Chris Bosh - How to Reinvent Yourself, The Way and The Power, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Chris Bosh - How to Reinvent Yourself, The Way and The Power, and More | The Tim Ferriss Show".


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Intro (00:00)

This episode is brought to you by Tonal, that's T-O-N-A-L. Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. That's the tagline from their website, folks. So it gives you the one-sentence summary. By eliminating traditional metal weights, Tonal can deliver 200 pounds of resistance in a device smaller than a flat screen TV. It mounts right on your wall with no floor space required. I've had one for a few months now after a number of close friends recommended Tonal to me. And it allows me to do things that I would normally need a huge gym for, like cable, chop and lift, or rotational exercises. And it allows me to do other things that are nearly impossible otherwise, like eccentric loading, which I'll talk about again later. Tonal is precision engineered and designed to be the world's most advanced strength studio and personal trainer. It uses breakthrough technology like adaptive digital weights and AI learning together with the best experts in resistance training so you can get stronger faster. One of my friends who used to be a competitive skier, very high level competitive skier has doubled his strength in many exercises over a period of months. So what are these adaptive digital weights? Tonal's patented digital weight system makes thousands of calculations a second to deliver you a smooth weightlifting experience using their advanced electronic motor technology. And a lot of the buttons are built right into the handles themselves, into the grips. So you don't need to move around and it is extremely easy to use.

Profile And Career Overview Of Guest

Tonal: The Future of Resistance Training (01:24)

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Subscribe! (01:47)

The eccentric, which I mentioned, means that you can set a mode that allows you to say, just as an example, bicep curl, 15 pounds up and then lower automatically 20, 25 pounds down. And it is incredible how much you can get done in just a handful of minutes when you use this type of technology. So check it out, try Tonal, T-O-N-A-L, the world's smartest home gem for 30 days in your home. And if you don't love it, you can return it for a full refund. Visit, T-O-N-A-L, and for a limited time, get $100 off of smart accessories when you use promo code TIM21. Like I'm ready for my first drink at checkout. That's www.tonal, T-O-N-A-L, dot com, promo code TIM21, T-I-M, 21, tonal. Be your strongest.

This episode is brought to you by Theragon. I have two Theragons and they're worth their weight in goal. I've been using them every single day. Whether you're an elite athlete or just a regular person trying to get through your day, muscle pain and muscle tension are real things. That's why I use the Theragon. I use it at night. I use it after workouts. It is a handheld percussive therapy device that releases your deepest muscle tension. For instance, at night, I might use it on the bottom of my feet. It's helped with my plantar fasciitis. I will have my girlfriend use it up and down the middle of my back and I'll use it on her. It's an easy way for us to actually trade massages in effect. You can think of it, in fact, as massagerie invented on some level. Helps with performance, helps with recovery, helps with just getting your back to feel better before bed after you've been sitting for way too many hours. I love this thing. The all-new Gen 4 Theragon has a proprietary brushless motor that is surprisingly quiet. It's easy to use and about as quiet as an electric toothbrush. It's pretty astonishing. You really have to feel the Theragon's signature power amplitude and effectiveness to believe it. It's one of my favorite gadgets in my house at this point. I encourage you to check it out. Try Theragon. That's Thera, T-H-E-R-A-G-U-N. There's no substitute for the Gen 4 Theragon with an OLED screen. That's OLED for those wondering. That's organic light emitting diode screen. Personalized Theragon app. An incredible combination of quiet and power. So go to right now and get your Gen 4 Theragon today. Or you can watch the videos on the site which show you all sorts of different ways to use it. A lot of runner friends of mine use them on their IT bands after long runs. There are a million ways to use it. The Gen 4 Theragons start at just $199. I said I have two. I have the Prime. I also have the Pro which is like the super Cadillac version. My girlfriend loves the soft attachments. On that, so check it out. Go to one more time. Optimal minimal. I did this altitude like in one flat out for a half mile before my hands start to shake. I'm going to let you close my question. Now I just see it in a perfect time. I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over metal and discovered. # Lady Tim Ferriss Show # # Hello boys and girls ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show. I'm nervous. I'll explain why I'm nervous in a minute. My guest, he's a very friendly fellow. He's not trying to make me nervous. His name is Chris Bosch on Twitter @ChrisBosch. He fell in love with basketball at an early age and earned the prestigious Mr. Basketball title while still in high school. That was at Lincoln High School in Dallas, Texas. Not far from where we are sitting in Austin, Texas. In McDonald's, all American Bosch was selected fourth overall by the Toronto Raptors after one year of attending Georgia Tech. By the end of his basketball career, he was an 11 time, that's more fingers than you have folks, 11 time NBA All-Star, two-time champion and the NBA's first global ambassador of basketball. In March of 2019, Bosch's number one jersey was officially retired for the Miami Heat. In addition to his basketball career, Bosch founded the community uplift organization Team Tomorrow in 2010 and regularly speaks to youth about the benefits of reading, coding and leadership. Bosch, his wife Adrian and their five children reside here in Austin, Texas. His new book is Letters to a Young Athlete, which includes a forward by Pat Riley. Chris Bosch can be found in many places online. Twitter has mentioned @ChrisBosch, Instagram @ChrisBosch and Facebook official Chris Bosch, Chris C.B.

The Teams Creed. (06:26)

Welcome to the show. - Appreciate it, man. I'm excited to be here. - I was looking at the copious notes in front of me. I was joking that I feel like the main character, Memento. I don't like to show how the sausage is made, but this is the first in-person interview since COVID for me. Certainly indoors. I'm looking at this bio, and I'm looking and I'm looking and I'm looking, did you ever go to the Olympics? - I went to the Olympics, yes. - I thought so. I may not be the best researcher, but I thought that that and how did things go at the Olympics? - Amazing. - What was the outcome? - The Olympics were one of those things. I had the time of my life there, and when I mean time of my life, at that age, I was right where I was supposed to be. Back in '92 when they constructed the dream team together, I was just a little kid in Hutchison's Texas watching TV. I just thought it was cool that they had basketball in on the summertime, on regular TV, because you couldn't really watch TV. You had to have cable to take in as many games as possible, and I was just one of those kids. Anything basketball I'm taking it in. I remember just that time of the dream team watching them. It was just incredible. I went to Michael Jordan in Magic Johnson and all these guys on the same team that I was trying to comprehend it. - The X-Men. - Yeah, you know what I mean? - Mm-hmm. - That pretty much sparked the obsession. So every Olympics, I would watch the Olympics. We watched gymnastics, we'd watch track and field, and we'd watch anything to do with the Olympics, and getting to take part in Beijing was quite amazing. Just to be there taking part in the opening ceremony, but most importantly getting to have the experience of playing basketball for my country and being able to represent the USA and win a gold medal, I mean, that was everything. - You know that you have a good bio, just for those who didn't pick up on this, when you can omit the Olympic gold medal from your bio. Just as a side note, that doesn't happen all too often. The reason I brought up the Olympics is because I had heard, I think it was, might have been LeBron James who mentioned this, but that while other people were killing time or doing A, B, and C, playing cards, you were trying to teach yourself Spanish. And this is the type of anecdote that came up over and over again, where they're related to craft beer collection and making craft beer. There are these parallel tracks, and I found that very interesting because sometimes it's the side notes that tell a lot of the main story, even though basketball is the most obvious. Is that a myth? Is that true Spanish? Did that mention the picture? - Probably true. I'm surprised that they would remember something like that. You know, to me, that was when you had to have the whole eight CD set. - Oh, yeah. - You had a separate bag for it. - Yeah, you had to have a whole separate carry on. I could see that, and I forgot all about that, actually. But yeah, I mean, language was always something that was just nacking at me, and I just had to do, and godly, back in '08, that would mean I had just started, and I was trying to put two and two together, and I thought it was so cool that Rosetta Stone had a 8 CD packet that you could take with you and download on your computer and all that stuff. - You could buy it at an airport cue. - Yeah, you can remember when that was the thing? - Absolutely. And I thought that was so cool because I'm like, yo, I got that. But I remember taking it with me. I always always had a fascination with language, always trying to pick it up. And believe it or not, it actually getting drafted by Toronto in the beginning years. For some reason, I thought I could learn French. Like, oh, yeah, I'm a learn French. - No problem. - No problem. And I got up there. Everybody speaks English. So it's like, you got to watch TV, and I was trying to watch TV. It just didn't happen, and it didn't make any sense. And so, probably a few months after that, I said, okay, I need to learn Spanish, because there's more Spanish speakers in the world than there are French. So let's start there. And yeah, I started learning Spanish, and that was before I got a tutor. So I started with Rosetta Stone, and that was okay. And then I hired a tutor, and then I ended up making the move to Miami, eventually, which it helped me out quite a bit. Just in the-- - Caiocho. - Caiocho. - You're shot out in Spanish. - Spanish. I'm their son. And they really, really loved it. But just the culture that was down in Miami, it was just really just a perfect fit. And I don't know what it was. I just had to learn languages. It's just one of those things that just calls me communicating with people, talking with people. And really, it was always beneficial, because we would have teammates. I've had three teammates from Spain, two or three teammates from Spain, and you have guys coming from Europe and Africa and South America and stuff like that. So, you want to be able to communicate efficiently with them, and just learning different languages and stuff like that. It's helped me quite a bit. - You can cover a lot of the globe of Spanish.

Andre explained the circumstances surrounding his retirement (11:58)

- Yeah, absolutely. - Absolutely. - Absolutely. - A lot of places. And it's a good beginning, right? That's a good Latin bass. Because then you can be like, "Okay, Portuguese, Italian." - You can hop around. - Yeah, you can hop around pretty easily, but it could happen. - So, I heard you say the words "cayocho" in your, I don't want to say last speech, but when you're Jersey was put up into the rafters. So, for people who don't know, and don't worry, folks, if you don't know anything about basketball, that's me too, because I have little squirrel hands. I'm very small. And during the winters, when basketball was an option, I actually did not get accepted to the JV basketball team, because as the coach put it, I dribbled like a caveman. So, I ended up wrestling. That's going to be my excuse for not knowing much about basketball. - It's wrestling. - But we will come back to the very, very, very, very building blocks of basketball in a moment. But because this is also not explicitly mentioned in your bio, could you explain for people how you came to retire, or how your basketball career came to an end? And then we're going to fill in the in-between. - Yeah, yeah. Okay, so, you're 13. And it was kind of like not a long, drawn-out process, but pretty much what happened is it started with a pulmonary embolism. I ended up having a pulmonary embolism. I had chest pains, back pains, all kind of different pains. Had a collapse left long partially for a while, and I was still playing. I chalked it up to something else hadn't. It wasn't definitely anything life-threatening, and it definitely wasn't anything that would end my season, let alone my career. But I kept playing, and we eventually, you know, it got so bad I went to the hospital. And I had to end up having to get a surgery. I was in the hospital for close to two weeks. It was pretty much like solitary confinement. I didn't really think about it until it was over, but I didn't leave that room for, you know, a good two weeks. I had two tubes in my chest right here on my ribs, on the side of my ribs, right below my chest. And I had to drag that around with me after surgery for a few days until, you know, I got all the leakage out. And that took about a week. And then after that, I was able to recover, was able to come back and play basketball, and then that next year, we found another clock. And so pretty much when you're in a situation with blood clots and stuff like that, if you have a second blood clot, it's almost like you're radioactive.

Andre talks about his blood clot(s) (14:27)

And so that pretty much was it. It was during all-star weekend in Toronto. I was reshaping my game. I'm a three-point shooter now. I'm actually in a three-point competition. I'm looking forward to this, my career being revitalized, and still being on top of my game, still being an all-star, still performing at a highly level. We felt that we had a team good enough to compete for a championship that year. We were second or third in the East. We're ready to go. We're right there in the driver's seat. And we unfortunately found another clot. It was a blood clot in my lower extremities. That was pretty much the end of the season. I continued to try to come back, but it just didn't happen with doctors and things like that, and teams and question marks. And we found out that it's not that much research. The research has been inconclusive about athletes, blood clots and things like that. And we tried, and I did try. I gave it the whole college try to try to come back, but it just proved to be too much. And I have a family. I have children. And I have to start thinking about that. It's like the easy, tough decision to make. You know what's right, but I just love basketball so much. And I just figured this was my time to really prove myself as for the umpteenth time to be an elite player in the world. And you know, it was just that second act or third act rather that didn't happen. And was the cause ultimately, whether definitively or just tentatively concluded to be a hereditary disease or was it?

