Lessons From 50 Of The Worlds Greatest Minds with Jake Humphrey | E59 | Transcription
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This week on the Diaries CEO, we have a returning guest, Jake Humphries. He is an entrepreneur. He is a TV presenter. He's also now a podcaster and Jake has spent the last year on his podcast, sitting down with some of the most high performance people, some of the most accomplished people in their industries from acting to business, to sports, you name it. And so because of that experience, because of all the insights he's gained over the last year since we last spoke, I wanted to sit down with him and compare notes. We have a lot of high performance people on this podcast too. I wanted to understand the similarities. I wanted to pick into the minds of some of the guests and what he's learnt from them. How are they the same? What makes them different? And that's what we're going to talk about today. So without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Diaries CEO. I hope nobody is listening. But if you are, then please keep this to yourself. You've had what 30 people on your podcast today, you've got a lot more coming up.
Insights On Success And Personal Development
What are the key lessons you've learnt in the last year (01:00)
One of the key questions that I wanted to ask you, because it's something that I ask myself is, what are those key lessons that you've learnt? You've interviewed high performance athletes, actors, authors, and really high performance people from all industries. What are the key lessons and the themes? I think there was one key lesson that was summed up for me by Matthew McConney, the Oscar winning actor who came on my pod recently. And his phrase is, "Don't leave crumbs." And what he means by that is, when you're making a decision, don't leave stuff behind. Don't make a bad decision now that later when you've got to go back and pick that crumb up and be regretful about it. And that's brilliant because sometimes when we talk on the podcast, we talk about really big blue sky thinking, like we've talked to you about social change, setting up social change, sometimes to people that are listening, and that can seem unreal, almost untouchable, because this is huge, multi-million dollar business that you've created. But actually, don't leave crumbs is about making the decisions for a big, big business like that and creating something amazing. But also make sure that you don't have an extra drink in the evening, in case it leaves you with a hangover tomorrow and you've got work to do. Or make sure you simply choose your clothes the night before so you're not doing it in a rush. And I still leave crumbs all the time. I'll tell you, when we interviewed Matthew, he's the first Hollywood actor we've had on the pod. So for me, it was quite a big moment. And I thought, "Right, I really want to be looking good for this." So I thought, "I'll have a shower and a shave before we do the interview." And I was having a shave in the bathroom. My wife was in the bath, and she was going to come down and listen in the corner in my study because she loves Dallas Buyers Club. She was excited. And she was having a shave and she goes, "It's 9.54." And I was like, "I thought it was like 9.30 or something. We put the kids to bed." And then the next thing I'm running downstairs, I haven't done my hair properly. I'm on, I've got two Wi-Fi's home because our upload speed, living in the countryside is horrendous. So I was then on the wrong Wi-Fi, I then looked for the script I'd written for the questions for Matthew who couldn't find them. And I was like, "I was the last one in. I'm getting beaten to the interview on my own podcast by a Hollywood actor." And I left crumbs. And now that's a good lesson for me because I do it all the time. And I think that you only learn about the crumbs you leave by doing it. And I just really want people. I've had a few negative comments that have come my way about the podcast. Direct messages from people saying, "You're getting this all wrong. We're in a global pandemic. I'm having a really hard year. And here you are with a podcast that's just celebrating success all the time and showing up how we're all doing badly compared to your great guests." And for me, the podcast is A, that hurts me to think that because I don't want anyone to come to the high performance podcast and leave in that way. But it's the absolute total opposite of that because when we talk about what lessons can you learn from people on the podcast, the other biggest one is they mess up all the time. I think I genuinely believe successful people make more mistakes than anybody else because they're constantly challenging themselves to do stuff. And you're no stranger to making decisions that at the time you just simply don't know. But you have to find a way of making that decision. And I'm sure there are times when you've made 10 or 15 life changing decisions in a week. You know, the point about those crumbs and rushing down the stairs when you realize that you were like, "What could you have done in hindsight to prevent those crumbs being left behind per se?" I just need to be really honest with myself that I have weaknesses and I need to address them rather than thinking that everything's fine. And I am notoriously late. I am always a few minutes late and always my news resolution is this is the year that I'm not going to be late. But it just sounds... I'm surprised you know that you're late because the industry you work in is very... I know! And look at all the guests I've had on my podcast. We had Saklai Woodward who won the rugby World Cup. And you think of all of the discipline and the rules and the mindsets you need to win a rugby World Cup. The number one thing that stands out for him is something called Lombardi Time, which was created by the players. And they Lombardi obviously is famous name in American sports and they call it Lombardi Time because it's a name that sort of resonates with winning. And it was 10 minutes early. So if you say to any former England rugby player, what's Lombardi Time? They'll tell you 10 minutes early. So listen, I'm hearing this stuff, Steve, on a weekly basis and still not getting it right. And I think it just goes to show that we are human, we are fallible. And I do think we have blind spots, which there are some things... Some people find really hard, I don't. There are some things that is not an issue for other people and is a recurring problem for me to deal with. But no one's perfect. And how do you emotionally feel about the fact that you have blind spots? In terms of like, do you beat yourself up about it? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's a really common phrase, isn't it? To hear that you're your own biggest critic. And I think I'm probably less my own biggest critic than I was previously. Like when I first started in my presenting career and I used to come off air on the Formula One, I would solely focus on the bad stuff, on the issues, on the problems. And that was instilled in me by David Kulthard because he'd stepped straight out of a Formula One car, straight into broadcasting. And TV is a friendly and lovely place to be most of the time. You know, we're really good at telling each other how great we are. And we had our first production meeting just after the first race. And I was just grateful to get through it. It was my first ever bit of live Formula One, so I was just glad to have survived. So I was ready for this lovely "You were great, you were great, you were great, this was great." We started the meeting and David Kulthard went, "Well, sorry, can we just stop?" And this is unheard of. He goes, "I'm just not interested in this." And the producer was like, "Sorry, I don't understand." He's like, "I'm not interested in sitting here and going through all the good stuff. How does going through the good stuff make the boat go faster? Why are we not talking about the bad stuff?" And that was a revelation from me. I was like, "Yes, the good stuff's already good, so you focus on the good stuff." Now I have a different mindset. And bearing in mind, my first race was 2009, so this is 11 years ago. And for a long time, my focus was on the stuff that I was struggling with, or the stuff I wasn't very good at, or the times where I didn't feel life was very good. So I would look at a bad month or a bad year and go, "Right, why was I not that flowing? Why was I not really in a happy place? Why was this?" Why don't we focus more on the good stuff? And that is my mindset change. That is the thing that I, for 2021, that is going to be my focus. Let's focus on the good stuff so we realize what the good stuff is and just do more of it. Let's focus on the times when you were flowing and when you were feeling great, when you were barreling around the place, and when you were the guy, and when everyone wanted to work with you. What was I doing? What was I eating? How was I sleeping? Who was I spending my time with? What was feeding me? What was making me feel fantastic? That's probably a better place to focus on. Particularly after the sort of crap 2020 we've all had, I feel we've become a nation, maybe even a planet. With this obsession on failure, to not fail anymore, to be good.
