Amelia Boone Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast) | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Amelia Boone Interview (Full Episode) | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)".


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Intro (00:00)

At this altitude I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? No, what is the appropriate time? What if I did the opposite? I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over a metal entoskeleton. The Tim Ferriss Show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront, and this is a very unique sponsor. Wealthfront is a massively disruptive, in a good way, set it and forget it investing service, led by technologists from places like Apple and world famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years, and they now have more than two and a half billion dollars under management. In fact, some of my very good friends, investors in Silicon Valley, have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. So the question is why? Why is it so popular? Why is it unique? Because you can get services previously reserved for the ultra wealthy, but only pay pennies on the dollar for them. And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, etc. And I'll come back to that in a second. I suggest you check out Take the risk assessment quiz, which only takes two to five minutes, and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they put you in. And if you just want to take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or, as I would, you can set it and forget it. And here's why. The value of Wealthfront is in the automation of habits and strategies that investors should be using on a regular basis, but normally aren't. Great investing is a marathon, not a sprint, and little things that you may or may not be familiar with, like automatic tax loss harvesting, rebalancing your portfolio across more than ten asset classes, and dividend reinvestment add up to very large amounts of money over longer periods of time. Wealthfront, as I mentioned, since it's using software instead of retail locations, etc., can offer all of this at low costs that were previously completely impossible. Right off the bat, you never pay commissions or account fees. For everything, they charge 0.25% per year on assets above the first $15,000, which is managed for free if you use my link, That is less than $5 a month to invest a $30,000 account, for instance. Now, normally when I have a sponsor on this show, it's because I use them and recommend them. In this case, it's a little different. I don't use Wealthfront yet because I'm not allowed to. Here's the deal. They wanted to sponsor this podcast, but because of SEC regulations, companies that invest your money are not allowed to use client testimonials. So I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast. But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss Show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account. But just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at It's fast, it's free. There's no downside that I can think of. Now, I do have to read a mandatory disclaimer. Wealthfront Inc. is an SEC registered investment advisor. Investing in securities involves risks and there is the possibility of losing money. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Please visit to read their full disclosure. So check it out, guys. This is one of the hottest, most innovative companies coming out of Silicon Valley and they're killing it. They've become massively popular. Just take a look, see what portfolio they would create for you, and you can use that information however you want. This episode is brought to you by 99designs. 99designs is a great partner for creating and growing your business. It's a one-stop shop for all of your graphic design needs, whether that's a logo, website, business card, or anything else. I use 99designs to get book cover prototypes for the 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a #1 New York Times bestseller. I also use them for banner ads, illustrations, and other things. With 99designs, designers around the world compete to create the best design for you. You give feedback and then pick your favorite. You end up happy or you get your money back. It's very simple. You can check out a few of my own designs and those of yours, meaning Tim Ferriss Show listeners, at And right now, my listeners, you guys, will get a free $99 upgrade on your first design. That's Check it out. Millea Boon has been called the Michael Jordan of optical course racing.

Discussion About Obstacle Course Racing And Competitions

What is obstacle course racing? (04:28)

Since the sport's inception, she's amassed, and she's laughing, more than 30 victories and 50 podiums. Her major victories include the Spartan Race World Championship in 2003, Spartan Race Series Point Champion in 2013 and 2015, and she's the only three-time winner of the world's toughest runner in 2012, '14, and '15. She's also a three-time finisher of the Death Race and dabbles in ultra running in all of her spare time, which I'm sure is massive, and has a flourishing and high-velocity career to boot. Millea, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I appreciate you taking the time. And I thought we could start with a photo. So I was doing research for this and went to your website, which is, and can you describe the photo that takes up most of the real estate on that page? Well, so the website needs a bit of updating. I'm not a great website person, so if anybody wants to volunteer, be my guest. But it's a picture of me. I'm in the middle of barbed wire, and I'm crawling on my hands and knees, and I'm just kind of looking around, semi-perplexed. And to me, that just kind of encapsulates everything that I do. I'm bleeding from my knees, my elbows, and just crawling through the mud, having a good time. It's just a microcosm of the face of obstacle course racing. Exactly. It's not pretty.

The World's Toughest Mudder (06:04)

And we met through Scott Keneally, who is putting together, maybe finished by the time people see this and available, Rise of the Suffer Fests. So Suffer Fests, you mentioned the blood, you mentioned the dirt, the barbed wire. Maybe we can explain to people who are unfamiliar what obstacle course racing is with the example of the world's toughest mudder. Can you describe what on earth that is? Well, so that's kind of like the extreme of obstacle course racing. Right. But in general, I mean, I think people have been familiar with Spartan races, with tough mudders. You see people jumping over fire and crawling under barbed wire, and it's just, you know, you're running along and you have a wall to climb, and you're jumping through mud, and you're using everything that you have. It's just completely physical experience. So I got involved back in 2011 when I ran a Tough Mudder with friends and then signed up for, there was this race that was announced called World's Toughest Mudder, and they're like, "You for 24 hours are going to run as many laps of a course, a Tough Mudder course, as you can. And it's going to be in December in New Jersey." Sounds balmy. It was balmy. I was like, "Hmm, man, I can't think of anywhere I'd rather go than New Jersey in December." And so a bunch of us signed, I think a thousand people signed up for this. And nobody had any idea what they were getting into. We'd all run a Tough Mudder or run a Spartan race, but nobody had ever really done it for 24 hours. So we went out that day and people were trying to figure out, like, how do you stay warm for 24 hours when you're in and out of water? And it's December and it's New Jersey. So we decided that we would wear wetsuits or that wetsuits would be the way to stay warm. And other people, former triathletes, were like, "Oh, there's no way you can run for 24 hours in a wetsuit. You'll die." Or, you know, like, "Your thermoregulation will be all off," or whatever. But we did. And like halfway through... So we all go out and it's like 30 degrees outside New Jersey. After the first lap, there were about a thousand people that would start. I'd say maybe 850 people dropped out. After the first lap. Just done. First lap. Like, done. And this is what? Like an hour, like a few hours into it? Probably an hour and a half. And I remember going back in my tent and like just shivering uncontrollably being like, "What am I doing? Like, what is going on here?" You know? You like would walk past like the med tents and there were just people in there like laying on cots. They were using like saline bags to like warm saline to put under people's arms, like armpits to keep them warm. And so a few of us decided that we were going to keep going. And I think by, you know, the night descended on us. It was like 2 a.m. We were like walking through the water, wading through water and like there was ice forming. We're like, you know, breaking holes in the ice. And I'm sitting here being like, "What am I doing? Like, what am I doing?" But at the same time, I was having so much fun. And out of a thousand people that started that race, 12 finished. And I was one of two women. And so that was the start of it all. And I, for some unknown reason, I remember when I finished that race 24 hours later, I was like, "Never again. Never again." And then like two weeks later, I'm like, "Sign me up. What's next? Sign me up."

Born to Compete (10:00)

And the drive to do this type of thing, there's so many different approaches I could take to try to dissect this. But are your parents very surprised, not surprised at all or somewhere in between? I would say somewhere in between because so I've always been like the high achiever, type A, you know. I want to be at the top of my class. I want to be graduating summa cum laude and going to law school and everything like that. I read that one of your law school classmates said that you would find a way to be competitive or to win in anything if it were folding laundry or otherwise. Oh, yeah. I was like in law school, the extent of my exercise was getting on the elliptical like everybody else. And I would like find a way to compete next on the person like on the elliptical next to me. And those were the days. But so I think the drive and the determination like that doesn't phase, you know, like my parents like par for the course. But in terms of like how it manifested itself, because I've always been kind of like a creature routine and like I don't like surprises and I want to be able to like plan everything and know everything. And with obstacle course racing, it's so unknown when you go out there, like for the most part, when it first started, like they won't even show you want to see a course map. So you want to know what was out there. And so I think that part of they're kind of like, wow. Or like when I would sign up for the death race and they would be like 72 hours in the woods and you don't know what you're going to be doing, but have at it. And so that was very kind of like a typical personality for me. Where did you grow up? I grew up in Portland, Oregon. In Portland. And what did your parents do growing up? So my dad was an insurance like adjuster and my mom was an environmental consultant. Where did the competitive edge come from? I'm not, it's funny, it's like they have no idea. And like I have, I think it's got to be innate to be totally honest, because my parents were always like, you can get C's, that's fine. Or you can, you can play this sport or you don't have to play this sport or as long as you're happy, you just do what makes you happy. And so there was- Sounds more Portland. Yeah, right. Never. It was never like if you think of like sage parents, I was like the opposite of that. So they were always telling me to like calm down and take a break. But instead I just- That worked well. Yeah, right. Do you have siblings? I do. I have an older sister. Older sister. Yeah. Is she also competitively driven like yourself? No, I mean we're pretty much like in terms of personalities, like opposites. Polar opposites. Polar opposites. She's extremely successful, but she came out about it from a very like, you know, way more laid back and, you know, like low key approach.