важадова настолько выдающаяся игра (15:59)

I did test to see if it was hereditary. It's not. I don't have the genetic markers that would mean I just have reoccurring clots. When they said that I was like, okay, well, great. Yeah. It just seemed to have come out of nowhere, especially in a sport where, you know, trauma is pretty, you know, you're getting leg trauma on a nightly basis. But this is just something that I had to move past eventually. And as tough as it was, I had to move on with my life. And you know, eventually figure out how to move past it and do something else. We'll likely come back to that at some point, just psychologically, philosophically, how you've navigated that. But yeah, absolutely. As promised, I want to jump back to Lincoln High School. And we are going to at some point, we I'm using the royal we I'm not I don't mean to embarrass my audience by including you in the questions I might ask about basketball. They're going to be very, very basic. But let me first ask as we kind of segue into this, I just want to read part of this paragraph on Wikipedia because I have something related to ask about it. All right. So the six foot 11 teenager, we didn't mention that yet. Six foot 11 teenager, teenager helped Lincoln High capture in this again, Wikipedia. So feel free to fact check anyway. Class four, a state title is he delivered 23 points and 17 rebounds to go along with nine blocks. Here's the paragraph that really caught my attention. All right, Bosch was subsequently named high school player of the year by basketball America, power a player of the year in Texas, a first team all American by parade, McDonald's and EA sports, a second team all American by USA today and slam magazine and it goes on and on and on and on and on and on. And my question is, what was it like for you at that age to get that amount of visibility and that amount of suppose fame? I mean, this is later you'd be much, much better known, but at that age, I think back to all the terrible decisions that I made in high school, all the terrible decisions I continue to make for a long time. And it was not in any way fueled. I wouldn't have had the opportunities afforded to someone with a tremendous visibility. What was that like as a student in high school? And was there a moment when you were like, oh, wow, okay. Yeah. Okay, things are going to be different. It's like continuously happened like that. The thing with me is I was lucky to find the thing, right? That thing that you love once I found basketball and that's one of the things that I always encouraged, not only the youth, but people in general, find that thing that you love. And you know, people can help you get there, but only you know, and only you know that feeling whether it's sewing, knitting, architecture, it could be anything. But for me, I found basketball pretty quickly. And in my mind, it was all supposed to happen. One of the interesting questions I get is people ask me, well, what else would you be doing? That's kind of a hard question to answer because I didn't do anything else. So it was basketball, video games and friends. And you know, of course, schoolwork. Anything outside of that, it really didn't get too much in my atmosphere. And so with that said, I was always able to go to practice or go to the gym or even play basketball video games or read the newspaper and see what the stats are and who's leading the Eastern Conference or who's leading the league and scoring, rebounding and things of that nature. I never wanted to do anything else. Basketball was it. I grew up watching Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. And of course, all the other stars too, but those two guys in particular, they were always winning. You know, as soon as I found out what basketball was, I knew who Magic Johnson was. And he's success in the 80s, five championships. And then Michael Jordan is there. I watched him pretty much win six live. And then Kobe Bryant comes along and he was the dude that made it real because he was a teenager doing things that Jordan did. So once that started happening, it became more obsessive. Are you familiar with Slam Magazine? I'm not, but I can imagine some just matter, possibly. So Slam Magazine was pretty much like the basketball magazine. And so that was like the internet. You go get your Slam Magazine and I started putting these posters on my wall of Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, all these guys, and just obsessively following the game. But they would also put in these articles with the high school talent. It was all basketball, high school college and pros. And so for me, with all the content I consumed, whether it was movies, whether it was watching Slam Magazine, these things were supposed to happen. So when they started happening, for me, it was more like, okay, cool.

Slam magazine (21:02)

I was still in my bubble. Did you feel in a way because of this extreme focus on basketball that you had identified it as like the path, your path? Yeah. That these things were sort of, I don't want to say ordained to happen, but you were like, if I am, in fact, destined to be on this path, like these are the following markers along that path. And therefore, when you show up yourself in Slam Magazine, you're like, yeah. So when it's in Slam, I'm like, okay, as it was written, full disclosure, I didn't like the Slam article that they made up me.

Awards and the notoriety (21:31)

It's like, I finally got my half page and I'm like, that's the photo they chose. But, you know, yeah, it was kind of those markers, you know, getting those markers pretty much from the ninth grade on. And one of the things that was always interesting, nobody, fun fact, in our yearbook, I wasn't chosen because we had another, we had other good players as well. I wasn't chosen most likely to be in the NBA. So I was never like, Chris, just like you were reading off. You're saying USA, second team is still wins a little bit. Hey, man, that one up is okay, USA today. But with that said, that was just always my mentality. I was not not written off, but in my mind, it was always how it was supposed to happen. And I started growing. And then I guess once that notoriety came for me, it was like, okay, yeah, about time. But once I started getting that notoriety, I wanted to get in the gym more because it was working. You know, so from ninth grade, pretty much on every time I saw success, or if I was in the paper, or if the coach told me, good job or something like that, I wanted more. It was always an emphasis on doing more work, you know, doing more work. And you're like the recipe works. Let's crank out some more piece of pies without a man. It's going pretty good. Let's, yeah, let's make something out of this. And, you know, one of the interesting things and probably one of the things that lit a fire under me was not that, you know, we weren't, we weren't the poorest kids. I would describe my upbringing as lower middle class, but he sat me down or we would drive all the time and ride everywhere. And he told me one day, like I was 12. He said, Hey man, I can't pay for college. So basketball, you love basketball. That's awesome. You can get a scholarship playing basketball. And that's great because I can't pay for college. You kept saying I can't pay for college. And I thought that was fascinating that you could actually, wow, you could go to college and play basketball. Okay.

Sports obsessive at 12 (23:32)

And I started, you know, that began an obsession with schools and mascots and learning the colors on top of all the stats and stuff, you know, so once I really started getting into it, I mean, it just grew and grew and grew. And as it grew, so did the notoriety. So let's talk about making those pizza pies, the recipe that was working. I want to try to tease apart some pieces of that. So you mentioned a name, Kevin Garnett, from pronouncing that correctly. Were there any players you watched and decided to emulate? I had read that KG was one such player. I don't know if that's true. You can't believe everything you read on the internet. Of course. So you can confirm or you can confirm or deny. But were there players who you watched early on in your development as a player or as a player who you decided to emulate for one reason or another?

Long, skinny, and the Big Fundamentals (24:18)

Oh, yeah. Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan. All right. More so KG. But Tim Duncan, of course, too, because he was right down the street and his nickname was The Big Fundamentals and every coach loved the way he played the game. So I would play the power forward, which is, you know, it's kind of a dying position now, but it was called the four and it was cool to be a four, like, oh, man, early 2000s, late 90s, to be a four man. It was awesome. And so it was just kind of looking for guys that look like me. Looked like you in terms of physical dimension. Physical stature or lack thereof. But, you know, it's kind of, you know, growing up playing the game when you're skinny, when your mass hasn't caught up with your bones. Yeah. It's kind of, you know, people kind of be like, ah, you know, you hear all the skinny jokes and you need to eat something and live some weights. And like I am lifting weights, you know, but it was always this preconceived notion or this stigma that you had to have size to play down low. And once I saw KG play, when you say down low, what do you mean? Closer to the room. I see, you know, now the game is more spread. It's more around the three-point line. And the game back then was more people in the paint. So that's how the game was played closer to the basket. A lot more physicality. A lot of banging around, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people were worried for me. But, you know, once I saw Kevin, it was one that highlighted in particular, long and skinny. He was a, what all-star when he was 19, 20 years old. He came straight out of high school in '96. No, '95. And he was long and skinny like me. And one of the things, kind of you were joking and saying how your coach said you handled the ball like a caveman, he could handle the ball. Yeah. That was kind of like a new thing. Not new all the way, but old school coaches would tell me, if you're tall, don't dribble. That was a part of the game. Don't put the ball on the floor. I saw him put the ball on the floor and rebound and blocked shots and played defense. And he had this intensity and tenacity to him the way he played the game. It was just infectious. And, you know, I was like, yo, I want to do that. And so I would imagine going to the park and imagine these moves and imagine myself doing, you know, we visualize every day, man.

The Big Fundamentals (26:50)

And once I saw that, it was over. And I mean, he was cool too. He had to swag, the young guy swag back then, had to look and, you know, had to off-court look in the slam. And it was just amazing to me. And I just wanted, that's all I wanted to do. I wanted to be. I hope that's what I wanted to be. That right there. KG. Not only tall. Ball handling skills. And a lot of people don't know this. A lot of people don't know this, but that was actually my nickname. I never, I haven't told anybody. That was my nickname. They called me KG in high school in summer league. Like KG. That's how bad I wanted to, you know, emulate his game and make it to the NBA. People were calling me KG. All right. So this is the intended segue into all sorts of terminology that I'm going to need your help with. Oh, no, but let's talk about Tim Duncan just for a second because the big fundamentals. It's a big fundamentals, man. That's a cool name. Now, what did the coaches like about his playing style? You said they all loved his playing style. What were the ingredients that they loved about his playing style? He had that stoic demeanor. He was never just, he brought the intensity and he played hard, but it wasn't anything extra. Wasn't flashy. The opposite of flashy. But like we were speaking of playing down low closer to the basket, his moves that he used were very basic, but devastating. Sometimes when you're dealing with younger players that are good at the game, the simplicity can get to them. So they want to show that they're good by doing something fancy. And then usually you're messing it up, right? But Tim, he made his career off of establishing position, basic stuff, establishing position, getting your move technique, you know, playing within the system.

Discussion On The Evolution Of Basketball

Playing within the system (28:37)

And he was unstoppable. I mean, he was MVP of the league and perennial All-Star, you know, and the best for man to ever play the game. You had to put him in that same context if you're trying to be successful. And by playing within the system, do you mean within a coach's prescribed system? Like a set number of plays like basketball is a fast moving game and it can look like guys are just out there, girls are just out there just running around and not really doing much. But there is a method to the madness. A method to the madness. You're supposed to be in a certain position even if it's within the flow of a game. So, you know, when I say system, that's what I mean by that. If he was at the top, he knew exactly what to do. If he's down low, he knew exactly what to do. And that added on top of the talent. Yeah, they could have given it to him and say, "Okay, bring us home, big fella." And that would have worked. But he added so much longevity on his career about playing within the system, in my opinion. And I mean, that made him more dangerous because you have to worry about all of these other things happening. If you're defending him, it's for other people out there that you have to worry about. But then he's hitting you on your body down low, getting the ball. And he was incredibly strong too. Okay, so this is fun for me as a basketball illiterate to begin to sort of piece this together in my own mind because you have the big fundamentals who's playing within the system, not in a negative sense. But meaning he understands how to play with and synergize with the other elements on the team. Absolutely. He is not doing anything fancy for fancy sake. So as we were talking about before we started recording, Morgan Spurlock once told me, "Once he gets fancy, fancy gets broken." That's a good one. That's a good one. And fancy can work, but you better have the fundamentals first. So he's devastating within the system, which is a possibility. And then you have KG Kevin Garnett, who is in some ways violating the expectations of him, not because it's impossible to do so. And just because there isn't much historic president for somebody his size also having the dexterity to be handled the ball really well. Especially in the mid 90s.