Your experience with failure and anxiety (08:17)
And it's almost like a badge of honor, isn't it? I'm sure if you said to me a three or four months ago, "How's your relationship with failure?" "I love failure." "Love failure." "Bring failure on." That's how I learn. Failure is where I grow. I need to be on the absolute edge. So I'm failing all the time. I want to fail forwards and I want to fail often. Like I still do, but when I fail, when I leave crumbs, when I'm late for an interview with Matthew McConaughey, I'm not thinking, "Why did that happen?" Because then I'm focusing on the failure. I will allow it to be there and I will do my best not to do it again. But I'm going to try for 2021 to think about the good stuff, man. And just to see how that changes things for me. Super interesting. Do you focus on your failure? I don't focus on the failure. I was actually asking myself that question when you were talking. I was thinking, "Do I? Am I someone that dwells on failure? To be fair, I don't. I'm very, very good at being detached from it all. I think I talked early in this podcast about this video game mentality that I've taken on my life where I see my worst days. And to be honest, I think it's just my worst days as if I'm playing a video game and that I am not what's happening. And I think that detachment from what's happening has allowed me in my most chaotic moments to remain calm. It's allowed me to form a sort of calm within my chaos. So if I have a big failure or I really, really fuck up and I'm disappointed with myself or whatever, I'm very good at detaching from that. So I think the absolute ownership of what you're doing for me is powerful, which is, is that the total opposite of what you're saying? Because I'm like, whatever I do, I have to absolutely believe it and own that decision. Because then if it goes wrong or people question it, I can say, listen, I really thought it was the right thing. It's like the emotional detachment. It means that I'm not, I don't think that I'm going to die, although I am totally responsible for changing it. So I can think of, I'm thinking specifically about the day where I was driving to work, get the emails and the text messages saying that our whole service has been hacked and every client we have has been sent really, really personal specific abuse by them from our email server. That's come from my business partner's email. That looks like it was meant to be sent to my assistant, but the client was just accidentally CC'd in. - And this happened? - This happened about four years ago, five years ago. So I'm driving to work and I'm getting all these in. And in that moment, one has a choice whether they want to fall into the problem and become the problem and become consumed by it, or if they want to hold it out in front of them and deal with it there. If it consumes me, I'll be crippled with anxiety crying in the corner. But if I can hold it out in front of me and realize that this isn't going to kill me, this isn't going to end me, this isn't, you know, but this is something that I have to deal with out in front of me, then it becomes much more possible to be rational and to think in terms of probabilities. And I've come to learn, especially over the last year or two, that when you can make your decisions based on probabilities of the outcome, you can make really, really good decisions. - Yeah. - You know, I was thinking a good example of that is actually a friend of mine yesterday, text me. And he said to me that, it's interesting, he said to me that at his marketing agency, his client's passwords have maybe been exposed to one outside individual. So there's one guy, another company that might have seen all of his client's passwords. And he said, "Steve, I'm going to call all of my clients now and tell them that all of their passwords have been exposed." So I said, let's go through the probabilities here. If you lined up 100 people, like the guy that might have seen these passwords, how many of them would do something malicious with that information, we both agreed it was probably less than 1% of like reputable people that would take a bunch of passwords and do something malicious. So I said, okay, so one person out of 100 or less, so your probability of harm is less than 1%. What's the probability of harm if you call all of your clients and tell them that all of their passwords have been leaked? Probably greater than 1%. - Yeah. - So let's think about ways we can get that less than 1% down to like zero. So I said, email all your clients and tell them you've done a security review, and that you highly recommend they will turn on two-factor authentication today. And that means the probability of harm goes from less than 1% to zero. But he was like in the emotional mindset, he was just like, I'm going to call them all apologize because he probably felt a duty of care. But if you do the two-step authentication, I suppose you're still, it's like a duty of care. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - It moves it to 0%. - It's a duty thing. - You're balancing there a duty of care, and how do I remove harm from my clients, but also remove harm from my business? But he was so emotional when he called me that he wasn't thinking rationally. - Yeah. And that's why holding it out in front of you allows you to think in terms of rational - That perspective, that perspective is so important to have. Like I've always had like this irrational fear of imminent disaster. So when I was a kid, I used to come in from school, my mum would go and walk the dog and she might be 15 or 20 minutes. Most kids would just watch cartoons. I would be like at the window after 10 minutes thinking, where's my mum? Where's my mum? And then these little voices coming my head all maybe something really bad has happened to her. Maybe she's so I just slipped over and banged her head and or maybe she's lying in a field, right? I'm gonna have to go and find what my mum is. And then she reappears. I'm like, oh thank goodness. Even now with my kids, if I'm out somewhere and they go round the corner, I don't just think to myself, I'll walk around the corner and my kids will be there until I can see my kids again. And there might be parents listening to this that relate. The worst possible things that could happen to one's children is happening to my kids until I can see them. So I find myself like speeding up or saying to my friends, yeah, hey, let's go and sit over here. So we can keep it just literally so I can keep it on the kids. And then I'm a little bit of a hyper-contra yet. So I fear that. And then when my phone goes and or someone sends me a message going, hey, Jake, can we have a chat later? Like it could be someone from Whisperer or it could be someone from BT Sport or someone about the pod. I don't go, yeah, yeah, cool. I'll call you later. I'm like, oh, what could that be? My brain goes to worst case scenario. And I found myself really quickly going, sorry, it's got a really important call to make. My heart's racing 10 to the dozen. And then as soon as I find out what it is, I'm like, oh thank goodness. Where does this come from? I don't know. Because there is no skeleton in the closet. Like a friend rang me the other day. And the message that he gave me was he's separated from his wife, which is massively sad. But he rang me and said, listen, I'm really sorry to call you with this quite awkward news. I'm immediately thinking, oh my goodness, right, what on earth can this be? But in my head, it's going to end everything. It's going to cost me my marriage, my kids, my job, my house. Isn't that ridiculous? But I now have the perspective that I know this is how I am. I've had this since I was like 11 or 12 years old. I know this is how I'm made. So that is a really powerful thing for me because I then think when I feel this feeling beginning, like when my kids go around a corner, I now say to myself, listen, your kids are going to be fine playing the other side of a tree. You know yourself well enough to know that this is just irrational anxiety. It's your brain and it's just playing a trick on you. That's all this is. You talk a lot about responsibility. Yeah. There you just said, this is how I made. Yeah. That sounds like giving up responsibility. Yeah. Yeah. So then I think I'm taking, yes, you're right. You are totally right. But then I feel like I'm taking the, I'm slowly still learning even at 42. I'm taking the responsibility back by saying, right, I'm not going to allow myself to get anxious about that because I know what I'm like. If I'm the most chilled out person in the world and I find a reason to be anxious, maybe I should be worried about that. I'm going to tell them about the lift, Jake. So we're on the fourth floor here and Jake came up, knocked on the door looking pretty sweaty. And so I just took the stairs because I opened the lift and I didn't trust it. This lift, there's never been any problems with it. If you look at the stats around deaths in lifts or things. I know. It's like zero, zero, but you've got more chance. You've got more chance. I'm looking down the street. Mate, I looked at that lift. I'm like, you and me are not hanging out today. I've seen somewhat connected to what you're saying. Yeah. I think you're probably right. Yeah. Maybe I should have taken the lift because I know that everything will be fine in the lift. And I should know that I'm a bit claustrophobic. But I think it just goes to show that again, and you've spoken about this so powerfully over the years on your podcast, is that from the outside world, you'd look at someone like me and think, wow, a couple of kids, few businesses, great house, nice broadcasting career. What a lovely carefree life he must live. Every day, man, is riddled with little anxieties and little worries. Few years ago, probably almost to the point of derailing, as we've discussed on your previous podcast with me, but now knowing myself, knowing yourself is so powerful. Because only then, can you love yourself? You think that's also somewhat linked? You said earlier on about that comment you read where people are like, Jake, you shouldn't be doing a happy podcast in sad times, basically. The fact that you remembered that and you referred to it as hurting you seems also somewhat correlated to this. Yeah, I think it's a fair point. I find that a harder thing to get, I find external criticism is a harder thing for me to deal with. I find that a more difficult thing to own in my head. Why? I think because probably human beings just want people to like what we're doing. I mean, I find it confusing as well, because I think if you're being offended by my high performance podcast, like, wow, that shows the level of offense that some people can take, because I honestly want it to just be a wholly positive experience from the moment that someone clicks subscribe or starts listening to the pod till the minute they leave. I just want people to be happier, to get takeaways, to live a more empowered life, to go and be successful. I honestly believe it. You've got thousands and thousands and thousands of reviews on your podcast. Yeah. It's rated five stars. People pour their heart out telling you how much they love it, how much value brings. And we're talking about this one guy. I'm a human, I suppose, aren't I? I think you slightly over-index a little bit in terms of caring about this stuff, though. Mm-hmm. And I actually, when people asked what you're like after meeting you, I said he's just such a nice guy, such a good guy. And you are such a good guy. Maybe that is part of, I don't know, is that somewhat connected to your... I think so. Don't you think the two are completely connected, though, that if I wasn't the kind of guy that genuinely wanted people to be in a better place, I wouldn't give a shit whether someone said my podcast was useless. I'd be like, "Well, I don't care any, I'm just doing it to make some money." For me, that podcast, and I openly say this, I've not made a penny from creating and operating for an entire year. And we talk all the time that this is about the outcome, not the income. And I think the reason why it has been successful is that whether it's me or whether it's Damien, or whether it's the guys that help us to film and edit the podcast together, all of us totally believe and buy into what we're doing. Like I genuinely think that it is what people need to hear, because it is empowering people and go and do great things. Who have been... A lot of my friends messaged me after you had Johnny Wilkinson. Yeah, I bet they said that was fucking weird. It was deep, wasn't it? I had to listen to that back five times. And I did the interview, you know? What was the remarkable? I haven't heard it. What was the surprising? So the bravery really, from someone who won a rugby world cup as a certain person, and now is a completely different person, I mean, I can give you like a sort of salacious headline like he told us that winning the rugby world cup is no more important than doing the washing up. And the way that he squares that off in his mind is he says, "What are you doing if you're playing rugby? Moving your body to achieve a goal. What are you doing if you're doing the washing up? Moving your body to achieve a goal." And if I make winning the rugby world cup more important or to hold more value than doing the washing up and I'm no longer a rugby player, what am I less valuable? Because I'm no longer doing the thing that was more important. That is the sort of sentence that he was sharing with us, which I think is brilliant and brave. And I can relate to it and I can understand it. But I think for me, the real revelation that came out of the Johnny Wilkinson episode and what I really want people to understand if they listen to it is that when you strip everything back, he is someone who has totally changed from where he was when he was conquering the world. Because when he was conquering the world as a rugby player, he thought he had to stress and struggle and sacrifice and fail. And now he realizes that stressing and struggling and sacrificing and failing leads to more stress and struggle and sacrifice and fail. And actually one of the amazing things he said, he said, "When I even released a book after winning the rugby world cup, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't a spike in mental health cases from people that read that book because the book was saying, "You've got to struggle, you've got to struggle, you've got to really struggle in love to be successful." And I think that that is something that I, when we first started the High Performance podcast, I loved it when people spoke to me about the battle and the struggle and the strive for the sacrifice and the late nights and the early starts. Because I wanted people at home to go, "Yeah, man, I'm going to work harder. I'm going to commit more. I'm going to sacrifice more." Now I think that is so, so, so wrong. That is the total antithesis of what I now, the message I now want my podcast to give to people. It's tough, isn't it? Because it's hard to find someone who's been really successful at the very top of their game, whether it's business or sport, hasn't done that. Yeah. So I've contended with this. I've like, contended mentally with this idea as well. Again, when I started putting content out there, especially when I was really young, like 18, I was bragging about how late I was staying up. I was like, "Look at me at 4am and I'm still working." And I was doing that because I was trying to portray an image that I was, I don't know, a superhuman or something. And my content followed that theme. And then I got to the point where I probably flipped the other way because of public pressure. And the world now thinks that if you go on the high performance podcast and say, "Hard work really, really matters," you will take an out. You are an asshole for saying that because you're going to make people depressed and anxious and you're a hustle porn star. And then I got to another place, which is, if it's the truth, it's the truth. And I'm comfortable with the truth. And so there's so many levels of nuance. It's like the most successful people you'll encounter at the very top of their industries worked like hell to get there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will Smith, you know, so Clive Woodward or anyone in it, that's a very consistent theme. Elon Musk, right? But what I've come to do over the years is detach that from happiness first and foremost, because it doesn't necessarily mean they're happier. And then also redefine what success is because success can be being a great parent. Yeah. Or is it to you then? It has to be happiness. I feel like it has to be. That's my answer. Yeah, it has to be. Because you can still have the hard work and you can still have the sacrifice, but you don't have the struggle. That is the mistake I made. I thought the struggle was part of the hard work and it was part of the early starts and the late finishes and it was part of sacrificing some things. That's what I thought the high performance podcast was about, but it isn't. You're totally right. It's about happiness. And you can still get up at five. Like, I probably take too much on and I probably get up earlier than I need to and I go to bed later than I need to. But I am so happy. And that's what it has to be. And it can't be happiness at the detriment of others happiness. Yeah. It has to be being happy, contempt to yourself and spreading that happiness. And that again is something that Johnny Waughansen spoke about, which for me has been one of the biggest revelations, been absolutely present, absolutely totally present. So when I'm here with you, my phone is down on the floor and it's actually on Sunday, but it should be off because I need to be totally present with you right now. Because what's happened is gone. What's yet to happen, which is me going off to do a game at BT Sport is a story. I can write that in my head if I like, but I'm probably going to get it wrong because it hasn't happened yet exactly the way the day's going to go. So I need to look you in the eye right now. And I can now promise you that on this podcast, I am absolutely here with you. And it might be that in half an hour, I leave, but that's cool because when we're done, and I'm then traveling and then I'm totally present and I'm into that, that is a really important thing of that, that has again been a mindset change for me on the high performance podcast. And maybe, now I'm sitting taught to you, maybe this whole thing is like a totally selfish exercise for me, because I must have said four or five times that this podcast has re-written the way that I see the world and the way that I operate. And I think maybe, maybe I want this podcast to be messages to my kids. Like I talk already about my anxiety. Probably another of my anxieties is how much longer am I going to be on the earth? You never know what's around the corner. I love the fact that if it all ended for me as I walk out onto Shoreditch High Street today and a car comes along, can my wife say to my kids, I don't know my dad very well. Listen to these 25 episodes, listen to these 30 episodes of the high performance podcast. There's your dad, that's him.