Training, competitions, and becoming a lawyer. (13:02)

What did you want to be when you were a kid? What did you want to be when you grew up? I wanted to be a lawyer when I grew up. Oh, and you nailed it. I nailed it. I was one of those people that I was like, if I set my mind to something, then I'm going to do it. So I would, for lunch every day when I was like at home during the summer, my mom and I would always watch Perry Mason. And I was like, man, Perry Mason, like being an attorney, he gets the bad guy to confess every single episode. That's got to be cool. Perry Mason's great. I remember Perry Mason. So then I went to law school and I realized that's not actually what happens. And yeah. So you were more Perry Mason than a Matlock person? Yes. Yes. I was a Perry Mason person. So you decide you want to be a lawyer. And did that change that waiver or did that stick with you all the way up until the point that you became a lawyer? I think it pretty much, you know, I kind of thought of different things in college. I really got, I really fell in love with anthropology and primates. And so like, you know, I really love studying. Yeah, monkeys. And I thought for a part of me, I'm like, maybe I should go to Madagascar and hang out with the lemurs or I could go get a law degree. So I double majored in anthropology and political science and then decided to take the safe route and go with the law degree. And that was you, Washington? Washington University. Washington University. That's right. And what did you do athletically in high school or college? So growing up, I was kind of like a, I would say like a jack of all trades athlete in that I played, I was always on like a club team, like ASA softball or club soccer, you know, traveling basketball. And so I'd play year round and I was always good. I was on like the competitive, the highest level teams. I was never like a super standout all star in any one single sport. So, you know, I played year round and I would show back and forth from practice to practice throughout middle school and high school. But I started like paring that down. And I actually, as high school progressed, I got more and more into musical theater and show choir and singing. And I kind of gave up sports and athletics. So in college, I actually sang in an a cappella group, but I no sports, no sports in college, no sports. Recreationally, were you a runner? I would go out and run to like stay in shape, but running in St. Louis kind of sucked. So, I mean, I just like it was either like hot and muggy or like freezing cold. So, yeah, I didn't really didn't really do anything. Let's say I'm going to jump around a little bit like memento. But if we were to look at, say, the world's toughest runner, what do your routines look like? You said you're a creature of habit, as am I. The hours before the competition, let's just say like the day of. What are your routines? So I always get up like super early before. Well, I get up super early in general every morning. What's super early? So my alarm typically goes off like right around 4 a.m. That's why you didn't flinch when we were talking about Jaco Willink, the SEAL commander. I'm like, "And he wakes up at 4." Zero response. I'm like, "Uh-oh, another one. Here we are." Yeah, 4 a.m. And so actually on race days, it's almost like I sleep in a little bit. When do the races start typically? They generally will start. World's toughest runner is a little bit different. That one starts at 2 in the afternoon now. But just a regular obstacle race will generally be like 7.30 is the starting time. I got it. So that starts at 2 p.m. So let's use that example. You wake up at 4. Oh, yeah. Then I drive myself crazy for the next however many hours twiddling my thumbs. What other type of body prep or mental prep do you do? Yeah, I generally use the distraction technique. So I try to not think about really – because I can sit there and make myself miserable over and over like picturing the race or whatever.

Preparing for races. (17:31)

But I find it helpful actually – I actually do a lot of work in the mornings before races. So I'll catch up on emails. I'll do things from like my attorney life. And then in terms of like body prep, I do a lot of like foam rolling, mobility, things like that. The older I get, the more I realize like I can't just like jump out of bed in the morning and like be spry as a chicken. You're 32. Is that right? 32. 32, yeah. 32. I would imagine you still have a couple of good years left in you. Yes. Sometimes it feels a lot worse though. Let me tell you. The mobility work that you do, what does that actually look like in detail? So I generally carry like an arsenal of every single – like from a golf ball, a lacrosse ball, a softball, a foam roller. And so I'm really focused on loosening up hips, loosening up hamstrings. And every single different little torture device has – the golf ball is for the foot. And the lacrosse ball works well on the glutes. The softball is great for the hamstrings. So I'm just getting the muscles kind of warmed up and loosened and prepped. And I do – I actually – from a lot of various nagging injuries that I've always had, I have like little physical therapy routines that I always do too, like to get your glutes activated and things like that. What type of movements do you do for glute activation? There's this fantastic exercise called Jane Fonda's that if anybody has ever been in… Are these for like glute-mean or are these…? Oh, yeah, yeah. Glute-mean where you're sitting there and you're like, "Man, I should really have leg warmers on right now." So you're talking about – is this like the bent leg sort of the reverse thigh master? Pretty much, yeah. It's the reverse thigh master. On your side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like variation, like doing fire hydrants like that too, like a dog lifting his legs. They're all super sexy things that people like. Like if you do them in a gym, people are like, "Oh, God, there's that girl." Well, I tell you, I think that you probably get more attention doing fire hydrants than I do, at least unless I'm in a gym in the Castro, which it might be a similar experience.

Pre-Race Stamina vs Post-Race Recovery (19:54)

And do you use any other modalities for prep? Do you use any stim? Do you use anything like that pre-race or is that set aside for other purposes? Pre-race, not so much, no. That's more like recovery, like recovery compression boots and stim. Now, are compression boots the compression socks or are these actual boots? The boots that inflate, the air pressure chambers that kind of like flush out, supposedly flush out lactic acid. And that's post-race? That would be post-race, yeah. So let's talk about post-race then. So in terms of facilitating recovery, so you finished the race. Yeah. And is it true that you have not slept for days on end after races or is that an exaggeration? No, it is true. So any long race that I've done, like World's House Mudder is a 24-hour race. I've done other races that are longer, 48 that are 60 hours. And I feel like I can't sleep afterwards and you feel like you should be able to. You're like, "Wow, I was just up for three days straight running around in the woods, but my mind, your body is so physically exhausted, but my mind is still on overdrive that I just can't." So I mean, for instance, this year after World's House Mudder, there was a group of us staying at a house, sat around, we're drinking beers, watching football game, and I was like, "Man, I should really be getting drunk right now," or something like that because I'm drinking, I've been running around in a wetsuit all night long. I'm like, "I don't feel anything. I don't feel any effects of the booze or anything like that." I was like, "It just must be this adrenaline still pumping through me." Did other people have the same similar experience or is that unique to you? I think no because everyone else just kind of passed out and went to bed. So I was like, "Hey, guys. Let's say, 'Okay, everyone's asleep right now. Cool.'" When you cross the finish line as such, you're done. What type of recovery starts?

Post-Race Recovery Process (22:09)

What are the actions that you take in the hours following the race? I think one of the most important things that people should do that they don't is you have to stay moving. People want to finish a race and especially a long one and just lay on a couch or go to sleep. That is the worst thing you can do because you're going to wake up and not be able to move anything. So I generally try and stay walking. I try and stay active. I will hop again on a foam roller or something like that and try. You don't want to be too aggressive afterwards. You're not going to hop on a softball and roll out your glutes because that's going to hurt really bad. But then just try and stay active. That is in the next day too, gentle movement and things like that.

Thoughts on Ice Baths (22:58)

Are you a proponent of ice baths or anything like that or not? I'm not a scientist. Whatever. All I know is what works for me. People have different opinions. If I can get into an ice bath, I will, but it needs to be immediately. There have been races where there's a lake right next to me and I'm like, "If it's cold enough, then I'll just go jump in the lake and use that as an ice bath." But if you're waiting four or five hours, I don't really think it's going to end up helping you in the end.

Most Notable Win (23:32)

I want you to correct me if I'm wrong. In 2012, the world's toughest mudder, how did you place? I won for females, but I was second overall in 2012. Second place overall. How did that feel? It was a really interesting race. How many competitors? There were about 1,200 people, I believe, generally every year. There were about 1,200 people. They moved just to November, so it was supposedly a tiny bit warmer, but actually it wasn't. It was actually colder in 2012 than it was in 2011. I guess I didn't realize I knew I was winning for women. At this point, we were about 24 hours or getting close to the end and I was about 80 some odd miles in. As on the last lap, they're like, "Okay, well, you've won for women, but the guy that's winning is like nine minutes ahead of you." So we're on this last lap. We'll end up with 90 miles. There are all these people from Tough Mudder headquarters and all these men are just yelling at me, willing me to go on because all they want me to do is to win overall. You're so tired at that point and so kind of delirious that I guess I didn't even realize the import of that situation and how massive that would have been. Because I was just like, "Leave me alone. I'm tired." I hear you. I'm freezing. I'm covered in 10 millimeters of neoprene. I'm trying to move faster. My body won't let me. I ended up finishing about nine minutes behind the male overall winner. It didn't really hit me until a day or two later where I was like, "Oh, I was that close. Oh, okay." So did you feel pride about finishing second overall or were you more disappointed that you didn't finish first overall? No, no, no. I completely felt pride. It's one of these things now that when I race, I kind of look at the standing. It's cool to win as a female and be like, "Oh, I'm the female winner," but I more look of like I have a consistent goal of trying to place top 10 overall. I don't care sex, gender. I just want to compete to the best overall. And what the next female finisher, what place was she? She actually, in 2012, she was third. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. Wow. Good for her. What was her name? Deanna Blake. She's amazing. She's absolutely amazing. She's 46 years old from Australia. Forty-six. Yeah. Just crushes it up there. What a beast. Yeah. Okay. All my excuses just went up my window. I know, right? Right? And she's like the nicest woman in the entire world too.

