Mastering Sex, Power, Gender Roles, & The Secret to Maintaining Relationships That Last | Sadia Khan | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Mastering Sex, Power, Gender Roles, & The Secret to Maintaining Relationships That Last | Sadia Khan".

1970-01-03T14:09:56.000Z

Note: This transcription is split and grouped by topics and subtopics. You can navigate through the Table of Contents on the left. It's interactive. All paragraphs are timed to the original video. Click on the time (e.g., 01:53) to jump to the specific portion of the video.


Introduction

Intro (00:00)

We are attracted to men that fulfill their potential. If your motivation for becoming rich is getting more women, you have to think about the quality of women. If it takes money to access her, you are replaceable.


Analyzing Relationship Dynamics

The Problem: Social Media & Modern Dating (00:10)

- I wanna start with a quote from you, if I may. "What social media is doing, "what this woke culture is doing, "is destroying femininity and replacing it with narcissism "and telling them that's feminism." Now you've also said that modern dating is just training for divorce. Now, if you had to get specific, what problems is modern dating creating exactly? And if you could control the social media algorithms, what values would you want to present to people to make them better at romantic relationships? - What an amazing question. Thank you for asking such an insightful question. I think what's happened, and I don't mean to blame the audience. The reality is we're not designed for this level of exposure to human beings as we are being exposed to in this current climate. We have social media, we have internet, we have dating apps, we have the ability to get webcam girls, pornography. We have such an exposure to humans that we've never been able to do, or nor are we prepared for. So what's happened is when it comes to forming relationships, it's done the opposite. What it's done is made people crave connections, but have no idea where to start and how to connect. So the reality is what I mean when I say we've turned narcissism into, and labeled it as feminism, unfortunately the advent of social media has accelerated the status of women far more than it has for men. What social media has done is allowed women a platform to kind of showcase their body, their preferences, basically put themselves in the marketplace. Men don't really have that same access, so we're creating that division between them. And what it's done is allowed women to leverage their beauty in a way that they've never been able to do before. Before, if you were a beautiful girl, you were just beautiful in your city. And people would like you, but you'd marry the guy in the city and you'd have a great life. Unfortunately now, if you're a beautiful girl, you can be a beautiful girl to the world, and you can have a million followers. So it makes every man disposable. Any man she's with essentially becomes disposable. So unfortunately, what's happening is women are learning that they become this almost like a deity in terms of beauty in a way that they've never had before. So that's what I think is happening for women. In terms of men, the main problem that's occurring is the access to pornography and the access to beautiful women. What that is doing is them seeing all these beautiful girls thinking, "I want those girls, but I don't want rejection. So what I'll do is find a way to access those girls." And it comes in the form of pornography or webcams or anything like that. So what's happening is we're distancing the sexes from each other through the advent of the internet. And if I could control the algorithm, I would wish there was a way of people being as honest and sincere as they possibly could be and removing the idea of trying to protect themselves in the form of idolizing money or sex, because that's usually what people are doing. They're protecting themselves. They're going into relationships saying, "I just want someone rich." Or a man is protecting his ego saying, "I just want someone who's good at sex." They don't really wanna get vulnerable with each other. I wish people could put that aside and put their true values of vulnerability and authenticity as a forefront. And then the algorithm could find them somebody along those lines rather than feeding their ego. - It's an amazing breakdown of the problem set. What's the point of a relationship? - I would imagine the point of a relationship is to kinda create a shared meaning and purpose. Now, throughout history, that's always been to create a family, like a shared meaning and purpose, but it doesn't have to be primarily a family. I've noticed in couples that don't embark on a family, they find a shared meaning and purpose in the form of a business or in the form of shared extended families. Maybe their brother and sisters get on really well. Maybe they have nieces and nephews or whatever. They create a shared meaning and purpose. Now, relationships which lack a shared meaning and purpose in the form of either parenting or same values or anything, they tend to end up drifting apart. So the purpose of a relationship is somebody that you can enjoy life with whilst maintaining a shared purpose and meaning that is aligned to one another. - I have a growing thesis about why modern dating is as problematic as it is.