What would you regret if you were to die today (25:40)
You walk out of here today then. Yeah. Touch glass. And bus comes, boom. Yeah. It's over. What are the things you would regret not having done more of? Traveling with the kids, probably, but they're only little, they're only young. Is it such a hard question for me? Because I think probably maintaining relationships with people has always been an issue for me. Because I felt my A-levels as you know at school. So all my mates went off to uni. So that was kind of lost because they went off having fun and I redid them. And then I've always found that one of the issues with trying to really be present is that you're totally present in that part of your world at that moment. And so I was then totally plugged into life on children's BBC. And then I got this amazing opportunity at Formula One. I was totally plugged into my life in Formula One. And then I got a big opportunity at BT Sport and I had to make that work. So then I was totally plugged into my new producers and my new colleagues. And I had a conversation with someone the other day and they said, "Who are your real friends?" It's a hard question for me once I moved beyond my wife. Because I've got four or five mates who I'm close with. But I would probably name people that live on my street, well I've only lived there for four years. I might name a couple of parents on the school run. My kids have only gone to that school for four years. I'd name a couple of people I've run my production company Whisper with but that's only been going in less than a decade. I'd now probably class Damien Hughes. There was either high performance podcast with or I've done that for less than a year. But I'm in this. And maybe that is possibly the only regret I think. But maybe I don't need, I don't know. Maybe we don't need to hold on to people for too long. Maybe we have to accept that people come and go from our lives and that's okay. And do you think it's because you haven't sort of, you said like you haven't prioritized investing in those relationships as much? I think it's because I'm always too invested in the thing that I'm doing at that moment. Like I am so absolutely committed to Whisper, Correllei Ware, the high performance podcast, BT Sport, my kids, my wife and my family. There isn't an awful lot left, right? I guess the question, the better question to ask would be then, but you're, are you happy? Because if that is the ultimate goal, then society will tell you to live, have loads of friends and do this and have this car and whatever. But then the question, the most important is, be happy. Happy to have a bit. I have the happiest of ever been. Yeah. So you've got to be doing something right. I think, yeah, I mean, I love what I do. I really like work. I like getting up early. I like having five or six things on the burn all the time. I like having a whole page of jobs that I'm going to do. Other people are not like that. My wife is the opposite. She's got four or five jobs. She's like, oh man, I feel so stressed. I don't want all this stuff. Whereas sometimes I sit there and I'm not making a list of big things on the horizon and I need to have a lot of them. And again, maybe I give a C to everything and I'd be better to have fewer things and give them all an A. Matthew McConnie tells a great story about cutting off two of his big businesses because he was giving a B to five things and he wanted to be an A in three things. Guess you've had on your podcast, all these wonderful people you've met.
Are successful people happy? (29:11)
Do you sometimes get the impression that some of them aren't that happy? Yes. Yeah. It's one of the things I've learned from doing this as well. Yeah. It's really interesting. And I totally get that everyone is everyone is in it for different reasons, aren't they? Like we spoke to Sean Wayne, who, and I would say Sean Wayne is not a household name. He's one of the most successful rugby league managers in the UK. But if someone wanted to get into the high performance podcast and they wanted like a first podcast to listen to, don't just go for the big names. I'm telling you now, Sean Wayne gave us the most moving and revelatory interview and he in his sort of broad, northern accent, he said, I'm not bothered about being happy. He said, I'm not happy. I don't care about happy. And that was not, you know, happiness was not his thing. He's come as soon as he achieved something within moments, it's about the next thing. And we sort of broke it down that he was very badly abused by his dad as a kid, you know, physically punched in the face by a big man often. And that his entire life, his entire energy comes from wanting to redress the balance. And he's now a rugby league coach, the England rugby league coach, because he has this deep-seated desire to make the lives of other people better. Now, he might personally never be happy after the story that in the path that he's been through, but he's definitely making other people happy. And he is also totally comfortable with not being happy. Now, that's not everyone's story, that's his story. But I certainly think that we like in the past, we thought that success and happiness are mutually exclusive. Would you want to be a successful? You'll be happy. How wrong are we to think like that? The very flame of success should be happiness. That should be the absolute nub, the crux of everything. What's the point otherwise, man? What is the point? I get that a lot with guests that I've had on. Some guests seem to be very neurotically obsessed with the next thing and the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And when you ask them to pause and reflect on A when this ends or why they're doing it, it always seems to flick back to their childhood. Eddie Hamm was the same. I know he's been on yours, he was on mine last week. And he, when I was talking to him about his aspirations for the future with Matt dream, he says, "I want to sell for five billion and do this and we're going to do it." And I said, "But why do I sell for five billion? You're happy now?" He goes, "Well, we should be doing, we should be selling for five billion. That's what I want to do." But why does that matter? And he goes back to his dad when he was younger. He goes back to the fact that his dad used to criticize him and didn't give him praise. And it's weird that those early moments have driven, and it's the same with me, to be honest, that they drove this obsessive desire to just keep climbing in every ending mountain. And that's the trend that I've seen in very successful guests and very successful people is it often, some kind of, it's a strange thing to say, but something that went not to plan when they're younger seems to be the reason that we will adore them and admire them. It's something that had hit them in their emotions or their wiring that sent them into an obsessive state in that. It's never as good as you think it'll be though, you know, when you get, when you achieve those things that you want to achieve, the biggest thrill I've ever had was when I spent £9,750 on a green MGF. So my first ever car, I could still remember the number plate P710 NJN, and I looked at that car, I bought it from an elderly gentleman in Colchester, and I went to his house and I said, "I've got a banker's draft." And I was working on Children's BBC and I made me, took me out to his garage. And you know those old fluorescent light strips, they flicker. I remember, still on my head, as vivid as the day it happened, they're light flicking and just lighting the car up for a second. And then it goes, and I looked at it and I was like, "I really, I cannot believe." Now, fast forward to where I am now, you know, successful TV presenter, invested in Corioliware, run a podcast, have two beautiful children who have a production company. The kids and my personal relationships are aside from this because that is on a deeper level than anything else. But in terms of material successes, nothing, and I mean nothing, man. Nothing has come close to spending less than 10 grand on a green MGF. So you've got to enjoy the journey, you've got to enjoy the travel because A, it's not as good when you get there as you think it will be. B, you spend an awful lot more time getting there than arriving. You have to answer this totally honestly. You've totally left social chain now with money in the bank that you wouldn't have had if you hadn't walked away from that business, right? What is more thrilling to you to look at your bank account now and see the number in the bank account or to know the journey you went on with social chain? Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, the bank could be double, triple, quadruple, 10 times. It wouldn't matter. Now, if I said to you, I came to you in Manchester when you went to NAB, frozen pizza, just to feed yourself, and I said, listen, dude, you can either absolutely work your nuts off for the next 10 years and buy a bill to business, hang out with people, develop some good relationships, or I just bang 100 million your bank account today. I said 100 mil, give me that. There you go. And now here you are, you've got 100 mil and the thrill came from the journey. There's something like, I'm always conscious of my own hindsight bias because it seems to be the case that every broke person goes on the journey to get rid, you know, that ends up being successful. They get the money, the guy doesn't matter. But it's a wonderful thing to say when you have it, right? Like part of the reason it doesn't matter is because there's so much of it now. It really mattered when I was stealing those pizzas, right? And when I was like, going behind the sofas in this pub, looking for the pound coins and a fan 13 pound coin, so I went back to next day and like it really, really mattered. It's in fact, it was all that mattered, you know, in that moment. So I'm super conscious of that bias that we have because, and you should be by the way, and we are the same on high performance when I say, you know, you need to have the bad times to appreciate the good times and the traumas and the difficult things will will equip you for the rest of your life. I honestly know that there are people that would listen and go, hold on a minute, middle class, white guy from a lovely village in Norfolk, yeah, you've had a few issues with mental health and bullying and as you know, the death of my grandma, which was quite tragic and things like that, you haven't really struggled. So then I think it's important that we've done that into that we haven't put out yet for the podcast with CO Colese, first ever black spring box captain. And he tells us a story in the podcast about not being able to sleep at night because his stomach hurt so much because he was so hungry. So his grandmother gave him sugar water just to get him to school so he could have a day at school and she died in his arms at eight years old. When he sits on the podcast and says, he will go through some really dark and difficult horrendous times, you know, he grew up in the most deepest poverty you could imagine in South Africa. When he sits there and goes, you can get through it and you can use it as a flame and a fire. That is, I think, when you listen. It's, um, I had to say, I also completely agree that, uh, you know, the things that have mattered most to me professionally, especially as I reflect have been doing, as you say, doing work, I love, but then like doing it with people I love, um, and a mission that's worthwhile.
