Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson on How to Catalyze Change with Awe and Wonder | The Tim Ferriss Show | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson on How to Catalyze Change with Awe and Wonder | The Tim Ferriss Show".

1970-01-01T04:59:58.000Z

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Introduction

Intro (00:00)

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Guest Interview And Discussions

Introducing Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson. (04:31)

What if I did the algorithm? I'm a cybernetic organism living tissue over a metal anthoscour. Me too, Paris show. Well, hello ladies and germs, boys and girls. Damas y cabieros. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. I'm going to keep this intro short in terms of my normal preamble. My guest today is Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson. And Dr. Ayanna Elizabeth Johnson is a marine biologist, policy expert, writer and Brooklyn native.


Why Dr. Johnson has taken some much-needed time off from podcasts and interviews. (05:06)

She is co-founder of Urban Ocean Lab, a think tank for coastal cities and co-creator of the Spotify/Gimlet podcast, How to Save a Planet on Climate Solutions, which I started listening to this past summer every morning as I drove to the gym and I became hooked on it for a bunch of reasons that are not immediately obvious, I suppose. She co-edited the best-selling climate anthology, All We Can Save, and co-founded the All We Can Save project. Recently, she co-authored the Blue New Deal, a roadmap for including the ocean and climate policy. Previously, she was executive director of the Weight Institute, developed policy at the EPA and NOAA and taught as an adjunct professor at New York University. Dr. Johnson earned a BA in environmental science and public policy from Harvard University and a PhD in marine biology from Scripps Institution of Oceanography. She publishes widely, including in the New York Times, The Washington Post and Scientific American. She's on the 2021 Time 100 Next List and was named one of L's 27 Women Leading the Charge to Protect Our Environment. Outside magazine called her "the climate leader we need" and "you can find her online" at ionaalisabeth.com on Twitter @ayanaaliza, that's E-L-I-Z-A on Instagram @ayanaaliza as well. UrbanOceanLab can be found at urbanoceanlab.org. The All We Can Save project can be found at allwecansave.earth. We'll link to all the social handles for all of these things in the show notes at timb.log/podcast. And so now, without further ado, please enjoy my wide-ranging conversation with Dr. Ayanaalisabeth Johnson. I learned a lot. I had a great time, laughed even a few times. Hopefully, make you laugh a few times and please enjoy. I'm sort of stepping back from doing public stuff for the year. As you know, I sort of like pushed this off for quite some time.


Canceling public engagements to process (and gather back) your energy. (07:07)

So it's going to be, this will be one of the few things that I do this year, so no pressure, but just fucking nail it on the questions. Well, let's just dig into that first. So why aren't you doing public-facing stuff and why did you say yes to this? The short answer is I'm writing a book, which means you need, as you know, long stretches of uninterrupted time ideally to actually think about really interesting ways to frame things. And there's a lot of research involved in that project. And I'm trying to adhere more and more to this, the philosophy of essentialism, which I'm sure you're familiar with, which is a process. So that's sort of like the professional reason. I'm focused on this one big project this year. But the personal reason is, you know that sort of cultural perspective that when you have your photograph taken, it steals a part of your soul. That sort of traditional understanding in a bunch of different cultures. And that's how I've felt after the last two years. Having like my name and my face and my voice everywhere, I just feel like I need to gather the pieces back up. And as an introvert, I'm just done with the world. How long can this pandemic last? I would like to go out for a drink at a bar alone and watch other people and like bring a book. But I've been like weirdly fine being isolated. So that's the other piece of that. Just wanting to regather my energy and have time to read and think some new thoughts. You know, you get into this, of like saying the same things over again if you don't have time to really process new information and figure out what you think about it all. Yeah, absolutely. Sounds like a period of soul retrieval, as some might say, gathering the pieces. I actually was just thinking, as you said, that when you mentioned repeating yourself thinking of a friend of mine named Josh Waitzkin, who long ago, I was asking for advice around speaking engagements, because it was all new to me. I didn't expect, no one expected the first book to do anything. And suddenly I was kind of foisted into this speaking world. And he described to me why he stopped and that was he was repeating the same things and it started to become calcified and he started to become inflexible. He didn't phrase it that way, but he recognized that he didn't have the... He didn't have the... He didn't have the room or the space to develop his thinking any further on the topics he was speaking on. I think a period of hibernation is good for everyone, right? Yeah. And I'm trying to think of it that way. So we'll see. And so why do you say this to this? Because I have a group text, the consensus opinion of which is always correct, and I asked the group text and they said I should do this. Oh, wow. Thank you group of the group text. Yeah. We've got a finance executive, a journalist, and a Hollywood executive and me in the group text. So whatever you need, we've got the answer. So how did this group text, how did this group assemble? I don't know if I have permission to tell the story of the magical group text. To be continued, let's talk about marine biology. If you're open to it, I'm interested in my opinion.


Emily's path to becoming a marine biologistou (10:40)

A little known fact, I want to be a marine biologist until I was 15 or so. I grew up out near Montauk as a townie, way out by the Hamptons. And my mom took me to meet Frank Lundice at one point, who was the inspiration for the crazy shark hunter in Jaws, Quint. And he had the record for the largest great white caught on Rotten Real. So my interest started with sharks quickly then expanded with this textbook called "Fishes of the World." And I just read that all the way through my younger elementary school years. I would spend my recesses reading this book. I just turn around to see if I have it on my bookshop. I have the diversity of fishes and coral reef fishes text books, but not fishes of the world. Sorry. Not fishes of the world. So I want to know, and I'm sure you've spoken about this before, but I think for setting the table, it's going to be helpful. How did you first get bitten by the buck? And was there a specific creature that catalyzed that? I think a lot of kids who have a positive experience with the ocean at a young age totally fall for it, head over heels. It's amazing. Whatever you like, it's in there, doing something weird. Whether it's sharks or for me, it was just the coral reef ecosystem existing to see through the bottom of a glass bottom boat, this whole other thing happening. Just blew my mind. And I had follow-up questions. And so it all started for me when I was five on this, I guess that's the magic age when you're supposed to choose what you want to be when you grow up. And it's a really common dream job, marine biologist. And I guess I'm just like super, super stubborn, and I'm like, "No, really." But my parents took me to Key West Florida. It was, I think, one of two family vacations we ever went on. We were, you know, a working-class family. We weren't jetting around. And I learned to swim that summer, and I went on a glass bottom boat ride, and I saw a coral reef for the first time, and all these crazy colorful fish, and just this whole other thing going on. And then we went to the aquarium, and you know, they have these, like, touch tanks. And they had starfish and sea urchins, and I got to hold a sea urchin in the palm of my hand, and they have tube feet on the bottom. They have, like, hundreds of tubes coming out of the bottom of this, like, hard-shelled, spiny thing. And that's how they crawl across the palm of your hand, or a reef. And I was just completely blown away by this, like, purple, spine-waving, foot-section scenario that was happening, these, like, aliens that actually live on our planet. And then looking in a tank and seeing an electric eel do its thing, I was like, "What is this called? This is my job now." When did you realize that you had what it took to make it a career path, or that you could find the support to make it a career path? Does that make sense? Because I had the dream, but I just, I had no exposure, or maybe not enough stubbornness, and then I ended up shifting to other things. I think you probably have enough stubbornness. I don't think that was the thing. Yeah, maybe not enough directional stubbornness. Like so many people, I had a lot of dream jobs. That was just the first one. After that, I was learning about the Civil Rights Movement when I was, you know, around 10 years old, and I decided I wanted to be very specific dream job. The lawyer that got the next Martin Luther King out of jail. You don't die, but you're super helpful. And I was like, "That's the thing I can do, right? I can defend the good guys." And then I went backpacking for the first time and was like, "Oh, park ranger is a job? You could get paid to hang out in the forest. Sign me up, obviously, best job." And then in college, I was majoring in environmental science and public policy, and I thought, "Oh, maybe I will do environmental policy or environmental law." And I took environmental law as an undergrad in the law school, and I studied abroad in the Caribbean. I sort of nailed this. I studied abroad in Turks and Caicos. It's a tough job, but somebody's going to do it. It's a super tough job. I mean, I had to memorize the Latin name of every coral reef species, right? We had tests underwater with like a slate we were to write down everything they point at. And actually one of the things they pointed at, I was like, "I'm sorry, what are you pointing at?" And they were like, "Over there." And I was like, "I don't see it. It's like just in the water." I surface, and I'm like, "I want to get a good grade on this test." But I studied so hard, I can't tell what you're pointing at. And he's like, "The thing that I'm not going to swim closer to because it might not be a good idea." And it was a reef shark. So like a reef shark on my quiz that day. But we were studying like not just the ecology, but also the economics of fisheries management and the policy piece. And I realized that it was this really cool puzzle. That ocean conservation is actually not just science. It's also economics and policy and culture and communications and protection. It is the park ranger and the lawyer and all that and one. I basically figured out how to have all my dream jobs at once. So I didn't say that I necessarily had a moment when I realized that I could be a marine biologist. I had a moment when I realized I could get a PhD in marine biology and then never do any research again. But no enough to be able to understand the papers, to be able to translate that science into policy making, and to be able to be hopefully useful as a communicator on these topics as well. So you just nothing but net. You figured out the Voltron of career paths. He's like Luke Skywalker shooting that Death Star at the very end. He's like, "Well, I choose." And it's weird. People ask me, "What do you do?" And I'm like, "I don't know. I write things and I read things and I talk about stuff and try to get laws changed and whatever the thing is." So to me, it's about projects and collaborations as opposed to research per se, which is a bummer because hanging out underwater is pretty cool too. I have to ask just because I've never come across anyone quite like you and I've interviewed a lot of people.


