Roman Kemp: Why Communication Is More Important Than Ever | E123 | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Roman Kemp: Why Communication Is More Important Than Ever | E123".

1970-01-02T07:40:31.000Z

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Introduction

Intro (00:00)

Could you do me a quick favor if you're listening to this? Please hit the follow or subscribe button. It helps more than you know, and we invite subscribers in every month to watch the show in person. Basically, that documentary became my own therapy. She said he's gone. Still such a weird thing that people don't want to talk about, but yet is the biggest killer in men our age. Roman camp is truly remarkable and deeply inspiring. It's all about creating tools in our brain to learn how to deal with these issues. Your brain becomes Mike Tyson and is just beating you up and you've not had one boxing lesson in your life. So you just can't do anything. You're just taking it. If you had told me 10 years ago that would be my job and that's what people know me for. Honestly, we'd not even know where that would have even started. I'm pleased that I've got a good core friend group around me. I'm glad that I've got my parents around me. I've got that I've gone out there and I've taught myself the tools that I need to go and fight Mike Tyson in there and be able to go up against him. And that's why I feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now. Without further ado, I'm Stephen Bartlett and this is the Diaries CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.


Personal Background And Mental Health Awareness

Family (01:08)

Roman. Hello. What were you like as a kid? Tell me. As a kid, I was, I'd say, verging on, verging on attention seeker and yet always just performing, I guess. I loved mimicking and doing impressions and things like that. Like when I first realized that I could do impressions, I would do a nonstop and I would go home. I'd watch my teachers and I'd say to my parents, oh, this is what my teacher did today. And I wouldn't just say what they said. I would perform it for them, how they did it. So I think I was very much so like high energy kid. I would say, verging on an ADHD kind of assumption, but it was definitely a big change. Kind of when I went through my teenage years. Brothers and sisters. Old sister 32. Very different from you. Yeah, but to be honest, like she, yes, she is, to be honest. She kind of, she's someone that her name's Harley, Harley Moon. One word, very pretentious parents, basically. Doesn't necessarily mean anything. I think my parents were, must have been slightly intoxicated after the birth. And it was a full moon. So they named her Harley Moon, but kids with Harley Moon and Roman at that time were a little bit strange. So yeah, just no greater meaning other than the very pretentious parents. But yeah, she's, she's an amazing kind of person. I got my work ethic from her. From your sister? From my sister. Yeah. My mom and my dad are really supportive and they're always like, you know, there in terms of like anything I do is great. They love it. And it like couldn't ask about parents. But Harley was the first person I knew that she went out at 15 and was straight away at 14, whatever it was, was like, I need to get sat at her job straight away. I like, she was the one doing it. Like she wanted to do it. She was asking my parents when can she go and do it. And I used to be quite, this part of me that was a bit jealous of that. Because she kind of had this like maturity, quite early on, where she was making money and she went out there and she became a, a portrait photographer and then a big celebrity portrait photographer and was being hugely successful. So she was that person that I was like, I need to keep up, basically. When you say, I need to keep up, basically, or a lot of the stuff that I read about you and your relationship with your dad in particular, there was some, it felt like from reading what I read that there was some issues with you feeling, I guess not good enough because of his, because of the fact that he'd been so successful in his career as a mom's camp. Is that accurate? Yes and no, because, to be honest, I'm so, again, I'm so lucky because the parents that I have are so supportive of what I want to do. And it's the same way, however they've parented me as the same way I want to be with my children. I'm a massive family person. I believe that everything I'm doing now is for, is for my family to create better people. But I think with my dad and my mum in that respect, my mum was part of the first group to ever perform in Asia. Do you know what I mean? Like in terms of WAM and Pepsi and Shirley was insane. You know, my dad part of Spandau and acting career and all these types of things, I'm insanely proud of that. So for me to then say, I'm not good enough for it or could never better it, puts a downer on those things. I think so. I put it kind of in separate boxes. I'm not trying to emulate them because in my head, they will always be my heroes. I sat here with Eddie Hahn and other people like Umar from, from he runs prittlething.com and his dad, obviously runs boo-hoo.com, which you've never found. And they often spoke to that feeling of when you've got successful parents, it can feel like a, there can be thoughts that creep in that make you think, often, logically, especially in the case of all those individuals I've described, that you've got a mountain to emulate or there's pressure. Yeah, but that's society. I always use this as an example. It's like, you look at any famous kid that there is, me myself being an offspring of someone who is famous, two people that are famous, I will still look at Brooklyn Beckham and see him getting a scholarship for a photography thing and go, "Oh, I bet he's got that because of his dad." And I'll catch myself doing that. And then, but that's a normal thing to feel. That's a normal thing to feel. I'm sure he hasn't. I'm sure he's got great talents. But I fully understand why people would look at me and go, "Oh, he's got to where he is because of his dad." Let me tell you, at the beginning, I asked my dad, "Hook me up, like, help me out." And he couldn't, like, he genuinely liked that because of what I wanted to do was different. But I would say with my dad, it's never the pressure. I'm with my mom. It's never the pressure of how well you're doing and like, you know, tick this off, tick this off. Look what I've done. You've got to do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. It's not that. The hardest thing with my old man and my mom, for that matter, is the public perception of them is how it is, which is they are so nice. And like, they're these amazing people. I always feel like for me and my sister, there's more of a pressure for me to be able to have a good relationship and a wife that, in the way that my dad has, that for me is more of a pressure than anything to do with work. The relationship that they have weighs massively on me because I don't want to ever go through a divorce. I don't want to ever, you know, go through problems because they never did. So when people ask me that question, I'd rather like, I'd do anything to have their relationship over their career.


Aspirations (07:20)

Yeah. When you were that age, say like 14, 15, when you were thinking about what you wanted to be, when you grew up, what was your aspirations at that point? I signed a record deal at 15, which came through in such a weird way. Like, it was like meeting people and someone saying, "Would you want to try and do songwriting?" And I had an interest in it and I worked with a few people, worked in management companies as a Saturday job. And then they were like, "Yeah, cool. Let's do it." And I signed a development deal with universal music, which basically means you're the label's bitch, right? Where you'll be a part of any project that they want you to be a part of. So they basically own any output that you have. And what you can do. Oh, I mean, you got paid at 15. It was okay. And look, at the same time, I was being able to sit in meetings with people who are now heads of labels and meet all these people and kind of grasp an understanding. It's definitely helped with me now, having interviewed so many artists in terms of what they're going through because I've witnessed some form of that. And I did that for three years, about three years, from when I was 15 to 18. Hey, listen, when I signed a deal at 15 and then I went into doing my GCSEs. No, I know the bad on my GCSEs. I cooked care less. I literally walked into some of my GCSEs. I walked in the room, some of my name I walked out. I got you in maths because of some of my name. Like, I was distracted at that age. And I kind of guess I knew I didn't know exactly what it was, but I knew that world was normal to me. And like the music world was normal to me. The film world was normal to me because I've grown up in it. And I guess that's why I wanted to do it. It's never been anything to do with fame in our house. Do you know what I mean?


