Random Show — Fasting, Biohacking, and Tony Robbins | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast) | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Random Show — Fasting, Biohacking, and Tony Robbins | The Tim Ferriss Show (Podcast)".

1970-01-01T23:42:57.000Z

Note: This transcription is split and grouped by topics and subtopics. You can navigate through the Table of Contents on the left. It's interactive. All paragraphs are timed to the original video. Click on the time (e.g., 01:53) to jump to the specific portion of the video.


Introduction

Intro (00:00)

Hello boys and girls Maguai and Gremlins. This is Tim Ferriss. Welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show. If you're looking for perhaps some type of highbrow intellectual long-form conversation, you might want to go to Tim.blog/podcast for one of my other long-form interviews. Don't sell us short, dude. Come on. Hold on, Kevin. I haven't introduced you yet. But for those of you who enjoy the random helter is that a right word? Yeah, I think it is. Nature. Well, I'm going to run with it of the random show, which we haven't had an episode of for a very, very long time and this conversation between yours truly and my good friend Kevin Rose. Guest number one on the Tim Ferriss Show. That's true. You were guest number one, the very first episode of the Tim Ferriss Show and Actually, that's in my LinkedIn bio now. It's my claim to fame. It's in your Google+ bio. And We have not done a random show for a long time, but I'll let you do if you want to do an introduction of the - I don't think we even need to anymore. - I don't think we need to. We don't even know what episode we're on. Like for those that you've heard the random show before, I think we've done probably if I had to guess, I'd say maybe 25 episodes. Something like that. 25 episodes. So we're episode 27, let's call it. Episode 27 and Kevin for people who don't know you. What's your story? What would you like people to know about you? What's the question? The speaker bio version of Kevin Rose. I don't even know these days. No, seriously, I would say that I've been a long time internet entrepreneur. I probably invest known for creating the social news website Dig back in 2004. That grew to become a pretty big entity for a number of years. And then I was at Google as an investor and now I'm at True Ventures as an investor. Tim, you and I probably co-invested in maybe a dozen or so angel deals. Yeah, at least. Facebook together, I think Twitter together. Twitter together, Blue Bottle, Coffee together. Yeah, a bunch of them. Side note, you remember how ridiculed we all were when the consortium of techies and non techies invested in Blue Bottle Coffee? Do you remember how much shit we got on the internet for that? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. They're like, "Why would Blue Bottle need to raise money?" But it's done okay. Had a great exit here just about a month ago. It has done all right. It was a majority stake acquisition by Nestle for 700 million or so. So it worked out. Yeah, it worked out. So you've done very well as an investor. You are obsessed with many things Japanese. Yeah. You have a new obsession. It seems every few weeks. And do you have anything new to add? Actually, you know what? I want to hear about the fast mimicking diet because this is something I thought I would have put money on you never sticking with the fast mimicking diet. And maybe you can explain for people what that means. Yeah. But you've actually now done a number of scheduled five-day? Yeah, that's great. That's five-day FMD. So I'll start back by saying that probably the reason why Tim, you and I are friends, I met you when you were launching your first book on your boat party that you did. That's right.


Kevin'S Life Perspectives And Lessons

Enter Kevin (03:16)

You rented out a warship in the San Francisco Bay. And the SS Jeremiah, where they recorded a lot of the Boiler Room audio for the James Cameron movie Titanic. Oh, crazy. In fact. That's awesome. But yeah, we hit it off because we both love all kinds of... This idea of lifelong learning I think has been a theme that you and I both enjoy. And I've certainly got really into biohacking in the last couple of years. I've watched from afar, you poke and prod yourself and squirt all kinds of different juices out of your elbow. You know, this requires a little bit of explanation. So just... This is so gross. All right. But now I have to explain it. So I had a botched PRP injection, which is platelet-rich plasma injection in my right elbow. And people can look up PRP. It actually has some fantastic applications. But there was a botched injection which pushed effectively subcutaneous bacteria into the elbow capsule itself. And it turned into this horrible infection that required abridement and surgery and so on. But Kevin, being the good friend that he is, came to visit me in the ER when I was having the... I'm not sure if you would call it synovial fluid, the infection fluid. It was the pus drained out of your elbow. The pus drained out of my elbow with this gigantic syringe. And being the mature adult that I am, I thought it would be funny to take this turkey-based or worth of elbow fluid out of the sharps container and squirt it at Kevin, who is in the room. I'm not proud of it, but I don't regret it either. So yes, you see me do a lot and make a lot of short-term decisions that haven't turned out very well in the world of biohacking. It's always entertaining though, gotta say. Had a lot of fun doing stupid shit together. But yeah, speaking of... Well, probably not that these days, but fasting. So I got into fasting here probably about three years ago, two and a three years ago. I started fasting at zero, which is a free fasting tracker. And so that has really kind of blown up and taken off. But then I started hearing about the research from Dr. Walter Longo. Actually, it was from a friend of mine, Mike Maser, a mutual friend of ours. Mike was diagnosed with stage four cancer. He went into chemotherapy treatment and he was one of the guys that said, "I'm just not gonna just take what they give me, but I'm gonna go out and do my own research and see what else I can be doing to help fight this and beat this down." And one of the things that came up was this idea of doing these five-day FMDs. And the FMD stands for fasting memetic diet. And the idea is that compliance of doing a standard five-day fast is relatively low, because it's an extremely difficult thing to do. Tim, have you ever done a five-day water only fast? Yeah, I've done five, seven and ten-day. Okay, so I've done a five-day water only. And I will tell you, it is absolutely brutal. I don't know what your experience was, but I had a really difficult time sleeping. Yeah, there's a, I believe it's a cold, energetic effect that leads you to have rapid heartbeat quite often. Yes. When you're trying to sleep, it's not pleasant. So you'll be exhausted and you'll lay down in bed and you'll feel like you just ran a hundred-meter sprint in terms of heartbeat. It's very unpleasant. It's kind of scary. And I get those, I'm also one of those people that get those early heartbeats, where you feel like your heart kind of skip a beat a little bit. They're completely benign and I've had it looked at and everything's fine, but I get those every once in a while. And those come more frequently when I'm in a fast state. So long story short, Mike does this five-day fast. He beats back cancer. He's in full remission, which is awesome. But the idea with the five-day fast is that- Can I interrupt you one more time? And I think this- I don't think Mike would mind this, but I remember you and I when we were talking about this and he- did he do five or three? I can't recall. Sorry, he did three. He did three, but just for those who are curious, so I've had conversations with Dominic Daggastino before on this podcast, very well-published researcher.


Pledge Love Circles (07:43)

And I was first introduced to the possibility that fasting prior to chemotherapy, I believe, and radiation could be either- has the potential to increase the resilience of normal cells, while increasing the susceptibility or weakness of cancer cells to facilitate this type of treatment, but also to decrease the side effects that are commonly experienced. And so Mike, to my understanding, would do say a three-day fast before a session, and while the other people in his cohort were laid out on the on the couch or in bed the next day, he'd be running a 10-mile training run. Right. Which is just insane. Which is nuts. Yeah. And so he originally, when he got turned on to this research by Dr. Longo, is- he showed me this YouTube video where they were giving rats chemotherapy. And the one- the rats that were fasted were just like running around the cage. It looked like normal healthy rats. And the ones that didn't fast were just, like you said, like on their side, all beat up, and in a horrible state. And that's exactly what Mike experienced. And yeah, the idea is that on the making the chemotherapy more effective is that, you know, you're depriving your cells of the cancer cells of some nutrients, certainly sugar, less glucose, and it makes them more susceptible to the chemotherapy treatment. So the chemotherapy is that much more effective.


