Tim Ferriss and Matt Mullenweg Get Personal in Antarctica | The Tim Ferriss Show | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Tim Ferriss and Matt Mullenweg Get Personal in Antarctica | The Tim Ferriss Show".


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Intro (00:00)

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Interview With Matt Mullenweg

Welcome Matt Mullenweg @MaTUtpreddie! (04:26)

that you can use. My guest today is one of my favorite guests and a good friend, Matt Mullenweg. Matt is a co-founder of the open source publishing platform WordPress, which now powers more than one-third of all sites on the web. He is the founder and CEO of automatic M-A-T-T. See what he did there? Automatic. The company behind WordPress.com, WooCommerce, Tumblr, WPVIB, Day 1 and Pocketcasts. Additionally, Matt runs Audrey Capital. Can you guess who that's named after? I'll give you three guesses. An investment in research company, he has been recognized for his leadership by Forbes, Bloomberg Business Week, Inc. TechCrunch, Fortune, Fast Company, Wired. It keeps going. Vanity Fair and the University Philosophical Society. Matt is originally from Houston, Texas, where he attended the high school for the performing and visual arts and studied jazz saxophone. In his spare time, Matt is an avid photographer. I encourage you to check out M-A-T-T. He currently splits his time between Houston and Jackson Hole for my first interview with Matt. Way back in 2015, where he had very long hair, go to tim.blog/mat. There was some tequila involved. As mentioned, you can find him online at m8.t. You can find him on Twitter @photomat. That tells you just how many photos he's taken. And on Instagram @photomat. Without further ado, please enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Matt Mullenweig. This is a new acoustic environment for me. So Matt Mullenweig will get to you and just to meet up. We're sitting here in a shell tent, which has surprisingly good acoustics, sitting inside a spherical curtain, I guess, to deaden the noise or deaden the echoes.

How to create timpodcastofyourdreams2.mp3 (06:16)

We are on top of ice. Miles of it. Miles of ice. We have two layers in this shell tent. Inside, we have a little fold-out table on which we have Bluetooth speaker. We have some caffeine. You have some water. How would you say this? Glenn Meringue. Glenn Meringue. Somebody's going to correct us here. Help us out. G-L-E-N-M-O-R-A-N-G-I-E. Highland single malt scotch. Whiskey. Legends. The Cad Bowl. Let somebody sort that out. And then we have a now gene bottle full of water. And then we have a now gene bottle that is colored. It is orange. And the reason that is orange is it's currently full of 28 ounces of my urine. Strong opens him. Does that need to be on the table? This is a reminder that I need to dispose of it. If you come to Antarctica, which is where we are right now, everything that is brought in needs to be carried out. That includes all human waste. Because if you pee in the snow here, it will be here for hundreds of years or thousands of years. In such case, you need to. If you have to pee when you're outside or you're in your tent and you're freezing your ass off and don't want to walk to one of the bathrooms, you need to pee into a bottle. So that's why I have a differently colored bottle. So I don't mistakenly assume as you might, because there are no bubbles here. This is my water. Which I guess it is in some sense. We used. Slightly used. So last time we did a podcast, I guess we were doing some back of the napkin is what? Five years ago? Five years ago. And a lot has happened in the last five years. But before we get to that, cheers, sir. Cheers. So fun to spend time with you, as always. And thanks for coming to Antarctica. Well, thank you for the invite. I'm so excited to finally come here for a million reasons. The principle of which is just getting to spend more time together, honestly. This is our fifth continent. So we got two more. That's crazy. And Australia. And then we'll have the hat trick. We'll have the hat trick of all seven. Yeah, we're day nine now in Antarctica. Day nine. We've been off the internet for a while, which I'm a little shaky. Yes. Yeah. It's like 98% of my brain. Some withdrawal symptoms. Wait, you have to now. We're going to get to the bow. Don't worry, folks. But one of your coping mechanisms, like the methadone for the internet addict, was downloading what did you download a lot of before you came here?

Books/music/podcasts downloaded (plural) (09:14)

Downloaded a good chunk of the Wikipedia. The Wikipedia, like the Facebook. I love the Wikipedia. Yes. It's a flare. And I download a Scrabble dictionary too. I remember last time I was in Antarctica in 2014. It was really just looking stuff up that I missed the most. And I've used it a number of times here. And also, I might have the fullest copy of the Wikipedia of our group. So that's like... It came in handy. Yeah. I wanted to look up a few factoids about Serinam and boom. There it was. There it was. There it was. But then I found out that Ernesto Hous to, who's one of my favorite kickboxes of all time, was born in Serinam later 1K won a million times. People who know what that is will know. I just long started to explain. But there were enough accompanying photographs. Of course. And I should say, just given the banal limitations. So here we are, day nine. You, I guess, were ruminating on what day it might be. And I had no idea because it is daylight all the time. 25 hours a day. And it is so bright. I had experienced 24 hour twilight once above the Arctic Circle in Alaska. But this is totally different. I mean, this is like laying on your back in Santa Barbara with the sun beating down on you at 10 a.m. on a perfectly bluebird day. It's so bright all the time. So everything kind of blends together. And you're not really sure when you should be tired or shouldn't be tired. You think it's 1 p.m. And we came back from an excursion today. And it was already 6.45. Something like that. It's really strange. It's super strange to not have a circadian rhythm modulated by light change to synchronize to. Super weird. It's been, yeah, it feels very timeless when we've been here. And day of the week, everything has been kind of lost. We also had a very special morning. We did. So before we get to the morning, Matt Mullenweg, for people who don't know, who are you?

Matt, for the uninitiated (11:24)

Ah, friend to Tim. But probably better known for co-founding open source software called WordPress, which is blogging, CMS, content management system, has over 50,000 plugins and themes.

What comprised the company in early days? (11:31)

And the CEO of a company was a lot smaller last time we talked called automatic. There's a mat in there. That's kind of a little pun. And we make WordPress.com. These places get WordPress WooCommerce, which is ecommerce built on top of WordPress. Tumblr, Jetpack, all sorts of day one, awesome journaling app, some notes, pocket cast for podcasting. So check out PocketCast. Great app.

Automatic's mission (12:00)

So we basically try to make the open web, make the web more open. And what percentage of the web uses one of those products or WordPress itself at this point? On the W3 text, WordPress is now up to 42%. It's probably like 10 last time we talked. That's incredible. It's coming up. And what would you guess five years ago roughly size of the company then and now? Then we were a couple hundred and now we're a couple thousand. We're coming up on 2,000 people, which has been really amazing. Distributed before it was cool. Yeah. That's worth noting. That was kind of a funny thing as well as I even started a podcast called Distributed. And I was like, okay, my goal for the 2020s, basically the next 10 years, was to get more remote work happening. Sorry about the virus guys. Yeah. So just woke up one day and have people who could. The numbers were incredible. How many people switched to Distributed work? But yeah, we've been distributed since the beginning. We're about 2,000 people in 92 countries. Majority of the company first language is not English. And we communicate primarily asynchronously through blogging. Now when you say blogging, you're referring to internal tools that resemble blogging? Yeah, we have this tool called P2, the letter P as in Penguin and the number two. And it's basically an internal blog. We have no email in the company. The only email I get is HR stuff. And everything happens. Usually I'm guessing not a good day. No, I work a lot with HR stuff. So that'll happen privately. But everything else and stuffs in an email, we'll just kind of blog to each other. And so everything has a permalink. Everything is archived. Everything is searchable. And you can have rich embeds like Figma embeds, YouTube embeds. Is that first embed? Figma? I don't know what that is. Figma is actually an awesome tool you should check out. Imagine a way to coordinate design online and in real time. So you and I could be working on the same wireframes or interaction design. And actually it's the latest episode of the distributed podcast. And I didn't actually interview the founder Dylan. Connie Inge did. Visual friend of ours. Oh, this is a designer.

Holstee daily reflection cards (14:16)

We owe Connie credit for another prop we have on the table. We may or may not use which are the Holstie H-O-L-S-T-E-E reflection cards. And there are a lot of decks of questions that I've seen out and about. And I've tried quite a few. My girlfriend loves these various decks. And there's the good, the bad, and the ugly. And I'd say mostly fairly mediocre. And this is a deck that is quite good. So we might get to some questions here. So Connie, you were saying, interviewed the founder of Figma on the distributed. Yeah, latest episode. It's a cool tool. I think you might enjoy checking it out actually. I will. Figma, I'm on it. And let's see, what else is such a lazy question, but it kind of boggled my mind to think that it's been five years since we last did one of these. Yeah. Because you said what the first episode we did was number 60 something.

The first Tim Ferriss Show episode (with Matt) and what's changed since (15:11)

61, 61 in the Bay Area at my kitchen table or dining room table, all the same in Glen Park. Back when you had your golden locks. I think that was when you still had your golden locks. And pretty long hair, yeah. I tried to change it up every year or two. Every once in a while. And at the time, the nectar of choice was tequila. And so that featured very heavily. More ways than one. Did you go in his home? Yeah, that was, um, yeah. That was a good go to. That was a good evening.