Lindsay's Strategy vs Mature Competitors (26:41)

How does her strategy for training or in the race itself differ from a younger competitor? I would say I think probably, I think as you get older, you realize you don't go out as fast. It's kind of like as you age, you're never going to out sprint a 20-something-year-old. But you tend to have more mental strength and more mental grit the older you get just because you're like, "Whatever. This isn't a big deal." You're more mature and you can deal with pain and suffering. So I think that it's just kind of more like a slow and steady, but just keep going one foot in front of the other. But to that extent, that's kind of how I operate too is that I'm notoriously slow out of the gate. In the beginning of races, I'm always struggling to catch up with everyone, which is why I like longer races. But it's just kind of like picking them off one by one.

Seneca on Suffering (27:50)

When you are actually, before that, so suffering. Let's talk about suffering. I was just reading a letter of Seneca's. Who's that guy? That's the bust on the kitchen counter over there. It's related to, I think it's on fasting and celebration, something related to that. But it talks about exposing yourself to suffering along the lines of the more you sweat during peace, the less you bleed during war. So I practice fasting for many reasons among those being practicing hardship so I can endure it in other areas of my life. Do you do that in other places in your life where you deliberately expose yourself to different types of pain or suffering as a practice? Or is it limited to the suffer fest? With the amount that I race, there's plenty of suffering involved in that. It's sufficient. No. I guess I can't do the fasting thing. I'm not good with that. You're burning a lot more calories than I am. I'm like, if I don't eat every few hours, it's trouble for anyone around me. But I always try to train in less than ideal conditions if I can because I think that that adds a lot to – it's super easy to go out for a run when it's 70 degrees and sunny. But when I was living in Chicago, which I did for the past six years, if there's a windstorm or a thunderstorm, I'm like, "Let me out." Perfect time to run. Perfect time to go run. There was one time that they had shut down the lakefront path because the waves were coming over. And I was like, "Fuck it. I'm running anyway." Apparently, police don't like that. I'd love to see – please tell me the police tried to catch you on foot. No. Well, there was a bicycle cop who I was actually surprised that he was like out in the weather as well. But yeah, and he was like, "You can't. This is shut down." I'm like, "I'm just training. No big deal. No big deal." Yeah. Did that sway his position? No, no, no. Not at all.

Most challenging tough mudder obstacles and races for Amelia (30:13)

So training in less than ideal conditions. When you look back at the races that you've run, the obstacle course races, what has been the most challenging obstacle for you and what has been the most dangerous? I would say in terms of challenging, I always tend to – so there's always – I'm notoriously awful at throwing a spear. And it's well-known in communities that I can't throw a spear to save my life. And so in Spartan races, there's always a spear throw. And it's actually – it's cost me like tons of different races. And it's funny because it's one of those things that if you practice, you would probably be pretty good at it. This is why I'm puzzled right now. Okay. Continue. About throwing a spear? No, no. Like, "Smoke 'em, loudie." Like, "Ace lawyer." Like, "World champion racer." Okay. So continue. Not to interrupt. I can't throw a spear. No. It seems like the other thing you would sit down and study and master. You would think so. I actually think that playing softball my entire life kind of screwed me because I would try and throw it like you throw a softball, which you can't do. Oh, yeah. The underhand spear? No, no, no. Just like – yeah. Just messing with you. She throws like a girl. No, no, no. But come on. The pitching is completely different, right? Yes. It is completely different. I'm referring to the pitching, folks. Don't get all riled up. Correct. So that's always been – it's always been a challenge for me. I finally figured it out, but it's one of those things that like it's such a silly thing to struggle with, I think. But I guess that also could be the most dangerous because if you miss a spear throw and somebody is around – no, I'm joking. But there are some – in terms of danger for obstacles, like there are times where I'm sitting there being like, "Why hasn't somebody died in these – oh, I take that back. That's really bad because somebody did die." Yeah. Dangerous sport. Yeah. When you're racing for 24 hours especially like really long and you're like climbing super tall things like in the middle of the night, I'm always sitting there being like, "Man, one misstep and I'm falling backwards." I've taken some big diggers off the walls just because you're so tired. Big diggers meaning? Big, awful falls. Then these are walls that you're climbing over similar to a military obstacle course? Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How tall are they? They vary. Some are 8 feet. Some are 10 feet. Some are 12 feet. Some have ropes to help you up them. Others, there's big kind of like ladders, like military tack ladders that like climbing out of water. There was one time I think it was in 2012 World's Toughest Mudder, you climbed one of those out of a lake and it was like 20 feet up. But it was in the middle of the night and it was like frozen. So you're like iced over and you're like, "I'm going to die. I'm going to die." But yeah, so there's all these little dangers and people talk about the electricity involved in Tough Mudders, which is like a very disconcerting because I've been hit so hard sometimes that I've like blacked out. From the electricity? Yeah. Can you describe this obstacle to folks? Yeah. So there's a couple of variations of it. But basically there's these wires hanging. The worst variation was called electric eel. And you crawl through water that's about like two, three inches deep and there's wires hanging down over your head. And so you're like army crawling through it and your head is hitting these wires and there will occasionally shock you, zap you and it's 10,000 volts. I don't know. There's the difference between voltage and wattage and I don't really understand what it is, but one will kill you and one won't. So this is supposedly the stuff that won't kill you. But if you get hit in just the right way and you're in water, like I got hit so hard and my face smacked down through the water, I hit my head and then I blacked out. I started crawling the wrong way. And now it's one of those things that once you do something like that happens to you, you just have this insane fear of it. And so it's the worst for me now trying to... You just have the trepidation beforehand. The people who get injured or even the fatalities, what are the most common causes?

Injury, Recovery And Nutrition

Fatality, injuries, and the most common causes in obstacle course racing (35:07)

Honestly, I think the vast majority of injuries are things like rolled ankles, broken ankles, falling off things. What you would expect. What you would expect. I mean, I don't think they've never... The one unfortunate death that I think that we know that have occurred or deaths that have occurred have been like heat stroke, dehydration. Like the things that you find in like... The same that you find in ultramarathon. Exactly. Exactly. It's not surprisingly for something that is fraught with electricity and spears and climbing up super tall things and crawling barbed wire. Nobody's lost an eye, I don't think, from a barbed wire. One of my buddies got zapped in the eye with one of those electric lines. He was not super happy about that. I mean, the worst extent of my injuries are really like my body is just covered in barbed wire scars, like scratches. I can show you them, but I look like I was attacked by a tiger. Yeah. I was wondering what kind of cat you had. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like everywhere. Rope burns. I'm never going to be a leg model because like it's... Fifty shades of Tough Mudder. Oh, my God, it's covered.

Amelias knee surgery and rehab (36:24)

The surgery. I want to talk about your knee surgery. Yeah. Why did you get knee surgery? And let's start with that. What was the reason for the knee surgery? So I, last summer, heading into like world championship season, ended up tearing my meniscus and... That was in training? It was in training. It was like I was like running in Chicago and there were like potholes everywhere. And it was like one of those like freak... It was one of those freak things where you'd like step in something and you're like, "Ah, ah, my leg." And then I'm like running it off. I'm like, "Oh, wait, this actually isn't okay." And so, you know, I went and I had an MRI. I thought I was like, "Okay." But they're like, my leg like kept locking and I had to like physically unlock it. And so I think with certain meniscus tears that happens. And so they just had to go in there and shave down the meniscus and then there was some like tibial plateau fracture, whatever fancy. So I just had to stay off it for a bit. Yeah. When did you... So that happened. How much later did you compete? So I raced again eight weeks post-surgery. And I remember asking my surgeon... This was the world's toughest runner? Correct. 2014. Correct. Which you won. I did. So I remember asking my surgeon and I was like, "So how long till I'm back running?" He was like, "Maybe like four weeks." And I go, "So could I feasibly run a race like eight weeks later?" He's like, "Yeah." And I was like, "How long of a race?" And because he was like thinking like I was going to run a 5K. Do a 5K? Yeah. I was like, "Well, it's like 24 hours." So I never got his blessing for it, but I did anyway. What did you do between the... What steps did you take to rehab it? I mean, what were the most important things that you did? I mean, I think most importantly for me was getting into... I like got into physical therapy like the next day. I had the best physical therapist in Chicago and she was fantastic. She'd worked with me through other injuries and things like that. So we were pretty aggressive in rehabbing it. And then I just did whatever else I could to work around it to stay in shape. I think when people get injured, they forget that there's so much that they still can do. So I had a gym that had a ski erg, which if you've ever seen, it's like a rower turned upside down and you pull it like you're cross country skiing. So for two weeks, that was the only really thing I could do to keep my heart rate up. So a hand bike, ski erg. Hand bike, ski erg. I could row with one leg, but then that kind of throws... Then my other leg was just getting massive. But I would do... I rode a 10K or a ski erg to 10K, which is the worst kind of torture you can do to yourself. And just finding other ways to work around it. What other rehab modalities did you find most helpful personally? I did a lot of like STEM for... Because I think when you go and do... Electrical simulation. Electrical simulation, yeah. So when you go in and you cut open your knee or whatever, it shuts down your quad. And so the main thing is getting your quad to then come back and function again. And so STEM is really helpful in retraining that to get it to fire. So that was helpful. And really, I'm a huge fan of ART, Graston, all those...