Burnout in the world of successful people (36:46)
And there's this always been a, people talk about this topic of burnout a lot. Um, and, uh, I tend to believe, and I'd like to get your opinion on this, I tend to believe that your, burnout is somewhat inevitable. If you're doing things that you don't intrinsically love doing, especially if you're doing it with people you don't, you know, really, really love as well. And I feel like in any facet of your life, if you're doing it too much, you don't enjoy it. The outcome is burnout. Um, but it's, it's burnout a topic that's been sort of prevalent on your podcast. No, you know, I suppose partly the reason why burnout hasn't come up very often is because we're talking to people who are in the midst of their successes or who have been successful. And they love what they're doing. And they love what they're doing. They're full of passion. Whereas people who have perhaps tried to do something that wasn't quite right and have suffered burnout and it hasn't worked. We, we don't know about them because the burnout ended the dream. But it's so funny. That's such a good point that the fact that your, you haven't had that come up as a topic on a podcast that speaks to people who have clearly been intrinsically driven by their passion to the very top of their game. Passion is everything. You know, you said you spoke to Eddie Hearn. What's his podcast? No passion, no point. I mean, he is a great advocate of finding something that you believe in. But I also get that, again, you had a real passion for what you do. Like, I honestly, like, I have a such a deep love on a passion for all the things that I'm involved in because if it didn't, then I wouldn't do them, or I'd try and find something else. But there were times in my life where I've done certain things, like I don't, as a TV presenter, you often get asked to do like corporates, you know, standing up at awards and things like that. And you need to welcome people up on stage and shake hands on a photo. I, I find them a real struggle. I don't know why. I just don't get a thrill out of doing those things. So that's a good thing for me because I've noticed that's something I don't like. And that, for people that are listening to this thing, and you know, what, what's my passion? Like, what am I? One of the, one of the really good ways of finding you is to look at all the things that is not you. Who are the people that don't make you feel good? What are the days when you feel drained and exhausted? What are the, the trips or the phone calls or the conversations or the lunches where you leave thinking, that is every time I see that person, I feel like this. If you can see the, see the stuff that isn't good for you and strip that stuff away, you will eventually, and it might take a while, be left with who you are. And that's the time to really then think, right, what am I about? What am I as a person? Because I don't think you, you can obviously get tired and you can be in and you can have problems. But I think with real passion, I don't think you suffer, burnout, because every day I seem to get this like, so you've not got kids yet, right? But when you do, you have a, you have a, you have a, a lot of my daughters born, I love her with every piece of my heart, right? I had this real fear that when my son was born, where's the love going to come from? You do? Yeah, no, you do this a feat. That is a, it's a quite common thing for parents. Like my daughter had every single bit of love in my body. So my wife, obviously, we're, we're really super close, but a love for your child is so different. It feels very different from the moment that child is born. And I could not have loved my daughter, not 1% more. So then my son is about to be born. My daughter's gone off to the grandparents and I'm watching my wife in labor thinking, I've gotten nothing left for, for Sebastian. What's this about? Sebastian's born. And within two seconds, I love him equally. So there's no diminishing of the love for my daughter, not one bit, but all this new love has just appeared out of nowhere. And I could love my son exactly the same. How is that possible? And it's exactly the same when you have a real passion or a real love for something like every day that I get up and I'm making phone calls or I'm having conversations or I'm a, you know, brainstorming or blue sky thinking or thinking about guests or heading to do live television. It's all filled up. It's filled up again. I'm full. I'm ready to go. You know, I don't feel like I'm like the cup is draining slowly because I love the stuff that I'm doing. And that's a great point because I think people tend to believe that passion is a singular thing. Yeah. And they're searching for it aimlessly like it's a used to reg hidden somewhere. Yeah. And you can drain your passion. You can have multiple passions. And yeah. And you know, you've met a ton of high profile people on your, you know, from your presenting career, but also from your podcast, I'm sure you've come across a bunch of ourselves as well.
How do you deal with assholes (41:18)
Yes. I'm not going to ask you to name them. Holly Tucker, when I put that in that with it, you know, Holly Tucker, she created not on the high street.com. She said I'd rather have a whole than an asshole. In other words, I would rather hang out with no one than hang out with someone that I don't like, which I, which I thought was a, which I thought was a good one. But then Matthew McConaughey said, do you want an asshole or an idiot? Give me the asshole, because at least you know where you stand. Really? Yeah. Interesting. So he was like, at least, and I do relate to that somewhat. The people that I really struggle with in my life, other people who one day you see them and they're like, you best mate, the next day it's like you've never met them before. I do struggle with that. I like to know where I stand with people. I'm cool. If you want, if you and me want to have like a distant professional relationship and you'll send me a text saying happy new year, hope the podcast goes well, maybe hook up sometime in 2021. And we never see each other socially and you come back on high performance. I come back on here and we use to and fro a bit professionally. That's absolutely, that is cool. What I don't want is, hey, let's have a coffee. Do you want to let me up in London? Yeah, great. Oh, man, it's so nice to see you. So how's things? How's life? You should be chatting a bit more. Have you got a partner? How's your dog? How's your life? And then you hear nothing for six months and you think whatever happens to that dude, and then they reappear again. I'm so sorry for not texting you back. There's the truth. I feel like just chatting. There's the, there's the difficult thing for me, not knowing what I stand with people. I, you know, I don't want to be everyone's best friend, but I do want meaningful relationships with people and they can be meaningful from a distance or super intense. On that point of our source as well, I think, what made you ask that? I just wanted to think, do you know what it is? I remembered one day, you meet a lot of people when you do this podcasting thing, and you have an initial perception of how they're going to be, and then you meet them. And sometimes, you know, sometimes there are souls. I actually don't think I've had anyone on the podcast that was an asshole, but I have had experiences. I remember this one day I got on this plane. I think I was flying Emirates or Virgin or something. And in front of me, I saw that guy from the food guy, the guy that eats all the food on TV. Someone give me his name. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Everyone on the podcast is giving me a kind of food. Man versus food guy. Yeah, man versus food. I'm in a show, but I don't know his name. Yeah. And I don't care about saying this. And we run this huge food channel at social chains. So we have, you know, tens of millions of followers on a food channel. So I text the food team. I'm like, Oh my God, he's on the plane. They said, I'll go up and ask him a question, which is a question we always ask guests on our food channel. So I went over to asking this question. He was sat in business, our sat in business as well. And he's just, he just, he looks at me and goes, listen, give me a second. Okay. And I'm like, whoa. So I walked back to my chair and I have to tell the 500 people in this like company group. Oh, so I went up to him and this person that you all absolutely love. He's just custom me out. And he will never know the impact he had on me, all the 500 people that I then told. And also the, you know, hundreds of 1000 people that I'm telling right now. Um, if you got to the point, no, where you're brave enough to call that sort of stuff out, because I think that is the important thing. When he's when he does it to his face. Yeah. For me, that would be like ego, because he go from you. Yeah. It would be like, do you know who the fact I am? Or it'd be like, but why are you saying that? See, I, for me, the piece was like no reaction. Yeah, because there was no win. There was no win in me calling him out. I wasn't going to win. So the win for me was saying, okay, no worries. And we're going back to my chair and also not letting it ruin my day. Um, but I, but I'm sure you, the reason I asked you the question is because you have tons of guests, you know, presenting career, but also your podcast. When you encounter an asshole, um, I guess how do you deal with it? You just know that you're there for a stop and not a stay, I think. And you, um, does it break your heart a little bit sometimes? Um, we know it's someone that you, uh, good mind. Yeah, I suppose so. I suppose I don't worry too much about it. Cause I just think, you know what, you can, you're just not for me. And also like, who am I to sort of judge whether their behavior is arse-holery? If it's clearly a rude and unfair and unkind, absolutely, I, I now feel like I'm 42, and I'm a parent. And I want my kids to operate in a world where, um, they can be themselves and they can't be bullied or pushed around. I think we're, I'm old enough now and I definitely wasn't like this a few years ago where I can hold my chin up and say, that behavior is really not acceptable. Would you call to me? Yeah, you would. But I wouldn't do it in an arrogant look at me. I, I'm a sort of being a dick, where I just say, listen, I just think that behavior isn't acceptable. Have you done that? Um, yeah. To someone, someone I work with you? In your presenting career? Uh, yeah. Name and address. I'm joking. And actually, do you know what you find is that often, I've done it twice and both times they've gone, yeah, I'm really sorry that he's, that he's actually unacceptable. I mean, we, we had an interesting experience because my wife used to work in production. So her, she was a production secretary, which is not very high up the ladder of people in television. And I was a presenter. So she would be looking after, um, security, taxis, tickets, logistics, clothing, call times, all the stuff that makes television happen, but it's not the glamorous side. And the number of times that I