Tim has a hard time describing the eclipse experience. (15:43)

That was a good evening. So this morning, if we switch from evening to morning, so we had a very interesting morning and it started, well, I didn't really ever end, I guess. I mean, it was continuous. Most people didn't sleep. But what happened this morning? So part of the reason we're in Antarctica, besides the penguins, which I know you talked a lot about, was Sue. Check out that episode with Sue Flood is the total solar eclipse that happened here in Antarctica. And it's only one in the continent until 2039, I think. That's total solar eclipse. See you and I at the wee hours of the morning. Very wee. Very wee. Got to see what was my first visible total solar eclipse. Mine too. Incredible. The landscape in Antarctica is so dramatic. It's a place that really makes you feel. It's a very patient landscape and it makes you feel like your size in the cosmos. Interesting that you'd use the rotation. Why do you use that adjective? I was anticipating you might say vast or majestic, vast, even more so than majestic. But why, why patient? There's something to me about an artery that feels really timeless and also just unconcerned with human welfare and timescales. Things here happen over huge timescales and it's so cool to see mountains buried by glaciers essentially. They look like they have a blanket over them. And that was over how many tens or hundreds of thousands of years. It's pretty incredible. It is. And we were chatting with a gentleman yesterday. I don't know if he would want to be named to it. I won't name him. But he had mentioned how deep an impact, I guess his first full totality as it's known, first total solar eclipse had affected him and how he had always on some intellectual level understood our relative insignificance from a cosmic perspective. But the first time that he viscerally felt that, which actually was deeply therapeutic for him, was seeing a totality with his daughter and his arms and somebody behind him caught this amazing photograph of his daughter, a tiny little daughter pointing up at the totality as it's happening. I mean, you couldn't have scripted a better photograph. And then this morning, it still feels like it was two days ago. Everything blurs and blends together, which is, we've lived lifetimes. We've lived lifetimes. It was around what? 444, I want to say. And leading up to it in the days leading up to it, I was looking forward to it, but I wasn't jumping up and down with excitement. I just assumed, okay, it gets progressively darker, then it's dark, and then it gets progressively lighter. I'm not that blown away by this phenomenon. Yeah, cool story, bro. And that had to be there, had to be there. And it turns out you really do have to be there. And when it actually started creeping up and you're watching this happen and you're observing the progression through these eclipse glasses, because otherwise you'll blow your eyes out, of course, especially if something's magnified through equipment. And when it actually fully overlapped and you're able to take off your glasses and look at it directly, it was stunning. And the effects on the horizon and on the visibility of stars, the things happening around it, the shadow bands as people refer to them as, traveling across the ground. Did you see the wavy ones? I did. I was so surreal. Yeah. And just everything about it almost harken back for me to prehistoric humanoid times. Like it touched something very old, if that makes any sense. It felt like it touched something in species or racial memory going back thousands of years, where you can imagine the impact that this would have on any sentient being who's observing it and really paying attention and watching it difficult to put into words. That was the most common sentence, probably some variation of that that I heard afterwards. People were giddy, people were euphoric and the expression was, you just can't put it into words or I can't put it into words. And I encourage people to look up the history of eclipses. There's been some cool historical moments where predicting eclipse and opportunity eclipse or two kings died after seeing them. And then that was part of the creation of Europe. Yeah, King John the pious. King John the pious you're saying and then Europe was split up into what it said became France, what became Italy and what became Germany, that has three sons. So yeah, eclipses seem to figure pretty strongly into the shaping of history and the shaping of national borders. What's more reliable than the sun? Yeah. And for that to be plotted out for a moment is, yeah, all inspiring. Let's do it again. Yeah, I don't say this lightly. Once it happened though, I immediately turned to a few friends that were with and I said, I get it. I see why people chase this because we have people here in this camp because you have these shell tents arranged in rows of sorts and then they have snow piled around them to brace against the wind and it does get really, really fucking cold here.

How the Superhuman camp gets its water. (21:06)

Surprise, surprise. It's Antarctica. It's also very, very dry and people get a lot of sun damage even more so than the same as the driest desert in the world. It is dry. It is dry. It's part of the reason you can dry the surface of say your steak by putting it in a freezer on an elevated rack for a short period of time. It's the driest place in your house is a good freezer. I know that. So you just expand that a gazillion times. We're in a really good freezer over eons and here you are in Antarctica. It's also interesting that where we are on Union Glacier, there's no birds, no animals, no insects, literally nothing living except us. Yeah. I was going to say disturbingly, but it's not disturbingly. It is oddly quiet when you go to certain parts of the camp. If you're not within shouting distance or within hearing distance to the mess hall or something like that. And especially after we spent seven days with the penguins, which have kind of a constant din and it was really cute. They would walk into camp and just walk past your tent. The tents have no noise isolation. Or right up to the tent. Right up to the tent. And you're better than noises. That was pretty good. Thank you. Although that is actually the pairing call that you hear more at the colony, but they're just going Tim's been practicing this. I have been practicing much to the chagrin. Traveling companions. I've been doing that like 100 times a day. If you can cut in some of that field otter you took would be pretty cool. Oh, we will. Oh, there will be magic in the editing room. I have no idea if you'll be able to hear me or not. But those are the sounds of thousands of empire penguins, adults in their business formal. Black and white attire. The largest of the penguin species. So I would guess I'm no biologist, but probably let's just call it 2 and a half to maybe 3 and a half feet tall, probably 25 to 45, 25 to 50 pounds. And then there are chicks who have great downy feathers or certainly appear to. The adults have I think roughly 15 feathers per square centimeter. You're hearing many different calls. And I don't know the meaning. I assume there certainly are meanings of the different calls, but they're saying. Which they make when they point their beaks basically straight down flat against their chests. So I imagine that straightening their trick is somehow, but it's the opposite of what you'd see with say a coyote or a wolf howling. And here I am. Holy shit.

Side Hustle Script" Commercial (24:28)

Antartica. So Matt, where should we go next? What do you think? You want to know if you want to pull out the deck? See what happens? Should we go somewhere else? Are there other things in the last five years? Maybe we'll roll into that. I mean, five years. It seems like so recently that we recorded our other episodes. And it's not that recent. I mean, it's not. It's like if you live 80, let's just say we live 80, 85 years. It's like five years is a meaningful percentage of that. It's true. Man. It makes me think of that essay. The great one from Tim Urban. The tail end. Yeah. Which you introduced me to and I have shared with so many people put an edited or I don't think it was highly edited, but like a slightly shortened version in, I think it was tools of Titans because I had such an impact on me. And that's all thanks to Mr. Mullen. Yeah, that was one of the big things since our last episode was my father passing. Yeah. You were a great friend through all that. So thank you. But that taught me a lot about that. Grief and the femurality of life and everything. So that was a big one. Yeah. Pretty much everything in my life has changed a lot in the past five years. We hadn't even acquired WooCommerce when we last spoke. Then this year it's going to do what's the number that we say, but I think 21 billion of transactions. We're hoping to do for eCommerce, what we did for websites.

debrief on five years since recording (25:44)

And I think there's a chance in the web wants an open source thing out there for commerce. So I think what's been exciting for me is everything is always changing. I'm not good at staying still. Everything is always changing, not in a macro world sense. So I guess that's true. You're saying for you personally. Yeah. You asked me the other day, do I have like a weekly routine where like Mondays or staff meetings, Tuesdays or stuff. Yeah. You have an infrastructure for your week because people like Jack Dorsey have talked about this. I don't know if he does it any longer, but I did ask you. And your answer was? Every day is different. And that's part of what keeps it super exciting for me, because I feel like I'm always learning. You know, nothing about podcasting software or journaling software or eCommerce software or anything. But I love making tools that people use. It's very, very satisfying. If you don't mind, let's just come back for a second to your dad's passing.

Dealing With Grief & Wealth Management

Wyatts recommendations for dealing with or processing grief etc. (26:41)

And I know that was an understandably extremely tough period. And I don't even know if it's something you've ever fully metabolized. If that's something you even view in the past tense, it's like something you went through or if it's something that you continue to live with. But my question is, if there are any resources, tools, books, or just simply advice that you would give to someone who is experiencing grief or has lost someone or maybe is on the cusp of losing someone. Yeah. The book that I found most helpful during that was co-author by Elizabeth Kubler-Ross. It came up with the Kubler-Ross scale. I think that's the five stages denial, anger, acceptance of the five stages of grief. The book was called, I think, "Grief and Grieving." Yeah, "On Grief and Grieving." On Grief and Grieving. That one was really powerful. Might be just grief and grieving. I shouldn't be so definitive, but yeah, one of the two. Yeah. So that one was very, very helpful for me. But one of the things I learned was how personal the process is and how different it is. For example, for me and my sister, grieved completely differently. And I've seen other friends go through this since then. And so I would say one thing I really learned is just that everyone has their own way of processing and it'll happen at different times. And it's very easy to get annoyed or mad or angry or disappointed at how someone else is grieving, if it's different from yours. How did the book help you? What did it explain or help you to accept or clarify or otherwise? I had heard of those five stages, but I thought they happened serially. Like you went in order. That's what I would assume. And it turns out you can have them out of order and multiple ones at the same time. And in the same day, in the same hour. And so that was really helpful. Pre-grieving was something I learned a lot from the book. It's the idea that if you have a sense that someone's going to pass, there's actually a whole grieving process that happens before then. And my father was in the hospital for about five weeks. So that was one of the most intense periods of my life. And that pre-grieving, I hadn't really understood. Those are some big ones. Yeah. And it's been helpful as well. I think especially in American culture, we don't talk about death. Yeah. We don't think about it. We like to pretend it doesn't happen, but it's the one thing that for certain is going to happen to every single one of us. And we're all going to lose someone we love and we'll all pass someday. And very much like the Stoics. I think that the more you think about it, the better you are able to handle it yourself and help others when they're going through it. I have an app for my phone. I think it's what is it? Bhutanese. It's called microke. Or weakroke. Weakroke. Yeah. I've used weakroke.

Lever and Subscriptions Commercial (29:28)

And five times a day, it just sends you a notification. It's like, just remind her we're all going to die. Gives you a quote. And then it gives you a quote that you can open up. That one's been, yeah, I've kept that going. I also, I think we might have talked about this before, but on my Chrome new tab, I sort of calculated the average number of days I'm probably going to live. So every time I open a new tab has that countdown. That's something you did manually or is that something other people can do reasonably easily? Yeah. Use a tab thing called Momentum, which allows you to customize your new tab screen. And it can do countdowns. And so I think the dates was something like 2060, 2000, January 11th, I picked my birthday. And then it just counts down. And so that's also really interesting.

Selectively blind (30:13)

And I find also a good interrupt to remind me when I'm starting a new tab, which is usually the beginning of distraction or something. Yeah, totally. Yeah, totally. That it just has moments of more and the countdown. Do you find that you begin to tune that out? So I've used Momentum, I like it a lot. But do you end up at some point becoming immune to the reminder? Have you experienced that or not so much? Is there anything you do to prevent that? Yeah, I've definitely developed like a selective blindness to it. I was actually just thinking today, like if I just used every app on my own screen regularly, my life would probably be much better. Now I've got column and fit bot and all these sorts of things that I put on, like smart mats, thoughtful mats. Smart mat. Put that on the home screen. I'm thinking of you as a Twitter. Yeah. But I'll still scroll the four screens over to get to Twitter, Instagram or something. Oh, yeah, it's hard to win that one outgunned as we are. I actually deleted all apps from my phone. Excuse me, that would not make any sense. I would make my phone very hard to use. I deleted all social apps from my phone about a year and a half ago. And haven't installed, haven't re-installed any of them. And it's been liberating in some ways and also frustrating in others to see how addictive these tools are and how I will find workarounds. But I use the browser. Yeah, the browser. Yeah. Right. And it provides a hurdle, right? So it's like the candy isn't within reach. Like I have to like open a door and walk through it to another room, metaphorically speaking to get the candy, but still I end up, as you've seen on this trip with the chocolate covered almonds. It's amazing how much chocolate covered almonds Tim has consumed. So horrifying. So horrifying. But it could remind a raw human. Even like four-hour body Tim pairs. Definitely even for us, especially for our body Tim pairs. Uh oh, once he goes off the rails, it's very, very off the rails. Oh man. So anything else that you'd like to add within the context of the last five years? And one more thing on the parents is one thing I wish is that had more recordings, my dad. Just remembering his voice or even some video though, people more self-conscious about video. So I think it's great if there's people you love. Do something like this. Have a conversation with them. Yeah. Cored it.