So for those people not familiar, ART, active release technique, type of myofascial release. Correct. Which is super... Depending on how you have it done can be super unpleasant. If you're having your psoas work done. Oh my God. I love that pain though. I think it's like... You like having some... Yeah, like therapist with their ridge hand knuckle deep into your psoas. I had... Just as a side note. All right. So I'm going to give a shout out to this guy, Jesse Burdick, who is a power lifter, who trains with a friend of mine named Mark Bell. I mean, they do a lot of training separately, but I think he pulls... And Jesse, I apologize if I get this wrong, but he can deadlift more than 700 pounds. He's a big unit. And we were getting ready to do... He also does manual therapy. So we're getting ready to do an ART session. And so he puts him on a table and kind of drapes like one leg off. And he goes, "The safe word is brisket." And then just proceeds to annihilate my hips. So the basic idea, folks, for those of you who don't know ART, and please correct me if I get this wrong, but if you have adhesions, let's just say, with scar tissue between adjacent tissues, you apply pressure, manual pressure, a therapist applies pressure, between those tissues, then has you perform motions like an overhead kind of reaching movement for the lats to break apart those adhesions. Graston, which is like having really thick butter knives scraped all over you. Right. I read that you use something, and I'm embarrassed. I actually don't know what this is. Dry needling? Oh, yeah. What is that? Sounds terrible. It's apparently illegal in California, which is why you probably don't know what it is. It's like acupuncture on crack. So, and acupuncture is actually rightfully probably hate it, because I think they think it's kind of like a bastardization of what they do. But so when you go and you get acupuncture, and the goal is to not feel the needle, dry needling, you actually are sticking the needle in the muscle belly to try and get it to twitch, and the twitch is like the release. So, it's like, and you don't leave the needles in there. So, you're basically like poking at a muscle to try and get it. It's just sewing machine. Yeah. And the worst ever, don't ever let anybody dry needle your calf, your gastroc, because like if you get in underneath like right in like the hamstring insertion, like you will feel like you got shot in the back of your legs. And it can also be kind of addictive because like you have somebody like poking around your glute meat, and you feel this twitch, and it's almost like this like release of the muscle. And what does it do for you? It's supposed to, you know, for super tight muscles, the idea is to get it to release. Release spasms? Yeah. Huh. So, yeah. I had this nutty experience, and if people want to see photos of me in excruciating pain, getting ART done by Charles Poliquin, you can see that in the four-hour body.

Calcium Deposits and The Shovel. (43:04)

It's kind of hilarious. But I had a separate experience with something called, let's see, I guess it would be called, I want to say neuro-puncture, but I might be getting that wrong. This was done with Dr. Leigh Wolfer many years ago with shallow injections of Prolo Solutions. Oh, yeah. And what happened though, and we improvised at this point, is she was working on my infraspinatus. So this is a rotator cuff muscle that always gets sore for me. I had reconstructive shoulder surgery, and I probably sit like chest-collapsed, you know, you know, golem when I'm typing also which is no good. But she was working on my infraspinatus and she was doing the kind of sewing machine approach with these shallow injections. And we both hear crrrrrr and it sounded like someone was scraping ice of a windshield. And it turned out that I had these, just this huge clump of calcium deposits at the back of both shoulders. And so we ended up just, well we, so Royal, she ended up using the needle basically as a scraper to kind of break down these calcium deposits. And what was fascinating is no shoulder pain for months afterward. After chiseling these out. Wasn't the most pleasant thing in the world. So the dry needling, now that you're here in California, no more sad times, no more glute and meat pokes. - I'm gonna have to like, yeah, go back to my-- - Black market dry needling. - Yeah, you know, well sometimes though, I'll get acupuncture done and I'm gonna be like, can you guys like, and like they'll accidentally, a muscle will trigger and release. And I'm like, oh, that's fantastic, do it again. But I'm one of those people I'm like, I'll try anything once in terms of like recovery or like, you know, I'll just throw the, especially because for most professional athletes that they do, you know, their job is like to be a professional athlete and then to like rehab and recover and spend all that time. I'm like training early in the mornings. I go and I sit at his desk for 10 hours a day and then I like try and like train and get in the evenings. Like it's not an ideal, like I'm not doing my body any favors for like with what I'm putting it through. - What does your nutrition look like?

Race day superstitions (45:27)

no, we were, were you serious earlier when I asked you about breakfast? All right, what was your answer? We were doing a sound check and I asked her what she had for breakfast, what was your answer? - Pop tarts. - Pop tarts. - No, that's actually, so pop tarts has become kind of this like running joke in the obstacle racing community with me because when I won the Spartan Race World Championships in 2013, I was so far ahead. I was like 20, 30 minutes ahead of the next woman and the race director yells out at me, he goes, "Millie, what'd you have for breakfast this morning?" And I'm like, "Pop tarts." And I actually did randomly that day 'cause they're a really good source of easy, easily digestible carbs. - Millie, is that what you said? Or did you say your full name? Sorry, I heard Millie. - She said it, sorry, said it, Amelia. - Oh, okay, got it. - Sometimes I can't say my own name. And so it kind of became this thing that like I would just like pre-race ritual that would be like a good luck thing to like have a pop tart. - Sure. - 'Cause I'm a really big person into superstition and it's kind of grown from there. And now I see like I was at a race the other weekend and like everyone around me was eating pop tarts. And I'm like, "What have I started?" Like what? And then everyone like posts these pictures on Instagram of them eating pop tarts and like they tag me in it. And I'm like, "Oh my God, I've created a monster." - Well, this actually could be an incredible opportunity for you to do whatever you want because I remember watching Pumping Iron and Arles Hurseneggers talking about the guys who'd come up to him and ask him for advice and he'd give them the wrong advices. And he would like tell them to go into the shower at the gym and like scream while they're posing. So you could actually, you could pull an incredible April Fool's joke but announce it a year later after everyone has already embraced it. - I know, so now I'm like, "Okay, well, what's the next thing?" Like what's the, you know. - What other superstitions do you have? Not limited to racing necessarily. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm one of those people that, so it's the same, like I will wear the same sports bra. Like, so we race pretty much in like sports bra and like compression shorts 'cause you want as little clothing to like hold down the mud as possible. So I'll wear the same, you know, if I did well in a race, like I'll wear the same outfit for like the next race and especially the same headband. And then if I don't do well, then that one gets discarded, you know? And so it's that kind of like your typical sports stuff. I actually have, this is just kind of embarrassing, but a small little stuffed dog that travels with me to all races. And because I'm typically by myself in really cheap sketchy hotels because these races are like in the middle of nowhere. So it's like my little guard dog. - How big is the stuffed dog? - Oh, it like fits in the palm of your hand. - Where did you get that? - It was given to me as a gift. - As a protection. - As a protection. - As a guardian. - As a guard dog. So yeah, I mean, it's just, it's silly.

Amelia's nutrition regime (48:46)

It's silly stuff like that. - You're outside of Pop-Tarts. - Yeah. What do I actually eat? - Yeah, what is your, let's just say you're four weeks out from a race. - Yeah. - What is your, what does a day of food look like for you? - Oh, that's hard to say. Honestly, like it's one of those things I've struggled with that I've tried every, like I tried to do paleo. I tried to be like, maybe I can become a fat adapted athlete because for longer races, I didn't want to have to like rely on gels. - Gels, right. - And stuff like that because after a while, it can be too much on your stomach. But I just never, I'm never gonna be the paradigm of good eating of like, and I couldn't stick with like, you know, the whole like, you know, trying to, I couldn't go far enough into like the fat adaptation. Like I was just miserable. I like ice cream way too much. - It's somewhat condra indicated for ketosis and fat adaption. - Exactly, exactly. - Much to my chagrin. - At a certain point, I think I realized, I'm like, you know, I'm performing well. I'm winning races. So why change, if it gets to the point where I'm not doing well. - Performing. - Then I'll take another look at my diet and switch it. But at this point, it's like, I run so much. I put in so much, you know, time that I'm like, whatever I enjoy food and I'll eat kind of whatever I want. - What do you consume during a 24 hour race?

