Lewis Capaldi: The Untold Story Of Becoming A Global Superstar At 22 | E178 | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Lewis Capaldi: The Untold Story Of Becoming A Global Superstar At 22 | E178".

1970-01-11T05:34:20.000Z

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Introduction

Intro (00:00)

No one has ever asked me the questions that you've asked me to do. Let's go! We'll listen to music for a time in like three years. That's time I'm chatting myself. Why? I remember that video of you doing your own, you found out you met worse. Oh yeah. That's 10 fucking million quads, setting up somewhere with a fuck, is it? No label would ever tell you that is the strategy to become successful. You can fully just put a picture of you where a towel wraps around your head and these stupid glasses and we are top off on a big massive postal on the chip. It's less of it being like a polished fucking pop star. People see through that shit. You are living an extraordinary, unhuman life. What is the reality? I have really bad anxiety. It never reached a tipping point until after getting famous. I fucking hate recording albums. It's spies doing music videos. I only do all that stuff because playing live is this fucking unparalleled thing that you can't compare to anything else. So like when that was making me feel shame, I was like, fuck, I don't know if I can do any of this. Shutting them up. My dad gave me a left home from the airport one night and I was twitching like fuck, to the point where he started crying in the car. I couldn't concentrate on what I was doing because I was so convinced that I was going to die. What is the question that no one asks you that would reveal the most untapped answer? I think... Before this conversation starts, I've got a favor to ask from you. 74% of people that watch this podcast frequently haven't yet hit the subscribe button. And 9% of people haven't yet hit the bell to turn notifications on. The bigger this platform gets, the bigger the guests get. So if you could do me one favor, if you've ever enjoyed this podcast, please hit the subscribe button and turn notifications on. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Dirova CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this yourself. Lewis, hello. When you look back, and I was reading about your childhood, I found it really fascinating, when you look back at those early dots that you, I think sometimes in hindsight, we can connect and go, "Ah, that was the reason I became the person I am today."


Early Career And Personal Struggles

Early years (02:14)

Or, "That was a really significant early moment." What were those first early dots that you connect and go, "That's why I ended up where I am today?" I think for me, it's probably... The first one I can remember is being on holiday, and France used to go on these mad caravan holidays in France, me and my mom and dad, my two older brothers, my older sister. And there was a thorough, for some reason, I had been come obsessed with Queen. I must have been like four years old. But we got a CD and a... Remember those free CD newspapers? Oh, yeah, yeah. We would pull out stuff, so we got that. And we were brought to Queen on it, and we had the Champions as well. I remember I became obsessed with it, and I was listening all the way through, don't you? We were going to a draw from Scotland to France, so I was like, "I just remember listening to that constantly on repeat." And then being... I don't know if I ever showed an interest in singing prior to this, or being a singer or anything like that, but I remember we were at one of those, like, a band was playing, it was a kakarioki thing, like one of the family and entertainment nights, however. And for some reason, I just asked if I could go up and sing. We will rock you by Queen. And it was a lot, and I went up, and I did it, and there's a picture of me doing it. Like, I'm tiny, and I've got this make it forward. So I did it, and then I think I got a buzz for whatever reason I asked if I could go back up and do another song, and I did another song, and it was like, for me, that's the first kind of memory of, like, singing and getting a buzz for, like, "Oh, I'm up here, and I'm doing this thing in front of people." It's like, again, I have no other memory of, like, singing prior to that, but this was, like, just the first time I'd ever, like, got up in front of people and sang and been like, "Oh, this is like a... Oh, you better have a buzz, not even a four." You know what I mean? Which is mad to think, no, but, like, yeah, I don't know what sort of possessed me to get up and do it, but it was... So that must have been fucking... I don't know, like, I would have been, like, 2000 or something, maybe, like that, that, that, um... But yeah, I still don't, I still can't, like, put my finger on why I did it, or what the reason was for getting up on it, but... You're four years old? Four years old, yeah, yeah. So it was a strange one. And it was like a party or something? It was like, uh, like, you're calling these fucking... It's kind of these kind of package holidays that you're going to be a family, and they have, like, kids clubs, and they have, like, entertainment nights, so to say everyone kind of congregates in this... They are kind of... in the middle, and it's like... Then they have a band on, and they have, like... I don't know, fucking puppet show or something, like that, I don't know, I can't remember. I haven't been back since, so I'm just gonna get off to the ring and run. You're back watching. No, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, they didn't bring me back, but, um... But yeah, so then it was like, um... Yeah, it was just that, it was the first time we did it, and it was... Yeah, I can't... I can't, I can't put my finger on why. What were you like at that age, at that sort of under ten age in terms of confidence, and... Because to say, do you not own a group on stage and singing a group of front strangers seems like quite an abnormal thing for a child to volunteer to do? Totally, um, I think prior to being like ten, and prior to like...


Hypochondria (05:44)

I don't know, yeah, prior to going to high school or whatever and that, maybe not even like that, but like... When I was younger, I was definitely quite, like, outgoing, I'd say, like, I was quite... I remember I watched, um... When I was like five, I watched Austin Powers, like, I was like religiously watching Austin Powers, I don't know why my pants allowed me to do that, but like... I would like go to family parties and be asked to recite, like... I'm a fat bastard that I'd often pose, like, the big fat guy that he pleased. That would be asked to like recite parts of his thing, and I would do it in front of everybody and all the rest of it, but it was never like... Again, it was never saying it, it was just like acting the goal and like, taking the piss and... Yeah, like, I would get up and do, recite all these fat bastard bits and f*cking... So yeah, I was definitely like, more... I was definitely like a... I'd not... I'd not going kid, I think. I definitely like to be... I was probably loud when I kind of like to be like... I guess I kind of like people... A feedback? Yeah, but yeah, I like feedback, I like people watching me do things, I like seeing people enjoying something that I was doing. Do you know why? Um, I don't know. It's a strange one, because I never... I guess I never put much thought into when I was bi-evo-ever, but I don't know if it's like... I don't know if maybe like making a... like, my parents laugh or something made me feel like... Or that's a buzzer, whatever, and like... I don't know, yeah. I've sat here with quite a lot of comedians, you know? Jimmy Carr, Russell Kane, Russell Howard... And that's been one of the really fascinating things for me, is like trying to find out why at a young age, they got a real buzz... From performing and making people laugh, and actually, I think it was Jimmy Carr that said something to me. He said, instead of... you know, because there's this kind of stereotype that you do that because you're depressed, and you're trying to... I don't know. But Jimmy Carr said to me, "When you see that behavior in a comedian, don't ask them if they're depressed, ask them, which one of their parents were they trying to cheer up?" All right, well, I'm stressed. Yeah, that's... that's interesting. I don't know what my parents... When I was... I went to a therapist a year ago who had said my mum's mum died when I was three of like cancer. Not like cancer. It was cancer. But I had a problem. So, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then a year after her aunt, like, Kamen Tsusaid, who was... sorry, my mum's sister, my aunt, Kamen Tsusaid. So, my mum lost her mum and her sister in, like, the sit, like, within a year of each other. So, I don't know if maybe that's like... I'm quite like a hypochondriac, and I'm kind of like... I always think I'm out of dying. And when I was younger, my mum used to talk to me, and I used to always be like, "Have you locked the doors?" Like, even when I was like four or five or whatever. And a therapist told me that was kind of like... that might be because of like, being exposed to the fact that people are gone. Like, people disappear. Like, I was aware of what death was at a young age, so I don't know if maybe that's like... having seen... like, that sort of... like, that sort of like, profound sadness in my mum when she's, like, lost her mum and lost her sister. I don't know if maybe that's... Was it profound, so I just thought you saw... Oh, for sure. Like, I mean, it's... it's obviously... I mean, I can't imagine losing my mum at this... I mean, I mean, I'm 25. My mum would have been 34 when she lost her mum. So, yeah, for sure. Like, I still... I had like, vivid memories like... going into my mum's room and she was crying a bit. I think this might have been where my aunt died, but her crying in bed. And talking about like... and then being like, having to tell me about like... you know, how I passed away or whatever. Or like, I just didn't... I wasn't... feel aware of what was going on, but I just saw her so... like, heartbroken and so... Yeah, so distraught that this happened. So I don't know if maybe that's... it's an interesting thought of like... I don't know if maybe that's fed into it and like, me doing it and I could tell like, either Chilamapur or Distractum or whatever, I don't know. But, um... but yeah, it's an interesting... I'm trying to tell... How old were you when that happened? I was three when my grand died. I mean, three and three quarters when my aunt committed suicide. So I was... I was young, for sure. It's a... it's really... I don't think people realize how much kids can feel the pain of their parents. I had an incident with my sister-in-law in her and her and my niece where my... probably the instance that taught me this lesson where my sister-in-law was crying, was upset about something. And I just looked down at my niece and my niece is glued up at her. And my niece explodes in tears as well. That kind of relationship we have, like, intuitively knowing if our parents are feeling something. Of course. I think that... yeah, I think it is. The people kids do... I mean, it's... I think now where people are kind of talking a bit more, kids see a lot more. I actually watched that in Joe Wick's documentary a few weeks ago when he was talking about his parents' addictions and things. And he says, like, "Yeah, kids see so much more in our way of so much more than me." I actually know, and I thought... I totally agree. Because even now, if I'm a funeral, it could be for someone I have never met in my life. But my mum knew them. If I'd heard him, "Well, I'm just crying, I'll start crying." I guess I'm... So it's like something that's obviously learnt. Like, you see your mum crying. It's one of the worst things you can possibly see. Your mum or your dad or any of your brothers, sisters, and pain and crying are like really going through something. And I think, yeah, it's something that just does even those, that is a stick-suite. And fears. I read this study about these monkeys, these resource monkeys. And it showed that if the mother-resourced monkey had a phobia of spiders, then all of the babies would be scared whenever they saw a spider. And that kind of showed you talking about hypochondria there. And you're talking about using your parents as a steer as to what is dangerous, what is sad, and all those things. Do you think that your... You said you had a hypochondria? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You think that came from your mother's caution? I think it's not necessarily what's going on. My mum's actually... My mum's a nuss. So she's not like... She is the least... Like, if I fall in and I say, "Mom, I've got a headache. I'm dizzy. I think I've got a tumour or something." She'll be like, "Shut the fuck up. You're fine." Like, listen, take some part of seeing my whole go to sleep. You'll be grand. I'll see you later. My dad is a very... The older I get, the more I understand that my dad, I get all my anxieties and things from my dad. My dad's like, "I wonder you're for sure." And he's a catastrophised as well. His mind goes to like... Sparms. The other day he went to my brother's house, chapped from the door. My brother never answered. My brother was on the shower. And my dad had convinced himself that there was a gas leak in the house. And my brother... Like, immediate jump. Like, no, like, stepping louder to that. It was, "Chack the door. No answer. Chack the door again." Right. Gas leak. Something's wrong. Banging the door. My brother comes out and I tell him, "What the fuck are you doing? "This is like mental." And my dad's up. But that's like, I mean, it comes through like an amazing booth, but it's something that he just has in his mind. And I think he's a hyperconjerk as well. And he kind of has... Yeah, I think I've learned that from him in the sense that he's a warrior in that sense. But I do think that... Because I never thought about the... My... And... Grandmother passing away is like a big thing in my childhood. Which is... Now when I say that out loud, it sounds mental. Because when I'm like, "Oh, it wasn't a big thing I would ever..." But like... So I think it's probably that sort of like a awareness of death and awareness that you're not around forever and you're paying... Because then immediately I'm like, "My mum's passing away. "My mum will probably..." Do you know what I mean? That's... Immediately in your head as a kid. So I kind of remember why I got onto asking her about like locking the door when I was a kid. And she was... If you locked... I don't understand and I still don't remember how that became a thing. But yeah, no. So I think I definitely get a lot of my hyperconjerk, my warrior man anxiety from my father. And my mother's quite, quite calm, killing-collected. If I'm... The older I get, the more I'm realising that. Do you know what I mean? But yeah. I sat here with him, a guy called Jack. Jack met. And he talked about how things are in OCD. And he really opened up about it. And I... You know, people use these terms flippantly. They say, "I've got OCD. I've got... I'm sorry, I'm a hyperconjerk." And they use them so flippantly to describe like the tiniest little... Some things not neat. I've got OCD. Or, you know, you might find a lump in guards, you know, jokingly say, "It's this." And then someone will flippantly say, "Oh, you're a hyperconjerk." Yeah, totally. But the reality of being a hyperconjerk or OCD is, as Jack taught me, is very, very different. Totally. 100%. What is the reality? So I think... I've got... I have really bad anxiety anyway, which I never really... I never reached a tipping point until after, like, getting famous. I never had a panic attack until after I was famous. Or after I was a musician. Or after this was like... After they got to like a height. But the hyperconjerk, I guess, like, looking back now, I'm like, "Oh, how is, like, such an anxious kid?" But then, because now I understand it a lot more, and I've got a therapy and I speak about it with people, and I'm trying to learn a bit more about it, I kind of look back at things that they'd... And realize that the behavior was the result of anxiety. But that hyperconjerk thing was probably where it all started. And it was like... I would be like... I'd be walking around school, like, moping and fucking like... Sort of like blink of view and everything. And I was just like... Couldn't concentrate on what I was doing because I was so convinced that I was going to die, and that I had this fucking horrible disease and that... That yeah, that I was going to be over and I was going to have to go to the hospital. That was going to pass out or have a seizure. I've never done... None of that has ever happened to me.