Katharine's 'superpowers' absorbed from her parents! (17:19)

And I will say just also has some backstory. This past summer was the first time I came across your name and I came across your name because I like a lot of what Alex does on Spotify looking at new podcasts and I saw how to save a planet. And began listening and very quickly it became my morning routine where I was going through the back catalog and I would go to the gym and I would listen to these episodes. I just looked at such heavy weight because you were like, "We got to save the planet!" I was getting huge jacked, ripped, tan even, which I can't even explain it. Your hair was growing back, the whole thing. My hair was growing back, all the good things were happening. It actually had the opposite effect in the sense that I became so engrossed with certain sections. I was like, "I can't exercise while I'm listening to this. I actually have to be driving" or something else that is a little less, I was going to say, less dangerous all this statistically is probably not true. But the... I do have trouble counting wraps if anything else is going on. I understand. You know, we can't be good at everything. Yeah, I'm like to death. And my question for you, which had a very strange segue to get here, but what superpowers, if you had to answer this, what superpowers did you receive absorb from your parents? Ooh! And from which parent? Okay. I should preface this by saying my parents are incredibly cool. Like, I will never be as cool as my parents. And I think because I sort of acknowledged that very early on, I was like, "Okay, this is just great." My mom grew up on Long Island in a big Irish Catholic family. Both of my grandparents and outside are from Newfoundland. And she became a high school English teacher. She taught starting in the 60s in the South Bronx in Bedside in like super rough neighborhoods. Just really wanted to make sure those kids got a good education and didn't manage to get through high school without really learning to read and reading a bunch of books and processing that. And she and my dad met because their best friends were dating. This is sort of like the long version of the story. My dad had just moved to New York from Jamaica. He grew up in Kingston. And... I like the long versions, by the way. We have nothing to say. And so I have this very interesting sort of like Irish Jamaican mashup going. And those two cultures are actually quite similar as I learned more about Irish history in the last few years. Just like, you know, the way that the British screwed over the Irish and the way that that shapes your culture and the way that that influences the music and the dance and the way you find joy amidst it all, right? That sort of like gets passed down in via reverence and sarcasm. And so... That's where the sass comes from. I definitely think I like more sass even, my parents. Definitely more chatty. They're both sort of sparse with conversation. So my mom actually, after I finished college, she was like, "When did you learn to like tell a story and make jokes?" 'Cause we definitely didn't teach you that. We had the sort of quiet and not so lengthy dinners. I grew up as an only child. So... From my dad who passed away a few years ago, super artistic was an architect and a potter. And he started what may have been the first black-owned architecture firm in New York City and dealt with just like the insane racism of that very insular field. And so they're sort of like, "I'm just going to do this. I know this will be hard, but like this is the thing. And I'm just gonna figure it out." So him with his partners sort of made that work. And I'm sort of embarrassed to say, for many years I thought he was a failure. I didn't understand because he wasn't doing a bunch of cool buildings. He could show me he wasn't making any money really at all. And so I didn't think it worked. And then I ended up hanging out with a bunch of architects a few years ago. And I mentioned, "Oh, my dad was an architect." And they asked me about him. And they were like, "Oh, we know of that firm." He opened doors for so many other black architects. He was the first. Him and his partners were the first. And to be the first is not always glamorous, and people don't usually remember you in most contexts, right? And so now I was always proud of the meticulous nature of the way that he approached things. He was incredibly proud about everything from his building plans, to his handwriting, to his fashion sense. And really trained my eye as far as design and style, and my appreciation for art. But that sense that the thing that he instilled in me was that I had to give back. This was the mantra to who much is given, much is expected kind of thing. And also just the like, "Your gun, I have to work twice as hard to get half as much 'cause you're not white." And I was like, "Damn it." Those are more like the lessons than the superpowers, perhaps. But I guess on the superpowers side, it's just caring about how things look. I think within the climate and environmental movement, people don't put enough often energy into design, right? For so many years, it was just like this sort of like unappealing crunchy mess. You weren't like, "Oh, that's where all the cool kids are." And so I do think about aesthetics in my work in a very deep way because of my dad, which is not a superpower in other fields, but might be more so here. And my mom is just a super deep researcher, so she ended up developing all these new curriculums for her classes to include writers, authors of color. Black writers, Asian writers, Native American writers, and so she was reading all these books, she was buying them all with her own money, literally taking them and shopping carts to school at the beginning and end of every semester, handing them out to the kids. And just finding ways to help people have a greater understanding of the world, using literature as a way to teach history, as a way to teach cultural competency, as a way to teach about morality and justice. And so she's just a lifelong consummate teacher. I think there's a superpower in the curiosity that she still every day wakes up and wants to understand more and more nuance how the world works. I don't think I have it as strongly as she does. I'm like, "Oh my God, the deluge of information like it's too much." I would like to know less sometimes, but I think I would say her sort of endurance, intellectual endurance, and her real desire to have other people understand the important things that she learns. I have no idea what I was going to say. I'm not sure if I had more time to think about it if I would say the same thing.


Where did Katharine develop her storytelling skills? (24:56)

Well, that's kind of the goal with the questions that you haven't heard before, is that you don't have a whole lot of time. Where did you get the storytelling if you had to guess? Certainly, having spent a decent amount of time in Ireland, there's an incredible tradition. Maybe there is something in your code, so to speak, is there another explanation or another source or inspiration? There is, and it's that two of my cousins on my mom's side started an improv comedy group when they were maybe in college or so in LA, and they were like my idols. Stephen Connell, who's now a professional poet, actor, writer, and Joseph Pezzani, and they would just put on these incredible shows in the driveway at our family's annual clam bake and call up volunteers and stuff, and just watching the way their minds worked in connecting the dots and making everyone laugh and making it participatory, and no one ever got made fun of in a cruel way ever. It was just, we're all in this sort of absurdity creation together, and that was all our dinner table conversations were like telling crazies, to listen to them tell crazy stories. So I never aspired to be an actor, and as you know, I'm not really interested in being on video even at all. So I think for me it was just, I really looked up to them and I was just so impressed with what they could pull out of thin air and how they could turn to me that seemed so mundane into the most delightful and fascinating tale. Let's go back to scuba diving for a second.


Switching perspectives via scuba diving and climate. (26:31)

And the reason I bring it up is... - Because breathing underwater is cool. - I just need... Because breathing underwater is fucking rad, point one. But point two is that I've seen transformations in people where they have this binary switch of sorts, where they go from being vaguely interested in marine biology or the ocean, and they have their first experience with either snorkeling or scuba in a vibrant environment. And something just switches, and the way they relate to life underwater and the ocean itself changes. My question for you is... - Are you speaking from experience? - I am speaking from experience. So scuba diving and snorkeling are two of my favorite experiences and activities in the world. And when people talk about colonizing Mars or they talk about psychedelic experiences and they're like, "Oh, I'm probably never going to have either of those." I just say, "Go snorkeling or scuba diving. Do not trample all the coral." - Don't touch anything. - Don't touch anything. But for me, it was... These were life-changing experiences. And I'm wondering if there is any equivalent you have seen within discussions around climate or the subject matter of climate. Like, is there some experience that people can have that you have seen or heard of that flips a switch? And there's a before and an after. - Not in a positive way like that. What you've described is this like awe and delight that you can experience when you're immersed in this underwater world. The perspective that you gain when you realize that there's a whole bunch of stuff that is not about humans and we're not even supposed to be there. And the way that those marine ecosystems, you can see the food web in front of you. You can see who's eating who and how it's all connected in this really dynamic and immediate way. And the thing with climate is it's this sort of slow-moving disaster, in a sense. I mean, it's moving much more quickly than people had ever thought that it would. Every time we read a new report, it's like, "Oh, it's actually worse and faster." It's never like, "No big deal, just kidding." And so the thing that I've seen flip the switch is natural disasters, which is a term I don't use anymore. I call them like disasters or extreme weather events or something like that, because they're not natural anymore. This is not nature as it was intended to be. And so people who experience wildfires or hurricanes and other sorts of disasters, I think, often have this kind of like, "Oh, fuck. I'm not safe from this. You're not safe from this." For so long it felt like the media was portraying climate change, something that would affect poor, probably brown people in some faraway island. And so Americans were, if you read the news, or insulated from thinking that this would ever really come home to roost for us. And in the last few years, I think it's become clear that we're not safe. And wealthier people are actively working on ways to protect themselves and their families from the impacts of the climate crisis, but even they will not be able to hide from that, because they still need to get their food from somewhere and their medical treatment from somewhere. And we are all connected. So I don't know. I wish I had a more fun answer. But I think the only equivalent that I can think of is, you know, that's more similar to experiencing marine life, is the understanding that species are going extinct because of this, too. These magnificent things that have been on the planet for millennia have no place to live anymore, right? If you think about temperature range and a mountain, and you think, okay, well, they can't sustain temperatures over a certain amount, so species are moving up and up and up the mountain. But when you get to the top of the mountain, there's no foliage. There's no, you're above the tree line. The trees haven't grown there yet. There's no soil there, and there's nowhere else to go. There's no further up to go to get away from the heat. And the same with coral reefs. Corals can't get up and move, and there's nowhere to go. And so we have fish who are literally migrating towards the poles to try to stay cool. And all of these changes are so dramatic and happening right before our eyes in our lifetimes. This is not something that's playing out over generations. This is something that's playing out over years. It's really shocking. And so for people who have a specific love of nature over time, whether it's as a bird watcher and noticing what birds are missing or that the birds are coming at very different times, or if you're a gardener and realize that the first frost comes much later and springtime is changing to change when you plant things, for people who have a more day-to-day intimate relationship with any sort of species or ecosystem, I think there's sort of a persistent low-level heartache about going through the world and seeing the things that you care about be so threatened, and these things start to crumble. What I would love to do as a thought exercise is to play with the idea of certain experiences or struggling to find the right word. I totally felt to tell you why my parents are the coolest.