The problem with too many options (04:14)

What is it about social media? I had never come to the conclusion that this is access to too many people problem. The thing that I worry about is that what the algorithms end up doing is they hyper fragment us so that whether it's OnlyFans or pornography, you're able to pick a very narrow thing that you want and you can indulge so deeply in that thing that you lose sight of what you're calling shared meaning and purpose. I always think of it as shared narratives. If we don't share an understanding of what the purpose of a relationship is, then we're approaching the problem with a distorted frame of reference. Now, my audience has heard me talk a lot about frame of reference, but just to set the table for this conversation. So your frame of reference is the distorted lens through which you view the entire world. There is no way for it not to be distorted. Without getting into postmodernism, while I violently disagree with the postmodernist interpretation of the world, I understand how they end up going down that path because identifying what is objectively true is very difficult when we have a brain that has to simplify the world. And to simplify it, it basically creates a simulation. And so we view the simulation and mistake it for objective reality. So the algorithms allow you to really unintentionally get this hyper distorted view of what the world is, what women is, what a relationship is, what sex is, but you don't realize it's happening. So you don't realize that you're coming to a conclusion about what a relationship is. It just happens. And so you get the red pill or you get the black pill. And you get people that have a very unhelpful setup in terms of if you're right and relationships are about shared meaning and purpose, I think you and I would both agree that the North Star, when you think about living your life well, is human flourishing. What is going to, it's not happiness, I call it fulfillment, but if you think of it as what's going to make me feel good in the widest variety of situations possible, that sort of gets you in the right direction. So this hyper fragmentation, creation of a distorted lens by which you value what relationships are, then lead people down a road where they don't flourish. So it's interesting that you singled in on this idea of shared meaning and purpose. So if we have access to too many people, how do we begin building shared meaning and purpose when we get together in relationships? - Well, the thing is, unfortunately, we have to look at our values. And once we know what our values are, we have to start learning to reject rather than glorifying the one ingredient we like. So what I mean by that is say, for example, I meet a man who just glorifies beauty. Having a beautiful partner, it monopolizes his brain. So what will happen is he might meet a beautiful woman, and the beauty of her will allow him to kind of submit to all of her demands, no matter how unreasonable they are. So she might be asking for more money than he's prepared to give, or she might be disrespectful, she might be cheating on him, she might be doing this. They're forgetting all of what the ingredients a healthy relationship looks like and focusing on an egotistical desire. Similarly, if a man has money, a woman might ignore all of the other red flags and just glorify this one extrinsic trait. So what I would say is if you wanna start a healthy relationship, make sure you have a balance of values, what you really look for in a relationship rather than what you look for to boost your ego. The people that glorify one ingredient tend to have lacked that at some stage in their life, or lacked access to that at some stage. So they glorify it, and they allow all other behaviors to be ignored, but then it eventually leads to a divorce. It eventually leads to children's homes being broken down. It eventually leads to people being crippled in the future when it comes to starting relationships again. It's so destructive. So I would say if you want a healthy relationship, have a look at your values and make sure that they are healthy, and is the person you're attaching to ticking all of the boxes, or are they just fulfilling an egotistical desire that you have at the moment? - All right, I've heard you say that you actually understand the logic of arranged marriages.


Why Arranged Marriages Work (08:33)

- Yes. - And if I understood correctly, because of this idea of shared values, what is the logic of an arranged marriage? - Essentially what psychology has always found is when two people come from similar backgrounds, they have a higher rate of them becoming successful in a relationship, only because they understand each other's norms and values in a way that nobody else can. If I understand that, let's say for example, silent treatment was given in my house, I know to give you silent, you're giving me silent treatment, we'll get back to normal, I understand that pathology in you. Or if I understand that, you know, it could even be in a toxic way, if I understand sometimes some people swear at each other, then you get back together, we understand each other's norms and values. What arranged marriages do is two parents will choose parents who are similar to them. So what will happen is they have children who have been raised relatively similar, so those two people when they get together tend to have shared norms and values. So there's an element of unspoken understanding that doesn't exist when two people in the real world are just meeting each other randomly. Especially now that we have dating apps and I can meet a man in Colombia, and a Colombian man can meet a woman in Ghana. It's so different, so we're only going to end up attaching on egotistical desires, either because we like the way each other looks or we might get on with the same music or might have the same taste in movies, but our actual upbringings are very different and norms and values are very different. So that's why I think I can understand the logic behind arranged marriages more now than ever before. - Now would you actually, like, would you like your parents to arrange your marriage? - I always rebelled against it, but now I wish I listened. - Really? - Yeah, sometimes I'm now like, oh, maybe I should have listened. Only because there was an element of you just assume you're losing your autonomy, but what you're actually doing is you're trusting the process a little bit more. So I think I could have probably made it work more if I was, when I was younger, but at the time, because I felt so controlled in other areas of my life, this is the one area where they gave me some leeway, so I was like, you're not controlling that part, but had they been more lenient in other areas, I probably would have allowed them more insight into the partner I choose. - That's interesting, are you married? - No, no. - So it's not too late. - It's not too late, but I am committed. - Oh, so you're in a relationship, gotta go. Now how does he feel about you saying, maybe I should have let them? - I think the thing is because I'm so traditional at heart, he understands where this comes from. Obviously, like we're lucky that we have the same norms and values, which is where we really, we got lucky. But because I have a very traditional mindset, and I don't know how or why, I grew up in London, I grew up in an entirely English school, I didn't have any Muslim or Pakistani friends, but for some reason, I kind of found myself orientated towards a traditional value system, and I really don't know where it came from, but I just internalized those traditional values from a really young age, and so now I can always see things from the lens of tradition rather than in the lens of modernism, and I don't know why. - It's interesting, were you traditional, I assume the traditional values came from your family. - And religion, do you know what it was? I naturally got attached to God from quite a young age. I don't know what it was, I started to feel like I couldn't trust people, so I started putting trust in God. And I think what happens then through life, I ended up looking at life through the lens of religion, and if it was acceptable by religion, then I probably would question it less. But if it was going against religion, I'd start questioning what's going on in society, and that led me to kind of forming my own opinion. So I'd question things more, particularly because everything I was around was against what I was being told by God, so I'd end up questioning it, questioning it, and I found my own kind of rhythm with psychology. - Very interesting, okay, so I wanna understand as you're taking on these traditional values, you're somebody who's very aware of the soup of life that you're in, for people that know your content, they've seen you talk a lot about, you are of the culture.