CAREER EXPECTATION (09:19)

The idea of what you want to do when you're older was never attached to, "Oh, well, I'll be really famous if I do that." Yeah. What was your first real job then? Real job. Yeah. So no, so I basically, I did universal for a while, and worked in a band and bands and projects or whatever, right? And I then reached a point where that all ended, like really abruptly. Partly because I just couldn't do it anymore. And it was a lot. I felt like it was a lot to take in. And I remember just sitting with my mom and just like, I was like, it must have been 18. And I was just crying. And I was just like, I just, I can't be a part of this. Like this is too much. Like the expectation on young kids in the music industry is a lot. What was what was them? Well, it's like, it's a lot. You're putting in your own emotional being into music or into this kind of thing. I guess the only way I can describe it is how kids must feel if they're young footballers and they're trying to make it and they get cut from teams. It's a lot of emotion going up and down and up and down. You win at one point and then the loss is so hard. And when you're going through puberty, imagine that at the same time. You don't know how to handle that. And what were they trying to make you into a songwriter? No, so I was, I was part of bands. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They put me in bands. I was, you know, bass playing or it was like, oh, would you want to write a song for other people? Do you want to do this, this and that? And don't get me wrong. It was an amazing experience. And one that I would still do now, 100%. I think that again, it's everything that I've done obviously makes me the person that I am now and gives me the ability to do what I do now. And I just, at that point, had just reached a moment where I was like, I can't do it anymore. So, and then I said to my mom, I was like, I need to do something that is nowhere near media. And I'm just going to go and get a regular job every day. And I ended up getting a job basically just cleaning toilets and cleaning equipment in a gym near me. And I did that for about a year and a half. And it was horrible. Fucking hell. A year and a half, is it? It was, it was, it wasn't great. It wasn't great. I went out there, I did all the, what was it? PC qualifications and all that type of stuff. So that I could work in a, in a gym. But it literally just glorified toilet cleaner, essentially. Like I was just cleaning, cleaning running machines for about a year and a half. And then during that time, I kind of realized that my creative side was like really struggling in terms of like, I couldn't, I've always wanted to create and do stuff. So I had, I knew how to like edit film. And I knew how to film as well. And so with my money from working at the gym, I went out, bought a DSLR, started filming stuff and filming for friends and like rappers and like, like, grime music videos and things like that. Just to make some extra cash. And at the same time, on the weekends, I just made my own stuff. And I put it on YouTube and I just have fun with it. You know, I knew that world was a world because I was, I had come from a school where I sat next, my classmate was KSI. But that in that moment, you're like, so I know that's possible. And I think that's something that's so important for so many people when they know it's possible. And that's the problem with , you know, sometimes that's where I think people get stuck in worst case, and worst case to say is a class system, because they don't know what you can do and what your potential could go to. But you know, I'd seen JJ do it at the time and do it and all those types of kids. And I was like, you know what, this is this amazing thing that they're doing. I'll give it a go. And from there, I was on it just kind of turn into this presenter role, I guess. Did you ever have an intention of doing presenting? No, God, no. Absolutely not. I would have been very happy just doing camera. Genuinely. I love like, I've always, still to this day, I will stand by by this time I'm 60 or whenever at least directed one feature film. Wow. 100%. No, I know I'll do it because I'll make it happen. I don't get how low budget it is, but I will do it. So how, how, so tell me about your first proper presenting gig then, and how that came about.


First Presenting Gig (13:47)

There was a football company called Football Daily. Oh, I know them. Yeah. And so this was right at the start of when they started out. And there were just a group of lads that were just pushing out content. And I just had this idea for a video that was based on like a football pick up line video. And it was just silly. And they were like, well, could you just go out and film it for us? And I was like, yeah, fine. And then they were like, actually, do you want to, do you want to just be in it and do it if that would be because it was cheaper and quicker. Yeah. Right. So I was like, okay, let's go out and do it. And then from that, they then started asking me to go on to like chat about football. I mean, football, something that's so massive and tells me my life. I'm an Arsenal fan. Well, I'm sorry about that. But how are you? Many night. Oh, many night away from London. I don't hear a man's union accent. So that's really nice. No, so it's like, I started doing like silly kind of prank videos that then turn into chatting. But it kind of all merged into one. I ended up getting gigs with channel four, MTV. Capital were asking me to do like outside broadcasty bits, basically just like for the breakfast show, they'll go, let's cross over to Roman, who's not Wimbledon. You know what I mean? But those are so important. Those every like, you know, with presenting is, is, is air miles, is you've got to do it like, and you've got to do all of those jobs because they throw different challenges to you every time, you know, and they will come back and you'll look back and you'll go, I'm so pleased I did that really shit job because I know what I got out of it. You know, there is no, there's, there's never a thing is a bad job ever, because you will always get one thing out of it, whether that just solely be I've done jobs, I never want to talk about ever again in my life, like in terms of like how bad they were.


You never look back and think that was a bad opportunity (15:30)

But I learned that from them. So the next time I come to that point and I go, hang on, this is one of them. Yeah. So therefore, it was a good job to take. I'm not making that mistake later. At that time in your life, did you, did you at that point have an idea of what you wanted to do in the future when you were doing the football daily stuff? If I'm honest, I wanted to, I just wanted to be football presenting because that's what I loved. And I was enjoying myself. I was, I was happy. And I was at a point where I feel like I'm getting paid to do something good. I don't feel like I should be paid for, you know, and I think that's, that's always been my focus always. It always has been, I'm a happy doing it. Yes. Okay. We'll keep on doing it. And I think that's the most important with anyone. My mom actually, again, it was a conversation with my mom that she said to me, she was like, what is it that you want to do? And I was like, I don't know. I don't know. You know, I had so many things. I was like, should I, should I try and be an actor? Because that's what my dad did. That I should I try and do music because that's what my mom and dad do. Should I stay there? And then she was like, no, no, no, but forget about that. What do you like love doing? Like, what makes you happy? And I was just like, I don't know. Just chatting about football with my mates. She was like, well, why can't you chat about football and make that your job? And I was like, well, I don't know anyone in that. And she goes, well, why can't you just make your own stuff and show people that you can do it? I can always try to. I'm like, you're like, honestly, like, like it's not saying that, but these conversations are real conversations that she had with me. She was literally saying, well, you just have to show people that you can do that. And I was like, how am I going to walk into Sky Sports? She was like, why not? My mom really kind of, again, my dad, my dad is too nice. He's too good of a cheerleader. Anything I want to, if I said, if I said, you know, when I was working at the gym or anything like that, if I said, oh, I had to clean this treadmill today. And I see he goes, yeah, but I saw it. And it was so good. It was so good. But that's what I mean, you know, the best parents, I couldn't have lucked out more, you know, if we are living in a matrix world where you select your pod of who your parents are, I have done so well. But yeah, my mom was the person that was really like, you know, what is it you love? And I said that. And she was like, you know, create your job, you know, make it. And I did. You know, she's my mom's very spiritual in terms of manifesting. And I listen, I'm more a coincidence person. But yeah, she, I think my mom always says this one thing to me, which I will have forever and I will always teach to my kids. And I think, you know, going back to what you were saying about that pressure of having parents that do what I do, you know, and we're all part of the same world. Having famous parents, the one word that people will constantly say to you is that you're lucky, constant. Yeah, it will constantly say to you, yeah, but you are lucky because you got this or you got lucky because your parents did this. And I always just say to my mom, I was like, I've just done this really cool thing. And all people say to me is, oh, yeah, but you got lucky. It's like, so my mom used to say to me, she was like, she was like, yeah, but break that down and, you know, break down what what luck actually is. And she was the first person to say that phrase to me where she said, you know, luck is when preparation meets opportunity. And it's so right. You know, I prepared myself in terms of I went out and I did the mileage. I did all the rubbish jobs. I learned about football, you know, all those types of things. I spent those hours, you know, wanting to be the best I could be at it. And then it just so happened that an opportunity in life arose where I could show that skill set. And from now on, that's all I ever look at like cats, you know, and so when people say that I was working on something, I was like, yeah, but I prepared to be in that situation. And it was fake that the opportunity was there.


Luck is when opportunity meets preparation - Oprah (19:27)

100%. I mean, I even get that now. People will say to me that I got lucky. And I was, I was like one particular example, which was when I, when I was 18, broke kid up in Manchester and Moss site, see, Manchester, yeah, yeah, I've been Manchester and I was living in Moss site. And I sent an email at 3am in the morning to the first person that came up on LinkedIn asking if they'd invested my business. And I was asking them for five grand. They replied within a couple of hours and said they would if I, if I assemble the team. And I was super lucky. The first person I emailed gave me five grand. I was up at 3am in the morning. I show the email on stage where I removed the times, the little thing blocking the timestamp. And I go, you can call it luck, but I know where you were at 3am on that Saturday morning. And so again, but you created that opportunity. And that's what I'm saying, like that, that opportunity just was there. And you had to have all the back knowledge to be able to do to provide it. You just went to someone and said, Oh, I want that. And then they were like, well, what have you got to show for it? And you had nothing. It wouldn't have done it. And another, another example that I actually learned actually from someone, someone was interviewing me the other day. If I got a dice and I rolled it a thousand times, eventually I'm going to get like, if a queen, I say, eventually I'm going to get heads 10 times in a row just because I flip it a thousand times. Yeah. If I flip it a hundred times, that might not happen. But again, it's like, increasing the opportunity because of the amount of just flips.


