going on the pitch? You're saying that you just weren't present on the pitch? Swearner. Like mentally. Like, I'd be on the pitch, but still not in the pitch. Really? I don't want to play. I don't want to quit football. I never quit football, but I would have needed a break. If a lot of them wouldn't need a break on the pitch then. And is this an old first year or second year? I just thought the second year, and I was going into games. It's mine blank. It's not a pitch. I didn't want to be there. Of course, I'm going to play about it. I'm going to get an abuse. That was kind of what I tipped it over to be honest. After the Derby game. What happened? It's only one. But, you know, as soon as you get on the bus, it's, "No, Jesse, you're shit." Blah, blah, blah. Like, "Why are you playing Frostbaw, Blah?" And you felt a luke shot back to it to be honest. He came down off the bus on that side of the show, and I'm arguing with him, but... Don't even have the Derby fans, like United fans, but... Like, I'm human, you know what I mean? Of course it's going to affect me. Like, I'm already down enough anyway. I'm already going through things what you don't know about. And I've got to perform on a weekly basis. And when you're performing, you're not performing at 100%. So, of course, it's going to be critics, and, you know, you're not playing that well. You know, to be a abuser, like that. Just kind of what tipped it to be fair. That was like, I was like, "No, I can't. I can't be asking anymore." Like, I need a break. I need to find something, some motivation, some fire, my belly again, to get going again, because, you know, I can't be doing this. And there'll be another game next week, and I'll be like, "Oh, I can't be asking, I can't, I don't want to play." Just during that time, that time period, I've heard of everything that was going on in the moment. Look after my little growing system, and I felt like a little word on my shoulders. There's this really kind of like moving, haunting part in the documentary where I think your brother, your older brother, has literally a video, you're lying on the sofa completely. Yeah. Still, your eyes are like blank. That's how it was. Like, even like training, like just masking it. Just trying to like... Just masking, you know, the depression side of things. The anxiety, like, I was still trying to be Jesse, like, "Banna, I've had no jokes on that." But, you know, it comes to a point where you actually need to say something, because I felt like the world was on my shoulders and had no one's turn to, like, can't speak to no more anything. I didn't want to speak to you, I thought, you know what, I can deal with this, I can handle this. I'm growing enough to deal with this. But, come to a point where it's like, "Oli, this is what's going on." I kind of kept it, you know, close-knit, to be honest. But, even just to have, like, Oli say, like, "How's your mum? How's she doing?" Like, I could have a conversation with him, I could have a conversation with a doc, a conversation with a liaison woman. And that just helped a little bit more. Just having that conversation and letting people understand what I'm going through. And then, I think I did a piece for the paper, you know, talking about it. And I still don't think people were really fully understood, you know, what was going on until, like, I could say, a documentary came out. In order for you to be able to have those conversations with the people, you first had to make the decision to, like, for you to talk about how you're feeling, because once you open up, then they can give you that support. You talked about how it's difficult to do that when you're young man. Did you realize, in that moment, you were suffering with depression? Could you see yourself and your mother? Yeah, probably, yeah. I think the video sums up the woman I want to suffer. I'm just, I'm just going to lay there for, like, three minutes. Just staring to dinner. I don't know what I was thinking, I don't know what was going on from my other time. But, like, I said, you were like, I was drinking, so, like, before bed, like, I had a nightcap, I'm like, it's a lot about nothing. I'm not doing that far. Like, what I needed something, is just trying to take the pain away and, like, put me at ease somehow, and, like, try and forget what was going on, but it makes ten times worse. Do you feel the online criticism? Are you exposed to it? No, don't read it. You don't read it? No. Have you ever gone on Twitter and looked at what people are saying? No. I think that's a worse thing anyone can do. Some players must do that, right? I think we'll play it, yeah. But, not online. Because, do you think I'm strong enough to handle it now? Yeah. But, hang on, I'm strong enough to handle negative comments, criticism, whatever. Kind of shouting football. But there's no point going in search of fear. Yeah. In a sewer. Yeah, there's no point. Why search for it? Because I'm thinking about, like, you know, we talked a lot recently about players like Harry Maguire being on the receiving end of a lot of criticism and stick. In my view, most of it is completely unjust. But, I've always wondered if players actually feel that criticism and it impacts their game. Yeah. I think so. Can you see that when you're in the dressing room? If you know a player's, like, been slammed in the press or online or whatever, can you see them drop? Like, their head drop a little bit and then... Yeah, they probably try and mask it a little bit. Yeah. Just to, like, be strong, like, handle it, but... Like, we are human. Of course, criticism is going to affect us, especially when, you know, the pundits are saying it. And it's... Especially them, you know, with the pundits saying it, more than, you know, a comment on Instagram or... or stuff like that on social... or any social media. Because it gets highlighted more, you know, in the press with, you know, pundits saying it, so... Of course you're going to see it or someone's going to send it here. But then it's kind of masking it, trying to be strong. And then you've got to go and perform. But... I think the majority of players, you know, at this day and age, are strong enough to tell what anyone says anymore. You did perform when you went to West Ham.