would say, Oh, I met this person today. Aren't they great? And she'd be like, really? And then we would meet those people. And I'd be like, Oh yeah, I think you know my wife Harriet. We're like, Oh, right. Yeah. Hi. Because they were real. You guys love to come around sometime for some food and Harriet's like that's not how they were. Really? When they thought I was just sorting out their travel. And that is the definition of an article. Yes. I think it is because you just treat everyone the same man. And they're treating you well because you can potentially benefit them in some way. Oh no, it's weird. Isn't it like why I've got a job on the television. Why treat me any differently? Because you're connected and you can't deny. That is what really annoys me. We see that and I saw that in my business over the years. And I came to believe that even with me leaving the business, it won't break the business. But I do believe that like, so I believe one person leaving a business doesn't break it. And you can apply this to your relationships, your life, your friendship circle. But an asshole staying can me leaving the business. I don't actually think will be as detrimental to a couple of us all staying in the business, not that they're irony, but. And don't you mean? Yeah, don't you think though, like this is like it sounds naive and childish and childish probably from a 42 year bloke that has a decent career and runs a few businesses. But I honestly think that we do have the power to make the world positive and happy despite all the issues, because all you have to do is worry about your immediate circle. And that is why I get frustrated with people who spread negativity and criticism. And I just, I've just got no space in my life now for negativity from people. Because I just think if, let's say that I know seven people, and I just say, you know, I'm going to really radiate a positive energy, I'm going to lift them up. I'm not going to be critical. I'm going to do everything I can to make them feel like a million dollars. The only agreement is that they have to do the same. And you say that to those people, listen, I'm going to do this thing. I'm going to be really super positive and I'm going to do everything I can to help you. And if you ever need something, I'm going to be the person that comes and helps you. And all I'm asking is that you do it for the people in your circle. Be the change. I quickly, I would radiate. So my seven. So if I go, if each of them goes to seven, do you know what I mean? Yeah, no, it just feels stupid. That's what karma is. Yeah. I mean, I don't believe in where she washy karma is and like, oh, if I help a lady, then someone's going to help me in the future. But I think from a logical perspective, if I help everyone I encounter, maybe they'll be more helpful. And that can make its way background to maybe my niece, you know, but you know, so true. I just I can't see any because any benefit, any benefit to criticism and negativity and like driving other people down, someone that feels better for driving someone else further down is like, for me, the absolute epitome, they are the worst of the worst. You never get jealous, be completely honest. Yeah, I get jealous. But I only ever get jealous through comparison.
Do you get jealous? (49:45)
And that is ridiculous. You know, it's the nasty is it the nasty, jealous where you're like, why have they gotten? Yeah, probably. Yeah. But you got but I think that is innate. I think that is almost there. I am giving up responsibility again for someone that talks about 100% responsibility. But I think it's innate in human nature to compare and to contrast and look at someone else. So it's not a very long experience for me. I will look at someone and I'll go. But hey, listen, I'm so happy and I've got all this. I'm going to actually sometimes I look at life as a graph and you literally don't know where life is going to take you. So let's say like the people that I now sit with in a TV studio, like I sit with, they say when I when I had Robin Bampercy, Stephen Jayward and Rio Ferdinand were all the pundits on BT Sport, there was a time where all three of those were three of the most famous footballers in the country earning phenomenal sums of money competing on the world stage representing their country. And I was a guy post a level failure trying to sort of find a job and earning £6,000 a year. And there was a time where they were there and I was there and our graphs over the time have done whatever's happened. Look where I've ended up sitting next to them on a TV studio. Now it may well be that they go up there again and then something happens to me and I go down here or it might be that I do that and they do that. But you never know where that graph is going to go. And that is what I think is that for me is one of the most exciting things about this world that we live in. Like you are only one step away from a phone call where someone goes, Hey, guess what? And your graph goes, So don't worry about where other people are on that graph because it might be in five years time. You're right alongside them. I guess that's where that that hate a lot of the hate comes from. So if you take the jealousy feelings that even you have as one of the nicest people I know, and you just, you know, times it by 10. And that's the, you know, people feel a certain way about their lives and how their lives are going. Yeah, that's because it's it's chucked in our faces all the time. What is Instagram if it isn't a tool for comparison? What is it? Why are you having a great day and we, I and I, we're jealous of that. I'm not jealous of it. We're guilty of it making other beautiful jealous of what we do. We went out for a, we went for a couple of days away as a family to a lovely hotel called Clifton. And it was lovely, but the kids for some reason were just badly behaved. And it does happen sometimes. And we had this meal, it was breakfast actually, and they were like, it took ages for the food to come. And the kids were like climbing the wall and I said, I'm just saying to the waiter, because I'm really sorry, but like we've been waiting for 20 minutes, which is fine for me and my wife, but the kids, yeah, they need to, they, and it was a posh hotel where you're trying to see, you get to just stay at the table, sit and sit nicely, don't make too much noise. And then at the end of it, I was a stressful man. And I said, Hey, I tell you what, the family will want to know where we are. So I'll get my phone out and I go kids, kids, just smile. And we take a photo and we put it, we have a family, what's up group with Harriet's mum and dad, my mum and dad, all the cousins, all the aunts and uncles, right? And we're all smiling, everything looks great. Just had a lovely breakfast at the hotel. I said, and then we get loads of messages back. Like for people like my sister going, Oh, you're, you're like, always looks perfect. And my brother going, Oh, another great day for you. And now I think actually, yes, like, I've just given them an absolute falsification of what my Sunday morning at the Clifton house was like, that was a stressful hour. And I've taken the one thing that wasn't stressful. Why have I put that in the group? Why have I just gone, Hey, guys, hope you're having a good Sunday call. We've just had a shit half an hour here having some breakfast, but hey, don't we all? That's, and that's what we all do all the time. Why else do all the people you follow on Instagram, put the things they put out there? I think the world is somewhat flipped, is flipping back the other way in the sense that when we all started Instagram, it was this new thing you had these filters. And it was like, show the best holiday you've ever had in your life to the world. That was kind of the, that's the thing you'd get the rewards for. And that represents in terms of being able to relate to that, or it's like 0.0% of the viewers life, like most of our lives, the 99% of our lives, as I've said in this podcast, before is like eating a pot noodle in bed. And now I see that the win with personal branding and building an Instagram page is the antithesis of showing that is like, I've just woken up with my face covered in spots. In fact, the last, you know, two podcasts ago, we had Christian here, who's like a superstar influencer on Trippin' Anne. And I was trying to understand why her community so engaged with her, so engaged with her versus even like, even compared to mine or other people's. And it's because she wakes up in the morning, she goes, my face is covered in spots. Oh my god, I'm not going to put the filter on today. And you see the spots on her face and stuff like that. And then she'll cry on her Instagram story because her best friend lost her mother. And you really can resonate with that. And also the amount of supply on social media of that realness is low. Demand is super high because it represents the 99% of our lives. Supply is super low. And Joe Hicks is the same. He will tell you everything, I feel like shit today and people just, and that's the thing I think you can form a bond with, a real deep bond. So even as I reflect on my Instagram now, I said to my team earlier this week, I'm like, I need to like go on my Instagram story more and do a lot of the stuff that I do on the podcast, which is just like telling you the shit stuff too. And so I said, if you want to build a personal brand, I'm like, you know, you really need to get comfortable with telling you what to do. Would that make you happy though? Let's go back to where we began. Would it make me happy? Yeah, because I know that it would not make me happy. My Instagram isn't a lie. It is real, but it's real with the things I'd use to share basically. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? By the way, go after that lunch. Can I? I'm not kidding. This one actually worked this morning. So it's what is it this one? This is very fun. I had one. I was present for you though, when I saw that you got fuel to the city. It's a just great signature. I was panicking it. I'd undone it and I was going to flip fuel all over your lovely rug in here. Doesn't matter. That'll be a cool piece of promo. Nutritionly complete drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's great, man. So I've eaten nothing today. What's the time? It's vegan, 20 past one. So this is perfect for me. Now this is my lunch. I'm on breakfast. Try and let me know what you think. This is my favorite flavor of all. It's good. And if you have this all day, which I don't know if that's to be recommended, but all of your sort of essential minerals are in there, vitamins, high in protein. So it's 20 grams of protein at the same time. Slow releasing carbs, spill a bit on your really lovely glass table. It's fine, don't mind. Low sugar, gluten free. Yeah, it's great. That's nice. It's good. Lovely. Yeah. And I drink it because I skip meals. That's how I first came. Well, I'm trying to intermittently fast because I've seen other people's six packs on social media and they make me feel at me. Okay. They make me feel like I just need to, you know, right? Why do you feel the need to share more of yourself on Instagram?