Olly's break into the industry (20:43)

If I had prepared in my life to do a different type of job, I'm sure there are so many opportunities that I have missed in this life that I'm living that would have been better for a different. That's basically how there's constant opportunities, especially when, you know, that's why we're so fortunate to live in a place like, you know, we live in London, like, well, I live in London. I mean, I'm so fortunate to be able to be here and, and, you know, not be in some, you know, shit part town. That's why it always, that's why, to be honest, that's why I always love, you know, I really like, I really like, you know, the kind of grime scene and the, the rap scene in the UK and all that type of stuff because these kids have come up from shit like bad areas with no, so low opportunities and they've made time with it, you know, which is great. So when did you get the call from capital and how did that happen? So I had, I had a call from them that was like, yeah, can you come and do, this was what I was doing. I must have been doing football daily stuff. I was doing stuff for like full music, like just little hosting bits online. And then someone called me and they said, oh, you come and do a demo, like come in and just do like a quick, let's hear how your voice sounds. So I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, come in. Did that, thought nothing of it, didn't really hear back, then a few weeks later, we do some outside broadcasting bits where I remember I had to go to Wimbledon and chat to people just in the queue rubbish, like, you know what I mean, like rubbish stuff, but all air miles, you know, all stuff that to this day, I still know exactly what they taught me in my first demo. And after that, it kind of went to a point where I, they offered me a show that was like, they were like, yeah, you can do like bit, bit role show. So like 1am to 4am on a weekend, every two weekends. Do you know what I mean? And you're like, and you know, a lot of people are like, you know, all my mates are getting more like, well, graveyard shift, but I was like, yeah, but I'm going to, well, to be honest, I, yeah, well, that won that. It was so great because it was in the middle of the night, I could make any mistake I wanted. No bosses listening, no one cares, right? I could learn, I learned, you know, all the buttons and all those types of things. I don't know. I'm like, I know radio presenters now that are like, what do you mean you do the buttons? Like, yeah. Yeah, more fun. Like, you know what I mean? So it was again, it was that moment where I had to learn and I knew that and I wanted to learn the craft as much as possible. And with radio, I kind of just accidentally fell in love with it. If you had told me 10 years ago that I was hosting radio and that would be my job and that's what people know me for. I would honestly would not even know where that would have even started. Crazy, that. Which is odd. And it's hard because I get, you get a lot of radio is a very, you know, as I say, it's a clicky place because a lot of people went to student radio and like, you know what I mean? Like those types of things. And I didn't take that natural path. I, to be totally honest with you, I said to myself, I was like, right, I'm on Capitol now. This is when I was 22. Yeah, when I was 20, yeah, 21, 22. And I said to myself, I was like, right, I'm doing 1 a.m. to 4 a.m. every couple of weekends now within, well, in 10 years, I want to be doing the breakfast show. And I did it in three, two and a half, three. And like that for me is still like the best, you know, achievement that I can name for myself. Why do you think, why do you think you did so well in radio? Because I kept pushing. And I kept, I kept, like I always like, I speak to, you know, younger radio presenters now or even presenters that are there. And I always say, what show are you doing? All this type of stuff. And then they'll be worried to say what I'm now say to them, what showed you want to do. And they won't want to say it because there's someone else there. But it's like, well, if you don't, do you know what I mean? Like I was there every single day. I know every, every other week, I was knocking on the boss's door saying, I'm better than that person. I can make it better. I can do this better. I can this better. You got to do it. No one's no one knows you something. Do you know what I mean?


What Olly did better than everyone else (25:13)

No one owes you that opportunity to have a better show or a better TV show or whatever. You know, if I go to a commissioner at a TV channel, I sure as hell have to go in there with a better idea than what they've currently got. Otherwise, what's pointing to being there? I'll sit there and go, Oh, can you please give me a show? No, like I've got to prove that. I've got to show why. And that's all I did on on on on on on. I remember they gave me. They they said to me, there was like, there wasn't any show slots going. And I was like, what have you got? And then we're like Saturday five till eight, which was a horrendous show slot because five p.m. to eight p.m. which is like everyone knows that is dog territory. How come like just because it's just low ratings, right? People getting ready to go out, you know what I mean on a Saturday night. And I was really listening to the radio, those things, not, it's not quite 8 p.m. where you're going to get in doing pre drinks and those types of things. So it's just low ratings, statistics. And I was like, I don't care, give me the show. I was like, I like you mean, then we took that and me and and Joe and my producer, when we we turn we get we gave it the the highest the highest ratings within that slot that there's ever been for one. And it did some record in terms of weekend numbers ever on Capitol. Why? Because we changed it before Capitol was always constant, happy, happy, happy as quickly as you can in between the song, say as little as possible, move on, move on, move on, move on. I wanted to create a show where I was like, no, that's not what if Saturday at five o'clock is quite a dead period for kids that were my age at that time, which is like 2023. And I was like, a lot of my mates are these YouTubers and these types of things. When I get some of them on, we'll just play some games, we'll have more fun with it. And we just kind of created this a vibe, you know, instead of just going the classic route of what of what they wanted to do. And because it was a rubbish lot, they just kind of said to me, try it out. And we tried it and did it, you know, but it's just having that belief and just being like, bang on the door and be like, if it works, it works, if it doesn't, it doesn't take it off me. So I'm pleased that we did that. And that kind of led to me then going into like an evening show slot. Quick one, there is a really exciting new product coming from here, which the founder Julian told me about yesterday on WhatsApp. And it's something I've wanted from here for a long time, because when I look at my kind of nutrition stack, the things that I have and consume every single day to keep me performing at my best in a good shape and healthy, there's one thing missing, which you'll currently don't do. And to get that message from Julian yesterday and to know it's on its way is tremendously exciting. The thing about heel is they always focus on a couple of core principles, which is making sure that the stuff inside the products are not only nutritionally complete, but they're sourced from suppliers that provide the best quality nutrition. And to know that heel are now going into more categories that are essential to my nutrition stack is incredibly exciting. So if you're starting your heel journey or you haven't started your heel journey, my recommendation is to get the starter pack they have on the website. I'll link it down below. And that gives you a little bit of all the products in a box. And then from that, you can decide which products are for you and where they fit in your life. And I think if you're anything like me, you might just fall in love with the brand.


Did you know something was troubling Joe? (28:40)