Alan is still learning about basketball (30:54)

Which later you would also receive that compliment quite a lot. And I want to go to Power Forward and is it Four Man? You're right. Four. This is the four. This is where I'm really going to embarrass myself. Here we go. So I'm going to make a confession. I was reading through the research. I was reading about your bio. I was watching videos and I thought to myself, "This might as well be in Greek. I can't even begin to imagine what these terms mean half of them." So I went to, this is people are going to love this. So I went to Wikipedia and I looked up basketball. Yeah. I was like, "Let's just start there." And just to be clear, I do watch basketball. I appreciate, I mean I clearly don't follow it very well, but I can appreciate the idea. I can appreciate the athleticism. I understand what a three point shot is. I understand what a jump shot is. You know, layup, slam dunk, etc. Some of these terms I actually do know. But I realized that I did not know the positions whatsoever. And so I just want to read something and then we can dive in. So this is from the Wikipedia entry on basketball folks. Yes, feel free to laugh. Alright. So first of all, if you didn't know this, five players on each side, it turns out. Alright. So the five players on each side fall into five playing positions. The tallest player is usually the center. The second tallest and strongest, the power forward. A slightly shorter but more agile player is the small forward and the shortest players are the best ball handlers or the shooting guard and the point guard who implement the coach's game plan by managing the execution of offense and defensive plays. In parentheses, player positioning. Informally, players may play three on three, two on one on one. And then I'll just add this because I was like, "What? Really?" Invented in 1891 by Canadian American gym teacher James Nysmith or Nysmith, perhaps Nysmith in Springfield, Massachusetts, United States, basketball has evolved to become one of the world's most popular and widely viewed sports. So number one, 1891, not that long ago. Not that long ago. That's crazy. That is insane. That is just, that's like wheels on luggage, really? It took us that long? Wow. And they started with a peach basket. Did you get to that point so back in the day when they made the game? They had to have something to do in the winter time in Massachusetts. So they put the peach basket up there and when you make a basket, they had to get a ladder to climb up and take it out. It wasn't until later that they cut a hole in the peach basket. The climbing up and getting it out not as compelling for television. Yeah. No, it's not. It's like, "Oh, good shot. Okay, let me go." Hold on, hold on. Give me three minutes. Maybe two to three or something like that. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn Jobs. Small business owners have always shown an incredible ability to adapt and innovate. This past year has certainly highlighted many examples. Now, another way you can adapt and innovate in 2021 is by finding the right people to help you grow your business. LinkedIn Jobs makes it possible for you to do exactly that.

Post your job free (33:57)

Get started by posting your job for free to reach LinkedIn's network of more than 740 million professionals. Fill out targeted screening questions to get your role in front of the most qualified candidates with the experience, skills, and motivation you're looking for. Then, with simple filtering and management tools, you can easily review, rate, and home in on your top candidates. LinkedIn Jobs can help you find the right person to help you grow your business. Your first job post is free. Just visit to learn more. That's to post your first job for free. Terms and conditions do apply. I just want to run through this again and then get your commentary just as to how to think about the game. Also understanding the game is not static. How the game has played changes. Especially now. We can take these rules and then we're about to break them. Not to say you have to comment on what I just read because obviously you're much more qualified than the 37 people who put that together. How should we think about the positions of basketball? If I were an alien, which might as well be the case, and I'm looking at this and I understand what I said I understand, but how are the jobs and responsibilities separated out here? How should we think about that? With those positions, with all those positions, with that said, it's been totally full. And each of those positions is numbered, therefore, the power forward. The one, the two, that's like when you get into it. Oh yeah, play the two. That's when you're super cool. You got a man coming at the five. With the shorthand. Damn, at the five. One, two, three. You have your positions. But with that said, the game has changed. So you have one through five. The one is the point guard. The two is the shooting guard. The two is the shooting guard, three, small forward, four, power forward, and the five is the center. What has happened in the last few years is that it's become more of a spread game because mathematically, people that do data eventually said, "Hey, let's shoot more threes." Because these shots, we don't like these shots. We like these shots. Oh, that's interesting. Let's try it at the floor. So is the reason it started interrupting? No, I'm going to do it a lot.

The evolution of basketball (36:08)

So is the reason that the three-point shot has become more and more prominent? That was driven by the Sabre metrics equivalent. It came from the data wonks, not from the player side. There were some players, in particular me and Shane Batier, we would talk about Mount Giffre and Shane Batier. We played together in Miami during the championship years. We would talk about this. We had just got him. He had played his career in Houston and Memphis. And Houston is a guy by the name of Darryl Moore. He's the president for the Sixers in Philadelphia right now. Big stat guy. Love stats. I mean, a number cruncher. And so they had a certain team. And it was a whole culture of stat-driven guys. Shane came from that. And so that's where we would kind of talk and we would talk about threes and contested twos and just different shots that you can take. So if you're within the three-point line, right, or a contested shot is if you're shooting and I just put my hand up, trying to defend you, right, trying to deny you from actually putting two or three points up. And so it turns out- You're pretty good at denying other people. For sure. Yeah. I've seen that link. I've seen this. So like, it came to be that the worst shot in basketball is a contested two, 15 to 18, 19, 20 feet away from the body. Just statistically, when they look at like statistically terrible. And so people took that information and said, "Okay, we need to play faster. We need more points. Big fella. You need to dribble. So now it's- You want everybody to handle it. Interesting, so all of a sudden, that thing that you were not supposed to do is everybody should do it. And it's like, "Wow, you play the game. Everybody should be able to do the basic fundamentals."

The Heatles era (37:54)

But now it's opened up to where now you have guys like, you know, Nicola Yokich. Probably never heard of him. He's a big man that plays in Denver. One of the best players in the league. He's a five man, but he handles the ball. You know- Which is a five man again? The center. Okay, thank you. So to confuse you more, now you have a thing called the point center. Okay. All right.

Old-school and new-school centers (38:19)

That's if your big fella can bring it down. But the evolution of the game, you've had guys like, you know, Magic Johnson, then LeBron, James comes and he's very tall, but he can handle the ball. And you have Ben Simmons, Giannis Antutacoumpo, these guys who are very tall, seven feet, six, eight to seven feet. Ooh, back in the day, you could say, "Okay, hey, you're a four or a center or something else." They've totally transformed the game because they're the guys bringing it up to the floor. And they're getting the team into offense, so they're doing the job of the point guard. So now it's more of the term positionless. When we were playing, when I was playing, it's crazy to say the last decade, early in the 2010s, that became kind of one of our words to say, positionless, disruption. That's the word I'm looking for.

Psychology And Strategy In Sport

Fitness training vs. Hardwork (39:08)

So, you know, basketball has been disrupted. What we thought was the game has been cracked open, and now it's just become not just. It's become a faster pace, longer shots, more athleticism, and not so much the cookie cutter approach to where someone should be on the court because of their size or lack of size. You know, it makes me wonder about adaptability and the adaptability of not just some players, and I'm sure there's also just a selection bias that changes with respect to who is drafted and how, and just the entire feeder system into the NBA, but also coaches, even more so coaches. Like if their entire career has been predicated on a system of a certain type, I mean, I'm not asking you to name names, but have you seen certain coaches who've been really able to adapt to this new style of playing? Others were like, I don't know, I don't get it. Well, the ones who say I don't know, I don't get it, they don't have jobs. Yeah, and they get weeded out quickly. One of the guys, of course, you know, my ex-coach and Eric Spolstra, he, I remember him, he was having the vision of having that positionless type of basketball and that faster pace, which I didn't like at the time because that would mean I would have to play the center as opposed to the power forward, and I didn't want to do that. But just taking advantage of the speed. Why didn't you want to do that? Because I was banging up against guys bigger than me, so usually in the NBA, my playing weight was about 235, 240. If I'm playing the five, I'm banging with guys that are 280, 270, and on a weekly, or nightly instances, man, it gets brutal. But, you know, it did work as far as, you know, using the speed to get around the bigger defenders. Essentially playing, I guess, if you were a fighter, going a class up in weight. Because you're quicker, you can hit him more. Yeah, yeah, right. That was pretty much the philosophy. One of the other guys who have done a, I think, have done a great job is Greg Popovich. He's in San Antonio, he's done a wonderful job because they run the same place. Yeah. They just extend them. Oh, interesting. Could you expand on that? Because I remember watching the last dance. And watching this segment on the Spurs. Yeah. And sort of there, I don't want to say playbook, but sort of systematic approach. And some of the debate around that, right? Because there are other players who are like, "That's not fun to watch." Right?

Passing moves! (41:48)

Like, they should do AV and see instead. Yeah, because it beats you. Not fun. Watch a team get beat, you know? So, can you expand on what you mean by that? They have the same fundamental system, but they expanded it? So, it's kind of the best analogy I could put to it is, you know, I don't want to expose their system, but everybody knows their system. It's predicated, and I might be saying this wrong, but it's two plays that are the base in their system, weak and strong. I can't remember which side of the court. If you're on this side of the court this week, on another side of the court is strong. But that's their base of the offense.

How Shot Selection Is Being Challenged. (42:28)

Like I was saying earlier, the game a few years ago was being played closer to the rim. There was nowhere to go. There's no space, even if you want to get your best player attacking into the paint. If there's eight other people in there, it makes it a little more difficult. Traffic jam. Traffic jam. So, you can take those same plays and basketball and just tell your players, "Hey, all these things from the heat days are going to come into my head, but pace and space." I can't believe I'm saying that. I like it. But that's what, you know, the space was very particular because you want to be able to see what's going on and to attack the rim. Get closer to the rim for easy buckets. All you have to do is, "Hey, if you're in the paint, I want you to get out there. We're going to run the same place, but as opposed to being six feet away from the basket, get 16. I need you in this 12 to 16 area feet right here because usually, bigs, they wanted to keep them. We call them bigs, the fours and the fives, bigs. We want to keep you as close to the basket as possible, but that was clogging it up for the smaller guys to be able to attack. So, you would tell to be able to stop. They want to keep their bigs close to the basket, not to state the obvious, but so that you can receive a pass, jump up, done. Be tall. Rebound. Do everything. Yeah, tall fish. Do all the things that tall people do. Well, if you spread the court, that makes it a little tougher to guard. It takes bodies away from the painted area, you know, that area where the paint is what we call the paint. Hard in the paint. People have wondered what that term refers to. Yeah, exactly. That's my girlfriend told me, "What? My God, I never knew that." It's going hard in the paint, man. You can have the same type of offense, which is nobody is reinventing the wheel here, but what's happened is the game has become faster and more spread. So that more offensive opportunities can happen. You have preemptively developed ball handling skills, which lo and behold, now are this huge asset as the game evolves, but you get put into center where you're basically running into freight trains. It was a part of my whole career. It would happen until I told you. I'm not saying a bad thing, but initially you're like, "I don't want to do it." And now, again, based on just the homework that I've done, I mean, you seem to be also very, very well known as a rebounder. And one of the questions that comes to mind for me is if suddenly the bigs, is that the term, are expanded out further away from the basket, does that not make it harder for you to utilize one of your superpowers with one? In a way, there are certain things that do get taken away. In our case, it was a little easier to make that sacrifice because we had Dwayne and Wade and LeBron. So if it's saying, "Hey, Chris, we need you to get out the paint and spread the floor," yeah, your offensive rebounding opportunities are going to sink quite a bit. But it's better if we get those guys attacking. So you need to be out here and one of the things that kind of developed was having a more sound defenses. Okay, instead of crashing the boards, just get back. Because the defense, especially if the defense gets the rebound, now they're on offense, if they're running, they're a fast team, you want to mitigate their opportunities for easy baskets. So that can be a stat too, which I'm pretty sure we dug up. We did dig up that stat. What's the percentage of you getting an offensive rebound versus not getting a stop because of that? It's a question for you on the stats and maybe this is getting too nerdy, but do all the teams have equal access to data? And it's just a matter of analyzing it more effectively? Yeah. Oh, we can go on and get all the stats right now. Wow, so that's hard. Like everybody has, it's an open book. Right, it's an open. You've done that before and the way you crunch those numbers is not an open book. So everybody gets the data, but that's all it is, is just data. It's just telling you what happened the last game or over the course of the game. It's on the teams to kind of take that and utilize it if they want to. Now, some people do overdo it in my opinion. You can kind of get some people like, "Yeah, you know, it's the way we want to play." Okay, kind of talk. Cool. Your shoes are the left hand first.