Panic attacks (15:53)

I've touched wood. Never been in the hospital for anything serious. I've never broken a bone. I've never had any major... I've never had a surgery. I've never had any major illnesses or anything like that. At school, when I was in primary school, I never missed a day off. I never had a day off. I was always... Never had... I was never ill. Second to school, I was off ill once. So it wasn't like... I had cause for any of this. It was just like... In my head, just thinking... And I think maybe that's the thing as well, I don't know if that maybe never actually being ill. I didn't know what being really ill felt like. So my mind would maybe conjure something up in that respect. But yeah, no, at the school, it just became... Sometimes it could become like just... really like... Again, at the time, I didn't understand it. And the symptoms of that anxiety, like being dizzy and fucking... I used to kind of always go like... I used to think big deep breath for that. All the time, and I used to make this noise, which I still make. When I go like... And it's like... So basically, now looking back, I realise that's all anxiety and actually got diagnosed with terets. Like... Two months ago or something? Really? Yeah, yeah. Which was... To me, when they said I was like... Oh, that kind of makes fucking sense. Because I always thought terets like, fuck and swear and then that. It could just be like... Text, bodily thingies. But so I kind of... Yeah, as I say, like looking back and I realised that it was all anxiety, but if I thought I had a brain tumour and I was like... And I was like worrying about it so much and getting anxious that I was dizzy, that would then feed back into the... Oh, I've got a brain tumour because I'm dizzy all the time. Why else would that be dizzy? I mean, I even got so bad a couple of years ago... That I paid, I went and paid for an MRI scan, cancelled. I was met at the Austin City Limits Festival in Austin. And I just had to cancel the trip because that was my anxiety about... I think that someone said this would ruin me. I'd got so bad that I was like, I can't get on a plane and go to Austin and be away from home. I need to go get an MRI scan or I need to fucking... Really see what it's sort of about. So I went and got it and obviously there was nothing in my head. That was fine. And no one can talk you out of those. When you're in that moment, call your mum, you call your friends, you tell people no one can talk you out of it. I can do it now because I've done therapies and I've been able to sort of... Understand my own anxiety and stuff a bit more. That has made it easier for me to talk myself out of these kind of... Situ misha, at least kind of holes that I can dig myself in my head. My mum's also been a good thing. That's absolutely useless because he's fucking anxious himself. He's right there! He's just fucking... He's mental. So my mum, yeah, she's really good. If I'm having a panic attack, my mum has to... There's no doubt it can talk me out of my mum, for sure. Definitely. My mum has had to sleep in my bed as recently as a month ago because of how bad my anxiety got at one point. But I think that was alcohol related. There had been a bit of a bend over the years before. But at a get to the appointment, I'm like, I can't... I just can't fucking... I can't envision... I can't imagine... At not being something like life threatening or like super serious because of how fucking... Like, sometimes things don't feel real. Someone will say something to me and I won't understand what they're saying. Like, it's fucking... It gets like proper, proper intent. But yeah, that's kind of... The hypochondriat, as I've got older, is lessened. It's only when I start to have a panic attack or like I start to get really anxious that I'll go right. That's... I think so. And dizzy. It's probably anxiety, you're fine. I know there's a bit of voice in the bag and head that goes, "But what if it isn't... What if it's something wrong with you? What if you're about to pass out?" And then in some situations I just... I get... My head tells me like, "Oh, you're about to have a panic attack. You're going up." And that is enough. Like, that's enough hypochondriat. Like, it's just my... So it is... It's still something like ongoing, like that I deal with. But it's definitely getting better. I've started taking my medication for it. I've seen a therapist more regularly. Again, the Tourette's thing was like a good sort of... Like, and it was kind of nice to get... Because I started this bad Twitch when I showed up. So it's actually okay to do. But that became so like bad that I was like, "This has to be fucking something serious. Like, what neuro and disease you're going on out of shit." Like, again, just the wheels starting turning on our estate. So that finding out the Tourette's thing was fake. Was like a nice sort of like... Okay, that's cool. Because I don't mind like... I never really think that like, I have like a mental illness so very so. I just think sometimes I get really anxious and it's fine. Do you know what I mean? It's like, it's just one of those things. But I don't see it as like, this big thing. I'm quite like... I'll talk to anybody about it. If I'm having a panic attack and remember like, I'm having a panic attack by the way. So just do with that information what you will. And you said that on stage before? Yeah, you have done it on stage. You had to cut the panic attacks on stage. We actually... We played... And we did an arena tour in March 2020. Like right up in like just before COVID kicked off. And I don't know. It was like... Obviously it was like... Basically it was kind of the combination of this album campaign that we had done for the last record. And things were great. And it was like, we played Australia and did some amazing shows in Australia in January. You'd up in February. And then March was coming back like kind of nice sort of victory lap. Look what we've done. This is great. Arena's can't believe we're doing this in the first album. I'm amazing. It was the worst two weeks of our life. That was fucking shit. I hated every minute of it. Like if you look at videos of me on stage, I'm doing this twitch. That was so bad that it was just... Like I couldn't speak between songs. I couldn't. I had to stop songs and start over again. So I watched a tweet speak like... One tweet in particular that was like, "Oh, loose is on... Fully on cocaine. Like fucking twitching. Fucking all this shit." And then obviously I'm like, "Oh no, people think I'm on cocaine. That feeds out on my thing. I mean, I don't..." And it was fucking horrible. And I think I played the first two shows were in Glasgow. They were like... The first two arena games were in Glasgow. I remember walking out and either... It was like a kind of big call of same thing of the hydro in Glasgow. And it's like... And we're walking out into the middle of the arena, empty arena where my mum and dad were just like, "Oh fuck, this is like..." It was just, I think things had got to a point where they were bigger than... Like I was seeing how big it had gotten. Like do you know what I mean? It was the first time I'd... Because the way it worked was my songs had gotten... We were kind of always putting catch up with ourselves in terms of the size of venues we were doing. So like when we could have done 2,000 cat rooms we were doing, 1,000 cat rooms and then... Like so on and so forth. So it became like... It was kind of nice because I was like, "Oh, this is great." Like songs flying. Like the next songs done really well as well. Like we're playing these nice rooms. The crowds are meant. Oh, this is class. And I think, yeah, the arena was like... The arena shows were like, "Oh fuck, this is real. This is huge." There's a difference between 2000... Because that's another thing I've got a bit of an issue with. Especially in the UK. It's really hard to go from 2,000 capacity rooms to 16,000 capacity rooms. So it's like, there's very rarely in between. When I'm part of it you can do like 10, you can do like 5 in places but... It was just like, fucking analysis like a big jump. And then that thing I've like disappointed people really came in yet. And then just like... I don't mind being a support actor. I always love because if I'm shouting, no one gives a fuck. Because it's like... Who cares? Who is this guy? Like do you know what I mean? We did supported Sam Smith on tour. And like they were really gracious and had us on. But everyone's there to see Sam. No one's there to see me. Like do you know what I mean? So if I go out and have a shake, it's like... Grand, I'm fucking off. This is great. Do you know what I mean? But when it's like people have bought a ticket to see you. It's not a festival where there's loads of other people on. Your literacy year just became quite... It was quite intense. How old were you then? When you walked out with your family into that gig and you looked up at the stadium. 23. 23. 23 years old. It was... Yeah, it was intense. I think it's because as well like... I just maybe... I think in my head I was like, "Oh, you can't." I've got a bit... I've got really bad like... And everybody I speak to who's done well, this imposter syndrome thing where it's like... I don't deserve to be doing this. What the fuck am I? Fucking up here doing this. I feel like I fucking absolute... Like... I don't know. It's just like a fucking... I shouldn't be in this position. And I've always had it and it's like... We do the self deprecating part of like... On fucking interviews and stuff, which I do love us. Like, take the piss but like... The imposter syndrome stuff... I had never been more... Insecure and unsure of myself... Than after I did really well. That's so interesting. Because I've heard that before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, even now like... Going back to writing new music after we've done these fucking shows, it's like... I thought I was gonna go in and be like... Right? I've had a couple of hits... Relax guys. Here we go. This is gonna be lovely. Easy peasy. I was fucking second guessing myself all the time. I was like... I would start writing a song and then immediately... No, that's right. Like, just constantly like... Self sort of like... Like, just fucking just... That's shite, that's shite. Like, looking at what we did before... Obviously COVID happened. You have all this time to kind of like... Look back on everything then you go, "Oh, for fuck's sake." That was kind of... Well, wait for us a bit there. The song... One of the songs went number one in America and I was like... There's no way I can do that again. That just seems like such a... Such a fucking... ...climb and something that I'm just not capable of. I don't... It feels like someone else did it. So, I mean... And now I'm like... You're comparing yourself to that person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like... It's like we were saying before, like, that thing of like... Even now coming on into the interview and stuff, it's like... Fuck, I don't know if I can do it. I know that shit anymore. Because it's been fucking easy. It's been like three years. Do you think who sat here before you was Bear Grylls? And Bear Grylls said to me, he said, "The more successful I've become, the lower my confidence has become." Because Bear Grylls now is... When you... Like, if you may eat something crazy or doesn't mean crazy, you go, "Who do you think you're a Bear Grylls?" He's actually become synonymous with the word like so. His identity is this like extreme, you know, whatever. And he's now looking up at his own identity going... How the hell am I ever going to be Bear Grylls? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was crazy to hear him say like his confidence is at like... Pretty much an all-time low because of his success. Yeah. Because he's competing with his own accomplishments, which is... Yeah, totally. Not an easy place to be. No, I don't understand it. And I have to agree with that. I feel like as well, it's such a weird position to be in. Because you walk into a room, like, and it's people like... This sounds wanky as fuck. But like, I have to assume in some regard that people are around my age have at least heard about me in passing. And I always just assume... When I go into a room, I just assume people in that room don't like me. Like, that's just my... Don't like you. That's my like, default position of like... I don't know why. I don't know why it is, but I just like... It's just something I always have and I always like... If I go to a pub... And like, I walk in a pub, like... I'm like, oh fuck, people put it. Like, walking up to the bar, or like... If someone comes up and says hello and I'm speaking to them, I think I'm actually with them. I think, oh, everyone else knows about the likes of a wanker. I don't know. It's like, I don't know if it's like... When did that start? Maybe like... 12th to end of 2019, probably. Yeah. I don't know. I fucking... Being famous is fun. It's great. Like, do you know what I mean? But why do you think they're not going to like you? Eh, I don't know. It's just like, I don't know what... I just assume that they've probably seen something on "Lay". Like, a video I've done, or none of you I've done, or they've heard the songs and they think, oh, they've seen none of you and they think, oh, I fucking hear that kind of... I can't stand them.