Family Time (32:42)

I think it's something you'll both probably appreciate. Well, you've been part of the big part of the impetus for me to set time aside and schedule time to do this with my parents. We had it scheduled and then there were some calendar and travel issues, of course with COVID and everything else going on. But that is something that I'm planning on doing in the next few months. And I'm looking forward to it. I think they're at different points. I've had various reservations, but as I think more and more about kids, I think it becomes, it dawns on me more and more clearly how valuable or how treasured that could be at some point to have that. Yeah. And just what our parents or loved ones might remember about our life is so different. Sometimes what we remember and could be really enlightening sometimes. Yeah. Because memory is so fallible, right? Yeah, super fallible. So it's interesting to see the different perspectives on it and triangulate. Maybe how we turned out the way we did or things that might have been very influential on us.

StoryCorps (33:43)

So question for you then, any recommendations for my conversations with my parents? Are there any particular types of questions that you would ask or angles of inquiry or anything at all? No fly zones? Anything that comes to mind? You know, this is where being offline is going to get us. What's the project? It's like on NPR where they interview people as an app for its story core. Story core. Story and then C-O-R-P-S. And I think they even have an app with questions. And part of what they do is try to get an oral history of Americans, people around the country, maybe around the world. I don't know anything about this. But people can record their own and they have a really great set of questions that kind of walk people through their life history. So I would say those would be the experts and check it out. Maybe some things that could be a good framework. I will. And for what it's worth, since we're talking about recording, we can just mention briefly what I have right here in front of us, which is the sophisticated grand podcasting studio of Tim Ferriss Enterprises, which is very, very, very simple. It turns out there have only been a few minor changes since our recording five years ago. And the first recording being number 61 of the podcast. Now we have whatever it is close to 600 episodes. So we've got the Zoom H6 recorder in front of me. And then we have two XLR cables, one going to handheld mic for Matt, another going to handheld mic in my hand. One of the upgrades that I made is when I do in-person recording, I have two different colored, the default is going to be black cabling. I get colored cables. So for video, this would be horrible on the eyes. But practically for recording, it's great because it makes it very easy for me to see which levels I need to adjust. Oh, cool. That's why the cables are different colors. So we have yellow and orange. And then I have rechargeable batteries, which are Panasonic rechargeable. BQCC55 is going to probably take you to the proper make and model. And then we have an iPhone with a sure MV88 microphone that attaches to the iPhone through a lightning port. And captures really good audio. So we have that running as backup. And then the handheld mics are also sure. And I usually use SM58 mics. These are slightly better for voice. And if I could just see yours for a second, this is the KSM8. And they're very nice. Worked really, really well. And that's it. And this all fits into a small bag. I can tell you, well, there's a small bag, but it all fits into a Banya hat. I have a Russian sauna hat that is perfect padding and insulation for the recorder itself. Then everything else fits easily, easily, easily into a backpack. You could probably fit most of it into a big jacket. And you can record anywhere. You've now recorded to an Antarctica, which is amazing. It is kind of amazing. And so we've had 200 plus degrees Fahrenheit with Rick Rubin, the incredible music producer, although he does a lot more in his sauna because that was a condition for doing the interview. That's super hot. It was so hot and hilariously so because we ended up having to take breaks and do ice baths. And the mics got so hot. That was the one thing we didn't budget for. I was so worried about the recorder being damaged or going non-functional that I didn't pay attention to the simple fact that when you have the mic at body height in the sauna, it's going to get ripping hot. So the equivalent was fine on the floor, but the mics got so hot we had to wrap them in towels and do it that way. So we've done like plus 200 degrees and with windshield probably at... I think it was saying it was negative 35. Negative 35. Yeah, negative 35, maybe even a little bit colder. Negative 35, maybe a little bit colder at Gold Bay with zoo because we were outside. Oh, yeah, right. We have a bit of shelter here, but there we had an open-sided tent with wind ripping through and a table made of ice instead of this nice fold-out table. Why didn't you close the door with a tent? It was a lounge that had been created by the staff and one was like up over the top. And I suppose we could have closed it, but we were all wrapped up and reasonably cozy. I took a picture of you all off the shirt. That's right. Yes, we have a good photo.

Wealthfront (38:31)

Just a quick thanks to one of our sponsors and we'll be right back to the show. This episode is brought to you by Wealthfront. Did you know if you missed 10 of the best performing days after the 2008 crisis, you would have missed out on 50% of your returns. Don't miss out on the best days in the market. Stay invested in a long-term automated investment portfolio. Wealthfront pioneered the automated investing movement, sometimes referred to as Robo-Advisor, and they currently oversee $20 billion of assets for their clients. Wealthfront can help you diversify your portfolio, minimize fees, and lower your taxes. Takes about three minutes to sign up, and then Wealthfront will build you a globally diversified portfolio of ETFs based on your risk appetite and manage it for you at an incredibly low cost. Wealthfront's software constantly monitors your portfolio day in and day out, so you don't have to. They look for opportunities to rebalance and tax loss harvests to lower the amount of taxes you pay on your investment gains. Their newest service is called Autopilot, and it can monitor any checking account for excess cash to move into savings or an investment account. They've really thought of a ton. They've checked a lot of boxes. Smart investing should not feel like a roller coaster ride. Let the professionals do the work for you. Go to wealthfront.com/tim and open a Wealthfront investment account today, and you'll get your first $5,000 managed for free for life. That's wealthfront.com/tim. Wealthfront will automate your investments for the long term, and you can get started today at wealthfront.com/tim. Would you mind opening the non-P bottles so I can have some of the water? I'm pleased that they have the color coding, and I'm going to open this deck. I've come a long way from Casa Dragoes. Cheers, by the way. Yeah, cheers. Let me do that with the booze. How much would you give me to drink a swig of that urine right now? What would you trade? I like you too much, Tim. I wouldn't do that, dude. I have actually... I don't know how this came about, but I ended up... This is only for you, my final listeners. No such thing as TMI. I'm at some point... I don't know what it was. Can't filter him without TMI. That was good. That was good. Let me take a break from the P bottle. I'm going to come back to drinking my own urine story. That is the master of what is known in Japanese as "Oyachi-giaagu."

Thoughts On Human Nature & Health

MLM = urophagia (40:59)

Oyachi-giaagu. Okay, so... Oyachi is like... Pops. It's like saying "dad" but in a really informal way. And then "giaagu" is "gag." And as it turns out, cross-culturally, dads love puns and words like... So like if a shitty pun comes up and often did in my host family when I was 15 in Japan, then the host brother would be like, "Oyachi-giaagu-giaagu-giaagu." And... Matt is the master. So yeah, you can't spell Tim without TMI. That is actually very, very good. That's very, very good. I did take in that same apartment in San Francisco... I remember at one point just deciding, "You know what? I think I should sample my own urine, for what reason I can't recall." And I did. And you've seen how much water I consume, so it was actually totally fun. It was totally fun. It wasn't over saturated with B vitamins or anything. That will affect the taste I suspect. Nothing I've had many samplings. But I will say, I don't make a regular practice drinking my urine, or do I recommend it? This is not medical advice. It's actually pretty stupid as a story to begin with. But you did it so others don't have to. I did it so others don't have to. Yeah, it wasn't the most delicious thing I've ever had. All right. So let me offer you... You want me to choose a card or do you want to choose a card? All right, go for it. All right. So let's see. And you can always refuse... Would you say your recordings in Antarctica have been intense? Intense. Is that another pun? Oh, intense! Oh my God, that was so bad. Sorry, I apologize. That was good. That was good. You can't have out of thousand. Intense, you know? True fact. As my friend Kelly Starhead likes to say. True fact. True fact, in Paris. Here's one. What is one fear you would like to conquer? You're going to answer the same one? I can or you could choose another one. Yeah. I think that'd be fun if we both answer it. Yeah, let's do it. Because maybe we'll inspire a different way of thinking about it in each other. Great. You know, I have a hang up around body issues. And exercise and stuff. And it kind of got bigger in like the past six months. And as I'm 37 now, not there. Old man, young age. Old, we first heard Mullenweg. And yeah, I think that's a fear I like to conquer because it's totally irrational.

Inherent fears and hesitations (43:34)

What is the fear exactly? I don't know how to articulate it, but there's something where I don't know how to articulate it because it's a fear. It's not rational. It's not something I can put into words. Well, I mean, there are a lot of fears that are rational, right? So just because it's a fear doesn't automatically make it irrational. I think this is probably irrational. Yeah, it's something around. It's like an insecurity. I'm not going to let you go. So is it an insecurity around appearance? I think it's something. Yeah, something about, I'm sorry. I don't know how to go deeper. We can, this is where I should do some heavy lifting or help do some heavy lifting. What would be an example of a time when it shows up for you? The resistance, I feel around sort of exercise that's been growing, I would say, where it's, it shows up like a fear in that I can think of so many excuses. Why? Including like, I'm going to injure myself again or I'm going to hurt my knee or my wrist are bad right now, so I shouldn't be doing this or like things like that. But which really just add up to be a bunch of excuses. What do you think that is protecting you from? Like if you did not have, because it seems like you're a smart guy. So it's probably some part of you not to like go too far into like IFS, Dick Schwartz type stuff, but like your subconscious trying to protect you from something. Potentially. What does it protect you from? What do you think it is? I don't know. I mean, it could be injury. It could be performing below your expectations, perhaps like if you exercise that you're not going to meet some standard you've saved for yourself in your mind. I have no idea. So it sounds like it's a hesitancy that you can't fully explain. Therefore, it's kind of falling into the category of fear for you. Yeah.