Freedom within tradition (12:28)

Like you're from Dubai, not from Dubai, but you live in Dubai now, when you talk about modern dating you're talking about it from that perspective, this is what it's like, this is what I see you coach in this area, so you definitely get the space. I would assume that's something you've always been good at, so I'm curious, as you were growing up, you're weighing sort of, okay, religion is telling me this, I see people doing the opposite of that. Were you looking at that and going, ah, it doesn't seem to make them happy? Was that the thing that you checked it against? - I think so, I think what happened is I had a choice, especially now, like living abroad, away from the prying eyes of parents or anything, I had a choice, I could either live my life accordance to the rules of God, or I could be like, screw that, I'm doing the exact opposite of what I've been told by God, which is what a lot of religious people do when they finally find freedom. But when I looked at doing the opposite of what God prescribed, I found that it looked like mayhem. So, for example, I'm not allowed to drink. The opposite would be to get really drunk, but when I would see people doing that, it didn't look like something I would enjoy. Or I'm not allowed to have sex and all this stuff, and casuals, when I looked at people who were enjoying in that, I saw the negative consequences of children, and having the abortion debate, and all of these things, and I just thought doing the opposite doesn't look healthy psychologically. So I ended up going more towards a tradition while staying very alert and aware of what was going on in the real world, because all my friends do indulge, and I'm not judgmental, so I ended up being really good friends with people who do, but I just realized it wasn't good for me personally. - Ooh. - Mm-hmm. - Do you really think it's just you personally, or do you not think it's pretty universal? - I would say it's universal, but I don't wanna put my views on it. - Offend away. - But for me, I just feel no rule, and I know a lot of people find my religion misogynistic, and they find it really negative, but there was no rule when I look at the opposite, did I think the opposite is better. For example, we might, as women, have to cover, I know I don't, but we're supposed to cover. When I look at what the opposite looks like, the opposite might be pornography, women, only fans. The opposite doesn't look healthy to me. I'm sure there's a good middle ground, but when we live in quite a polarizing universe, I know which side I'd rather be on, and so that's what made me always, every time I see the opposite, and because I live in a world now, because of technology, I can literally see what the opposite of religion looks like. It looks like only fans, it looks like lots of sexual promiscuity, it looks like getting drunk a lot. I just thought the opposite doesn't make sense to me, so it means that the restrictions actually might be healthy for me personally. - It's interesting, so-- - Do you drink alcohol?


Rejecting the alternatives (15:29)