Being self deprecating (29:03)

Yeah, I don't know. I just always assume that people have got this. I don't know, this view of me that maybe don't like... I don't know. Again, I couldn't really put my finger on it. Why? Like, I don't... I don't hate myself. Like, I think I'm all right. Like, yeah, I mean, but I think it's just that... I don't know. I don't know if it may be that thing of like being in the public eye, like, you're so fucking exposed to like all this shit. And it's like... Yeah, it's just a bit of a... I don't know. It's a bit of a... It's a bit of a... You walk into a room and you feel like, oh, fuck. Do you feel like it? 'Cause I'm on... 'Cause I started doing "Dragon's Den" now. So, the podcast was like, you know, big people knew it before, but there's this whole new demographic. Now, this BBC One demographic, where if I'm in the airport, if someone just glances at me, I assume I'll be, you know, you're gonna come over and say something or whatever. So, you kind of live with this constant paranoia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're kind of like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, if I just keep my headphones on, then I don't... I look at the fucking floor. Yeah, yeah. Do you get... I don't know about me. I don't know what I'm saying. And it's like that sort of like... You feel the difference. ...that is like squeezed out. And I don't... I love when people come up and... I love taking pictures of people. I love speaking to people and hearing people's stories about how they love the music or like even... I get a lot of people who go, um... Oh, I think my music's shot, but I hate the funny, you know, that stuff and that'll accept that as well. That's fine, cool. But... Is it cool? Yeah, I think it's fine. Like, you can't... Oh, my music's not gonna be for everybody. I'm just really aware of that. My personality's definitely not gonna be for everybody with that. I think the fact that people come up... I like the fact that people feel that they can say that to me and I wouldn't take offense. You've kind of invited that, the revenue. Yeah, yeah. 'Cause that's how I am. Like, you would really, really have to see something horrible. But I don't know what you could say to me that I would take offense. I'm very like... I don't know if it's about bringing a Scotland or just being Scottish or whatever, like, that... Like, I don't take offense to things, really. Like, I've seen some fucking pretty ridiculous things right there with me online, and I don't want to add all of this to that. That really does not, like... You say you're very self-deprecating. Yeah, of course. Why? Eh, I just think it's funny. I think, but again, I think that's a very Scottish thing, and that's a very... Like, we kind of all... Well, I grew up, everyone just took the piss of each other. It's quite... I don't know. It's quite a bad thing, not a bad thing, it's gone. You never feel... You never want to get ideas above your station. Like, even when I was starting out in music, I just always... I never thought we'd get to this point, "Oh, that thing's going to get us to this bit." 'Cause I just always thought, "Oh, that... We just... that just doesn't..." I'm thinking, "It's maybe a bad thing as well, 'cause maybe it stops a lot of people from going to achieve things and trying to reach for stuff." Like, I've said before, like, if I hadn't met my manager and my label and stuff, I would still be in pubs just playing tunes that we can't even the norest it. It's not like... Or I'd be playing weddings and stuff like that, 'cause I would just not assume that this was on the cards. But I think, yeah, it's... I think it was something nice and... Don't get me wrong, I remember my friends, I'm slagging them off, like, nothing else, and they're doing the same to me, and it's like, you kind of figure out, like, what your flaws are by the way your friends, the stuff your friends pack out. And I don't get wrong, like, on tour, we say some fucking horrific stuff, teach on me to do the passout each one. That's all fine, 'cause we love each other, that's grand. But, like, I think, in general, if I can... It feels better to make people laugh, like, at me than other people. Like, I would rather make someone laugh at me than grab somebody else and take the passout at the end before. Is there not harm in that? Because I've heard some of the things you said, you know, you said... I mean, I know they're jokes, but you said things like, people, women, find me equally repulsive in Australia, and... Whatever, you take a shot at yourself. And I do want it, 'cause if one of my good friends was always self-deprecating, I would tell them to stop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause I would be worried that those words might knock their own confidence or... Yeah, I think it's like, you don't, like, be nice to yourself. Like, that's the thing, I think, if you were talking, like... If you had, like, a child, would you want someone to say the things to your child that you say about yourself? I get that completely, and I understand that, but... I don't, like, self-deprecate constantly in my private life. Do you know what I mean? I don't, like... Yeah. It's something that has become kind of synonymous with me doing... And it views and all the rest of it. And I do do it a lot in my private life, but not, like, it's not, like, a constant... Every sentence, like, kind of, how it is on, and the views and things like that. Do you think it's kind of self-defense, in a way, from...


Comparing the first album to the new one (33:53)

It could be, yeah, I think as well, yeah. Like, my first album is called "Devaintly Uninspired to a Hellish Extent", which is, like, kind of getting, seeing my album shape before, I can see my album shape. I think it's like... It's nice to take the power away from people 'cause it's like, "Oh, I fucking say it first." Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, I think it's quite... It is good. It is good. It takes the power away from other people, I think, in that regard. So, I do think there's probably something in that, but, um, the way... The way I see it, I don't really feel like it's... Dragging me... Like, for example, the stuff I say to myself in my head when I'm hungover, that is, like, damaging stuff. Like, that sort of thing, I've, like, when you're hungover and you're, like, kind of just that self-loathing and that sort of, like, that's the stuff that, if I say to myself all the time, I'd be like, "Well, you need fucking, like, chill out." And it's, like, jovial, and there's never stuff that, like... I can't change. You know what I mean? It's not, like, things like... That I'm, like, if I'm told myself, "Chubby," that's not, like, my... I can do something about that, like, doing... Yeah. I'm like, not... You know what I mean? So, it's something, like... Um, like... There is an aspect as well, like, you kind of... People, you get to a point and do none of these, like, special radio scenes, and that... We do just say the same thing over and over again. So, as it's the same in that regard of, like, people say it a lot later, very self-deprecating, and it's like, "Well, yes." But these are... I'm gonna ask the same questions everywhere I go. So, I'm just kind of, like, rewobbed on a lot of this... Mm. Self-deprecating pattern, and the rest of it. So... Yeah, I mean, I don't think... Second time around, it's gonna be quite... Like, I don't know how it's gonna play out. I'm saying a bit like, turning it on again and honest, but like... It's just, that's... It's gonna be interesting to see, like, how things play out this time around. 'Cause it's like... Yeah, I'm not just gonna come out and see the same stuff. How do you feel about the second time around? Give me the full range of emotions. So, this is your second... Kind of, yeah, releasing new music first time in, like, three years? First time was just a Smash Mega Ultra hit. Yeah, some make call that that. Yeah, and, um... Fucking crazy. Yeah, it's wild. It's wild. So, this time I'm shitting myself. But this is the problem, I think, the nature of the music industry. It's a big problem with... I mean, it's got so much better, and I've had a lot of support from everyone around me.


Questioning what I’m doing (36:23)

No one forces me to do anything. No one really... We were able to... This is, like... Almost unheard of, but, like, we were able to go away and make new music and bring it to the label and be like, "This is the new music that we're going to put out." And they said, "Great, thank you. We will now do our job with this." So, it's like a lot of people have, like, a band A&R who's quite... Oh, no, he's changed this, changed this, and that we were giving, like, the first album I'm saying that I'm free-reigned to kind of go do what I want to do. People have always checked up on us. But I think in the music industry... And then, maybe any industry, it's like... You get a number one single, and immediately it turns to you, "Ah, yeah, but can I do it again?" Yeah. And then you do it again, and then it's like, "Ah, but how's the album doing?" And it's like, "How are the tickets doing?" There's always something else. The goal post's always fucking changing. So, it's this constant sort of, like, state of, fuck, fuck, fuck, I need to, like, right. It's like that thing of, like, I mean, it's so... It's spoken about to death, but, like, that thing, I've not been able to sit back and enjoy it, because you're always on the move to the next thing, on the move to the next thing. And I think that's why, June lockdown, I really struggled as well, because it was like, on the next thing, the next thing. And there is no next thing now, because we're all on COVID, and all this shit. And it's like, "What do you do now?" And then you just have all this pain up, fucking. How was that, thanks, are you? It was intense, for sure, because, do you know what? When COVID first got announced, well, when COVID first got announced, as if it's a fucking album, but I think coming this summer. But I think when COVID first got, like, kind of, when the lockdowns first were announced, we were all fucking thinking that it was a bit like, I was made going to an America to support an hour horn, but having had just had the fucking horrible experience that I had over the two weeks, I was in a position where I was like, "I don't know if I can perform like anyone without having a panic attack." It was that bad, that every single night I had a panic attack, I was twitching, it was fucking horrible. People who I knew would be watching the gigs, and they would come back after and be like, "That wasn't, we didn't enjoy watching that gig thing. That was really fucking hard for us to see you in that position." Did you ever find, in those moments, question what you were doing? Yeah, for sure. But at question, what I was doing, a lot in the lockdown as well, like, it kind of started to, it's like, "Fuck, if this has make me feel this bad." And it was fucking so heartbreaking as well because, sorry, I keep hitting this mic, but I was so heartbroken about it because playing live was the best bit of music. Like, I fucking hate recording albums. It's stressful, it's a pain in the ass. At promo, I get into a point where I quit Likert, and it's kind of like fun, but it's not like, while I get into it, I fucking despise doing music videos. I hate doing photo shoots, hate getting my photo taken. I only do all that stuff. The only reason I started writing songs was because I thought, "Okay, if I'm like, people who I was watching, like, bands at Green Day are fucking awesome monkeys, like, "Oh, they write their own songs." So, if I were to play live, I'd have to write my own songs. So, like, the only reason I do any of this whole shit, I'd put up me any of this whole shit, is because the playing live is this fucking unparalleled thing that you can't compare to anything else. Takes you back to being four at that karaoke gig, right? Totally, 100% and it's that same buzz every single fucking time. Like, do you know what I mean? I mean, unless you have a fucking shake, then it's terrible. And then you're depressed for like three weeks. But, yeah, that buzz is just unbelievable. So, like, when that was making me feel shy, I was about like, "Well, this is fucking horrific." And it was like, I don't know how, if this has made me feel this bad, why continue to do it? And then, at times, making new music and stuff, I was like, when I would get really down in myself, I'd be like, "Fuck, this is actually a buffet." I never actually got to a point where I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna quit." I don't think it was ever something that was serious of mine, because I've literally never done anything else. And I would be fucking useless at anything else. I'm a lazy cunt. Like, serious... And I don't know why that sounds like I mean self-deprecating. I am just a weird of that as a genuine flaw that I'm trying to take the steps to correct. Honestly, it is so fucking, I'm so bad for just like, see like, just sitting on TikTok, fucking scrolling through and that. And I think as well, getting to the position of God, and, on first album, I was like, "Fuck, no, I can really fucking be lazy." Like, no, I can turn this shit fucking right up. It was wild. So like, at points, I was just like, "Fuck, I just do this and that, but I think for the most part, I was never seriously considering like, stopping, like completely." But it was definitely something that... And my mom and dad had raised it to me. My family and friends is like, "If this is making you feel that bad, especially when my Tourette's thing was really bad, I mean, I never knew what it was." My dad gave me a lift home from the airport one night, after I'd been one for a week. And I was twitching like, "Fuck." To the point where he started crying in the car. Because he was like, "This is like, again, I never knew it was Tourette's at this point." And he was like, "This is fucking like..." He thought I was having like a seizure next time in the car and the rest of it was mad. So like, they were obviously concerned and they're like, "Why? Like, just stop, don't do this if it's making you feel this shit." You never had it in this anxiety or anything before. This all took off. But then again, when I went to therapy, I was like, "Oh, actually, I did." But this kind of just tipped it over the edge, maybe when it became like panic attacks and stuff. The life thing was really a big thing. We went and played the Grand Prix in Abu Dhabi in December of last year. Just like I said, and I was really worried about that. And then we went on stage and I never had any of those issues. Like, I didn't twitch, I didn't have a panic attack, whatever. And I came off and I was in toilet and I was like, "I could have fucking busted the tails." So I was like, "Oh, fuck, I can actually do this." Still. And not have be fucking twitching and not be fucking terrified and not all this shit. So that was a big thing. But yeah, over lockdown and stuff I definitely thought. Initially when it happened, it was such a relief because I was like, "I think fuck, I don't have to go away and do this tour." We now go and do festivals. Because it gave me a moment to kind of address it. And I don't know. Now saying that, obviously, no more COVID did and all the stuff that happened and people lost jobs and all the rest of it, that feels like a selfish thing to say. But at the same time, it's like, I don't know how much longer I could have kept up having a panic attack every single fucking night on stage. And just like, because it was like fucking, it was like suffering for sure. And yeah, it just wasn't fun. But again, it was like, I would come off stage and be absolutely, and then I'd be like, "Oh, I'm not having this panic attack." I got to a point when I was having panic attacks, because I was anticipating having a panic attack. So, you know what I mean? So when you get into that cycle, I think you're in real trouble because it's like, if you go looking for something, you're going to fucking find it. You talk about how therapy helped. That's really inspiring to hear, because a lot of the time, honestly, when I sit here with people who are in that phase of the life, we've been through that. They didn't seek out help until much, much later in life, until much, much later after their career. And it's also, I have to say, it's so important and nice to hear your honesty about that, because I think therapy is something that we should probably all consider if we have the means to do it, because it's sometimes not like whack-a-mole of seeing a symptom, but a preventative measure as well. You can't wait until things are like the "what's to do" something about it. It has to be something that you continue to fucking continue to work out. You know what I mean? It's just, I think people wait until it's like fucking like the "what's to rock bottom." If you take the steps prior to rock bottom, you might not have to reach that. How has it helped you? And what has it taught you? I've had a few, I've tried a few different therapists, and that's the thing is, as well, it's like you can go to different people and you can walk out. I think a lot of people make what a therapist can go, "Oh, that doesn't work for me." But you have to kind of find the person. Exactly, exactly. You have to find the person who's right for you. And I'm still like, I've just started with a new, like I'm still trying to find the right person. But like I think, it's just, for me, it was all about like understanding, like the first one I did was like CBT therapy for my anxiety. And I was like, it was just about understanding what anxiety is and why I'm having these and looking out for struggles and things like that. It was very much about, because at the start when it's not up, when you just have anxiety, it's actually like, "Oh, what the fuck is going on? This is mental, like, why am I feeling this?" And then every sort of feeling you get when you have a bad architect spuds it on even more and it becomes a big fucking massive thing. And I think when I went to CBT therapy and she was like, "Have you felt like this? Have you felt like this? Have you felt like this?" And I was like, "Oh, yeah, oh, that shit." And she's like, "Oh, that's anxiety." And then I remember I used to eat this passing out and see your thing became a big thing as well when I was home planning attacks. And she was like, "Right, well, what happens if you have a seizure?" And I was there, I don't know, I probably got a hospital. And she goes, "Alright, so you're in hospital?" "What's the best place for you to be?" I just thought I was a hospital. She was like, "Right, cool." So what happens if you pass out? I goes, "Oh, I'll probably wake up and I don't know. I'll probably get a hospital." She's like, "Oh, it was the best place for you to be." So it's like, that's like fucking thing. I was just like really talking it out. And then I never knew what catastrophizing was when it was like that. Sort of like snowball effect. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this thing happens, then this thing happens. So that was a big thing. And yeah, so just that. And then the second therapist when it was the person who mentioned the thing about my mum's mum and being exposed to death that young and being around death that young and kind of just that being a thing with my hypochondriary and all the rest of it. And I just think it's just so funny like when they make you like, speak out, like, think, like, so like me saying, "Husching, so what happens if you have a seizure?" And I go, "Oh, I've got to go to hospital."