FMD (Fast Mimicking Diet) for cancer prevention and longevity (09:13)

So, you know, obviously we can't save for certain whether that's what put him into remission, but he's really happy that it did work and he isn't remission. And the evidence looks pretty compelling in humans. And so they're also extending this whole protocol to healthy individuals as a way to potentially prevent cancer from even forming in the first place. So I was turned on to Dr. Walter Longo's new book, The Long Jevity Diet, and I had him on my podcast. Have you seen this book yet? I have seen that. Yeah, I haven't read it, but I have seen it. Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So there's a whole chapter on his FMD protocol and what you need to do to do these five day fast. And so I guess getting into what it actually is, so how it differs from a water only fast, is that you do have calories. So you have around 700 or so calories per day. Some people say that sounds like a lot. Some people say it sounds like a little. It's actually not that much food. It's like a handful of small soups and some crackers. And, you know, the first day it's not so bad, you're like, "Oh, I can do this." Like some crackers and a little bit of soup. And then day two and day three and you're like, "Oh my God, I'm dying." Right? But it's not nearly as bad as water only. But the idea is that you eat just enough food to still get into this fasted state. So all of your inflammation markers, all the things that the different markers are looking at in your blood, they look just like you're doing a water only fast, but with a minimal amount of food. So you have a little bit of not as much hunger and a little bit more energy. And so the compliance is much higher. Were you tracking, when you do these FMDs, have you tracked your ketone levels at all? Do you get into ketosis or does the small amount of carbohydrate and so on that you're consuming keep you out of ketosis? I get a mild, I would say I get around 0.5 or so millimolars. So it's like a very mild. Right, right on the edge. Right, which is kind of brutal because you're kind of in the keto flu symptom area. And so you're not folding into ketosis. Well, this is really interesting because. So Peter, you've got on the show a few times. He's my doctor and I know you work with him as well. And we've kind of like played around with this protocol in that. A T has put together an FMD diet that is a lot more ketogenic friendly, so a lot heavier on the fats and a lot less on the refined carbohydrates. So for example, when you're doing long goes version of this diet and he actually has a nonprofit called Prolon. So you'd actually just order this kit. So I get a kit in the mail that has all the prepackaged food. If you're watching the video version of this, this is what it looks like here. That's happened to have one of this is like day five or yeah, day five. What do they do? What does the nonprofit do with the money that they get? Because it looks very. It goes back into research. Goes back into research. That's right. And long ago doesn't receive any of the money at all. He doesn't take a salary. And so this is meant for people that want to create a little autophagy, a little cell death, generate new stem cells, which he has proven actually happens via this five day method. And so the thing that hooked me though is I have had an elevated cholesterol on my whole father's side of the family. And that's turned into heart disease with my dad and him passing away from a heart attack. My grandpa passed away from a heart attack. My grandma on my dad's side passed away from a heart attack. So like it's running deep. And it's a little bit scary now that I'm 40. I've got these pretty bad numbers so much so that Atia has put me on Crestor, which is knocking back the bad cholesterol with a statin. But obviously I'd prefer not to be on a statin. Anyway, long story short, I decided to because of his book, The Long Jevity Diet, I was reading through it and he said that he was seeing people that did the five day fast. They were improving their cholesterol numbers. And they were getting more good cholesterol and less bad cholesterol. So I was like, oh, that sounds interesting. I might as well give this a shot. But to give it a proper shot, you're supposed to do, and I talked a long ago about this, but three back to back five day fast over three months and then once a quarter. Okay. So you do, there's like a loading phase of fast. That's right. You do whatever the first week of each month for three months. That's right. And the drinking of fasting. It's like a little. Right. And then you do maintenance once a quarter thereafter. That's right. Okay. Yeah. So I did the first five day fast three months ago, had my blood work drawn pre and post, small minor improvements, second fast, same thing. And then by the third, we actually saw a dramatic drop on a few different fronts, cholesterol wise. And Atia was like, when he called me up, my, because we do these little calls to go over my blood work and he was like, Kevin, you're going to live to 90 if you keep this up. This is amazing. So he was shocked and he was blown away. And so we're pretty happy with the results. We'll see how long they, they stick.


Kevin Rose on the Longer Life Diet (14:11)

And this is no dietary changes. This is just, I mean, granted there's a dietary change during those five days, but no, like long term, I'm still kind of sticking to the same diet that I've always been, been sticking to. I liked that he was so specific with 90. That's lower than I would have expected. So it must be all with the, it must be all the meth that you're doing that's going to kill you. Yeah.


FMD (14:31)

I mean, I still do a dose of meth out every now and then, but, you know, I actually speak of meth, dude. I just did some L. Theanine for the first time today. Yeah. Have you tried this with coffee? It is very interesting stuff to be sure. Oh my God, dude. I had never tried it before. I took a pill of it. I took 200 milligrams this morning and I was out with a mutual friend, Tony Conroy. We met for coffee and I gave him a pill too. Oh God. And we were like, cracked out for like three hours, man. Yeah. So this observing of the biohacking is a mutual arrangement that Kevin and I have. It's not just him watching me squirting fluid out of my elbow. I also observe things that you do. Now on the, on the FMD though, just to return to that for a second, you mentioned in passing that a TIA head looked at the possibility of doing a lower carbohydrate higher fat. He actually has a protocol for that. Yeah. I'm sure he'd give you the PDF if you asked for it for the podcast notes. Have you tried it? I did. Yeah. I did that for the second one. And it was, I liked it. Actually, I just happened to buy a three pack of the Prolon kit. So I wanted to go through them and use them because they're not cheap. And so I just use that for the last one. But I like a TIA's in that it's a little bit more work, obviously, because you're preparing your own food. But it's largely like his is different in that with Prolon, you get these little tiny snacks throughout the entire day with his, it's one meal a day. And it's just a salad. It's like a greens and like, you know, three tablespoons or four tablespoons of olive oil and like six olives and, you know, like some sunflower seeds. Like it's not, it's not a whole lot. But it certainly is, is gives you, it's not as refined. And so you, I saw my ketone levels go up on his versus, and I think I had certainly more energy on his versus the Prolon. Got it. Well, I'll ping Peter about that.


Things youve learned about yourself now that you have kids (16:25)

It makes sense that you would on multiple levels that you would have higher ketone levels. And for people who are wondering how one would measure ketone levels, I think you and I still use the same device, which is the Precision Extra XTRA by Abbott Labs, which does a sufficient job in measuring something called BHB, beta hydroxybutyrate in the blood for for a number of different reasons. This is a much more precise and accurate. Well, let's just call it precise, but consistently precise. Maybe it's accurate. Maybe it doesn't. Method of measuring ketones or whether the degree to which you're in ketosis, then p sticks, because as your body becomes, or if you're already very efficient at using ketone bodies, you could show a false negative where you peel on this on the stick. It tells you you're not in ketosis when in fact you are. So the blood is just more accurate. Well, I'm glad you're going to lift 90. That makes me happy. Yeah. I mean, it was a pretty cool experiment. And certainly, for someone that has heart disease running in their family, I'm going to keep it up. I'm going to do another blood draw here next week to see where my levels are at, and then try and do this quarterly. And hopefully, if we can get it down to where I won't be using statins any longer, that'd be great. The last time we did a random show, it was a very, very long time ago, I believe. It was at least before you had a little monkey in your house. Yes. A reason, many reasons, of course, to stick around, but now a very compelling new reason.


Reasons why having kids is a good for personal growth (18:02)

So how would you describe, since certainly I have no kids that I'm aware of at this point? That's a good disclaimer there. Yeah, just, you know, that I don't have kids' asterisks that I know of. What have been the biggest changes that you've felt or observed in yourself or otherwise? How have you view the world, anything like that? Now that you have a kid, and what is your kid's name? I know you've... Yeah, Zelda, she's four months old, and she's named up to the video game because one of the first things that my wife and I bonded on very early on in our relationship was our love for the game Zelda. And actually the new Zelda game allows you to track your hours played. It actually shows it in the little settings menu. And so Daria has over 200 hours played at the latest Zelda. So she's hardcore. She played it a lot during her pregnancy. She's a true believer, and when we were in Japan a long time ago, Daria was using some type of emulator. I don't know what device it was on exactly, but she was playing Zelda on all the trains when we were sitting down and chilling. That's what the game was.