Connecting with our audience (56:52)
Like so, yeah, so what's the benefit? The benefit is if I share more of my truth, all the tough stuff, which is pretty much why I started the podcast in the first place, I feel that I'm helping a lot of people. And do I enjoy helping people and getting and helping them overcome their problems? Yes. I mean, but you did already on this podcast. Yeah, but I don't do it on Instagram. And I think that do I want to have a deeper connection with modems on Instagram? Yes. What am I doing on Instagram? Predominantly just posting quotes, to be honest. So if I want to have a deeper connection with my audience on Instagram, then I should go deeper with them as I do on this podcast because the podcast audience are like a cult, you know, they're super engaged because of the depth and the realness. So I think it would make me happy in the long run. There's a must be reason I don't do it. That's a good point, Nis. I mean, it's been a huge revelation for me doing a podcast because when you're a football presenter, you don't get nice messages on Instagram. You don't get like an engaged core saying this resonated with me, that resonated with me, partly because you're not the story. You're there to facilitate former pros to be the superstars. I mean, I like in my job on the football to like be in a referee. Like, if I'm not seen, that's probably a good thing. I make them look good. I make them feel good. And people, let's be totally frank, tuning to watch a game. More people will tune in for Man United than will tune in for Norwich City. More people won't tune in for me because I'm just the facilitator. Whereas with the podcast, the nicest thing has been this genuine conversation connection, like creation of a proper community. And that's been a totally new thing to me. Like, I thought I knew everything that was to know about broadcasting and with a million followers on Twitter and then Instagram account and running a TV production company and being a TV presenter, I knew what it was about. I knew how to connect to people. Never known anything like it. Never seen feedback like it. Never had fulfillment like it. It's amazing. It is amazing. It's something crazy about podcasting though, versus all other channels. I think it's that depth. The messages you get, if I post an Instagram, I'll get a, I can totally relate. The podcast, you get a like essay about, you know, they return with their story. Yeah. And it's like depth, it gets depth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally see what you're saying. And it's, it stops it from like, because when I first started the high performance podcast, I wanted it just to be me opening up amazing people to benefit other people. And I will now admit part of the thrill of that podcast is seeing the response and seeing, seeing the reaction. And I'm, I'm not foolish enough to think that isn't my ego at work. It absolutely is my ego that likes it. But it's amazing. When you see, hi, I listened to your podcast and I changed jobs after wanting to do it for 20 years. Hi, I listened to your podcast. And I've quit doing something that's been bad for me for my whole life. I've reached out to create relationships we've allowed to die from listening to our podcast, bloody hell. What's the most emotional moment you've had with a guest that you can recall on the podcast? Is there a particular moment that, you know, yeah, there's quite a few times that I've kind of, that I've sort of edged towards tears. And I think, you know, someone that I've already mentioned Sean Wayne, you know, when when someone talks to you about that sort of the devastation of being physically abused by a parent. And I suppose what was emotional for me was the, was the learning during the interview with Sean. And I knew very little about him before we spoke, the learning that all of the good stuff he's done, you know, he talks about if he's got an issue with one of his players, he doesn't just have a chat with them after training, he turns up at their house in the evening and says, what's the deal, man? How can I help? How can I solve this? And he is now a parent himself and a really loving and caring parent to have started life that Sean had. And to feel a whole life to be about helping other people that was like, that was a hugely moving conversation with him. Yeah, I think all of the guests I've had that have moved me in the same way. It's almost identical. It's nice, isn't it? I don't know whether you're like this with podcasts, but I love that we have footballers on and don't talk about football. We have rugby players on and don't really talk about rugby. We just talk about it. My podcast is a podcast about life, exactly like this one is.
Tips for starting a podcast (01:01:36)
And we were talking before we started recording today about the desire to try and avoid the typical talking points with guests. And I think this is maybe just a general, a general point for people that are trying to start a podcast. There are so many podcasts out there. And in order to, what would your tips be then for someone who's considering starting a podcast from what you've learned in your 30 or you've recorded in total of 50 so far, but it's 30 that live. What did you give to someone who's thinking of starting their own? First of all, go for it. Because I honestly, was this close to not doing it. The great thing about podcasts that I didn't have in my life was ownership. So I'd spent my career working for Children's BBC, working for Formula One and the BBC, working for the Premier League on BT Sport. And I sat down with someone and they said, "How's your career?" And I said, "Yes, great. I'd really happy. I love doing the football. I love being with the players and everything." And they said, "If you've got a phone call tomorrow to say that that had ended, what would you be left with?" And I was like, "Mmm, I don't know. I have to go and find another job." And I said, "So what do you own of all these years of graft and hardware? What's yours?" And the answer was nothing. And then the next question, they obviously knew what they were talking about. I said, "What do you really want to do?" And I said, "Well, I don't really care if Liverpool beat Man United or Norwich City beat Ipswich, not really, but I love the effort and the grafts and I love sitting with the pundits. I love the way that Rhea Ferdinand and Stephen Gerard watch a game of football. I love how they turn up looking smart or they bring their own food in little plastic containers still all the day that I first met Lewis Hamilton. And he walked in the room and he took off his watch and he didn't just chuck his watch on the side. He got it and he closed up the clasp and he put it down and he moved it and he goes, "Oh, brace it off." And he went, and he took his... And I just looked at it and I thought, "Ah, that desire for perfection, that elite mindset mentality." I said to them, "That's what I want. I want to speak to elite performers and elite thinkers because I think that everyone can benefit from that. Everyone can think and operate and perform better because there's no tricks, there's no secrets like you just need to have the passion and go out and do it." And they said, "Well, then that's what you should do to a podcast." So that was it, right? Great. I'm doing a podcast. And then I mentioned it to a couple of people and they went, "Why? You can't do a podcast." I was like, "Why?" Because everyone does podcasts. There's literally so many podcasts. You can't, you're not going to make a splash. There's thousands of podcasts. And then I rang an old friend of mine from Children's BBC and she is... I don't have ever really ever told her this, but she's the reason I do the podcast, Fern Cotton, who does Happy Place. I said, "Hey, I'm thinking I'm doing a podcast." Now, she is such a nice person. She is not the sort of person to go, "Oh, hold on. Arrival podcast." She'd never even consider. She would, "Oh my God, you'd be great at doing a podcast." spoke about what it was about. And I said, "But my issue is I just think that there's loads of them out there." And then she was the one that said, "Look, we worked together at Children's BBC here. Television had been invented for 50 years. There must have been hundreds of channels, thousands of programs. Did you think I'm not going to work in Telia because there's already loads of TV programs?" "No, of course you didn't. You just thought, well, I'm going to work in Telia and make my mark." She said, "You need to do exactly the same thing with your podcast." So the first thing is you have to do your podcast. You have to go out and do it. But the second-- That's the biggest challenge though, isn't it? Starting. It's just in every facet of life. Yeah. Entrepreneurs contact me and I'm like, "The biggest risky face of all the things that might be perfect things." I think you can do a podcast risk-free though. You can spend a very minimal sum of money, if any money at all, on the equipment. 100%, but you can learn. You can learn so cheap. You could do a great podcast in terms of sound quality with less than 100 pounds. The risk though is overthinking it to the point of procrastination, to the point of parallelizing yourself. I think in all facets of life, business, my DMs are full of people that are like, "Steve, I want to start a business. I have an idea. I want to start a podcast or this project." But there's just this one problem which is preventing me starting. And I always say the biggest risk of the success of your business, the number one thing that's going to stop you becoming a billionaire, honestly, is the probability that you'll just never start. And also, that you'll think you need all of the answers to all of the questions you have before you start. Well, I don't know this. I don't have the funding. When I started my business, I was 18, didn't know the word entrepreneur, no money, went on Google and typed in how to build a website, spent three months googling it. But that was me starting. And I think it's the same with podcasting. My first episode was dog shit. I was downstairs in some-- That's my cause. In telly, we say the first is the worst. That's the way it is. It's the way it has to be. But the point is, you've got going, you started. And I think you need to begin, and then you need to be consistent, and you need to keep going, and don't expect instance success and instant gratification. But I think the other thing for it, I get a lot of people sending me letter saying I want to be on the television. And I always reply in the positive, because I always say, well, someone has to be doing my job in 20 years time. When I'm 62, I will not be presenting the Premier League on BT Sport. I just won't be. Someone has to be. It could be you. Why not make it you? Make the decision now that it's going to be you that's the next well-known sports TV broadcaster. And then I'll remind them that when I started out in 1998, '99, to be on the telly, to be a broadcaster, you actually needed a job. That was not very easy to go and get. Now, you can pick up your phone and you're a broadcaster. You can have a YouTube channel. You can have an Instagram handle. You can have a Twitter page. You can have a podcast. As long as you've got a passion, because you then funnel everything into that passion, and everything feeds everything else. So the Instagram handle points people towards the podcast. The podcast is fantastic. So people go and watch the podcast that you've recorded on YouTube, and then you start to build an audience there, and you make a little bit of money, and it slowly starts to build. Be consistent, but have the passion, have the thing that's different. Like, I will get maybe 10 times a week. Hi, Jake. I just wonder whether you would come and be on our podcast. We just want to talk about your journey and how you got to where you are now. It'd be really great to have a chat. You roll your eyes. And it's like, man, you've got to be better than that. Everyone can go and have a conversation about your journey and the highs and the lows and the struggles. What's the niche? What's the thing? Tell me what someone would have to say to you that has basically no listeners, or is starting out that would make you go on their podcast. It's because I cash in. Be absolutely, definitely about their passion. And I have done plenty of podcast interviews in the last year, where there hasn't been a big audience, but I've really loved the fact that the person has come to me and known a lot about me, and said, I really want to explore this particular area with you. I think just the broad brushstroke of, can we just talk about your inspiration and talk about your upbringing and talk about how you've got into broadcasting? Shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, yeah. Let's like, I'm a bit like this now and everything I do, like even while I'm broadcasting, I'm not interested in Can Man United Wind the League. I am much more interested in looking at one of the players, Marcus Rashford, for example, and having a really proper deep conversation with Paul Skoll's and Rio Ferdinand. Explain to me how hard it is to concentrate on football when he's got so many people criticizing him on social media for doing the school dinners, or how difficult is it for him to run out to old traffic and really perform at a high level when he hasn't got 80,000 people? How much of a difference does it really make to have the crowd at old traffic there, inspiring you and driving you on? That is a much, much more of an interesting conversation for me, because it feels much more real than just the general stuff. So that would be my advice to people is make it really specific, make it really passion-based. And there's that big discussion about having, you want them to show evidence that they've done their research on you.