- I do occasionally, but not very often. - How come? - It makes me feel like I'm suppressing the urge to dance on a table, which is wonderful, and I love that feeling. The reason I don't do it is entirely because it's brutal on the body. And so I don't like the way it makes me feel the next day, and I worry that it shortens my lifespan. But if it didn't, like if it didn't make me feel bad, I would have no problem doing it on the weekends and having fun. I'm a hyper-disciplined, goal-oriented person, so I'd never do it during the week. That's a whole different thing. So I wanna go back to religion. So I grow increasingly fascinated by the role of religion, why it lasted as long as it did, why it seemed to dip for a while, and seems to be coming back. My hypothesis goes like this. I think it's something like, religion was, humans are a storytelling species. That's what we do. We are all about simplifying the world, turning it into a meme that can be passed on, and religion is the ultimate meme spreader. And so when something works, and to, you're Islamic? - Yeah. - Okay. So to use a law that you guys put in place, don't eat pork. Now, my gut instinct is that the reason that became true is because of, is it trigonosis? I think it's the thing if you undercook pork. And so you don't necessarily, I mean, you don't have the scientific data to back up, but you know something's wrong. And so you're like, ah, that's not a great idea. And in trying to explain it to people, it ends up becoming a part of oral tradition at first, of course, and then ultimately gets written down, and that becomes the word of God. And so it is a very useful tactic, whether on purpose or on accident. I don't know how this ends up forming, but it is a very useful thing to put it in the mouth of God, and say, God says don't do this thing. - To legitimize it. - Yeah, exactly. So don't have kids out of wedlock. Why? Because they are less likely to survive, right? So I think religion ultimately is basically the ultimate way to get a very good idea to cross over time. And that if one were to write the Bible today, it would say things like don't do an OnlyFans account. Make sure that you have values as you go into your marriage. Whatever the things are that are going to lead to human flourishing in that moment. And the reason that these ideas stay and cross through so much time is because they're so useful. - Right. - And that's where this gets really intriguing to me for people now, so going back to shared narratives. Religion gave people shared narratives. They made it easier to make the right choices because you didn't have to reinvent the wheel. - So prescribed for you. - Exactly, I think a lot about culture stacks. Meaning I don't have to rediscover electricity. I'm born into a world that has electricity. I don't have to rediscover the printing press or the wheel. And as we invent things like the printing press and the internet, now all of a sudden ideas can travel fast. - Right. - My growing concern is that there's too much velocity of information now, we'll set that aside. But religion was sort of that initial way to get these ideas for the smart ideas in culture to be easily transmissible to the next generation so that they could stand on the shoulder of giants. - Okay, so to make them concise and clear so people know what they're doing, don't have to think. - Exactly, yeah, just you follow the word of God and things are gonna be better. But now if you had to abstract the values that people should be imbuing as they come into a relationship, instead of necessarily saying because God said so, if you had to distill it to the values that just make humans thrive, what values are those? - It would be, is my behavior going to lead to a long lasting stable connection between the two of us? Now, if we always-- - You think that's better? So long lasting relationships. - Long lasting relationships. - Why is that good? - Because I think what happens with long lasting, firstly, they're more likely to create a shared meaning and purpose. Also, what happens is you end up knowing that you start to learn to reject things. If I know I'm gonna stay with you forever, what will happen is I reject maybe going to clubs every night because I know who I'm gonna be home with. I reject dating multiple people at the same time. I reject sleeping around because I know where I'm ending up. - But why are those good things? - What I would say is the plethora of options reduces our satisfaction in anything anyway. So the idea, what monogamy does is it allows you to focus. It doesn't mean good or bad. But what I mean by this is if I'm only dating you and it's just you, at least in that two or three months where I'm just focusing on you, I either learn that you're the love of my life or I learn that you're terrible for me and I should never speak to you again. But if I dilute my experience with you by also talking to Tom, Dick, and Harry, what will happen is I'm wasting energy not realizing that you might be really bad for me, but I haven't noticed because I'm also seeing Tom, Dick, and Harry, or you might be amazing for me. Again, I haven't noticed. So the reality is it creates internal chaos, whereas internal consistency will allow us to know what's good and bad for us and then remove ourselves or enjoin ourselves in what it is. But unfortunately, diluting the experience means that we end up being chaotic and we lose the ability to create an identity because we're almost spreading ourselves too thinly. So I think monogamy is a great way, it's a shortcut. It will either tell you we're gonna work out or it'll tell you we're never gonna work out, but at least I know through confining myself to that space. - Okay, so limit your options. Is limiting your options is a necessary thing for happiness? - I would say not necessarily limiting, but rejecting alternatives in order to like-- - I don't understand the difference. - Well, limiting your options would be like you don't even pay attention to what the alternative could be and you just stick to what you know. Rejecting the alternatives is knowing what you have, knowing what the alternative would look like, and having the strength to say I don't want it. - Okay, but how can you know the alternative? You talked about in the beginning, we just see too many people. And that back in the day it was easier because you didn't see as many people and you were pretty, but you were just pretty in your hometown and you were gonna marry somebody in your hometown. So if too many people is part of the problem set, it doesn't seem like awareness of all the options is necessary for thriving. - No, because it creates an illusion of options. What will happen is just like if you were to open a Tinder account, luckily you probably never had to do any online dating, right? - Very fortunate. - People are incredibly fortunate, but what it looks like is you go in there and you're overwhelmed. So what would happen is a person would go on there and any single person can be easily replaced by the next swipe and the next swipe. So you end up applying minimal investment to each person. Everybody becomes disposable and then by the end of it, you don't wanna spend time with any of them because they've all just replaced each other. Whereas minimal kind of exposure means that I have the time and social battery and energy to invest in each person and then figure out who's right for me. But when I'm just swiping and there's millions of options, I don't actually realize what's good or bad for me. - You can reboot your life, your health, even your career, anything you want. All you need is discipline. I can teach you the tactics that I learned while growing a billion dollar business that will allow you to see your goals through. Whether you want better health, stronger relationships, a more successful career, any of that is possible with the mindset and business programs in Impact Theory University. Join the thousands of students who have already accomplished amazing things. Tap now for a free trial and get started today.


