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This episode is brought to you by roka makers of the world's most versatile eyewear i am incredibly impressed with roka actually the quality is outstanding and a lot of my friends who are lead athletes. Also wear them that's how i was introduced to them i like to stay active a lot of long term listeners will know this and my eyewear has to be up to the task brands that make everyday eyewear sunglasses and glasses. Don't generally build them for people who are really on the move a lot so you have to wear clunky shades on a run deal with glasses that slip off your face or buy some kind of sports specific frames. Roka has fixed all that by packing the same features used in eyewear for Olympic gold medalists and world champions into stylish everyday sunglasses eyeglasses and reading glasses so you get more with less it's an elegant solution with roka one pair does it all you can go from work to work out to dinner with friends without ever needing to be. 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Rokas ultra lightweight no slip fit and advanced lens coatings combined with their exceptional style actually have many other styles as mentioned to also make these a favorite for a lot of my friends you have heard about them from Andrew Huberman and many others. There are a lot of people wearing these things the quality as i mentioned before is really outstanding they're very very durable and with more than 19,000 5 star reviews can't wait till they get to 20,000 that will be a celebration i bet. But with more than 19,000 5 star reviews roka has created a solution that active people love plus they hand build their glasses sunglasses and reading glasses all in the USA. Check out my favorite frames and get 20% off of your first order using code Tim20 that's t i m 20 at roka.com that's code Tim20 at roka.com are okay a.com. This is brought to you by shop of five shop of five is my favorite companies out there one of my favorite platforms ever. And let's get into it shop of five is a platform as i mentioned designed for anyone to sell anything anywhere giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business so does that means in no time flat you can have a great looking online store. The brings your ideas products and so on to life and you can have the tools to manage your day to day business and drive sales. This is all possible without any coding or design experience whatsoever shop of i instantly let's accept all major payment methods shop of five thousands of integrations and third party apps from on demand printing to accounting to advance chat bots anything you can imagine. They probably have a way to plug and play and make it happen shop of five is what i wish i had had when i was venturing into e-commerce way back in the early two thousands. What they've done is pretty remarkable i first met the founder Toby in two thousand eight when i became an advisor and it's been spectacular. I've loved watching shop of i go from roughly 10 to 15 employees at the time to seven thousand plus today serving customers in one hundred seventy five countries with total sales on the platform exceeding four hundred billion dollars they power. Millions of entrepreneurs from their first sale all the way to full scale and you recognize a lot of large companies also use them who started small. So get started by building and customizing your online store again with no coding or design experience required access powerful tools to help you find customers drive sales and manage your day to day. Gain knowledge and confidence with extensive resources to help you succeed and i've actually been involved with some of that way back in the day which was awesome the build a business competition and other things plus with 24 seven support. You're never alone and let's face it being an entrepreneur can be lonely but you have support you have resources you don't need to feel alone in this case more than a store shop of five grows with you and they never stop innovating. Providing more and more tools to make your business better in your life easier go to shop of i dot com slash tim to sign up for a one dollar per month trial period it is a great deal for a great service so encourage you to check it out take your business to the next level today and learn more by visiting shop of i dot com slash tim. One more time shop of i dot com slash tim all lower case. At this altitude i can run flat out for a half mile before my hands are shake. When i also post a question. Now we're the same and i'm from pittin. I'm a cybernetic organism living to show a metal anthoskeleton. Lady Tim Ferris Show. Hello boys and girls ladies and germs this is tim ferris welcome to another episode of the tim ferris show where it's my job to interview and attempt to deconstruct. World class performers from all different domains whether it's military chess art music. And in this case entrepreneurship and technology my guest today is dustin moskovitz you can find him on twitter at mosko v so m o s k o v. Dustin is co founder and CEO at asana a leading work management platform for teams asanas mission is to help humanity thrive by enabling all teams to work together effortlessly. Prior to asana he co founded facebook and was a key leader within the technical staff first in the position of cto and then later as vp of engineering. Dustin attended harvard university as an economics major for two years before moving to paul alto california to work full time at facebook and there is a lot more to his bio. We do explore a lot in this conversation but before i get to that you can find us on a saana dot com asana dot com and as mentioned before you can find us on twitter at mosko v m o s k o v. And i should just mention a few of the things we touch upon we dive into energy management we talk about coaching and really performing for endurance we talk about no meeting wednesday as part of energy management. Understanding the real risks of a i the real perhaps existential risks of a i and it's counterpart which is embracing the benefits the frictionless work that might be possible. With a current integrations what that looks like the value of holding stories loosely how to communicate and resolve conflict more effectively. The fifteen commitments of conscious leadership we get into a lot in this conversation we also talk about self care physical and otherwise we touch upon. Pretty much every facet of work life balance and work life performance in addition to all of that we added a number of resources to the show notes which you can find a tim dot blog podcast. Including dustins book recommendations and time budget template this is a spreadsheet that you can use yourself and i don't believe he shared these things publicly before. So there's a lot to dig into and without further do please enjoy a wide ranging conversation with none other than dustin moscow bits. Dustin nice to see you and nice to reconnect thanks for making the time absolutely great to be here time i would.
Exploring Dustin'S Life Hacks And Work Ethics
The Back Buddy. (08:17)
Like to begin with a device in common and to manipulation tool to actually sitting right next to me i have this anywhere i might happen to be and for those who can't see it. It looks almost like i would say an s made of hard plastic it's about let's just call it. Two and a half three feet long with all sorts of knobs and and i'd shape things sticking out of it what is it that i'm holding up and i have you to thank for introducing me to it so let's explain to folks what we're talking about. Yeah of course this is the back buddy to massage tool i have my own right here as well and similarly wherever i go i have home in the gym i travel with a sort of collapsible version. So this is something that's i first found maybe 10 years ago i think literally just by trying to look at the highest rated amazon products and i was like wow this thing has like the time like 45,000 ratings and it was near five star rating i thought this must be great. And so i got one and it's been almost a love affair ever since i really got to just kind of know it better and better over time and you know even last night i found like a new kind of angle that really got into you know under my shoulder blade and just the right way. And really appreciate it there's other products like this like the therucane i tried them i'm sure some of them are almost as good but this is the one i really love. They're also the really cheap i think they're about $30 and they're completely indestructible i still have the first one i bought 10 years ago in addition to probably not. So it's my favorite among many of these kind of tools. I've been very impressed just last little bit on the on the back buddy using these two very close together knobs for the back of the neck the neck extensors i've been shocked how effective it is. For not just relaxing my neck for extension but even rotation spending 30 seconds on it is surprising and. For 30% off use back buddy dot com slash to know there's no affiliation or anything with the company but it is a good tool now before we start recording i was mentioning. Some lower back pain that i'm contending with and you had responded that i think you've written an article on. Addressing back pain and you mentioned specifically light came patches and this happens to be the second time light came patches have come up in the last 24 hours for the first time in my life. Would you mind expanding on that just a little bit. Yeah so i spent a lot of my 20's doing the classic throw your back thing you know innocuous ways like. One time i did it was these and i have been like time like i had like my legs across. And this very frustrating you throw your back and you're sort of late up for 3 or 4 days so definitely went deep on just trying to get advice on what to do and. That can lead you in a lot of directions including to psychological mechanisms like the doctor sarno stuff. And also i just became very acutely aware of it so i could sort of feel. My back feels like a little tweaked right now that's usually what it feels like you know couple days before this injury happens the secute thing and so. I learned that when that happens i need to address it either need to relax or needs to yoga or something like that and eventually i found these light came patches first i bought. The biofreeze ones which are meant all by they work great to their basically equivalent but they have a smell and my wife really dislikes it the light came ones. Have the same impact but they don't have a smell so i really like those and it basically if you feel this week or just now i use them all the time like after workout just slap it on my lower back. Wear it for 6 or 7 hours and usually that just helps things really release even if i'm still sitting up during that 6 or 7 hours not doing anything special. And usually i'll have a pretty good back crack at the end of that or something like that i also love to put on kind of between my shoulder blades again for the for the next tension. And it just feels like this incredible hack it's totally topical so it doesn't mess with your head or make you you know traw all see or anything like that. And yeah i just really love them i buy them probably 20 a month or something like that this point. So i want to explain also for folks who may be listening why most likely we're not sharing video maybe we'll share video of me and some animal avatar that is of your choosing but the reason i bring this up is.
A user’s guide to Dustin. (12:38)
In prep your team sent me a fascinating document that i almost certainly am going to try to emulate because i have been in the process of. Hiring recently and this is a guide this is a guide to you it's like a user's guide for dustin and i just want to read a few of the. Suppose line items on the table of contents briefly if you don't mind. How i view success how i communicate as an example as a subcategory under that writing is thinking. Meetings one on one screw meeting scheduling etc personality and we might come back to this any of them type five intro version motivation management style hands off candor. Underneath that miscellaneous what gains and loses my trust revisiting past decisions holding stories lightly and then things dustin hates now. On the it almost looks like a mood board which i really appreciate on the on the page of things dustin hates. Is included being videotaped so could you please give some context on when you first created this document and for what purpose you created this document. I think there was a sort of phase where a lot of people were doing this and publishing online. And it's a coincided with the real catalyst for me was a book i can't remember the title i think it's the making of a manager but it's by julie zoo. Who's an old colleague from facebook at the time and she was on the design leads there a great to sort of tactical book on how to be a manager includes julie's you know sort of guide to you and in the book it's sort of framed as this is for your immediate reports and i originally wrote. The stock or thong just for my team they said hey this is great really love for the whole company to actually be exposed to this. Into now it's included on boarding i don't really know how many is on is actually go through the whole thing and on boarding but i tried to make it kind of fun and interesting to read so hopefully some of them would. And part of the reason we did that is because i have some quirks and introvert and a CEO role and i care a lot about managing my energy and kind of what i think of is this this extra version budget almost like a. Video game energy bar for me that trains down and so especially on a binder who's the head of people here to sauna just really encouraged me hey. Just a lot easier for everyone manager budget if they understand how it works and so the more people know about you the better and so i put it out there and then the things i hate list. I was also sort of created that that's a screenshot of the sauna board and originally created that just for fun with my team a few of them also have one. And you know they are also like this is great insight to personality so you should include it and in the actual sauna board you click and i've got like some snarky comments about each of the things. Yeah just for fun at the bottom there but it does include some things that happen to be energy trains as well and you know video taking time there. Let me if you don't mind drilling to just a few of these that i'm very fascinated by that i'm going to highlight for myself.