Detailed Nutrition And Workouts

How does Amelia eat in a 24-hour race? (50:16)

What is your, and this is actually a question from a fan, which was how does your gear that you bring with you differ in an obstacle course race versus an ultra marathon for instance? - Yeah. - Aside from the wetsuit. - Yeah, so I think it really depends. If you're running, as I've learned from like dabbling in ultra marathons is that my body does it, especially if you're running hard, my body isn't gonna handle solid food as well as like the stomach will, like stomach acid and stuff like that. So there's a lot of like liquid, like tailwind is a good, you know, something that a lot of people use to like, then it's really easy on your stomach. - Tailwind, that's a good name. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, but I also just find, you know, like simple, I actually really love like, like I like chewing on things, like Cliff makes these blocks. So, you know, like I do, I take in simple sugars that like fuel me through that. I'm-- - How often do you eat during a 24 hour race? - I try and fuel every, like, I try to fuel every, like I try and fuel every 30 minutes to an hour, get something in, but little bits. And then I'm telling you, sometimes though the best things during like a long race are like, oh God, I had a Krispy Kreme donut during World's Toughest Matter this past year. And it was like the most phenomenal thing I'd ever had. Salty things, you know, like you wanna make sure that you, like your electrolytes are, especially if you're running in a wetsuit 'cause you're losing, I mean-- - You must be losing so much, such incredible amount of fluids. - Yeah, I mean, so pickle juice, mustard, things like that. - Do you carry that with you? There are stations where you grab that. - There are stations, there are-- - I'm just imagining like a Camelbak half full of pickle juice. - Well, I actually do, I carry mustard packets with me. - Mustard packets. - Small packets. So, 'cause vinegar is, if you ever have issues with cramping, you know, they say that like the vinegar, the salt and stuff like that can, pickle juice is well known to stop cramps in their tracks. - Pickle juice? - Yeah. - I suppose that makes sense. - Yeah, I mean, pickle juice is harder to carry with you unless you have like a little vial or something like that. But yeah, so I think that for the longer the race gets, you obviously need more gear and especially depending on like the cold and the weather and what your conditions are. And so, you know, sometimes it's pretty massive.

Electrolytes (53:01)

- You're mentioning electrolytes. It's fascinating when you look at sort of the record of health issues in endurance races. Most people assume that a lot of it would be related to dehydration, but oftentimes it's the complete opposite where a lot of people, many people consume too much water and they get, I guess it's, I might get the hyponatremia where you dilute sodium to the extent that in some cases your heart stops functioning, right? And I recall I was doing this kettlebell certification years ago and it was just like thousands and thousands of swings and whatnot outside in Minnesota and people were getting horrible cramps and they're like, "Oh, we're not drinking enough water. We need to drink more water." I'm like, "No, that's not the issue. You need some potassium tablets." And it's, but God, that can just be the worst. I mean, do people, I would imagine there must be a fair number of competitors who just have to drop out because they get like a quad or a hamstring cramps or does that- - Yeah, cramps can be like super debilitating. And I think, and especially like in really hot races and also in really cold races and stuff like the extremes. So that, you know, it happens. It's the reason why the longer the race is to get, you know, like the more unknown and things like that go into it. And so it can be, it's always kind of a crap shoot, you know, like you're like, come on body, please cooperate with me this one time. But sometimes you can't predict it, so.

Supplements (54:32)

- What supplements do you use on a daily basis? - Caffeine, no, I like coffee. So I am actually really, have really kind of bought the hype and the science behind beets. - Beets, yeah. - So I actually, I work with a company called Beat Elite, which is it's powdered beet, concentrated beet. And so it's really that, like, if you, I remember the first time I ever had beet juice, which just tastes like death, like dirt. I mean, some people like beet juice, but I can't handle it. But like, you feel this weird like head rush almost. And so I was like, well, there might be something to this shit. So it's, so I am really, it's something that I actually like drink every, like before workouts and stuff like that. And, you know, delivers the nitric oxide to help the breathing and everything like that. So I think for endurance athletes, you don't need, I don't need the massive dose of caffeine before I go out, you know, and run because who wants to be jittery while like, you know, running for several hours. You need more of like the, like the help with the breathing and keeping the heart rate low and stuff like that. And then I also take, you know, I try to stay away from like anti-inflammatories like Advil and stuff like that, just because, you know, it's hard on the body, but big believer in like turmeric and other things like that. And then anything to try and help with like bones and joints.

Bone broth (56:05)

- So you're just taking like glucosamine or MSM or what type of stuff? - Yeah, but I try and get a natural, I'm like bone broth and gelatin and things like that, you know, but bone broth is an expensive habit until I like bite the bullet and make my own. But then I have to like handle chicken feet and not really into that, so. - You're in a good place for the bone broth. I'm in the Bay Area. There's like, what is it, Three Stone Hearth, I think in Berkeley and further down the peninsula, you have some really good sources as well, fortunately. Hippies love bone broth. - Oh God, it's like the new thing, so yeah. - And for anybody in New York, I'll just give a shout out to a new, I guess it's kind of a side gig started by a chef friend of mine, Marco Canora, who is in the Four Hour Chef, Brodo. They serve hot bone broth in the winters in New York City. B-R-O-D-O, it's amazing. And you can get turmeric or cumin, you get different flavored. - Oh yeah, yeah, and put things actually. - Yeah, you can pay for the add-ons.

Prehab routine (57:08)

What does your prehab routine look like? So the exercises, what exercises do you do to prevent injuries? - Yeah, so the main injuries that I've kind of dealt with have always been kind of revolving like hips and you know, glutes, like most runners, glutes that don't fire, so like I-- - The irony. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So like Jane Fonda's are the gold standard, but it's a lot of like kind of like stability work. So I try and do a lot of single leg stuff. - What type of single leg stuff? - So single leg squats, you know, you see like crossfitters do like pistols all the way like Asti-grass, you don't need to do that kind of stuff, you know, it's just like small little like, you know, mini single leg squats. I try into like, whenever I'm standing around, I'm trying to like just stand like on one leg, like balancing and things like that. I do a lot of like band, you know, like the physio band like walks, so like monster walks where you're-- - Yeah, the X walks. - Yeah, the X walks, that kind of stuff. And then a lot of work, especially if it's a trail runner, you really want to work like your, I'm gonna say, what is your transverse abdominus or like the really deep core muscles? - Corset muscle. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So a lot of exercises that will like engage that, you know, like bird dogs and things like that, just they're, I mean, they're super like not fun and little tiny movements, but I think most people would rather go like, you know, squat 200 pounds and ignore those and that's not gonna help you. - So you're working on glute med, doing sort of isolateral or single leg movements.

Unilateral workouts (58:57)

Do you do step ups, any work on boxes? - I do. I do too, I think, and like lunges, things like that. Anything that's requiring you to, that is requiring, yeah, that like unilateral movement too. - And how much time would you say you spend on those types of prehab movements on a weekly basis? - It's probably about 15 to 20 minutes a day. - Okay, 15 to 20 a day. And do you do that pre-workout? Is it a separate workout or after? - It's generally like I'll do a few like activation, one, you know, like fire hydrants before and then after, it's generally afterwards that I'll kind of devote 15, 20 minutes to kind of that, those like small little strengthening baby exercises. - And how many miles on average do you run per week?

Lifestyle And Mindfulness Practices

Strava (59:53)

- You know, it's changed a lot. I used to, a few years ago, I actually didn't really put in that much mileage. I was like, you know, running too much is not good for you or whatever. I did, I've switched my training from, to be more running intensive 'cause I realized that if you're gonna run for 24 hours, you probably should run. - Be good at running. - Yeah, right, exactly. 'Cause I was just joking. I'm like, I'm not a runner. But then I realized that I actually, I love running on trails and I love long, long runs. And so now I'm probably putting in probably about 60, 70 miles a week, which actually is not that much for a lot of, you see a lot of runners who put in like 100 mile weeks. - 60, 70 miles a week. - Yeah. - And how much time do you spend doing other types of training, like weight training or otherwise? - Yeah, I do, so I used to, I generally will like CrossFit three to four days a week.