When my parents were hipsters. (32:49)

And my parents were like the proto hipsters. So my dad was living in Fort Green, Brooklyn when it was like super rough, and he was a student at Pratt, like Art Architecture School. And my mom was living in Harlem, and they would ride their bicycles in like Meet and Central Park and like hang out, and they would like play the flute together and like make homemade pickles, and they had like a whole vegetable garden in the back of the brownstone. They got in Fort Green, back when brownstones were like 30-something thousand dollars, and like they had like the whole scenario sorted. And then I came along and was just like sort of, I ruined everything. I ruined all their activities. Wow, they were hipsters before it was cool. I know. It was very cool. So we had like, you know, they were playing tennis while wearing white bell bottoms. I mean, like the whole thing was impeccable. And here I am just trying to, you know, not let them down. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors, and we'll be right back to the show.


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Scaring people into climate change action vs. inspiring them. (35:20)

I wanted to jump on the flute. In a jar of pottery that my father made himself. Oh my God, just gets better. We have, like, a whole pottery studio and a kiln and a wheel in the basement of our house. Yeah, and a dark room, the whole shebang. So if we look at, for a second, not as fun to discuss, but lack of a better way to describe it, say, scaring people into action versus or in combination with inspiring people into action. I'd love to explore this a little bit because I think both obviously can work. But if I think about, for instance, some of the things that I've been involved with, whether that's really interested in Trophic Cascade, both as it relates to, say, sharks. And also, yeah, Great Wolves. So I've been involved with a number of... Do you want to define Trophic Cascade for your listeners? Oh, I think you're going to be better with that. So we'll get there in a second. We'll get there in a second and I want you to do it because I will screw it up. And actually, one of the... Oh God, I'm going to take us all over the place. Okay, before we get any further... Well, actually, let me just finish my little quick piece. This is to say that the shark component and my introduction to Trophic Cascade came about because of a shark tagging trip that I went on. And then on the wolf side, there was a similar experience that, as you mentioned, Ken and does happen to people, made me very interested in other examples of Trophic Cascade and also the sort of plight of animals that become political targets or political symbols. And they were positive experiences certainly with a lot of terrible stories in the ether around both of them. But ultimately, it was kind of awe and wonder that brought me into both of those. And similarly, I've seen... So I've been very heavily involved with science-related, and I've been involved in the compounds of Johns Hopkins and other places. And what has happened in the last handful of years are many people I never would have suspected and have become involved with conservation in South America through great nonprofits like the Amazon Conservation Team and others. But it began with firsthand experience with, say, some of these displaced indigenous groups in South America. I do think there are other ways to introduce people to the ecosystem that includes climate change, to make them beneficial, proactive participants that include sort of awe and wonder in ways that I haven't described. It's a very long-winded question, but I've never asked it before. I'm with you. I think fear and anxiety and really unpleasant news is not terribly motivating for most people. It is for some. For me, I actually don't that often think about the details of how bad the scientific projections are and exactly what's happening to ecosystems. I focus almost entirely on solutions. My perspective is like it's as bad as we thought and actually worse and it's all happening fast. And then I immediately pivot to what are we going to do about it? Like what can I do to help? And I think the thing that's really interesting to me and actually super inspiring is that we basically have all the solutions we need. We know how to transition to 100% renewable energy. We know how to farm in regenerative ways that restore carbon to the soil instead of emitting it, right? We know how to transform public transit in cities. We know how to compost food. We already know how to do all this stuff. We know how to make buildings more efficient. We know how to improve manufacturing processes. It's just a matter of how fast we're going to do this and whether people will get out of their own ways and be able to forsake the self-interest, whether that's money or power, and just get this shit done. And to me that is the thing that gets me out of bed and we're like, how are we going to get this shit done? Because we can. Like because it is a possibility, because we have this wide range of possible futures still available to us. And I wanted part of making sure we get the best one. And so the things that I get excited about, I think many people could and will get more excited about as media starts to shift from problem to solutions, is that coastal ecosystems, like wetlands and mangroves, can absorb five times more carbon than a forest on land. Let's protect and restore those. Let's think about farming, oysters, and seaweed in the ocean. It absorbs a lot of carbon and is like a super low footprint source of food. I don't know, you probably have a take on whether those are good things to eat, but they're super sustainable. I'll tell you that, many Americans are iodine deficient. We're going to come back to that. And some people get really excited about the technology, figuring out how we're going to go from these clunky solar panels to solar panels that are just like regular roof tiles, or how we're going to sort of shift our food systems to accommodate for these things. What is the role of technology? What is the role of culture? What is the role of politics? Some people just love getting out of bed in the morning and harassing politicians into doing better on climate policy. And like, I'm glad that that floats your boat. And so I think it can be very exciting to consider how to put your interests, passions, superpowers to work towards specific climate solutions. And we don't have to do all of them. Like everyone just has to do something. And the solutions are really cool. Like offshore wind turbines powering the 40% of Americans who live in coastal counties. That would be great. Let's get it going. And so I guess if you think only about the problem, then of course it's a bummer. And I sort of fell into that trap when you ask me the question in its previous framing. But when you think about the solutions, there's like no limit to the sources of inspiration and places to look and things. You'd be like, "Ooh, I want that. I want to help with that. I want to support that. I want to like fund that. I want to innovate the 2.0 version of that."


Which of Dr. Michelson's episodes did I share with my audience? (42:02)

All right. We're going to play another game, the guessing game. So I mentioned that I listened to many, many episodes of... Which was your favorite? Which was your least favorite? We're going to get to both of those. Okay. So I have shared a few episodes with my audience. That's nice. Through my newsletter, which goes out to a few million people. No big deal. No big deal. But it's just as a side note. I mean, it's the... If you want to push to direct action, having direct contact with your subscribers is very helpful to anyone out there who's determining where they should focus on growing an audience. The question I have for you is which episodes do you think I chose? Can you possibly guess? For what? Best and worst? Favorite? At least? Let's go with the ones I shared. Oh, which did you share? Okay. Yeah. I kind of know your vibe, but not really. Yeah. I'll give you just a helpful tip is that my audience spans the political spectrum. Well, you just sort of gave it away. Okay. Did I? Tell me. Tell me. Tell me. Well, what I was going to say before you gave me this hint was the ones on kelp are actually really interesting because they have this sort of health and wellness and food angle and super creative entrepreneurship piece. So I thought you might have been... And they're kind of fun too. So I thought you might have shared that, but it's a two-parter. And so that's like a little less shareable. That is an excellent guess and you are correct. Yes!


Connecting with Seaver Buckminster Smith (Bren Smith's joyfully absentminded cousin) (43:42)

So what is this guy's name? Because the story about him... The fisherman turned... Living in a tent on the side of a golf course selling LSD to his fellow students. This is the guy, right? This is the... That's the story? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And apparently it's getting late. Left, right, and center. Yeah. Yeah. So the entire thing as a story was... And from the perspective of storytelling was so riveting that even if someone said, "I don't buy climate change," it's still something they would listen to. Yeah. Right? And that's why I chose... That was the first episode that I shared actually. And I just thought from a human interest perspective, from a solutions perspective, from a capitalist perspective, even though that's the dirty word in some circles, from an enlightened self-interest perspective, maybe we could say, there are so many entry points on this episode. And it's funny, all right. It's all right. It's the humor. And that's something I really appreciated about... It still do, but appreciated about how you engaged with the podcast. And part of why I kept listening to it was using humor when possible. Mm-hmm. Because this shit can be so dark. Mm-hmm. But that is the first episode that I shared. I'm so glad. So that's a very good... Because I have a crush on C. We need Anne Brent Smith, the fisherman who's now an ocean farmer is a wonderful human being. And I love his organization, Green Wave, which is training people to become ocean farmers and doing all this great work. I'm so enamored the whole thing that I joined their board, and I'm like saying no to everyone constantly. So that's how big a fan I am of that work. So it was really great to have them on the show. Do you recall the name of the episode or how people would find that episode? Because it's just an incredible story with very colorful characters involved. What should people Google if they want to find that episode? Help farming for the climate. Yeah, so help farming for the climate. What I did in my newsletter is I renamed the link. So... Oh, so that it wasn't for the climate. That's right. Because the episode will get there. Yeah, yeah. But I didn't want to... What do you name it? I didn't want... That is a great question. Let me see if I can find it. This might take a minute. So the other episode I thought once you gave me that hot tip was that you chose the one where we discussed how to have conversations about climate change with climate science deniers. The trying to talk to family about climate change question mark. Here's how episode. I actually... I did not share that one, but I've not heard that episode either. It's a former Republican congressman and his son talking about how their perspectives on climate have evolved and how the son and his sisters played a big role in shifting his father's perspective and how they're working on with Republicans. With Republicans on trying to get climate policy and sort of awareness past because it doesn't need to be a partisan issue. We can all care about maintaining a habitable planet. So here's what I put in my newsletter. So the newsletter is called "Five Bullet Friday" and it's just the five coolest, most interesting things I've come across or experimented with that week. And this is podcast episode I'm listening to from codfishing to kelp farming. I put in parentheses my title and then with Dr. Ayadim Lewis with Johnson and Alex Bloomberg. And here's what I wrote. For many reasons, I'm considering investing heavily in aquaculture. So I've been doing a deep dive pun intended into the subject. And then we can deconstruct why I wrote it this way. This episode is incredibly smart, incredibly helpful and incredibly hilarious. I didn't expect the characters involved and kept bursting out laughing at the gym this morning. I'm not the crazy person, but kept on listening. Whether you want an investing advantage or simply great stories, this episode is really worth the time. And if you'd like to learn storytelling and podcasting tips from one of the co-hosts, Sox Bloomberg, you can find my 2015 interview with him here. So the reason I positioned it this way and the reason I renamed the title is because I wanted as large a funnel at the top of people who would click play on this episode as possible. Sure, that's great. That's why I positioned it the way that I did. I'm glad you like our corny jokes. I'm sorry, the corny jokes were mostly unscripted. And I'm very surprised that so many of them made the cut. I was astonished that what was the kelp farmer's name again? Bren Smith. Bren with no T. B-R-E-N. B-R-E-N. Okay, so I was surprised you kept in everything you said related to the 10, which you alluded to. I mean, yeah, if you really want to get a lot of acid college, it turns out living in a tent by the golf course is the way to do it. Yeah. It was just, it was, it was. I could not have predicted that that would be the way, but you know. Okay, what do you think my, what do you think my least favorite episode of the season? Episodes might be. Oh, plural. You went feral. I'm least favorite.