Limit your options (23:36)

- So I still wanna say it sounds like you're saying that you do wanna limit your options, but that doesn't feel right to you. Why doesn't saying limiting options-- - Yeah, maybe I am saying it incorrectly because I think when people hear limiting the options, they think settling. - They do. - Yeah, and they-- - But is that not part of what you're saying? You're saying arranged marriage makes sense. - Yeah, I do think, do you know what it is? What they see as settling, they see it as with a negative connotation. Yeah, they see settling-- - But are they right? - No, because settling doesn't mean that you are compromising on what you truly want. It's just that you're recognizing what you truly want. So settling implies that you're not happy with what you've got. What I'm suggesting is you're so happy with what you got that you reject the alternatives. And you'll only become so happy with what you got through being able to reject the alternatives. - Interesting, so one, I think, arranged marriages are a terrible idea, but I don't know that this is true, but I've heard something about divorce rates being lower in arranged marriages. - Yeah, they're the lowest. - All right, that's true? - Yeah, that's true. - Okay, this is one of those times, Axel, pull that shit up. I wanna know if that's really true. If divorce rates in arranged marriages really are lower-- - Yeah, they should be. - Then there is something, okay, the divorce rate for arranged marriages is estimated at 4%, while the divorce rate where people choose their partners is estimated to be close to 40%. I don't know that I believe this. - Have a look at the divorce rates in somewhere like India or somewhere where the arranged marriages are prominent. But I promise you it's lower. But that could also, I wanna preface that. That could also be because there's a stigma associated to divorce in cultures which practice arranged marriages. So it could be mitigated by that, but on the whole, I would like to think that, from what I remember, arranged marriages have the lowest levels of divorce because people who engage in arranged marriages don't do it with the purpose of assuming that love is the glue that keeps you together forever. - Okay, so love isn't the glue that keeps you together?


Love isn't the glue (25:35)

- Whereas when you go into a marriage-- - What is the glue? - Well, I would say it's different for most people, but I would imagine that most people, what I would imagine is the glue is a duty to one another's wellbeing and the function of the marriage. I would imagine that the glue that keeps a relationship together is, even though we might have a rough year, a rough five years, a rough 10 years even, but your wellbeing matters to me and my wellbeing matters to you. And so therefore, making sure that we engage in a lifelong purpose of maintaining that and the duty that we created towards one another when we made our vows is more important than how we're feeling right now. It's a bit like if you signed a 10-year contract with a basketball team. If you're a basketball player, you might hate it some months, you might love it some seasons, whatever it is, but you're committed to the purpose and the duty that the contract suggested. - This is very interesting. Okay, so a duty to one another's wellbeing. - Why do you disagree with arranged marriage? Sorry to interrupt you, but why? - Not at all, I love that you're here. - Why do you disagree with arranged marriages? - Okay, so you and I share a lot of values. If we were to lay out what values we think people need to have in order to have a successful marriage, I actually will be very surprised if they are at all different. I rebel against authority so violently, you can't imagine. One of my primary values is autonomy. So I cannot live in a world where somebody gets to tell me who to love, I need to be free to be a moron. And it is un, for me, it is authoritarian to oppose something like that top down. - Okay, did you rebel against your parents' authority when you were younger? What was it about the way that they relayed orders to you that you didn't like? - They wanted me to do something I didn't wanna do. My parents were incredibly loving. I have no beef. If you watched me, you would have thought I was a brat. You wouldn't have thought, "Oh, his parents are really mean or anything." Yep, I just don't do well with that. Which we could easily derail into why I think from an evolutionary standpoint, the tribe needs some people like me, they need some people like you, my wife, they need all of it. I just had a conversation yesterday with Gad Saad and he was saying, "Oh, maybe I shouldn't be this way." And I was like, "Mm, actually, I think it's good that the tribe has your style of communication, which can be very aggressive, very satirical, but it's good that we have that perspective." So I don't think as a tribe we want uniformity. We want, the only way to truly narrow in on what is true is to get a bunch of different perspectives, make sure everybody can speak up. So I think it's probably good that the tribe has people like me that just cannot deal with authority. But that's why I don't like arranged marriages. It doesn't necessarily mean that arranged marriages won't yield more human flourishing. And so if I had time to really review the data, I may walk away going, "Hey guys, look, "I wouldn't wanna do it, but the data's in "and arranged marriages just work better." - Usually from a psychological perspective, people who reject authority. Growing up, they didn't trust their parents' authority either because they didn't have the same values or because they didn't like the method in which they relayed it. So they end up losing trust for their parents' authority and then that just extends through life. Whereas people who really trust and respect their parents' authority end up accepting authority later on in life. - Do you think we're blank slates? - No, no, I don't think so. I think a lot of it is blank slates, but I do think we have a natural temperate. - Give me a rough percentage. - I would say that we are 30% genetics and 70% environment. - Interesting, okay. - What would you say? - 50/50 is what science ballpark says. - Yeah, but I would say that your environment is pretty much everything. I personally think that my personality-- - Wait, wait, wait, can you just say your environment is pretty much everything? - Well, it's more so than your temperament because I believe that personally, the traits I hold, if I wasn't a woman and if I wasn't raised in the right environment, if I didn't have the parents, I did, I would very much be criminal personality. It's very criminal. - Really? - I'm fearless. - I'm shocked by that. - Yeah, I'm absolutely fearless. I have no fear. - But why would that lead you to criminality? - Because if I was growing up in an environment where money was scarce and poverty was real and role models were criminal, I definitely would indulge in it. I don't have a fear of repercussions. And it's such a strange thing for somebody who believes in God, but I naturally do not have a fear. I believe in God, but I don't have a fear of repercussions. So naturally, if I see a police officer and if they annoy me, I'll say what I need to say. Now, if I was a man with that mentality and if I was somebody who was struggling for money with that personality, there's no way I'd still be on the streets. I'd be in prison or at least rehab. - That's really fascinating. I'm shocked by that. Okay, so going back to arranged marriage, the value set. - Yeah. - Okay, so we understand why I don't like arranged marriage, but at the same time, human flourishing is my North Star and I don't think there's anything in life that will give you more of the things that I would ballpark to human flourishing than a healthy, romantic partnership, which that word's very important to me for people dealing with the modern dating world. I would just say, do not see your significant other as an adversary, you need to be looking for a partner. So life has taught me, there's a reason I've been married for 21 years. Life has taught me that it's worth the investment, but I actually find, so I think you're picking up on my reaction as if I don't agree with you.