Shift in Power. (47:04)

But in my case, there's still some fundamentals to the game that you can't really get around. You mentioned Eric Spolstra, if I'm getting the pronunciation right. Our mutual friend, Ryan Holiday, had given me a bullet which was related to books that Eric had given you. What books did he give you? They come to mind. He would give books every Christmas to the team. So there were quite a few. I read all of them. I was probably the only dude to read all of them. It was kind of funny. Because one time we were cleaning out their lockers and our lockers and said, "You know, somebody won't name who, but somebody grabbed the book from their locker." "Oh, man. Spol, thanks for this Christmas gift."

Geometry of Attack. (47:46)

It's in June blowing dust off of it. But when we first met, I had just signed to Miami. I was always reading. I was always been an avid reader since I was a kid. I just fell into reading books. I would always read books, especially on the road before naps, before games. That was my thing. And he knew that about me. He had heard that about me. Him being a good coach said, "Hey, I'm going to get him this book. I heard he's a reader." He got me outliers by Gladwell. I said, "Okay." You know, he gave it to me and I took it. "Oh, that's cool. I read that book." And he was, he just kind of looked at me like, "What?" And then ever since then, he would, I guess, I hope that I pushed him to do more research in his book buying. But yeah, he would get us books every Christmas. Were there any that stood out to you? One in particular was grit because he used that term all the time. The author slipped in my name. Angela Duckworth. Angela Duckworth. And he got us that book and he would always use these phrases. And so grit was a huge, huge, huge word that he used that I'm sure he still uses to this day. And that book in particular, he bought for the team and I read that one.

Open Mind vs. Close Mind, good books, preparation mindset (49:03)

I do remember that one. And it's another one that's slipping my mind. But I remember specifically, we were having a conversation and it wasn't an easy conversation. Usually when you're a coach, you're having tough conversations 24/7 with your players because everybody wants to ball. I was having one of those conversations like, "Hey, give me the ball." You know? And it was one chapter in particular that was saying push versus pull. Some people you have to push, some people you have to pull. Another chapter that said you have to have an open mindset or a closed mindset. You don't want to close mindset. You want to open mindset. The book will come to me in a minute. I had to challenge him on having an open mindset. Like, "Hey, give me the ball." This is the book that he gave us and I had to use it to try to get my way. But I always, I want to say it's good to great but that's probably not the one. But those are good to greatest one of them. Those books in particular. Like I say, throughout the whole time, throughout the whole stint in Miami, he gifted us books and I'm pretty sure he gifted us the obstacle is the way. I want to say he did. I'm pretty, pretty sure. But I just thought it was fascinating just a coach taking the time to think of his teammates and give them food for thought, something to think about. I always enjoyed that and I would read it and I felt like I was getting inside his mind and the minds of others reading these passages and kind of taking and interpreting it for myself right before the game. It was always great. Well, so you would read right before playing? Oh yeah. Really? It was a funny Pat Riley. He told me, "You like Kareem. Kareem, I'm do as a bar. He would sit there and read the whole time." And a couple of my young players, when I was an old grizzled vet, they told me, "I would just sit there reading it." And you know, I'm oblivious to this stuff. I'm just getting my mind right. This was, I read because this was my relaxing time because it's about to get hectic. Yes, you're not reading like Black Hawk Down. You're reading... Maybe? Maybe. I might. But if I'm reading Black Hawk Down, it's the playoffs. Yeah. You know, it's winning time. But you know, I always tried to give myself that peace of mind. It was like, I felt like it was my time. Being grand and we're in the locker room, it's media everywhere and people, it's like the buzz of an NBA game about to start. And I was sitting there and they told me, "Man, when you close that book, it's like, "All right, he's ready. Let's go!" Yeah, I would read and all the way up until Coach is about to start talking. He's like, "All right, cool. Let's go out and do it." Are there any books that you've reread multiple times that come to mind? I mean, or was it always a new book that you would read? I always read a new book, but the book that I read all the time, which I know that you're a connoisseur of Japanese culture, is the way and the power. Have you heard of that book? No. So it's a book called The Way and the Power. I had a buddy of mine who was a Kent Po Black belt. Many times over, he gifted me that book. It pretty much was breaking down the way of the samurai. And it was two books into one, The Way and the Power. Strategies, the power is more so like strategies for master, distancing, confusion, how to handle conflict, things like that. The way is more so shaping the body and shaping the mind to become a samurai. So the exercise is that one has to do to get to the point to start mastery. Before you can even think about it. You need to be here. One of the passages said, you have to look successfully. You want to be able to look good. So I took all these principles and applied them to basketball.

Values In Sport And Leadership

Motion & No Mind, the book (53:06)

So what they meant by looking good was saying, hey, shirt tucked in, regulation, everything is good to go. My shoes are tied. I don't have to worry about them because I have this not that they won't come loose. So I'm not worried about my shoes while I'm playing. It also says exercise must be vigorous, people need to tell. So you have that strong spirit when you're showing up before you even play. My muscle definition is good. I'm ready to play because we've been working hard. We want to feel that it's filling the spirit before you even start playing the game, working on your key, things like that. The way and the power. The way and the power. I think you'd enjoy it. Cool. And it's got Japanese. They don't translate the words. So for instance, one of the principles is called motion that really resonated. Like no mind. No mind. So you attack with no mind. I don't think about everything we've done all the studying. I filled myself with my opponent and I'm attacking with no mind because I've done all the training. That is super cool. That's you know that. That's motion. So you read that and be like, oh yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Wushin no mind or this character. Shin, which is also koko ro, is also used for heart. But it's like spirit, heart and mind all wrapped into one's culturally super interesting. Yeah, it was very fast. And I mean they don't change. They do not translate because some of them have no translation, right? Yeah. So they have the like motion for instance, it's called motion. And they do English, but the title, the principle is all Japanese.

John Woodenniess (54:52)

So you mentioned the not having the right knots. You're not worried about your shoes. I might be misattributing this. I don't think I am. But even though I know very little about most sports, I'm fascinated by consistent top performers. Because it's like once you're lucky, twice you're good. Like for a decade. Okay. Yeah. So I'm method and I recall reading this story about John Wooden, famed, I guess UCLA coach. You got a book too. And I recall reading a story. I'm sure I'm going to get the details wrong, but when he would meet a bunch of new players, sit down and he'd walk them through time their shoes. And they'd be like, why does this matter? And he'd be like, little things matter because if you mess this up, you're going to get irritated, then you're going to get a blister and then you're not going to be able to move properly and that's going to cost you points and that's going to cost you the game. And I was like, oh, so good, so good. Pyramid of success. Pyramid of success. Pyramid of success by John Wooden. You could check that one out. That pretty much describes that. So he had a pyramid of success and that's one of the myths or stories or whatever. They pretty much owned the 60s and 70s. You know, UCLA basketball. They built it to what it is, you know, historically today. And not only did he get the best players and great players, Abdul Jabbar being one of them, he had the best teams and coming into play for a great coach like that is like, okay, first day of practice. Oh, we're going to do and he's showing them how to put on their socks and shoes, you know, practically and perfectly. And that was the first day of practice.

Leadership (56:35)

So, you know, just imagining the faces. Could you imagine? We bought the old what offense are we going to run? This is going to be the best. And you know, it's, and if you read, there's an actual pyramid that he built and constructed and tie and shoes and socks was at the very bottom of the pyramid of success. So, and then he do this every year. Every year, that would be the first thing that they would go over and then they would build on top of that. And you know, he was testing and tracking and keeping notes. It's not accidental that ended up at the bottom of the pyramid. Of course, of course. But that makes sense, right? If you get a blister, you know, especially back in the old days, everybody's playing in Chuck Taylor. So, that's important, man. You've got a, hey, this is important stuff. And you know, like I was alluding to earlier, that's the challenge with younger players, right? They want to go right to being the master doing the things that, you know, you think that a master is supposed to be doing when we need to do this. First, the basic, basic fundamentals, that way, when it's winning time, we can be healthy. It's kind of like many sayings out there, but you have a bit in the horse in the shoe. If that nail isn't right, then the horse, you know, it's all these catastrophic events that could possibly follow if this one basic thing is not correct. We've spent a lot of time as a leader with other leaders, whether players, iconic players, coaches, whole broad spectrum. Are there any particular lessons or stories related to leadership that stick out to you, the things you saw or absorbed from anyone in particular? My high school coach, Leonard Bishop, he talked to me one time. And as much as I became more social later in life, this is me a 17 years old, 6/11. All the accolades are possible and they can possibly come. He called me in his office and he told me, you don't have to be loud to be a leader. You can lead by example. And you know, we always hear the thing lead by example, right? You will hear that all the time, but what does that even mean, right? And he told me, he explained it to me. He said, you know, you can lead by putting your work in, being one time, being dressed and ready to go. It was time to practice, staying after practice. Your teammates are watching you all the time. So if you do these things and lead by example, never giving up, never quitting, playing hard, these are the things that could be infectious. You don't have to be the guy given the win one for the gipper speech. You can go out there and you can be yourself. And that was so comforting to me. I remember that conversation we were having in this office. I said, wow, okay. That gave me so much more confidence because I could be myself, because on the court, I'm going to yell and scream and do all that stuff all day. I'm not, I wasn't always the player to always talk during the game at that age. But if it's getting hype and screaming and yelling, basketball was always my release to do that. It was comforting to know I could be myself and still bring the leadership qualities to that team. And you know, that always stuck with me. What are some of the things that people don't know or don't see that you think are important about some of the big names you spent time around, whether that knee you can take your pick could be anybody, could be a player, could be a coach, could be an owner, could be anyone at all, somebody not on that list. Because people see you on TV, maybe they followed you for a long time and they maybe they think they know what makes you you. And they might have a few things, right? But they probably have a whole lot of things wrong. And that would also, I assume, be true for many of these big names that you've spent time around. Are there any particular ingredients or special aspects of some of these folks that come to mind that you think are maybe less appreciated or less obvious to people? One being human, humanizing the people that can kind of get lost in translation when you're on TV. So remembering that there's a human element, these are people with families and feelings and emotions.

Work Life Balance. (01:00:49)

And on top of that, I think the work that's being put in to anybody who's elite at their craft or even professional at their craft, I mean, it's in a ridiculous amount of work that's put into even be in the league. Right. You know, and let alone on the short list of people. You know, and even on the short list, man, they're working hard, you know, and I don't know, like the first thing that came to mind when you said that was like, you ever, I was about to say you ever watched basketball game, but I have watched basketball. I have you have watched basketball. So I've watched. I've watched. That's why I understood all the finer details. Yeah. So have you ever watched it when they say, okay, they've got two days off into their next game? Yes. That is not true. You're right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So, you know, aspect that it takes to be able to perform, because usually people just see you on TV and see you doing your thing. Okay. Two days off. No, we do not have two days off. There are no such thing as weekends. There's a weekend. Maybe we play at eight o'clock as opposed to seven 30, like usual. That was the only cursor for me that let me know it was the weekend.

Work Ethic. (01:02:04)

So just trying to remember and you know, it's really for all people who are good at what they do. If you admire that person, remember that there's a human element that's a human. They're probably going through it or maybe not or just whatever comes with life. They're dealing with it and the tremendous amount of work and focus that it takes to be able to do that, you know, to be able to say, Hey, I need to put this to the side to be able to perform. It's happened many times in my career. You know, you go to funerals. You have things you have to fight through and then you have to play and you're still expected to win. You know, so just remembering those, those things, just remembering that when you're watching your favorite player or your favorite author or favorite engineer, whatever that is, the tremendous amount of work and dedication that it takes to get to that level. That's what I would like people to to really remember and understand. I have watched maybe not enough basketball, but I have watched basketball and in fact, at one point, not to say I ever got particularly good at it, but when I was working on a book called The Four Hour Chef, which is very confusingly actually about accelerated learning, which might might explain why there was so much confusion on the part of readers also. But there's a section looking at free throws in basketball. And so I actually practiced quite a bit with the help of a few people, sort of technicians who were trying to help me understand basic principles. And part of the reason for that is that I have been just dazzled by say three point shots because as a someone built like a small Flintstones character myself, right, I watch people who are jumping over the rim and performing these incredible feats of athleticism, I'm like, well, I can't even imagine myself doing that. Like the physics are just not there. Right? My bones never caught up with my masks.