Coaching for endurance. (15:49)
Just in terms of revisiting systems in my own company under management stall you have coach for endurance would you mind explaining what that means what that item describes or covers. You know generally i think a lot of what i've learned is a leader over time is just how much of a marathon the work really is and i think that. A lot of culture and tech industry encourages you to spread just as much as possible and really focuses on short term productivity measures. And the consequence of that is people burn out and so you know definitely something we experience a facebook and i saw a small from time to time. Is when people leave the company they're not necessarily going somewhere else the kind of retiring or they're taking along sabbatical they've sort of decided in order to have a good break actually have to quit entirely i can't. Just do a two or three week break and come back and it will be too stressful to even have the mental overhead of what's waiting for me. And so you know when we're setting out to do a sauna we knew it was a big project you know it's enterprise collaboration software. Takes a really long time to build a business around not only a new product but our case a new category and so we know it wouldn't be a three or four year thing and i put the company or something like that and be in it for a long time now it's been thirteen or fourteen years. And i still have a really long runway in front of me and so a lot of my mentality is just i've got to be able to keep going for as long as possible not burn out and i want that for as much as my team is possible because i really have the value. Institutional knowledge and the strength you get from having high trust relationships and so i really try to coach my team around that and i encourage them to do that with their leads and so on throughout the organization. One of my favorite phrases is like don't let the long breaks getting away at the small breaks so sometimes people are like i'm like a year from now i'm gonna take us a bad call and. Kind of get this mentality of i'm going to work really hard for the next year it's like no you should still take like a three day weekend you know you vacation or so before that. And just like breaks during your day as well take your your nights and your weekends and all of that is important so it's almost like a fractal of balance between rest and work and i think you have to actually coach people to do that they don't necessarily do it naturally. Yeah that's actually been one of the biggest challenges for me personally is that i tend to hire very hungry. Go getters and sometimes even despite my encouraging to embrace self care various types they bring the candle both ends and burn up they burn themselves out and i've experienced that personally. But it's easy to i suppose take for granted that people automatically do that which is in my experience not always the case if you get someone who's really a hard driver.
Making quicker decisions. (18:43)
On the topic of energy budgeting or thinking about energy management. You've listed a lot of lessons over the years and there's a lot on wavelength dot a son of a calm that i'd encourage people to check out what i wanted to ask you about is. Not letting decisions linger for too long which can be energy training so let me just read something so that you don't have to. Feel like you're on the spot at a congressional hearing something and here's a an excerpt from one of those posts and here's what it says. I've learned a lot of the years but here are few key learnings that i employ regularly in no specific order and i may come back to a few these all just read the five number one. Not delegating enough is bad for me and bad for people who could be getting more autonomy learning more skills number two acknowledging that everyone else is a partner in what you're trying to do not enemy. Three recognizing that you agree with people more than you think you do. Where you disagree is probably a difference of input assumptions and not a real conflict i think come back to that one. But the one i want to ask about is for avoiding paradox of choice and making decisions even if you're unsure of what strictly is the best one at that very moment letting a decision linger for too long is energy training don't let perfect be. The enemy of good and then the last one is making sure there are regular checkpoints for reflection and there's time to think at a high level and not just be tactical all the time that's extremely important. So would you mind expanding if you can on what that ends up looking like. In terms of avoiding paradox of choice and making decisions perhaps more quickly because that is something i think i'm pretty good at the better than the average bear maybe but i still have a lot of room for improvement and my team is so small. The more open loops we have the more exhausting is for everyone specially me so i'd love to hear you say more about that. Yeah you know some of this is aspirational like i think we get in these long decision loops as well especially at work. First you should explain the paradox of choice to do you think you're sure please.
Avoiding paradox of choice. (20:45)
Part of the paradox of choice is just this idea that you have a choice between two things longer you consider them both or even being exposed to the second choice. Kind of makes you devalue either outcome if you choose a thing you're always thinking about what could have been with path b and vice versa and there's some really interesting. Psychological research people done sort of proving this and control settings and so you kind of don't want to indulge that mindset if you can avoid it and i think the easiest way to do that is to just pick your battles so at my level. That involves often you know maybe just saying i don't care i don't have a preference certainly my personal life i try to do that is often as possible. No my wife is always show me art for the house or something and it's just like. If i don't have a strong opinion i don't express any opinion at all which is worse for her often she want me to but. You know i prefer not to kind of like bind my preference if i don't have to and the sort of other flip side of this is often the choices that are hardest. I'm not at the least exactly this way the outcomes are going to be really similar turns out you didn't have a strong opinion and she shouldn't spend too much energy on that. So pick your battles is sort of the first way of going about it and then the second is delegate where possible. And so you know it doesn't have to be my choice in the first place and it's good to empower people you have to be a little careful because if it's one of these the outcomes are similar. You have to coach that person to because they might end up locked in the same sort of trap of thinking about it too long and getting trained things like that. And then the third is you know being really clear about your goals we try and start every meeting with not only what are the goals of the project we're talking about what are the goals of this meeting with decisions we try to make. And being as clear as possible about what those decisions are and when they need to be made and putting deadlines on them i have to praise i saw the best light i've ever seen and a meeting the other day that was just a list of. Key questions and it was like these questions need to be answered by august 15 these by september 1st is by september 15th and they had recommendations on the first set and i was like great let's just answer the first 6 right now in this meeting we did we got through some of the september 1st ones as well and if every meeting could have that slide i think we'd be in really good shape. I guess that strikes be sort of a really helpful proxy for what are the goals of this meeting if people some how have difficulty translating that because it seems to abstract than just asking what are the key questions we have to answer in this meeting. Sort of seems to perhaps get to a lot of the same ground if we come back to delegating for a moment and this is going to be looking in the rear view mirror probably could be current day but i'm wondering since this is also a growth area for me.
Difficult but desirable delegation. (23:20)
Before taking something that could be viewed as a problem and trying to paint it as part of an opportunity this is an area where i feel like i can still improve a lot. Where there any particular examples any any concrete examples you give of things it you. Found hard to delegate at any point that ultimately were very valuable to delegate could be any type of example could be a category could be something specific just to maybe illustrate. Overcoming that type of friction it's a tough question i think that in some sense it's just an evolution of at the beginning of a sauna i just don't everything i had to consciously. Decide to delegate and often did it too late and needed to sort of hit a breaking point and need to. Just kind of the clear bank update on something but looking back a lot of those just ended up being effective and good to delegate but i used to do. Everything from guiding and presenting it almost every all hands like all that presentation content was me and and now most often in the audience i got a short bit from showing up to the q amp a. I used to do kind of like the year review trying read about what happened like every goal of common every project and just as the organization scale just as much and. How to do that more different levels of abstraction run kind of doing the very highest level one and you know i hear these stories about a lot of startups with like a thousand people and say well that the founders and every interview to make sure this person to fit and. Things like that i gave up on you know long ago you know part of it just takes i love to make these little spreadsheet models and i have one that's just sort of showing me how you use my time based on what the recurring meetings are and some things i.
The time-saving spreadsheet. (25:08)
We're gonna happen week to week or month to month and i try to go back to it on me annual basis and that can sort of help me see. Here is a big time suck and it's just out of proportion tonight somehow reduce this to be more appropriate use of my time or give it somebody else and that kind of helps me each step of the way i don't know if there's anything in particular. That felt like a you know sort of ripping out of my heart or something like that. How do you create or populate the spreadsheet it's one of those things that in theory to me for instance sound so. Appealing yet i would worry that because of task switching just the number of things floating around in my life that the simple act of inputting into a spreadsheet would consume a vast amount of time how do you fill in that spreadsheet what does it look like in terms of formatting. I actually made it to a template we can share and part of the amazing great yeah it sort of starts with here the hours for work here the hours for home. Here the hours for sleep so i got that sort of biggest pie chart and then for work i have a tab that's like here my recurring meetings this is how frequently they happen this is how long they are. And some cases i have prep time for example we have a board meeting quarterly it is a three and a half hour meeting i need two hours of prep there's also some committee meetings. And so this is a more time is out to something like two hours a month or something like that. We're like thirty minutes a week so it becomes a part of the chunk and. Those things don't change very often and are really kind of the bulk of it and where the most leverage is in changing something. So i think that those end up adding up to like something like thirty percent of the work time. And then i have another tab that is more you know more abstract like responding to things in slack and i just like swag estimate for how long i spend on that per week. Or you know interacting with customers and those come up on the customer skates i don't have like a set block my calendar for that but i look back maybe over the past month or two and just sort of like estimate. Looking backwards how much time i spent and then what's left i just sort of count as this is that time this is focused time and try and sort of got checked is this feel right to remind getting myself about something and look for. Other sources of time and that led me to add in my lunch hour and coffee breaks and stuff like that and you know it's hard the first time but then every year i'm kind of just like tweaking it and. That part no it takes twenty minutes or so now are you setting i'm gonna get fancy here just so i can sound smart are using ok ours or are you after reviewing spreadsheets saying you know what for the next month or next quarter i want to hit these percentages i guess i'm wondering what the. Assessment looks like if you have questions you're trying to answer when you review the spreadsheet just what that process looks like for you. I don't think i'm quite that quantitative about it we have ok ours of the sauna and one thing i do with the help of my my assistant orin. Is i look at my coming month and i try to organize it under the company objectives and so some of the objectives are about. Financial management and that includes all my time engaging with investors and with the finance team here some of it's about the product some of it's about engaging with customers if i do have customer meetings that's kind of slotting in there. I think that's a good monthly checkpoint for him i personally contributing to the goals right i think i'm leverage sometimes the sections look too long sometimes they look too short and can kind of course correct from there. I try not to have too many fixed rules other than. My sort of energy gauge my trending towards burn out your not to i have the energy to do the things i need to do and a lot of that more is sort of day to day and week to week management and again my assistant does a big part of that. Make sure i don't get overloaded too much.