Duty to one anothers well being (31:00)

- No, I know, because I've seen you in interviews before, you challenge the people that you still kind of fundamentally agree with, you just wanna make sure you understood them correctly. - Correct. - Yeah. - So duty, also, I think people are going to have a hard time with some of the words you're using. But what I like about you is you're unafraid to take your stance, so duty to one another's wellbeing. And I will say, when I got married, I tattooed four words on my arm as a reminder to me what this was all about. To make it work well. And they were love, passion, commitment, and respect. And commitment was, I was very aware that men are valued for their ability to acquire resources and women are valued for their beauty. And so I was like, ooh, as my value goes up in a traditional sense, my wife's will go down in a traditional sense. And there's a whole nother thing to life, though, which is sharing a life with somebody. Now, in that very small set of words hides a lot. But I wanted Lisa to know, you never have to worry about me trading you in for an upgraded model. The reason you don't have to worry about me trading you in for an upgraded model is not because I think you're the most beautiful woman in the world. I don't think you're the most beautiful woman in the world today. I'm not gonna think you're the most beautiful woman in the world when you're 90. So I want you to understand I'm committed to you because you make my life better. And I wanna share this life with you. And I'm not the best looking guy in the world. And I'm not gonna be the richest guy in the world. I certainly wasn't the richest guy when we met, I will tell you that. So that was important to me that we both focus on that idea that we have a duty to one another's wellbeing. And like, as somebody that hates authority, I get why people don't wanna submit to that. All right, forgive me. But the other day I was talking to somebody about, I'm not religious, but I want something to kneel before. - Well, that's a really interesting desire to have for somebody who's not religious. - I think every human being has that. And I think that people don't acknowledge that. And this is part of how people spiral out of control because we don't have shared narratives anymore and so people don't understand how to navigate life. Thankfully, I read a book called "The Power of Myth" by Joseph Campbell. I highly recommend it. And so I realized, oh yeah, I do want to kneel before something. And one of the things that I kneel before is my marriage, not my wife, my marriage. - I love that. - And so that idea of each of us are going to kneel before this thing that is greater than either of us individually. And we are going to protect it fiercely because we have a duty to one another's wellbeing. Why? Not because God told us to, but because that's what leads to human flourishing, which is why I think people say God tells you to. - Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I think you're very true. Everybody has a need. And I think it's an involved need. We all have a need to worship. Now, the problem is because we've got no sense of God anymore, we've replaced the need to worship with either we're going to worship celebrities or we're going to worship like influencers or we're going to start worshiping ourselves and our own egotistical desires. So that's why I think it's always good to submit to something. I personally submit to God, but it could also be your marriage. It could be also your parents. For some people, it could be whatever it is. But having nothing to submit to means that you will definitely submit to your own desires. - Do you think people need to be very careful what they choose to submit to? - I think, yeah, they do. They definitely need to be very careful because the thing is, whether we like it or not, we submit to the law, the systems of the law and the laws that we live in. Now, as we, even in our short period of being alive, we've seen the laws change drastically. Now, the reason why I don't recommend submitting completely to a culture or society or the norms and values of a culture is they're so changing so rapidly. So it leads to a fragile identity. Whereas what I like about religion is it creates a stable identity throughout the years. You'll never have to say, what does God think about this? You know. Whereas the laws and system, what could have been seen as offensive now would have been seen as normal practice 20 years ago. I just wonder what that does to people's identity, knowing that what they once believed in now is the worst thing on the planet. And then it might be cool again. Then it might be, I don't know if it creates an internal dialogue that is steady. So that's why I recommend it. - Now you migrated from submit to kneel. Or sorry, from kneel to submit.