What would you liked to have been at 16? (46:42)

And she goes, "Well, we're with the best place for you." Like, I mean, it's like, it's like so simple. It's like so simple, but actually them making you say it, you go, "Oh, it makes so much fucking sense." And yeah, so it's been a big help. And again, it's like not something that I feel like, I feel, again, it's not something I'm going to saw myself doing. Go to the end of the panel and list a bit. But it definitely makes me feel great. Like afterwards, you just feel like fucking, weight's been lifted off your shoulders. And I definitely, like you see, if you have them, you just do it as something that I would recommend massively. I think it has helped me. It continues to help me. It's that thing of like, it's like anything. It's like, you go to the gym, it's like, "No, I don't." But you go to the gym, it's like, for me, like, going to therapy, it's like, kind of got the gym to kind of like, help my mane just fucking, walk through things. And having the awareness to know that you're, you are living an extraordinarily unhuman life. And I say it to human because we're not meant to have feedback at that scale. We're not meant to go into arenas. I mean, if we're probably from our hard wiring, we're probably meant to be groups of 10. Yeah, people we know and love, you know, small communities, not going to arenas with tens of thousands of people. Absolutely, man. And I think that's the thing as well, it's like, understanding that you, this experience that you've been through as, as, as a, not, the, what trauma I take as a fucking big one, but as, as a fucking, to massive sweatsh, like, I was fucking playing pubs that weekend, staying on money and fucking, I was at college, doing music because, and the only thing I did was because I was lying on my bed one day and my dad says, "What are you doing after the summer?" And I go, "Oh, I don't know yet. I was just going to play gigs." And he was like, "Are you fucking wack at some?" So I flew my friend Adam and was like, "What course are you doing?" I'll do this music course, went and that. So I was just fucking like, pottering around and then, this shit just kicked off. What was your hope for life then? If you could, if we go back, because we did get past that part, what was your, what was your, if I had asked you at 16 years old, what you want to be when you're old, what would the answer have been? I've always just wanted to make enough money doing music so that I didn't have to get a real job, but anything. If I had made like, I don't know, fucking 500 pound a month, I would have been fucking buzzing. Like I would have been so happy with that. The first day I met my manager, he said to me, "What would be your fucking ideal fucking situation?" And there was this article Lewis Watson at the time, who was like playing, who plays like, who at the time was playing like, came to us, so he's been using Glasgow, so it's like 350 people. And I was a huge fan of his and I was like, "Oh, well, Lewis Watson would be like my goal, "like that sort of kid, that kind of, "that kind of, playing king-tuts size venues up "under the UQ would be my asset goal." And my manager was like, "I think you could be doing arenas." Okay, this is a first day, first day I met him, and I think he could be doing arenas. And I was like, "Shart the fuck up, like, tongue-pish, whatever." And then fucking cut two, three years later, I'm playing arenas, it's like, it's just madness. So it's like, yeah, I just wanted to be making enough money playing music that I didn't have to get for one of the real job. Because this is like, and this is the thing as well with us, with music as well. This is one of the easiest jobs in the world. This is a really easy job, the actual job part of it. That's the being, it's the famous side of things that's like, that causes the anxiety and stuff like that. The actual jobs are fucking breathe. Am I from one of my friends, one of my best palves is a grave digger? Do you know what I mean? That's a fucking hard job. This is a piece of piss. Like, this is great. But it's that, it's the kind of pressure you put on yourself, the fame and stuff like that. And I fucking hate being on being like, "Oh, fame, man, it's really tough."


How do others get where you are (50:30)

But, because again, it's fucking class and loads of respect. But yeah, so I think it's, for me it was never, I never thought we would get to this point. Like, I never, even when I got signed, I didn't think it was going to last. And I've always been told, like, getting signed means nothing, really. Because it does kind of, I mean, it's a nice little tech, but it doesn't mean anything. More people get dropped than fucking, dude fucking become success stories. So it's always been like stuff that I've, I've always just been class half empty and been like, "That's probably doesn't really work out." But I'm going to fucking try and really give it a goal. But it probably won't work out. So don't get, I don't like to get too fucking aspirational. And I wouldn't say I'm necessarily an ambitious person. I do think there's people around me who are ambitious and who we have the same, like, love to dreams and they maybe see something in me that, again, this is something that I cannot be more thankful for, for like labels and agents and PRs and my manager and my family and friends and stuff. They've obviously saw something and thought, for some reason that we could get to our point, but personally I just feel like, like I'm just happy to play music and specifically play live. So if that's just can get into that, I can do that. I kind of like big crowds now. So it'd be nice to take a step back for at least two years or whatever. But if I can play live music, yeah, fucking, I'll show you why I'm playing some of you loved it and you would shake for the next 20 years. Do you know what I mean? I don't give a fuck. I'll do that man, you know, I mean, because it's a bus, but, yeah, I don't know. I just think I've always been that, oh, this probably wouldn't. This is probably the end of the road here. This is probably as bad as I was going to get. And it's just like when, even when we started doing well in terms of like selling tickets for gigs and stuff, I always saw, I never have a song I say over someone who's going to have a talk for a single. So this is after selling out tools, and I just thought, oh, we could maybe squeeze a talk to an album. That was like my big, my big thing at the outside. We got a talk to an album, I'll be fucking happy. And then I just fucking took it on a life of the song. One of the things that I was really inspired by, and which we kind of skipped over again, is this how many years of like practice and repetition you put in before you got discovered, like playing in pubs at like 11 years old and sneaking in and hiding in the toilets. Yeah. How important in hindsight was that practice? Like invaluable. Like it's so fucking like, like I wouldn't be doing this if I hadn't been for that. But that's the thing, it's like the love of doing it. It wasn't like, it didn't feel like to me like a chore or like a fucking, and because I wasn't aiming for anything, it felt like, oh, this is the buzz. This is the goal. Like, we've had. Yeah, we've done it. Me, when I got on stage when I was 11, hiding in toilets, when I got in stage, I was like, fuck, I made it. This is good. Like, I mean, the fact that I didn't kicked out the pub, I didn't get kicked out the pub that time. That was fucking grand. That was what I was after. But to me, that was fucking, that was the goal. Just play gigs. That was because most of my memories are like going out and getting hammered and under these drinking that we'd probably shouldn't do. But it's like, is that our old way to make, we put gigs on. And we fitted our friends to these gigs. And like, we went and had pubs that were new, served people who were like 16. And like, we did, like, it's so, my life has been so ingrained in like doing like music. But it never, ever felt like, even though it doesn't feel like I'm walking hard, nothing feels like I'm walking hard. Like, it's getting to like the number one record at the time didn't feel like I was doing much. It just felt like I was, because I have fucking love doing it, I didn't feel like I was working really, really hard. Again, I think it might be something to do with the fact that my brothers have my electricians and my dads are fishmongers and moms. I'm not saying I know what I can see like a proper day's graft compared to finding a bit of the middle of the guitar and I rest it. But like, I just never saw it as like fucking, oh, I'm really in the pit scene and I'm fucking like, I just didn't feel like I was walking hard and that goes back to like, being in those pubs and being in those like, shake bars when you was listening to your playing on a restaurant, even when I was thinking fuck, if I was eating my dinner, I wouldn't know what to hear me fucking singing. Like that shit was like, and I think that's a lot to do with like the, you have to develop a text again playing on a pop because someone will show you a fucking show, you're, no one's stopped. When you're remembering, I've, well, remember not what you're having. But when I started telling people that he and the cute fact that when I was like, things got dicey for a bit for us, yeah, things were an issue. But yeah, I think that's what, anytime I see, I meet people like young guys or girls or fucking whoever that wants to be a musician and it's like, what did you do? It's just like, it's just immediately going play a gig. Don't focus on a lot of people are like, oh, I'm going to look this way and I'm going to fucking, I'm going to fucking, this is how we're going to perform on stage. And it's just like, just go do it. Just go play gigs. Don't want to be releasing. You don't have to release music. I never released a song. I never did like an official release, like any, like fucking, the first song I ever released was "Bruzys" which was on my album. That's the first song I ever put out, like record, where I'm recorded. Like a minute I recorded you and did some demos before, but that was the first song I ever popular recorded. Because I'd been writing songs for fucking, at that point, I would have been, when that came out. So, ten years I'd been writing songs for, well, twelve, because I started writing songs on nine. So twelve years I'd been writing songs for, I got to a point where I was just like, but it was never in my head of releasing music, because I was like, "Oh, I just want to play live." Like it was just this, this thing that I just kept doing in tandem with playing live.