No Meeting Wednesdays. (29:12)
God bless your assistant yet the people think of me is an extra but i am very very introverted in terms of energy management i also have to budget for that but i am such a dancing bear on stage playing extra vert that i can commit to things that are. So antithetical to my actual programming but i want to come back to a few things so the first is just a definition of terms for folks so okay are. Stands for objectives and key results if you want to take a look at that john door has a book about it google also uses okay ours extensively and you can find a lot written. On that on the paradox of choice if people want to look more into that very short wrote a book called paradox of choice and there's the aspect that you described there's also the consideration of two. Many options right considering too many options in the decision fatigue that that can produce or just creating. An excess of decision making and it seems to me that number five on the list that i read earlier making sure they're regular check points for reflection there's time to think at a high level. Require some type of strategic or tactical move to actually implement right or the small things will just crowd out the big things so i have a few questions around that the first is do you still or do people at us on a still follow no meeting. Wednesday or is that sort of case by case and even if it's just past tense now if you could practice explain why that existed i think that would be helpful for folks. For me i still follow it quite religiously it is a bit case by case throughout the company and that often results from people trying to schedule meetings with me i'm not. What are you doing why aren't you doing the means that and yeah i come from two places one maybe i think it was two thousand eleven paul graham had this really famous blog post maker manager schedule. And it's just kind of pointing out that meetings end up on your calendar kind of at the best of management team leads and project managers and that is their entire day so they're just kind of like stacking their calendar and end. But i see is really especially in software really need these long focus blocks to get into their work they need to kind of like load up the context in their short term memory get into flow. And have a good you know ninety year hundred twenty minute session to get useful workout and so if you don't interfere the natural thing that happens is kind of. Your calendar gets chopped up and you don't have any of these two hour blocks you just have these half hour an hour blocks and. You get a little bit of work done and it's just overall suboptimal for individual productivity. So new Wednesday is sort of a hack of just we're going to synchronize everyone's calendar so that they don't have meeting locks on Wednesdays. A lot of people to sauna go further though add additional blocks maybe Tuesday and Thursday morning you know trying find a couple other maybe. Half day or third of a day segments where they can try to keep their calendar clear and everyone else tries to respect this as much as they can course things happen customer meetings happen you're not always in control that. But we try to our best so partly it's just about having those focus blocks and partly it's about having you know long enough blocks to get into some deep thinking work and you know be able to have these longer periods of reflection. And you know I just find even as a manager if I have just a half hour an hour I'm gonna do something small something tactical just like in the most productive it's hard to get into that deep thinking state so that's really what it's all about. Yeah totally and I want to just mention for people may want to look it up again the maker schedule manager schedule my paul Graham who's. I guess fair does co founder of why combinator people may be familiar with that that article as well as are say essay I guess. As well as the top idea in your mind are to that I have bookmarked to revisit constantly I really appreciate how concise and clear his thinking and as I also want to confirm. You did get the book title right for Julie Joe I'm not sure how she pronounces last in the making of a manager. I think it's you what you actually I think you speak Mandarin or something so maybe I should yeah. It could be out yeah could be any number of things so so Julie apologies again your name wrong but the title is the making of a manager. And the no meeting Wednesday brings up a question for me of weekly architecture I find that I do very well if I have some semblance of a weekly architecture so for instance we're recording on a Friday I tend to record.
Weekly architecture. (33:34)
Podcast if I record podcast Monday and Friday at 10 a.m. wherever I happen to be or roughly 3 p.m. wherever I happen to be and I found that. Just reduces so much complexity it makes communication much more smooth it makes planning in the long term much easier in terms of blocking out time over a month a quarter etc. And then there are say for instance for me team calls and everything happen on a Tuesday that's all formatted in a certain way. Do you have a particular weekly architecture that you aim for or that during periods of high productivity that you followed. Well I think that the weekly cadence like including the meeting Wednesday really defines a lot a lot falls out from that so sauna has office centric hybrid policy so we're. Wednesday since they have no meetings you can work from home totally fluid Fridays are also pretty fluid and you know I'm here on a Friday but. Relatively will tend and so Monday Tuesday Thursday is when a lot of our meetings are going to happen including my team meets Tuesday afternoon and you know I'd love to say I designed that for a particular reason but really that's when our calendars align in the right kind of. And then you know I mentioned I have the kind of Tuesday Thursday morning workbox for getting more stuff done and between those and Wednesday that sort of the me time I see time. And then most of the rest of Monday Tuesday Thursday will be meetings I see as individual contributor yes you know I think of it as you can be an I see in your manager role as well it's like when you're not meeting your producing things coaching people. And then Friday partially because I really prefer in person meetings ends up being pretty light as well even though I'm here just like a couple meetings and a lot of work block time as well.
Why Dustin prefers in-person meetings. (35:33)
Why do you prefer in person meetings. Well it's partially for the same reason I don't like being video recorded I find that part of my attention is lost in a video call and it depends a lot on the quality of the connection in the audio and the video. I don't know what your experiences like but you're quite pixelated for me right now and so it's like a little harder to pick up on your body language is emotional to use. And I just find after video call I'm so drained and if it's a team meeting I find the control flow very difficult very difficult for people to interrupt or interject they literally raise their hand to sort of put themselves in the queue. I just find it a lot less efficient than being in a room and having the more sort of natural cadence of dialogue and again the issues pop up in the team meetings to it's a disaster every time. I don't know three years into the pandemic and all the same problems from 2020 or so here but they are and I just like I can't look past it to feeling like it's good enough. Yeah you know I didn't really consider the energetic cost of what you're describing but it's true there is something as much as we try or hope that it will be natural that is unnatural about looking at the Brady bunch on the screen and trying to coordinate body language and cues. There's an energetic cost to that I want to come back to number three in the list that I mentioned and it's going to be a jumping off point so recognize that you agree with people more than you think you do where you disagree is probably a difference of input assumptions and not a real conflict.
The 15 Commitments to Conscious Leadership. (36:55)
I think this may tie into a question about conscious leadership which I would love to discuss and in your book recommendation list that you sent me. I do want to talk about the top recommendation at some point but at the there are two books that begin the list will leave the first as a cliffhanger for now so top recommendation is the beginning of infinity by David Deutsch I had on the podcast with nova robicon and I do want to ask you about that because that is not easy books read necessarily very interesting and then right below that is leadership and strategy and the first book is the 15 commitments to conscious leadership. How did you get introduced to conscious leadership or this book so I think it was. You know almost 12 or 14 years ago I went to an event Southern California I can remember where it had some great people there including the chat man and actually jack cornfield you have on the show last week. And it was kind of my first exposure to some of those people is pretty small group I think there are 15 people in the group and so really got to kind of know them and end up deciding to work with Diana as a personal coach and that led to more more I think this was even before the book was published. And then you know as we're starting to sauna it became just kind of the framework that we wanted everyone to learn. I think 15 commitments is really great I also think it's very similar to other frameworks but it's nice to have a similar set of language and this idea of holding stories lightly and understanding the other perspective more. It also relates to something jack brought up with with Byron Katie so she loves to. Preface any thought with I have a story that these are all kind of related ideas but having the 15 commitments is something very concrete and language like being above the line below the line. It's really helpful for everyone in the company to know what those terms mean so that you can shorten them and so now you'll go into a meeting. And somebody will be in a bad mood and frustrated about a decision we're making and they'll just voice out loud I'm a little bit about this I'm expressing some frustration but that doesn't mean stop what you're doing or I'm like throwing my body on the tracks it just means that that's where I'm at right now. I love to shift maybe you can help me shift but just be aware and so that's very useful and it comes up all the time in my one and ones with how I coach people in fact I start all my one and ones just with how are you feeling. Because often it will emerge well they're feeling a little line or something going on in their life and that's going to affect our conversation and I'd rather know about it than not. Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and will be right back to the show this episode is brought to you by wealth front there is a lot happening in the US and global economies right now a lot. That's an understatement are we in a recession is it a bear market what's going to happen with inflation so many questions so few answers I can't tell the future nobody can but I can tell you about a great place to earn more on your savings and that's. Wealthfront wealth front is an app that helps you save and invest your money right now you can earn 4.8 APY that's the annual percentage yield with the wealth front cash account that's more than 11 times more interest than if you left your money in a savings account at the average bank according to fdic. So why wait earn 4.8% on your cash today plus it's up to 5 million dollars in fdic insurance through partner banks and when you open an account today you'll get an extra $50 bonus with a deposit of $500 or more. There are already nearly half a million people using wealth front to save more earn more and build long term wealth so why wait visit wealthfront.com to get started that's wealthfront.com. This was a paid endorsement by wealth front. How have you worked with Diana who's great spent a decent amount not as much as you have but a decent amount of time with her she is one of a kind and very very good at what she does.