Manchester United losing the control. (47:26)

You really, really performed as we've discussed. I think a lot of people were expecting you to stay there. Because you performed so well. And it just seemed like you finally found your groove consistent. You scored the goals, you got the assists. What was your thinking at that point when that loan comes to an end? Did you want to stay at West Ham? Mm-hmm. You wanted to stay? Yeah. Manchester United wanted you to come back. Yeah. So I had a year... Yeah. I was... I went into my final year after that then. Mm-hmm. And I saw what was going... I watched it going alone in Jan, so I went playing again. So... Newcastle was in the cards in Jan. Deal was done everything. Obviously United squad weren't big enough. So the couple of players got on loan. And then when it comes to me... ...John Murrung is like, "Ny, you're not going on loan?" I was like... Well, he's gone along. He's got like, "Let me score and enjoy if I'm not playing there, so let me score on loan. Play football." To Newcastle. Yeah. And... He's like, "What do you want days off?" I was like, "No, that's what I'm going to play football." Like... Would you want days off? Yeah. So this is the whole thing, what happened? So then... ...they stopped the loan. I was always pissed. And then when he said about the days off and that... ...I mess with him, I was like, "You know what? I'm going to take two days off now." Scudgy said that. So then they put out... ... um... ... Jessie's ass for two days off. And then media... ... what? Well, I'm trying to straight away. No, I didn't ask for two days off. He asked me the only one days. I was put out there. The facts. How... What was the dressing room like at that point? You know, because a lot of players were obviously when... ... Ronaldo comes in, obviously, all eventually ends up getting fired, etc, etc. It did feel like... You know, they use this phrase, "All the managers lost the dressing room, or there's..." From a fan looking in, you could just see that there was something wrong with the culture at the club. Players were coming there that were world class. As we said earlier, world class elsewhere, coming, they were becoming... ... fucking average players. You've got all of these rumours leaking, you've got all of this stuff happening. Players at the club feeling like their trust has been broken. Like you said you've been lied to a few times. It just felt like someone didn't have control of the place. No, it wasn't. There's no control, a lot of things. Like you say, when Sarac's was there, it was full control. For the fortress. Yeah. The fortress. Everything goes through them. Contracts, everything, commercials, everything. Of course, generations change. Players grow up. People have a voice. But like you say, when things are getting said about it, it's not true. You're going to voice your opinion. Like you say, it wouldn't happen back in the day. It'd be squashed there and then, "What's the Rolex?" But like you say, now, people have got platforms to voice their own opinion and write what they want. Do you think players have lost respect? Not in this sort of Eric Tanhargirra, but just in that period that followed through these managers and the social area. Do you think players from what you had seen had kind of lost respect for the club? Probably, yeah. It looked like that. Yeah, probably. It looked like this wasn't the same or you've managed control. You're in control, right? There's no structural, there's no balance. People do what they want, pretty much, like a free-for-all. Free-for-all. Yeah, it's just a free-for-all. I mean, like you say, people saying something like, "That's never happened, ever!" You know, and people are saying stuff onto it or anything, up on the pole and like, "Yeah, as well." Like, you've got a lot of scrutiny. Like, guys, one of the best midfielders in the world, like, I've known him since I like 16. Like, kids got talent one. Like, he's one of the best midfielders in the world, and still he can't perform at United. So, there's something wrong in some way. You've got one of the best midfielders in the world you can't perform. And then, during the season when you're in National Bridge and you go to France, and you see where he plays the France, it's like... Yeah. ...guy's sick. And come back like, "Hey, Alexis, son, that's all you're... "I don't know what it is. I can't say what it is. I don't know what it is." I enjoy my time on the Jorzea, yeah? Like, I don't want one of my best seasons on the Jorzea. I was going to say that. Of all these managers, Van Hal, you know, Mourinho, Ole, in the boys, in the post-Saralax-Fogsen era, when did it most feel like there was control, and