Kneel before your marriage (35:44)

- Yeah. - And so do you, I see a pretty radical difference between those two. - What do you see as the difference? - So I submit to the law, but I don't kneel before the law. And if the law were to get deranged, which I have extreme fears about right now. - Yeah. - I would oppose it. - Right. - Whereas my marriage, there are ways that it could become dysfunctional to the point where I would exit my marriage. So I'm not somebody who thinks no matter what. - Yeah. - But when I say that I kneel before my marriage, it is entirely my responsibility to make sure that it does not devolve to that. - Okay. - So taking it back to the law, I kneel before the ideals that, oh God, before I make this statement, I was going to say I kneel before the ideals, the ideals that this country was founded on. - Yeah. - I need to educate myself more deeply on that. I kneel before the ideals, I think this country was founded upon. That's probably the more true. - I don't know enough, I'm afraid, but I'm sure there's something offensive in the-- - Is there in the-- - Maybe. - I don't know enough. - Yeah, I don't know enough, yeah. - But anyway, I draw a distinction between the law and the ideals that should be aimed at human thriving. - I get what you mean by the difference between kneeling and submitting. One sounds more voluntary, the other one sounds like it is what it is, like it's more involuntary. So I understand what you probably mean but when you say kneeling and submitting, they're not synonymous. Yeah, I get what you mean. - Okay, so going back to the values that make a relationship work. So the four things that I think originally I was gonna get like nine tattooed and the tattoo artist was like, the writing will be too small. So it was an interesting exercise to force me to boil it down to those four. If you had to give people three to five things, values like super succinct that are going to allow them to have that longevity, what would those be?


Three things everybody needs in a relationship (37:38)

- I would say the first is honesty, even if it hurts. And the reason why I think honesty is such an important one is even when it's something like, if my partner says, "Sada, you've gained weight." Yeah, as much as I might not like that, or you know, your makeup doesn't look nice, as much as I don't like that, what it does is it redirects me into a way that will keep us connected. One of the reasons why so many people end up having affairs is they have this kind of unmet need but a fear of telling the truth to their partner because their partner is so fragile and easily offended. So there might be a man that feels like his wife has let go and doesn't wanna tell her but then will outsource sexual desire elsewhere. It might be a woman that feels like her man is not, you know, aggressive enough physically when they're making love and whatever, so she ends up never saying it to him and then outsourcing it elsewhere. So I would say honesty is important but honesty without brutality. What happens is people who suppress it is that they don't say the truth but when they get into a fight, they say the truth but with venom. They say, "This is why you're so shit." And this is why, they say it negatively. So you want honesty without brutality, honesty with, whilst you're on a good terms rather than just during a fight. So I'd say honesty is a really important one about what your needs are. Another thing is being, not doing anything behind your partner's back that you wouldn't do in front of their face. And there's a, what I mean by that is even if that means you talk-- - Can we call that integrity? - Yeah, I would say so, integrity. Because even if, let's say for example, he's texting a girl or I'm texting a boy, if that's something I would do in front of him, say, "I'm just messaging this person, or I'm just talking to this person." There's nothing wrong with that. But you would do it the same behind their back as you would in front of them. That integrity is really important. You don't become a different person when they leave because the people who do that end up having two parallel lives. They live completely different lives. And I think it all kind of boils down to honesty really. I would say if anything, I would just say honesty is a really important one because it enables all the other features of a good connection to thrive. If I'm honest with you about what I like in terms of emotional intimacy, we create emotional intimacy.