Working with Diana Chapman. (40:55)
How have you worked with her if you're open to discussing it to whatever extent one on one what does the format look like or what are you hoping to accomplish in working with her were you working with her mostly because of the amount of time. How have you worked with her mostly because you were basically test driving language and shared concepts that you hope to put into asana was it mostly individual in the beginning to add a personal interest. Yeah it's interesting it's changed over time I don't have a one on one coaching relationship with her at the moment but a lot of it you know when I first started I was a total novice on the connetments and a lot of stories I was holding tightly and they were impacting my energy because I believe them. And she really helped me a lot with that part of the reason I don't work with her anymore is like I kind of know what she's going to say every time. And so I'll take the back and forth on my own. Are you open to and if not that's okay and it could be a hypothetical but sharing a story that you held tightly and I think that would be useful. Yeah I mean I think the one that has been most difficult for me and I think is maybe universal for entrepreneurs in general is just this sense of huge responsibility to keep going and endure and persevere and do well by your employees in this sort of thing. And it's very easy to feel like you're trapped and that there's no other possibility you're kind of just you know, sisyphus as a leader and I don't want to scare my plays like I'm not like thinking about leaving right now but I think going through the coaching of this really helped because she would just constantly deny me on anything that I really believed like it would be terrible if a sauna had a different CEO and it's like well how's the opposite of that story true maybe a new CEO would you know bring in fresh perspective and like they'd have more energy like you know things like this or be terrible if the sauna shut down and all of our employees wasted all this time and part of their career doing it and she'd say well how's the opposite of that story true what about the experiences they got building asana what about the value your customers got while asana was alive and obviously I'm still there so it's not like this coaching led me to think I should leave asana shut it down but it helped me understand that I was choosing to be there every day is in some sense a new decision I can't just walk away tomorrow like that has other kinds of consequences that I choose not to accept but in the longer arc of time I have agency here the sauna employees have agency or customers have agency it's much more productive for me to engage with the problems from above the line rather than from this place of fear and scarcity and anxiety and you know there's time and place for that you also need to feel all feelings in the commitments framework but it's bad if it's just like always a Paul on every hour of every day and every decision and you want to not grip around those things and so it's useful sometimes to indulge and how is the story not true and you know with the anish she'll go all the way to fear of death you know imagine your own funeral like whatever your deepest anxiety is and just try and loosen your grip on that and for people who want maybe a name for the technique there's more to it and Diana has her own flavor and approach but the turnarounds that are often associated with Byron Katie people can find the work online and worksheets that are really helpful for this if you aren't able to work with someone like Diana the 15 commitments is also an excellent book and an excellent book not just for companies it's a great book if you want to improve your communication with your significant other which is actually how I used a whole large portion of that book with significant others I just want to add to the other thing it's a lot like his cognitive behavioral therapy so you know if you want to take a more western approach I think it gets at the same ends with very similar methods yeah totally one particular aspect of what Diana Chapman and Jim Detmer who book it on the podcast embrace that I have always well this is a story it's a part of this whole training it's like helps you to identify the stories but my story is that I have long struggled with having incredibly uncomfortable clearing conversations when there is a conflict or you
Communication And Personal Development Concepts
Clearing conversations. (45:10)
feel some resentment or whatever it might be and I think historically there's been a lot of fear for me around the consequences of trying to have an open conversation about these things so my question is how do you handle that if you implement it at Asana those types of clearing conversations or broadly speaking if this is easier just disagreements tension between or among employees and so on yeah it's a big company so I don't think it happens the same way everywhere but what I try and coach people to do and what I experience with my immediate team is that we do try and get into this mode you know it's a little bit of a conscious leadership it's a little bit non violent communication but very speaking unarguably reflecting back with the other person said to make sure that they feel understood I've definitely over the years my biggest takeaway with conflict is that people want to feel heard more than they want the decision change a lot of it is just you gotta make the space for that and if you're going to do some difficult change management you just got to accept that there's going to be some of that and it's important to do it at the right times you can't have everyone get involved before the decision is made but the people who especially need to be bought in and need to help you the change management after they kind of need to be heard before it's finalized and then even after it's communicated you know you're going to have to really listen to people on why they're disappointed or unhappy and reflect that back to them not just be a literal sounding board but actually be engaged in empathetic conversation that goes the longest way and sometimes people use you know conscious leadership has a literal clearing script the facts are when this happened I generated this story or I had these feelings and this is meant to explicitly get away from language like you did this and that made me feel angry you know the whole idea with conscious leadership is you're responsible for your own feelings and you know you're going to have a reaction that doesn't necessarily mean the person was trying to hurt you or that that's really what happened often it has to do with you know stuff from your past or your childhood or situations like that that you don't want to experience again and your body is bringing them up again and so just trying to bring some awareness to that bring it into the room there's two people in the conflict and there are different positions of power there are different positions with respect to the decision being made but they each need to play their role in a mindful way and be as above the line as they can and be present and that's really what we're going for the conscious leadership scripts are outstanding you do need some shared vocabulary to play that game with someone so they kind of need to be signed up for the same set of rules but can be super effective and I wanted to underscore non-violent communication by
Nonviolent Communication. (48:09)
Marshall Rosenberg I listened to the audiobook which I think has a peace sign a hand making a peace sign on it so don't necessarily be put off the covers a little bizarre but the format itself that plus conscious leadership in some of the scripts I'd say over the last three years have three to four years really changed how I approach communication in general and what I've experienced personally I'll try to keep this short but is having some type of structured way of thinking about how you are going to open a conversation also gives you a chance and maybe a catalyst to deescalate whatever emotion happens to be running really hot or really hard and the simple act of saying something inarguable starting with what I hear you saying is ABC did I get that right is there more and then having when X happened as a video camera would record it right when you wrote this sentence in this email I felt this the story I have around that is this would you be willing to agree to this having a request at the end it's remarkable what you can get accomplished especially if you have a history of being a bit of a bull in a china shop like I do the transformation is quite something sometimes when you're talking about this you get the sense of like everyone has to be a Zen monk and like totally in control of their emotions I also want to really emphasize you know one of the commitments is feel your feelings and sometimes that means like purposely going to those line as far as you can getting on the drama triangle making it playful and just like having it up really making that person like the biggest, scariest villain monster you can I really think that's an important part of it and everyone's going to have like a different way of doing it but you know I think if you try and you've talked about struggling with
Feel your feelings. (49:43)
anger management in the past I think I do that too if you try and solve that by withholding and containing all that anger you end up lower back pain and it still comes out anyway and it comes out in the wrong for a totally different situation that's unrelated to the thing you're really angry about it's really important to like go through that and part of the way I do that is maybe I'll just write it all out you know have like a Google Doc or a son of task and just kind of go crazy just stream of consciousness you know sometimes move your body hit things you know I really want to put that in there too is an important part of doing this well and then once you've processed your feelings and like move them through your body then you can have that about the line conversation yeah I appreciate you saying that it's a good reminder for me also that you know swinging from one extreme to the other and neglecting to express that stuff might very well contribute to my mysterious lower back pain so I promised listeners that I wouldn't leave them hanging with the cliffhanger on David Deutsch so would you mind explaining why that book features so prominently in your book recommendations and for people who want the title it's
The Beginning of Infinity. (51:10)
the beginning of infinity subtitle explanations that transform the world it's been a while since I've gone through it myself but I've read it probably three times first of all I find it just really fascinating and enjoyable before reading that book for a long time I said that Gertile Usher Bach was my favorite book but I had never finished it it's tough it's tough it's tough yeah but it's really entertaining and some of the ways that it's entertaining I think also future and beginning of infinity like he has these you know sections in between the chapters that are more narrative and fun without nearly as much math there's a little bit but it's not like a TV we have you know you have to have advanced math to get through it but the big lesson from it is this idea that problems are soluble we build on knowledge and no matter how immense a problem seems as long as it is possible to solve within the laws of natural physics it generally can be solved and over time you know we've had all these crisis moments in humanity where it's felt like that's not true there was a resource running out there was an irreconcilable conflict and people just couldn't see the way to the future and what happens is the pressure builds up and you get more and more attention on solving this problem and lo and behold it gets solved and sometimes the reason it's so scary is a form of status quo bias so people think everything will be exactly like it is now except we won't have to be able to solve it now except we won't have this important resource I think there's a story about a particular element that's needed that was needed for TVs in the 50s do you know what I'm talking about? I don't know I don't know that example the price of oil and oil supply would be another example yeah totally so like you know for a long time with energy people thought well we'd run out of oil at some point and that would be the end of energy of course we have all these alternative sources now that can supplant it and you know these are also solutions to CO2 problems the TV one is nice just because there was a while people didn't think you would be able to have the sort of cathode ray tube TVs anymore because the silent was going to go away and then now we have liquid crystal displays that don't involve the element at all and so this is an example of sasco bias because people couldn't imagine a different way to accomplish the goal of getting a crisp video image you know two people in a broadcast format and so you just go through a bunch of examples like that and gives you the sense of like you know how powerful humanity really is and what the power of compounding knowledge really is alright let's leave people to explore that book and certainly if they want to overview they can listen to the podcast with David Deutsch and myself and Navall Ravekon I let Navall do the heavy lifting
Effective altruism. (53:50)