How did you first approach becoming a father (19:12)

Yeah, Josh Cook was too. Yeah, that's right. It's fun to play the original ones with those old school emulators. But yeah, so in terms of her, I mean, it's hard for, I think, a guy in that when you first have your first child, it's like, there's not a whole lot to do.


How do you deal with the many responsibilities of being a new father (19:21)

There's just a lot of crying. And so I tried to help out where I can, but it's really like, on the hip of mom, she was for the first several weeks, and there's a lot of getting used to new things. And then now it's just amazing to do. You walk into a room and she lights up when she sees me for the first time. She smiles and giggles. And it kind of changes the way that I want to approach life in terms of what things are important and trying to make more time to be a good father. And so for someone like myself that has so many varying interests and certainly can get sucked into new things pretty easily, I've been trying to be a little bit more thoughtful about where and when I spend my energy so that I can kind of dial back. So I've spent a good portion of this year trying to live a little bit more minimalist lifestyle.


Playing Thomas Zmelak and the Bare Minimum (20:22)

What are some of the steps that you've taken to do that? Well, one of the things I feel like you and I have had this conversation every year since we always met, but now you actually have a gigantic incentive to follow through. It's funny every time I get together, it's just like, "Oh man, I've got too many investments. I'm doing this. There's too many things going on and I got to spend my time here and we're always more or less complaining to each other. They're just taking on too many things. Even it's so ridiculous." So I've just been trying to implement a few rules. So one of the things I did starting January 1st was to throw away or donate something every single day. And so I have forced myself to go in. And so for example, a few days ago I went in and I just picked out all the clothes that I haven't touched in a year and I took them down the street. I had half a block away as a donation place and I donated anything that I hadn't worn in a year. And it really thins out your closet. Was that easy for you to do or did you have any results? It was. There was no resistance. You were like, "But that's the sweater that my anti-Janey gave me." No, I mean, who's the lady you had in your podcast that wrote that book on Marie Kondo? Yes. Technically, Maria Kondo is how they would say in Japanese, but Marie Kondo. Yeah. Marie Kondo, yeah. She's awesome. So I listened to her audiobook. And one of the things that she says in her audiobook is that the way that you can depart with something is to realize that it has already taught you its lesson. And that lesson may be that it wasn't for you. So if you have it hanging in your closet and you look at it and you're like, "Oh, but someday I might know the lesson is that it spent its time with you. It wasn't for you and it should go to a good home or can be appreciated by someone else." And so my lesson is not to buy it again. And so I took that and I've applied that to thinning out pretty much everything in my life. And so every single day, and I think that a lot of people, there's like this analysis paralysis thing where you think about cleaning out the garage, or you think about doing this massive overhaul in your life, and you're like, "Oh, you know, it's the weekend. I got to do this." And there's always something that jumps in front of it in terms of priorities. For me, it's like, I find that if I just say, "Okay, one thing a day," like, at the end of the year, I may not be to my goal, but after five years, I certainly will.


Remove the most unnecessary things in your life (22:53)

It's not like I have that much stuff, but just really saying, "Do I need this in my life? And is it bringing joy to my life?" I think is such a good forcing function to get rid of a lot of stuff. And everything that you get rid of is actually less of a mental load on you. There was this old T-Master that I met one time. And Tim and I have done some crazy travels all throughout China in T-Lands. But there was this one guy I met. Oh, the stories we could tell. Yeah, seriously. We've done some crazy stuff in the middle of the Yunnan province. Nothing sexual. That was our friend. We had a friend that did something. So, long story short, the one thing that this T-Master showed me is he pulled out of his pocket one key. And he showed me the one key and he goes, "Kevin, do you know what this is?" As he gets a key. And he's like, "Yeah, it's the key to my house. This is my one key." I've worked my entire life to have one key, because we can all have multiple keys, meaning the things that you purchase, whether you have a key to your boat or your spare garage or another motorcycle or whatever it may be. There's things in your life that you accumulate. And the least amount of burden and the most happiness you can get is having less stuff to worry about. And so, I find that to be really true. And so, that's what I've been trying to focus on is just having less and being happy with a very handful of high quality things. I also want to mention that it's possible to read a book like Marie Kondo's book, which I can never remember the title of. Because I want to say it's like the magic art of Japanese tidying up. And it's like, no, it's something close.


The KonMar a (24:42)

It's like the art of the joy of magic cleaning up. I can never remember the exact phrasing. I don't know why. But in any case, that Cole following with her book leads some readers to think it's an all or nothing, take it or leave it approach. So you, on the other hand, have philosophically found bits and pieces of that book that are very useful to you, but are tactically actually doing the opposite of what she recommends, but it works for you. So she recommends doing this once in a lifetime tidying Super Bowl, basically, where you block out two or three days of your life. And that's what you do. And then the rest is maintenance. It's kind of like the fast mimicking diet of Japanese tidying. You have this loading phase. And I've had this book. I actually am looking at it on my bookshelf right now for like two years. And I'm just like, man, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. And then I'm like two to three days. I look at my calendar. I'm like, no, I'm not going to do it. I'm just not going to do it. So I like the idea tactically of one at a time, one per day. And also what's helped me because I do, I have actually been since I moved to Austin, not too long ago, it's been a great opportunity after boxing everything up. It's like, okay, do I really want to unbox all this stuff or do I just want to donate a lot of this because it might be from a one to 10 scale of value, a two to me, or maybe a one, maybe a three. But I could donate this very easily to Goodwill or somewhere else to say a high school gym that needs equipment, which is something I've done in the past. And it's an immediate eight, nine or 10. It's just a better, it's a nice, karmic chess move to donate. And you think of not what you're losing, but also what you're giving to someone else in that respect, which I find really helpful. So you're giving away one item per day.


Health Focus And Wellness Strategies

Dharming + Retrieval Strategy Select (26:44)

The other thing too, I will tell you along those lines is that if there is a purchase that I want to make, that is not just what I would consider to be a necessity, like toilet paper or whatever it may be. And it's something that is luxury or not luxury, but in the sense of like, you know, it's going to cost you over $100 and I don't necessarily need it, but I kind of want to try it. What I do is I save for later on Amazon, so you can add and say save for later, and you know, set a reminder in your calendar app for a week or two weeks later, and almost 90% of the time I end up not buying that thing. I still have one thing in there actually from you. It's that not NAC knock supplement. Yeah. And I buy that and it's not the same yet.


Jacks Predictor (27:34)

Well, any see, so this is, I should say with all of this stuff that we're discussing, because it bears repeating, we are not doctors. We don't play them on the internet. So everybody, everybody should assume that at least 50% of what we're saying is complete fucking nonsense. And we are just not sure which 50% it is. So work with a qualified professional before you start taking or stopping any type of medication or supplement. The NAC came to me initially because I was looking at it as a means to accelerate recovery between workouts. And my understanding, I might be getting this wrong, but is that it is a precursor to glutathione, which some people think of as this master antioxidant or upstream antioxidant that has a host of beneficial effects. And what I noticed in taking the NAC is that I was over the period of a week to 10 days, perhaps seven, eight days into it, that I was more even killed than was typical. I felt that the week had been very smooth and I hadn't changed anything else that I could identify. I'd been either meditating or not meditating for a series of weeks. There were a lot of constants.


First Signs Of Mental Health (28:58)

And when I went on to PubMed and began to look at an acetylcysteine and search for other terms like depression or bipolar and so on, there were a number of search results that popped up that seemed to indicate to me that there was some promise in using NAC to mitigate the amplitude of the ups and downs that could be associated with a bipolar. And that's the primary reason that for periods of time and I cycle off of all of these things, I become very fascinated by NAC, which quite nicely does have potentially recovery benefits from an athletic standpoint. Although most of my athletic prowess has been focused on eating oatmeal cookies recently. So I can't really claim that I'm doing a lot of killer workouts. I got RABDO from eating oatmeal cookies for you crossfitters out there. That's for you. But the other would be something you and I are both familiar with, which is LODO's lithium orate. Very, very LODO's lithium orate, five milligrams, which you can find on Amazon and elsewhere. And there's a great New York Times article which people can find very easily that is titled along the lines of maybe we all just need a little bit of lithium. And it talks about the inverse correlation of groundwater concentrations of lithium with, I want to say, at least reported suicide, homicide, manic depression, and so on. So those two for me function in tandem or at least appeal to me for very similar reasons.