Strategies For Large-Scale Change

The release cone trajectory of Jeff's least and most favorite episodes. (49:04)

Cute. Well, well, I want to, I want to, I'm going to provide a lens though, and this is not going to be surprising. Not least favorite to personally listen to. Most favorite to share. Those, those least likely to share. Most likely to share. Black lacks matter in the climate. I mean, you have to really double re-tidal that one. Yeah, you're close, but it's, it's not exactly that. It's any episode that had a mixture of many causes or multiple causes. Not because they don't matter. Not because they aren't important, but because I felt like it was, if I'm trying to use a Trojan horse approach to get the funnel to be as large as possible for clicking, I didn't want. In the beginning, later things can, can be different, but I, I wanted to provide sort of single points of action, if that makes any sense. So not the one titled environmentalist drag queen, Patty Gonia says the outdoors is for everyone. That's right. Not the one that says we can't solve the climate crisis without gender equality. We'll prove it to you. So if there were episodes that laid out in the call to action, sort of a clear sequence or in the narrative, clear sequence, then I would be open to sharing it. If it felt to me like, and hopefully this doesn't come across terribly, but if I felt like for the listener who is not, who feels like the climate acting in some proactive way with respect to climate change is futile. If that's how they're coming into it, like, I don't think there's really anything I can do. If they're already demoralized about that, if I felt like an episode might kind of look like the back of a car in like Berkeley, California with multiple bumper stickers that they wouldn't know how to put in any order or make any sense of. And therefore they would just opt out, then I would be less inclined to share it. It doesn't mean they're not important episodes.


The danger in using corporate terms to create conversation. (51:06)

Which was your favorite episode that you didn't share because of that reason? I'll give an example of one I liked, but then also had some issues with. I thought the episode related to, and you're going to have more of the specifics here, but the, I guess you would say, activists within Amazon. I thought that was a really interesting episode that had a couple of points in the dialogue that veered into a number of different areas that made it hard for me to be told. For me to be totally sympathetic to some of the protagonists in the episode. But I did find that very interesting from the perspective of the incredible leverage you can get if you're able to successfully catalyze action within enormous companies, especially those with large carbon footprints. Side note, did British Petroleum actually create the term carbon footprint? They definitely popularized it and like trade upon it and tried to make it seem like this whole thing is our fault. I'm not sure if they actually point the term. But shifting, creating online calculators to sort of shift the onus to the individual. It's really, and like, disgusting. It really is. Frank Luntz, type of death tax. We need more of these linguistic jujitsu happening on the side of climate solutions. I noticed that with some of your sponsors on the show also, and I was like, "Oh, that's quite clever." I think it was. Well, there was, I want to say, and again, this is faulty memory at work, but I think it was, I want to say fidelity or some investment firm that offered the ability to invest in, for lack of a better term, climate friendly or climate solution focused. I'm not vetted, do not personally endorse. No, no, right. But I noticed that instead of saying they said the green transition, and I was like, that's an interesting way of phrasing it, that's a very interesting way of phrasing it, because the language matters. It's a very sensible word I can think of that indicates just how much things have to change. We're not talking about tweaking little things, tweaks and policy, tweaks and behavior, tweaks and corporate practices. We're talking about transforming our energy system, food system, transportation, manufacturing buildings, all of it. When you think about the climate challenge in those terms, there is a place for everybody in working towards these solutions, in figuring out this green transition or this transformation, because no matter where you work, your company needs to be a part of this. No matter where you live, your community needs to be prepared for this. No matter what skills you have, believe me, they are necessary. I think of that as that the word transformation both is appropriate to the scale of what needs to happen, but also a bit more welcoming, because it implies that we can still shape the future that we want, which is true. Let's talk about transformation and large-scale, broad-spectrum transformation, because the scale of that I can imagine intimidating a lot of people and them saying, "You know what? I'm going to be a drop in the ocean on intended, and what am I going to do? Really, am I going to replace my straws and make a difference? I don't think I can do anything." It was people, and I know you've spoken about this, and you've spoken about it in the podcast as well, but how do you suggest people think about where they might fit in? The Venn diagram comes to mind, but what do you recommend to people who are saying, "You know, I would love to do something. Realistically, I can't make this my full-time job. What would you have me do? How would you suggest I even think about it?" I would say don't think about it as a side thing. Think about how this is part of your life already. And so I think often people think, "I want to help on some environment thing." They're like, "Do I go volunteer for a nonprofit? Do I quit my job and go do this entirely other thing?" When the answer is often, change your company, change your sports team, change your church, figure out how to put the things they're already a part of, where you already have influence and leverage.


How to understand the Venn diagram of large-scale change. (55:56)

Change those things as opposed to trying to do some entirely new thing that you have no networking or power in. This idea of power mapping, of figuring out where you actually have the ability to make change, I think is a really important step. And this sort of, I think in many ways, the environmental movement had a real problem initially because it was asking everyone to do the same thing. We still fall into this trap, right? Everybody spread the word, everybody march, everyone donate, everyone vote. And we should do all those things, of course. But if you and I were both doing the same exact thing to contribute to climate solutions, that would be a total waste of both of our time, right? We should do the things we're good at. And so the way that I think about it, and we sort of went into this sort of debate between individual behavior change, where it does all add up. If we all change our diets, if we all change our transportation, if we all change our electricity, that does add up to something. But they were counting on individuals to change things, is that need whole systems to change. I don't get to choose where my electricity comes from when I turn on my lights in this apartment building, per se. So we need to make the system make other things possible in terms of energy, for example. So we did this whole episode called, "Is your carbon footprint BS?" talking about this debate between-- I was going to episode. I hoped you would like that one. This debate between two siblings, where one was like, individual actions matter, and the other one was like, no, only this big level systems change stuff matters. And the answer here that we landed on is that your individual actions matter in so much as they contribute to larger scale change. And the way that I think about everyone finding their sort of bespoke role in climate solutions is this Venn diagram of just three circles. The first one is, what are you good at? What superpowers? What skills are you bringing to the table? Your network? Your resources? What's your God? And then the next circle would be, what part of this transformation do you want to work on? Are you really excited about seaweed? Are you really excited about offshore wind farms? Are you really excited about bike lanes or composting or political change or cultural shifts? Like, whatever is the piece. Like, there's so many pieces to this puzzle and no one can do them all. So just, which ones are you picking? And then the third circle is, what brings you joy? So what gets you out of bed in the morning? Because so often people assume that this work has to be miserable and some sort of slog. But this is the work of our lifetimes. And it's like this whole transformation, so we could take the dream to anything in transforming any sector. Like, pick something that you can keep working on for a while that will energize you and you want to bring other people in. And so finding our way to the epicenter, each of us, of our personal version of that Venn diagram can be really powerful. So, for example, I, as a marine biologist and a kid who grew up in Brooklyn, a coastal city and a policy nerd who loves thinking about design. I co-founded a think tank for the future of coastal cities. Because I was like, this is what I'm good about and know about and care about and excited about. So let's just mash all that up together and see how we can help coastal cities change their policies in order to adapt to the climate changes that are coming. And my friend Boris was like, well, I'm, should we just go to more marches? I brought him to a climate protest. And he was like, do we just do this again next week? I was like, no, go change your company. You're an executive at Betterment. And nine months later, he launched their Sustainable Investing Fund, which is much more power. I don't care if he ever goes to a march again. Because that doesn't matter because he has this much greater ability to make change where he already is. So what are you going to do, Tim? Tell us about your Venn diagram. Well, I will answer that. The energize you part. I just want to underscore because I think it is so, so, so, so important. And much like the in the podcast world, there's like this elephant graveyard of three episode podcasts because people choose something at the outset that is too complex, not interesting enough to them, not energizing. And then they quit, right? So I really think that energized piece is huge. And enjoy like we can find joy in our work, especially if it's like volunteer work, like pick a fun one. Yeah. So for me, part of the reason I've been looking forward to this conversation. Well, there are many reasons I've been looking forward to this conversation, including the SAS.