The Transition From The Three Point Shot. (01:04:02)

It's the problem. They're still around. And plus my vertical jumps, like somewhere between half an inch and an inch at best. So those are things I just can't even imagine myself doing. And I think people might be. I'm not saying that this is everyone, but people might be inclined to say, well, six eleven. So of course you can slam a basketball. But it's a lot harder to use that justification when it's a three point shot, right? It's like, no, actually, actually, like you, short guy, yeah, Tim, that's you. I'm talking to you. You should technically like you have the physical capability of doing that. So I would just love to hear, and this might be getting too into the weeds, but how you improved your three point shots, because it's not just repetition in the sense like you can make the same mistake over and over and over again. And I've read about you doing video review, watching games six to eight times, and so on. So I know that you are methodical about reviewing your own performance, but how did you improve something like a three point shot? I didn't start shooting threes consistently until about my third year in Miami, second and third year in Miami. I shot them in Toronto a little bit. But like I said, it still wasn't, we were talking about the game earlier. It wasn't that widely accepted in the game. Big man shooting threes, handful of them. Now you have a handful that don't. We got to Miami and, you know, my position or my responsibility changed. So I wasn't getting the ball closer to the basket anymore. That was my job in Toronto to get the ball as close to the bass as possible. That's what we function. I was pretty good at it. And then the team would go from there and we would distribute and kind of base our game off of, I guess, my success or lack of success down low. I was telling you earlier that in Miami, I had to get out the way. That was my sacrifice in particular with that team so that LeBron and Dee could penetrate and get into the paint and do what their best in the world at doing. As we continue to play, I had Coachman, me and Shane Batty, we would talk all the time about it. And you know, we have discussions with coaches as well. And somebody says something one day, say, "Hey, man, just take a step back. Take one step back. Shoot the same shot." "Just take a step back because I was always an avid worker on my jump shot. I was pretty good. I was lethal from mid-range. That was my thing. I always worked on it and worked on it." So it's the hundreds of thousands or millions of reps that I have shooting the ball. I know I have a touch anyway, it was just extending the range. So it's kind of one of those things that if you're good, short-range and mid-range, you'll practice your long range. You can be pretty good too. But getting those fundamentals of the shooting motion, the arm, snapping your wrist, following through, balance, all these different fundamentals that you learn and what goes into a great shooter, going and seeking that advice, learning from other shooters, always kind of taking in information, but relying on my own information. I think you have to have a good foundation in what you've done already by yourself, even if it's in the weezer in the dark. And then you have hopefully someone that can refine what you already have or say something to you to say, "Hey, man, take a step back. You can shoot threes." And then I started shooting threes and then as I became more consistent, I found more success and it's funny to watch the game now because I'm like, "Man, I could still be playing." I'm 37. I saw myself playing into my 37-38 and I started practicing more threes because I saw where the game was going. I said, "Okay, yeah, there's shooting with more threes. Me and Shane have talked about this. Three is more than two.

Representation In Sports

Shooting (01:08:00)

Okay, I'm going to start shooting more threes." And that, in my last year in the league, I had a higher frequency of three-point shots and I was seeing some success, so that was exciting. But that was like the part of my career that I never really got to crack open. Yeah. With three pointers, when you're watching other players make three-point shots, are there styles dramatically different or are the good three-point shooters do they all have the same ingredients? I think there's the same ingredients. I mean, you're always going to get different flavors, but it's the same ingredients to me. It's always followed through one fluid motion and good balance. If you have those things, you can shoot the ball. And it's kind of funny you learn to shoot free throws. I would always tell people, "I give my friends pointers." So I have a few buddies that, you know, they're producers and songwriters. They always play in rec league games. I won't give away your sauce, dude. Don't worry. I won't give away your position. But I would, I just give them pointers and say, "Hey, man, can you help me with my shot?" And I just look at them, shoot a couple times and give them corrections. And then they see instant success, you know, but that's just, you know, elbow in, follow through one fluid motion. Boom. If you have a better, you just wanted to go straight. And, and this, you know, you can get super deep into it, your factory and all that stuff, but that's when you see it's good to get into the fundamentals of where the ball is supposed to go and how you're supposed to hold it. But one of the things that we always do is just start with one hand shooting. I don't know if they had you doing that right under the basket. This is all day. You get a lot of repetitions in that, build that muscle memory, and then you can start stepping back as you get better. Yeah. The thing that kind of blew my mind also, which I hadn't thought about at all because why would I hadn't had any exposure was I was just missing, missing, missing. I was like, "Oh, for, you know, 20." You can have a close distance.

King James (01:09:56)

One coach, I'm blanking on his name. I don't want to say his rich orbit, but he did an eye dominance test and he's like, "Oh, you're right handed, but you're left eye dominant." And he's like, "Yeah, shift it like an inch over." And then the whole thing changed. I was like, "Wow, wow, that's a thing." Okay. That's pretty good. And, well, maybe someday I'll pick up a basketball again and have to confiscate all photos of the cameras first. So be critical to myself, Steve. Close your eyes. Shoot it. What did it feel like going from, and why did you go from Toronto to Miami? Yeah. Because you were king of the hell. Yeah, it was Mr. Canada. Yeah. You're Mr. Canada. Yeah. You know, it was a tough decision. I loved Toronto and Toronto loved me. And it was great just to be able to compete and put a city or a country on your back and just hope for the best and just go out there and work hard every day. And, you know, I just felt like a pillar of the community. I wanted to do it so bad for Toronto. You eventually get to a point in your career where you have to make a choice. And I went to, you know, I talked to many people. It was a dilemma. I didn't know what to do. And if you're familiar with popular culture or maybe not, that year in 2010, there was a, I was like the first mega free agent. Everybody who was free agents, it was about eight or nine free agents that's like, okay, they're the best eight or nine guys in the world. Right now they're ready to go. Things can and will dramatically change. That was the atmosphere that was coming. And I knew that was coming. And I had tried everything. I tried everything in Toronto. I tried to recruit. I tried to push myself, push my team. And, you know, we weren't even scratching the surface. And one of the tough things dealing with it is seeing the early success of my peers.

You want to play on that stage (01:11:52)

I wanted to win. I've always wanted to win. And I've always wanted to put in the work to be able to do that and compete and hopefully gang glory in that way. I talked to a lot of older players and about what to do about what to do and older gentlemen as well. And the thing that I kept hearing was that you want to play on the stage, man. It's about going forward. It's about competing for a championship. You want to play on that stage. That's the phrase that stuck with me. And I had an opportunity to play with two other great players. And we had known each other since we were teenagers. I've been knowing Brian since we were 16, 17 years old. I knew Dwayne since we were 19, 20 years old. And it just fit. And it was a possibility to be like my heroes. I told you. I idolized Jordan and Kobe. And it was right there to be able. The calling happened. And I wanted to play on that stage that I was talking about. I was telling him from this. I was a little kid. I was watching Michael Jordan. I was like, I distinctly remember. And even, you know, the moment I found out about basketball was because Michael Jordan was playing on TV all the time. I mean, even we would go to Dayton, Ohio. My dad, he'd drive us his crazy 18 hours in a single cab pickup truck. 84 F-150, man. He'd drive us from Dallas to Dayton and drop us off. And like every summer, 91, 92, 93, for sure, the night that we got to my grandma's house, the Bulls will be playing. And it's winning time. You know, I was in the finals. And I understood after a while, you know, after they get the trophy, I'm like, oh, wow, what is this is amazing. And I wanted to do that, man. And, you know, I couldn't even tell you what happened the rest of that summer. I couldn't tell you what happened that night. I couldn't even tell you who was around the TV. I know I was. And I was just taking it all in. And every year, I would watch it and watch it and watch it. And that's all I wanted to do, you know, aspire to do. And at that time, that situation was right there in front of me. It was right there in front of me to take. So I took it. And that was only a chance. You know, it's just a, this is just an opportunity. And I have to even say that you're going to have success, but this is your best chance to go for that right now. Now, did you feel 100% confident when you made that decision and in the weeks and months following or were there any points where you're like, oh, man, oh, yeah, there's always going to be those points, right? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, there's those points you get to those points, but I had gotten used to that by then. And, you know, for whoever's listening, sometimes it's just going to be like that. You're supposed to feel it, right? You're supposed to is a major leap of faith. Yeah. There will be some questions, but I always, that was part of my mental training. Like, yeah, they're just questions. That's okay. Let's just keep going forward logically. It makes sense. It sounds. And then yeah, when the emotions come in and yeah, you get those feelings like, I don't know if I can do this. And we came together in such a way to where it was explosive and pretty infamous. Yeah. You know, so that comes into it as well. Yeah. And that's one of the things we eventually got to with talking with the heat. That self doubt is going to come. It doesn't make you any less of a competitor or a person. It's just a part of the process. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so glad you're mentioning that.

What keeps you up at night (01:15:28)

I remember not too long ago, I was talking to really not on the podcast. This is a private conversation, but an extremely famous investor who from the outside looking in, I'm like, okay, this guy's balls are bigger than my house. Like, I don't know how this guy. I don't know how he does what he does. Like, I would not get a second of sleep. It's just the risks that I perceive him as taking. And we're talking about self doubt and second casting. And he goes, oh, just to be clear, he's like, no matter what, you're going to have some regret. He's like, if you buy something and it does really well, you're going to kick yourself for not having bought enough. Why didn't that buy enough? If you buy something and it does really poorly, you'd be like, why did I invest in that? He's like, oh, he's like, no, either way. He's like, you're going to have second guesses. He's like, just accept that as part of the game. And I was like, oh, it was actually very stress relieving. I was like, oh, yeah, I'll fight myself all this time, man. He's like, oh, OK, that's it. Because a lot of people, they get that and they think something's wrong with them. Yeah. Or they think something's wrong with the situation or they'll pull out. Yeah. And say, hey, no, no, no. I always kind of think of one of my favorite books was Blink. Blink, yeah. By Gladwell. And you know, just talking about the gut decision. It's rushing your gut. Then we talk ourselves out of it. We knew the answer. Yeah. We talk ourselves out. Yeah. Talking yourself out of it, that's a part of it. It's going to happen. But you know, just stay with it. Stay with what you, you know, said you were going to do what you're meant to do. And sometimes it's self-doubt coms. You just got to be like, shh, shh, shh, shh. Hold on. I'm working now. And it's OK to dismiss that voice. Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't mean you're uniquely flawed.

Catch Christian Tupanu off the bench. (01:17:07)

Yeah, it doesn't mean that at all. When you were reviewing footage of yourself, could you give an example of if one comes to mind of when you did that? And then once again, like, how do you watch? Like what are you looking for and what are you seeing? Because someone was asking me as I was preparing for this, like, well, have you watched basketball? And I said, I think I've seen basketball. I'm not sure I've watched it because, for instance, I mean, there are sports I know a lot more about like wrestling or boxing or these things. And I can watch it. And I see things that some of my friends won't see just because I know the technical underpinnings. Absolutely. So when you're watching footage, if you can think of any examples of reviewing your own footage, why did you look at it? And then what were you looking for? What types of things did you pick out? I think naturally every player will start on offense. They want to watch themselves on offense and it can easily turn into just a highlight tape. The Instagram of your own mind. You know what I mean? It was like, you're highlight tape. And I would look for mistakes. I got to the point where I was looking for mistakes. Did you do that consistently? Did it start at a particular point? Was it always? No, not always.