Using supplements (30:39)

So the NAC, should you use it or not, I think is a question of whether you feel you need it. And for me, at least currently, I get asked all the time, like, what are your top 10 supplements that you're using right now? Because people have this impression after reading the fire body and so on that. I walk around with a drip IV bag in my arm and have a thousand pills I'm taking four times a day. I've certainly seen you in that mode. You've seen that. No, you have seen me in that mode, but my mode right now is to really ensure that I am using supplements as supplements. Right. And that I'm not using them to absolve me of the responsibility to eat proper food, for instance. And it's like, look, if you're drinking a lot and you're like compulsively watching porn and not exercising and like mainlining pixie sticks for your diet, and you're like, wow, I'm depressed. Maybe I should take 15 different supplements. It's like, no, you need to fucking fix the rest of your life. Right. Right. And then see what your baseline is because you're creating so much static and noise and garbage inputs that you don't even know what your baseline is. It's so disguised with sort of the trauma and confusion of your inputs that you need to do. Do you track your baseline? Like, do you log what you consume and what you take? I log, you know, my baseline is going to sound so primitive than it is, but my baseline is really, how do I feel when I wake up? Do I want to stay in bed because I don't want to face the day? Am I anxious? Are those my first thoughts coming out of bed? Assuming that I'm not checking my phone, right? Because it's really my starting state out of the gate of sleep to wakefulness. And then at night, how much trouble do I have sleeping? If any, or do I fall asleep easily? How deep is my sleep? And so for deepness of sleep, you could certainly use something like an aura ring or an accelerometer. I mean, there are different means by which you could try to assess the quality of your sleep. But for me, really looking at how consistently I feel good waking up and how long it takes me to get up to, say, first or second gear. Because it historically has taken me a long time to go from park to like second or third gear. Some people wake up, you might be one of these people and they're like, "Fuck it world, here I am. I'm ready to party." That's not me. It's like I have a real slow build. I think I'm in between you and that. I'm definitely not ready to party the second I wake up. I'm after coffee. I'm a cup of coffee. I'm ready to party. So I feel that way if, for instance, I'm in ketosis, passed about two millimolars. I need less sleep. So let's call it six versus eight hours. And when I wake up, I am awake. Versus feeling groggy for an hour to an hour and a half, which can be remedied somewhat by the psychological advantage of exercising in the morning, which is one thing I've been scheduling to do more of per Jocko Willink, retired Navy SEAL commander and all around in intense, intense, accomplished guy. People can find him, tune.blog/jocko, first ever public interview. So I'm thrilled to have unleashed the giant white gorilla on the internet. And baseline though, to return to your question, is really something I try to keep as simple as possible. Do I and have I measured all those other things? Yes. But I think that whether it's with your body or with a business or any number of other things, it's really easy to become addicted to measuring things that don't matter very much. Or we're still measuring things that will distract you from the things that do matter. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, it totally makes sense. I've tried to kind of pare it down to just the stuff I really care about. I just sent you a link in our video chat to my dashboard for the things I measure every day. Cool. So for me, you know, I'm really concerned about my glucose levels because they are a tiny bit elevated. So I do waking glucose, bedtime glucose. I do whether I meditated that day or not. I do how many hours I fasted the night prior. I do how many drinks I've had. And then I do what type of workout, whether I had tea or coffee that day. And then my food. But food not in terms of kind of a by the calorie, you know, super anal kind of breakdown, but really just typing out what I ate for that day as a way to hold myself accountable and just like look over the last few days at a glance and see if I've been behaving or not. So I find that just the act of writing it down makes me behave a little bit better. It does. Okay. That was going to be my question is how does that actually impact your behavior?


Tracking your drinks for accountability (Ramifinoous App) (35:25)

Yeah, you know, I this is a fascinating question. I didn't experiment here about three weeks ago with a group of five friends. And I asked them all, I created this spreadsheet that we all logged into every single day. And what you do is you record the number of drinks you had the night before. And I was thinking about turning this into an app, although I'm not going to do it, but I was interested in trying to create social pressure to drink less. That's a drink more but to drink less. And the thing that I found that was really interesting is that if you drink over two drinks at a night, people have some shame in reporting that. And so they will miss report. And so, you know, if you went on, you had like four or five drinks, it's like, Oh, I don't want to be the guy that had the one asshole in the spreadsheet. Right. Exactly. So I changed it then. So the spreadsheet would only say two plus. And so that's the max you could go. And then people were a lot more like open to being like, yeah, I had two plus last night. You know, there were a lot more at ease, but still create a little bit of social pressure and personal pressure. If you looked at your list and you're like, Oh, there's been four nights of two plus there. I should probably do a night without drinking. Right. So my idea was to create an app that would allow you just to say up to two plus and see all of your friends in the same arena and then kind of hopefully encourage you to be able to drink socially but not take it too far. Yeah, this brings up all sorts of really fascinating and frustrating methodological questions in terms of designing this type of reporting, right? Because I was thinking to myself, as you were saying this, well, if you had a larger group, say a group of 200 people, you would have one would expect you would have more people in that group reporting drinking two, three, four drinks on any given night. Right. So the shame factor would be decreased. But if you decrease the shame factor, that also decrease the incentive to actually behave, right? Because you can blend into this right perceived acceptability of being like, well, there are the 10 other people out of 200 who had four drinks last night. That's totally fine. Well, the question is like, how well do you know the people one? So how tired are they and your social connections in your peer group? And then also, I think that there is, Brendan Mulligan, I'll call him out because he's a friend of ours, he works at Google, he never drinks. He is like one drink, one drink, one drink, one drink every four days or whatever. And seeing him hit those streaks of zero drinks, zero drinks, that was also a pretty powerful thing. And I'm saying, I need to be more like Brendan, I need to dial it back. So it goes both ways. Yeah, that's true. I suppose if you're seeing friends of yours doing well, who doing well, who have demanding jobs, demanding relationships, you can't use that as your excuse when you have the data right in front of you showing, that they're actually behaving. So you you historically have been a non trivial drinker, let's call it a let's like a minor league all star of of booze consumption. I used to drink a lot more to be honest. You can see my spreadsheet here. So what has helped you most to decrease the amount that you drink?


Why Tim has cut down on alcohol (38:43)

Well, I think there is fear. You know, I've seen a bunch of studies, there was one that was just published here a couple of weeks ago, said the number one, the largest study ever around dementia and alcohol abuse. And they're very closely linked, which is really frightening. And I think just wanting to live longer for my daughters, but another one back to the point that you had earlier about what has changed. And just getting older, you know, hangovers, get up, it happened at two and a half drinks these days. Right. So it's like, why, why roll the dice? And so for me, it's finding, to get your question around what have I done differently, there's a couple things. One, I've kind of set aside time to learn at night, which I think is really important, and you really can't drink and learn at the same time. So or remember what you attempt to learn. Right, exactly. And the second thing that has been hugely though has been the sauna. The sauna has been massive, because it is like four drinks or three drinks just by going and doing a 30 minute high intense heat sauna session. And you come home and you sleep like a baby. And you know, if you don't have a sauna that can also be substituted with a really hot bath and just finding ways to, it's like, it's always been about, I'm with my wife, I'm sitting down, and we're going to crack open a bottle wine and I'll have a couple glasses of wine. It's never been like, Hey, let's go party. Those days are long gone, like, you know, a decade plus gone. I've no decade, decade plus. Listen, if we're out traveling together, Tim, I'm going to, we're going to have fun, right? So the only times you and I hang is like, when we're traveling together, so you can't like, you can't put that on me. That's true. All right, fair enough. We're in different cities now. I will say, for those people who are like, wait, they can see each other. We are doing a very intimate video chat on Skype that you will be able to see on my YouTube channel, just youtube.com/Tim Ferris to our two S's and Kevin is dressed for success, I will note. He is, I just had a part meeting this morning. So we dress up a little bit. No, I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So, so I gave you that look, traveling's a bit of an exception. Now, how do you prevent yourself? You like, you have traveled a lot in some cases historically. Now that may change with your daughter, but how do you prevent that from becoming the excuse to drink that happens frequently? Does that make sense? Because this happens in all sorts of capacities, right? Where people will say, yeah, oh, you're traveling, you should eat pizza every night, right? I hear that and I'm like, if I if I followed that rule, I'll be job of the hut because I'm, I end up traveling so much. If I allowed myself that out, it would become a real problem. Yeah, yeah, traveling is difficult and especially when it's in kind of a social setting. You know, if you combine traveling with social, like, you know, I'll be going to, to, to 10 in a couple weeks and I know that there's just going to be a lot of parties and a lot of events and a lot of drinking. So, I think that's one of the things that I need to work on is that I have a hard time dealing with like large groups of people that I don't know. And as a social lubricant, alcohol is amazing, right? So it's like, what else can we do? And I think that someone was telling me this, that, you know, you never really strengthen that muscle, like if you're leaning on the crutch of alcohol. So you're never going to become more comfortable with new humans and new interactions and new ways of like kind of breaking the ice if you always just go to the booze, right? So I think of it as like, okay, this is my workout I'm going into.