You went on to do a documentary, which I watched, which was incredibly moving for a number of reasons. Personally, I've got a one of my maybe my best friend and my business partner for the first seven or eight years was was depressed as we were running the business and I had no idea. So I only actually found out in hindsight, and he said to me, when he came on this podcast, actually afterwards, after he had had a problem with alcohol and I'd caught him in the laundry room, we lived together at like three in the morning, drinking alcohol. And I'd, because at the time, I didn't understand what mental health disorders were. So I just thought, I've got, he's a pisshead. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? But obviously, I've come to learn that that's a symptom. Yeah, of course. And then it all came to a head one day where he got really drunk and started exposing himself in front of employees and so a long story. But then we had a chat and it was the first time we had a chat about what was going on, and anger or assumption. And then he opened up to me and we cried on some Sunday in the office and he started his journey to seeing a therapist, etc. Your documentary was just, it was just exceptional for so many reasons. Can you take me through? Yeah. Because I know that you're working alongside your best friend Joe at the radio. Can you take me through? I guess the first question is, did you know anything was at all troubling Joe? No. I known Joe for since I started six years, six years straight, being with that person every single day, almost like a boyfriend. Like we work together every day, we go out all the time, like after shows, all those types of stuff, weekends go out. If I had lined up, I'd say even I'd go over 10, 20, if I had 30 mates, I'd say 30 mates. I would probably put him last, who I would suspect would ever do anything like that. I mean, to put it into context, obviously, a documentary we were talking about, obviously being about male suicide and male depression. It was even this world that I'm in now, I really do not wish I was part of this one. Like in terms of like, I wish I didn't have people talking to me about suicide, but this is where we are. You see how life goes, that's it. But when it came to Joe, my producer, yeah, he was the first person when I went to Wimbledon that day, he was the first person I met. When I did my demo for the first time, he was that person that was there with me. This is someone that taught me everything I know in terms of my professional being now on in terms of radio. He taught me everything and sat next to me literally two foot away from me every day on every single show. You know, last year, as I say, go out together, all those types of things. But I think Joe took his own life in August last year. And that for me was a moment where I kind of, I had dealt with my own kind of suicidal thoughts and my own kind of depression. And Joe was very much aware of that, which is why it was so strange to me and why I felt like I had this piece of paper in front of me that said everything you know about, or you think you know about someone that is suicidal in quotes is wrong because it doesn't have any form of symptom because that's why each suicide is different to the next. And you can't nullify it. You can't be like, oh, if someone is, you'll know someone's suicidal because they'll look like this, this, this, this, this, you'll never find those answers, which is a scary thought. But it's also, you know, like what you said there, like you didn't know that mental health is your thing. That puts you in a higher risk category than it puts me. The majority of men that take their own life have no idea that mental health disorders even are a thing. Most of them think that people are just kind of lying or people are just attention seeking when they say they have depression. That's over 70% of men that take their own life are in that situation. They see it as a means to an end. They don't like what's going on in their life. How do I make it stop? Take your own life. It's, it's, it's so strange. So yeah, so sorry in a long winded way, I would never have thought that Joe would have been that person at all. That really does make you think about all your friends, right? What is that? But that's why, but that's why like, wow, you know, and look, when, when I, when it came to, to make an documentary, Joe died in August, I started making that dog in November. Two months, right? Because I, one, all I know how to do is through creative stuff. I don't, my writing might, you know what I mean? I write something down. I'm not going to lobby government because I don't know how to do that. You know, all those types of things. I just know how to make something. And, and I knew also selfishly, I knew that if I do a doc, I'm going to be able to meet people that have tried to take their own life. I'm going to be able to meet psychiatrists. I'm going to be able to meet professors and learn the science because I was so convinced in my head, I was like, I need to know all the things that I need to be looking out for, for my other friends. Yeah. Basically that documentary became my own therapy and, and people watched it. And I think that's why, you know, I realized after that shit, like it is one, it's everywhere. And two, there is no, there's no way of telling. So therefore, the only people that can help those people are their friends. And that's what the documentary is. It's not a documentary about suicide. It's a documentary about friendship and how we now have to take ownership of our mates. What did that journey of creating that documentary and your own experiences teach you about?


What have you learned from your journey through commercial applications of addressing trauma through psychedelics? (34:51)

And this is one of the things that's really fascinated me for a long time. It's like, we're seeing this apparent increase in mental health disorders. And I say apparent because sometimes it's hard to distinguish whether it's because of the increase in awareness that we have more people putting their hand up and say, listen, I'm suffering or it's because of the world has changed social media, whatever you want to call it. And people are living in a less healthy way. But so we're seeing this, the data shows that there's a pretty significant increase in mental health disorders, things like treatment resistant depression. I'm actually the creative director, one of the big investors in a tie, which is one of the maybe the biggest mental health psychedelics business in the world. So I do a lot of, I have spent a lot of time looking at clinical studies and obviously psychedelics, it comes at depression more from a place of like, what's happened to you versus what's wrong with you. Yeah, yeah. It's about like, I wasker. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's more sort of like trauma-centric approach to looking at. What have you learned about what's causing the increase in mental health disorders from your journey?


Why is mental health on the rise? (35:50)

It's tough. I mean, I can only speak from a male perspective, obviously. And I only ever have done because it's so easy. And the thing that the most, the thing that I saw the most was, oh, everyone's saying to me, well, it's social media, isn't it? And social media, the fastest is not like, like social media is there. Yes. And it can, you know, create a trigger or anything like that for someone that may be feeling down. I don't think it's the sole purpose. I can also be madly inspired by social media. I can also be made to feel really, really happy by social media. I think the main problem with men is purely down to, is almost toxic masculinity. It's our own kind of fault, you know, the pressures that we put on ourselves. To be the person that we want to be, to have the body that we want, to have the things that we want, and to have the job, the family, even the pressure that I put on myself to have the family that I should have, I worry that if I come to the age of 50 and I don't have that, how am I going to feel? And it's all about creating tools in our brain for kids as young as five and throughout primary school to learn how to deal with these issues. Throughout time, like, people have had depression.


Social media & the lockdown effect on mental health (37:21)

It's just how our brains have worked. You know what I mean? It's how our brains are wired. There's always been depression. Yeah, you know, you've got a right point in terms of like the data. I'll obviously show that there's more because there are more cases. Don't get me wrong, like throughout the pandemic, obviously, I always, like, I don't go too much into government stuff, but I think it's so like grotesque to even trap people in their homes in the way that obviously they did do and not think about the mental health side of things because they haven't completely ignored it. Like the government completely ignored how much of a problem mental health will be during the pandemic, people being on their own, not being able to go about their lives. And also the trauma that that's going to have later on in life for kids. I learned a stat there that is horrendous, right? And this is something that, you know, when I was asked, will I go out and make another documentary? And I think for this stat, I want to because I can't quite believe it. Any business or any school has to sign a health and safety declaration, right? And that's how it is. They all have to sign a piece of paper that says, if you hurt yourself here, we'll sign that 100% of schools up and down the country sign that there is also a declaration of mental health, right? Where a school has to look after a kid, if the traumatic event happens within school, they have to make sure that, you know, their mental health is looked after. In the UK, 2% of schools have signed that. So you're saying that 98% of schools up and down the UK look at mental health and go nothing to do with us. School is the most traumatic time in my life. If parents knew that, if parents knew that the schools don't care about your kids' mental health, then that is what is, you know, that's what's putting us in a situation now where men are killing themselves. Because we don't know we've never been taught how to deal with it.


Experiences With Mental Health

Fear of judgement (39:23)

No one's ever looked after us. Teaching us how to deal with it. You talk about toxic masculinity there. One of the things that's always associated with that is just men's lack of willingness to like make a phone call and to a friend and say, "Listen, I am not okay." And you know, you also have been very open about the day where you were feeling like that. And you're super woman mother. Once again, she called you coincidentally or? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, coincidentally. Well, it was kind of like, yeah, I went to call her and then like she had like a text there a couple times and then she just called me. Because you're feeling bad, so you text her? Yeah, I mean, people are telling you this, but when you're in that zone, you know, if you're in a absolute spiral, everything goes into a right blur. All I know is that I was in my house and I was in my pants and I could not stop crying and I couldn't stop worrying about everything and my head was going like a whirlwind. Like, I was worrying about stuff that wasn't even logical. Like what was your brain telling you? I can't even like, I can't even describe it. Like, it's like, the only way it feels like anything in my head that could have been a problem was a problem. Have you ever had like, you know, when you're, you're hung over and that well, like the next day, I don't know if you drink, but the next day, right? If you have a hangover, you have this like paranoia thing like throughout like stuff just makes you feel a little bit edgy. With sprees. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like that, but a million times. The only way I also, that I talk about it is like, it's like paranoia and it's like, your brain becomes Mike Tyson and is just beating you up and you've not had one boxing lesson in your life. So you're just kind of like, you can't do anything.