that United was starting to be more like United? Um, probably Van Hal, too, but that's... Really? Yeah. He... he had a structure. Like, everyone understood what he wanted. Like, some people didn't like it. I love Van Gogh. Um, very tactical. No, I wanted to play, and everyone bought into that. And then, of course, Jorzea, the best manager in the world, just wants to win. But, like you say, had that... my management as well. And had the belief in me and the trusting me to perform. I'd say I had one on best season on the Jorzea. That's how I went to the World Cup. If you could wave a one, then if I gave you a one, then I said, "Okay, in that all era, in that post-Saralax-Fogsen era, do one thing to fix the club's issues. What would you have done with that one wish I've been?" You know what it is? I think, like, the soul behind, unlike everything. Like, you see, like, city's facilities, you see Tottenham's facilities when we go there, like, with England and that one with Cheo and that Tottenham. Like, people on Miles Ed, even, like, like, the social side of things. I went to him, like, T-Vant, so eating about, like, YouTube, and let's do, like, content. Like, they're so behind on everything. Like, I just want them to just get up to date on, like, the new things that are happening, like, the things that are popping. What does that matter? You got to be relevant. You got to stay relevant. But in terms of, like, the training ground, obviously, Ronaldo and the PISS Morgan interview talks about the JQC and the chefs and the food and the facilities and the weights training equipment. And he left years ago. Yeah. He says he came back and it was all the same. What impact does that have on you as a player? You want the best things? You want, essentially, like, you know, it's one of the biggest clubs in the world, so, you know, you want the best for the best. And, you know, of course, you want the best food and, you know, you want the swimming pool and the JQC and the song. Which is still there, but, you know, just, like, be more modern, like modernized, because, like, you see, like, you know, cities facilities and that. And you think, like, like, like, like, go up to date, like, catch up a little bit, like, because you're way behind at the moment. Is it a symbolic thing? Like, as in, it's just a, it's kind of a symbol that you're not keeping up with the other clubs. You're not investing in the, in the small stuff. Which, as a player, you go, well, then, well, we're also behind on the pitch and we're just behind. Just behind, not in general, because, like, I can do this like table tennis table and, like, like pool or anything. So, like, keep you like mentally, you know, happy and, you know, we had a dark ball and stuff like that, but, no, no, no, just, just like, no games room and nothing. And, like, you just, you just go in, you train and you go home. Sometimes you ask, like, state of training ground sometimes. You know, play darts and lads and, you know, play table tennis or the boys and that. But, this is, like, like, say, just need to catch up a little bit more and become a little bit more modern. Cause you've changed, like, the canteen or not, but, you know, to, to be relevant and stay in this day and age, you know, you've got to be more, a little bit more modern. Is that because of the ownership? Is that the, like, the people at the top of the club just don't understand what's important for the players? Because they spent their money on players. But to hear that they didn't spend the money on things behind the scenes kind of speaks to the fact that, I don't know, because Sir Alex Ferguson probably could have called the shots back in the day and said, we need this, we need this, we need this. This, we need this. Whereas these days, the last decade, who's called him a shot. No, you don't know. Right. Don't know what's going on. And, of course, now they want to sell the club. But the fans have been wanting to run out of a, you know, a long time. But did the players care? Did the players take a view, do you think? Mm. Not really. It was just, like, say, just the, just behind, it was just behind. And a lot of things. And they say, you want that modern, you want the modern things, you want the things that are, you know, popping off at that time. But I don't know, like, who calls the shots about, you know, changing the training ground or when things are out. But, like I say, just to catch up a little bit and you see what city you're doing on that. I say, fresh training ground, best facilities. No one talking back in the press about the team. You, you chose after your time at, um, old traffic after your contract that comes to an end to go to Nottingham Forest.