Hunter's Fitness Routine (01:00:47)

Or some kind of bastardized version of my own, if I'm not actually gonna make it to a CrossFit gym. And so also 'cause I kind of pick and choose what I like to do from that. So, I mean, I guess it would be probably, I don't know, five to six other hours of other strength training, like interval training, things like that. - What is your morning routine or routines look like? First 60 minutes of your day. - First 60 minutes. - So you wake up. - Yep. - Punch the roosters, make them crow, 4 a.m. What happens, what does your day look like between say four and 5.30? - Yeah, I mean, I wish I could give you an answer that's like, I go out and I do sun salutations or like breathing exercises or whatever. Well, the sun's not even out at that hour. But it's nothing really, it's nothing really that interesting. I mean, I wake up, you know, I'll, generally at that point, I'll actually typically answer some work emails that since I go to bed pretty early. - What time do you go to bed? - Probably, I try and get by nine. So sometimes I'll have work emails that'll come in like later than that. So I'll answer those. And then I'm just, you know, gathering everything up and heading out to if I'm going to the gym that day or if I'm hitting up the trails that day. So because I'll typically, I'll train in the morning and then I'll get ready and go straight into work. - What time do you get to work? - About 7.30 or so. And so-- - Now, have you eaten breakfast at this point or no? - I will eat, so generally, so I'll wake up-- - Pop tarts. - Just race days and this morning. 'Cause it's the only thing in the trunk of my car as I was driving up here. I had 10 pop pop tarts in the trunk of my car. But no, also I'll generally wake up and I actually typically eat a few spoonfuls of like nut butter to fuel before I go out for like if I'm gonna go run 10, 15 miles. It's a good source of fuel to keep me going. - So you'll just have like a few tablespoons of almond butter or something like that? - Pretty much. And then, yeah, and I found out that it sits well. And then I'll eat breakfast after I train and then get to the office, things like that. - So what does a non-pop tart breakfast look like? - Oh, generally, I'm a big fan of like omelets and eggs and things like that in the morning. Mainly because I really like ketchup and I always put ketchup on it.

Does Hunter Practice Mindfulness? (01:03:39)

- Just a vehicle for the ketchup. - Pretty much. You sense a sugar theme going on here. Don't take diet advice from a millionaire. - I want to just take perhaps a few of these fan questions. - Yeah. - And we've hit on a number of them already. But-- - I didn't know I had fans, but thank you. - Yes, you did. - Unless they're all coming from Scott. - You have a lot of fans among my fans. So this is a question that I'd be interested to hear the answer to as well. This is from Cindy Palouian. I'm probably mastering that. What is your self-talk during training and during the challenges sound like? The moment when you want to quit. Now, just to head this off at the pass, the answer may be that you don't feel like you want to quit. But during extremely hard races or challenging times, what does your self-talk look like? 'Cause I've found many athletes, and maybe not you, but have sort of consistent routines in terms of their self-talk. - So what's interesting, especially with long races, is that you're always going to hit a low part. Like, there's always going to be a part where you want to quit, you know? 24 hours at like, and for me it generally comes early. It's like four hours in, and I'm like, God, I gotta do this for 20 more hours. - Another 20 hours. - Ha! You know, the sun's setting, it's getting cold, the wind's picking up, there's a massive sandstorm, whatever. For me, I think, I generally, it's hard, 'cause people ask me about self-talk, I generally just shut my brain off. And I feel like that that's what keeps, I don't really think about anything. But I think when-- - Has that always been the case? - I think so. I think that-- - And you just will that into being? - I think I just kind of go, well, I use different coping techniques. I sing to myself a lot when I'm out there. - Please tell me you sing out loud. - Sometimes, yes. - Really? - Yeah. If I have enough breath. So, yeah, there will be a certain song for every race that will just kind of replay through my head. So, 2012 World's Toughest Mudder was Macklemore's Thrift Shop. It was right before it hit big. No, right before it busted out. And I swear to God, I sing that song over and over again and I can't listen to it the same way anymore. - What other songs, so those are like your mantra, was Macklemore. - Yeah. - That was like your meditative mantra. - Pretty much, for 24 hours. - For 24 hours, that's dedication. What other songs have you used? - Oh God, they range all over the place. Sometimes, it's just all kind of like sing. Sometimes, it'll be like, so my favorite hymn ever is, I was raised Catholic and whatever, and I love, I've always loved church music. So, there's a Christmas song, like "Low How a Rose Air Blooming." It's like an old hymn. Not at all what you would think would be like running through my head, like running a race. Sometimes, it does. But then, this other race, it was Kanye. It was like Kanye's Monster, or like the song was called Monster. You know, so. - Do other racers do that as well, that you're aware of? Or do any other top racers have coping approaches that you think are interesting? - You know, I think that, a lot of people have that self-talk. I've always tried to, and I think this is pretty common, is that a lot of us will try and break up the race into small segments. 'Cause if you look at the whole picture, it will get overwhelming. If you're like, "I have 100 miles to run," and you're like, "Crap." But if you're like, "No, I only have three miles," or "I'm just gonna focus on getting through these next 10 minutes." And so, I've always found that a lot of people who do long endurance events will break it up into small manageable chunks, and just focus on the next few minutes ahead of them. And I think that works pretty well.

Does Lindsay have a meditation practice? (01:08:12)

- Do you, I mean, it sounds like you probably have some form of meditation when you run. And I think that in terms of just mindfulness, I'm sure it's a very present state of where to start with. But do you have a separate meditative practice of any type? - I don't. I've tried. I went to this retreat thing that was fantastic, and I tried to do this meditation session. And I just, 20 minutes in, I was like, "I gotta move and do something and get out of here." So for me, it's almost like the meditation is like, is working really hard, like sprinting or running or lifting heavy weights. Like that's like my yoga practice, you know?

The BattleFrog 24 Hour. (01:08:56)

- Now, I don't know what this refers to, but since Will Hicks is asking, "Are you going to do the 24 hour battle frog in March?" Does that mean anything to you? - It does, yes. It's a race. It's another 24 hour obstacle race. You know, maybe, I don't know. My schedule next year is kind of up in the air. I really want to kind of like venture and challenge like myself in new ways. And so I think I'm gonna be doing a lot more like pure trail races too, which I haven't really had a chance, especially being out here in California. You know, it's much better.

Moving to California. (01:09:36)

Like I love climbing, running up mountains and stuff like that, so. - Why did you decide to move to California? - A variety of reasons. I think the main was, I'm from the West Coast. I want to get back here. And then it was a time for a transition and a career for me. You know, I'd been at a law firm for six years and it was great and they were fantastic, but kind of wanted to try a new, like, you know, going in house and working for a company there. And then actually, I'll be honest, that totally the training and having mountains and hills around me, it was really hard. I am the happiest when I am out on a mountain running around somewhere and I couldn't do that in Chicago. So. - Are you able to disclose the company that you're working for? - Yes. So it's just tiny little company. You may have heard of it. Maybe not. I work for Apple, yeah. - It's a good company. I have a lot of friends at the mothership. Just wanted to make sure they would allow you to, at least to move you right there. - I'm on like my LinkedIn and Facebook profile.

Recommendations And Personal Shares

Keeping your body limber during a race. (01:10:42)

- Okay, so it's public. - Yeah. - This is a very racing specific question. Steven McKee, how do you keep your body limber after ice or water immersion during a race? - Keep moving? - Just keep moving. - I mean, because, yeah. Yeah, otherwise if you slow down, that's when your body temperature goes down and then you're gonna get hypothermic, so. - Let's go to the third act. - Okay.

An example of Lindsay Davies unconscious mind at work. (01:11:13)

- Which is rapid fire questions. They don't have to be rapid fire answers. But the word successful, and you hear the word successful, who's the first person who comes to mind and why? - God, that's so hard. 'Cause this is gonna be your typical lawyer answer where I'm like, well, because successful can have so many different definitions. - No, no, that's fair though. But just sort of reflexively. - So this is gonna be kind of a strange answer probably. But I always find people who have transitioned their careers throughout their, who've had like, who've, I guess, who've been flexible in their careers and who have transitioned, no, that answer's not coming out right. Okay, here we go. I'm gonna use an example. - I do that all the time, don't worry. - I was trying to record like a 20 second intro for this little audio book yesterday, and it probably took me 47 takes. - Right, so you're all like, well, blah, blah, blah. - So the example. - Yeah, so I'm going to give you an example of a person who I find successful, and then I'll explain why. - Perfect. - Triple H. - Triple H. - So I am a huge wrestling fan, huge professional wrestling fan. And the reason why I'm gonna use it, and I could use a number of people as this example, but the reason that I'm gonna use this is because I find people who have had like one who, so he had a very successful wrestling career, but then transitioned into the business aspect of it. You find so many people on it. This is interesting being in, I guess you could technically call me kind of a professional athlete. You see a lot of people who I find are very kind of shortsighted in that, they're like, well, I'm racing now, but they don't think about what happens when they can no longer do that. So people who have been able to have a very successful athletic career and then transition into the business side of things, or to think far ahead. And so those are the people that I look to that I'm like, they have everything. They have the athletic side of it, but then they also have the business acumen and are smart enough to know that their body isn't going to always be there for them. - Ashka Delahuey, a good example too with the Golden Boy Productions.