How to contact high performance people (01:09:41)
So, because listen, people send emails, invite you into a podcast, or DMs, whatever, but most of our lives and the success of our lives, as least as I can recount it, my journey has been predicated on me knowing how to ask someone for something that they really didn't have a huge clear incentive to give me, but asking in the right way. So we're not just talking about inviting Jake onto podcasts here, we're talking about how you ask for something, how you knock on a door that maybe is a bit above you at that point. I think that often you get a lot of respect, they're just for asking the question. And I think, I think the other thing is for people to remember when they're in our position, you've been in that position as well, like you have been there, and don't expect them to be perfect by the way, like everything that you now find easy about sitting here and recording this podcast once you didn't find easy. You found it a struggle. That's the really important point. And those people are often right at the beginning of their journey and they're finding their way. And why can't you give them 10 minutes, even if you can't go on their podcasts, Stephen, why can't you just go, do you know what? Just give me your number. I'll give you 10 minutes, 10 minutes of your day is nothing. Could change your entire life. So there's a lot of people asking for 10 minutes. This is a problem. And if you add up, there's then we don't have much time left for anything else. And I sometimes think to myself, if I gave all of these people 10 minutes, I wouldn't be the type of person that they'd be asking for 10 minutes. You can't do stuff you don't have time to do, but you probably can do 10 minutes. Once in a while. A couple of times a day. Yeah. The thing that annoys me with the DMs that I get to know while. Yeah, a couple of times a day. Yeah. And I do. Yeah. Do you know, I'm doing it anyway for like, I told you about my friend that called me with a problem. So I give him 20 minutes to solve the problem with him. I'm doing that all day every day. And my employees will at social chain now that I've left contact me more than I think they did it when I was there, asking me how to solve problems with each other, with the company, what should we be doing? So I still feel like I'm mentoring a lot of people. Don't always look for like the instant value and stuff. No, I know that when someone rings you and goes, um, Steven, I know I'm at social chain and I know I wasn't very high up the chain at social chain, but I don't know you've left. I fucking love what you did. Just a couple of quick questions, right? Yeah. You might look at it and go, Do you know what? I remember that person, I just haven't got the time I got to get in a gym. Right. But let's say you did. Yeah. What you've done is you've seen the value to you in that moment of giving them 10 minutes of your time. What about if that person then goes on and thinks they want to? I've been so impressed by what I've done at social chain. I'm going to set up my own business. I'm going to do this and suddenly the snowball effect comes and then in a couple of years time you get the phone calls, Steven, I'd love you to go on the advisory board of this business. I set up because I actually set it up because you gave me a bit of inspiration a few years ago. There's the value you never see. Yeah, it's invisible. If you don't give them the few minutes at that time, I call it handy out man. Invisible PR. Yeah. You never see it in the moment. You never see the impact it's having, but when it matters the most, it will show up. So for example, the guy I told you about from Man vs. Food, we have a huge food channel and we're looking for hosts for this food channel that would potentially get paid a ton of money. In that one moment, he will never see the value of giving you 10 seconds at that moment and then with no value. Yeah. But now he's clearly going to be excluded from the process of deciding who hosts the food channel just because of that 10 seconds. They'll never know because it's invisible PR. But I tell you what does make me annoyed is I'll get messages from someone and I'll say, Steve, I swear to God, I got this message. I screenshot it and send it to my friends because it's synonymous of the wrong approach. Steve, I'd love to know how you did what you did. I've produced thousands of videos, podcasts, interviews, blogs on how I did what I did. There's actually a video called like how I bought 200 million pound company, whatever. And for me, when someone says that, I think you don't actually want to know because if you really wanted to know, you would have put that into Google or you would have put more effort in. You're being super lazy. And then I said to the guy, I saw it, I was, you know, fine, got the video where I explained how I did what I did. And I sent it to him. He goes, you know, you should write a book. Have a book. It's like, you know, like, if maybe he just doesn't yet know what he doesn't know. And if you showed him these, these little bits in 10 years time, he'd be embarrassed. And maybe if you looked at some of the early interactions you had with people, you'd be embarrassed about what you'd, I know I would some of the emails I sent. I've, I, so I've a really old Hotmail account that I've had literally since the beginning of time. And I don't use it anymore. But sometimes it's quite cathartic for me to go back into that Hotmail account, zoom back to the very beginning. We're talking about emails I was sending in 2001. And I'm surprised, man, I get my tone wrong, and I'm a bit bossy and I'm a bit pushy. And I think this doesn't sound or seem like me. Maybe. I just think benefit of the doubt, man, always benefit of the doubt. And I'm not saying you need to bust your balls and spend two days giving this person a private seminar, but definitely do. I mean, I think it's great. You reply it and just reply and go, listen, here's all the stuff that I've done. But when he replies and says you should write a book, A, it's given you a compliment, B, you might be a bit nervous. Do you know the problem is, so there's thousands and thousands of people like this on a weekly basis. Yeah. So my decision as to who to help or to who to gauge with is based on the message they send. And if someone says, some people will message me, go, so, so what is so chain? Come up like if you just Googled it, if you if you clicked on the word in my bio, there's a description of exactly what it is. But people will still do and for me, that's laziness. Because if I like, I can't think of a point in my life where if I wanted to know whether I was 16 or 26, whether if I wanted a piece of information, I would have just my attempt at getting it would have just been to message the person, you know, the public figure where I have to say. So how did you win that Formula One championship, Lewis? I would have at least tried, you know what I mean? Do you think there's an issue here with them? Like with a social media now, there's a complete lack of formality. So like when you and I were growing up and we wanted to run a business that someone would set up and solve hundreds of millions, you literally could not get to that person. And then it was a real graft to get there. So by the time you did manage to get any managers for some CEO of some big business, it had been such a journey, you weren't going to lose the opportunity or waste the opportunity because it had taken you two or three months just to get to the point and be able to send something. Part of the issue now is that people who want information from you, literally, this is how long it takes. Stephen Bartlett, direct message, hi, hi, Stev, hi, Stephen. Can I know about your business? Right, that's taken me 30 seconds. That's how long it is. So that's why the quality of effort is so low because because they're just used to it. That's how we now communicate with each other. But then the other thing is 20 years ago, when you were trying to get out of a CEO of a big business, there was quite a good filtration process. So the other time you got the email address of that guy or that woman at the top of that business, it was a journey. You would have had 20 not backs, 10 or 15 setbacks, blah, blah, blah, blah. So actually the person that got those email addresses were the grafters, man, and the ones that were finding the route and finding the path. And it shows though that the most important thing, one of the 2020 growth hacks for your career is knowing how to ask. Because everyone has now got the email of the DM, but there's a real art in knowing what to say when you're in there. I know that people like you are getting a lot of messages every day, all of the same quality. But that's great because it's easy to stand out. If you want to do a good thing, if you send me a voice note, that jumps up in the queue. If the voice note is well researched, as you say, jumps up in the queue further, if you're asking, here's the thing for me. It's like, if you're asking me for something and you're making some attempt to acknowledge the fact that you know I don't have a lot of time, that also jumps up in the queue. Because I think this person's a little bit more savvy and it's been more realistic. But yeah, it makes a huge difference. I think, Carl, I want to talk about this.