Social media marketing (56:24)

So for me it's just like, that's whatever I say, people just go do it and just go fucking get the experience. I remember going to college, when we were eighteen, and my, like, all these people who were really talented musicians and singers and fucking, like, they had never put, they'd never put their live gig. And I was so surprised by it, because they were fucking much more, like, technically gifted than the rest of it, and better singers and all that shit than me. But the fact that we had played live so much, me and my friend Adam, who was out there, and paid shoe, who was my ex-girlfriend to Love Island one of 2020. But she was the same, she'd done loads of gigs, Adam had done loads of gigs, Adam had done loads of gigs, and we all drove to singing together. And it was like, that sort of experience in Gigan that we all had became like, it was just so, it was so apparently that sort of, like, kind of disparity. And not again, these people were much better musicians and, like, singers and everything than I was. But like, when you got on stage it was like, there was a marked difference, I think, just because it was like, you had that compatibility of being up there and doing it. I think my voice is a sound the way I sound because I played in pop. Like, that sort of like, loud fucking, because you had to fucking sing above the noise of people talking, and pishing, like, drinking or rest it. And like, I think, yeah, it's, it's, if I hadn't done that, looking back now, I'm like, oh, that's, that was the fucking, that was the kind of game changer. Like, this is not an easy question for someone that's self-deprecating. But when you look back in hindsight, as you said there, and you go, do you know, because we all do it, we go, what, what was the reason why I was, because you've been wildly wildly fucking successful. I mean, I've probably, I've the right words to describe that just how big your records got. And I'm a huge fan of yours. You have a music chat, and I really am. Like, you know, in the same way, I'm a big fan of Adele, I'm a big fan of Ed Sheeran. You are, your record, your records reach that level. Thanks. In hindsight, she's like, hey, doing those pub gigs and the repetitions there. But what else? I think, no self-deprecation without it. No, no, no, no, no, no, because I'm a fucking, I don't know. I do think that was a big thing. It is. Like, for sure. I think, I, I remember when I first started using, like, social media to do the form of music. It was the 97-to-5, what kind of the main band, and everyone was like, you have to be mysterious, you have to be sort of like, you know, they were doing, they were gats within the letters and all the rest of it. And it was barely, like, black and white, really cool. I remember if you look, I mean, it's all probably archived now, but if you look way back at some of the things, I'm like, trying to do that. And then, after that kind of faded out, but that was everybody. Everybody was going to the meetings, and it was like, oh, you had to be, like, kind of mysterious, cool, like, black and white, like, don't know, whatever. And then, it fucking, we then went on to, just, I was just kind of using it to be like, oh, I'm doing this today. Because I had actually stopped using old social media when I was 60. I didn't have Instagram, I didn't have Facebook, I didn't have internet shit, because I was just like, I thought I was being cool and edgy, but I've been off-grid, so I actually just I can. But, um, then I just started using it, like, oh, playing fucking, dot-to-dot festival and Bristol today or whatever. And then, it wasn't until, like, I think I thought that we had reached our peak in terms of, like, music and other aspects of it, like, firstly, PR really stood really well. And then, the kind of, the release season between, that was a song called Rush, these are songs I still love, song called Rush, and song called Tough. Tough, we thought was like, this angle, we thought this is the one that's going to fucking, if anyone was going to, like, blow up, that's that one. It did fuck all. Um, absolutely fuck all. And I think at that point, we were like, okay, this is kind of racist peak, we haven't reached the heights of Bruisees, because Bruisees kind of blew up online. Um, I'm recently, I hate to Bruisees, and that's going to be a song and whatever, blah, blah. So then I just, like, didn't give a fuck on Instagram, and I was just, like, just doing stuff that I thought, like, me and my pals would laugh at it and fucking, just talking absolute fucking shit, and just genuinely, like, being myself or on Instagram, really, which was taking the piss at your things and taking the piss at your being famous. I remember that the first one I remember was coming back from an American tour, where it played, like, places that kind of nice shows in America, and it was this big spread in the, um, and, like, the sun or some other, some other, people that were, I don't know, but, like, some other news people, um, this big spread, and it said, like, loose, cupaldi, no hiding place now. And when I had been in that, and on the American tour, this girl in Philadelphia had given me these stupid fucking glasses, like, these stupid fucking daffes, cat-eye glasses, and it had the moment, and I was, like, I don't know if it was jet lag, I was just being exhausted for thinking, but I started filming myself on me, like, yeah, I'm fucking so famous now, by the way, it's unbelievable, that's me, no hiding place now, please fucking stuff, just talking piss, like, I had to put the glasses on, and I was, like, this is me now fucking, like, at a lump it, or two, is it, oh, it has to do, just, again, just a mean, shy, not thinking about it, like, taking the piss, and then, people just really reacted to it, again, it wasn't something that I was in, like, and no one was like, oh, we have to, this is a thing, no, we just kind of left it, and just kept, the more and more I was just got comfortable just talking to you, fucking forward, and taking the piss and realizing, you know what social media is actually a piss take, like, just don't use it, but it's serious, just have a laugh, um, I think that was, like, the, the, the, the bigger thing that, when it was like, oh, can I find my feet, and I found my voice, and I just started taking the piss at your things, and, and just realizing, oh, you can actually just, you can fully just put a picture of you, where a towel wraps around your head, and these stupid glasses, and where you're top off, you can put that on a big massive poster on the chip, yeah, like, oh, that shit, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like, why not do that, like, like, you don't have to look good on it, or cool, or whatever, you just do a fucking stupid, I think we did that whole Christmas thingy, when it was just, close up to my face less, and it just says, "Many Christmas from us could build it." There was no, we didn't, we weren't promoting anything, and then, like, it just, that was all in the chute. No label would ever tell you that is the strategy to, to become successful, and yet, for many people, that'll actually be, well, for some people, that'll be how they discovered you, I remember that video of you doing your, you found out you're not worth it. Oh, yeah, turn on a quote, yeah, yeah, fuck me then. No, there were 10 million- Yes, that was a ten million- Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, "Mom's bedroom, whatever." You're like, "I got a fucking new you." Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the thing, and, like, chill out, was just, like, take the piss in it. No one would ever tell you to do that. That was a marketing strategy. Well, this is a thing, that now that someone was, like, we started to see other, mostly male artists doing it, and like, doing, like, very close things to it, and not to be, like, "Oh, you fucking called me," because it's like, whatever. It's people taking a person trying to do your thing, try whatever you can, and I get it hard. It's fucking loads to it. I remember seeing the tweets and they saying, "A few years ago, labels were telling people to be, like, the 1975, and now you go and immediately tell people to be, "I'll be able to speak about it." I can't remember if we did it, but I could probably find it. But, like, I remember reading that and being, like, is that, like, I can't always say I'm just doing whatever, and I'm like, "Is that a thing?" And then, even, like, I just started seeing it from one more people, and then I was, "Oh, this is fucking great." Like, cool. We're all just being ourselves. This is great. But you see some people doing it, and that's not their personality, and you can kind of see it. You can't fake it either. Exactly. And I think that's a thing. And I don't know. And now, I'm not really sure what it would be, but then, like, someone, like, like, that you look at it now, and it's like, people who are on the set, like, "Dodja Cat and Lizzo are two people who just are themselves, and people love them."


Writing songs (01:04:13)

For it. There's a name I'm forgetting. Young blood. No, an artist in America who did that song about riding a horse. Oh, a little nurse. Yeah, exactly. And exactly, that's our thing. And now, obviously, he's doing so much for the LGBT+ representation, especially in, like, hip hop and all the rest of it. It's fucking amazing. And I think, yeah, people who are, that's the thing, no, you're seeing people who are themselves. It's less of it being, like, a polished fucking pop star, whatever. People, because I think people know, see through that shit. Like, people see, like... Well, you're way more relatable than some perfect... Thought it. ...buter, like, some, like, one of the, like, David Becker model with, like, six pack habs who is faultless. Yeah. And just, is PR trained. Thought it, yeah. I can't relate to that. Yeah, of course. But then, the, the, the, what's funny then is it becomes such a part, like, it becomes a point where, like, tons of people start going, oh, well, that's just, I remember the being a story, and, like, this, I think it was one of those people's got a touch scene. Oh, there's this story that, um, Elis has a comedy writer. Is that true? Or to call with the lyrics and I'm like, if I took comedy, I was like, I'm gonna be calling it a bit of shit then. Fuck, I'm fat and I'm, and I'm, like, fat on the match. Do you know what I mean? I think I'd be able to fucking... I'd have better fucking material, to do that. But, um... Not my idea. Like, I totally, yeah, exactly. Get me something on the phone. Get me something on the phone and something like that. But, like, um, not it was like, so then that becomes, like, that, then tons and it's like people are like, oh, he's fucking, he's trying too hard now. And you're like, I'm just in the fucking same thing. It was still, that's like, do you know what I mean? For the last 10 years. But, um, but I think that, that, yeah, people, people do, like, when you, again, when you can see someone's not being themselves, like, when we were doing that and there was other people doing the same shit as us, it was like, that's not, I can see that. That's not you. But that was, like, not me. That's probably a label that's been, like, this is working for that kind. Yeah. Do this, like, do you know what I mean? There's a juxtaposition with you though, because of the music you make. I'll be honest. So I heard your music first. Loved your music. All that stuff. Then I'm on Twitter one day and I see this guy talking about his network and saying in his, like, "Mums, bedroom." You're like, "Where the fuck is this money? I'm not telling the tax man." And I'm thinking, that's the guy I have. Yeah, yeah. Because this guy is a comedian and he's, he's not serious at all. And then this guy in the music is deep, profound and serious and emotional. Yeah. It felt like two different people. So that's actually what made, for me, made it even more, like, shocking, but cool. Yeah, cool. And surprising. I think a lot of people had that. I never noticed that as, like, a thing. Like, I never, um, I never saw that as a thing until people started pointing it out. It's like, do you know you're not like a songs talk? Like, "Ah, yeah, because I never really thought about it." Do you know what I mean? Like, I'd always just fucking, "Mateunes" and then, "Was who I was." Do you know what I mean? I see, but it's easier to write about sad things, I guess. Like, it's hard to write about, like... Has it always been easy to write about sad things? I remember reading about this moment when someone turned you and said, "How's your life going?" When you were, like, 18, 19 and that changed everything for you. Yeah, so I'm telling, I probably, I was writing songs and I'd learned how to, like, craft a song. But I wasn't, like, writing anything with any, like, fucking, like, meaning or, like, yeah. Like, it was all kind of making up stories or whatever, just like, they weren't really about anything. And then you come in and you go in there, like, co-writing sessions in London. I think I was, I might have been 17 on my first one. And you go in and someone goes, "Oh, this is exactly what the guy called all agreeing to her still." You know, and then on the list, he's a great writer, a great producer. And you go, like, "So what's going on in your life, man? How you doing?" Like, what do you write about it? And I'm like, "What the fuck are you talking about? Who are you?" Like, "Who are you?" Like, "I've just met you and you're asking me, like, how I'm doing and what's going on in my life." Like, it was almost, like, aggressive. I was like, "Stand over, it's like, I was like, 'What the fuck are you?'" Like, I just met my thinking that. And then, at, at all the time, that becomes, you realize that it's like the people want, like, talk about that. And it's like, that's what makes great songs is like, if you have these, um, yeah, if you have these real stories behind them and these real emotions behind them. And that's not the city camera, a great song. And it's just, God was a gig, like, fucking, I remember years and years ago, like, without, um, remember that Robbie Williams song? "Hey, oh, here she goes, you were gonna do that?" Great tune, right? But I remember having it, and I don't know if you'd be like, "Oh, it doesn't mean anything." It's just like, it's just all, like, cool and thing. And it's a great song. I fucking love that song. But, like, it was like, when it came to writing my songs, I found that that was like, "Oh, this is the fucking, this is the thing I've kind of been missing. It's like, it's weird that it took writing with someone else to bring out more of myself in the tune."