The baseline toll (45:37)

Okay. How about for you? What's a fear you would like to overcome? Man, how much time do we have? I don't. I think that's a bit of an overstatement, but I mean, shit, if we're drinking our single malt and really going for it, I would say the fear that I am just hardwired and also just software coded through DNA to be depressed and unhappy. And that that is a baseline I cannot escape. Like there's the gravitational pull to out of the box settings is so strong that no matter what I do, no matter how many morning routines I tweak, no matter how much I exercise, no matter how much I program meticulously different areas of my life, the regression to the mean is always going to be to a place of depression or this is a strong word, but like self-loathing, something that is not quite self-loathing at a 10 out of 10 intensity, but like a discontent and disappointment with myself. That's actually that locked in something about our mind, which is like a fear of being bigger. Bigger. Yeah, my family's bigger. Bigger meaning. Like a beast. Yeah. Like I have some prebuilt settings, the proclivity towards that. Yeah. Hmm. Do you believe that? Got you. Do I become that or? Depends on the day, depends on whether I've had a good stretch or a bad stretch or an average stretch. I mean, even if it is diluting myself, I want to believe that it is something I can overcome. I don't see how the alternative plays out is terrifying to me. If I truly, truly believe that 100% of the time, the consequences of that are like staggeringly scary. So I don't want to believe that, but if I were a scientist just looking at the data set, I'd be like, yeah, like if we're rating days like negative two, negative one, zero, plus one, plus two, somewhat like Jim Collins does. If people want more on that, you can just listen to the first conversation I had with him. But I would say I probably average out negative one. Hmm. Just on emotional tone, the gestalt of the day being sort of positive energy. And have you measured it? Not in that way. Not interesting to do. Not in that way. Some day around it. I should do it also because I do think, and my girlfriend has certainly pointed this out, and I recognize it is true that I have a negative selection bias. I think a lot of humans have negative selection bias, because you get rewarded by overreacting two threats. What's the stat you feel a dollar you lose seven times more than a dollar you gain or keep? Yeah. I mean, they've done studies around this. Yeah.

Ament about your health timeline (48:41)

Like how hard would you work to make $100 versus how hard would you work to avoid having like $100 stolen or taken from you? Yeah. So that is one of my macro fears tied to that would be a fear. I don't know if people can hear that because there's no, there are no birds. There's no insects. The footsteps on the snow are like definitely loud. The foot traffic is so loud. We should make it even harder to sleep around here. Or was I going? Or was I a macro fear that's related? Yeah. That is related is that I will never have enough energy. So, and I think some of that ties back to undiagnosed lime when I was a kid, which has been verified because I then later had confirmed lime. And I grew up on Long Island where it's very, very, very common. And when I was properly diagnosed after very severe symptoms, the second time, which was, I don't know, 2012 or 13 or 14, when they did the Elisa, I think it's the Elisa blot test and other testing, they gave me my results. And the first thing they said was, well, you realize that you've had Lyme disease before, right? Wow. Because I was showing, I guess, the long-term antibodies, like the serologic testing. I might not be getting the details, right? But suffice to say, I had already had Lyme, but it had gone undiagnosed, which meant it was untreated for a long, long time. So, I don't know how much to attribute to that versus a family history of depression versus other things, but I've always struggled with energy levels. So, that was like the currency in which I am poorest. He, and it doesn't matter how much time you have tension or otherwise. Like if you don't have just the battery to execute, you are. So, people who listen to your podcast would guess that about you. I don't think so because they're getting 1% of my time, not 1%, but it's like, I don't spend all of my time recording conversations, right? So, they get to hear me when I'm having fun, usually, right? I enjoy the podcast. It is very deeply nourishing to me, and when it starts to feel anything other than that, I change something, right? Like, I decrease the frequency. And like, I could do it three times, four times, five times a week, but it would start to feel like a burden or a chore, and I don't want that to be the case. So, I don't think most people would guess that.

Are humans inherently self-destructive? (51:11)

You know, you did share with me. I don't know if you're willing to share here or want to share here, that you got a lot of comfort from a revelation. Oh, is this the existential piece? Yeah. Yeah, I'm willing to share. This is a weird one. So, this is kind of ties into another fear, which is, I don't know if it's a fear. I mean, it's a belief, the consequences of which are really unpleasant. Although, I've started to look at it in a slightly different way, and I'll back into it by saying, like, I think meaninglessness can be terrifying, but in a way, it can also be liberating because it frees you to kind of do whatever you choose to pursue. And over the last year, we've been talking about this on this trip. We agree on a lot of things. One, not trivial, very non-trivial thing that I think we have different opinions on is just, like, inherent human nature. And I have a, I don't want to call it dystopian, but I tend to think we are closer to chimps than not, right? Like, like 1% or anything. Or Hobsean. You know? Exactly. Yeah. Nasty brutish short. Nah, nasty brutish short, right? Hobsean is the right way to put it. And I want a little more pink-er-esque, you know, better angels over in nature. Yeah, exactly. So, in as such, I have been involved in a bunch of things over the last handful of years, including psychedelic therapeutics, especially on the nonprofit research side. I haven't done any for-profit investments myself. And you've been a huge supporter of that world as well. So, thanks for that. Thank you. It's a big deal. And then also with different conservation work in the Amazon and North America and so on, and have just run into what I view as this kind of, I know one can argue against it, but like, almost for me, like an irrefutable truth, just based on overwhelming evidence that I've faced over and over again that like, humans cannot resist pissing in the pool. Like, they can't help themselves. Like, they're so competitive and driven by incentives, which of course, all animals are. And it has been, for me, I have- I'll make it active, right? Like, I have depressed myself and upset myself. So, I'll make it transitive here, right? So, that I have some agency. I have some agency to repeatedly run into what I view as like, unavoidable self-destructive tendencies, which on smaller scales aren't necessarily self-destructive, but at larger scales with billions and billions of people become just untenable. I was just like, what's the point? I found it very difficult to get up and muster any kind of enthusiasm or motivation to like, knock out these email about various, just like, bullshit items that might be very interesting, but I'm like, okay, I'm gonna like invest in some like, whatever the fuck app that does something that really isn't making a dent and like, what's the point of all this? Because like, ultimately, we're all like, just careening towards this incineration that I don't see is particularly avoidable. And then I was reading this book, which does punch the four hour working in the balls a little bit, which I found kind of funny, honestly. So, it does make a reference to the four hour work week and not in terribly kind way, which is fine, because what do you expect if you title a book the four hour work week? But the book also has a four in the title, but it's called 4,000 Weeks. That refers to the average lifespan of humans. And there's actually a lot of great exploration in this book, looking at the frailty and the fallacies of time management and productivity and a kind of to-do list obsession and optimization of different types. And one of the chapters, I think is called something like cosmic insignificance therapy, which I think this morning was a great example of, where you actually find it liberating to realize how much it doesn't matter. So you end up finding it kind of inspiring and freeing instead of debilitating and crushing, which is, I find hard to do because I tilt towards the darkness. And so the realization was like, well, okay, look, even if people are just hell bent on self-destruction and we had that way, at the end of the day, our son is going to red giant white dwarf kablui and then the earth is gone. Anyway, all life on earth is gone at that point, or certainly as far as I know all life on earth. So even if we kill our own species and all sorts of other species off on this planet, the life per se of earth is finite regardless. And I was like, oh, actually, that brings some peace to me. Sunshine Tim. Yeah, I mean, god, this sounds so depressing. But like, this is kind of a lot of the shit that I think about in part because, and whereas this is supposed to be me asking you questions, we're going to get to another question, but it's like, I don't know if you've experienced it because like, you didn't grow up rich. I didn't grow up rich. And at least for me, in my group of friends and their families growing up, like lower middle class, it was like, if only we had money, our problems would be solved.

If only we had [fill in the blank] Our problems would be solved. (56:33)

Like here are these problems. If we just had money, it doesn't grow on trees and like, oh, that rich person, wouldn't that be nice? Everything is smooth as gravy over there. I am sure. And then you pursue your pursue your pursue and you can kind of push your issues to the side in pursuit of becoming quote unquote successful because the assumption underlying it is when I have X or Y or Z, whatever that amount is, then I'll be happy. Then I'll be happy. And then you like, then you like run through one of those finish lines and you're like, well, wait a fucking second, like this is a false bill of lading. That didn't work at all. And which, you know, by the way, when some people ask like, what would you change or emphasize if you wrote the for our work week again, it's the filling the void chapter, which is a chapter that people kind of skip over because it's not this like hyper practical tactical nuts and bolts chapter, but it's really important. So yeah, that's my very, very, very long rambling answer to the existential realization, which is like, oh yeah, this plan, it's got a finite lifespan anyway, as far as like organic life goes. So that's something I always find interesting is sometimes relief from what seems like existential problems that come from the most unusual places.

Life, Death, And Supernatural Beliefs

The importance of engaging with thinkers representing different ideas and values. (58:07)

And so I was surprised that this came for you, that that was a comforting thought. But I do, I do believe in the cosmic insignificance. It's very humbling to think like our time span, even all of human recorded history is just a speck of dust of the universe's time span. And one thing I really appreciate about you, Tim, is that you engage with work and thinkers that some people might assume are the opposite of you or advocate for different things. But it's all part of your growth and your journey and like, framing up things. So I like that you wouldn't write this book and how cool that it provided this relief for you, you know. Thanks, man. It's a solid book. And the way that I parsed it online was I put it on, I guess Twitter. And I said, for people who have read the such and such book, you know, 4,000 weeks, how much would you recommend it to a friend from one to 10, no seven allowed, which is something I learned from a person named Kyle Maynard, because it forces people to like pick a barely passing or pretty strong recommendation at eight. And the vast majority of recommendations or the vast majority of answers, and there could be a selection bias, obviously, right? People read the book in the first place. Yeah, exactly. Came back at like 9, 8, 9, 10, the vast majority, which was certainly enough to convince me to get it on Kindle and read a few chapters and end up liking it a lot. I mean, in just because I can't resist just a little jab. The author does use a lot of like $10 words where a 10 cent word would work. So I think I'm pretty well educated, but I still had to look some words up. It's okay. He apparently punched a four hour work. We even did punch back a little bit. He did punch four hour week in the nuts, but that's okay because you know, get in line. So how many years has it been since four hour work week? It's published in April of 2007. So 14 years. It's a teenager. It's a teenager. It's a student at college. It's starting high school. It's going to college. Yeah. Yeah. It's incredible. Let's try another card. Let's try another card. All right. So you want me to read this one first? God, it's more. No, that's a fierce one here. I'll let you choose. And let me just grab a few cards off the top. And again, for people interested, I don't even know if these are made anymore because I recall them being sold out or discontinued at some point.