Life Balance And Personal Experiments

Kevin cuts down on alcohol (42:25)

And the other thing I do is I, so I got a couple of little hacks. One is to show up a little bit late. So you then you skip a drink, right? And it's funny how if you skip a drink or two and you get there and people are already a little hammered, how unattractive and unappealing drinking them becomes because you look at it and it's like, hey, it's good to see you notice like a little bit sloppy and it's a little, and you look at that and you're like, okay, they're relaxed. They're not going to like, you don't remember what I said anyway. Not that that that hammer, but you know what I mean, they're in their relaxed state. So I can be a little bit more joky and be myself and not have to worry about being hammered. And so I think that that's a big piece of it. You know, when I'm at home, you're going to laugh at this, but on Amazon, I went in, I bought these speaking of buying more things and probably I'm going to throw any here. I bought these measuring cups that measure out exactly one glass of wine. And so what I do there is like, you know, a bottle of wine, we all know is like, kind of like a half bottle of wine is like kind of two and a half maybe, you know, it's up there. And it's very easy. Like, like, Daria will just like have a little bit less than me and I'll say, okay, well, I'll just wait till it gets halfway and then I'll stop, you know, to try and, but you're actually drinking more than you think. So yeah, plus with a wine glass, maybe if you have a large wine glass, you can drink like a third of a bottle or supposed to have a bottle very easily. Right. Exactly. So what I do now is I bought this measuring glass off of Amazon. I feel that perfectly poured in, get my second glass, fill it perfectly and pour it in. And so that's all of my alcohol for the night. It stops me at two drinks. And I, I really take my time with it then. You know, I have dinner. I slowly sip it. I look at it, you know, I go sit down, might watch a little John Oliver or something and then just like continue to sip on it. And so that's my way of locking in. I know no more past that. It prevents any hangovers. You know, my doctor says it's pretty good for you to have a glass or two a night. So, and then also, dude, don't laugh at me. It is good for you. Okay. Yeah, I'll go with this. No, but then it's also just taking nights off altogether. I think that's the other big piece of it. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Good for you, man. I love it. Now you mentioned one other thing. Actually, a couple of other points, because I've been also cutting back on alcohol quite a bit. I still enjoy alcohol. Not gonna lie. Like I do have booze on occasion. I love your drunk like a drunk dials. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, those are, those are fun. So, for those who don't know, occasionally I do these drunk dial episodes where I will see the laziest podcast format thought up, I think to date perhaps, which is I have listeners fill out a Google form with their contact info. And I set a time like a two hour window where I will call people via Skype and drink, start drinking at call one and drink all the way through to say call 10 and get progressively more inebriated as I answer questions. So that is fun. I did one about a week ago. It was a good time. And then I thought, you know, I should do another episode today. And I was like, I just don't want to do two nights of sipping tequila on Skype.


Brad experimenting with consistent sleep, how club soda works (45:37)

And a few things that have also helped me. Number one is, and this is not an excuse everyone's going to be comfortable using. But if I go to a party and they're like, Hey man, you're not drinking with fuck like, I should not know. I'll be like, yeah, I'm on a bunch of weird drugs. Like I just actually, I'm not really supposed to take out. I'm not supposed to drink alcohol right now, which, Oh, that stops the conversation right there. That's brilliant. Yeah. Well, it stops the push, right? Right. And then it also starts another conversation, which is, well, what kind of weird shit are you on? And if you at any given point, I think it's fair to say that I could answer it in the affirmative to are you on any weird shit? Like I'm almost always doing something odd. It might not be a lot of stuff, but I'm probably trying something new. And that stops people cold. If they're like, Oh, wow. I mean, it could be Tylenol. Like if you're taking acetaminophen in any capacity, people may not realize this, but some absurd percentage of emergency visits and liver failures are associated with high dose acetaminophen, which is not that much. It's something like two or three times the label allowable amount over 24 hours. It's really a potent and potentially dangerous drug. So that's one is like, Hey, I'm actually on this. I'm on A, B and C, or I'm on a bunch of weird stuff at the moment. And I'm just not supposed to drink. Works really well. In second, this is actually advice that Richard Branson gave on this podcast is having club soda with a dash of cranberry juice or something like that. And just using that as your default go to. And one thing that I do, which is going to sound really odd, and it is odd, but I have a superstition about say, Cheersing, right, clinking glasses when I don't have any alcohol in my glass. Oh, interesting. This is your tell. This is this is something. Well, it's kind of a tell. But what I'll do is I will sometimes also go up to the bar and I'll say, just give me a tiny splash, like a, like the equivalent amount that would be in a thimble or something like that. And then I'll, then I'll cut myself off at that. And that's the amount that I allow myself. That's another approach that I take to cut back on the on the booze. You mentioned though, that you've been trying to learn at night and that the booze is not conducive to learning at night. What are you trying to learn at night with types of things? And what's the format? Are you reading 100 pages a night? Or what is it? Honestly, have you heard of this Coursera course called learning how to learn? I have not. Who teaches? Oh, so it's done by a couple professors. And I'm actually in the middle of that right now. It was another kind of biohacker recommended to me. Yeah, apparently it's the number one watched course on Coursera right now. And it's just been fascinating how they dig into the science of learning and like how you go in this kind of like focused or diffuse mode and how to really go in and concentrate on something and when the optimal time is to learn. And it's all the science around learning. What do you know that? Oh, sorry, interrupt. Go ahead. I'm just getting, I'm just getting started with it. So that's what I've been diving into and kind of spinning my nights watching those videos. But it talks about the importance of actually getting away from your material. So like getting really focused and setting a timer for 25 minutes maximum, going really in depth on the course material and then backing away and kind of going into this more relaxed mode. They were talking about how was it Benjamin Franklin, a camera who was that used to hold a pair of keys in their hand. And then kind of in Salvador Dali did this as well actually. Hold a pair of keys in your hand. You kind of just go into this relaxed state thinking about what you want to learn and where you almost fall asleep. And when you drop the keys out of your hand and it wakes you up, that's when you kind of go back and then you realize you were successful like getting that that relaxed and you'll retain and become more creative and I don't know, it's just fascinating stuff. And so I'm just getting started with the course. It's free. Very cool. Yeah, the intervals and the duration of intervals for learning along with break periods is something that I've experimented a lot with as it relates to language learning because it's so measurable. You can look at say your recall of foreign vocabulary, assuming you're controlling for a few different variables, right? So adjectives are generally going to be harder than nouns, for instance. But if you're controlling for that, you can look at what your retention is, say 48 hours later, for 100 words you attempted to learn in one session versus two sessions versus three sessions with different types of breaks. And I did that when I was looking at a few different languages specifically over 2004, 2005, I actually have never shown you these notes. I have text to edit documents with all of my notes on language learning for about a year, year long period looking at all of this type of stuff. And there were some very clear patterns such as focusing on the material right before bed, right? With no interruption. So much like how it's recommended by many names, both you and I know that you meditate first thing in the morning before you brush your teeth, before you check your phone, before anything else, when you have this tabula rasa blank state of sorts, focusing on material that you want to consolidate in memory and recall later, right before bed, at least in my experience dramatically improves recall. And then this is actually very important, not just doing that, but when you wake up before doing anything else, which for me would override meditation, doing a recall exercise of some type, I tend to use flashcards to determine which have stuck and which have not. So those that have not, since I'm looking at language, I would usually I would give myself like a quarter of a second. It couldn't be delayed because in speech, you're not going to have the luxury of sitting there pause for long periods of time. It would go back into the rotation for review again throughout that day and later that night. But that's that is proven really, really helpful. How about exercise? One of the things they mentioned in this course is this idea of doing cardiovascular exercise. I believe it's post learning something new. And apparently this science was saying that it just sticks that much more. I don't have any numbers in front of me, but it was it was something along. Have you heard anything about that? So I have in terms of spacing, or I'm sorry, that the timing of exercise, I have less clarity, but there's an entire book called Spark that talks about the, among other things, the role of exercise in education and learning and would point to things like BDNF, the release of brain drive neurotrophic factor, which can be elicited through different types of exercise. And part of me thinks that when one says because these are the easiest to study, or very often the easiest to study cardiovascular exercise, this is where it comes down to try to become literate with reading scientific studies or understanding how things typically work. So as a couple of baselines, scientific studies usually use volunteer populations known as students. And those students have 45 minute class blocks or 60 minute class blocks. So to keep those students busy, people are very often disincentivized from using shorter duration, say, high intensity training, or something like that, weightlifting, for instance, resistance training. And if you want to, as an experimenter, design something that requires as little monitoring as possible, it's like, all right, stick them on a stationary bike, right? If you have people doing burpees or deadlifts, like you actually need to pay burpees. Yeah, but you need to pay attention, right? You need to pay attention if people are lifting weights and so on. There are more safety concerns. So I think that, and just to point out perhaps the obvious that weightlifting is actually one of the most cardiovascular activities you could possibly engage in. But I won't digress into that. You can look at a book called Body by Science for all the details and why that is the case. But it would make sense to me that exercise could certainly play a role in increasing cognitive function. But one of the questions that I ask myself all the time, when, and this is a good question for people to ask themselves when they see a headline that makes a scientific claim, is what else could explain this? Like what else might explain this?