Feeling helpless (41:02)

You're just taking it, right? And it's like, you're things like, you look bad, you're not done this, your tax bills this, you're this, you're this, you're this, are you ever going to do this? You're never going to do this. The other loads of like, voices. And at that point, I just said to myself, you know, I can't, I don't know what to do. And the only thing I can think about is I was okay, well, I just, I'll just, you know, take my life. I'll just kill myself. That's how, honestly, I felt because I was like, that's the only way to stop this. And then as you said, my mum called me and she kept me on the phone for about an hour because I was at the house. And I'd like in my head, I was like, I'll just go to the train station and just, you know, do like, you know, take with a jump to front for trains. That's honestly what went through my head. And then it's like, at that point, I was like, okay, fine. And then I speak to my mum and my mum got there within an hour and we just kind of, you know what, I don't even remember, I don't even remember again that. It's a very strange place to be. It's a, it's a natural, you know, break, they call it a mental breakdown for a reason because I can't, your whole mind just blanks. And that's, that's the same thing that I've spoken to a lot of people that have attempted to take their own life. And they all say the same thing. Those moments that you have are completely like just so intense that your mind goes implodes and you don't even know. And that's why a lot of men will tell you that when they, you know, if they take it to that step, which is a huge step to decide, okay, I'm going to take my own life, a lot of men go, that was my happiest moment because I felt like in that time, I was in control of my life, which is a really scary thought and really sad thought that they feel like the biggest amount of clarity that they've ever had in their life. And the moment where they felt at peace was when they felt like, okay, I'm going to do this and everything will stop. But the problem is, is that that's not the answer. And it's, it's really not. And when I speak to, you know, in the document, I speak to Joe's mom, give you a minus is three months after her son has passed away. And she's had to be told that his son, who she's raised has taken his own life. She, she sums it up in such an amazing way, which is kind of touching on a very dangerous topic of selfishness around suicide, which a lot of people don't want to talk about. But it's the truth, which is suicide isn't necessarily a selfish act by that person. But the problem is, is that no matter what pain that person is feeling in that moment, no matter what pain you're going through in your head, or sadness, you do not get rid of that by taking your own life.


How sharing experience can help others (43:39)

All you are doing is you are transferring it to everyone around you. And you're transferring that there on average, 180 people get affected by one singular suicide. And that is what you are doing. And it is just the fact, you know, like for two months, I absolutely hated Joe. I hated him. After he died, I felt quite cold because I was just like, I could you do that? I felt like I could you leave me, your mom, your dad, your sister, I could do that. I could you let someone find you. Like, do you know what I mean? So it's it's it's it's in that that you realize that no matter how much that clarity is there, and you feel like you're escaping a problem, you are passing that on to someone else. And that's what's left behind you. And I know for a fact that I know, like, I would put so much money on that, if he was here right now, he'd look at me and say sorry, made a mistake 100%. So much so much I was thinking about there. So the first thing is my business partner also said to me he wanted he was considering jumping in front of a train. That's what he said to me in our private conversations. The other thing is just this this it's really it's really hard for someone who's not been through what you're describing there what you went through and evidently what Joe went through to understand the that place if you've not been there. That's this is why it's so valuable. And like I was thinking, you know, must as you kind of alluded to there, you didn't choose to for everybody to ask you in every interview about this topic. But the the immense value that it's like it's doing on someone like me who's been fortunate enough not to be in that place, who can now under from your description there that Mike Tyson description can now understand that how that must feel. Yeah, I can't but I can almost. But the thing is the thing is, what's better is because you are in a higher risk category than me. Yeah, I know which is terrifying. But now that I've spoken to you about it and you're not because because that's the problem is that you know, all of the guys that I spoke to said to me, they were like, didn't think mental health was a thing. Didn't think what I was going through was depression. Thought I was just rubbish and just thought I wasn't where I wanted to be in life. Just wanted that to end. That's the realization of it. You know, and again, it's that thing of, you know, it's a it's a topic that no one really wants to talk about and is also why I was so adamant that the worst, okay, this is the worst thing, right, is if you're in that state, you're mates in that state, right? The last thing he wants to do is talk to you about that. So why is the kind of push always, oh, if you're feeling depressed, you should talk. No, that's the last thing I want to do. If anything, you're going to make me revert more, right? You're going to go back more. The pressure should be placed on us as friends to make that call and to make that conversation happen with anyone that you would ever suspect. Even if you don't suspect it, make sure how sure are you? How sure are you if the people in your phone book or your close friends that they're not thinking these thoughts? Not sure enough. But that's what I mean. So all you have to do is have that conversation, but that will take you having that conversation. I always say I do a lot of talks for businesses about mental health. And I always leave it with, you know, go away today, choose three people in your phone book that you speak to regularly and ask them, ask them, are they okay, but do it twice, you know, and that's something that I learned from a group allowed to have lost their mate.


Are you okay? (47:34)

They now look after each other by asking at the beginning of the conversation, are you okay? Have the conversation and then just go back to it and be like, so tell me, are you okay? Choose three people, do that to okay rule on them and tell me that you haven't found something new from at least one of those people. It's fact like it's so messed up that us as a society, especially living in London, like, you know, which is just a horrific but amazing place. You know, it's this beautiful, you know, cultural place.


Bells experiences with Joe (48:16)

It's my home. It's everything, but it is also a treadmill. And you've got to get on it. And if you're not on it, you're not even in the picture. And that means the conversation switches to what do you do? How can I profit off that? And the most important thing in the conversation should always be, are you okay? When you say to your mates, hey, how are you? You go, yeah, I'm good. Glaze over it like that. Why is that not the most important thing that you ask someone? And it should be, it should always be. And that's why for guys, we forget that. So you have to go, oh shit, okay, I'll ask it again. You know, and that is, you know, I want people to be the hero to their friends that I know I wasn't to mine because I know I wasn't. And no matter how many people say to me, I did what he did because of, you know, that was his parogated from other types of stuff. Yeah, for sure. But the fact is that if someone had had this conversation with me, I probably would have brought that with him. And I would have, I know if I'd, if I'd got to the crux of it, if I'd, if I'd asked Joe those questions, if I had said to him, are you okay? If I'd done that twice, if I'd spoken to him, seen how he is, I don't think I'd be here. I don't think I'd be having this conversation. And I want other people to understand that it's up to us as friends. But you spoke to Joe about your struggles, but me. And did he ever, did he not ever reciprocate and say, well, I've also been, no. But that's, that's his, that's his thing.


Joe Marriott (49:49)

What was he like as a guy in terms of being? Like, was he, was he a guy that talked about deep topics? Like you've got your friends. Yeah. Yeah. Was he talked about? Listen, Joe is someone if ridiculous, like, I was still finding it now ridiculous, even talking about him, because it's like, if, if he had known that I was out here talking about people, about him, it's odd. It's odd to be able to be speaking about one of your friends and like, I don't know, it's odd. But he, he's someone that was the most outgoing, funny, creative guy. He was, he teetered on genius and idiot constantly. He would have the most ridiculous ideas. And at 99 of them, you know, at 100 of them, 99 would be ridiculous. And then one would be incredible. And, and that one incredible thing is the thing that we'd always champion and push forward. But he's someone that, yeah, like I say, like every single one of my friend group, I've never known a more smiley person. I've never known someone more happy, go lucky, more just happy to be there. And that's why I say if that can happen to him, best believe it can happen to anyone else. Did anybody ever find out what got him to that place or any, any, did he not leave him? No, that, that again, this is another thing is Hollywood believe, would make us believe that people leave notes. Yeah, they're not over 90%. Don't. And, and never know. And, and that's why it's just, I was like, it's a horrible, horrible, harsh thing. And it's, it's so final. That's the, that's the problem. It's so final. Also, another thing is, you know, girls can't be taken out of this conversation as well, because when I, I worked with the Nottinghamshire street triage team, who are an incredible team of people that are police and mental health experts that go out on calls together. So it'd be a mental health nurse with, with the police officer, and they will respond to a mental health crisis. And someone trying to take their own life, etc. And I said to them, I was like, oh, you know, I went there and like, in the mode of like, oh, yeah. So it must all be guys that you speak to. And they were like, no, actually it's around 90% of our calls are women having mental struggles or trying to take their own life. And then you look at the data and you're like, well, how does that make sense? But the problem is, is that us as men being men, we choose more final methods in terms of how to end that pain. And that's the unfortunate reality of it. You made that documentary. It was, I mean, it was everywhere. And everybody was talking about it. Yeah. Really, really far reaching. In fact, I know that the amount of people calling suicide and sort of mental health support lines shot up drastically. It's amazing. Yeah. It's like 700% or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So 120% But with that, you then carry this, I guess, this like social, you become the ambassador for something, right? I do not want to be the ambassador for it. But that's how life is now. And the only reason why I'll go out there and do it is because of Joe's family, generally, like, it's not easy, right? Talking about that. No, it's not like I'll give you examples, like, you know, I'll go to parties now.