Moving to Nottingham Forest (57:04)

A lot of people were surprised by that. A lot of people would have thought you would have gone to back to West Am where you had an unbelievable run or even to Newcastle or something like that. Why, why did you choose Nottingham Forest? They were a newly promoted team. They'd just been promoted, right? Yeah. Um, why, why forest? I think they showed the love. They showed, you know, the willingness and the hunger to want me. They were going to fly me here, here, there and everywhere to, to get a deal over the line. Um, things brought down at West Am, negotiations, which obviously I can't get into too much. You know, not even going to show the love a lot more than, you know, West Am. And, you know, when you think about it, you know, I've been at West Am anyway before, and you get respect. Like, you see what I can do. I see what I've done. So you expect them to be like, yeah, like, you know what, I will show you the love. Like, this is a contract, blah, blah, let's negotiate. That's taught. And it went like that for some reason. They didn't want you to sign? No, they want me to sign what, like, give you a good deal. Kind of rush it. It's like kind of rushed. Like, it'll be like Wednesday night, like, it's a deal. Like, let's start. Like, you know me. Like, I'm not respect. Yeah, like, just show a little respect. Like, I've been there. I've helped your team, like, got to your colleague. I show a lot a bit more respect than that. We're not even going to slide. Listen. Like, we love you all. We want you all. Like, the manager will come to your house. Like, the owner wants to fly you to Greece, like, San Diego. Like, doing everything in the power to get the, the deal over the line. And, you know, for me, it was a new challenge, different challenge. New different ways to team. Because of all the, all the, known as United all my life. Um, when I remember leaving, leaving United the last day. And the physio that we had from under 18 is obviously, is with the first team now. He's like, I remember the FA Cup goal. I remember the youth cup, you know, run when you, when you, when you, you've got, like, I always remember that goal. Like, the FA Cup goal. So I got my car. Yeah. I started crying. Just started balling, crying. Like, all the way on, drove on me. I was like, it's actually leaving, I'm leaving, leaving, leaving. Crying all the way on. Like, couldn't contain all the emotions and that. And then, like, it lasted a long time. Like, I've been there all my life. Like, I know everyone in the club from, like, staff, kit man. Dinner ladies, you know, Mike Glenny, who started me, you know, to United. And, like, that's been my life, United. How did you feel about the club when you left it? Did you feel let down? Like, disappointed? Yeah. A little bit. They say false promises here and there. Not really give you a reason why, you know, you went playing. So, yeah, kind of let down, to be honest. Like, say, didn't really get a standoff. Been out that long. I think it is a fun. But when you get in that car, or you, when, I've been in the moment, it's all where I've, you know, quit my business that I'd started seven years in when there's hundreds and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of employees. And my first reaction, I've got to be honest, was like, I was like, when I knew I was going to quit, I was so mad and I wrote this email and it was kind of bitter and whatever else. When I realized I was actually going to send this email, there was this little pause. And this is when I was in, I was in Portugal at the time and I got really emotional. Yeah. Because that's when you look back and go, I'm actually going in here. Yeah. Like, it hits your, it hits your, it's all said and done now. Yeah. And I'm leaving. And so, I redid the email and it was like a really nice one. And it was like, I thank you to like the board and stuff that taking the chance on me and stuff. So, yeah, it's tough, tough though, because that was tough. When he said that, when Fizzo said that, I was gone, was gone crying all the way home in the car. And people don't know that. Like, people probably thought, oh, yeah, it's like, it's happy to leave, but I needed to leave. Like, I wasn't playing. So, I'm going to, like, I got off of the contract. But at some point, I'm not going to play. So, I wouldn't rather, like, yeah, it's biggest club in the world, but happiness is more important for me. And I needed to be happy and go somewhere I'm loved. It's been a difficult start to the season for Nottingham on the pitch. As we sit here now, I believe they're in the relegation zone in the table. What's your view on the start of the year for Nottingham? I think it's always going to be tough, especially with new players coming in, I think, 22, 23. Yeah, crazy. So, it's always going to be tough, but I feel like, especially the Tottenham game, the Palace game, we started getting a bit more momentum. Everyone knows, you know, the roles and responsibilities now we play with each other, you know, a lot more, and, you know, we understand each other a lot more. So, I felt like, you know, the connection was especially Tottenham in the Palace game. And obviously, we've had a break, but often the break can go to regroup and, you know, really, you know, re-evaluate and, you know, see what the main aim is for the season. And, you know, of course, we don't win really games on, you know, what we win in games. And a way we need to do a lot better, because, you know, we're struggling away from home but, you know, the home games can be really crucial and key, because the atmosphere is nothing of, like, I've never heard it like before. I've never been in that myself like that. For the game, like, et cetera, I get goosebumps every time. And I feel like we need to really, I think this dig deep, I think everyone knows what the situation will really mean. And just about, you know, maintaining, keep working hard. Of course, the attackers have got a score and, you know, we've got to do our job. You know, it's different for me because, you know, I've been playing at United and, you know, of course, we've got all the ball and, you know, we're getting shots and chances and that, of course, it's going to be difficult. I'm not in them where, you know, you might not see the ball as much and, you know, again, as many shots and, you know, create as many chances, but, you know, I thrive off these moments and these challenges. It's a new challenge and, you know, I'm happy to be there, you know, a love training, love playing in the games. And that's the most important, just to be happy for me.