How to REally Focus on Academics (54:22)

So if you're looking at cardiovascular exercise right after some type of cramming with material, you could make the argument that perhaps it's not the exercise at all. It's the fact that they're going into a semi-mindless or meditative repetitive period where they're able to they're subconscious somehow work on the material, right? Right. Well, that's exactly what this discourse teaches is how to get into those periods. Yeah, 100%. So the I have certainly seemed to observe that exercise in some capacity, for me, it's generally some type of resistance training does have a positive effect on learning. So yet another reason to get off your ass, which is something I need to do more of. I've digressed, I've fallen off the train a little bit, Kevin Rose, I'll be honest. But I shall get back on the train. Yeah, so fortunately, once you have a recipe that works, you have the confidence that you can get back on. That's the good news, right? With say the fast moving diet, not that you should use that for body composition, but fast moving diet or intermittent fasting, which a lot of people use your app zero for or slow carb diet, plus a handful of things like kettlebell swings. I just know, this is why I'm not stressed out about being off the rails. I kind of make fun of myself about it. Because it's like, look, if I just follow the prescription, like follow the algorithm for three to four weeks, there's no magic involved. Yeah, it will work. And I will have less like muffin top to grab when I'm in the sun, which will make me happy. Muffin top in the sun is the work. Yes, you can just see that little layer, this little boop. Yeah, well, you also have like the glistening cinnabon effect, because you're sweating. It's a really unattractive look. Yeah, it's not a good look. It's not good. One thing I did want to talk about, which I think would be fun to chat about because we've both done it real quick is Tony Robbins. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it for sure. So you recently had, I've done two different Tony Robbins events, UPW, Unleashed Power Within, which was my first event. And then more recently in December of this last year, date with Destiny, which is a longer event. Oh, you did that. I didn't know you did date with Destiny. I did. I did. So I've done two events. And some people have had a bit of exposure to date with Destiny through the I Am Not Your Guru documentary, which was co-produced, in fact, by someone who's been on this podcast, Brian Copleman, really accomplished filmmaker. But what was your experience like? First Tony Robbins event? Yeah, I mean, it was kind of crazy. Thanks to you, I got hooked up with him and went down and got a chance to meet him and hang out with him. I think that Tony is this kind of, he's proven himself now that he's been doing this for so long, he's doing it for 40 plus years. But I think that in the back of my mind, I kind of remember when I was a little kid, the kind of like audio tape version, infomercial version of Tony. So there's always this stigma in my mind that was like, oh, is he trying to sell me something? What's going on here? And I also watched his documentary and I was like, wow, this guy is clearly brilliant. He takes the stuff very seriously and he's truly breaking through to people and helping people change their lives. And so he was like, hey, I'm going to be in the Bay Area. You should come down. I was like, okay, that sounds awesome. Took a buddy of mine that has a lot of anxiety. And he showed up going named buddy. He wanted to go and he was like, Kevin, let's do this. And I was like, okay, let's do it. So went down for the three day event. And I thought it was great. I got to tell you it's you walk into it and I was in an arena where there was 12,000 people. And so there is a lot of people there. And everybody is coming there for a different reason, right? So I was sitting across from a guy that had lost his legs and was previously a drug addict. And I think he had some infection, his legs or something, he had to have both amputated. I was sitting next to someone that she was running her own social media business and just wanted to get better with her business and improve her finances. And she was getting through a relationship that she had just ended. So everyone had something to come in and bring to the table. Of course, we all do. For honest with ourselves, everyone has something they're trying to work on. And so I went in there and day one was awesome. I mean, Tony got out there and he spoke for like, I don't know, 12 hours. We were there until after he's complete mutant. Yeah, it's unbelievable. I don't even know when he pees. Yeah. I have no idea when he uses the bathroom or drinks water. Yeah, just yeah, it's just a machine, the guys machine machine. But you know, I walked over the coals with him and he was like, bring out some fresh coals for Kevin. And of course, they put like fresh that you walk you actually walk over coals at the end of the night. You've done this, right? I have. Yeah. Did he bring out fresh coals for you? I can't recall. If he brought out fresh coals for me, I think that might have been the VIP treatment that you received. It was a lot of fun. And I think that the biggest takeaway for me was really a couple things.


The Wheel of Life (59:39)

One was definitely this thing called the wheel of life. Did you have to do that? Will you feel like you're real? I'm sure I did. I'm sure I did. And I should also point out that for the attendees at these events, and I have a little bit more to say about this, but the exercises that really, and they, they, there are very tactical, prescriptive exercises, but that the exercises that change someone else's trajectory and give them extremely concrete next steps that have an impact are very often completely different exercises from those that affect the person right next to you. It's really something to behold. But tell us about the, the wheel of life. Yeah. So the wheel of life was interesting in that basically he gives you these areas of your life and you're to rank them from zero to 10 on how far along and how kind of just happy you are with those, with those areas. So for example, physical body, right? So for me, I was like, I got to give myself a four in this arena. I could be doing a lot better. And then there's emotions and meaning. Another one is relationships. Another one is time. Another one is your career and your mission in life. And then there's finances. And then the last one is how you contribute, like how you give back, how you celebrate and contribute. And so you go from, from kind of zero to 10 and you rank these out and you'll see my wheel doesn't actually look like a wheel. It's like kind of lopsided, but that's by, that's by design. By the time you look at this, it gives you a clear view of like, okay, I really need to step out how I contribute and give back. And so that allowed me to go really deep in my own personal life and say, what does it mean to contribute and give back for me? And like, you know, you and I have both done things in terms of like going out and, you know, charity, water, Tony Hawk Foundation and giving away money, but like just supporting a cause and writing a check. I don't know how you feel about this, but for me, it doesn't really mean that I'm giving back. I don't really feel like I'm contributing. Yes, I'm giving like cash, but I'm not actually taking part in that process.