Various Opinions On Happiness And Relationships

Becoming an Ambassador for his Friend Joe (53:14)

And you like the main thing that like lads, lads will come up to me and talk to me about is how they feel, which is nice in a way. But it's a lot. It's a lot. Yeah. I won't lie that it's a lot. It's a lot. Like, like, there are days where I don't want to talk about I have people like again, like, I'll be out for dinner or something like that. And someone to come up to himself. Oh my God, that documentary, blah, blah, blah. I wasn't thinking about my mate taking his own life, but now I'm thinking about it. Do you know what I mean? But that is life. Like that. That's always how it is. And the only way that I can kind of get around that is by, you know, you can tell them, by the way, that I talk about it, I'm still passionate about it. You know, because I've been scarred by it. I've got such trauma attached to suicide and mental health. And that's a trauma that I'll always have. You know, when you look for things, one of the questions I've asked other people, you know, that have been through what I've been through, I said to them, when does it get better? And their replies, it doesn't. You just learn to deal with it a little bit better. Do you know what I mean? Like you just learn a different technique to stop thinking about it. And, you know, that will be with me forever. I'll tell my kids about Joe, you know, I'll be bang on top of my kids is mental health, you know, what's going on with him. But again, I just think it's throughout all of this, you know, as you say, being apart and having these conversations now is crazy and weird. Do you still feel a bit of anger sometimes towards Joe for doing that? Yeah, every now and again. Every now and again. That's normal. You know, it's normal. Every now and again, I'll be lying. Every now and again, it's more so like me and my mates will have a story and we'll laugh. And then at the end of it, we'll go like, why mate, come on, like, because I know, like, I know that if he was a boy, he'd say to me, yeah, I can hear it clear as day. He'd say, I'm sorry, mate, many of us think. And that's what's so sad. And it's like, I know that whatever it is that it was going through, it ain't worth and it never is worth no matter what anyone's going through. It's this, this, this, it's not an option. Not an option. I'm mistaken, but I can't remember her name. So please forgive me if she ever hears this. Well, friends have ever hear this. There was a mum that recently got the wording changed around the phrase commit suicide. So now that that is not a phrase that should necessarily be said. So it's always, you would refer to it as take take your own life, because to commit suicide is actually in the legal act. And therefore a lot of young, a lot of parents were left with a child who, if they had written it down that they'd done that, that they would go down essentially as a criminal, a criminal, because you're committing an illegal act. So that phrasing is gone now, which is quite nice. It's a nice thing. But you know, suicide is still such a weird thing that people don't want to talk about, but yet is the biggest thing. You think how much, I think how many cancer adverse, think how many testicular cancer adverse you see on a daily basis. Now, put that together with how many male suicide adverse do you see? You know, it's the biggest killer for our age. How have you found being in a public spot? Like you talked a little bit about there about like people coming up to dinners and parties and stuff. Like when you're in the spot, like anyway, people come up to you and just say, Oh, I love your thing. But now they're coming up and say, how have you found all of that? In terms of the doc, the doc, or just generally, I mean, in general, mate, like, to be totally honest, I don't know any different, genuinely, because I like for me, it was a it's like in the same way that I could say to you, how is it in that bit, how is it in puberty? It's like you'd seen people above you go through that. So you kind of knew what to expect. Oh, okay. And you kind of dealt with it. Do you know what I mean? Whereas like, for me, because I was people coming up to me now saying, Oh, can I get a picture? And if I'm with a mate, I have to say to the network, can you hold the phone and, you know, take the picture? I was that person. Oh, right. Holding the phone half my life. Yeah. You know, so it just it's always been always been there. Okay. Any time I was a kid, any time I was a kid walking into a pub going to a football match, walking into a restaurant, anywhere, I clocked people looking at my dad or mom. Did you understand that they were like famous? Yeah, mate. Loved it. Loved it. Like, like, put it this way. My sister was always really shy. My sister was always really shy of it. And my dad always tells a story where he said it was a show and tell at school. And I must have been about six. My dad was in his standards. He'd just joined these standards. And his character named was Steve Owen in his standards, right? And, and it was a big thing that he was in there. And the fireman came to school like to show the fire truck and to, you know, show how this is our equipment and all that type of stuff. And they said, any questions? And my dad and my mom said, I put my hand up and said, you may think that's cool, but my dad's Steve Owen. So I've always, I've always been insanely proud of my parents, you know, like, and, and, you know, I credit them for, you know, my dad has always been very patient with everyone. And in terms of, like, people wanting pictures or stuff like that. He always does it. Yeah, he always does it. But he taught me something else, which, you know, we had a little bit of a chat about this before, but he's never let me take pictures with people ever. And I don't do that. And I always get I get told off about it because people are like, Oh, if you're hanging out with this person, you just take a picture.


Why I don't just take a picture for Insta (59:07)

Oh, so if you, yeah, so if you want to take a photo with like Justin Bieber, then he's not going to do it. Yeah, even footballers. Right. Like when I was a kid, well, I want it was like, you know, take picture for a met footballer. I want to take a picture. He was like, not enjoy that moment with you and that person. The picture is nothing. You know, it's gratification for someone else to see it. He goes that you should enjoy that moment, live it with your eyes and, and, and speak to them. And if you really want to, you know, make a moment in that person's life, go up to them and say, you know, you know what? I really, really like your work. I really appreciate what you've done. I really like this. That goes so much further than, you know, if someone came up to me and said, I just want to let you know that I really like what you did. That means so much more than anyone's running up to you and going, go picture, take a picture, run off. Yeah. Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, I mean, you must go through the same thing. Yeah. You know, if someone came up to and said, mate, I really love your podcast. I really love, you know, everything you've done, the business, the businesses that you've created, means so much more. Yeah. Someone's pleased about that. So, yeah. So, so fame in terms of, for me, has always kind of been, there's pros and cons to, to our jobs now. The fame is a con, is a, is a bad part of it. The good part is that we get to do fun stuff. Interesting. You get, you, the good part is you get to speak to interesting people. Yeah. So, hit the con is that when you're out for dinner, someone may have watched that conversation and want to interrupt you. Yeah. And talk to you about it. Yeah. Yeah. I went to, I was, I was, went to the United Way game the other day and I was, I was getting certain places. So, like, whenever there's a younger demographic, Dragons is going to change that. I was talking to my team this week. Yeah. Like BBC ones are slightly more parenty audience. Oh, really changed that. You'll see that. So, when I'm in my, when I'm at Old Trafford in the like, gallery area, which is all, predominantly a lot of the older people. Yeah. No one bothers me. If I got into this, if I go to an away day, honestly, last week, someone had their arm around me, the whole game, I love your, show me on his phone. I love your, I love your, I'm trying to, I think he's going to watch the game. Yeah. Come on. He's like, and he's, and you know, anything. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wearing a fucking hoodie and like, you know, but yeah, but that's like, COVID was, it was a good thing. And that's it. Yeah. It was a really good thing. No, it's actually a conversation I started having. And you've, you've experienced this much more than I have, which is just, I, will there become a point where I become more of an introvert and don't want to go to places because of the amount of people that are like, it's exhausting, right? And I don't want to be, I'll never be an asshole. I know that for sure. I'll never say it's tiring, right? It's tiring. It's for sure. But naturally, that will happen because your life changes. Like you're going to be on a TV show that is watched by millions of people. Like this is, that's, you know, it's what my dad, what my dad always says, you know, and that's, you know, that's why he always says to me, you can't, you know, people that get angry at fans or whatever and like, you know, or rude to people, you can't put your head above the parapet and not expect to get hit. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, how can you do that? Like you're choosing to go on a show that is watched by millions of people. Yeah. So therefore, if you go out, you need to be more careful. You need to, you know, like, you know, understand that that people are going to want certain things. And that's fine. But that's just, that's just the world.