If you could, what would you ask a crystal ball? (01:00:45)

Holsti H-O-L-S-T-E-E reflection cards. I got these on Amazon. The other's choice. There's choice. And what's the light and dark side mean? Is one a tougher question? Yes. The darker half of the card is intended to be a more difficult question. It's not always the case, but that's what it's intended to be. If a crystal ball could tell you the truth about your life, the world or anything else, what would you want to know? I think you should answer that first because I just finished a TED talk. What would I want to know? I'd want to know what is before life and after life. I have the same answer. Really? Yeah. That's the same answer. Yeah. It's one of those things I think is very difficult to truly know in this very difficult.

Book recommendations on what comes before and after life. (01:01:35)

It's something humanity's grappled with in a million different ways. Probably as long as we've been conscious. And yeah, curious about that. I need more, Matt. You got to do more than just whispered me about generalities. Wait, more about what's interesting about the afterlife or the free life? Yeah, either both end. I would say what is this is obviously a big one. But like, what do you, if you had to speculate, what do you think happens? I mean, if you want to go with pre-verse, we could do that. That's definitely an unusual way to approach it. Well, it's one. I think why I thought of that is because I've done meditations before, where they say like, feel what it was like before we were born. That's what it would be like after you're done. So like, meditation's on death. And so, yeah, in theory, there's something before, if there's something after, right? Yeah. I'm going to plug two books here. Plug one. Anika Harris. Oh, yeah. Consciousness. Yeah. This is for theories of consciousness. After our conversations on this trip, like that, it's absolutely on my to read list. Great book. And I think it kind of gets this question of pre-life and afterlife as well, because where does the consciousness come from? When does it start? Where does it go? How is it suspended? One where... Suspended? Oh, like there is. Yeah. It's such an interesting, what turns it on and off? Yeah. What does it even really mean? And this book is a fantastic kind of, and brief, so very dense, densely packed, or very valuable, and say, not longer there needs to be a book. And then David Eagleman, who... This is some. Yeah. So good. Have we talked about that? Was it? I... Maybe you recommended it to me? It might have been. I think I did one of your books, I recommend, thing. Ah, yes. Books I've loved. Yeah. And 40 Tales of Afterlives. And each one starts, basically, at the moment of death, and then it's kind of something that happens afterwards, and they're hilarious, and it's a great bedtime read. So I like to read... Short chapters, like three to two to five pages. Yeah. And it's nice to break it up nightly. And some of them, I've even read a loud difference. When you're a Burning Man, I did that as a gift, I would read one of these short stories to people. Some of my favorites are The Sentive Species. It's really great. And the opening one, some, is actually pretty fun. Can you give a teaser? So I think it'd be helpful to give people an example, since each of these short chapters is a hypothetical manifestation of the afterlife. So what might one be? So the opener, some, and I'll tell a little without giving away the amazing ending. You relive life, but serially. So all the things that you did at different points broken up in your life, you do all at the same time. So you shower for like 80 hours. You sleep for 30 years. You cut your nails for life. You're trying to remember a word for like two days. You're standing in line for 14 days. And so it kind of goes through this almost laundry list of it. Beautiful ending. It is a great book. It is an exceptional book. After the plugging these two books, what do you think? What happens? Or it doesn't happen? Unplug computer lights out. What's that? I'm looking forward to finding out someday. Not too soon. You said you had the same answer. Wait, which answer? Oh, I was the Christ of all. Yeah. Well, I just think it would help. I do think, and maybe I'd be open to a counter argument, but I do think it would just help you decide how to spend your time better in this particular iteration. If it's the one and only, thank you. Getting a little booze from a flask. Or a classic. And I mean, it would answer so many questions.

Does Matt have any supernatural beliefs? (01:05:39)

I think the interesting thing is, would humans truly be different? What do you mean by that? What day? How would they act differently if we had to defend a dancer? One, a lot of people think they do have a definitive answer. That's kind of the basis of many religions and things. So it's not unusual. And a lot of people, you could say that how would Anthony DeMello put it? They're not truly living. They need to wake up. They need to pay attention. And that's even though they might think there's this happening in the afterlife. Well, if you knew for sure, though, let's just say it's a hellfire in brimstone. That's one thing. Sends in the whole nine yards. Yeah, like the GDO Christian model. But then if you had, say, karma and you're like reincarnated as a hamster or a porpoise or a demi-god, depending on your behavior, then that would certainly, while you would think, would affect some choices. If you knew what happened afterwards, definitively, it would also affect how you viewed things. This is going to get dark, folks. Sorry. But things like suicide. So the Stoics didn't have a particularly negative view of suicide. But then once you get into the GDO Christian lens, it is most certainly negative. And that is one of many different things that would be clarified. If you knew, I mean, if you were just simply zeroing out a character, like ready player one, yeah, that's one thing. Insert coin. But with that made people less responsible with the lives they have right now, define responsible reckless, careless, because they thought they could just insert another coin and play again. Well, if they knew they could, then it wouldn't be reckless. I think that's an interesting area of thought. And it also reminds me of something I think which I hope expands a lot in the coming years is ethical, assisted euthanasia. Yeah. People end of life with waiting periods and all these sorts of things. I know Hawaii is a place where you can do it in a few different countries. Yeah, going back to some seeing people pass away, past five years, I understand why some people might choose to do that if they have a terminal illness illness or something. Yeah, interesting way had the same answer. And not altogether completely unsurprising. Oh boy, that's a good one. Can I tell you what I'd like it to be? What you would like your answer to be? Yeah, after life. Oh, well, you'd like the afterlife to be. Okay. I think it'd be kind of cool if our brains are like antennas to some deeper consciousness. And we reconnected with it sort of went back to that non-dual nature of enlightenment. You mean like a drop of the ocean returning to the ocean type of situation? Yeah.

What would Matt change if he knew hed die in one year? (01:08:30)

I find that comforting. Yeah, I did too. All right, here's one. We got one for you. If you knew that in one year you would die suddenly, would you change anything about the way you are living now? Why? I'm going to modify that question. If you knew that in one year you die suddenly, what would you change about the way you're living now? Why? Which is nicely related to our previous comments. What I would change. Well, what I did change after that tail end essay was spending more time with loved ones. If I knew I had one year, gosh, I've got so much left to do. You know, what's funny is let's assume it's perfect health for a year and then just lights up. Yeah. I think I would. This is kind of a funny answer. I wouldn't have thought of this before, but I'd write more. You'd write more. I did not see that coming. Tell me more. It brings up for me. Like, what's the legacy? How do I pass on the things I care about? Like democratizing, publishing in the web to the generations that are going to carry the torch share. And how much of what motivates me towards that lifelong mission around open source? I don't know if I've written about particularly well or articulated well that in a way that might inspire others. WordPress is open source has tens of thousands of contributors. So there are a good number of people involved, but I feel like for open source to truly win, we need millions of contributors. We need most of the world working on it because the alternative is proprietary, bad for humanity things. So yeah, I think I'd write and really try to write something that or write as much as possible things to bring more people contributing to open source. Tell me more. What else? If anything else? I think that's really because that's my life mission. It really is. And so if my life was ending, I think how do I keep that mission going? I'm so envious of you that that is so clear. I don't think most people could sit here. I can't and say X is my life mission. That's pretty fucking amazing. I mean, thank you. Well, I mean, it is just it just seems so I feel very lucky and liberating to have that defined that I want to say constraint, but not in a bad way, right? Like you've kind of defined the target in the bullseye in such a way that makes I would think it makes decision making like your decision fatigue must be less if that's clear. Does really help really helps clarify things. You know, that in the memento mori. Yeah, I do feel like I have memento mori being meditating on death in the finite nature of 14,000 days. Give or take a couple hundred left to try to move this, you know, mission forward as much as possible. And that's to death, right? That's not necessarily firing on all cylinders. Yeah, I feel like I'm going to keep working until I croak. Yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, sometimes it's really hard. And there's days and weeks and months where the job WordPress automatic, everything could be very, very challenging. And also, I'll keep it going. But I would say that it probably, I think you do have that, actually.

Why Pete bands he does! (01:11:54)