Relationships (01:09:10)

Are you in touch with your emotions? I think so. I think it's really important to feel how you're feeling. So, meaning, like, if I feel, wake up, didn't want to know, I feel sad. I think it's important, like, there's a reason I'm sad and I should sit with it and feel it, rather than, like, I put it off for, like, not kind of exploring. I think it is quite important to, like, try your best to fucking, just, like, not, trying to put it off being fucking sad just leads to, like, for me, a big fucking hole where you're going to, like, really, really, you're going to just go off a cliff at one point. You can't keep putting it off or, like, go to it in person instead of fucking dealing with stuff, or whatever. I say, maybe being happy. If you're happy, fucking, great. Feel it. I always fucking, like, get, like, really melancholic after that, especially, like, so I just did, like, my first show in years with my band over the weekend on Denmark, and then coming back home Sunday, kind of sat on the afternoon Sunday, and I was just in my way up to flat, and I was like, "Fuck, I feel like, I feel like shit. I feel really sad now." Because I've just had this amazing fucking, like, kind of like, the calm down. The calm down was just, like, thinking about it's important to, like, sit with that and enjoy it, and kind of, like, not dissect it as such, but just, like, kind of, let it sort of take you. Obviously don't let it run away with you, but just kind of, like, deal with it. Don't deny it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Don't be like, "Nah, I'm going to, like, see now if I'm anxious, I'll feel anxious." And be like, "Okay, I'm feeling anxious. It's fine. I wonder why I'm feeling this. Could be this, could be this, could be this." And a lot of people who are journaling right down, like, I'm feeling anxious because of this. What can I control? What can I know? All the rest of it.


Whats the questions you’e never been asked before? (01:11:02)

And I think, yeah, I try and, I try and sit with things. I do think, since I've been famous at stuff that I'm, like, less, maybe in touch with, like, I've been, like, like, like, relationships. I feel like I've become quite a closed off person. Not in, like, when my parents are in us or in us and else, but, like, if I'm starting a new relationship, or trying to start a new relationship, I can be quite romantic relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can be quite, like, I don't know, shut off. Like a shield, is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I guess that's just a response to, you know, everything that's happened, but it's definitely like a... So you mean, like, if you meet someone new, say, it's a romantic partner, or if it's new people, you can kind of keep a wall up because you're... Yeah, and I feel like I can, like, I can be, I can have, it's kind of like, I feel like I can give, it's more and more friendship, but I can give people the impression that I'm, like, giving them everything. But really, I know, like, I'm fucking defending certain things. Like, what? I don't know, just like, my own sort of, like, maybe, like, insecurities about things, my own worries about things. Because you think if you share that, then... It's just quite a vulnerable position to be in. And then it's like, you don't know a no. You don't want to give that straight away. Yeah, yeah, totally. And then, like, you don't have a react to it. Totally, hold on a second. And it's like, you don't really want to hear... I don't know, you just, yeah, kind of careful about who you share that with, who you spend the time with in general, but, like, it's easier sometimes to just not... Get that, and we hate to hear about it. To give them the, like, the public image first, and then the other time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 'cause that's the thing, as well, everyone has a perception of who you are, and like, even if I'm on dating apps or whatever, it's kind of weirdly one-sided, but I'm asking them a bunch of shit because it's like... They can Google. Yeah, they know loads of things, and they've either seen it in the interview, or fucking head on the radio, or... And it's like, this is one of the things. I think I'm quite open in interviews and stuff like that, but I do think there's still a lot of things people don't know about me. Like, the second question is, I won't get asked because of, like... I've always wanted to ask someone this question. I'm not sure I've ever asked it, but it's... I sat one day with myself, and I thought, what's the question, as someone that's always doing interviews, or he's always talking, what's the question someone should ask me? What's the best question they should ask me? Because I'd love to ask that question as someone else one day, and the best question I could come up with is, Steve, if I was asking it to myself, Steve, what is the question that no one asks you that they should be asking you? That would reveal the most interesting, untapped answer. Now, I'm gonna ask you that question, and then I'll answer it myself as well, which I've never done before. Um, fuck. I don't know. What's the question that you think, John? If you'd asked me that, you'd fucking want to find out something like that. Oh, I don't know. Um... Maybe, like, things like what makes you happy? Like, genuinely when we share it, because I can think of all those things that make me sad, but I'm quite hard at, like... Music became a... like, I hope it became a job. And now I, like, find in my life as a lot of gaps in terms of, like, what I can do to, like, make myself, like, like... Other than fucking... Um, so I'm, um, I'm stating from alcohol in a minute, I'm not, like, fucking thinking about, like, I've been off it for, like, three, four weeks, however. Just 'cause we're doing, we're busy doing all this shit, so what would it be? Okay. And it's like, other than, like, and again, this is part of where I grew up, other than, like, going out to the beginning and pished. It's like, what do you do, or, like, playing shows, what do you do that actually makes you happy? And I think a lot... I kind of don't know. Do you know what I mean? Other than, like, my music in... Yeah, but I didn't... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a very strange position to be in. And it's like, I don't know where I would start to, like, try and find something like that. Do you know what I mean? It's not in part because your success took your... Your whole passion away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. It takes your passion away because it kind of... Turns it into... It's monetised and it's... Yeah, it's responsibility. It's fucking... Pressure. It's... It's true who have got kids and stuff like that, that you feel kind of responsible for them away. And then it's like, the pressures of fucking trying not to say the wrong thing, especially in fucking these things that we're in, trying not to say the wrong thing all the time, fucking... Like, trying not to... Like... You don't want to upset anybody, so try not to upset anybody and also the pressure of fuck that first album did well. What's this next album going to do? Like, this sort of uncertainty. I think a lot of people as well think just because the first album is going to do a second album is going to do great. And it's just not... This is not the case. You're only as good as your next song, I think. One of the things that I think is important for you to know is that is not a Lewis Capaldi thing. That is a human thing. I remember reading one day about a study which I actually wrote about my book where they got people to do a task, right? A game that they enjoyed doing. And they measured their success performance and all those kind of things, happiness. And then they got them to do the exact same task, but they paid them to do it. And their motivation and happiness dropped. And it's so paradoxical. You don't think, "Well, if you pay me to do something that I love, my joy of doing it will drop." That makes absolutely no sense. But you're right. It shifts from being passion as the key incentive and motivator to money or responsibility. And it's even something I think about with this podcast because I started it because I love it. I love having these conversations and no one's fucking listening. Yeah, totally. Knowing all of this and about how motivation money, I just want to keep fighting for the bit that I love and doing it my way and not allowing your good at this because I know you cancelled some shows when you just needed some time. It's just taking some fucking time when I need it and saying no. I think that's the thing as well. It's like that we'll see it about stopping before you are stopped. You get dirty, yeah. It's like stopping when you have this you who's made it rather than, or you physically can't do this just now because you're in such a bad way. But what was the question that you thought it was still a stop it?


Perceptions And Future Aspirations

Other people perception of you (01:17:05)

No, fuck, I thought I dropped it. You're a good one. Yeah, come on. I don't think people ask me. So it would be around how I've dealt with the shift in my life from going from being like someone that note that these papers didn't write about to being, get emails from the big newspaper saying is this story true about your past or your life. And in those moments, it's really fucked me. So I've had just this, now the media seem to care about my life and sometimes they say things which aren't true. And I had thousands of employees so they went back through all of my employees and remember this one article where they found like three of them, which was like 0.01% of my employees. And I had never met these three people and those three people had a bad experience. They wrote a story about it. Not bad experience with me, but a bad experience with someone in my business. And that crippled me for like many days. I couldn't think about anything else. And that is probably my first experience with something that I would call anxiety. Just like feeling nervous for days on end. Yeah, totally. And it's a rough control as well. Even with all my experience doing this podcast and speaking to hundreds and thousands of successful people about anxiety and all those things and how you deal with it, you would think I would be an expert. Yeah, totally. No fucking. Yeah. No, I'm not. And I still don't know. I still don't know how to. If I get into one of those moments, I never got into it before. It was only public attention that did it to me. Yeah, I thought it. I mean, business pressure never. It was public attention in like, I don't even say I'm famous, but quote unquote like being in the public spotlight. Totally. I mean, we go, this is a new feeling. Yeah, because you can't control other people's perception of you. You can't control how you are perceived by the way the public people make. Like, there is, I remember I did the Brit Awards to just announce an award. They'll be like last year or something. I wasn't there to perform it. I went on and I was like, oh fucking, I can't remember what I said. I think I went, the crowd was like cheering all that and I went, shut up, shut up, shut up. Very like Jovial, no one was offended. You go online and it's like, comment's like, he's so disrespectful. Because it was NHS workers in the fucking audience. They're like, I don't like it. I don't know. I was like, I don't know. I was like, I don't know what I said. But he's so, like, that's so disrespectful. But my mum walks with NHS, by the way, like, I've said much more than sharp. But yeah, it's that thing. It's that I totally can empathize about the situation because it is just fucking like, you've got to do this, you're going to do this because you love doing this and your business because you love doing your business unless you're not trained. No one's trained to have fucking millions of people. I'm going to come back to something you said earlier because we glazed past that. My brain is just going, go back to that. Sure. You're on Tinder. Oh yeah. You're on Tinder. I've just been kicked off of Tinder because I think people think I'm... They've reported you. Fake. So I've been kicked off with Bumble Tender, Hinge. And Hinge is the one I really like. I love Tinder, right? Tinder's great. But Hinge is one of the one I get them because I feel like that's no, like, mid 20s. Like, that's what people are on. I'm on it. Ah yeah, I'm on it, buns. I don't want to do that. But then... And then I've got... Oh, I've got this one. Someone there, they told me, going to sing called Field. And I was like, "I'll kill letters and I'll fucking date and that." Whatever. And I go on it. And it's like, so sexual. It's like, it's all a bit like... Like, kinks and fucking BDSM. And I'm like, this is way beyond anything I'm like chewing Den for. But like, yeah, but kicked off Hinge, Bumble, Tender, I used to... Because I'm thinking, I'm still fucking 25. But it's like, I always struggle with it. I don't want to like... There's always like, people talk about things like, about imbalance of like, someone being famous or whatever, but I'm trying to like, work that out as well. That's like a new thing of like, I don't want to like, use my fame. Or I don't want that to have any influence over someone who I'm dating. But then at the same time, it's obviously a bit of like... And it's unavoidable. And it's like, I can't... What am I only supposed to date people who are also famous? Like, that's a really weird thing. So it is that thing of like, yeah, it is strange that I might be on Tinder. It's a bit weird. I know last year of the Nintendo. She's fucking great. So this is brilliant. Like, do you want me to... This is after I've been famous. Is there a part of you that hopes they don't give a fuck about it and don't know who you are? No, I think I'm like... Because again, it's that way of like, 20... Any girl from like, 22 to 25. It's probably gonna know again that sounds wanky, but just... Age range, like fucking... No, it's a hide. Yeah, exactly. No, it ain't. I'm fucking famous. But I think... I kinda want them to... If they know... There's nothing worse than a girl going... Oh, I didn't even like, realise like, I hate that when you can like, tell that someone's talking... Sometimes it's so fucking totally thinking, but sometimes when people... Like, it just doesn't matter when people like... I don't know if you've had this. It was since like, this whole blown up, but like... I've got girlfriend mates, so I don't... No, no, no, no. But like, when people come up to you, anybody comes up to you and they love to let you know that they don't give a fuck who you are. It's like the host that... I don't even know who you are. I don't even give a fuck who you are. I don't even give a fuck who you are, whatever, blah, blah, blah. You're like, all right, like, it feels mutual. Like, what the fuck is this? Like, you don't have to come up and tell me that you're using it. It's just like, brook it. So like, and sometimes that happens in dating as well, but it's like, yeah, I don't even fucking care about like, who you are, whatever. It's just like, okay, this is like, you don't have to tell me that. Like, just like, we can just have a conversation with two human beings or whatever. But yeah, I think... I would rather, if they did, know who I was, that it was like... Yeah, like, you mean it's killer, blah, blah, blah. I probably wouldn't, if someone was like... If someone was at, like, for example, if I met a girl at a gig, no. Yeah. I probably wouldn't. Maybe back, like, ages ago when I was playing smaller gigs, but like, no, it just feels a bit... That feels weird to me. Yeah. That's a very big thing. That feels like maybe taking advantage of your position. So I'm probably gonna do that. I wouldn't do that. It feels tough. But I think, yeah, if someone was like, "In the music, that's great." If someone was like, "Oh, that's not really my thing, but cool." If someone hated it, absolutely fine as well. But I just think, I just like people to be as upfront as possible, rather than be like, "Uh, yeah, are you that? Or is that your song or whatever?" But I would just like... You just want people to be genuine, right? Yeah, exactly. That's the most important thing. Yeah, the rest. Because if they're not, then there's trust question marks, right? Yeah, of course. Of course. And I think that's, again, maybe I beg to think I've, like, the whole not giving too much of myself away and honest about, like, putting those walls up. How is dating in relationships and all that in your life now?