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Jeremy's theory on famous and successful people's happiness (01:03:24)

You've met a lot of very famous supers megastars and you've partnered with a lot of them and been very close to a lot of them. I've been hearing some of the stories about Justin Bieber. When you look at some of these people that have been wildly successful, what have you noticed about their happiness and the ones that are happy, the ones that you think, "Oh god, I'm concerned for this one." What's your general observation? Are these really happy people, honestly? I think it's all about the values. It's all about what are they doing it for. The family life. What I always find so interesting is I think one of the reasons why I'm able to again do the job that I do and speak to those people who are on such high pedestals is because you've got to remember that I've grown up with a godfather who was and still to this day, one of the most famous singers ever in George Michael. Growing up with George, I saw very quickly that the more famous you get, it does not become more fun. It doesn't. You don't know who's your friends, you don't know those types of things. I think that that can lead people to be into a bit of a troubled situation. You get approached by a good core friend group, like a big core friend group, that can lead to everyone around you being yes men that just want to be on the payroll, that will do something because they think that it will help in their career and those types of things. I'm uber fortunate. I've got a really nice friend group and the artist that I know speaking from a music background, the artist that I know that have those incredible friend groups are just amazing people. Ed Sheeran? Yeah, Ed's values are so correct. And his parents are lovely people as well in terms of the pleasure of having dinner with his dad and stuff like that. They're just people that understand that this is just fun, the creativeness is just the fun. All the fame and those types of things are just the side note. Ed does everything he does now, I'm sure, because he's so family orientated. And that's so important. He's married to Cherry, who's his childhood sweetheart. You know, it's the same. I'll give you another example. It's like, no, Horan's what I'm a good mate. Niles friend group is all his friend group from young school, young, and they will kill him, like in like conversations or like, do you know what I mean? His cousins will rip into shreds and all those types of things and all it does is just ground him constantly. And it's that grounding nature that if you don't have that within this world or that world, you're gonna struggle. Justin, for instance, was someone that was taking it like nine. He didn't have a chance to build a proper friend group. Didn't even have a chance. And so you worry for people like that, because that's why he's now found faith and that's his thing. And that is his grounding moment in his life. And his wife, of course, she's out. Exactly. She seems to be a good actor. That's what I mean. So for him, he has those things. For me, it is this core group of mates. And you must meet a couple that you're a bit concerned about in terms of... Always. Because I've met a couple of famous people and I thought, "Fuckin' I'll learn not happy." No. I understand. Could you feel it when you meet them with their energy and they... All the time, instantly. There's a few people that I don't even know that well, and I've ended up having to reach out to because I feel like... I probably should. And it's sad. It's really sad. Like sometimes it can be a sad existence. Money can make you feel amazing 100%. It can buy happiness. But that happiness can run out. Like that's the thing. As quickly as your bank balance can run out, that happiness can run out. And people struggle. People are really, really struggling. And this is again, this is another thing what I learned with making doc about suicide and talking about mental health. The first thing I saw when people... Like press release came out saying that I was doing a documentary about suicide. Twitter was like, "What does a celebrity kid know about struggling and mental health and these types of things?" But the thing is, is that it's all... Those struggles that you see artists going through, or addiction problems, or those types of things, it's only relevant to what their life is. The problem that someone in a lower-class system has in their head will be just as high as someone in an upper-class system. Because it's just relevant to the circumstance. It's big in their head. And that's what people have to understand is that no matter what the problem is, people say, "Oh, it's an upper-class problem," or whatever. They first-world problem, that's what people say. It's not to be looked at. It's just something that that's what's affecting you. And you don't wear a uniform for depression. There isn't a job title for depression.


Why Roman's been single for a while (01:08:46)

One of the things you said at the start of this conversation was about one of the expectations that you do feel a bit of pressure to me is that when in... You're sort of romantic life, right? Yeah. I've struggled with that for a long time. I'm going to be honest. Yeah. Struggled with their girlfriends dating, all that stuff, Tinder, all of the way that people date in the modern age, and just finding good people and really putting the effort in, because I can't be bothered with the small talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So tell me about that. You a single man right now? I'm single right now. Yes. Yeah. I used to be honest. It's like... My one thing that I struggle with, and I've had girlfriends that... You know, in the past, I've been in absolute arse all night, of course. Do you know what I mean? And I've let work get in the way. I've let that lifestyle kind of get in the way. But the one thing that I know is that I want that relationship. I see my mum and dad have I want that more than anything. And I just... I think the thing that I panic about more is... It's not a thing, but it's like, for me, I think it's an insecurity that a lot of men have that never talk about as well, which is, "Oh, will I be able to have kids when I'm older?" People never talk about that. But I never hear anyone make talk about that, but I'm always like, "Oh, that's my biggest fear." Someone says, "Well, it's your biggest fear." That. Because I think that my sole purpose on this life is just to make other people that are nice. That's how I feel. So, you know, for me, it's I'm such a family person. I feel like at this point in time, I worry that if I got into something, would I be able to give that person what they deserve in terms of being a partner? Because I am work focused and I do like, and I'm enjoying my life right now. I'm enjoying doing what I'm doing, and I don't want to like defer from that. Have you struggled when you're in a relationship? And if so, what is the... What is the... In your sort of self-aware opinion, what is the reason why you struggle in relationships? I struggled in relationships in the past, and I still will struggle now going forward because I always have this massive fear that there is resentment on my future partners part. Do you know what I mean? I never... I couldn't be with someone that doesn't really work or do those things because I'd be so scared that they'd look at me and think, "Oh, well, it's fine for him because he can get this or afford this or do this and this and this." Do you know what I mean? I always try my best to make sure that I'm with someone that I can raise up as much as people on the outside raise me up. Because that's a horrible thing that I see so much. And look, I go through it even now. People come up to me and they go, "Oh my God, your dad is such an amazing person. Blah, blah, do you ever think about you with your dad and with your dad and all this stuff?"


Going Forward, I Want My Partner To Have A Voice (01:11:28)

And I'm like, "My mum is wicked." Do you know what I mean? And that, I think that worry that I always had with my mum, and I always felt like I had to stand up for my mum and be like, "Hang on, she played at Live Aid as well." Do you know what I mean? She had number one record as well. I always feel like I worry that about that in a partner. And I want to always make sure that a partner knows that. No matter how many people are coming up to me and saying, "Oh, you know, you're doing really well, you're doing really well." I'll always be there and say, "Yeah, but she's doing this." That's so interesting. Do you know what I mean? Do you know what I don't? Because I've not been through that. Yeah, but that's the thing that I think it's so important. I see so many asshole people, and I've seen it my whole life, right? The celebrities, they introduce themselves to you or you speak to them, and their partner just stands there, and they don't even introduce them to you. And you must have seen that growing up because that feels like it's very front of mind for you. Yeah, for sure. People just don't want to talk to my dad. But it's like, you know, it's a partnership. My dad's always thought, "Well, obviously my mom now, I don't know." Fine. But like, I don't want that. I don't want my partner to feel like everyone just wants to talk to Roman. I don't want that. Like, I really don't. And I have people and offer my partner to think what I do isn't as good as what he does, what doesn't earn as much money as what he does, or doesn't get as much gratification as he does. Does that mean that you go for? No, it means that I have, I love women that have their life going on or like a busy or those types of things. That attracts me more than anything. You look at the girls who have dated in the past, they're girls doing the wrong thing and they're fucking good at it. And it's one of the reasons, to be totally honest with you, it's one of the reasons why I don't really say English girls. Ever. I love someone not knowing what I do for a living. I love someone not caring at all. If I was to ask one of your two last exes, if I said, why did your relationship with Roman and what you reckon that's a two folks on work, two folks on what he's doing. I'd say that. That's interesting. I was that guy for a long time, maybe still am. Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with being that. And that's that's what I have to learn. There's nothing wrong with being that because if you are happy in your life, if you are, you know, getting that fulfillment, which I feel like I am, then that's okay. There's a time for everything. Yeah, I see it. For me, it was like a chapter. So there was a phase in my life where I was very, very, very selfish. But I always wanted romantic connection in a relationship. I started to actually learn the importance of it studying some stuff and seeing that men that had a romantic partner for their lives were lived like several years longer, got ill, way less. And I was thinking, okay, maybe having a relationship is equally important as just making millions of pounds. And then I started to feel, I don't know, you get older, you've had a lot of sex with a lot of people that you just can't remember. And you thought, well, that wasn't it. That didn't feel the day after. So again, okay, this is more substantive to have a meaningful relationship. And then I started to realize that, okay, this is only ever going to work if I compromise a little bit sometimes. And also find someone worth compromising for. Yeah, but a relationship is all about compromise. Yeah, that's it. It's always about compromising. And it's about finding someone that is your best friend, not about, you know, someone that you just find really fit. Are you compromising? Do you think? At the minute, I'm not because I feel like at this moment in time, and I'll be totally honest with you. After I lost Joe, after Joe, I kind of got in this mindset where I was like, you know what, I just need to live my life. I just need to do what I want to do. And not feel like if I didn't personally, I didn't want to get into a relationship because I felt like some of my relationships or some of the moments that I've been with people, I feel like I wasted my time. And I can't not feel like that. So many people, so many girls feel like that about guys that they've been able to listen to this podcast. And I felt like that too. And I felt like, you know what, why was I trying to compromise when I need to enjoy myself a little bit, you know, and find that kind of happiness. And I firmly believe that that time will come. I'm a definitely a relationship person, 100%. But I believe that time will come. But right now, I just know that it's more so in my head, it's like, I know that I could get into seeing someone or whatever, but I just know that it'll reach a point where I can't give them what they deserve. And a girl doesn't deserve to have someone that might be too tired that day to even text them. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, and I'm someone that likes my own space. So it's hard. So looking forward at the future, then one of the things you said earlier was that you are the type of guy that like knocks on the door of your boss's office and says, listen, I want that show.