on that one for a million in one reason but I do feel like the premise that problems are soluble or many problems are soluble is a good jumping off point to effective altruism you're one of the largest funders of effective altruism and I'd like to explore this and discuss it a bit could you begin maybe with just explaining for folks who don't know the term what effective altruism is and then you can take it wherever you like and I can also certainly help hop in. I feel the need to preface this with there's some disagreement about what it is so I'll tell you my perspective which I think it's really it's an idea and some people call it a movement but it's really it brings together people who are interested in asking the question how do we do the most good and that can take the form of philanthropic donations it can take the form of how you spend your career like maybe which nonprofit you would work for or in a lot of cases they're part of what's called earning to give and so they just choose a sort of normal career with a high paying job with the plan to then donate some of their earnings as effectively as they can and so that leads you to you know certain set of ideas so as a philanthropist I think of effective altruists as defined by cause agnosticism so that means rather than coming to philanthropy with what I care about is education or what I care about is climate you're coming with just the point of view I'd like to do the most good and that leads you to different places that sometimes look very strange because it turns out that when you're the next philanthropist on the margin the thing that does the most good is often something that's important that other people aren't doing for whatever reason you know it doesn't have enough attention or it's not as sexy or it requires really kind of going deep on the logic of why this is important and so you end up not doing the things that most other people are doing and so the overarching framework that we use for choosing cause areas is it has to be important hard to do to good without working on important things has to be tractable so it has to be possible to make progress and then it should be neglected so that you're doing good because this is the good that other people aren't doing so it's a form of sort of comparative advantage what would some examples be excited can imagine if I'm acting as a stand in for the audience they're like well how do you figure out what is most good or the greatest good for the greatest number of film the blank is it biased towards and measured in human lives is it some other metric how do you determine what is good would you mind giving a few examples of cause areas or specific projects that you've ended up landing on based on the type of vetting you're describing and this is where I think some of the subjectivity comes in because I don't think there's a one answer to what that metric is so the one that is sort of easiest to understand is global health and well being so we do a lot of work particularly in the developing world and that's where we're going to be around malaria is probably the single largest destination for our grant money and there it is often just measured in the number of lives saved or the equivalent so it's this idea of a quality adjusted life year that kind of lets you convert the value of helping somebody avoid or maybe takes years off their life or even increases their earning power how might you make that equivalent to helping a child make it past their fifth year because malaria bed nets are helping them avoid a fatal infection and so with global health and well being that's where you kind of have the most similarity in the goals and kind of trade off the different opportunities against each other in a fairly clean way though it can still get you know can still involve a lot of judgments so there's a lot of debate about whether the goal should be about mortality or perhaps subjective happiness or perhaps earning power which is a kind of like proxy for economic empowerment giving people as much choice in the world as possible but often you're debating things that are very similar you're going to help avoid a child death through malaria bed nets or perhaps through iodine a supplementation and they have pretty similar well maybe that's not a great example for avoiding a death avoiding intestinal worms like something that would really mess you up so that's an easy compare second big category is animal welfare and there we work especially on factory farm animal welfare because that's where a very large amount of the animals with either full consciousness or a great deal of consciousness live and die in the world I think I was reading a stat that is something like nine chickens are slaughtered every year for every human on earth so something close to a hundred million chickens and so if you can improve the welfare of those animals a little bit you can reduce quite a lot of suffering and that gets you to a very clear subjective point about the good because a lot of people will say this doesn't matter at all you should spend infinite money on helping one human before you think it all about these chickens or these cows and I think that's a judgment call I think it's fair that people have different points of view on that but from the perspective as a single a funder in the space it's something that we feel sympathetic to and then the last category is global catastrophic risks so these are it's been a debate about the name recently but I think the clearest definition is these are things that actually cause extinction or cause modern civilization to be set back two thousand years something really catastrophic and this gets debated for a lot of reasons but the philosophical point is sort of whether you care about the seizing of life or if you just care about suffering you know you can take the point of view that it's great that the people are here and we don't want the ones that are alive now to suffer but if kind of the lights went out for everyone else tomorrow maybe you're fine with that or maybe you don't care at all about the people who haven't been born yet or things like this I don't like to go too far into the future generations because I think in practice it doesn't matter that much I think the threats are quite soon and affect the people that are alive today but there is a set of EA's that are putting a lot of the weight on the sort of I think it's like forty five trillion theoretical future human lives and making sure that they get to actually experience the world and that something doesn't stop it before we get there and so that's where we work on things like pandemics and biosecurity risks as well as potential risks from advanced artificial intelligence all right we're going to dive into a couple of follow-ups related to these and the first is related to animal welfare and suffering which I think a lot about and I read that you are directionally vegetarian and I would love for you to explain
On being directionally vegetarian. (01:00:43)
what directionally vegetarian means I always feel a little sheepish about this because from a pure ethics perspective I sort of feel like vegans are right but I also you know I know a lot of vegans and vegetarians and I see how they struggle with some of their eating decisions and I know what the experience is like for me and so I just feel better when there is a little bit of meat in my life but I've cut way back I probably was somebody ten or fifteen years ago that would have some kind of beef meal every single day or chicken meal and you know that other many days where there's no meat in my diet and I'm very interested in the alternative meat products especially the ones from impossible foods where the foundation is actually taking investment and basically I'm in a place where if the alternative is even like half as good or three quarters as good I'd much rather have that and it gives me the same sort of you know satiation that real meat does and mostly I feel limited by availability I just want to have like push for the culinary team to just like serve it more often and we had impossible burgers earlier this week I was like great definitely going to eat that one and you know we have some home cooked meals and try and incorporate it there and in San Francisco it's in a fair amount of restaurants but it's still pretty rare but I definitely seek those restaurants out and I found a few like great takeout places and I'm just like really eager for this future where that's in our diet and I feel ready for it but for the availability it's kind of how I think about it.
Discussions On Ai Risks And Future Prospects
Funding future pandemic preparation. (01:02:32)
So if we hop from some of those cause areas to perhaps forward looking perspectives is there anything that you've been watching and particularly interested in funding or considering funding that is outside of the cause areas that you mentioned? Well those are pretty sweeping buckets. They are broad. Yeah. On the global catastrophic threats I don't know if I'm getting that phrasing correct but on the pandemic side it seems like the effective altruism community was focused on pandemics on some level even before 2020 came around and COVID. How do you think about that? Let's just focus on that before we get to AI cause I know that AI is going to be a whole different kettle fish on the pandemic side. What levers do you try to pull? What are most important in terms of high leverage or important perhaps neglected or under exploited, underfunded and so on with respect to pandemics? How do you think about trying to help with preparedness or other aspects? So we've been in this space since 2016 and so in those early years it was partially just trying to make people understand that this was a real possibility. There really hadn't been anything since I guess the first, you know, call it the Spanish flu anymore but the 1919 pandemic. And so we've sort of fallen to this complacency but we could see that there were a lot of things like globalization that were increasing vulnerability for a global scale pandemic and that it just felt like a matter of time. So partially raising awareness now of course COVID-19 has dramatically increased that but it hasn't increased the preparation. So it's been really disappointing to see not only has there not really been budget for future cleaning up this pandemic but there's very little money going into preparation for the next one in terms of government scale funding. And so we still feel somewhat defenseless. I think people are a lot more aware. They kind of know what some of the playbook will be. If there's another pandemic and I'm really encouraged by things like a focus on indoor air quality I think is a huge deal. What do you mean by that? Well like during COVID and especially if you lived through the California wildfires people got into like the HEPA filters and things that are sort of processing there. There's some research right now with far UVC. This is kind of like a ultraviolet light back in Kiel bacteria and viruses in the air. And the only reason we're not deploying it everywhere is there's their unknown long term health side effects. And so I think we have some grants in this area. I know some people are funding research into exploring that. One of the biggest ones I think we could have is just if a technology like that was as commonplace as air conditioning or water filtration you know about water quality is something we already have sort of caught on to this is really important and we have municipal scale and also personal scale devices that help us with this. I think doing the same with air quality would go a long way. But I think the biggest thing that we push for is just more surveillance of what's circulating in the wild. And there was a point in time you know there I'm sure you remember all these debates about how much COVID actually is there is there a bias and who's testing and are the test accurate and all this. But there's a shortcut was to shortcuts one is what's called a a survey and so you just kind of you try and get a random sample of people in a local population you do a blood test and you just like sequence everything in their blood and see what's there. And if we were doing this in every major metro all over the world, even with relatively small samples, you would catch pandemics like COVID-19 well before they become these global scale outbreaks. In this case, maybe it was being done in China and hidden or who knows but by the time we actually became aware of it it was just the cat was out of the bag it was probably like three months after the first infection it was too far gone. But if you're doing this systematically just looking for an emerging pandemic, you'd be much more likely to catch it. The easier way to do it that I think is really interesting is with sewage samples if you've seen any of these sites. No, I have not. There's a great one in the Bay Area and they're literally just looking at a sewage runoff and sampling for the concentration of COVID and now they've extended it to you know monkey pox and various types of flu. And you can literally just look at the Bay Area cities and look at a two year trend graph of how prevalent these things are. And so I was actually just this morning I was reading a news article like COVID spiking in the Bay Area and like you know these sort of scare stories that come up from time to time. And I said, hey, this is my trust that's where some just going to go see if it's really spiking and you know there's a little increase and maybe it'll become something more but this feels like something that he removes all these biases from how people test and everything and can just be trusted is something real. Alright, so Dustin AI let's uncork this monster and talk about AI not saying monster in the pejorative sense, but this might be also a tie into effective altruism because there's been a lot of attention and reported attention given to AI.