What are you working on? (01:17:52)
So I wear brands. I receive these lovely sunglasses in the post. And as I said to you before we got on air, I usually look a little bit weird in sunglasses, but this pair of sunglasses, and I'm just not just saying this, and I actually said this behind your back as well. So this is how you know it's legit. I actually think I look quite cool. You do look good. And I would never wear sunglasses like this normally, because I couldn't find the right shape. Tell me all about coral and what this is. This is your first sort of significant investment? Yeah, it's the first time I've ever invested in a business really. Obviously, Whisper Group is different because I was a founder and we set that up together. But I've wanted for a long time to do what I can to help people who are perhaps in a position where I can have some influence on their lives. So about a year ago, I set up a scholarship with the UEA, the University of East Anglia in Norwich. It's pretty simple. When people apply for the film and TV course, their means tested. So they have to fill in a form so we can find out their family income. And if the family income is below a certain level, I will pay five grand a year every year that they're at university. So 15 grand over the time of their course to make it affordable for them to go to uni. So it's literally my way of finding people who wouldn't get a chance in the TV industry. It's similar to the ethos we have at Whisper. We want to lift up people that are underrepresented. And I think there's amazing TV talent out there. And they literally will never get the opportunity to have a TV career purely for financial means. And that really makes me sad. So I set that up and then I had this great relationship with the UEA and they introduced me to a young guy called George Bailey. And he's a 19 year old student. He's 20 now at the UEA. And he had this idea for recycled eyewear. And it is literally taking fishing nets out the sea, taking plastic out of landfill and turning them into eyewear. And I said, you know what, George? That's a really good idea. I really like it. But it will be everywhere already because it's so simple. Because when we sort of ran through the numbers, there's something like 9 million pairs of eyewear sold in the UK every year, almost all of them virgin plastic covered in lacquer full of glue, full of metal, bad for the environment, not doing any good for the planet at all. So I sort of heard what he said and thought, this will be happening already. And I was actually in London for a meeting with my agent in West London. I thought the perfect place for recycled sustainable eyewear brand is West London. So I went into all of the high street eyewear places that you could possibly imagine. You know, David Clullo and Sunglass is hot and all of these others on Oxford Street and Bond Street are in that area. And I said the same thing every time I walked in high, can I see your range of recycled eyewear blank faces? Can I see your green range, your sustainable range? The same. Nothing response. And I was straight on the phone to George. I said, listen, we need to make this happen. We really need to make this happen. And we're not the only brand in the world making eyewear from recycled material. But we're the only brand who have gone and got our own eyewear designer. So it's original designs, handmade in a factory in Italy, we then offset all the carbon. So when that gets delivered to you, there's not been a single hit on the planet from the carbon. And the plastic has been taken out of the world to create those. The lenses are infinitely recycled. And we have a system where you send the lenses or the whole eyewear back to us and we can recycle them. So it all goes again. So the phrase I use is planet positive. It's not just like not putting pollution into the planet. It's actively removing plastic and turning it into something that you would otherwise have gone and purchased. And look, we're a startup, we're small. It'll be a slog and it'll be a battle. But I wouldn't have got involved like everything else I've been talking to you about if I didn't passionately believe that those are the answer. None of us go shopping now without a plastic bag in our hand already or a reusable tote bag or whatever. But none of us think twice before we go and buy a pair of sunglasses and coral eyewear. I want to be the answer. The case there, that's made from plastic. Of this case, well, this case, that one. Yeah. So that's recycled plastic, the cloth inside, recycled plastic. You'd never know would you? No, one of the things that really struck me as well is how high quality it all feels. Like it feels super luxury like the case and the. Well, that's the thing we want. We also didn't want people to think, yeah, I want to sort of help the environment, but I'll have to look a bit rubbish. We actually want people to think I can still buy a really nice high end, high quality bit of eyewear. You got the little note there from George. Yeah. What's said on this says, Hey, there, thank you so much for choosing coral and our vision to make the eyewear industry kinder to our planet. Smiley face, George. That's super nice. Yeah. No, I was, you know, I was, I was nervous because when friends send me things, then you probably sometimes I don't. Yeah. And I'm known for being really honest with my friends and saying, Oh, I didn't really like this about it or whatever, because I just think the treat sets you free. And that's what people really value. As you said earlier, it's like the critique is often more valuable at certain stages than just total praise. What might you said earlier that I has become incredibly important in my mindset these days as a word consistency?
The importance of consistency (01:22:51)
Yeah. Maybe from meeting exceptional guests, maybe just from understanding the root cause of my own accomplishments. But I used to think that intensity was the answer. But if you look at all of the success that I've had, whether it's getting a million followers on Instagram or social channel, whatever, it was, it was that word. And I never really appreciated the importance of that word up until recently. I think it was one of the right in my book. What have you learned about consistency? I've learned exactly as you have that consistency is the root of all good stuff, because if you find something that works for you, you have to do it consistently. Like I used to say consistently relentless. I've regret the use of the word relentless a little bit now. I do think you have to be relentless, but I now change it to you have to be consistently, happily, relentless. And if you can be consistently, happily, relentless, I don't think you will go far wrong because you'll be doing a passion project, which is what makes you happy. You will be consistently doing things and consistency is absolutely key for people to understand what you're about. And let's be totally frank. We can sit here and be fluffy and friendly and say, Oh, you know, let's not push people too hard in the modern world, because it might cause issues and whatever you do have to be relentless for success. But it's okay to be relentless if you're being relentless and you're happy being relentless. So try in 2021 to be consistently, happily, relentless. And let's see where we all are in 12 months time. One more question for you. Probably a question people don't really talk about in the podcasting game, but we have struggled at times to get women to come on the podcast.
Discussion On Gender Imbalance
Addressing the gender imbalance (01:24:32)
Yep. For a variety of different reasons, men seem much more willing than women. Have you found the same thing? Yeah, we have. Yeah, it's interesting. You should say that. Yeah, we have. I don't think that we have found women not willing to come on the podcast. I think it's only when you start doing a podcast about relentless high achievement that you realize how dominated by men, the tops of our industries are. Yeah, that's the problem. And I think, you know, we keep on saying, like, who should we get on as really great inspirational female leaders and all the suggestions people keep making to us are in the sports space. And I keep saying, no, not sports within, because we are totally, I am totally plugged into the fact that I want to celebrate brilliant, successful females, you know, I have a daughter and I want her to listen to this podcasting years to come when she's old enough and go, that's who I want to be. That's who I want to be inspired by. And I think that sometimes we like to trick ourselves into thinking, oh, now we live in a really equal society. Now, what you're talking about, there's loads of powerful females at the top of businesses. When you break it down, we are still in a male dominated society. And it's a good reminder that we need to keep on lifting up female role models and pushing them to the absolute top. And we are on the hyperformal podcast, we are totally aware of that. And we will continue to do what we can, because actually, when we get brilliant female leaders on there, and we just recorded with Joe Malone, who set up the amazing Joe Malone branch, he now runs Joe Luzz, we've recorded with Holly Tucker, who was fantastic, Dame Kelly Holmes, who was really inspirational and moving, Steph Horton is going to be on the series in the not too distant future. We've had brilliant female leaders on our pod, but it is still a challenge compared to the amount of male leaders lining up going, yeah, I'll definitely come on now and talk. And there is something else that maybe we need to address in the next 12 months, black women at the top of business. Where are they? What is happening that is not allowing them to shine as they should? And that is one thing. And I just say one thing that really is pissing me off massively at the moment, is when people talk about the over-representation of black and mixed race or female role models in society. And they say, oh, everywhere you turn now, yeah, that's all this. And I drive this home to them all the time, I say, listen, you've got this completely wrong. The reason why we now have to promote and push and celebrate and shout about black men and black women, and women in general, and underrepresented areas of society, is that if you are a little kid growing up in Norwich or Manchester or Birmingham or Los Angeles, you have to see those people there to believe that you can get there as well. There's no good scenario, yeah, they'll eventually make it through. We have to show them now that you can, no matter who you are, no matter what the color of your skin, no matter what your gender, no matter what your background, no matter how affluent you are, you can get there. And that's why we have to push them to the forefront now to inspire the next generation, because once they're there, they'll stay there. And it'll be a much better, more equal society for everyone. We've both got a big responsibility with our platforms. Yeah, and we should, we absolutely should. Listen, thank you for your time. No worries, I'm incredibly busy with you. It's always nice to sit down and chat with you. Thanks for lunch. No, it's always fascinating. And I, you know, you're discovering incredible stories through your own podcast type of performance. And it's really powerful to kind of compare notes sometimes with people, because, yeah, one of the things I've learned from doing the podcast, which I'm sure you have as well, is that the themes that have made people successful and given them that high performance minds that are actually quite consistent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think when I started my podcast, I was expecting to find 50 different ways to become successful, but it all seems to be distillable down to these simple themes like, you know, consistency and discipline and passion. And then for me, anyway, much of the root cause of that consistency or that obsession or that passion has come from often in many circumstances, something that might not have gone right on the playground or some insecurity they had or something their dad or mum said to them. And that for me is fascinating. But yeah, thank you again for your time. It's a pleasure. It just reminds me that we were all on a journey, right? And I said to Harriet, when I was coming on here today, I said, I'm going back on Dario Vasillo was Stephen. And she said, again, well, what are you going to talk about? Because you only went on there a few months ago. And you know, when I now sit here and talk to you, I'm a different person to the one that you spoke with before I began doing my podcast and before I began doing my stuff with Corolla. Where even in the last year, I feel like I'm sitting here as a different person. And I didn't realize that you could learn and change and develop and adapt quite so much, quite so late. So, when Joe Biden took him to 77 till he nailed it as the president, you know, sometimes you have to wait a long time in life for you to dream job or your dream opportunity to come up. What has changed since we last spoke for you in terms of who you are? Just a much deeper understanding of how other people operate. And I just spent my life, hadn't I, won my own journey, me as a presenter, me learning, me setting up a business. What am I going to do? The high performance podcast was the first time I've ever sat down and just said, from the outside, this is what I think you're doing. Can you just explain it, please? What a growth period has been for me personally. Absolutely unbelievable. And therapy at the same time, right? Yeah. It's therapeutic. Absolutely.