The Dads Challenge (01:01:46)

I'm not actually really helping out. Like anyone can write a check. So what does it mean for me to contribute? And the thing and the realization that I came to and actually, there's some really powerful moments in this, this conference where they turn out the lights and they like make you revisit like certain times in your childhood and all these things. And you know, I felt myself kind of tearing up because one of the things I realized that I was not giving back in and contributing in a meaningful way. And the thing that I came to and that I realized is that my mother was verbally abused by my father for many, many, many years. And, you know, definitely abusive behavior, never physically harmed her. But you know, I would say that the mental harm was is better, if not worse, than than some of the physical harm.


Pumps Books Needed to Research Tools of Titans For This Episode (01:02:38)

And I realized that I want to actually lean in and help out women that have been abused and that are currently in abusive relationships. And so a goal of mine over the next couple of years is finding the best possible way to contribute back to that, not just in forms of another check, but actually how I can get involved and whether it means helping them build their products and build it better website or mobile apps or any way that I can enable and use my technology skills to help with their business, I think, would be something that would mean a lot to me. So that was a great experience to have. And I wouldn't have that if it wasn't for Tony. And that was just one of many things I got out of the weekend. So I would say that, you know, he's a badass. It was pretty awesome. Yeah, he's a real master of his craft. And what I would say to folks who have a certain image of Tony is that when you go to an event like this, I think the right way to approach it is to be skeptical, but not cynical and open to trying all of the exercises he suggests, and that there are going to be components that may not agree with you in the sense that there's a lot of jumping around, there's a lot of music, there's a lot of noise for lack of a better word, and a lot of those elements made me uncomfortable. They're not things that I would seek out. Oh my god, I could not see you dancing and jumping around. Right, right? It's just not my thing. So but the filter that I used going into it or the lens through which I was looking at, it was it was made easier because one of my very close friends, I've known since college, who's had multiple company exits is extremely, extremely accomplished. And he goes to unleash the power within every year as a reset. He's been 11 times, maybe 12 now, he's been to date with destiny six times. And this and this guy is not a seminar junkie. He's not someone who avoids the work and goes to listen to a motivational speech so that he can feel better on a sugar high for two days and not take any next steps like this is not that guy. He is an operator. So the fact that he had been so many times really led me to want to stick with the entire event. And I'm like, not gonna lie, I had hard points. And then I mentioned this to you and it may not be the exercise that had a large impact on you, but the Dickens process that I ended up along with Tony including in Tools of Titans, one of my more recent books because it had such a big impact, made the entire event an easy like 10 to 100 extra turn for me. That was the last day too. That's right. So just that 30 to 60 minute exercise led me to dramatically improve my relationship with my father to take responsibility for certain things that I had been telling myself were unchangeable to really buckle down and step into discomfort to make some meaningful changes. And the those are changes, at least the power within I want to say I went to now it's got to be three to five years ago. Those changes, the ripple effects of those changes that I made then are still very tangible now and then date with Destiny very similar. But to go into it expecting that if you step into it and accept some level of discomfort and commit to trying everything, this is just my view that at least 50% you're going to end up discarding. Probably 20% you're going to find really uncomfortable and you're going to dislike actively. And then I tend to 25% you're going to go, "Holy shit, I can't believe how powerful that just was." And it's not a lot of hand-wavy woo-woo ambiguity. These exercises are really, really, really specific. So you don't have to accept Tony as your one and only savior. You don't have to believe that he is flawless because he is not. He's just like everyone else. He's an imperfect creature trying to do the best with the gifts and talents he's developed. But the guy knows his shit and he actually he actually really cares. And as I've gotten to know him over the last few years more and more so, I've become more impressed with him, not less impressed. And that is at least if one were thinking of let's say attending one of these events and I have zero vested interest and sending anyone to these events other than they've had a material impact on my life. And that's why I was happy to see that you're going to attend. That they go in with an open mind expecting that much like if you read any type of book, you're not expecting every line to be a life-changing piece of gold, you're hoping that net net it's going to be worth the time that you invested. That's been my takeaway that it's absolutely been worth the time invested. Yeah, 100% agree. And I think that like you going into this was certainly a really uncomfortable thing for me in terms of when they first start the music and people come out on stage and they start dancing. And you can tell the people that have been there before because they immediately like jump out of their seats and like start like kind of rocking out and throwing their hands there. And I'm thinking to myself, I hate dancing. I hate dancing. I've never liked dancing with anyone. My wife or anyone. I always feel so awkward when I'm doing it, you know, like I'm like a geek that likes to like sit in front of my computer at night. And so it's like that I thought something another friend had told me that had gone and said, "Hey, Kevin, like you just have to go with it. Like if you want to get anything out of it, you have to realize that he's doing this by design to put you into a certain state." Right? He wants to get you into an optimal state and optimal. That can mean like one example of one thing that we did is we took something that was very serious to us. Like something like a limiting belief that you had held so seriously. And you say it out loud in a very choking and like laughing way and everybody like 12,000 people are all doing it at the same time. And you're like laughing and saying it. And it's kind of like breaking it down in your mind and letting you know that you don't have to take it so seriously. And you can joke about it and have fun with it because it's been forever since you've probably ever done that in your life. Like the one was the last time you were able to take something that you held so seriously and so guarded and have a good time with it. And so he knows how to set up these little traps for you that trick you into reframing things in your mind. And it really does change your long-term perspective on things. And yeah, I'm a fan. I would definitely go back again. I did the three-day event. The Unleashed, the Power Within, the same one as you. But yeah, I had fun with it. So thanks for helping out with that. Yeah, man, my pleasure. I would suggest also that that's that's Molly saying hello in the background for those people who can hear my dog barking. But that is as a as a point of social proof. And of course, Tony is fully aware of the sort of gravitas this would bring. But there are people, for instance, Mark Benioff of Salesforce, which I think has more than 10 billion in annual revenue now, who will point blank say that Salesforce would probably not exist were it not for Tony Robbins and still attends some of these events. He was right behind me at Date with Destiny. He's a big guy. He and Tony are very similar in size. And then you have Paul Tudor Jones. You have some of the most sophisticated traders and financial minds who have worked with Tony for 10 to 20 years. And that's on an ongoing coaching basis because he does have very discreet, very tactical exercises and tools that help you to find blind spots and fully leverage the things that you're good at and so on. So it's not easy. It's not comfortable. But certainly I've been I've been very benefited by the time that I've spent considering these things.


Self-Development Lessons And Recommendations

Overcoming the voice of self-doubt (01:10:54)