Playing hard to get. (01:00:55)

Mostly because I played hard to get. Mostly because you played hard to get. This is very true. Very, very, very true. I don't do it in dating, but apparently I do it with podcast invites. You know, and it works, and it works. So for me, if I'm getting all vulnerable and stuff, the last two years have been very difficult for me from the perspective of existential distress and just disappointment in humanity in general. That's why when people are like, Oh, what are you doing for philanthropy? I'm like, I'm not sure that's the right word because like Phil and throw like anthropology. I don't actually like humans that much. And humans are consistently disappointing, aren't they? Yeah. And so the last two years, I've just been like, we're fucked. I just, I don't see how we write this. But like, how fucked do you want to be? Well, so it's like in my mind, I think, well, like if COVID, this clear and present danger that is literally killing people right in front of us can't get political leaders to coordinate or cooperate. How are we going to handle this iceberg that we're heading towards that is on the range of possibly decades away? And I understand it's not a switch that gets flipped. But yeah, it's here. Yeah, it's here. And I was just like, God, you know, maybe I should just, you know, pick up pottery, take some watercolor classes and just enjoy it. I think we're mixing pickles. And what I think got me, well, I wasn't totally on the bench, right? I was listening to things like your pot, because I was re I've been reading books. I've read drawdown. I would actually love your thoughts on that. Cause they rank and I don't know if their algorithm or their method is scientifically credible. I just don't know.


The most exciting options for major change within the collective. (01:02:50)

But it's very good. And their new version, the drawdown review available for free online. I can share the link with you is wonderful. And like the graphic design makes everything super clear. Okay, I'll tie this in then because I went through drawdown. I paid particular attention to the back and the appendices. And I looked at where my strengths and enthusiasm might overlap. And I was like, okay, I see that refrigerants is really, really high. Yeah. But I just, I don't know anything about refrigerants. It doesn't excite me. I don't have any particular knowledge or network related to refrigerants. But there were some where I was like, okay, I could actually see becoming involved in, say, aquaculture. And spoke to a number of people I won't mention by name, but who are very, very some of the smartest technologists in the world who I know, right? And they, they mentioned that they thought some of the most promising interventions were ocean based and talked about different organizations and companies, you know, ClimbWorks and Carbon Removal, things like Charm Industrial, which I find super, super, super interesting. And a name that we chatted about before we started recording, Chris Sokka also got me very interested in looking at sort of solutions focused, obviously market driven technologies that might play a role. And the reason that got me excited is not because I'm a techno optimist who's like, we can fuck up everything because, you know, there'll be this like deus ex machina like God out of the sky who will save us with some new technology. I don't really endorse that kind of approach, but the idea that you could align just the most cold blooded capitalist animal to do the right thing in self interest for the collective. Does that make sense? That was very exciting. There's a lot of money to be made in green energy in, in food system shifts in transportation, all of it. Yeah. Yeah. Huge. And so that got me very excited and you might laugh at me, but another thing that got me off the bench was the recent breakthroughs in fusion technologies. And I know the joke is like fusion's always 30 years away, but looking at it more close, I was like, you know what? Man, there are so many ways this, this might not work in so many challenges. But if it does, this could be extremely, extremely, I mean, exponentially more effective than many of these, these other technologies that are, that are being brought to bear on the problem. Not to say that's the only option, right? Because I think that's a Hail Mary or some people view it as a Hail Mary, but it was, it was fusion that got me really excited. And, you know, I'm looking at a text from a friend of mine, he's saying, you know, advanced geothermal ocean wind looked very promising. So you mentioned the, I'm not sure the phrasing you used, but the ocean wind, I think is very interesting. Yeah, offshore wind. Offshore wind. And these are also places where, so I'll give you just a quick example that maps for me in my mind. So I've spent many years now and thousands of hours on psychedelic science and medicine and therapeutics and so on. I've, I made a decision very early on not to invest in any for-profit companies because I wanted to preserve my ability to kind of critique and comment on the space and to be viewed as unbiased. So that was my decision, but I did a lot of fundraising and I've raised, certainly I'd be in the top, I'd say three people who've raised money in the space. But as soon as a few for-profit companies began to show promise and went public, for better and for worse, a lot of the people who were donating to the nonprofits completely abandoned it and went to for-profit. And I think there are issues with that related to IP and otherwise. But I do think that just based on the number of limited partners, meaning investors and so on, who've started to plow money into some of these technologies we're talking about. That got me excited because you could finally in my mind sort of align in an exciting way, individual self interest, even if they don't give a shit about the environment, which preferably they would, but even if they don't with sort of collective betterment. So what am I going to do? I'm going to interview people like you. I'm going to have entrepreneurs on the podcast who are, and I want to make this really clear, putting climate aside, putting all of that aside, really incredible thinkers and entrepreneurs and builders at the end of the day. They can stand on their own two feet from that perspective, so their story is interesting, much like Bren, even if you take climate out of it or any politics out of it. And I'll be investing, right? I'm investing, I've done a lot of early stage investing, and I've started in the last six to 12 months, especially putting, I would say probably at this point, the majority of my investing dollars into some of these startups. I love it. So that's what I'm going to do. And, you know, we'll see where it goes. I'm into it. I think the highlighting people doing the work is interesting because in many cases it's so surprising because people don't think about the full spectrum of ways you can be a part of the solution. So showing like, oh no, you can be like a tycoon and do this. You can be a tech nerd and do this. You can be a technologist and do this. You can be a health nut and do this.


Highlights of All We Can Save. (01:08:30)

Like whatever is your thing, we need you. And I think that's really exciting. That's actually the same approach that we took with the anthology that I co-edited, All We Can Save, which is this collection of 40 or so essays by women leading on climate work. And to see side by side an essay by a woman who led the Beyond Coal campaign at the Sierra Club, which has effectively shut down over 300 coal fire power plants in the US in the last decade. This is not peanuts. This is the transformation, right? To that side by side with a super model writing about how the fashion industry is part of the problem and an artist writing about how she's part of the solution and a landscape architect talking about how we're going to protect coastal cities by replanting more oysters and thinking about how we design our coastlines differently, right? Having a farmer tell the stories of how they've shifted their practices and are training the next generation. All of these are super interesting and like I haven't said climate once, right? Like it's about this like cool work that people are doing that is contributing to the changes that we need to see. And honestly, it's stuff that would need to happen even if climate change weren't a problem because burning coal is really bad for our health and it's bad for the planet, even if it didn't change the climate, because fast fashion is really dangerous for people and the planet in other ways. It's toxic and bad for workers, right? Like it's not a good thing anyway. Eating industrial food, pull of pesticides is not good for us anyway, and it's not good for the planet or the climate. And so I think you're right that for so many of the solutions that we have, they are better jobs. There is a cleaner water, cleaner air. Things are just more beautiful and green and we can still make plenty of money. It's just a better world full stop on all these different levels. And so you can actually, in many cases, take climate out of the equation because fossil fuels are bad for our health, right? They are so bad for maternal health, right? It is really dangerous for babies to be exposed to all these toxins. We know that there's like, so COVID is like birth weight and birth defects and all of these other problems, not to mention what's happening in coal mining communities with public health and black lung and all of these things and the pollution of the waterways and the loss of ecosystems. So I think, yeah, sure, if you want to do this for another reason besides climate, that's fine with me. We need to get it done. Not to mention fertility overall is just terrifying to see with, I'm not sure what you would call it, microplastics and so on. It's terrifying. People should watch children of men as a preview.


Making A Difference In Climate Change

Don't Look Up (Netflix) (01:11:21)

Ooh, I haven't seen that. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's brutal. It's worth checking out. It's pretty dystopian, but it's not improbable. Have you seen the news film Don't Look Up? No. What's that? Adam McKay directed at this new film. He directed like, I don't know, Vice, which is Saturday Night Live. He's a comedy writer and it stars Leonardo DiCaprio and Jennifer Lawrence and all these other star-setted, Meryl Streep and Tyler Perry and all these folks. And it's basically like a satire, a parable where this comet is coming to hit the earth and we sort of ignore it. And there's this whole campaign, this is Don't Look Up, you know? And Meryl Streep plays the president and she's more worried about getting votes than about deflecting this comet from ruining all life on Earth. And some technologist is like, wait, we could just mind the comet. Like, let's not deflect it. And all of this stuff, right? It is this like anxiety inducing for anyone who's been trying to communicate on climate for years. Piece of cinema. And the point was to spark more conversation on climate and do it in a way that uses humor. So when you said you appreciated how to save a planet, which, you know, the podcast I co-created, because it was funny, the point was that you were trying to make it happen. And it was funny, at least to you. I really appreciated that because I think we need more climate media that is deploying humor. Because humor quantitatively, we know, is a way to like have people open their minds to new ideas, right? When you're laughing, you're not fighting. You're able to listen. It helps you let your guard down. It helps you like be in community with people in a different way. So I actually just released an op-ed today, co-authored with the director. The title is, "Why Our Secret Weapon Against the Climate Crisis Could Be Humor." Oh, amazing. So, I'll read that. Yeah. In the Guardian. We will link to that in the show notes as well. So let me just kind of brain vomit on you for a second. That's gross. And then I'd love to get your perspective. And again, I don't mean to draw this comparison constantly, but there are some parallels. So in the case of psychedelic science and therapeutics, let's just say MDMA assisted psychotherapy for PTSD or psilocybin for, let's just say, end of life anxiety in terminal cancer patients, both real research examples. And both are in phase three trials where I have just completed phase three trials. They're very close to the kind of regulatory finish line per se, and the data look very, very, very good. The tip of the spear that has ended up becoming incredibly strategically important for all of these, not just cultural narrative changes, but political changes and regulatory changes, has been focusing on the veteran populations who suffer from PTSD. Because the veterans have political immunity in the sense that neither side Republican nor Democrat can come out and say, fuck the vets. It just, it would be incredibly politically damaging policies that essentially do that. Yeah, right. Exactly. But nonetheless, like that has become a key piece of the puzzle for allowing both sides to cooperate. And that's another reason why, although there are a lot of kind of anti business anti capitalist folks on the left, but nonetheless, I think most people recognize the capitalism as kind of the best of the worst options that we have. I've viewed some of the for profit solutions as one bridge potentially. Are there other ways you think to get people to cooperate who are on opposite sides of the political spectrum? Are there other bridges or other tricks anything?