Dirk new Wackez — The greatest 3 point shooter in history. (01:18:22)

Like I said, highlight tape. It started off as highlight tapes. You just want to see yourself doing good, but then you get to a point to where you're looking for the inconsistencies or if there was a game, certain particular game that you were unsuccessful, I'm looking at the whole game to see what exactly, why, what happened, what I can do to get better. What is this team doing? They might have had some success against me, defending me. So what one of the things I would look for? I would look so hard to describe it. I would look for everything all the once you get to the point where you're looking for everything, but the main, main, main things were defense and offense. My positioning on offense, I would always look at my teammates characteristics, seeing what they're doing, see what the scouting report on them is. They might do a certain particular move every single time in this play and you have to watch film to know that. It would help build continuity. And we talk about it too. Like when you're doing that, I want you to zig instead of zag, you know, and instead having those discussions. You watch the video with coaches, with teammates. Everything. By myself, with the team, we always started practice with half an hour of film. Oh, you did? Yeah. 45 to an hour of Spoh felt long-winded. But yeah, we would have an open up. That was game footage. Yeah. Pretty much usually the night before looking at all the mistakes. And then I developed the habit of going home and dissecting other players. So in particular was Dirk Niviskey, 3-point shooter, 7 feet. Late 90s, early 2000s. This is when it was, you know, he was shooting threes back when, you know, it was very taboo, I guess for a big to be doing all that stuff. But he revolutionized the game in that aspect. We lost against them in the 2011 finals. Terrible, terrible tragedy, right? But one thing that inspired me to do, he did these certain particular moves within the system that you couldn't stop it. And I had to figure out what it was he was doing. So I watched a tremendous amount of film on him in particular. But what happened in our losing effort, but what happened was you start seeing, like you're saying, you start seeing other things. So what I started doing was I started compartmentalizing the film and I would say, okay, I'm going to watch what Atlanta, or I'm going to watch what the Lakers are doing on offense. It became this thing of, okay, I've got my offensive system down. I know my game. Now I will watch film on the other team. I just want to get inside the mind of the other team. I want to know all their plays. I want to know their best players, best moves so we can take all those things away. So that's what it became. I would study to take the top two high percentage things away from a team or a person. I have to imagine also that with that amount of footage and also just that amount of time on the court practicing playing, that you're almost certainly absorbing a lot more than you're consciously aware of. For sure. You know what I mean? For sure. Absolutely. And what starts happening is not that it happens on tap, but you can start anticipating what's going to happen on the court. So things will just come to you and be like, I'm going to run over here because I'm going to be wide open or I'm going to crash the boards because I'm going to get a dunk and it happens. Yo, that shit is crazy. But the more it just becomes a part of you, the more that you watch it. And I was having a little second guesses and doubts and stuff the other week. I was talking with my buddy and I said, man, I should have, I could have done more, man. He said, okay, stop. You watch more film than anybody I know. Because film is more of a thing of football term. So it's kind of like the quarterback and football. They have to watch a tremendous amount of film because they have to, it's really anticipation. They have to anticipate.

Focus On Specific Athletes And Teams

What Christian would watch (01:22:13)

They have to look where they're looking and say, okay, this is what they're doing. If you watch enough film, you'll pick up on people's tendencies and you know what they're about to do before they do it because he's lean and a little though subconscious things that you pick up. Yeah, I'll tell the graph. You know, like I say, you would be surprised how much success you have as a defender if you take the best move away. Yeah. Every day I watch film, whether it's the team or the player and be like, okay, take away that for him. He goes right every single time. He's got to go left today. And if he scores 30 points going left, hey, I'm going to tip my hat to him.

Knowing the other team (01:22:48)

But percentage, that's where we would mess with the data. Yeah, for sure. We would play with the numbers. We twist the numbers a little bit. Team wise and individual wise, you develop a repetition for knowing the team's plays. That's the biggest thing, right? That's got to really mess with people. It does. You know, there's two minutes in the fourth quarter and they call it play. It's like he's going right there. A lot of people look at LeBron and be like, oh my God. You know, these were the discussions we were having every day. LeBron James, Shane Batty, Ray Allen, Dwayne Wade, Richard Lewis, myself, we're talking about, I guess, a masterclass every day and how to stop people or, you know, how to take away one leg of the stool. You know, if they beat us with two legs, then hey, man, that's a good job, but probably not. Yeah. Yeah. It's the footage is so important in the fight game too, whether it's a game or MMA, same story, also because I guess like many sports, like if you have person A versus person B and A beats B and B beats C, it doesn't automatically mean that A is going to beat C. Right. For sure. Match up. Yeah. And you know, and styles and another component to that is you might play a team like San Antonio, which we were duking it out with them for a couple of years and they'll run certain plays against certain teams. They have certain set plays against you that they think are successful and you have to crack those codes and figure that out on top of the individual tendencies for a Mona Genovalee, for Tony Parker, for Tim Duncan, for Danny Green. You know, you have to know their individual tendencies on top of the team tendencies.

Letters to a young athletes (01:24:22)

So it can get, it can get pretty deep. You know, like you're saying, getting the weeds, you can be in the weeds. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Mona is such a, he's a sweet guy. Yeah. He's close to hair. He'll dunk on you too. That's well, definitely probably. That was the thing about the Spurs. Maybe like, man, nice guys. Well, you know, he's elbow me in the face a few times. So, you know, the nice guy, you know, gentlemen, the elbow. Yeah. He's a hell of a competitive. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about letters to a young athlete. This is your new book. Why? Books are hard. Books are hard. Yeah. Books are hard. You know, how did this come without? So I was, I was just in a place. I got the news, the unexpected news that I wouldn't be playing anymore. And I was just kind of in a place and I was just not wandering around, but reshuffling the deck. Yeah. You know, that's great. Getting used to being a father in the household, being a husband in the household all the time. I never knew how much time that I had given a basketball. People think things are easy and be like, "Could she just write a book?" I remember people were saying, "You should write a book." Like, "What am I going to write about?" I didn't even know what to even think about, but I just put it to the side and really didn't think too much of it. But always being an avid reader, I guess it was somewhere in the back of my mind. I continued to think about it. And I was in a period, whether I liked it or not, of reflecting. I had never reflected on my career. You're too busy. You're in it. Yeah. I was too busy playing and going to the next thing and going from A to Z. And I found myself just reflecting on the journey and how that child from Hutchins, Texas, was able to actually jump from lily pad to lily pad and make it to the NBA and actually be successful in thinking about those who helped me along my path and all the coaches who set the wise words to me, friends who helped me out, my family, of course, that helped me out, my wife. I was in deep reflection. And then the opportunity came. We just kept talking about it. Kept talking about it. I have agents and they were like, "Yeah, man. Just keep talking about it. You'll think about it." "Yo, you should meet Ryan. We should meet Ryan Holidays." "Oh, yeah. I've read a few of his books, man. That's cool." So we met right down the street here in Austin and we hit it off. We had like a three hour lunch just sitting and talking and shooting the shit and we had a great time. And then I said, "Okay, great. Let's figure this out." And there's no reason to talk to anybody else. He was the first person that we interviewed to help us out. And from then on, we just were bouncing ideas. It took months and months and months just to even figure out, you know, what are we going to write about? But sitting there and being open to thinking of myself in that position of not being a player and thinking of what would be the book that I wanted to read before a game if I were a younger player today. So this is kind of that book that I wanted to read. And you know, one of my favorite parts about books like that is that they always translated. You know, whether that was a whether you're an athlete, whether you're a CEO, a leader, a follower, a librarian, a teacher, we wanted to have those basic principles that apply to everything, whether you're a young athlete or a old athlete. We wanted to have those lessons from myself that have actually helped me and worked. And you know, from people that I admire, tools that have gotten them through challenges. I think that's the biggest thing. There are challenges every day. Everybody goes through challenges. And this is a book to give you those tools to hopefully rise to the occasion when it comes. Yeah. Who are some of the people you admire whose advice you have featured in the book?

Leonard Bishop (01:28:26)

Spill, of course. Eric Spolstra is in there. My coach Leonard Bishop, we talk about some things like that. One of my good friends is Candice Parker. She's in Chicago now getting ready for her season, but she's such a tremendous athlete and a person. And we were having a particular discussion one time just about and really just the female player what they have to go through. We were in Beijing and the whole female team after winning the squad, they have to go to their respective places to go start the season. Not in the States, not home. They're going to Russia. They're going to Spain. From Beijing, China. And they just finished playing a whole summer or they'll finish the season in WNBA and then go right back to it. So they were summer, spring, fall, winter, they're playing year round and they don't even get the credit for that. I was just so inspiring to hear because it's like, "Holly Candice, man, man, it just doesn't stop. It never stops. I know it doesn't stop for me and I know how I feel. How do you feel?" And just hearing her story and how she gets through that. I don't think she does it anymore. I don't think she plays in Europe anymore. But when she was, just hearing those stories and how to actually get through that and be successful and still be the MVP and still compete for a championship in both leagues. That was tremendous. And of course, Pat Riley, he's always been a great motivator and mentor for me. And we had a discussion with him kind of jumping back to the book thing. He was one of those encouragers too. He said, "He should write a book." And he said, "Yeah, you don't have to think about it now, but just think about it. This is what I did when I wrote my book, The Winter Within. I was going through this and, "Yeah, it's a good thing. You should check it out." And this was the casual lunch in Malibu. I really didn't think anything of it, but he's always been that person to really be an example. And he's one of my heroes. And he read the foreword too. It's so cool. He read it really well. It's amazing. Turns out he's a huge writer. He empathized with me quite a bit because his career, like mine, whether it was because of other people's opinion or professionally being able to withstand the athleticism that the new league was coming or whatever, his career just abruptly ended, just like mine. And he is a writer as well. And he told me about his writing experiences. And he's got a few books out there and he's even wrote screenplays and stuff like that. So it gave me the openness to accept other things and say, "Well, okay, just get the wheels turning.

Patrick Riley (01:31:13)

Well, if I were to write a book, what would it be about?" And you know, two and a half year process, man. For you know, two and a half years later, two and a half years. But going and looking within to try and find those stories and those principles to what has made me me. You mentioned Pat a few times. What do you think his superpowers or superpowers? Motivation and excellence. So a lot of people try to be motivating. Yeah. Right? So he's good at it. He's good at it. Why is he good at it? Well, the experience. Yeah. Like what's the experience? He's got the experience. I think when you're in team sports for so long and you've seen every level whether that's good or bad. Yeah. I mean, I think you can kind of start collecting things that work and things that don't work. And you know, in the NBA, you're around each other every day. And I'm sure there have been plenty of things that he said that didn't work. Those get left on the cutting room for you. No, yeah. It's like, yeah, okay, that's okay. That's fine. And you know, but you know, his experience being crickets, okay. We're going to cut that one from the next page. Yeah, they didn't care for that one in practice. So we'll, you know, move on from it. But he's an extensive no taker. I know that. A voracious reader. And you know, talking to people, I think that's one of the biggest things actually having that relationship and having those conversations and sitting down to talk with a person. Because if you come in just trying to be a motivator, why? You know, you have to have a why in things that you do. And sometimes it can backfire. If you're trying too hard to be a motivator, it can come off as phony. And people are very smart and they can pick up one, pick up on those things. Pat, he's always had that open door policy. He's always been one of those guys. You just knock on his door and talk. It can be intimidating. A lot of people don't do it. It can be. It's like going to the principal's office, you know, but he was always been open. I mean, you know, many dinners, lunches, talking dissecting the game and he wants to be great. I think a lot of people can work on their appetite to be great. And that doesn't necessarily mean having a bunch of money or having a bunch of tremendous amount of success. That could be, man, I'm coming here. I'm being consistent. I'm working every day. I'm putting in the work. My mental preparation is good. I'm ready to carry out this task for this goal, having this unified goal and going after it. I think sometimes being as simple as that can be a tremendous help for a lot of people. But with Pat, he once he identifies the goal, I mean, he goes after it passionately and wholeheartedly. And that's when you get into the teeth of it, when you're in the foxhole, that's when the passion comes out. You can't really motivate someone and you just met him or it's going good. That's naturally going. You want to motivate somebody when it's tough and you have to be in there with them suffering. Yeah. The shared, not to be. Not to be too dramatic, but yeah, you got to take part in the sense.