AI risks and Yuddites. (01:07:33)
Where would you like to begin because this is of course a topic that can go in many different directions where would it make sense to start. Lately, the place I've been starting is kind of getting more into the nuance of the positions there's been this part of the discourse that's emerged that that really paints everyone into two extremes you're either entirely pro AI or you're sometimes you call them doomers or. Yeah, I haven't even have any of it's a yudite. Yeah, well it's a reference to Elliot's your love luddites. Yeah, but upon on, but what is the why? Well, for your as you're good cow ski who sort of. Oh, okay, I get it. Okay, yeah, I get it. Take me a second. Yeah, yeah. You know, I feel bad even bringing up the term and making it more popular but also I love puns so much and I'm like, wow, people really nailed that one. But he kind of represents the other end of the poll of like he's the most worried about AI and you know is just really worried about it as a global catastrophic risk like we were talking about earlier or something that could actually cause human extinction or, you know, destroy civilization. But even with Elle Yezer and even more so with me, it's much more nuanced than that he's not an actual luddite he's a technologist and you know really believes in the technological future he believes in the power of a he started out enormously pro AI. And then as he got into it sort of came to understand some serious risks that you know felt like you needed to be addressed and I think the risks are very serious. I don't think they're quite as likely to occur as he does and I have more optimism around humanities resiliency and ability to address the problem for the conversation about beginning of infinity. And I'm also just really enthusiastic about AI at the same time I, you know, I wake up every day and I'm like this is amazing there are so many cool things I can do. Oh, and also I hope it doesn't kill us. And I'm like, I'm like always kind of like having a full bestiality. Yeah, exactly. And so I try and, you know, give this analogy of like when you get into a car you expect to go to your destination but you put on a seatbelt. You follow the rules of the road and there's a regulatory system and licensing system for drivers that helps ensure sort of mutual safety for everyone, including the pedestrians. And so I really think about AI safety like that like we are heading towards something really awesome, but there are some serious risks we need to address and that requires some concerted effort. And the reason it relates to effective altruism is especially until the last year a lot of things have been changing pretty much nobody was working on this partially because they thought AI was very far off partially because they didn't agree that the risk would manifest even when we got there. What are some of the risks and I couldn't help but imagine in my mind I was thinking, you know, when I was 12 for a very long time I wanted to be marine biologist and I'm thinking how much of the people in AI are like 12 year old boys of a pet great white shark. That knows a bunch of cool tricks, but man you got to be careful with the great white shark. But what are the risks I am particularly excited to hear you describe them because you are technical. I am not technical to be clear I'm not an engineer I don't play one on the internet but I appreciate perspectives on AI from those people who are able to immerse themselves in some of the more technical aspects. So what are the risks for a lay audience you could get into the weeds a bit we do have technical folks listening as well but what are the risks and how how do you assign sort of probability to those risks if they haven't yet come to pass and maybe some of them are already current. Well I'll start with the one where there's a lot more agreement so we're talking about part of our GCR work is on bio security and we talked a lot about pandemics but we also worry about bio weapons so somebody purposefully engineering a pathogen and you know if there are people in the world who are trying to do this now and they have various resources available to them some of them are successful governments try and stop them in various ways and there's been no major bio weapons but language models especially or even more purpose built AI's can change this and create more of an offense defense and balance. So there's been some research recently and Dario Amadeh is the CEO of Improppic recently testified to Congress about how this works where you're basically trying to solve any problem and use language model to help but in this case a sort of malicious goal if you're trying to engineer a bio weapon and a language model can help you not get stuck along the way work around problems and just figure out step by step. And you know right now what's possible the language models don't help you that much they help you a little bit but they're not at a power level where this is a serious threat but the worry is in another generation or two or three they will get to a place where it becomes really enabling for people who have this goal to kind of work around these problems and figure it out especially if they already have a background in biology but even if they don't and so you know maybe you're just enabling a lot more people to come up with this and usually when I have this conversation people try and relate it to nuclear weapons and they're like what's the equivalent of uranium you got to regulate that and it just turns out with bio that there is nothing like that you know we may just be in a place where it's more like 3D printed guns where you can get commodity hardware and this thing's helping you and you can do something really dangerous with it and then you have to think about are there other ways to stop this again the surveillance can help even with a bio weapon that we talked about but also are there ways to create safeguards around how the language models themselves work and how do we make this situation safer or at least buy us more time to set up better defense? Could you say more about this particular example because I think about the sort of cost asymmetry and offense versus defense and maybe there isn't not understanding the specifics personally maybe I'm misthinking this but I think of let's just say micro drone like swarm drone attacks and if you have a target let's just say there's a tank that's the target and then you have 100 drones released with explosives or a pack of drones it's relatively inexpensive to launch that offense but it could be very very expensive or even if it's like a very targeted attack using bio weapons against an
Most promising avenues of AI defense. (01:13:43)
individual but with some type of distributed attack the defense seems really tough what are some of the most promising avenues of defense because I'm sure you have and I have seen examples of circumventing the restrictions placed on some of these large language models for making something they shouldn't make or breaking into a neighbor's house where there are ways that you can circumvent it I don't necessarily want to give people how to guide in this conversations but there's some clever ways to circumvent what are some of the most promising avenues for establishing some defensive capabilities with these types of things there's constraints and there's defense so if you go and ask open AI chat GPT how do I create a bio weapon and it will tell you it's not going to help you and as you said there's there are ways to jail break this so the first thing you can do is try and improve those right cut off these sort of back doors and there's a lot of research going into that right now from the big labs from academics and I do think we'll get iteratively better at this over time so you get sort of an anti-frigility effect of people are trying to hack these things and we're figuring out all the hacks and getting better at it but the other thing I would point out is when you have a hosted service like chat GPT or in Thropics Cloud you can also just like know your customer monitor what they're doing you know have terms of service cut you know cut them off law enforcement can get involved and you know I think those are just important conventional measures but notably they don't imply to the open source models so whatever you do to try and prevent jail breaks or try and prevent certain times questions from being answered once you have an open source model those may as well not exist it's extremely easy to kind of remove that that's a good thing to think about that safety protection so when I think about the overall AI risk landscape part of what I'm worried about is just how many different actors there are and varying degrees of concern about this and varying degrees of control and I think about an individual lab like open AI or in Thropic I feel pretty good I think they're doing responsible things I think they're doing great safety research but they're not the only ones out there and so a lot of times when people talk about how will you improve the safety of these or how will you solve which will get to as well I'm sure they think about this kind of idealized lab that's like doing all the right things and they're keeping the untested AI and a safe box and it's you know not connected to the Internet or not embedded in critical infrastructure and like that'll be how we iterate into a safe place and I'm like yeah I believe you and there are 10 other actors at least that are also doing things and there's a penalty for doing the safety work cost money and time and means you're not going to have the latest greatest most powerful model on the market that sort of like game theoretic dynamic is more the thing I'm concerned about and that I think creates a lot of risk how do you incentivize the this might not be the right way to think about it but sort of the closed system players the proprietary shops again might not be the right terminology but how do you incentivize them to allocate a lot of resources to safety when you have other players who may not play by those rules or open source options which I've seen in some discords creating things that you would not believe how do
Incentivizing AI safety compliance. (01:17:19)
you create those incentives I think it's a really hard problem and even if you solve it in the short run you may just get to a place where the sort of race dynamics kind of take over I think we're really fortunate in who runs the current big labs I know Sam Altman very well Adam D'Angelo who's a board member of SONAs also an opening eye board I know the anthropic team really well closely involved with them and those leaders are just true believers in the safety issue and they care right it's like their own lives at stake and their families lives at stake I think that's a really powerful force and I think it's served this well so far and I think this is also true of many of the leaders inside the other labs that I know I know less well and I think that's the thing that we most have going for us right now and part of what we've been trying to do is just convince more of the rest to care as well and just have as many people as you can care and then try and make sure those organizations are a little better resourced and I don't know how long that will go on for but it's a good place right now but there have been some new labs that have been founded very recently where I'm more concerned about this and in some cases they claim to care about safety they've got a certain approach that sounds good on paper but I don't know where it will really go but just trying to get the labs to communicate with each other and to engage with the research and to just care about the issue in the first place I think is the best thing we have going for us So in addition to bio weapons which at least as I listen to you describe it seems to highlight smaller groups or from individual players but maybe not state actors I would imagine as a lay person that disinformation campaigns and really sophisticated campaigns run by state actors will become more and more of something to contend with but in your mind what are some of the additional threats that are potentially catalyzed or enabled by AI outside of the bio weapons The other big one we worry about is just the alignment issue so as you have more and more powerful systems you discover that it's harder than you would think to get them to adhere to
Further AI threats. (01:19:12)
human values we care about the things that we care about and sometimes that's because we've sort of poorly specified what we care about if you just step back and forget AI and talk to humans about philosophy and fairness and equity there's no sort of consensus answer right now these are like still philosophical problems so we can't even like really well define them for each other but we're also trying to instruct this kind of alien like human system to care about and incorporate in some cases we're like paradoxical goals but also are very very nuanced and have to do with trade offs whereas what they naturally want to do is maximize like achieve a goal as well as possible and so this idea of instrumental convergence which is no matter what goal you give a system if it's trying to maximize it it eventually gets to a place where it wants a lot more resources it wants control and it wants to not be shut off and that's when you get into concerns about the thing that is most likely to shut off the computers is the humans and so if you have a sufficiently powerful system that has gathered enough resources it might decide to contain that threat just as part of achieving some other goal which maybe we gave it in the first place or maybe it came up with on its own and I don't think any of this story requires consciousness by the way people get in a rabbit hole when they engage in that part but it's just you know you got to keep in mind this thing sounds human because it's a language model and it's meant to sound as human as possible we've asked it to maximize that goal in itself but it is not human it is very alien like under the surface we don't know how it works and we can't even get it to do some simple constraints like not threatened to kill the end user in a chat script or like not give the recipe for napalm if you coax it out in the right way and later more powerful systems are going to need to incorporate more important more nuanced constraints than that and so there's a bit of a you know again this sort of offense defense arms race of like how good will we get at constraining and aligning the system compared to how fast will it progress and by the way this is a place where I disagree with David Deutsch he's very much an acceleration that's the you know the once there to be no concern on the AI and I think the crux of the argument is speed I basically agree with him that our normal sort of iterative processes and solve all these problems they are not only are we going to solve all problems but I don't know that we'll have enough time usually we have many decades to solve very hard problems and the nature of the development is you could have very fast take off this is what part of while he has are so concerned literally like maybe next year all of a sudden there's extremely powerful AI or even if it's more moderate than that maybe 10 years from now we have this extremely powerful AI that isn't obviously enough time there isn't actually enough attention going to the defense side to align things before we get there and we also don't know which actor will produce it maybe it will be antagonistic state or maybe it'll just be somebody who doesn't care about the safety issues or is trying to maximize commercialization or something that's kind of like a very strict out the things that are slowing down the system that that cost safety and all that just feels very chaotic and like a lot of things could go wrong in unpredictable ways just so people don't curl up in the fetal position
What the AI-amplified decade ahead might look like. (01:23:21)