Your companies (01:04:01)

Off the pitch. You know, you're 29 now. Players, I think the average age of a player usually goes, I don't know, 32ish, I don't know. What are you thinking about off the pitch? What's going on in your world? I know you've got your brand, you're doing several investments in sort of deals, you've got a media company. Give me a view of what that looks like. Even at United, I've always, you know, off the pitch, I've always, I'm always on the go. Always what I know what the next thing is to do. What's in that same investment? What can I be involved in? What can I do? Esports comes. Gaming, love gaming. Esports team, let's do Esports team. One, love fashion. That's a brand. Like the launch for the brand was like, was amazing. I feel like 3000 people turned up, like Victoria O'Relles. And then at the night time, little baby was there, got a little baby to perform. Anyway, even big, big then. But I just want to, I just want to be happy and do things that I want to do to make me happy. And, you know, the investment in the business side of things, of course, I want to set up things from a little sister, from a little brother, from a daughter when she grows up, that they can just go into straight away. And I think with the media company, it's called One Touch. Guess why it's called One Touch? Because you play One Touch with your granddad? Mm-hmm. So then it One Touch. And obviously, the Channel 4 documentary came from that. And I feel like it's just easy because if I do a commercial now, I say to JBL commercial and they're getting their production. And I can be like, "Oh, you can use my production." Like, the talent can get paid, and productions can get paid at the same time. So it's a win-win. And all the content, like, anything that we do, that we video record, we get like, like, final say so anyway. So it's all under our umbrella. And, like, say after football or what I go into acting. So maybe starting this now and maybe start doing a little bit of voice over work and, like, you know, the animation kind of thing. But I need to say, drama classes, I've not done that yet. Why acting? So when you think about your life after football, some people think about being a pundit or a manager or a coach, whatever, you're thinking acting. Mm-hmm. How come? This is a lot of films, man. I've always been a big film lover. And, you know, to be involved in, you know, a film or a series would be, you know, it'd be amazing and, like I say, I need to really, you know, hone in on the drama side of things and, you know, learn, like, I'm really bad at what lies to be honest. What would be your dream role? Have you got an idea in mind for what? Mm-hmm. What kind of, like, acting? Let's give me an example. I think I'd start comedy. Comedy? I think I'd start comedy first. And then, you know, when you see the NFLers and the Inceptions, I'm kind of rose. But that's going to take time. Like, you're not going to be, you're not going to be thrown in straight away. Maybe a bit part here and there, but, you know, for the future with a media company, we've got so many things, you know, in the lineup. And obviously it's based in LA and that's where eventually, hopefully, I want to finish football. You want to finish in America? Yeah, I think so. At the very centre of your documentary, "Is the story of your mother?" I found this wonderful picture. What does she mean to you? No, she's everything, Mum. She's been through it, Mum. She's been through it and, you know, to see where she is today, from where she was. A huge progression. So portable. And it can be hard because she's had depression for years and years and years. And, like you say, having me probably made that worse for her. Because she couldn't probably handle, you know, being a mover at that time, but luckily we had, you know, when I got on her dad's suppose, what? What do you want found? I just want the best for her. I want her to see, you know, a kid grow up. I know she's so proud of me. You know, half-hour have come. You know, she'll still mess with me for a bad game or anything like that. She's good. Same with my granddad, same with that, same with my brother. But she's been through it, but that's not the best for her. And, like I say, I want to keep her in this lifetime long enough to, you know, see me progress, see, hope, progress into the character, what she's going to turn into because she's the character at a moment. You're proud of her? Mum. Yeah. Massively. Massively. How come? Just from sitting in bed, you know, the age I was there probably. Oh, there may be a little bit older. Not being social to FaceTime me every day and ringing me every day and just what you're doing and have it. I love that. And I think my little sister, like, she's 40 and what she's actually, she's 18. But I think she helps my mum as well a lot, which is good because my mum never really had someone to lean on, not even my mum, not even my granddad really that much. Like, she's not really a dad, her proper friend to lean on, you know, in times of struggle. But I think having Daisy there, you know, my little sister, you know, she's really helping mum and, I think mum, you know, thrives off that and, like I say, we're both dast. We're all dast. Like, we do, like, honestly, if you had a camera in our house, honestly, it's just, it's 24, seven carnage, honestly. I believe you.