Climate change, fossil fuels and the military (01:15:31)

One that comes to mind because you use this example of veterans is the immense risk that our dependence on fossil fuels places on our armed forces, our military. We are literally fighting wars for oil. We would not have to do that. We would all those lives would be saved if we were just using sunshine and wind instead, or geothermal or whatever magical fusion thing you think will happen soon. Well, no words about. Read new evil energies. And I think we don't understand that like, you know, military convoys, like so many of them are actually just transporting fuel for military operations. And that's what's getting bombed. Right. Like it is putting our soldiers at risk, this dependence. It is creating wars in places where the weather patterns have changed so dramatically that there is famine that leads to unrest that leads to violence. It leads to the United States getting involved, right? Like this is a national security issue. This is the safety of our military issue. And so in some senses, the military has the foresight to say like climate change is absolutely happening. How are we going to plan for this? They are taking steps to think through a lot of those practicalities, but this is it is extremely disrespectful of our troops to be putting people in harm's way for reasons that don't exist. Like we just do not have to live this way on this planet. And so I wish that people would talk a little bit more about that. And it's the same for thinking about our naval bases all on the coast, all at risk of sea level rise and storms. We have, you know, in Norfolk, Virginia, the big base there. Access is caught off during high rains, the street floods because of sea level rise, right? And so that is absolutely a national security and safety issue. So there's a lot of stuff on that side that I wish more people would appreciate. If we're going to say support our troops, that means we have to deal with climate change. I think on the other side, just the joy of nature, like the ability to go for a hike, the ability to enjoy springtime, the ability to be outside in the summer and not melt, the ability to go skiing, the ability to go scuba diving on a coral reef, all these pleasures that exist because nature has been relatively stable for a long time. Like, I would love to go skiing this winter in driving distance of New York City, but not looking really good right now for snow. And so thinking about it from not just self interest or financial gain, which there are plenty of arguments for that as well, but thinking about it from the things that we love to do in the world being all at risk. I mean, coffee, chocolate, wine, all of this is getting turned upside down by the changes in our climate that we can't grow these things as well anymore. Wildfires in Napa, obviously no good for many reasons. So I think we could be a bit more hedonistic about why we should do something to preserve our Dionysian pleasures in the world. Yeah, if you don't want, I was watching a program on wine production and how that is shifted and how things are being grown in the UK that 50 years ago couldn't have been grown in the UK. And I don't know, somebody had mentioned this to me, I didn't fact check it, but that a lot of lobster harvesting is moving to Canada due to climate change. They're used to be very common in Long Island sound, no longer here and starting to move out of Maine and even further north into Nova Scotia. Let me ask you a question about your episodes of the podcast because I gave my best shot, but you've certainly listened to more episodes than I have.


Post-game analysis of episodes stem from wanting the largest impact. (01:19:25)

Which episodes, which episodes? I do listen to them all after and I like do a game tape thing. I'm like, how could I've done that better? How could that joke of land? You do? Are you serious? Absolutely. Everyone is all the answers. All the better since you're doing these post game analyses to ask the question I wanted to ask, which episodes worked the best and which would you have done differently to have them work better. And by work, you're in a unique position to speak to working because you always had a call to action. So I suppose another way to phrase this would be which episodes have had the biggest impacts and which would you have done differently to have them have a greater impact if you could maybe give an example of each. This is a question I would love to be able to answer quantitatively, but I can't. I don't think there's like robust tracking of like who's clicking what and taking what actions afterwards. I sort of like wanted there to be a whole dashboard built out and all the I did not get my wish. And I also had myself taken off the email distribution for all incoming listener mail, which is too much. So I don't even have sort of like a firm qualitative grasp after the first few episodes. But I think for a bunch of episodes, we had the same call to action, which was call your members of Congress because this is our chance to pass federal climate policy. Through the combination of the infrastructure bill, which did pass and had some climate measures in it, and the bill back better plan, which has like way more in terms of the energy transition, supporting the shift to electric cars, all sorts of infrastructure and federal related things that we need to see happen. We encourage people to call their members of Congress and say like, we actually, I support this. I think we should have a good climate policy in America. I think we should have a civilian climate core that puts Americans to work restoring and protecting our ecosystems and building physically this transition. I think we should have offshore wind energy in this country. We've got a lot of ocean. We've got a lot of wind. And, and, you know, I think we should have 100% clean electricity by 2035, which is the goal. We can get there where we got to get it going. And so encouraging people offering specific talking points. This is not partisan. This is just like, we need the federal government to do its part in jump starting this transition, just as they did with innovating the Internet or funding Tesla to get started. The government funds a lot of really important early stage stuff in R&D and jump starts it. So we had a ton of people calling in, which matters because very few people actually pick up the phone and call the representatives. I'm super super wussy about it for some reason, even though I know you can call after hours and just leave a voicemail. I still get like really nervous. But because so few people call your call has outsized weight. They have to log every call from their constituents. If they get 10 calls on anything, they're like, what is our position on this? And they have to develop one. They have to be able to answer to people who elected them. They assume 10 people didn't call who feel the same way, so your voice actually does have a lot of power in that context. And so seeing people feel like that actually mattered is a way to leverage your power as a citizen. And then we also had a lot of laughter the electric car episode that we're like, I bought an electric car because that episode was great. So it sort of like spans the gamut of people like, I'm eating so much more kelp now. But I think having this sort of call to action at the end of every episode, whether it's like try out some seaweed recipes or call your senator, hopefully there's sort of something for everyone.


The quick mention: Lowercarboncapital.com and cc.callawide.com. (01:23:20)

All right, I want to mention a couple of things and then jump into some more. You've got to smirk with that intro that I'm like, what are you going to mention? My smirk. I always have a smirk. This is why some people, this is why half the internet hates me. I'm convinced is I just have a very punchable face like people are like, what's that fucking smirk about? And I can't erase it. It could be the, you know, Lenin, not as in John Lennon, but as in the, yeah, the sort of Russian propaganda. Comedy list later. Yeah. The American History X look that I can't seem to avoid might be the problem. But a couple things I want to mention just for people listening. First is, if you want to see some of the coolest companies I've come across anywhere, go to lower carbon capital. This is Chris Saka and team. You will see some of the craziest, coolest things you can possibly imagine. Just check that out.


Why making noise doesnt always lead to change. (01:24:14)