Me? Yeah. Oh, please pray. Tell, please, fill me in. Well, how do you spend your time? Oh, God, this is going to be doing things like this. Yeah. And why do you do it? Why do you share it? Why don't you keep all this amazing information for yourself? Because it's too, I mean, it sounds so self-aggrandizing. I mean, I just, I think it's too humanizing invaluable to keep private if it's so easy to make public. That gets nourishing to me. Number one. And I know how much conversations like this. I mean, if you and I were sitting here with no mics, bullshitting and drinking, glimmering, single malt scotch whiskey, we'd be having a similar conversation anyway. You know what I mean? We've had lots of these. We've had lots of these. Yeah. And the reason I started the podcast because I'd be having these conversations with friends, they would end and I'd be like, God, what a waste. Like it would be so, that conversation was so helpful to me. I have to imagine it would be helpful to other people. I think that drive to share, to learn and share, which I've seen the entire 10 plus years I've known you, it is a life mission. I can't imagine you ever stopping that. Yeah, I can either. Like you're going to be in an old person so I'll be like, I figured out this new way to like, move the wheelchair, like what would I could do? Like, this is like just something that so I think you do have that. And I think you should play with that to maybe are, you know, find what's words, resonate for you and describing that around that learning and sharing. Because I do think, do you think you'll do this the rest of your life? Some form of this, maybe not a podcast, but like, oh yeah, yeah, some form of this. I mean, I just, when people ask me like, how long do you think you'll do the podcast? I'm like, I can't, it's the first thing I've done this consistently over an extended period of time. And I can't think of a compelling reason for why I would stop, right? Which is another reason why even though I've had a bunch of conversations, I haven't seriously considered, I mean, you'll obviously support this, I think, doing anything that would put me in a walled garden. Because it's just, it's so kind of antithetical. If I were to sacrifice a large part of my reach or distribution, it just doesn't make sense, right? Like to have shackles on any form or fashion would like suck the soul out of what I'm doing. Which is not to say there couldn't be interesting collaborations with large platforms or companies, but to make any sacrifice on the creative side or the editorial freedom side or anything like that just wouldn't make any sense. And you would do it even if you made no money. Yeah. You would pay to do it. You do pay to do it. I do pay to do it. So this is something, something around that, I think, the interesting fear to find out. Because I can't imagine ever growing, stopping learning, and then not sharing it to whoever will listen. So you do that all democratized publishing in the web in commerce. And I think that'll be fun. Yeah. One year, one year is real short. It's a short period of time. You think about the last year, interminably long and also unbelievably short at the same time. Yeah. And I think for me, I don't know if she'd be game for this, but probably having kids with my girlfriend. Like just to at least, I mean, God, it's depressing to think about, but also incredible to think about. Just being there for the birth, like for a few months, and then Adios Amigo off I go. But to have that experience, I think that would be core to the next, to the remaining year. I remember, I don't know if he'd want his name mentioned, but a very famous scientist. And I were chatting at one point, and he mentioned having a kid pretty late in life. And his brother, the first thing his brother said to him was, congratulations and welcome to the human race. He was like, you're just, and you know, we chat about that quite a bit, but it just seems so on some level, I'm not saying it's required, but like fundamental to a lot of obviously human existence, right? And they're programming pointed towards procreation. Yeah, it's incredible how strong that drive is. Yeah, and it's like you talk to people who like they they have the most incredibly sophisticated rationalizations. And at the end of the day, it's like, you're just doing what your program to do. And maybe there's a beauty in that. Maybe there's a real beauty in kind of just fulfilling that. Like, yeah, you're a cutter at you carry fucking leaves around and you build shit in your gigantic, you know, and calling in like that's just what you do. And I have to imagine like, it feels good to them to do that, or at least it would feel bad for them not to do that. And it's interesting you bring that up because that's something that changed for me in the past five years. Yeah. Okay. Wow. If we're willing to go there, let's let's go there. After my father passed, I really decided I went down the path of like, okay, have a kid. Yeah. And I think part of that was just thing. Oh, I wish he had known a grandchildren, a grandchild or something. And part of that process was later deciding that that's not going to be how I leave an impact on the world. And so I decided to not have kids. Yeah. And made that a very explicit communication and everything like that, because WordPress and this other work I'm doing, I want to be the thing that I leave. And I don't feel like there's anything particularly good about my genetics that needs to be passed on, or that I would be a world unique parent. But I do think I'm one of the people in the world that does have a chance to shape the future of the web. And I just want to focus all of my energy into that. Where would you put, if you were a betting man, which of course you are, we're all betting people. We're all placing bets, like everything's probability, except for death and taxes, I guess. Maybe a few other things. Where would you put the likelihood that that changes? I think you had an answer in mind when you asked me that. I know this is not a leading question. I'm just curious. Yeah. And as a guy, we do have some more optionality. Around these things, you know, never say never. But that is, that is my working sort of software infirmer right now. Okay. So let's say 20% chance 20% chance. 20% chance. Maybe less. Maybe less than, I say 8% chance. Oh, wow, that's very precise. I like that. 8%. So next five years, child being born 8%. I fucking love that. 8%. That's going to be the headline of this podcast episode. Oh, wow. You want to try another one? Do you want to? Yeah. Let's see. Give it a go. Wow. This is actually a question you ask all the time, which is kind of funny. We won't do that one. No, that's funny. One message would you put on a billboard for thousands of people to see every day? I did not get it from the stack. But yes, that is a question that I do ask. Don't drink your piss because I said it on a podcast. That's what I would put on my board.

Achievements And Adventures

Two items on Petes bucket list he has checked off, a must read for WPT. (01:19:32)

Okay, here we go. What are two things still on your bucket list? God, you know, part of me, we had enough whiskey. I just want to mention all these. Like ridiculous sexual fantasies, but we're not going to get there. We need, we need, uh, it's just, just you and me and our few million of my best friends listening. Let's see. Two on the bucket list. I'm not going to count the kid because that's, you already discussed it. So I'm going to, I'm going to put that out of bounds. I might need some time to think about that, which is actually disturbing to me that I need time to think about it.

The Aurora Borealis and the bucket list (01:20:16)

Is anything immediately come to mind for you? Yeah. You know what, once it comes to mind, what's that? It could be a fun trip for us to do, actually, is the, um, Aurora Borealis. So actually, this comes full circle. You will like this. And I think I've told you this, but then I'm sorry that it was, of course, catalyzed by the passing of your father, but you recommend the tail end to me. And I'm with you during this, I mean, not with you, but we're in contact during this entire process. I read the tail end. I go, holy fucking shit. And by the way, everybody just look up at the tail end, Tim Urban and read it. Do yourself a favor. And so I made a commitment to take my family on a trip once a year. And we haven't done it in the last two years, but the, I think it was the first trip. My mom had always wanted to see the Aurora Borealis. I took my whole family to Iceland and went to the middle of nowhere in the middle of winter. It's dark all the times. It's the opposite of what we're experiencing right now. And we had the best luck ever. And we just saw the most incredible displays of the Aurora Borealis. And I have to say, much like what we experienced this morning, you cannot currently capture it at all on video or camera. It just, it doesn't bear any resemblance to the feeling and the experience of doing it in person. So I would definitely do that again. I was actually looking for it this morning because while the totality is happening, you can actually see stars when the sun is totally covered by the moon. And there's a different word for the southern Borealis, I think, or southern or, but yeah, there's a chance we could have seen it. I wonder what that's called, the Aurora Borealis, the Austral Borealis. I'm making it up words now. We don't have the internet. We're hobbles. That'd be one thing on the bucket list that reminds you of anything on your bucket list. There's so many things I would like to do. I would really like to, for instance, this isn't a discreet item on a bucket list, but get back into scuba diving. Like, yeah, scuba diving is one of my great loves. I haven't done it in so long. And it is really, truly, if you get to the point where you're reasonably comfortable and you can do wall dives and really kind of hover using your buoyancy, what's a wall dive? Or like a cliff dive. So you wear, where you, let's say you're swimming over coral that's, I'm just making this up 30 feet below the surface. Colors are still really vibrant at that depth. And then there's just a cliff. And you drop off of this cliff and you just go down this wall. So you're looking at, let's just call it a coral reef, but it's vertical instead of horizontal. And you look down and it's just into the abyss and see swim along a wall and you can drop down, go up and down looking at everything there is to see. And I often use scuba diving and it doesn't work for everyone, of course, but as a metaphor for psychedelic experiences, because in the beginning, like the first time you dive, the first one, two or three times you dive, you're just getting used to the equipment. You don't know necessarily reflexively how to grab your octopus or if you lose your respirator, how to deal with that, you're constantly checking your gauge, you're screwing with your BCD, I think it's a BCD buoyancy control device, yeah, BCD, where you're over inflating your vest and letting the air out. So you really don't have much control and you're discombobulated, but you might only notice a really large fish or a turtle or a shark or seen your peripheral vision, a school of fish, but you're really not seeing very much. And then as you get more comfortable, you see more and more, you notice more and more. And then you get to a point where, let's just say on a wild dive, it doesn't have to be a wild dive, but where you can control your buoyancy, you're just less at risk of smashing stuff at your feet, obviously, because you're looking down and it might be hundreds or thousands of feet. And you can just hover and look at like a square meter, right, like three by three feet, and it is an entire universe of life and activity. And you could spend an hour just looking at that tiny patch. That wonder, this is something I thought about this morning. I was like, I think it's really hard to go wrong if you chase. Chase might be too strong a word, but like pursue, wonder, and awe, you can probably overdo it and dull your senses and your appreciation of that. But I think there's a wonder deficiency in most lives, not that you should have it three times a week. What's the line about a universe and a grain of sand or something? Yeah. And so I think part of that is what is there to wonder that's all around us all the time. Yeah. In your backyard on a tree and like, yeah, it's one of those things that we sometimes get reminded of.

Albert and Chelsea detail the wonders of scuba diving (01:25:31)

Yeah. And I always, it always feels like the most obvious trait thing, but also the most profound and meaningful. And the scuba diving for me reinvigorates my powers of fixed attention, like my attention to detail. So when I, and I haven't gone scuba diving quite a long time, but when you're underwater and you're really noticing all the details, if you try to maintain that as you come out of the water, you still notice more. There's a transfer. I just love that floating. So for me, the buoyancy, I actually got certified with another one of your guests, Adam Bazzali. Oh, really? And Adam, at point one, if you breathe in, you lose a six-pack PhD. You discussed me, Adam. And a new father. I know. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful fellow. I'm just jealous of one P bar workout and incredible, you know, really engaged dad too. It's been so fun to see how much he's gotten out of that and given obviously, but it's anyway, not in trouble. So you got certified with Adam. Yeah. When you breathe in and you float up a little bit and you breathe out and you go down a little bit, when you can kind of control your buoyancy with like the air in your leons, that's so meditative. Yeah. And I've actually like gone to that space sometimes while meditating or sometimes in dreams. And I really, really appreciate it. But it also reminds me like, I wish we had like a Elon Musk of the ocean, like some like crazy, awesome billionaire who was like exploring the ocean as much as Bezos and Musk are going to space. Yeah, you know who's, I mean, the first name that comes to mind, controversial guy, but he's really good at getting shit done. James Cameron, I was going to say, but that's, that's all we got. That's what we need. We need two billionaires fighting. Yeah. And that will, we'll finally map the oceans and understand that. Yeah, I wonder who else is out there. There's got to be somebody else out there. Well, we'll do some recon and put it in the show. No, it's hopefully one of your listeners can, two of your listeners can start competing for conquering the ocean. I know there are a few of you billionaires out there listening to this right now.