Triple H. (01:13:36)

- Right. - Very savvy. - I mean, if we wanna keep going professional wrestling, it's like The Rock, things that have transitioned to being an actor. - He's done all right. - So. - Triple H is a great example though. Paul Levesque, really smart guy. I had him on the podcast. - Listen to him. - Oh, it just blew my mind. Really, really, really savvy guy. - Right, right. Okay, so Triple H. I agree, I also view him. He works out at, I think, midnight every day with Joe DeFranco, like after his entire. - Right. - He is very. - Okay, so we're like the opposite. - You guys have, right. - And he's going back. - You have the opposite schedules. - But he's also a big fan of routine, which I know and I've heard him talk about too. And that's how I get by. And like, I don't care where I am in life. If I'm traveling, if I'm on the road for work, like I'm going to create a routine there and stick with it, you know? And so, that's how you survive.

Controversial beliefs. (01:14:32)

- What is something that you believe that other people think is insane? Or any controversial beliefs that you have? - Interesting. - And if nothing jumps to mind, we can also come back to that. - Right. Hmm. Yeah, I may need to come back to that one.

- Okay, we'll come back to that. What book or books have you gifted most to other people? - I'm going to butcher this author's name, because I always do. House of Leaves by Mark. - House of Leaves. - Mark Daniel Danylooski. So, and the reason that I say this and that I would give this is that, so many people now read on like Kindles or technology or things like that. This is a book that you have to hold, because there are parts of it where you need to turn it upside down to read it. And I forget the style of what it's called, the style of writing. There's an actual like genre for it. But like there are certain pages where you are reading it and it turns in a circle. So it's in like an entire, I think that reading a book and, you know, holding the physical book and turning the pages is such a lost art, you know? And so there's something, but this is a book that's like an entire sensory experience. It's a fantastic story. It's brilliant. It's kind of like a story within a story, but then it requires you as a reader to be like active and involved, you know? And I think that's just so cool because you don't see stuff like that anymore. And especially now when people read things on, you know, their iPads or their Kindles or whatever, and kind of like holding a book is something that we no longer do. - House of Leaves, very cool. Do you have any favorite documentaries or movies? - My all time favorite movie is The Goonies. - The Goonies. - I mean. - It's a quality film. - It's a quality, it's not gonna like, it's not life-changing, but you know, it's a-- - Any favorite character from The Goonies? - Data. - Data. Data is great. - Pinterest Power. I mean like, yeah, growing up in Oregon, you just had to, like that was my jam, you know? We didn't have much to claim being from Oregon, but we could claim that movie. - What is the purchase that is most, for less than $100, purchase of less than $100 that has most positively impacted your life in recent memory?

Most positive under-100 purchase (01:17:09)

- This is a really funny answer. So, Manuka Honey Bandages. So I get banged up a lot, racing. - Yeah, see, yeah, there's, some of the photos that you sent me, so before we do these interviews, I ask for a short bio, some photos that might be usable, and I'm looking at one of them, you're climbing up this ramp, and you're just covered in blood. So, yes, you get banged up. - So, this past summer, I actually, there's this one obstacle called Terolean Traverse, where you basically-- - What is it called? - Terolean Traverse. - Terolean. - Yeah, so it's like you've seen, like in the military guys, they like, it's a rope thing. You either go under it, and it's just a rope traverse, but you can also go on top of it. It saves your grip. And I decided one day, one race, to go on top of it, saving my grip, and I was wearing just a sports bra, and massive rope burn all down the front of my, and like the worst pain was like a second-degree burn, and I discovered that the only thing that would take away the sting were these like honey bandages, and there's only, CVS was the only place that sold them. - CVS has Manuka honey bandages? - The only, or I could find them online too, and I swear, it was the only thing that got me through like the next few weeks in like no pain, but now I use them all the time for all of like my scrapes, and it's, they're great, like antibacterial, blah, blah, blah. I mean, with the number that I bought, I'm sure it's over, I've spent way more than $100 on them, but. - The Manuka honey bandages, cool. Now, I usually ask about morning routines.

Self-Reflection, Relationships, And Inspirations

A once-a-week action that promotes feeling connected (01:19:06)

We already covered quite a bit of that. What other routines or habits do you find important in your day or week? - I, it's very easy for me to, or I think it's very easy for a lot of people to get disconnected from people around, especially now in our like social media type of world, is that like you like something on Instagram or favorite something on Twitter or whatever, whatever the things are that you do. So it's very important for me to like, I always set a time every single week when I call my parents like at the same time and I call my sister and to try and make those, those personal connections and stuff like that, because it can be so impersonal now with everything that we have, technology that you can be like friends with people that you've never met in real life. So I always try like for me that routine, like every Sunday at the same time, calling the parents, just kind of like keeping me grounded, things like that. - Do you have any wind down routine?

Most exacting observations (01:20:15)

What does the hour before bed look like? - So I generally, oh. - Can't wait to hear this. - No, I was just like, I was just trying to think of like, if I actually had, 'cause generally I'll be, you know, watching Monday Night Raw or some other professional wrestling. I don't watch a lot of TV, but it's either sports or professional wrestling when I do. You know, I am generally one of those people that's like so tired by the time it's time to go to bed. I don't really need a routine. - Don't have any necessity. - It's like, all right, it's time to go to bed. - Out, out cold. - Yeah. - Got it. If you could have a billboard anywhere, what would it say? Put anything on it? - I think I would say, I think it would be something along the lines of no one owes you anything. And I think that this has been something that lately, I feel like there's such a level of entitlement now in people like that, oh, I deserve this or I blah, blah, blah, this. And at the end of the day, I'm like, it's hard work. The people that I find the most successful, people that I, one thing that I've always prided myself on is that like, I've worked really goddamn hard for everything that I've gotten or that I've done in my life and you can't expect handouts from people. At the end of the day, all that you can count on really is yourself and so I don't expect people to give me anything so and I really wish, so you see people now, I don't know, the level of entitlement that people think that they deserve a handout or deserve help sometimes. Sometimes I'm like, no, make it yourself. Make your own opportunities. - Yeah, that's very pronounced here in Silicon Valley too. - It's like, I know you just had a great idea when you went to the bathroom but it's not worth $50 million yet, I'm sorry. - Exactly.

Is it hard to date women who kick 99% of the men's butts? (01:22:38)

- This is not one of my normal rapid fire questions and I'm sure I'm gonna get a lot of grief for this from my fans but I have to ask because I know a lot of very successful women, CEOs and so on. So 2012, second place overall, I mean you could have potentially, I mean it's well within the realm of possibility you could have won the whole thing. Do you find it hard to date? Is it, I mean is it, because I'm imagining if I put myself in your shoes, it must be, and you're extremely successful in your career, is it hard for you to find someone you respect enough to date? I mean in like the mental, physical, emotional toughness spheres? - So I don't think that it's so much me. - That's how it always starts. - It's not me, it's him. No, I honestly, so I tend to be attracted to people that are almost like, I don't wanna say the exact opposite than me because then that sounds like I'm attracted to people who aren't successful. But what I found is that I need somebody who's very complimentary to me in terms of like, very kind of, I admire people that are super laid back and go with the flow and very adaptable and just everything that I'm not. And so I think that like for me, it's not so hard to find people like that. I think though, sometimes you do get, you'll hear, it takes a certain type of guy who can be secure with being with a woman who beats 99% of the dudes at like a sport or whatever. And that feels weird to say 'cause that feels like I'm being like, look at me, I'm such a badass. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Facts are the facts. - But I think that it takes actually a guy who's very secure in his own, right? I can't date somebody who's not secure in who he is because then that would just be disastrous. - Doesn't sound like it would get very far. - No.