Another is to echo what you just said, the calls really matter. I have interviewed Arnold Schwarzenegger on the podcast once, maybe twice. And I've gotten to know his team and I've gotten to know a number of other lawmakers. And precisely, as you said, because so few people call, if you get a few dozen people to call, or a few hundred people to call, they will pay attention. And also, the question I have for you is about cultural pressure and getting to some type of tipping point with respect to elected officials. And here's the phrasing of the question. I think expecting politicians to do anything that does not assist them in getting elected or reelected is probably naive in the same way that to expect most public company CEOs to plan 20 years out is. Unrealistic, if they're being rewarded based on quarterly results. Or take a 1% loss to save the planet. Right. Well, so, right. I think just people respond to incentives. So my question for you is, what do you think it will take? Are there kind of next actions that I or other people could be thinking about in the next few years, within the next few years, they could help shift that tide to the point that politicians actually need to think about and take positions more aggressive positions. Now, sadly, it could be in the opposite direction also. But what could we do to make it matter more? We need to protect voting rights. The majority of Americans understand that climate change is a massive problem. It's only 9% of Americans who are full blown climate science deniers. We have the largest percentage of Americans ever now who are deeply alarmed about the climate crisis. It's about a third. It's not about getting, and then there's like alarmed, there's concerned, there's like all these different levels, but it's like the vast majority of Americans are like, "Holy shit, climate change, what are we going to do?" And so it's not that we don't have the constituency for it. It's that have you seen the shape of these ridiculous, congressional districts, the way that they're gerrymandered, that they don't actually reflect communities, that they're just designed to elect a specific party, the voter registration laws, the way they're purging the voter rolls, the way they're requiring all these more forms of identification. So passing the Voting Rights Act, passing voter protections more generally, is actually a really important step because our voices can't be heard as citizens if we can't elect the people who share our views because the system is so skewed. And so that is something people don't think about enough, that saving the structure of our democracy, of representative democracy, of the electoral process is actually really critical because we already do have the numbers, but we're losing because of that. And one of the organizations that I'm completely enamored with that is doing work along these lines is called the Environmental Voter Project, and what they've identified is that there's 10 million, 16 million sometimes environmentalists, self-described, who have, you know, environment is their number one issue, who are already registered to vote and who do not go to the polls. That is the lowest hanging fruit, right? Already registered, already care, need to get them out to vote. And so I volunteer with that organization and serve on their advisory board because we know how close these elections are, they're all like 1%, like a few hundred people in some cases, so getting people to actually go and use their right to vote is super critical. So those are the things that are on my mind now because they're also like we're coming up on midterm elections and making sure that we make clear to politicians that we actually, we want you to have a good climate policy platform. We need you to protect your constituents in every state we're dealing with really wild extreme weather events from landslides to wildfires to floods to droughts to hurricanes to tornadoes out of nowhere to fire tornadoes. I mean, it's crazy. And so this is not a partisan issue. This is about doing your job and protecting your constituents. But I hear you that like, if they don't feel that their reelection is at risk, it doesn't matter. And so we need to protect voting rights. And we also need to think about how elections are funded. The Citizens United Supreme Court case that allowed corporations to fund elections. Really, we can't our democracy dramatically. So like, I know it's sort of a well card, but like overturned Citizens United would be like a great step to climate policy in America, because we wouldn't have the Chamber of Commerce and all of these fossil fuel companies and pipeline companies able to literally pay for elections, which is super dangerous. I can't compete with that. So I think just safeguarding our electoral process on the campaign finance side and on the voting rights side are really key.


How to Make a Difference (01:29:27)

We will add links to the show notes for everybody with everything that we're talking about, including those organizations. Now, when I hear that, it sounds overwhelmingly complex. Like there's next to nothing that I could do in that sphere as someone who also is, I don't want to say. Are you kidding me? Well, you tell me then, let's do a deeper dive then. So like, what could someone who is has an allergic reaction to politics still do to assist in something? Well, I don't know how to deal with your allergy per se. I don't know. Take an antihistamine and just fucking job then. I think it comes down to like choosing the thing that you care about, right? Like we can't care about everything. And that's why like environmental voter project for me is like easy. Let's get people who already care who are already registered to vote to get to the polls. I can do that. I can host phone banks. You could host a phone bank with me. Wouldn't that be a blast? You can tell people to volunteer. You just call your neighbors and be like, Hey, we need you to vote, right? Like pick the person with a good climate platform. It'll be very clear probably which person that is. And I think to think about local elections too, often, you know, at the presidential level or the Senate level, it's a very different calculus for people who feel very aligned with a particular political party. But when it comes to city council, which is where your transit and waste management and recycling and composting and bike lane and building code and whatever decisions are getting made in your city governments, you can focus on those elections. It doesn't have to feel so loaded and partisan. It can feel like we need to get things right where I live. I want to be a part of that. And also, I will say local elections, you can support candidates and your dollars go away further because in a presidential or Senate election, you're talking like millions, tens of millions of dollars. Local elections, often the entire budget for a campaign is like 10 grand. And so I've hosted fundraisers where we've been able to like double the campaign budget of these local candidates to help them get their ideas and their platforms out so that more people know what they stand for. To me, it makes it feel a lot more both possible and concrete to think about local elections. And there's an organization called Lead Locally that focuses on local candidates with great climate platforms. So thinking about like, who's running your port authority? Who's running your railroad commission? Who's running your school board? What are our kids getting taught about? How we deal with these challenges? All of those positions really matter too because it's at the local level that these policies and solutions are often getting implemented. Like that's where the rubber meets the road. All right, I'm going to do a much deeper dive. I'll do some homework. I'll do some homework and we'll have some beers and talk about it. Do you drink beer? There's so much gluten. No, I don't. We eat like one of the highest pesticide crops, you know, glyphosate, super dangerous beer. You mentioned beer before we got started. You're the one who started this whole thing. I like tequila. Tequila engine. You get tequila all of my skull will like meet on the internet. You know, we could have some so tall. That's a whole separate thing. It's kind of like a mixture. Anyway, we'll get into it. I don't think Jimmy all tasted. All right. So the question that I want to ask you is related to a term I brought up earlier, which I think about it's not the way that everyone thinks about these things, but the minimum effective dose.


Miscellaneous Topics

What Is SHRIMP? (01:33:00)

What I mean by that is what are some small things that people can do that don't require sacrifices and they may be things they're not even aware have the magnitude of impact that they do. And one, I wanted to give as an example, right? Because I think sometimes people who have causes try to shame the hell out of people and ask them to change all of their behaviors and it just doesn't work. Right. So I'm always looking for the gateway drug. Like, what is something really small that won't get a lot of pushback for most people? And I thought we would start with an example, which is on the fact at your website, the FAQ shrimp. You talk about shrimp, please, because this is a great example. Yeah. I will say I appreciate the need for people to have a place to start, but I also object to the framing that there's the way people often asking the question, which is like, what's one simple thing I can do to like save the planet? I'm like, maybe like, what's the first thing you can do? So I think, okay, shrimp, here's the rundown. Let me just say one thing before we move on, because I know you got shrimp covered with your eyes closed. I feel like if people believe that they are just getting the first homework assignment of a never-ending list, it doesn't have to be hard work. I'm just saying, if that's the way it's framed, if they're like, one little thing isn't good enough, they'll be like, you know what, then I'm out. If this is Pandora's box that is, and I'm never going to get positive reinforcement, then I'm just not going to do anything, because why would I? Who said you were getting positive reinforcement? I will be so proud of you when you do that one thing. I imagine what happens when you do 10 things, how proud of you, I will be. I get it. It's this human behavior thing, and I've definitely grumbled that if I wanted to be useful, I should have gotten into green. This is all about how people make decisions, and what motivates people. I'm not an expert in that, but I know that if we each do one little thing, we will not solve the entire climate crisis and prevent apocalypse. Figuring out that's why the Venn diagram is like, what brings you joy? Do it more than once. I'm here for the delights and the positive reinforcement, and I would say that one way to make that happen is to not do it alone. Do this with your homies. Do this with your family. Do this with your friends. Do this with your group texts. Find a thing that you all enjoy doing. There's a very cool website that Patagonia made, Full Disclosure, and on their board, that's called Action Works. It's what they call skill-based volunteering. You can go to the website and search by the things that you're good at. I'm good at video editing. Great, this nonprofit needs help making a video about installing bike lanes in the community, or you're good at event planning. You're like, "Oh, this nonprofit's doing a thing. I could volunteer and help them do that." Or, "Oh, this other group needs help with their accounting. They just don't have that expertise in house, and you're an accountant. You can help with that." I think things like that that feel specifically useful can often keep us going. You're contributing to something that's bigger, and maybe you like working with those people. Maybe they're delightful. And then we have also things like Shrimp, which is for me, I will say, it's not just one simple thing, and then you're done. It's a way to trick people into thinking more about these things. That's it. And then you've opened the door, so to speak. Shrimp, I'll just give my personal quick take. I read this today, and I was like, "Oh, my friend talked. I remember a friend talking about this, and the fact that the matter is..." Yeah, the bomber. I have shrimp, but I don't need shrimp. I don't like them that much.


Shrimp (01:37:05)

It's easy for me to avoid in the same way that I saw my octopus teacher, and I was like, "I don't need de-octopus. He's willing to depend." Absolutely do not. I don't need octopus. You need them alive in the ocean being charming and weird. Yeah, so shrimp. I keep stumbling. I keep interfering. So shrimp, if there's one seafood, you should probably stop eating. It is the most popular seafood in America, which is shrimp. There's basically two ways that it gets to your plate, and they're both horrible. There's very minor exceptions, but you'll know if you're part of the exception, because you'll be paying a lot of money for these very special shrimp. But in general, shrimp either comes from the wild ocean, in which case there's a net that's dragged along the sea floor. And shrimp are pretty tiny, so it's a pretty fine mesh net, so it's catching everything else that's there. And sort of bulldozing the sea floor habitat. And all of that stuff that they pull up, most of it sometimes is like 10% shrimp. And so the rest is often thrown back dead or dies because it's coming up from such depth that it basically gets decompression sickness, all these fish. And so the waste associated with that type of fishing is enormous. And habitat damage is really significant, and also often the labor practices on those boats are truly horrific. And then on the flip side, you can farm shrimp, aquaculture in coastal ponds. And to do that, which is mostly happening in Southeast Asia, they're bulldozing the mangroves, which are ecosystems that absorb a lot of carbon and protect the shorelines from things like tsunamis. Maybe 10 or 15 years ago, places that had intact mangroves actually did much better than places that didn't have a natural barrier left. And so you're bulldozing this ecosystem, which is also the habitat for all the juvenile fish that you would otherwise be catching off shorts, they're nursery. And you're putting in these high density ponds of shrimp, and you're feeding them all those food, and all the shrimp are pooping, and then they're all getting diseases, and you're putting antibiotics and things to kill life. And all these chemicals, and it's polluting the local environment. And I don't really want to eat shrimp that's grown that way. And then often in the processing side of things, enslaved people are used to peel those shrimp. If you get like pre-peeled frozen shrimp from Southeast Asia, I would not feel good about eating that for people or the planet. So that's why I'm like, "Ah, let's just stop with the shrimp." Unless it's like Oregon Trap Caught Pink Shrimp, or like recirculating aquaculture Florida shrimp, right? But those are sort of fancy, and you'll know if that's what you're getting. I know it's a bummer shrimp cocktail, like very iconic, but they're also kind of like eating us. It's so easy to warm something else. Yeah, let's move past it. I know eating bugs is cool and high protein and low impact, but not really. As someone who has eaten a fair number of crickets, I take offense, although interestingly enough, if someone has a shellfish allergy, they should also not eat any insect-based proteins, because the allergy is the same. So if you can't eat shrimp, don't eat too many arthropods elsewhere. Let me ask you, and we're going to wrap up in a few minutes. I know this has gone plenty long, so thank you very much for that. I look forward to you editing it down to its essence. We'll see. We'll see. Probably won't do too much editing. I'm no gimlet. Well, Dr. Johnson, do you go by Dr. Johnson? Is it Dr. Elizabeth Johnson? Dr. Ayana Elizabeth Johnson, I know it would be the full. Yeah, Dr. Johnson, occasionally. I mean, you know, sometimes a little gravitas doesn't hurt when you're trying to get your opinions heard. But you may call me Ayana. Oh, thank you, Ayana. It's a beautiful flower. Is that what your name is? Yeah, it does. Which was very stressful for me for a while, because I was like, "Oh, that's a lot of pressure." But turns out there's a lot of different flowers, and they're all beautiful, and it's not this sort of singular thing. So now I'm cool with it. It's a great name. So we could talk for many, many more hours. There are all sorts of things I'd love to ask you about. We talked a bit about offshore renewable energy, marine ecosystems, algae biofuel. We didn't really get into regenerative ocean farming. We talked about a little bit, but we're already at two hours. Roughly, I don't want to chew up your entire day.