The Other Way of Knowing Approach to Medicine (01:27:35)

So please take a look at our oceans. I would like to spend more time with, especially after doing work with the Amazon conservation team, which you've also contributed to, co-founded by Mark Plotkin, famous ethnobotanist, one of the proteges of Richard Evans Schulte's, out of Harvard. I would like to spend some more time, because I have spent some, but I would like to spend much more time with some of the indigenous groups. In this case in South America, I wouldn't have to be in South America because I have access before those ways die out. And I think it's somewhat, and again, this is maybe where you and I differ, but I think it's kind of inevitable. Like, I do think the March of so-called progress and the introduction of Western goods and consumerism and so on. Once you have sat phones and Wi-Fi and big screen TVs and so on, there's a tremendous amount of erosion that takes place. And I'm not implying or saying that I idolize the old ways. There's a lot of writing around the so-called noble savage. And like, oh, if we could all just revert to living in communities of 50 with the bare essentials, everything would be wonderful. And I don't agree with that. I don't think that's true. But there is a lot of medical knowledge and also knowledge of how to treat the whole person instead of just suppressed symptoms, especially not despite, but especially including what we would consider placebo effect. It's like harnessing the power of ritual and myth and narrative. Exactly. Two basically co-opt the power of the patient to help them heal themselves is dramatically underexplored by Western scientists in those communities. Not to say that would be my job because I'm not a Western scientist. I'm not a scientist, but certainly on my bucket list would be spending time with some of those groups. Because I do think, and this gets into some pretty strange territory, but there are other ways of knowing. Tell me more. Well, it's gonna give me a hard time. I'm gonna turn it around. Yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna let you get away with that. Yeah, yeah. There are, I do think there are other ways of knowing outside of things that are easy to put into a cube of a laboratory and test with placebo controlled randomized trials. I think it's easy to become dogmatic with scientism with a capital S in the same way that it is easy to become dogmatic with religion without truly having even a basic literacy or understanding of what we're talking about when one discusses science, which is a scientific method, a structured way of testing a hypothesis. That's all it is. The journey, not a end point. Yeah, exactly. So for instance, I mean, the scientific method itself is not good at generating hypotheses. It's good at testing hypotheses. And it's a framework for doing our best not to fool ourselves in a sense. But there are then observable phenomena, I'm fingering this pile of ginger shoes here. Why do I have a ginger shoe? It's gonna be terrible for audio. So don't take this as an indication of podcasting professionalism. But I am gonna have a ginger shoe because I love ginger. I'll have this after I ask my next question instead of while talking. But there is a book, I think it is actually called another way of knowing that just discusses it's a discussion, it's basically an anthropological exploration of a handful of tribes. I believe in Malaysia, so certainly not in South America in this instance. And phenomena that were repeatedly observed that seem to be very odd. For instance, when this particular anthropologist would head towards this village to visit, and he would be going by boat and then trail and so on and so forth, that there would always be someone waiting at a trailhead to meet him as if they were expecting him, but they had no prior notification that he was on his way. So what's happening here, right? Is it repeated coincidence? Sure, it could be, right? And like the self-avout hyper rationalists would be like, "Well, come on now." And then that would be the default. But I think it's perhaps helpful to ask what might other possibilities be. Let's generate a bunch of different hypotheses before we edit. What are a bunch of other, I don't even say plausible, they could be outrageous, but what are some other hypotheses, theories for how this might happen? And in these tight-knit groups, let's just call them tribes for simplicity, you see a lot of these behaviors that mimic some phenomena you see in the natural world of other species. So if you read, say, of wolves and men by Barry Lopez, he talks about wolves being tracked by scientists that head off in a specific direction, traveling in a straight line. And they intersect with a herd of caribou that started like 300 miles away. And they perfectly intersect at a given point where they're known to hunt. And it's like, "Okay, that's cool. What's happening?" Like, is it coincidence? Maybe. Sure, you can't roll that out.

A Friendly Lion (01:33:42)

It could be. And I think about, as I say this, I have some trepidation in saying it because there are people listening who'll be like, "Oh my god, that's so ridiculous." Or they might even say that's so unscientific. And what they mean by that is I can't provide definitive proof or some framework that provides perfect explanatory power. But as I was thinking about this morning, if you have, say, an eclipse, I was just thinking about thousands of years before this morning, eclipses were still happening. Humanoids have been around for a long time, right? If the crossing of the Bering Strait supposedly was whatever it was 20, 30, 40,000 years ago, I don't really know. You know, humanoids, even just in North and South American continents have been around for a long time and prior to that even longer. So they've been looking up and seeing these things. How would they have explained them thousands and thousands of years ago? Certainly not the way that we explained them today. Nonetheless, the eclipses were happening. It was kind of cool. We saw a little presentation from one of the people here on different cultures. And I think in China, it was a dragon eating the sun in Vietnam as a frog. There was different sort of myths and like every culture had a version of it. Yeah. Which was pretty cool. And I'll give another example. But how's that connected? No, I'm going to connect it. So what I mean is I think you can observe and record phenomena. And even in the absence of perfect explanatory power, some theory that holds up to modern scrutiny, just the fact that someone can't explain how something works doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That's what I'm trying to say. So for instance, while we were in lockdown during COVID, there was this video that went kind of viral of a coyote and a badger going out on a hunt together. And like the coyote would like trail out in front, because it wasn't trailing, it was leading in front, and then like stop and like wag its tail and looked like a dog playing with another dog, and then pulled the badger along. And that from a naturalist or field biological perspective, at least according to some people, shouldn't happen, right? Like that, that was always a myth. And in some of the the native, northern Native American traditions, they talked about the coyote and badger hunting together is talked about. But it was considered a myth. And then boom, now you have some video footage and it's like, ah, look at that.

The criticality of evolving beliefs and new discoveries (01:36:11)

Okay. So I do think that just because cultures have superstitions and beliefs that are not founded on hard evidence, and let's not fool ourselves, we still have a lot of that, even the most technologically advanced among us have plenty of those, that somehow a phenomenon can't exist. Right, if you don't have perfect explanatory background, this is kind of ridiculous. Like if you study the history of scientific discovery, you observe a lot of things far before you can. Radio waves, germs, radio waves, germs, I mean, like so many invisible things happening all around us all the time. Yeah, we look back like 20 years from whatever point in time, or let's say 50 years just to make it a little easier, 50 years before whatever point in time the discussion is taking place is like the dark ages, right? Like, oh my God, I can't believe we didn't know this. Oh my God, like how ridiculous that is in hindsight. This is a neglecting all the while, the fact that of course, if we were to be looking back at today, 50 years from now, as some doctors say, like half of what we know is wrong, we just don't know which half. Yeah, that's why I think it's so important to make space for people to update their views. I think it's so silly when we like get mad at someone, something I said 30 years ago, it's like, yeah, you're waffling. No, like when I get new information, I change my mind. What do you do? Yeah, and that'll be I'm sure this thing's on your early podcast. Maybe our last podcast I no longer agree with, but one of us said, and that's beautiful. Like in programming, we talk about like, if you're not embarrassed by your old code, you're not learning. You should feel bad when you look at your old code. If you think it's better than you can do now or great, that means you have them grown as a developer. So I think it's really important to always be evolving in that way. But what you brought up does make me think about how much communication is happening all around us all the time, that we don't understand, whether that's bird calls or what we heard with penguins, how they're able to connect with each other and identify each other. I just saw the documentary, Fantastic Fun Guy. Yeah, great stuff. Great stuff. Yeah, super fun. Yeah, Louie Schwartzberg. Yeah, and the mycelium networks, like there's so much communication that's happening all around us. And that's another thing that I think is so interesting to explore. Yeah, are we ever going to understand aliens if we can't understand dogs? Although I hear there's a startup around this that's trying to do like machine learning around dog birds. Oh, God, machine learning machine. Is it machine learning or deep learning? Yeah, there are all these terms, slap it on. When I was AI, you can raise more money. Yeah, AI, although I, you know, hey, if someone can help me, I'll send my second bucket list. Better than we'll do it. We want to do another question better communicate with Molly. I'm into it. So what else would be on my bucket list? I want, you know, it's such a simple thing. I want to get another dog. Oh, yeah, to, to accompany Molly and also to have some overlap so that I, I think if Molly passes away, it would be very hard for me to get another dog. Would you clone Molly? No. You want to share anything about cloning? I might know something about cloning. You can clone cats, dogs, and horses now in America. Well, let's get more specific. I think the company is called Viogen. And, uh, and yeah, you can pay and they will take a skin sample from the living animal. And they make an embryo from it and embed it in a circuit. And do you know anything about this? No comment. No comment. All right. Well, although the audience draw from that, what they may, I would not clone Molly. I think the uncanny valley. I don't think I would do that for myself. No, I wouldn't try to do like Molly 2.0. I think I'd feel very ethically conflicted about that. It's like emotionally conflicted too. So I don't think I would do that. But I would get a like mini me to play with Molly who then cares on the torch. I would definitely do that. Yeah. It was that I was party to this, but the person who, who wanted to do the cloning, I was very, very surprised. You were surprised. I was incredibly surprised that this person wanted to do it. Why are you surprised? The religious backgrounds. She's Catholic. Are Catholics against cloning? You know, I don't know for sure, but it seems should be on that list. I don't know. I guess if it's getting so okay, huh? Yeah. And, um, I was surprised, but it's been, I now have met this clone, the first of the clones. Like a congressional hearing. I love your wording. And I've met said clone. Mr. Senator. A beautiful thing about it is that the previous dog who's passed had had some, was a rescue and had had like a difficult early life. And so even though I knew this dog for, you know, 15 years, she would always be pretty skittish with me or any man in the room, which is just so heartbreaking to think like what happened to her when she was younger. And this new dog with the same genetic material, the genetic twin, is so excited to see me. It's like a six sigma excitement event. When I, when I return, when I walk through the door and it's kind of amazing. So yeah, but, but completely different. So I would say that it's not, it's just like a twin, a genetic twin coloring will be different personality is totally different. I think really shows you nature versus nurture as well. Oh, that's for sure. Which I think for dogs can be huge. Although you know, way more about dogs. And I've spent so much time training, Molly. And another reason I would like to have another dog is that she'll help train the other dog. Yeah, they'll pass on good and bad behavior, right? Yeah, she doesn't have too many bad hair issues, few, but not too many. And for people who want to look at the communication side, you can Google, I think there's a radio lab episode on the, the wood wide web, as they call it, which talks about inter, I think it's inter, I always mix up inter and intra, but inter tree communication. Oh, yeah. And trees will privilege ones that are closely related to a prodigy. Yeah. And as they're going to die, they'll basically like drop the resources into the root system and distribute to direct descendants. Pretty cool. It's so wild. And the reciprocal relationship with the fungal networks is just just incredible. So, you can look at that.

Beliefs And Discoveries

Operating on babies without anesthesia... within the last 100 years (01:42:41)

Let's not forget also, it wasn't that long ago. I don't know the exact dates, but I think it's within the last 100 years that doctors or surgeons would operate on infants without anesthesia. Wow. It's not that long ago, I might be getting it slightly off, but our assumptions about consciousness and communication and perception have been so consistently off that I think it's fair to assume that we're still pretty off a lot to learn. Yeah. I think my second book, I mean, honestly, this trip has been a bucket list. I don't, the emperor penguins, we were going to hopefully see the totality over them, but it was too cloudy. So that's why we came to this uniglayser camp, seeing the totality. And so I'll put a travel thing as the second one, which is I love to go to Egypt with my sister. Why Egypt? She wants to go.