Concluding Thoughts

Will the Query-Jar Trick EVER Stop? (01:16:11)

This is what I want. So tell me what it is that you want looking forward professionally in your future. My, my, as to where I am right now, I'm very happy where I am right now. Like very happy. Therefore, I'm not urging myself to knock on any doors genuinely. There are things that I feel passionate about, which I really feel like I'm going to make this, and I want to make this going back to, you know, schools and mental health, which I think is a really important thing. And I have a platform and to be able to do it. So I will do that. I think the common question that I always get asked is, oh, yeah. So what's the next step TV? And it's like, no, it's I'm 28 years old. And I've got, in my opinion, the best job in the UK. I get to wake up every day and feel like I'm back at school, waking people up every day. That time will come that pressure that I'll put on myself to go and find the next thing or to think about where I want to move next will come later on. Right now, I'm in a genuine position where I love what I do. I get up at Celia clock, but second, I'm there. I'm happy and enjoying it. And I don't feel like, you know, we spoke about this earlier on as a, as a presenter, like if I came out of radio tomorrow, I'd be worried. I'd be thinking, Oh, shit, have I been on TV enough this month? Have I have I tweeted enough? Have I done Instagram enough? Like, I love the fact that my job now, I don't have to think about that. I don't have to post on Instagram if I don't want to, because I've just spoken to 7 million people that week. Do you know what I mean? And and been with them through a journey every single day. The pandemic was an amazing thing. Like in terms of, I remember I had two weeks, two weeks holiday in April 2020, and I was going to take it. And my dad called me and was like, you can't. I was like, what do you mean? You can't go on holiday. He was like, this is, this is like the most important time that you will ever have to, to, to, you know, be with people and go through this with them. You can't just walk away. They're relying on you to do that. This is your responsibility to do it. You had to go quite angry at me because it was just like, no, it's your responsibility to do that, to provide some form of normality for those people. And, and so I did. And, you know, throughout the pandemic, it was just we created these relationships with people that are working. You realize how much radio means and you create friendships with listeners and with people up and down the country that you meet. And that to be able to go in every dance, that's my job is an amazing thing.


How are you doing? (01:19:04)

And I really, truly genuinely love it. In the spirit of one of the things you said to me during this conversation, now that we've been talking for a little while, I feel like I have to ask you. Yeah. How are you doing? I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right. They're about this. They're about this where, you know, you, you kind of, you kind of think, you know, did they really want to be in talking about suicide? Do I really want to be going over a trauma that's in my head? You know, do I want to sack in the whole job and just I've got enough money now to live a nice, nice little life somewhere quiet and just go and do that. But I think those are all kind of moments in my life that, you know, moving forward and like you said, like, I think there's so much more life for me to learn. I think that I am happy. If I think about it, I am happy. I'm I'm proud of the things that I've achieved. You know, little things, little things that I've achieved. You know, I know people ask me, what am I going to do in five years? I'd rather say to them, well, this is what I did five years ago. The last five years look pretty decent. So I'm comfortable in my, you know, ability moving forward. You know, I think that I'm definitely tired, which is one thing always tired. What do you mean by that? Always like tired in a physical fatigue way, which getting up at 430 will do to you. But no, I'm okay. As I say, there's there's updates and there's down days, but those down days, I'm pleased as well that I've got a good core friend group around me. I'm glad that I've got my parents around me. I've got that I've gone out there and I've taught myself the tools that I need to go and fight my Tyson in there and be able to go up against him. And that's why I feel passionate to be able to go and do that for kids now. We have a closing tradition. Oh, yeah. Each guest that comes on the podcast writes a question for the next guest inside of the diary of a CEO.


Closing Traditions (01:21:02)

So, um, okay, how could you be more authentically you? By being off my phone. I'd say, and I mean that just because when I did I'm a celebrity, get me out of her. That was the happiest I've ever been. Easily. In there, I was wrong, which is what my friends name is. That was me. Like, this here is someone who has the work has to do all these steps to things and that and has all these other sides. But there I didn't have any phone, no expectation, no nothing. I completely forgot my cameras are on you, all those types of situations. So, for sure, the more I can stop working and enjoy moments without work, that's how I could be more authentically me. Interesting. Thank you so much. Honestly, Roman, you know, I, the amount of the amount of value that your openness to do what you're doing, and I see it as you are like doing a service for society. And especially because of the horrific nature of the statistics around mental health and suicide, I can't tell you even for me what this conversation has done in terms of opening my eyes.


Final Message

Romes message (01:22:21)

Yeah. And like, I know, like, so I guess what I want to do is I just wanted to thank you because I also, I don't envy, and I'm going to be honest, I don't envy the position of people coming up to me all the time and talking about a topic like that. Yeah, I find it hard, just even now people talking to me about, Oh, here's my business idea. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes I open my DMs and I'm having a good day working out. And then I'll see a message, which is very, which is ever similar vein, which is very, very tragic. And it will just push me off a little bit. Yeah. So for you to choose knowingly to put yourself in the position of being a involuntary advocate, like the ambassador of this, this topic is such a self. Do you find it hard saying suicide? You do. There's a little part of you that's not just up there. Yeah. It's so weird. Yeah. It's not a swear word. When I first did the documentary, when I first did the documentary, sorry, cut your phone. No, please, please continue after. No, no. Tell me how great I am. Yeah. But when I first started making the documentary, I felt like it isn't your, you know, you're going to talk about today. We're going to talk about it's weird, but it's a normal word. It's life. Again, it's the biggest killer in men our age, like suicide is a very normal word. It makes you feel uncomfortable, doesn't it? Yes. And that's what that's to stop. But I just could see in your eye there. Yeah. I was thinking about these DMs and I was thinking, I've been ambassadors of suicide. Yeah. Suicide sounds, you know what suicide it sounds like? It's a really emotional word. Yeah. So with emotional words, we tend to, you know, use them sparingly. Yeah. I was just intrigued because it's something that I had. Let me finish off just to make a word. I genuinely mean that from the bottom of my heart. Like, what you're doing, as I said, I don't envy it's not easy. But the tremendous, I think, service it's doing to society at a time when we need it the most and we need people that are willing to to have those conversations and be honest, because a lot of men are still caged, is it's like impossible to quantify? I don't think you'll ever get to see the good you do. But I just want you to know from my perspective and just on me personally from seeing that documentary that I can't think of many greater goods that someone could do for men in this day and age. So thank you. As a man, but as just a citizen of society as well. Thank you. Well, very much. I appreciate that. And thank you for having me on your podcast. Thank you so much for really appreciate it.


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