Parting thoughts (01:41:33)

What would you like to, before we close up, mention, if anything, any requests of the audience, anything you'd like to point people to, any complaints about the podcast you'd like to lodge publicly, anything at all? This is like a question I should have an answer to, huh? I mean, I sort of mention much of this stuff, right? It's an environmental voter project, taking your role as a citizen seriously, thinking about Patagonia's action works to think about ways that you can volunteer using your specific skills. There's also a website called Climate Base. If you are inspired to look for a job more directly in the climate sector, that's a great list of job announcements there at climatebase.org. Obviously, if folks are curious about all these podcast episodes, we're mentioning how to save a planet on Spotify. I miss that crew all the time. They are cranking them out and explaining stuff and telling us every week what we should do to help. And I guess I would say, for those who have trouble seeing where they might fit into climate solutions, I know this is kind of lame, but I would recommend the book that I co-edited. With Dr. Katherine Wilkinson, which is called All We Can Save, and the subtitle is Truth, Courage, and Solutions for the Climate Crisis. So it's very forward looking, and it'll give you these examples of all these different ways that people have creatively found to be a part of this transformation that we need to have. And there's some comics and poems and stuff in there, too. So it sort of works on whatever level you want to approach it with on a given day. And that I found really interesting to help to curate because I really see it as like 40 essays or 40 different doors into how we can participate in climate solutions. It's not just solar panels and electric cars, although I like both of those things. There's a lot more to this. And what I'm doing next, which I would say I guess like, keep your eye out, is I'm going to stop doing interviews on other people's podcasts and write the book that I was supposed to do. That I was supposed to write last year, which is tentatively titled What If We Get It Right? And it's entirely focused on talking about the futures that we could have if we charge a hug with all these solutions that we have at our fingertips. So this vision of climate futurism. And I think that question is so powerful. Like, what if we get it right? Like, what if we do what we're supposed to do? Like, show me that it's worth the effort because it is effort and change is hard and like humans are not often that interchange. And so thinking about it through that lens, I find to be really energizing like, what if we get it right, you guys? Like, wouldn't that be great? They don't want to be a part of that. And so I'll be doing interviews as a big part of that book. And I'm collaborating with artists. I have this very cool fellowship through the Headland Center for the Arts to have artists help to visualize some of the themes that I'm working with. And so I would just encourage everyone to think about that question. What is the future that we want? And how can you be a part of shaping that as opposed to fighting the past or like the bad guys or against fossil fuels or whatever? Like, what are you for? What do you want to see more of? That is an excellent title. I'm looking forward to that. That's a great title.


AyanaAdditional Resources (01:45:03)

Also, you know, good times are helpful. 2023, stay tuned. And people can learn more about all we can save at allwecansave.earth. Pretty good URL. Yeah. That is a great URL. They can find you on Twitter and Instagram @ayanaaliza as in Elizabeth. And they can find you on your website, Ayanaalizabeth.com. There's UrbanOceanLab.org. And then as I mentioned, allwecansave.earth. How much fun. This has been great. Hopefully it wasn't too... Thanks so much for having me. Punishing. And you're... And boring. Sturdy questions. Thank you. I'm all about sturdy questions. And anything else you would like to add? Step it up, Tim. We need you. I'm working on it. And I am going to be stepping it up. Thank you so much. Dr. Johnson. You can drunk text me. Do you need some hot climate action solution tips? Oh boy, oh boy. You have drunk texting. That is another. If you're going to ask what superparrot did I get from my parents, it might be drunk texting. Not to be under-rated. That sort of like... That clarity. That truth telling. That's not a truth. That's not a truth. That's not a truth telling. The mess of reality that we all navigate. Sometimes you need a drunk text or two. And for everybody listening, thank you for tuning in. You can find the show notes, links to everything that we have discussed, and more at Tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, thank you for tuning in.


Five Bullet Friday (01:46:45)

Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter, called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles on reading, books on reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcasts. Guests and these strange esoteric things end up in my field. And then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short. A little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog/Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog/Friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening.


AG1 by Athletic Greens (01:47:54)

This episode is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I get asked all the time what I would take if I could only take one supplement. I would ask this for years. The answer is invariably, A.G.1 by Athletic Greens. I view it as all-in-one nutritional insurance. So you can cover your bases. If you're traveling, if you're just busy, if you're not sure if your meal is where they should be, it covers your bases. I've recommended it since the 4-hour body, which was got, a yearn's ago, 2010, and I did not get paid to do so. With approximately 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients, you'll be hard pressed to find a more nutrient-dense formula on the market. It has a multibitamin, multi-mineral greens complex, probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, an immunity formula that just depends on enzymes and adaptogens. You get the idea. It is very, very comprehensive. And I do my best, of course, to focus on nutrient-dense, proper meals, but sometimes you're busy, sometimes you're traveling, sometimes you just want to make sure that you're getting what you need. A.G.1 makes it easy to get a lot of nutrition when whole foods aren't readily available, it's also NSF certified for sport, making it safe for competitive athletes, as what's on the label is in the powder. It's the ultimate all-in-one nutritional supplement bundle in one easy scoop. Right now, Athletic Greens is giving my audience a special offer on top of their all-in-one formula, which is a free vitamin D supplement and five free travel packs with your first subscription purchase. Many of us are deficient in vitamin D. I've found that true for myself, which is usually produced in our bodies from sun exposure. So, adding a vitamin D supplement to your daily routine is a great option for additional immune support, support your immunity, gut health, and energy by visiting athleticgreens.com/tim. You'll receive up to a year's supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your subscription. Again, that's athleticgreens.com/tim.


Product Promotions

Pique Tea Crystals (01:49:54)

This episode is brought to you by Peak T. That's P-I-Q-U-E. I have had so much T in my life. I've been to China. I've lived in China. In Japan, I've done tea tours. I drink a lot of tea. And 10 years plus of physical experimentation and tracking has shown me many things, chief among them, gut health is critical to just about everything and you'll see where tea is going to tie into this. It affects immune function, weight management, mental performance, emotional health, you name it. I've been drinking fermented poo air tea specifically pretty much every day for years now. Poo air tea delivers more polyphenols and probiotics than you can shake a stick at. It's like providing the optimal fertilizer to your microbiome. The problem with good poo air is that it's hard to source. It's hard to find real poo air that hasn't been exposed to pesticides and other nasties, which is super common. That's why peaks for mentored poo air tea crystals have become my daily go-to. It's so simple. They have so many benefits that I'm going to get into. I first learned about them through my friends Dr. Peter Itia and Kevin Rose. Peak crystals are cold extracted using only wild harvested leaves from 250 year old tea trees. I often kickstart my mornings with their poo air green tea, their poo air black tea, and I alternate between the two. The rich earthy flavor of the black specifically is amazing. It's very, very, it's like a delicious barnyard. Very peaty if you like whiskey and stuff like that. They triple toxin screen all of their products for heavy metals, pesticides, and toxic mold, contaminants commonly found in tea. There's also zero prep for brewing required as the crystals dissolve in seconds so you can just drop it into your hot tea or I also make iced tea and that saves a ton of time and hassle. So, peak is offering 15% off their poo air tees for the very first time, exclusive to you, my listeners. This is a sweet offer. Simply visit peak tea.com/tim. That's P-I-Q-U-E-T-E-A.com/tim. This promotion is only available to listeners of this podcast. That's peak tea.com/tim. The discount is automatically applied when you use that URL. You also have a 30 day satisfaction guarantee so your purchase is risk free. One more time, check it out. Peak tea. That's P-I-Q-U-E-T-E-A.com/tim.


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