Matts sister, Egypt, and weird words (01:43:33)

And I think it'd be pretty incredible. So, here's a bucket list for me. It's taking me a bunch of my closest friends to Japan. That's a huge snow cap in the background. Is it showing up on the levels? It's showing up on the levels. So that it would be the Tucker 5, which the staff used to refer to because it was the largest Tucker snow cap that had ever been custom built. And they would refer to it as the on radio. They would refer to it as the mother tucker, but then that got, that was not PC apparently. So it got vetoed at some point. Now it's the Tucker 5. I'm boring. I prefer the mother tucker. That might be part of this podcast episode title as well.

Curse words (01:44:15)

Well, just funny because you always make fun of me for not cursing. I do. I do. Yeah, Matt does not curse. Why don't you curse? Don't give me that. I have so many devices I needed to get written on. You always use that. You know, we don't have the internet, so I can't remember. But I think the English language has more words than any other language. I have a lot of words. And I just love finding that really great word to match things. Except for curse words. Except for curse words. Why not? Is that a religious thing? I actually, I had a one of the first WordPress blogs actually was a private blog. Myself and four friends had at a high school. And I was looking back at an entry from like 99 or something. And it had a curse word in it. From you from me. Oh, what curse break? I don't remember which one. Oh, it's this nor can I say it. Or should I? Or should. But I was so shocked because I don't know get you there. I think I've forgotten when I stopped. But I think it was influenced by reading someone or something around just its breastanalysis of the English language, finding the right word for things. And other ways, I don't exclaim much. You don't have a very ejaculatory style to your speaking. What do you mean you don't exclaim much? What does that even mean? Gosh darn it. Or you know, those fighting words. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, don't explain much. Someone else on the trip who exclaims a lot, not me. Like an exclamation would be like, if I stubbed my toe or something, like I'm not going to. So what do you say when you stub your toe? You just bite your, you just grin, like bite your tongue and I probably just make a noise, like a yelp. So if someone like cuts you off in traffic, I guess, I mean, you may be so zoned that you just don't get annoyed. But if you get annoyed, do you say anything? I like to tell myself that they are doing something urgent or have something in their life that like, you know, they really need to get that spot. When does when does Mac get upset? What are some matte triggers? Besides people spelling wordpress with lyric is P. You know, I'm not zen at all. I get upset on behalf of others. Oh yeah, I've seen this. You've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. And so more likely to be probably to like a fault, like overly protective sometimes. And the person themselves might not be mad, but I'll like get mad on their behalf in justice. Yeah, really bugs mean. So what's your response then? So most people like God fucking damn it. They, most people would curse to let some steam out. What do you do? Oh, good even Oh, this soft spoken weapon of incredible menace. You got to be careful with them all in Weg or the Mullen Berg is one of the staff here for do-me-me. We did our drug test earlier. What do you do? It's better than mullet wig, which I used to get in school. Your mullet wig or Adam Kazale calls you mullet legs. Mullet legs. Yeah, it's another good one. Sometimes I get Mullen web, which I actually kind of like. Oh, that's good. It's a web in there. Mullen web. I like that. Okay, we'll come back to the get even part another time. Let's see. This is just the one that I pulled out. Say we do maybe one more because my bladder is about to explode, but my fucking P bottle is full. That's like I know where to put it. Oh, I guess I could try to pee into the scotch whiskey bottle that we've now. Sorry, Glenn Marangi. I know my God, it's like the worst gank pronunciation of that ever, but if I have to pee in your bottle, I apologize in advance. Do intentions matter more or less than actions?

Do intentions matter more than actions? (01:47:59)

Hmm. Yeah, what's the legal word for this means ray or something? Oh, I don't know. Yes, I think they do. Intensions matter more. All right. Tell me more Met Mullen web. Do intentions matter more? What I like about intentions is the intentionality. It's a choosing. It's the the liberalness of a decision to do something. And I think that's super important for us to do. Maybe that sounded a little abstract. What you choose to do. Yeah, I think is more important than what necessarily happens along the way, which you have less control over. You have complete control over your choice. So I'm going to say intentions matter more than actions. Hmm. But I'm defining actions in a certain way. How are you defining actions? Things that happen. The fuck are we talking about? Okay. Actions are things that happen. Yeah. So for example, you intend to give me a presence, but your action on the way is you stumble and on my step on my foot. Okay. And your intention to me matters more than the fact you stepped on my foot and broke a toe. So let's say there's someone who decides I want to give back and do the right thing, but they have no money, no resources, no network, no leverage. And then there's so they have this pure intention, but they don't end up being effective in impact. Let's just say, and I know that's kind of a broad statement. And then there's some person who just cold blooded capitalist killer who like takes no prisoners, racks up incredible wealth, and then says, I'm going to give to a bunch of charities because that's the right social move. And getting rid of these boards, create really good optics, have a conversation at these dinner parties, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's not coming from virtuous intention per se, but has an outsized impact just because of the sheer resources behind it. I'll take it. You'll take it. You'll take the second one. I think doing the right thing for the wrong reason is still the right thing. Jekyll takes us more to actions and intention. What's your answer to that one? I think actions come more. Yeah. So it's the right thing for the wrong reason would still be the right thing, and that matters more. Yeah. Yeah. For me. Which isn't to say, I would like people to do the right thing for the wrong reason. But I came over who I was chatting with, but they were saying, might have been when I got a tour of Bethlehem from an Arab Christian, which is definitely a minority. And I don't know if it was him. Am I doing someone else who was saying, you know, Jews and Muslims should really get along on some level because they care more about actions than they do what's in your heart, what you believe, whereas Christians care about like what you believe. Like you can do all these atrocious things, but then truly believe and repent and be saved. And I thought about how much all of that has likely shaped cultures and empires and civilizations, right? Just that different lens on things. If it's like, we don't care what you believe. It's all about what you do. Like, follow these rituals, do these things. Don't eat this thing on this date. ABCD versus like the belief slash maybe intention is what matters. Even if you fuck up and make these terrible mistakes, that's okay. Of course, I'm going to offend like pretty much everybody on the planet by what I just said. I think you missed a few. I am dramatically oversimplifying and sorry if I don't know what the whole talking about, but I do think this question though that I threw out from this deck of cards is an interesting one, an intention versus action. I'm glad that we disagreed on it too. Yeah. And the points where we disagree to be interesting things to mind. All right.

A pandemic-inspired opportunity to express gratitude (01:52:08)

Last question because my bladder is best explored in the neck of this Scotch whiskey bottles way too narrow. For any attempt at reasonable accuracy. It's not. Tim is sharing again. It's not a claim to any like, you know, Coke can like Gerith who were were kidding. We're in Antarctica, but in case. He remember somebody with us was like, let's say, let's all take a naked shot together. We're like, no, no, no, not the most flattering shot we could do right now. What are you grateful for right now? Give you an easy answer and a harder answer. I mean, I'm so grateful for the time we spent together. Yeah, me too. Me too. The bigger and hard answer I would say is I'm so astounded at the creation and roll out of the vaccines. And like, it gives me hope for maybe humanity solving other big problems if we can all kind of focus on the same thing at the same time. And yeah, so everyone who worked on COVID. We're grateful for. I'm also really grateful for the time that we've been able to spend on this trip. It's been a while since we've done one of these and we've been disconnected, which has been a twitchy for me. I tried to download and scroll half the internet before we went offline. True Wikipedia. Let me just read about US Postal Service. I am grateful for this trip. It's been a great trip. I've had a lot of people ask me why I came to Antarctica. Like, why am I interested in Antarctica? And I am interested in Antarctica. But the main reason is just to spend time with you. We had so many great trips before and included. And now this one adding it to the list. So I'm super grateful for that. I'm super grateful for my girlfriend, honestly. She's incredible, puts up with a lot of nonsense. I don't think I'm the hardest person to be with, but I certainly don't think I'm the easiest person to do. And she's just been such a wonderful compliment. And I think we are so different yet. Our values are so similar that it allows us to really stretch in ways that... It's a good thing to look for in a partner, I would say. It's like where you are different in many ways, but then it's exactly the same on a few key. Values, goals, fighting style, communication. Yes, she is the cleanest fighter. I would say the cleanest fighter I've ever been with probably with influence on you too. I would say that. Yeah, I would say so. Hopefully she would say the same about me. I think so.

Parting thoughts from Tim and Andrew (01:54:58)

And I'm very, very grateful for that. And I'm grateful for having the bladder capacity of camel. So I don't even know what time it is. What time is it? It's probably like 10 or 11 or it got us. Oh my goodness. It is now almost 11. So it's probably a time for the camp. It is a leisure at the 11th. And it is bright as high noon as we speak. Also, thank you. We both shared a lot of personal stuff on this one. Yeah, we do. Well, thanks for that vulnerability. Yeah, thank you too, man. Yeah, really great to do this. And let's not wait another five years. All right. All right, man. Love you, bud. And to everybody who is listening, you can find links to anything we've talked about, books and so on. I don't know what else. We'll find a bunch of random links and put them in the show notes for you to peruse at Tim.blog. Thanks for that also. No problem. Recommendation from mr. Mullenweb. Tim.blog/podcast. And until next time, be just ever so slightly kinder than you think necessary. And that includes to yourself. And thanks for tuning in. Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just one more thing before you take off. And that is five bullet Friday. Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little fun before the weekend? Between one and a half and two million people subscribe to my free newsletter, my super short newsletter called Five Bullet Friday. Easy to sign up, easy to cancel. It is basically a half page that I send out every Friday to share the coolest things I've found or discovered or have started exploring over that week. Kind of like my diary of cool things. It often includes articles on reading, books on reading, albums, perhaps, gadgets, gizmos, all sorts of tech tricks and so on. They get sent to me by my friends, including a lot of podcast guests. And these strange esoteric things end up in my field. And then I test them and then I share them with you. So if that sounds fun, again, it's very short, a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend, something to think about. If you'd like to try it out, just go to Tim.blog/Friday. Type that into your browser, Tim.blog/Friday. Drop in your email and you'll get the very next one. Thanks for listening. This episode is brought to you by Tonal. Imagine having an entire gym's worth of equipment in a device smaller than a flat screen TV. Something that could fit potentially even in a closet. Fits in my closet. By eliminating traditional weights, Tonal can deliver 200 pounds of resistance with a sleep design that can fit nearly anywhere. It's like having an entire gym and personal trainer right in your home.

Interactions And Gratitude

Tonal (01:57:40)

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Eight Sleep (01:58:41)

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