True or False. I read youre a fan of Leonardo da Vinci (01:34:27)

I'm going to suffer and to get over to hunt. This is going to be a strange segue, but I'm going to do it. I'm going to strong on this one. We'll probably go for just a few more questions. True or false, I read you are a fan of Leonardo da Vinci. I am. Okay. Please, please tell me more. Why? How did that come about? I can't remember how it really happened. Of course, everybody knows the Mona Lisa and the famous inventions and things that he had. I got my hands on one of the books about his notebook and I read it. It was amazing. I love Italy. We went to Rome. We took a pretty early in my career around 2007, 2008, somewhere in there. The fascination is already there. I got to see the Colosseum and I was already infatuated with those things and I got to see that. One way or another, I start reading books and I read the biography Walter Isaacson wrote. That's great. It's a good one. It's amazing. I guess you were kind of alluding to learning to learn and pushing the human mind and all that stuff. I was just always fascinated by that. Naturally, he just became a person to emulate. The polymath of polymath. That's the breadth of his fascination. If you look at the entire pie chart, let's just say, of his completed works, or actually I should say his works, and the percentage that were completed versus incomplete. Very high percentage incomplete. That's the perfect segue actually. One could consider a lot of his unfinished work to be a masterpiece. That's how I look at my career. In my opinion, it was unfinished. It's finished, but it was still an unfinished painting in my opinion. That gave me a little confidence. He didn't even finish all his paintings. You guys, he was a finci people. One of the cool things, me and my wife, we love to vacation. Getting to see those things in person. I'm an avid no taker and I doodle and draw and have sketchbooks all over the place. That was a natural connection right there. But then seeing, actually seeing the paintings, we saw the Mona Lisa in person. We saw the Last Supper in person, which they were so nice and gave us a private tour in Milan. When you see it, have you seen it? It's bigger than the size of this wall. People can't see it, but I thought it was like more of an arm. Like a Tim Ferriss arm to arm. Man, that thing is huge. It's the whole side of a building. It was just breathtaking and just got away. But seeing these relics and all of these things that still stood the test of time, and you are still actually here today and just seeing that, it was very inspiring. I was always fascinated in the Renaissance, in the Renaissance period and knowing that the houses were right down the street. So you could go and go study under Michelangelo and be a sculptor. You could go under Da Vinci and be a painter. It's right all right there in this small little space outside of Florence or in Florence or whatever. I can't remember. But just thinking of the density is crazy. Crazy. It showed me that things are possible that you could do. It was just through his observation and extensive note-taking and curiosity. I try to embody those things. And yet these are also these incredible inventions. And part of the reason this is reasonably fresh on the mind is that I've interviewed Walter Isaacson a few times and interviewed him about his Da Vinci book. And some of his inventions were just these prescient, accurate predictors of the future. Like hundreds of years later. And a lot of them were terrible. Like they never would have worked. You would not want to be wearing his mock-up for bird wings and jump off a cliff. And I think that's also very inspiring in a way. Because he had these masterpieces that were masterpieces despite the fact that they were incomplete. Maybe in some ways that makes them even all the more interesting. And he also had misfires. Right? So if Leo is allowed to have both of those, maybe we should be allowed to have them.

Life Beyond Sports

The Rockets History Once Again (01:38:55)

Okay, we could have them. And I'd love to hear your thoughts. And I apologize if you've been asked this a million times. But I think for people listening, your story has many different points that can be inspiring. The one that I think everyone can identify with certainly is points in life when you realize that certain things are within your control and certain things are outside your control. In fact, a lot of things. And so you had this pulmonary embolism. And for reasons or for causes, perhaps partly known, partially unknown, that marked the beginning of an end of a career. Are there any particular books or resources or advice or anything that helped you through that period? I mean, what was it like emotionally when you realized, okay, I can't actually forestall this any longer? Like this is it. It happened in stages. I knew I wasn't going to play again for sure all the way when a supplier by the name of Gordon Hayward, he's still playing to this day. Thank goodness. He dislocated his ankle. I hadn't played the year before. And I still had dreams and aspirations of playing in the NBA. And I mean, that took all the wind out of myself. First game of the season, first five minutes of me watching that season, I was like, let me watch basketball. I'm going to get back into it because I'm playing this season. Everybody's going to pick me up. And that's a dislocated ankle. You know, in that game, in that game, I hadn't watched basketball in close to a year. First game that I watched guy dislocates his ankle. And I mean, whatever motivation that I had instantly went away. And I said, Oh man, that could be me. Oh boy, those workouts just weren't as intense after that. In the midst of figuring these things out. I can't remember what I read, but it was pretty much trusting everything that I read.

Doodles Of Boston (01:40:55)

And all of these books that say, find what you love to do. You got to love it. You got to love it. And it sounds great until you're put in that position. And so I found myself kind of asking, well, what do I love to do basketball? Okay, what else? I had to answer that question. I didn't know anything else. And I had to deal with the preconceived notion that I guess people think I'm smart, which is great. Chris, you'll be fine. You'll figure it out. But in that moment, you still have to figure it out. And so I said, I was finding myself sitting around. Okay, let me answer this question. What else do I love doing? And that's where music came in. And I always wanted to learn how to play an instrument. It was one of those things where I gave up like two or three times in my teens and twenties. So I said, man, you know what? This time I'm going to pick it up and I'm not going to put it down and I'm going to learn how to play. I'm going to learn how to play an instrument. Which instrument? The guitar. I started with the guitar. Let me ask this really naive question. I'm just looking at the size of your hands compared to my hands. Is it harder for you to form chords on a standard guitar? Yeah, it is a little hard. Right. The thing you have to do, but you got to figure it out. I was like, I'm thinking maybe bass. I've recently, which is the same, not core structure, but it's the same string patterns and everything that notes. It's all the same system. So you know, yeah, I've recently gotten into bass in the last few weeks and months. But yeah, I mean, I wanted to learn how to play the guitar, man.

Chris gets into music (01:42:33)

And I said, man, I've always never stopped. Does it make any sense? Of course it doesn't make any sense. But I love it. This is, I love it. I was watching the Rolling Stones was on TV. And I'm playing there. Doesn't need to make sense. I'm going to their life and they're still doing shows. I said, I want to do that. I do that for free. And then I found myself, my wife and I, we were already avid music lovers and stuff like that. We cranked it up a notch. We went to rock festivals, went to Coachella, Glastonbury, Bonnaroo, going to see certain shows, you know, meeting all of these cool musicians and just doing something different. And I mean, it was just, it was amazing. And I started getting magical feelings and those things, that magic that you want to pursue, it didn't make any sense at the time. I just knew it felt good. And so that opened up a new world of possibility to me. And you know, I started making more friends, making great connections. Music is one of those things that really do bring people together. And it's a live element to it. It's a recorded element to it. It's just all these different elements that you could put together or keep separate and just really enjoy it. And so then I found myself, you know, okay, playing the guitar, then I wanted to make beats, then it just went out to full-fledged productions and writing sessions and stuff like that. But continuing to go on and meeting great people. Rico Love is a great friend of mine. Miguel, the artist Miguel is a great friend of mine. Meeting Billy Corbin, meeting collective soul, having beers after their show, you know, and just hanging out. There's some Atlanta Georgia boys, you know, we're connecting with so many different people in so many different ways was really, really cool. And especially here in Austin, it's been great. You know, Gary Clark, we met him a few years ago, but just I was just so enamored by how they could play the guitar, man.

Finding meaning during tough times (01:44:27)

And just do all these cool things. So that's just really been a thing that has actually turned into something but has been great for the spirit. What would you, aside from trying to find the thing that lights you up inside, because I'm sure you had some dark moments too. I would imagine. For sure. For someone who's going through an experience like that, maybe there's something they had planned that they no longer can pursue. Yeah. Maybe they had a career or a relationship or something and now they just feel this void and they just feel directionless, not necessarily hopeless, but just really unsure of what to do. What advice might you give them or what would you say to them? Be open. I spoke with a friend. I won't name who they are. I was having one of those days, right? Just in the dumps. I was taking this trip and I was doing some work and this particular person was running a network and running a company, the CEO. And you know, I was feeling all bad and stuff and I said, man, you know, how do you know it's a brilliant person? I want to get some insight. Everything that person said was, well, I was a child with cancer and when you really do go through a situation to where you're going to wear hair or no hair, you truly do find out that it is up on you to make a choice to enjoy it or be happy or attempt to get yourself going. And when they said that, I was like, man, all these problems that I feel that I have and this person just told me they were a kid with cancer. So that kind of made me realize like, okay, put everything to the side. This person just told me that it is really our choice. Not necessarily that bad things won't happen or life won't though curve balls or things happen or you won't be in a rut. It's just that when you're in this rut, it's on you to get out of it and to actually have confidence. So, people can help you, but one of the things that we always said in basketball, if you were like on a shitty team, one of the worst experiences to have because you know, you're losing and then you're feeling bad inside, but then you're making money and it's good money and people are like, oh, you're fine. It's like this paradox, but like, we always used to say, hey, look, nobody's coming through that door. If you're waiting on that perfect person or that perfect utopian moment to come, it's not. You got to start putting the work in now. Pick yourself up, self motivation, right? Yeah. You got to get yourself going and then you'd be surprised. Things start happening. Yeah. But you can't sit in the bed feeling sorry for yourself. That's like one of the toughest things to do. Sorry with all these basketball analogies, but I think it's a, you know, five game losing streak. One of the hardest things to do is to bounce back and actually win a game because it's hard. Start watching basketball, watch a bad team play. They have a chance to win the game. They're in the game. One bad thing will happen and they just, oh, the body language, the shoulder starts slouching. People start, no, no, no, keep playing.

Problem solution (01:47:48)

Yeah. Okay. So there's a couple of things that hurt or there's a couple of things that, hell, it sucks. Let's get that out the way. It sucks right now, but we're not going to know pity parties. You know that, that becomes being old very fast and you do see success. That's not going to take away the challenges. You know, you're still going to be, you're still going to be faced with challenges daily. But if you get into the mindset to where you say, okay, hey, problem solution, look in the mirror. What am I going to do right now? Because I'm going to stop feeling sorry for myself. This is so easy, right? You could just, oh, man, you know, the coach, oh, they did it. Oh, man. After a while, it gets old. And I assume if someone's listening to this now, even if they're in a place where they don't want to be in frustrated with it, it's a daily ground, but it's not going to happen tomorrow. You got to make that decision, start focusing, start visualizing and start working toward that goal and know just because you had this moment of thought and say, okay, I'm going for it. The seas aren't going to part. You know, it's just not going to just open up for you and say, okay, Chris, great. Yeah, that's what you wanted. Why did you ask? It's not like that. You've got to be consistent, be diligent and just know that the challenge is going to come and when these things arise again, I'm not going to feel sorry for myself. We're going to win this game even when it gets hard and then we're going to do it again and again and again and again. And just get to that point. That's a great story. When you had that conversation with this, I guess, network exec, do you recall what the next thing was that you did when you were like, oh, wow, okay, that puts things in perspective? I stopped complaining. I knew I was complaining, but I heard myself. I heard my language. Sometimes you got to listen to yourself. This was me after me promising myself that I wouldn't complain after I came from Africa. I went to Africa. We went to Joe Berg. We went out to Clipton and Soweto and saw real poverty. I went to India, speaking of being the NBA Global Ambassador. We went to places and we have seen real poverty that make the projects look like a five-star hotel. And so when I saw those things and you take in all that stuff, it's like, man, it's heavy. What have I been complaining about? I haven't been complaining. I've been complaining a little bit. When she said that, I instantly stopped feeling sorry for myself and said, okay, at the end of the day, 13 years in the league, and I've got a shot at doing something else. That's all I need. I don't need the, like I say, that leader to come by and say, "Oh, Chris, let me tell you something. Kick the door in and just get me going." That right there was kind of like, "Oh, man, I felt bad for even having a lot of people not weakness, not points of weakness, but just like having those thoughts and just saying, like, what do people say when you think you've got problems where everybody put their problems on the table, you'll pick yours back up real quick." I've never heard that. That's great. It's kind of, that's pretty much what it was. Like, okay, I got some problems with man. I'll take those back. Yeah. When they're back, how you feeling? Fine. I'm doing great. I'm so glad that they were having this conversation. It's so easy to complain. And I feel like I've been complaining a lot in the last handful of weeks and it's socially reinforced. You will find somebody, if you go searching, who's going to encourage you? Oh, yeah. You're right to feel that way. Oh, that's terrible. And then how do you feel, right? How do you feel when you're doing it? That's for people listening too, you know, and make you look at who's around you a little more. Yeah. It's because it's like, yeah, yeah, it's tough and it sucks. And it's been like that for years, but aren't you tired of it? You're sick and tired of being sick and tired, right? After a while, it's not going to change. These habits that you're building, you got to think about the habits that you're building. And I tell people too, be conscious of what you're consuming, especially nowadays. I tell my kids that. I try to, you know, even for myself, you know, just with everything you can consume, it's a lot of BS, you know, so just be aware of what you're putting into your mind, what you're thinking about. And yeah, it burns like a feather, right? If you're, you find yourself complaining and yeah, people are SAAP, you can have pity party, but after a while, they're going to get tired of you complaining. They're going to complain about you. So it just, you just get to a point where it's like, okay, hey man, let's talk about solutions. Yeah.