Final Conversations

Last guest question (01:11:26)

We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest asks a question for the next guest without knowing who they're leaving the question before. The question that's been left for you is, what are the uncomfortable things that you banish to the shadows, which means kind of putting the shadows, which would improve your life if you integrated them? Basically means what are the things that you put in the shadows that would improve your life if they weren't in the shadows, I guess? I think just to question things a little bit more, because growing up, I've never, I never do that. Like, I've been put in situations where I've got question things, like going ask questions. It don't actually not get, but I've never done that. And, you know, it's only taught me over the last couple of years where, you know, I'm not like, man-open, you know, be stronger to ask a question. Sometimes it can take time for a person to grow up and be a man, but having a daughter changed a lot of things. Like I say, if you don't go all the way, I'll cause someone a question of things, but back in the day, I wouldn't have thought. Well, Jesse, thank you. For so many reasons, you've given me so much joy as a Manchester United fan over the years. Not just because of your off-the-field performance, but just generally the personality you've brought into the game and the happiness you bring to your game, but also the documentary you've released on Channel 4 is incredibly important, incredibly inspiring because it's starting a new wave of conversation around players' mental health and really a call for empathy because we never, as fans, know what's going on off the pitch behind the scenes and to have a view into that puts things in perspective. It kind of turns the lights on. And when you can see that full picture, hopefully people will realize, as you've said, that your players, you're not robots and that even one comment or one thing happening at home can, like all of us, like the rest of us human beings can have a really debilitating impact on us, our mental wellbeing and how we perform. And that's a really important conversation, one that you didn't need to start, one that you could have very easily just kept yourself and it's tremendously strong country to popular opinion to speak out like that, especially when you're a man and it's not so easy to do so because of the stigma. So thank you for that. That's incredibly important and I'm exceptionally excited to see the next chapter of your life play out at Nottingham Forest, but then much further on beyond as you embark on a new career in a different industry. Thank you. It means a lot to me that you've come here today. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm glad to be here. I'm glad to be here. Quick word from one of our sponsors. I've got a tip for all of you that will make your virtual meeting experiences, I think, ten times better. As some of you may know, by now, BlueJeans by Verizon offers seamless high quality video conferencing. But the reason why I use BlueJeans versus other video conferencing tools is because of immersion. Their tools make you feel more connected to the employees or customers you're trying to engage with. And now they're launching one of their biggest feature enhancements to impact virtual events so far called BlueJeans Studio. I actually used it the other day. I did a virtual event using the studio, which I think about 700 of you came to, TV level production quality, all done by one person with very little technical experience on a laptop. So if you've got an event coming up and you're thinking about doing it virtually, check out BlueJeans Studio now. Let me know what you think because I genuinely believe, I know this is an advert and I'm supposed to say this, but I genuinely believe it's the best tool I've seen for doing really immersive, simple but high quality production virtual events.

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