under their desk after this as a very close friend of mine said he almost did after listening to a separate episode that I did with Eric Schmidt my second conversation with him where we talked a lot about AI make the optimistic case or give us some of the upside and paint a picture of what things might look like in I know this is very hard to do and possible to do accurately unless you're you know some type of of soothsayer and can peer into your crystal ball but what might the future look like in three five ten years if we're able to manifest some of the promise of AI on the positive side. Oh man, this is so fun. This is part I like to talk about because there's so many like good things. I recently published a piece in In Fortune actually that's kind of looking at this through the work lens because I think that even a lot of the things we've talked about so far in the episode, I think can be really amplified with AI so for example we're talking about how people's schedules get chopped up and part of this is just we have these very coarse ways of trying to solve the multifaceted problem of like there are five people with different work streams and schedules and you want to get them together while disrupting the focus blocks as little as possible and really we do this just by kind of like looking at everyone's calendar and like looking for the open slots between them and sometimes you'll move one meeting to make an extra space and look often no meeting Wednesday is often clear on everybody's calendars let's use that and you end up dropping up everyone's calendar but in AI can do that really well and give you ideally sort of do like a defragmentation on everyone's calendars and just keep iterating until it's as perfect as possible honoring as many people's preferences as possible can also eliminate the need for meetings in many cases, one of the things we're excited about in Asana is sort of identifying more proactively when you even need to call a meeting when you have a decision that needs to be made when there's a conflict in lieu of having intelligence around that you just do course things like we're going to get together every week and share status updates and kind of reasing and see what decisions are coming up now and I think that having AI serve more as sort of like air traffic control looking at the work overall in the organization can just lead to not only better business outcomes but much better sort of individual subjective experiences of how your work happens and that's just the tip of the iceberg on work and then I think the thing that people talk about a lot is sort of automating a lot of work that is wrote to repetitive or just that also coincides with the work that humans don't want to do, there's a lot of knowledge work that looks like that, there's also a lot of physical work that can be automated with robotics and I think every time that's happened we just get a little closer to the Jettin style world where you live in your best life and spending as little time as possible in the stuff that you don't want to do and additionally I think there's this thing that's a little less explored of having just like a really great coach and cheerleader both on an individual basis and for the team, like imagine you have like the world's greatest project manager that's integrated into every team, it knows all the best practices from everything and it knows the context of the specific project you're working on and that means you can kind of let go of a lot of things that cause continual partial attention disorder of like, did we really get to a concrete next step here You just said partial attention disorder, right? Yeah, that is amazing, that is such a great phrase, okay, I'm going to write that down Oh yeah, it's a David Allen thing from getting things done. David Allen, yeah, I didn't realize I was an acronym from that, okay, got it. Yeah, Daniel, partial attention deficit, I can just say, yeah, well, I'm just part of the reason we built this on is like people carry around their task list and their heads or that's in their email inbox and their rescanning their email inbox all the time and if you can get it into a system that you trust to show you those things at the right time or send your reminders at the right time, you can let go of it in the active memory and get more space for presence And I think AI can be doing this at a much higher level of abstraction for entire teams and entire companies, so you don't have to worry about, you know, is there a dependency that's going to affect the critical path on this project we're working on that's going to eventually mean back to deadline slips. Right now, that's a lot of what managers are doing is looking for these problems, but I think an AI can be doing it for you, doing a lot more effectively helping focus the managers on where they'll be most useful. This is the actual blocking dependency that you need to fix, you need to resource better, you need to scope down, you need to do something to change this and it can even be doing softer stuff like, hey, marketing and sales are fighting, we can tell just by like looking at the text analysis of the conversation second thing and, you know, I think that can just like go so much further and get rid of a lot of this work about work that we do a lot of manual processes to try and like work around these problems and, you know, have the systems in place that we can catch things some of the time I think all that can go away so that people can focus much more on the creative productive work that really, you know, drives the business forward towards its goals Yeah, my team and I use Asana, we have for years, we also use more recently chat GPT and I'm sure we'll experiment with more language models, but it is remarkable, I'll tell you what's in the hopper for my follow up questions so it can just stay with you for a minute, but the AI integrations into Asana that you are most excited about and part of the reason
Product Updates And Personal Recommendations From Dustin
Asana’s forthcoming AI integrations. (01:28:59)
I ask is right now we use a number of different tools but to really focus on Asana, we're using it not just for tracking the work of other people but tracking our own work, so trying to take these open loops and put them into a repository such that we can see what is kind of green, yellow, red, and at a glance keep track of all of these things, especially, I mean, I shouldn't say especially, but on a small team, the problems that are created if you don't do that, it's true for a large team as well but a lot of people are self-directed, everyone is self-directed largely and everyone is a direct report of mine effectively, so it's proven to be a critical piece of our infrastructure and process On the chat GPT side, you know, I'm just imagining how these things are going to be integrated in the future and they're already these integrations with chat GPT and I'm imagining when it gets to sort of the WeChat point where you can say I want to make roast pork tonight with these parameters, this is what I like, this is what I don't like have all of the ingredients delivered to me within the next three hours and A, B and C, right, turn on my oven, I'm free to do whatever I mean, but it's going to happen quickly and I mean there's the downside to that with the napalm example too, but the integrations are really interesting to me and I'm wondering what you're most excited about with respect to AI integrations into Asana I think I've been talking about some of the longer-term versions of like we almost sort of conceptualize it as AI is an extension of your team I think a lot of what we've seen in products today is the sort of co-pilot mentality of like there's one person trying to accomplish a specific thing, make a dinner tonight and it's helping fill in some of the steps or you know, explode small details into a complete plan, we will definitely do that kind of stuff, you know, we've already launched in beta like a writing assistant to help you draft tasks you know, we can take a task and break it into sub tasks, we've written the sort of summarization tools that I think are very powerful like you come back to a thread and 50 people have kind of gone back and forth and comments and be really great if something just sort of said I think the user is always deciding this is when I'm going to use the writing assistants, who is doing most of the speaking kind of catch you up really quickly, that stuff will be really great, but the things that I think are going to be really powerful or about I like to frame this as sort of like push versus pull AI so what we've got now is pull like the users always deciding this is when I'm going to use the writing assistants, this is when I'm going to use the summarization tool which would be more like what you already see with like news feeds today where it's like the intelligence is decided, this is important for you to see, and it's like putting it in a queue or sending you an email and then you know these ideas like helping to identify the open loops in the first place, so something that happens in meetings and comment threads is people will identify a decision and they'll sort of like give some thoughts about it, but they won't necessarily like decide it be really powerful if you just did the language analysis of like hey actually this is still undecided and maybe even like assign it to somebody to follow it through to completion, or you said these three things needed to be done but you didn't actually assign them to anybody and so like that would be so helpful, I'm going to admit it's embarrassing but some of these things are very aspirational for me still, it's not a perfectly oiled machine, so this would be incredibly helpful just to identify what got lost in the shuffle During the offsite you guys captured a million different things and you prioritize them or made an attempt to, but for whatever reason you forgot four out of the 12 top items and dropping that into a system with some visibility would be super super helpful Yeah, we'd love to take that responsibility off the user's hands, so they can relax into doing the work, but feel like Asana itself is this super diligent project and goal manager and even do sort of longer arc things like often you'll be in a kick off meeting and you'll identify key risks to a project and the idea for this is that somebody will remember those key risks and kind of like come back to them and notice when they're manifesting, but in reality, you know you may or you may not do that you may forget about them But the system ideally could remember them and say, oh hey, here's that thing happening that you talked about at the beginning, there's a production delay or the guest was on a bill on a, I don't know how to translate it to, to podcasts but in sort of like just be always watching for you as helping you celebrate accomplishments and recognize people for doing great work, if to not do that in a creepy way but I think that there is a way to have it feel really positive and feel like it's truly helping you see more, you don't have to like go through every single task everyone on your team is doing to see when they do something really great. There are so many examples I can think of where push AI would be helpful assuming that it doesn't create an information, they lose or paradox of choice issue right for people who are maybe confronted with options that they weren't prepared to select from but I'll give you an example recently, I like to organize trips with my very close friends and get them on the calendar well in advance because everybody's busy if you don't do it, it's just not going to happen and I'm considering a fishing trip, like a river trip with friends and all of my full-time employees are experimenting with chat GPT for basically rough drafting different tasks and for something like that, you could very easily imagine a world in which that's in a sauna and it's a bit of a clumsy large task so it's not quite the what is the next physical action, you know, I'll leave it Alan but if you had, you know, to draft an itinerary for a fishing trip in a mountainous region, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah parameter parameter and then it could very easily as chat GPT did draft a pretty compelling rough draft, it's not going to be the final version but it provides you with enough to save a lot of time on miscellaneous searches and calling through sponsored versus organic versus this versus that content varm versus individual author blog that has some higher page rank or whatever, it just saves so much time on the front end, it could very easily see that auto populating somehow in a sauna task so you know, right now we live in this world where you either get the building blocks of a sauna and you fill it in all yourself or you use a very abstract template like, you know, I want to run a marketing campaign but as you said, you can be very specific like not only I'm going to do a fishing trip in Montana but like this exact city and like, you know, have it fill in all the tasks and like tell you what like the local stores are and like how you're going to get there and it can really bridge this gap between, you know, nothing and template to giving you customize, you know, bespoke projects and as much detail as you give it at the outset, it will engage with all that detail and do a great job that'll really help people a lot in particular with, you know, one of the complaints we get about a sauna a lot is just like, I don't know if I'm using it well I'm not if I'm like using everything I should be organizing this the right way and having that sort of assistant that is an expert on a sauna and an expert kind of on everything in the world can really help give you the confidence that, you know, you're using all the building blocks in the right way and then you kind of take it from there I've wanted, if you don't mind zoom out to maybe some of the philosophical level and ask you a question that ties together the energy management we were talking about earlier with time blocking and ensuring that you do things that nourish you, nourish your soul however you want to think about it like this trip that I'm considering taking with friends and the reason I ask is that for at least a hundred years, maybe longer many ways of thinking about it many writers
Blocking personal time. (01:37:04)
have postulated that with A, B, and C technological advances we're going to reach a level of such efficiency and effectiveness that the real question will be how the modern worker takes advantage of this vast amount of leisure time but somehow humans being humans we've managed alongside that generally to, I don't want to say squatter but you find ways to fritter away time often using many sort of parallel technological advances I think the net net that I perceive in my audience at least is that we have the tools to be more efficient than ever but a lot of people still feel a sense of time scarcity and I'm wondering what you do personally or how you think about that type of time blocking making sure the big things or the items that really nourish you find time in your schedule maybe that's a lazy question but I know it's one that comes up directly and directly a lot for people in my periphery so I'd be curious to hear anything that you might have to say about that first of all I just say I'm a work in progress on that so it's something I'm always trying to get better at and over time I've just learned there are some things that are sacrosanct for me and they get fixed in my calendar and you know things happen they won't necessarily happen every week but if maybe two weeks go in a row then I'll find a new block for it make sure it happens this includes of course sleep exercise, spending time with my wife, we do a date night every Saturday but sometimes we're on a trip or we do some type of friends on Saturday and so we'll find a different night of the week for that and just try and be mindful and intentional about it rather than just I think maybe ten years ago would be more like well I've got all these things I'm doing and if I feel done enough by a certain hour then I'll go work out and of course like then you fritter way or time and you never get to it and so I've become a lot more regular and scheduled and I think that serves me well and they're longer arc versions of this like I try and go for a solo hike once every three months you know my wife and I have certain vacations we try and do some of them are traditions with friends some of them are just when you say solo hike is that like an afternoon stroller we're talking about a long vacation you said every three months what is a solo trip like that look like I mean I live in the Bay Area which is just phenomenal for hiking so usually it's a day trip it is incredible yeah it's incredible but you know like you know I'll do like a ten mile hike or something and in a day you know love the Mount Tam area for example and just I find that very restorative and I'll tell people about it after and I'll say you should have invited me I live in that area I love going on hikes and I'm like no no you don't have a trip to the Bay Area and I'm like no no you don't understand it's not how it works.