And I'm biased because in high school, I read Unlimited Power by Tony, which had an impact. I then when I got out of college and had my first job and I was commuting in my piece of shit minivan, the green machine, which was just a complete disaster of a car. But I was trapped on 101 in the Bay Area for people who know, just bumper to bumper in rush hour to and from Mountain View to San Jose to work. And I would listen to this used set. I couldn't afford the full set, a new copy. So I had personal power to and cassette tape and listen to that, which helped get me to the point where I started my first company. And so Tony's made these appearances at very opportune moments in my life. And you know, he's not he like I said, I don't go to him for all things. I don't think that Tony has the answer to everything. But with particular types of self-imposed narratives and handicaps that you have built yourself or walls around certain types of thinking or certain types of emotions that perhaps served you very well in the past, but no longer serve you, he is exceptionally good at helping you work through all of that. Yeah, I just love that this whole genre, like the self-help genre is becoming like it's not as frowned upon as it used to be. Like, I don't know if you remember, but probably 10, 15, 20 years ago, like if you went to that area of like the bookstore, you were like, oh, look at like who's in the self-help section, like they must there must be something wrong with them. And now, no, seriously, they used to be the case. And now it's like, it's gone and he's probably at the center of it, but it's become this idea of not self-help, it's just like this idea that we're all on a journey of lifelong learning. And we all are done BSing ourselves. And there's not a single person that has all of life figured out. So why don't we all actively openly work on this together? And I think it's awesome. Yeah, and I should also say that at one point as an example, I was interviewed on the BBC and they wanted to talk about the self-help genre. And I knew it was going to be a setup, right? I knew that they wanted me to defend self-help and they wanted to attack self-help, right? And I knew this going in that this is what it was going to be, right? I figured it out about an hour beforehand when I got some notes and I was like, oh, I see where this is going. So they bring me out. This is a television show. And they say, good evening, Mr. Ferris. We just wanted to talk about that, ah, bio, bio, blah, blah, blah. What is your general opinion of the self-help genre, something along those lines? And in effect, I said, I think 99.9% of it is just horseshit. And I said it pains me sometimes to be associated with the label self-help for X, Y, and Z reasons. And then they didn't have a leg to stand on, right? Because I'd taken their side of the argument, which was kind of hilarious. And then I said, but at the same time, I think the label self-help has in many cases an unfairly negative connotation. Because A, if you look at almost any type of reading, whether it's a novel where people want to escape or it's nonfiction where they're hoping to learn more about, let's just call it Andrew Carnegie or you name the figure, there is, there is some motive behind that that they hope to help them, whether it's a shift of emotion, the gathering of knowledge they can impress people at a dinner party or otherwise. And that if I were to look at who I would say potentially emulate in the world of self-help, it would probably be someone like, this is the name you brought up earlier, Ben Franklin. Who most certainly wrote extensively about what we would consider today self-help, but he's not lumped into the category of, say, potential.


The concept of Self-Help (01:15:08)

And these people do exist. Certainly charlatans who are just selling a bill of goods that doesn't deliver, right? There are plenty of people who have not walked the walk and talk extensively about their expertise and make recommendations and prescriptions. There are people all over the world in every possible discipline who do this. And a lot of them tend to concentrate in this section of the bookstore called self-help, unfortunately. But it's that alone isn't enough to disqualify something. And certainly, if we look at the popularity of tutorials on YouTube, for instance, in any possible subject matter, if you look at the popularity of the creative lives and the Courseras and so on, everyone now has access to expertise that even 10 years ago would have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars to access if they had the ability at all. You look at, say, Harvard, MIT, Stanford, many of these schools that are putting their courses online, in some cases, for free access. And I know people who have taught themselves to code in this way. All of that is self-help, right? So it's important, I think, that people not disqualify exploring certain realms because of a label that really represents a concept which may or may not apply to what it is you're examining. Yeah, I mean, there's going to be scammers in every genre, too.


The biggest lessons Tim has Learned (01:16:40)

Yeah, I love how you show Rogan. I don't know if you've seen these postities done recently, but he does videos of these martial arts. Oh, yeah, legit as fuck. Yeah, that's a caption. That's a caption with their mind. Yeah, yeah, you're Rogan puts up these fake martial arts videos. I mean, they're not fake. They're videos of people who actually believe that what's happening is happening. But yeah, these like martial arts masters, self-described throwing people across the room with their chi explosions and so on. And his caption is usually legit as fuck or hashtag legit. It's so good. So good. Yeah, there's a lot of nonsense out there, but it doesn't mean that everything within a certain category is nonsense. Yeah, and it doesn't mean you should spend your entire life filtering for the 1%, but also there are ways that you can assess the validity of different paths. And quite frankly, I would recommend for those people who haven't, well, I'll give you two recommendations.


How to Tell Good Science From Bad Science (01:17:27)

So one is you can look at the back of the four hour body if you already have it, there's an appendix, which is effectively how to spot bad science. And it will help you to not trick yourself and also to get better at avoiding being tricked. So that's that's one recommendation and not to seem like I'm selling my own book. The excerpts for that appendix are from a book called bad science by a doctor named Ben Goldager, which is absolutely fantastic. So if you just want to be literate and better able, scientifically literate, or better able to separate the signal from the noise with the deluge of information that we are assaulted by every day, I would highly recommend that you check out one or one or both of those resources. You know, I was going to ask you tools of titans. I mean, obviously in your books, there have been tons of book recommendations.


And there was that one kid. Do you remember the kid that like took all and he had created, he took got all the books out of your recommendations and ranked them? Yeah, ranked him or just organized them as thumbnails. Yeah, I do remember that. Yeah, so the idea was that what is the most recommended book inside tools of titans across the board by all the people that were that were in that book and kind of stack ranking them based on the votes? Do you have that list anywhere? Do you have a list of like the most recommended books by all of your guests? Yeah, I do actually. And I'll pull it, I'll pull it up right now, because I put it, I put it on the blog for everybody. That's a great way. Yeah, I put it up. Yeah, it is a great way to cut through all the crap, you know, yeah, I put it up on the blog. And if you give me a second, I will find where it is. This might take a second. So I'm looking at tribamentor as the most recent. But the, where would I find this? If you go onto Tim.blog and search like tools of titans books, we can put a link in the show notes, right? We'll put a link in the show notes. So if you want a link, this will be the smarter way to do it. If you want to see a page where the most commonly recommended books from tools of titans and from tribamentor, so that combined, you're looking at about 500 different world class performers of all different disciplines, ranging from top professional athletes to chess prodigies to former generals, certainly 12 plus billionaires, then you will get to see rank ordered in terms of frequency, which books are most recommended. So I will put those in the show notes and you guys can find that at Tim.blog/podcast. If you want to see, you know, of these people who are the best at what they do, which books across disciplines that they recommend most often. A few of them just off the bat for people who are curious, man search for meaning by Victor Frankl, poor Charlie's almanac by Charlie Munger, Seeking Wisdom by Peter Bevelin, and certainly Atlas Shrugged, even though it's a controversial book, but Iron Rand comes up a lot in terms of developing a sense of personal agency. I think that has popped up quite a lot and many more, but I'll give you the full list because there are some that pop up quite frequently that you won't recognize at all. And those are to me, oftentimes, the really fun ones to explore.


References To Self-Help Authorities

The Self-Help Authority That We Should Follow (01:20:44)

Awesome. Yeah, I've got a bunch of audible credits waiting to be spent, so I'll do that. Awesome, man. Well, I think that this is a solid catch up. Yeah, thanks for having me on. And hey, I was fun to chat. And where can people learn more about Kevin Rose find you on the Interwebs? Yeah, certainly. My podcast is available at KevinRose.com. And then also, if you want to check out my free meditation app, it's 100% free, a little bit more traditional meditation. It's called Oak, and you can do that at oakmeditation.com. Nice and succinct. No social? I don't, you know, Twitter at Kevin Rose, but like, I don't know that I use it that much anymore. I'm more a newsletter guy. If you go to my website, if you sign up for my newsletter, I do a once a month newsletter. And that's kind of what I use. It's a good newsletter. I subscribe to it, which I can't say for many. And yeah, Twitter's turned into a bit of a nasty neighborhood on most days. You just feel like you're minding your business, whistling, walking down the street, then you have people throwing potted plants at your head. And then Facebook's a whole shit show. So it's like, it's the worst kind of show. What to do? Go back to the tried and true Instagram or email? Yeah. All right, my man. Well, thank you so much for taking the time. And hope to see you soon. Come visit Austin. Got a barrel son awaiting for you. Awesome. All right, man. See you. See you to everybody listening or watching on the YouTubes. You can find links to everything that we've talked about in the show notes, Tim.blog forward slash podcast. And until next time, be safe. Do not take meth for fun. Follow professional advice with anything medically related. And live the examined life just because it is self help doesn't mean it can't help you. So I'll leave with that. You . . . . .


Great! You’ve successfully signed up.

Welcome back! You've successfully signed in.

You've successfully subscribed to Wisdom In a Nutshell.

Success! Check your email for magic link to sign-in.

Success! Your billing info has been updated.

Your billing was not updated.