Amelia's advice to her 20, 25, and 28 y/o self (01:24:55)

- What advice would you give your 25-year-old self and place us, 20 and 25? I'd be interested to get it for both ages. So where were you when you were doing it, 20 and then 25? - So 20, I was finishing up college, probably just getting ready to apply to law school, super hardcore driven, going to be partner in a law firm one day, all those things. I think at that time I would tell myself to relax and that you can't predict where life is going to take you. And because now looking at I'm like, would I ever expect that I'd be like the world's top obstacle racer? We didn't even know what the fuck obstacle, it wasn't even around at that time. - Wasn't even a thing, yeah. - Wasn't even a thing. And so, and I think at 25, I was finishing up law school and I was starting my career as an attorney. So it would probably be similar, but I think what I would tell, I'm actually gonna give you, I would tell my 28-year-old self, which is when I started all of this obstacle racing stuff. And I would tell myself, it really doesn't matter at the end of the day, okay, that sounds bad, but like don't take it so seriously. And at the end-- - The racing itself. - The racing itself. Because when you reach, it started out as totally fun and then you reach a certain level of success and everyone, then it becomes this pressure and everything like that. And I think that it's not all of the stress and the pressure and everything that I would put on myself from it, it's not worth it. It doesn't change the outcome. I'm either ready or I'm not to beat somebody. So at the end of the day, keep it all in perspective. And it's kind of hilarious. I'm running around in the mud, being shocked by electrical things, running around for 24 hours in a wetsuit. Just keep that in perspective. It's kind of ludicrous what I'm doing. So have fun with it. 'Cause there's so much time that I think that I've wasted not putting so much pressure on myself and not having fun. And now I've kind of come full circle. I'm like, ah, it's just fun.

Amelia's bucket list of people she'd love to meet someday (01:27:32)

- Who is someone or who are people you would like to meet someday? If any are. - God, I see that list is like massive. - Who's up at the top of the list? - Ronda Rousey. - Ronda Rousey. - I like to meet strong, I have an entire list, like strong females who are at the top of what they do. - She's on my list too. - Right. But then that also extends to just other things that are not athletically inclined. So you see like Sheryl Sandberg and like the females that have made names for themselves and as top executives and things like that. So I'm not like rah rah girl power type of person, but finding other women like that and seeing what makes them tick and seeing how they survive is always really interesting for me. - What, if any, asks or requests do you have for the audience?

Amelias request of the audience (01:28:38)

And this is the last question. - Ask or request. - Anything you'd like them to do. Or think about or consider or all of the above. - Right. You know, I think one of the things that I've learned is like, and what I would tell people is like, be open to experiences, you know? And especially with, they're probably like sitting, oh, people, if they're sitting here listening to this, they're either already in obstacle course racing and are like, man, this shit's bananas, it's great, you know? So I don't need to convince them of anything. Or if they've happened upon this and they're like, we don't understand what this chick is doing actually. Like, I don't know. I would say go out there and like, you know, try something new. So if that's off, if you wanna go out and run off school, race course, like great. But I wouldn't be where I am today without, you know, just like saying sure and trying something and seeing where that leads me. So I think that's always kind of important to keep in mind. - Try something new. - Yeah. - That's good advice. - Yeah. - Do something. - I'm not sure I'm asking them to do something there. - No, no, no. I think it's good advice. I mean, do something just for the fuck of it, I think is. Kind of. - Right. - Coming back to your don't take it so seriously, like not everything has to figure into your five year plan. - And I think that's hard because for me, it's like I've always been that like super plan or five year person. So it's something that I actually have to remind myself is like try something new Amelia, like just do it. - Yeah. - Why not do it? - That was one of my, I think I call it resolutions. It wasn't a new year's resolution, but I've done did a lot of unusual experiments last year. We won't get into right now. But one of the realizations was be playful. Like you don't have to be so goddamn serious about things all the time. I mean, this like do something that doesn't have an explicit point or an angle or whatever it might be. - Well, somebody told me the other day that the only thing at the end of the day, the only thing we have is time. If you really cut through all the bullshit out there, and like this is funny when you asked me about like who do you think is successful? Like seriously, I think the most successful people who are out there are people that are happy, that are just like they may not have it all. They may be dirt poor, they may not be educated, they may whatever. But if they can art everyday life smiling and just generally happy, like if you break it all down, all we have is time. So why spend it being miserable? So like go do something that makes you happy and like and have fun with it. 'Cause you're not taking it with you when you go. - It's your most valuable non-renewable resource. - Exactly. - As far as we know. - So well right.

Conclusion And Contact Information

How to find Amelia (01:31:42)

When my time finally comes and I realize that there's like a super cool world on the other side, I'm gonna be like, "God damn it." - Well, Amelia, thanks so much for taking the time. And where can people say hello, find you on the interwebs and so on? - On my grossly needs updating website, But I actually am most active on Twitter. It's just the handle is AmeliaBoon. - Boon with an E. - What? - Boon with an E at the end. AmeliaBoon, B-O-O-N-E. - Correct. But be forewarned, I tweet a fair amount about the Seahawks and professional wrestling. So if you're not into that, you probably don't wanna follow me. And then I'm on Instagram as well. It's @arboone11 because AmeliaBoon was already taken by the time I joined that. - A-R-Boon11. - Correct. And I'm on Facebook. I don't have an athlete page because I don't really like that or believe in that. But you can follow me. But I don't really become friends with people I haven't met before in life 'cause that weirds me out. - So Twitter. - So Twitter and Instagram are your best pets. - Twitter and Instagram. Cool, well this has been a blast. Everybody listening, we will link to the books and so on, the Manuka Honey Bandages. And whatnot, everything mentioned in the show notes. You can just go to, all spelled out, forward slash podcast. And that will have all episodes, including this one. And I'll create just a short link you can go to, or it's not a short link, but a URL. You can go to That will go straight to this episode. And Amelia, once again, thank you so much for taking the time. - Thank you. Appreciate it.

Tim signs off (01:33:32)

- And I would say let's go for a run sometime, but I have some training to do before I'm prepared for that. And to everybody listening, as always, thank you so much for sticking around, and we'll see you soon. Hey guys, this is Tim again.

Tim gives a few final notes (01:33:45)

Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to That's all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by 99 Designs.

The 99 Designs.. (01:34:51)

When your business needs a logo, website, business card, thumbnail, or any other design, I recommend checking out 99 Designs. I use them myself. I've used them for many years. I use them to create book cover prototypes for the 4-Hour Body, which went on to become a number one New York Times bestseller. I've also used them for banner ads, illustrations, and much more. With 99 Designs, you get a variety of original designs from designers around the world. Give your feedback and then pick your favorite. Your happiness is guaranteed. So check out some of my competitions and designs and some of your competitions and designs from fellow Tim Ferriss Show listeners at And right now, you can get a free $99 upgrade on your first design.

Design Your Business and Life (01:35:31)

So check it out, This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront, and this is a very unique sponsor.

Wealthfront (01:35:42)

Wealthfront is a massively disruptive, in a good way, set it and forget it investing service led by technologists from places like Apple and world famous investors. It has exploded in popularity in the last two years and they now have more than two and a half billion dollars under management. In fact, some of my very good friends, investors in Silicon Valley, have millions of their own money in Wealthfront. So the question is why, why is it so popular? Why is it unique? Because you can get services previously reserved for the ultra wealthy, but only pay pennies on the dollar for them. And this is because they use smarter software instead of retail locations, bloated sales teams, et cetera. And I'll come back to that in a second. I suggest you check out Take the risk assessment quiz, which only takes two to five minutes, and they'll show you for free exactly the portfolio they put you in. And if you just wanna take their advice, run with it, do it yourself, you can do that. Or, as I would, you can set it and forget it. Here's why. The value of Wealthfront is in the automation of habits and strategies that investors should be using on a regular basis, but normally aren't. Great investing is a marathon, not a sprint, and little things that you may or may not be familiar with, like automatic tax loss harvesting, rebalancing your portfolio across more than 10 asset classes and dividend reinvestment add up to very large amounts of money over longer periods of time. Wealthfront, as I mentioned, since it's using software instead of retail locations, et cetera, can offer all of this at low costs that were previously completely impossible. Right off the bat, you never pay commissions or account fees.

Financial Management

$15,000 Managed for Free (01:37:17)

For everything they charge, 0.25% per year on assets above the first 15,000, which is managed for free if you use my link, That is less than $5 a month to invest a $30,000 account, for instance. Now normally, when I have a sponsor on this show, it's because I use them and recommend them. In this case, it's a little different. I don't use Wealthfront yet because I'm not allowed to. Here's the deal. They wanted to sponsor this podcast, but because of SEC regulations, companies that invest your money are not allowed to use client testimonials, so I couldn't be a user and have them on the podcast. But I've been so impressed by Wealthfront that I've invested a significant amount of my own money, at least for me, in the team and the company itself. So I am an investor and hope to soon use it as a client. Now back to the recommendation. As a Tim Ferriss Show listener, you'll get $15,000 managed for free if you decide to open an account. But just start with seeing the portfolio that they would suggest for you. Take two minutes, fill out their questionnaire at It's fast, it's free. There's no downside that I can think of. Now I do have to read a mandatory disclaimer. Wealthfront Inc. is an SEC-registered investment advisor. Investing in securities involves risks, and there's the possibility of losing money. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Please visit to read their full disclosure. So check it out, guys. This is one of the hottest, most innovative companies coming out of Silicon Valley, and they're killing it. They've become massively popular. Just take a look, see what portfolio they would create for you, and you can use that information however you want. And until next time, thank you for listening.

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