Finding solutions (01:52:23)

You know, let's talk about solutions. How do we get out of this rut or how do we find that next thing to do? For me, music and writing, I would have looked at you like you had eight heads. Five, six years ago. Music maybe five years ago, not so much writing. Yeah. I always did them, but just thinking of that, I wouldn't have even come close at that time. But going through challenges and situations, you want to, you want to come out better, right? You don't want to still behold up talking about what could have been or why it didn't happen. That gets old after a while. So ladies and gentlemen, if Chris Bosch can have these days, you can too, but it's about what you actually do in response to those days. And you know, at a long time ago, you're inspiring me. I'm going to do it again. I read a short book. It was called the 21 Day No Complaint Experiment written by a pastor. Will Bowman, I think is the name. And it's just a commitment to not complain for 21 days. I like that. And it had a huge impact. I got to read that. And I'm going to do that because like you said, if you were to put your problems on the table with even a small subset of humankind, you'd be like, I'll take this back. Thanks. Thanks. No, nobody take my problem cookies. I want those. I'm going home with those. And it really does make a tremendous difference. And I think that letters to a young athlete is going to do a lot of good. I'm very excited about this. I am thrilled you took the time to do it properly. Two and a half years when I hear people like, yeah, we started writing three months later. We were down. I was like, don't send it to me. And hey, look, would I have preferred it to be one, one and a half? Sure. We had the intention, but you know, the process is the process. The process is the process. You go through, you know, and we've been hands on from the jump. This has been so special to me. But it's like I was joking the other day. You said in writing about a book, overcoming obstacles, we had to overcome obstacles writing the book. You know, that was a good one, man. And it was such a tremendous process. And I think a lot of people will really, really be able to take something for themselves, no matter what they do. They'll be able to take something for themselves because, you know, it's been a team effort through and through. It's been one of those things to where I'm talking about people that I admire and situations that I admire from my own life that was like, oh, yeah, in the moment you're just doing it, but then reflecting on it, it's like, oh, yeah, that conversation that I had with my coach back when I was 21, Matt would set off these ripple effects. That's set off the ripple effects. I wouldn't freak out. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it makes me happy. You took the time. I remember somebody said to me at one point, I was struggling as I do with any writing and I was struggling through a book and they said, oh, you're 90% done. Congratulations. You only have 50% left. Like, wait a minute. They're like, oh, trust me. And they're like, yeah, you'll see, you'll see what I mean. Yeah. No, that's great. And I think, you know, athlete is an interesting term and letters to a young athlete, you might even say letters to a young competitor and people might be inclined to say, well, I'm not a competitor. And I would say you are, even if you don't compete with other people, there's a competition. Like we've been discussing between your lesser selves and your better selves. Absolutely. That you go. Yeah. We're all in the game. Everybody's in there. And you know, as, you know, like I said, giving you the tools and teamwork is definitely one of, uh, one of the main tools, of course, mental preparation, self motivation, getting yourself ready and going, but teamwork and working with others, learning how to coexist with people going after that goal.

Leadership And Challenges In Sports

Whats up with basketball in America? (01:56:09)

Definitely. It's a huge, huge, important thing that we definitely definitely talk about because going to Miami playing with the best two players in the world. So my ego had to take a back seat. I came in thinking I was going to be the number one scorer in the league, definitely in Miami, only because I said, man, they can score, but I can score too. And they're going to be making plays for me. That was in my head, but the math doesn't work. You know, you're going to have to learn how to coexist within this structure, being the third peg on the stool. Nothing wrong with that, but fighting that notion that that actually means something, putting the team before yourself and, you know, making those tough decisions that you have to make because it doesn't feel good, but the team is done. So hey, Chris, you need to play at the center guard these bigger dudes because you're the only one that can do it. Rebound the ball and get it to these guys like, no, no, no, I want to score. You know, you give me the ball. No, no, no, Spoke, you must have it wrong. You get me the ball and everybody else get out the way. That's how we did it. And it's not necessarily the case if you want to be successful. So that's like always kind of a thing that always took very importantly and took the heart. If you're going after a championship or legacy or greatness or something like that and you're part of a team, the team has to come before the person and what's best for the team, you know, might not be best for your ego sometimes and you have to be okay with that. You got to tell your ego, take the backseat, let yourself take the backseat. We're going to be champions, man. Yeah. Sometimes that's what it takes. Yeah, man.

Where do you stand in the advice Phil Jackson gave you and Kobe? (01:58:03)

If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together and get there, man. Chris Bosch at Chris Bosch on Twitter. Also on Instagram at Chris Bosch. official Chris Bosch on Facebook. The new book is Letters to a Young Athlete. I've really enjoyed this conversation. It's so nice to meet you. Yeah, staying here and nice meeting you man. That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to say to the audience, any other requests, comments, questions, anything you'd like to add before we wrap up? Oh man, I just love starting a discussion. I think that's what the future is really going to be about.

What do you want to convey about leadership in sports and work? (01:58:39)

So I want this book to be a discussion and really, you know, all books and just be a civilized discussion and where we can see where each other's coming from. Because I think nowadays, you know, things get polarized and kind of either taking out a context or being too much. I want everyone to know how important this book is to me. But with that said, we want to start the conversation of how to be great, breaking those things down. How to constantly get over those challenges like I keep alluding to that are coming and to have those open discussions and just continue to push the boundaries in a positive, great way. But let everybody know they can do it.

What character traits do you have that Have Help You Successfully Deal With Celebrity (01:59:18)

If they have that thing, do it, don't wait and you can do it. Look in the mirror, don't complain. Problems solution, look in the mirror.

And The Challenges It Presents? (01:59:28)

Problems solution, Letters to a Young Athlete is the book and I'm excited for you. It's a big accomplishment. I know how much effort goes into it. And I'm thrilled that people will get to learn also the principles, right? You'll have stories, but also the principles that you've applied, not just to one thing, but to many things, even though you are best known for one thing. And I think, you know, in a way, the obstacles that you've faced within the context of a book like this are a tremendous gift because there are battles everyone is fighting that we know nothing about. You've had to face and overcome obstacles yourself. And I think that is incredibly humanizing also. Absolutely. And that's what, you know, I like to call it pillars of getting through things, you know, the pillars of success as kind of like my work entitled for it, you know, is perseverance, no preparation, rising to the occasion, teamwork is a huge of a visualization is a huge because I feel in my life, everything that's happened, I always saw it in my mind's eye first and did hours and hours and hours of imagining. And you know, it's time to put in the work after that. And you can't just sit there and dream about it. You just got to go out there and do it. And you know, work, be calculated. Of course, you just can't go out there with no gold and just run around me like a chicken with your head cut off. But you can't identify that goal and then work backwards and say, okay, what do I need to do and work hard at those things?

A Principle You Can Teach: Repetition. (02:00:56)

Yeah. One step at a time. Chris, thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you, man. I'm so glad to be on here. It's great. I've been listening for years and it's great to be on here. Oh, really cool. I hope it fits. Yeah, it does fit.


Outro (02:01:11)

It's great to spend some time together. And for everybody listening, we will have links to everything, including letters to a two young athlete in the show notes at, easy to find. And until next time, thank you. Be tuning in. Hey, guys. This is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is 5 Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little more soul of fun for the weekend? The 5 Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to That's I'll spell it out and just drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Theragon. I have two Theragons and they are worth their weight and goal of using them every single day. If you're a leader and a lead athlete or just a regular person trying to get through your day, muscle pain and muscle tension are real things. That's why I use the Theragon. I use it at night. I use it after workouts. It is a handheld percussive therapy device that releases your deepest muscle tension. So for instance, at night I might use it on the bottom of my feet.

Therconn (02:02:55)

It's helped with my plantar fasciitis. I will have my girlfriend use it up and down the middle of my back and I'll use it on her. It's an easy way for us to actually trade massages in effect. And you can think of it in fact as massagerie invented on some level. Helps with performance, helps with recovery, helps with just getting your back to feel better before bed after you've been sitting for way too many hours. I love this. And the all new Gen 4 Theragon has a proprietary brushless motor that is surprisingly quiet. It's easy to use. And about as quiet as an electric toothbrush. It's pretty astonishing. You really have to feel the Theragon's signature power amplitude and effectiveness to believe it. It's one of my favorite gadgets in my house at this point. So I encourage you to check it out. Try Theragon. That's Thera T-H-E-R-A-G-U-N. There's no substitute for the Gen 4 Theragon with an OLED screen. That's OLED ED for those wondering. That's organic light emitting diode screen. Personalized Theragon app. An incredible combination of quiet power. So go to right now and get your Gen 4 Theragon today. Or you can watch the videos on the site which show you all sorts of different ways to use it. A lot of runner friends of mine use them on their IT bands after long runs. There are a million ways to use it. And the Gen 4 Theragons start at just $199. I said I have two. I have the Prime and I also have the Pro which is a super Cadillac version. My girlfriend loves these soft attachments. On that, so check it out. Go to

Promotion Of Tonal

TONAL (02:04:34)

This episode is brought to you by Tonal. That's T-O-N-A-L. Tonal is the world's most intelligent home gym and personal trainer. That's the tagline from their website folks. So it gives you the one set in summary. By eliminating traditional metal weights, Tonal can deliver 200 pounds of resistance in a device smaller than a flat screen TV. It mounts right on your wall with no floor space required. I've had one for a few months now after a number of close friends recommended Tonal to me. And it allows me to do things that I would normally need a huge gym for. Like cable, chop and lift, or rotational exercises. And it allows me to do other things that are nearly impossible otherwise. Like eccentric loading which I'll talk about again later. Tonal is precision engineered and designed to be the world's most advanced strength studio and personal trainer. It uses breakthrough technology like adaptive digital weights and AI learning together with the best experts in resistance training so you can get stronger and faster. One of my friends who used to be a competitive skier, very high level competitive skier, has doubled his strength in many exercises over a period of months. So what are these adaptive digital weights? Tonal's patented digital weight system makes thousands of calculations a second to deliver you a smooth weightlifting experience using their advanced electronic motor technology. And a lot of the buttons are built right into the handles themselves, into the grips. So you don't need to move around and it is extremely easy to use. Tonal lets you adjust the weight in one pound increments and you can do it on the fly. Something that was never possible with traditional dumbbells. It's easy to dial weights up and down with just the touch of a button. Tonal also has built in dynamic weight modes like chains, eccentric and their patent pending smart flex technology. So you can experiment with more ways to get stronger, faster without the hassle and extra equipment like chains and bands. The eccentric, which I mentioned, means that you can set a mode that allows you to say just as an example bicep curl 15 pounds up and then lower automatically 20, 25 pounds down. And it is incredible how much you can get done in just a handful of minutes when you use this type of technology. So check it out. Try Tonal, T-O-N-A-L, the world's smartest home gym for 30 days in your home. And if you don't love it, you can return it for a full refund. Visit,, and for a limited time get $100 off of smart accessories when you use promo code TIM21. Like I'm ready for my first drink at checkout. That's, promo code TIM21, T-I-M, 21, tonal. Be your strongest.

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