Recommended reading. (01:40:41)
This is for me and I've just tried to be reflective on what those things are and at what cadence I need them and you know what works for me and what doesn't and what's taxing and what's restorative and just try and ever iterate towards better balance over time. If I may pull us back to your book list which I do not believe is publicly available but maybe we can share some of them to the extent that you're comfortable. I'm wondering what of these books you've revisited in times of uncertainty or duress or stuckness you have a lot of great books and they're categorized in all sorts of different ways you have psychology mindfulness you have leadership and strategy, epistemology and philosophy are there any books that you've returned to when you're like you know what I just need, I feel like I need a refresher or a reminder in maybe high stress or high stakes periods of your life if that's if that question makes any sense at all. I'm a little bit of a type a person with this one usually going for a new book but I guess the way I think of it more is like a lot of the books are very similar to each other. And so I think of it more as I'd like to read a book about mindfulness you know every six months or something like that and they're authors like Jack Cornfield is extremely prolific. He has many books I have one in here that you know touch me in a personal way but like there are many that are quite good which one of his books. The one I have in here is a lamp in the darkness you know it's particularly useful when going through grief you know he has just a lot of great books on day to day living. And so I think I'm more likely to sort of look for which one haven't I read yet that you know a lot of it will overlap and he'll tell some of the same stories anyway but it'll just be like a different angle on it. And so you know it's usually I'm sort of cycling through like mindfulness and like leadership those books you know business books all rhyme with each other as well. And then sort of more intellectual stuff like beginning of infinity. If you had to reread a biography that you have read let's just say you know in the next few months you had to sit down with something you've already read or a person for whom you've already read one biography you could read a new biography of them. I'll allow that. Who might you choose or what book might you choose. I think if I was going to reread a biography it would be Churchill and there's there's a few different ones but walking with destiny happens to be the one I read and his life is just extraordinary and it feels like fiction to go through it. And in terms of biographers I you know I think turnout and and Carol are a cut above and so anybody they're writing about I will become interested in. Yeah their dedication to the craft is just unbelievable. If it took it with you Dustin Alsaska a few more questions and then we can we can land the we can land the plane.
Dustin’s billboard. (01:43:14)
And if these are dead ends I will take the blame but I'll ask just a few of my common questions because I like to ask them that's rather common. So one is the billboard question and that is if you could put a quote phrase word an image anything on a billboard metaphorically speaking to get something in front of many many many many people. What might you put on that billboard. I don't know if I have a 50 phrase for this but oh no I do actually the title of my medium posts is you know live well to work hard. I think people create this false dichotomy of work life balance where they think of it only in terms of like the number of hours you have for work and what's left for for life and don't really think about the quality of those hours. And I just like over time just come up a lot in this conversation but just more and more in appreciation for I have to rest really well to be able to do my job well and perform well during the hours and I'm working. But also all these other parts of life you know exercise yoga using the back but he spending spending time with my wife and family and friends. It's so all part of me and you know part of being a whole person. And I think particularly in the tech industry particularly in your 20s people think of it more as like yeah I'm going to work hard right now and like later I'll live my life and later doesn't come unless you're intentional about it. And I think you'll be more effective than just the sprinting. Live well to work hard I'll link to the medium piece in the show notes as well. And one more book question because I love books as you can pick up if I were to scan this camera on the room you'd be horrified by the number of stacks of books that I have here. But I tend to accumulate there's this term "sundoku" which is like a Japanese term for accumulating stacks of books that you have not read. That's very much highlighted in the room that I'm in right now but what book or books have you gifted often to other people if you've gifted any books. Could be recommended. I'm an audible guy so I like never give a physical book to people. Something that's come up a lot lately is this book "The Road Back to You" which is about the Enneagram. And I'll just say up front it's like written by a former preacher and he's got some like religious tones and that doesn't really appeal to me but I just found the descriptions of the Enneagram types to be just really spot on especially the one of my type type five. And just really felt like reading my diary and I've recommended it to a few other people who had similar experiences and I had read a bunch of about Enneagram before and it was like "Oh this sort of fits. It sort of doesn't." And then this one really spoke to me. I'll check it out. The conscious leadership folks use Enneagram a lot. I don't want to speak for all of them but at least Jim and Diana do. And I know that I believe when Toby of Shopify and I last spoke on the podcast he also mentioned. I think they may type everyone in the company who works at the company. Do you guys do that at Asana or is that more opt in for you and a handful of folks who may be interested or is that systematized throughout the company in any way? I think it depends on the team. I've done it for my direct. We've actually done it for the board as well because it's often useful to kind of understand the interactions between two types but I don't know how far in the company it pervades. Quite a lot of people do know their type though. Yeah. For people who want to explore that. Check it out. Does the road back to you? Is that a suitable starting place for people who have no familiarity with the Enneagram? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, great. Okay. Perfect. So I will link to that as well. Can I give one more recommendation? Oh, please. Absolutely. This one hasn't come up in a while but it was talked about a lot when it was first published by Scout Mindset. It's book by Julia Gallopf. She's a rationalist and she's near the effect of altruism in the community. I think it's just a good way of getting into that way of thinking. I think it's very related to conscious leadership. A lot of it is about challenging your stories and just being open and curious in how you think about ideas and learn about the world and something I've come back to a lot. Perfect. Well, Dustin, we have covered a lot of ground. I'm sure I could go for hours and hours more with all of the many notes that I said.
Parting thoughts. (01:47:46)
I still have around me, but is there anything before you wind to a close that you'd like to mention closing comments, requests for the audience, anything at all that you'd like to add? I think we got it all out. I'll probably, as soon as I hang up, I'm sure I'll come up with something. I could do a voice at Denton. A PS from Dustin, if need be. But it's nice to see you and thanks for making the time today. I really appreciate it. I have lots of things I'm going to follow up on. I am going to get the road back to you because I've been meaning to reboot the Enneagram for myself. I've had everyone in my company typed. I do find it helpful, even if not necessarily an interaction, but even so that each person can be perhaps more aware, myself included of strengths and weaknesses and how your predispositions can show up as handicaps that you may not recognize off the bat. Find it very helpful. I'll revisit that. Can you say what your type is? You've been typed? Yeah, I can. I am a self-preservation six. That'll make a lot of sense to people. If they read the description, they'll be like, "Oh yeah, shocker. Not surprised." It's also fun. It is a fun exercise. I have found at least practical in more ways than one might expect. There are some people who develop or have severe allergies to the Enneagram. One of my very close friends is one of them. It's not for everybody. It's one of the tools. One of the many modalities that can be helpful. I really appreciate you being so open and willing to dig into a lot of the specifics and cover so much ground. I feel like we got a lot into one conversation. Thank you, Dustin. Yeah, thank you. I highly recommend the experience. Yeah, and for people, actually, you know what? For one last question, I keep giving these second goodbyes and third goodbyes. But is there anything that you would like to see me discuss more on the podcast or whether that's topics to explore particular people? Does anything come to mind that you think could be fruitful to explore on the podcast? Well, I'll just say, I was very delighted that the last episode I heard was Jack Cornfield. I thought that was one of the best that I've heard over the years. I know he's been on more than once. But yeah, I feel like he'd go a long time on the mindfulness and self-care. You do. It's not something you're not doing already. I think that's usually my favorite kind of content. Great. Yeah, thanks. I think of that personally is I think it was a camera who first used this phrasing with me, but put your own oxygen mask on before helping others, just that the importance of self-care, if you actually want to do a lot in the world. So it's a good reminder for me, and I'll be sure to have Jack back on. He's a pre-zaprenial favorite. And to everybody listening, we talked about a lot. We made many references. We talked about books, people, different principles, and so on, including the template for time tracking that you mentioned, which we will put into the show notes as per usual for everyone to peruse at Tim.blog/podcast. And in closing, I'll just say to everybody out there, back, buddy, don't miss it. And should have been my billboard. Exactly. Back, buddy. And be just a little bit kinder than is necessary to others and to yourself. And until next time, thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off, and that is Five Bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered, or have started exploring over that week. It's kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles I'm reading, books I'm reading, albums perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on that get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcasts. Guests and these strange esoteric things end up in my field and then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog/Friday, type that into your browser, Tim.blog/Friday, drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Shopify is one of my favorite companies out there, one of my favorite platforms ever. And let's get into it. Shopify is a platform as I mentioned, designed for anyone to sell anything anywhere, giving entrepreneurs the resources once reserved for big business. So what does that mean? That means in no time flat, you can have a great looking online store that brings your ideas, products and so on to life, and you can have the tools to manage your day-to-day business and drive sales. This is all possible without any coding or design experience whatsoever. Shopify instantly lets you accept all major payment methods. Shopify has thousands of integrations and third party apps, from on-demand printing to accounting to advanced chatbots, anything you can imagine. They probably have a way to plug and play and make it happen. Shopify is what I wish I had had when I was venturing into e-commerce way back in the early 2000s. What they've done is pretty remarkable. I first met the founder, Toby, in 2008 when I became an advisor, and it's been spectacular. 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More than a store, Shopify grows with you, and they never stop innovating, providing more and more tools to make your business better and your life easier. Go to Shopify.com/Tim to sign up for a $1 per month trial period. It is a great deal for a great service, so I encourage you to check it out. Take your business to the next level today, and learn more by visiting Shopify.com/Tim. One more time, Shopify.com/Tim all lowercase. This episode is brought to you by Roka, makers of the world's most versatile eyewear. I am incredibly impressed with Roka, actually. The quality is outstanding, and a lot of my friends who are elite athletes also wear them. That's how I was introduced to them. I like to stay active. A lot of long-term listeners will know this, and my eyewear has to be up to the task. Brands that make everyday eyewear, sunglasses and glasses, don't generally build them for people who are really on the move a lot, so you have to wear clunky shades on a run. 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