Are you confident (01:23:56)

Do you have trust issues that people are going for you for the wrong reasons? That's the question I get asked a lot. It's like, "How would you... Should it be an ex-jack and then, and people know you for that money?" Yeah, yeah, yeah. People think that you're gonna attract a certain type of person. Yeah, of course, of course. I mean, yeah, totally. But there's this really good bet, and the trip with Steve Kugel and Rob Braden really goes, "Oh, well, she's only going out, are you famous?" Because you're famous, and I see who can go, "But I am famous." That's like me saying, "He's only going out with you because you're good-looking and young." Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's that thing of, like, it's such a big part right now, at least right now in my life of who I am, that it is hard to get away from. I think it's going to be, listen, more... For some crazy coincidence, more girls are interested in me now than they're wearing a couple of years ago. I don't know what it is, but it's definitely changed. They read about your net worth. Yeah, yeah, totally. But it's not to say, like, and I don't... Like, again, it's that thing of seeing people feel like they know you and, like, all the rest of it, and they've seen your personality and maybe made them laugh or whatever. That can be a... It's attractive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And as well, you maybe have this, you know, people think you're confident because, like... At least when people think I'm confident because of how I am on, like, if I'm on a talk show, or if I'm on, like, my Instagram, people assume that I'm a lot more kind of confident. And I've got a few beers. I'm going to be more chatty and... Are you confident? I wouldn't... I wouldn't say so, not really. Again, it's that thing of, like, feeling really open to, like, people. Like, it's like that you're going to put on display, like, I feel like... I hate... I don't know. I just don't think I'm... Yeah, no, I wouldn't say. I'm not as confident as I was when I was a kid, I was put that way. I mean, I don't think anyone else, but, like, I don't... Some days I feel really outgoing, and I'm like, "Oh, I'm really chatty." Some days I struggle to talk to my friends. Like, see, sometimes I'll just be like, "There'll be a bunch of us around the world, we'll be holding off." And then, like, free them a leave, and it'll just be me and one of the... one of the power. And in my head, I'm like, "Fuck, what do you say to your friends?" Like, "Do you know what I mean? It's that way where you're just staying ahead and getting my head down." Like, "I can't think of anything to say it, do you know what I mean?" So, sometimes that happens. Like, there's been times where I've done interviews with people, and I've been really chatty and going, because it's like, it's a set up thing. They're asking me questions. I don't necessarily mean saying anything. And it's quite easy to just kind of look into that rhythm. But where it's like... And maybe it's part of doing interviews, because a lot of the sort of... And it actually has people are very, like, one-sided of... Ask a question, I'll answer that. Ask a question, I'll answer it.


Your new music (01:26:39)

And now I kind of sometimes have a bit... Especially when I'm romantic setting up a bit, like, "Fuck, what did I say to this person?" And it's something that... Yeah, I need to get better, obviously. But, and part of it's an interesting thing as well, because if someone knows what you do, it's quite like a job that they might start as an equation. And it becomes a bit... What is it? It can become a bit of a Q&A, and that's exhausting. Yeah, totally. You're going to be doing that on the fucking weekend. No, I totally. I 100% like people ask them, like, "Oh, how is the gigs going? "How is, like, writing the music going?" And you're like... You're going to give the dead answers, which is just... Yeah, yeah. How is this? Yeah. It's good. Like, let's not talk about this. And you know, like, they don't really care. Yeah, yeah, totally. It's just... Isn't that the worst type of question? When you know someone's asking a question and they don't really care? Yeah, of course. I absolutely just buy a small talk. Yeah, totally. As you can probably tell from this podcast. Yeah, totally, yeah. No talk has been small, I'd say. Straight in. I find it exhausted. I think I'm an introvert. Yeah, I totally agree. But then it's very, again, how often in the real world can you start a conversation with a really deep question? Never. Exactly. And that's the question. Yeah, we got off to this fucking great start. And it's like, even before the podcast and stuff, it was like having a chat that was about fucking proper and deep stuff. So it was like... But in Unreal Life, if you woke up to Sunday and day to go, you're like, "Tell me about key points in your life." It's like, they're like, "What the fuck do you tell me?" You know, you just start buying some bread. So I mean, like, I can't get there. I think that is, I think it is. But yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. It's like so refreshing to have these conversations and actually speak with these things because it's like, there's just no other situation where you can actually sit there and talk to this. Unless it's like your family or friends. But even then it's like, sometimes when you go to your parents, you don't want to have fucking big, deep chat. You just want to be with your parents and enjoy being with your parents and like just sit there and just enjoy. Be either. Yeah, just be there, rather than be like, "Oh, I'll explain your whole life." Yeah, totally. Do you know what I mean? I think, yeah, so these situations that are very, I mean, I don't often have conversations that stick in front of cameras. Like, that's my cameras. But like, I think, yeah, it's always refreshing. When you think so, you got, you know, you now realize that there is, and I hate to fucking add more pressure, but you know, there's an expectation. There's the people awaiting now for this, for new music at some point whenever it's going to be coming. How do you feel, how are you feeling about that? How are you feeling? Oh, I'm like genuinely a shit myself. The point's making this fucking new music where I was like, I'd actually fucking care about it. I imagine going for the motions and writing these songs and all this stuff. And then there would be days where I'd be like, "Fuck, I'm sweating on this." So now the album's done and every single song I fucking love and I think it's a better album than this one. And I really care about it and I really put a lot of, I write about a lot more stuff that I would never have spoke about in the first album, like pertaining to my own mental health and like my own sort of outlook on things regarding being famous or whatever. And I think, like, that, it's kind of like a nice thing to be scared because I'm like, "Oh fuck, I really, really want this to go well because I'm really caring about this album." And I realize I'm really caring about making this music and being able to put it out and having this previous position to be, "What are you fucking going to do that?" But yeah, I'd be lying, if I said I was anything other than absolutely fucking bricking it. It's like, it's a serious, eh. And it's like, it's that thing as well, like I said earlier, where people are like, "Oh man, you can fucking shout, you can fart on the mic and it'll go to fucking top 10 or whatever." Just because the last album, Dead Well, does not mean that at all. It's like fucking, it's nonsense. Like, people want good music. If it's in the music shape, that's not going to fly. Do you know what I mean? You've done the bit you can control. Yes, 100%. But is there not now a risk of putting your emotions on the own controllable? Like, there's nothing now you can do. Once you've written music and you've done the hard bit, there's nothing more that you can do to control it. Obviously, you can do promo and stuff, but that's not going to, you know, that won't, that's not going to be the thing that pushes it over the edge. Yeah, not to it. And it is like the fucking, I know, it is shut up. I know. And it is shut that I can control. And it is up to fucking, I don't know, a fucking higher power or a faith or whatever I don't know. But like, it's still quite hard to, it's one of those things where no amount of therapy, I think, is going to help me not focus on that. And it is like, I'm quite bad for like having anticipation anxiety being like, because I'm ready to fucking go now. Like, I'm ready to go. Like, someone suggested that we push things back a bit, the other day, a bit more. And I was like, I cannot wait, like, any longer to put this music out. This is like, this has to go out. And as well, if you wait too long, it's fucking, the album starts to be less to you. And you kind of like, you get further away from writing those songs and what they meant to you, whatever. So, can I ask you a question, though? Yes. If it goes really well. So if it goes bad, I kind of can guess how you probably might feel. But if it goes really well, how will you feel? I don't know. I'm kind of worried that if it goes bad, I'll be relieved. Because I'll be like, oh, fuck, fuck that, all that pressure's off. You know what I mean? Like, part of me kind of feels like that. And then part of me feels like, oh no, if it goes well, I'll be relieved. But then sometimes I'm like, if it goes well, I'll be like, fuck, I've got all this. Like, do you know what I mean? There's only like, if it goes well, sure, that just means more prying eyes and more, like, fame and more, like, thing. Which again, is fucking great a lot of the time. But it has its pitfalls. And it's like, will that then feed into the anxiety more? Or is this my anxiety now? I've learned to deal with it. I will get worse. So will it expand? I will it show itself in different ways? What would you say to a friend if they were going through thinking all the things you're thinking? What would you say if you were, if I was your best mate, we'd only try the sense we were kids. And I was saying all this stuff to you. What would you say to me? I don't know. I'd say just like, remember why you got into the first place. Remember why I do that. Don't feel like you're walking towards some end product. Feel like you're in it. This is the end product. You're enjoying it. This is what you're supposed to be doing. You're here. Fucking be here. Don't fucking... You're not... There's no fucking... It's not a destiny. Like, this is pure, like, on a fucking card. But like, there's no destination that you're trying to get to. But like, just fucking like, this is the fun part. Like, this is supposed to be fun. Let it be fun. Do you know what I mean? I mean, the thing that's stopping me in fun is fucking... my mate. You know what I mean? So... I mean, it's easier to say that to people than to say it. Yeah, it is. Right. But they say they say... I've read the quote. I've posted this a few times myself where they say, you know, if you always go through life believing happiness is somewhere else, then it will never be where you are. Totally. It's like deferring the happiness to a future moment. But it's like a mirage. You see it in, like, when people are in those, like, movies in the desert, and they see... I know you're chasing a rainbow and it just keeps moving off further into the future. Yeah. Totally. And I think that's the thing as well. I haven't done all this magic and then been to, like, the Grammys. Fuckin' hate the Grammys. Fuckin' been to a bunch of other World shows that I didn't really enjoy. The World Show that I loved the most was the Brit Awards, the night that I had won two awards. Not because I won the awards, but because it was like the first time I would feel like, "Oh, fuck, we're celebrating this." My mum and dad were there, free of my best pals, free home, where I'll be able to come down and do it. The people who'd walked on the record were actually sitting at the table with me. We were, like, label-wise and manager-wise and that. We're like, "That felt like an amazing moment." And then you realize it's because there was all these people there. It wasn't like because of the... I'm there and I've won something or whatever. It's because you're celebrating this with, like, people that you love and people that have been through it all with you. And I'm a mum and dad, obviously. My mum gave birth to me by the way, as a mother. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. So, like, my mum and dad and then my friend, so I grew up with. And then these people who have put their fucking bloods wet and tears in the making the record with me and then, like, the label and stuff have fucking walked so hard and promoting it and getting out there. And I think that's... That was what you'd realize is, like, I mean, again, it's, like, so fucking, like, cliché-how-out, but that is, like, you were like, "Fuck, this is genuinely why it's fun." Like, because you're getting to share this moment with other people, and it's not anything to do with, like, you say, getting to a point, like, getting to the Brits and winning a Brit was very... I was having a fucking great night that night, regardless. Do you know what I mean? There was nothing that was going to, like... Either way. Yeah, do you know what I mean? I mean, I've had loss. I wouldn't have been like, "Ah, fuck, I lost. Night's ruined. I'm going home." It would have been like, "All right, cool. Let's fucking kick on." It just so happened that I won these two things that had to carry both of the rest of the night. Do you know what I mean? Then I think it was a hindrance. No, but, eh... But then, like, then, going to the Grammys, I remember Grammys started to finish, and I think, like, I was trying to attack the whole time. It was fucking dreadful. Hated every moment of it. And when we didn't win, I mean, we're feeling like, "Oh, thank God." And, like, I just kind of, like, melted away. Because it was like, "Thank fuck. I don't need to go and do that. Shit." I don't know if it maybe was like... Fuck, I don't know if I'm in my head. I'm like, "Oh, fuck, if we were to win something like that, that's, like, more and more eyes on you that maybe you can't handle at this moment in time.


Future goals (01:35:42)

I don't know if I was at my body, like, tell me something, but... I fucking hated the Grammys. Pish." Like, all these things were like... And at that time, it was just me, my manager, and, like, the guys who I wrote, so I really loved with, like, I think when you can see the people... I mean, I love them to bits, but... And when you can see, like, the people you're, like, who have kind of made you who you are and as it were, enjoying the things that you're enjoying and seeing it unfold and stuff like that, I think that's the buzz. So how do you make sure... How do you take that with you going forward? Well, hopefully the record does well enough next time that I can ask some more tickets to things. Do you know what I mean? That's honestly, like, but I think that's, like... Like, it's just keeping those people close. And, like, that's not a thing about COVID and going back to, like, I live from my pain. I didn't have a flat offer. I lived from my parents because I was on tour all the time. I never needed a house. So I moved out during COVID and stuff, and it's like that realizing, like... Like... No matter what... However things go, no matter where you go, no matter what happens in your career, I fucking... It's like, it's always just going to come back to that and those people and those... And, like, where your roots are and stuff. I don't think it's... It's just, for me, that's... It kind of reaffirms the importance of all that stuff, COVID, like, being there and being back. And, yeah, I think that was, for me, that COVID, for me, that was kind of what I got out of it. And I think, for me, it's just then taking that forward and trying. At any time, I can't share moments like that with people. Even if it means that I was doing it on a world show in America, flying some people out and doing it. And it's like... I'm fucking... It's like not worrying about, like, "Oh, for my experience, fuck it, "fly the mic because it's going to make the moment." It's going to make the moment. Yeah, it's going to make... Exactly, yeah. It's going to make it fucking what it is, and it's going to fucking... That's the best. Yeah. Do you have any goals, or do you have any of those big bucket list-style goals where you go, "Fucking hell, that would be." I'd like to write a song for a film. Okay. That's kind of my only thing. Do you want to do something like that? No, no, no. I don't know if I'm... I don't know if I'm me. I don't know if I'm swabbing us to have that sort of thingy, but I don't know, man, let anything, anything would be good. But I think, even if it's like... I don't know, some indie film, or whatever, it doesn't have to be fucking thingy. I just like, I quite like the idea of... That's like a new challenge, like, writing for... I wrote for a game once. That was quite fun. I enjoyed that. Can you do it for a podcast? Yeah, fucking show. I like it. Like, come on, battle on the boys. I've seen your net worth, and you're not cheap. Yeah. But, yeah, so that, for me, that's kind of... I don't really have any, like, in terms of, like, chart positions and all that. Again, I never really had that first time around, and I think it's only going to be disappointed in situations like that. I think maybe... Yeah, I don't really know. I just kind of, again, it's meant to be fun, and I think me putting goals on things. The way my mind works would kind of strip that out of some of the fun of it. Do you know what I mean? So, yeah, the film thing would be good, and I hope the people who really, really love the first album really, really love the second album, doesn't have to be more, like, more people, but the people who, like, really, really carry the album with them and still are fucking, like, still fucking correct to turn. I'm still fucking playing it over and over again. I hope that they love the second record, and I hope that I did that and they rise to the justice, because they're nine and a half. What about personal goals? So, like, when I look at my personal life, I go, "Okay, there's a certain balance and structure "to my personal life that I hope to achieve someday." I think I still need to learn how to see no to things. I think I'm getting... I've canceled shows before, and all the rest of it, but I'm quite bad at, like, "I fuck if I say no to that, that's an opportunity "that just won't come back," or whatever. I need to learn, I'd like to be able to do that just from all sort of personal life. I'd like to do some travelling that isn't relating to work at some point. I guess that's, like, taking time for myself out of, like... That was kind of the plan over COVID, like, what became COVID, that I was going to go and see all these places and actually just take some time. So, I'd like to do that. Kids, relationships. I don't know. I mean, I'd really accept the dollars to be nice. Not something I'm seeking at the moment. Why are all these apps in, just for BDSM? Yeah, just for BDSM. Just for my kinks, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, just for my kinks. But I don't know what I think. I still need to have, like... I like meeting new people and hanging out with new people and, like... Shagging in that, I guess. I did it. I did it. I did it. I did it. It's silly. Sorry about that. But I don't really have, like... At least I came up with a big person fucking... If I met a big person, then I'd be banged on, like, I'd be buzzed. But, like, just, I think right now as well, it's a bit unfair for the other person, if I'm fucking cussing, they're way, you know, the rest of it. They have to be quite an understanding, you know, being... Kids, I think that's fucking... Right now, it's not on my plans at all. You put your side back in your eyes. Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm 25, so it's like... I see my friends having... Some of my friends, one of my pals got four kids. Matt's saying, "Who's this me?" And it's like, "Oh, three kids, maybe I don't know." But I don't know, speaking that much anymore. It became a dad and I didn't want anything to be a fan. That just reminds me of how, like, I'm getting older. But, you know, like, people are not getting married and having kids on that. That's just, like, not my... A bag at all. And, again, I don't have anything wrong with that. People, like, doing their thing. I suspect you'll meet someone. That's what happened with me, where I was very much the type of person. I was like, "It's not fair on them. I'm too busy. My work comes first, blah, blah, blah." And then I met someone. I've seen this a lot with some musicians that were, like, rock stars, like, proper, like, you know, rock stars, drug stars. And then they meet someone and they just... Yeah. Because a lot of things go out and do stuff like that. It's boredom. Yeah. That is a lot. I don't know. I love a fucking night out. A lot of times you'll be like, "You'll be sitting over at Thursday night." "Wait, wait, Tuesday fucking night or something." And you're not on on Wednesday and you're like, "F I just bummed." So we just go get a few pints and then you end up out and you're fucking on a mountain. So it's like, I can totally see that, like, that switch. It's nice because you're being young. Yeah, totally. I don't understand. And that's the big thing as well. It's like remembering that I'm in my twenties is a big thing for me. Because sometimes I'm a bit like, fuck, let's just get this done. And, like, don't give a fucking, like, missing buff these and fucking wens and all this shit. You know, I think it's something that's important to remember my age and, like, shit, like, to actually take time for life rather than just slaving away at work. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the previous guest asks a question to the next guest. You might have seen it before.


Final Questions

The last guest question (01:42:45)

The previous guest asked you a question, but I'm actually going to ask a follow-up question to this as well. The question they left for you was not knowing who they left it for was kind of interesting question that they left it for you. But would you rather win the Premier League, win an Oscar or headline Glastonbury? I mean, I think, you know what, actually, see, I do think there's something unreal about, like, see being that she's scoring, like, a great goal. She's doing soccer, right? Yeah, fuck me. I'm sure you've heard about it. I'll be like a manager, I'll stand and say, like, take a class. But, like, at the sound of it that I've always thought, fuck, that'd be the best feeling ever, like, but I'm a sales fan, so, like, old fund, I'll be, like, scoring, like, a fucking, the winning goal, 90th minute, fucking, whatever, like, that must be unreal. But obviously, just because I'm a musician, I mean, headlining Glastonbury, be pretty fucking. So I kind of, that's why I knew it would be a bit of an easier question for you. So I'm going to ask a question which we mentioned earlier on, which was caused a bit of urecomon in your life, which is, how are you doing? I'm good, I think. Definitely not, I think over the last two, three weeks, I've really come back to, like, being myself. I think I was maybe in a bit of a, not like a rut, but like, a funny patch of the few weeks prior. I think I was maybe going out a bit too much, kind of feeling a bit dejected, because it, because we're just like this, we'll, as I've said a bit, it's long run up to releasing this first single. We've been a bit dejected a bit of that and stuff, and just overall, just anxiety, just, like, really fucking getting the better of me. But I think over the last, like, couple of weeks of kind of coming at the other end of it, so I feel pretty good. I feel quite optimistic. But yeah, there's still, yeah, anxiety's always there, but I think, yeah, I'm very, I'm happy at the minute, which is good, it's most, I can ask for. Operating 80%, it's a fucking class. I can see the caution in the words, which is, it's just telling. But you know what, I couldn't be more, like, I don't sit here and gas people up or really bullshit them, because I don't really have to, you can say other things. I genuinely love your music. Thank you so much. And I really, really mean that. Like, I genuinely sincerely mean that. I've watched your acoustic tracks on your covers on YouTube of your own songs. Yeah, totally. I've watched all of it, and I couldn't be more excited to hear whatever you do next. And I'm not even, even as a fan of yours, I'm not even anticipating it's going to be the same as last time. I'm actually just so intrigued to hear another Lewis. I know that, and when I say another Lewis, I just mean more Lewis. More from you, because, you know, your album was actually quite, I think, because you have so many hits on, hits on there, it can feel a little bit short in hindsight. Yeah, I thought. You've played, I've played the song so many times, so I'm so excited for that. And I also want to thank you generally, because it's so refreshing for someone to be so unbelievably open and honest with things, with some of the issues you talk about, because you won't, you won't know until, you know, after this conversation comes out how many people you help by doing that. Jack came on and talked about his health anxiety. Jack said online he got thousands of messages a day of people thanking him, because there's not enough people talking about it. What's the incentive to do so? There is an incentive, but doesn't appear to be one. It seems to be a greater cost. So thank you for that, because we need to have more of these conversations. Talk. Especially about therapy and being a man and being open about your feelings. And thank you for doing this. It's a huge honor. No, my honest, thank you so much for having me. It's honestly so refreshing to actually have a fucking film conversation and depth conversation with that stuff, because no one has ever asked me the questions that you've asked me today. So it's good to actually talk. I feel lighter. Great. Quick one. We have a brand new sponsor on this podcast, which I'm very excited to tell you about. They're a brand called BlueJeans by Verizon, and they are a video conferencing and collaboration tool that has changed the game for our team. So I'm so glad to be working with them, because as you know, one of the most important things for me is when we have a sponsor, it is part of my world. It is part of my life. It is part of my companies. As someone who's on calls pretty much 80% of the day building my businesses and speaking to my teams all over the world, it's the guaranteed security that differentiates BlueJeans from all of the other options that are out there in terms of video conferencing. Their enterprise-grade security means you can protect your organization from malicious attacks and establish real trust with everyone that joins your meeting. And that is something. There are so many things that make sense and make BlueJeans a better option than the sort of competitors out there. And I'll be talking about all of those aspects, those features and the reasons why I use BlueJeans in the coming episodes. If you want to check it out, you can head to www.blueJeans.com to learn more. My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower, and she said to me that she tried the heel protein shake, which lives on my fridge over there. And she said, "It's amazing. Low calories, you get your 20 odd grams of protein, you get your 26 vitamins and minerals, and it's nutritionally complete." In the protein space, there's lots of things, but it's hard to find something that is nice, especially when consumed just with water. And that is nutritionally complete, and that has about 100 calories in total, while also giving you your 20 grams of protein. If you haven't tried the heel protein product, do give it a try. The salted caramel one, if you put some ice cubes in it and you put it in a blender and you try it, is as good as pretty much any milkshake on the market, just mixed with water. It's been a game changer for me because I'm trying to drop my calorie intake and I'm trying to be a little bit more healthy with my diet, so this is where heel fits in my life. Thank you, heel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is where my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one.


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