The wife going from housewife to entrepreneur (39:49)

If I'm honest what I like in terms of physical intimacy, we create that. If I'm honest about what makes me less attractive to you, we create good attraction. So I would just say that honesty is a really important one. Would you add anything else to that one? - So we've got honesty, integrity. Yeah, so mine are the four that I have tattooed on myself. - What does respect look like to you? Because I know that's something that men always talk a lot about. But in literal terms, what would respect look like from a man's perspective? - So respect is, one of the reasons I chose that is a lot of things go into that. So for me, being honest with somebody is how you show them respect. If I'm lying to you, I am not respecting you. If I lack integrity, I'm not respecting you. The easiest way for me to explain respect though would be my wife went from a traditional housewife and I loved it because she took care of everything. It was amazing. In fact, at some point we should talk about what it was like for the two of us to research and interview you on the same day. 'Cause it was like had us asking each other questions. - Yeah, she mentioned something. - Yeah, which was really actually really fun. I really wish more people would do things like that. They should watch your episodes and then talk to each other. So that is when you have the respect of, I know who my wife wants to become 'cause she wanted to go from housewife to entrepreneur and that was deeply uncomfortable for me. And I had to mourn the loss of my traditional wife but I needed to respect that she wanted to become something else. And so the thing that occurred to me as we were going through this was I believe, I mean, going back, you really put great words around it that I have a duty to my wife's wellbeing. And so the words that kept occurring to me were, I want you to be the best version of yourself. And so I would never want to stop you from becoming who you want to be. And so she was very graceful in letting me mourn that I was losing something. And then I showed her the respect to help her, not only give her the space, but to help her become the person that she wants to become and not just be a cheerleader, but literally be a savage in the fight for what she wants. So there's a lot that goes into that. - What did you miss about her going from traditional housewife to successful entrepreneur? - Man, this is gonna be, this is a big rabbit hole. - Because you mentioned today that she was watching one of my videos and me, I talk a lot about how men, I know it sounds so ridiculous, but they just love a meal from their wife. It doesn't even have to be home cooked, just her plating it or her knowing what he likes. - Do you get why that matters to guys? - I don't know if that's an evolutionary thing, if it's something that's in them. But I also think that because they're not so verbal, acts of service means a lot to them because they don't know how to express their needs sometimes. So somebody understanding their needs and predicting them before they have to say it. - That's very different, but that's why. For me, now this is one where I'm not confident enough that this is universal. - Explain to me. - Having somebody understand me so well that they can anticipate my needs and that I'm so important to them that they wanna make that need go away before I have to deal with it. But there's a reason for that. Now, there's a lot of tension around what I'm about to say between my wife and I. This is so fascinating to me because this is, I think, my wife's fundamental misunderstanding of the nature of a man. And I am a savage for my wife.


Respecting your partners needs, space and ambitions (43:32)

Everything I do, I do for my wife. I work as hard as I work for my wife. Now, here's the problem. My wife wishes I wouldn't work that hard. What do you do with that? So now my wife is crying out for me, please work less. You say you do this for me, but I need you to work less. And what I'm saying to her is I need to be appreciated for how hard I'm working, which is what you show me when you recognize my needs and make them go away. I then feel like being a savage for you is being rewarded. It's being acknowledged. It's being appreciated. Appreciation is the right word. And ladies, I'm telling you right now, if you appreciate your man and make him feel powerful, that's it, it's a wrap. Nothing else. - Which is why I always say that successful men have it the hardest. I'm not talking about you. I think, praise be to God, you have a very beautiful marriage. But generally speaking, successful men, I find have the hardest time when it comes to being married. And it's because they create a life that it almost enables a lazy woman. Yeah, I mean, that hasn't happened for you. She's an absolute legend in her field. But the majority of very successful CEOs happen to have wives who then have nannies, cooks, chefs, so on and so forth. And what happens is that she doesn't have to rely on any instinct to predict her partner's needs because it's all taken care of. It's all kind of outsourced. But he still craves female attention. He craves his wife loving him. He craves his wife saying, "Oh, baby, your shirt is ironed." Or, "Baby, your lunch is packed. "I bought those stupid crisps that you love." It seems so small and effortless, yet he doesn't get that. Whilst he's building an empire to help create a life that she loves, she sees it as childish to kind of do that for him. And we label what a man needs as childish. You can do it yourself, but we can do it ourselves. We can pay our own bills now, but we still love it when a man does it. So I think that's where I say the narcissism is coming through. Feminism has taught women that catering and appreciating and showing love for your man is babying him, and he should be a grownup, and he should do it himself. But then how else does he feel loved? How else is he gonna get it? The only other way to get it is sexually, and then that is replaceable. Any girl can have sex with you, but how many girls will know what you want in your sandwich? And if that's not your wife, then who's it gonna be? So they start to outsource affection, and they end up, majority of the times, with gold diggers, and they end up with escorts who they fall in love with. I've met so many successful, intelligent men fall absolutely head over heels in love with escorts, because you've gotta remember the market of an escort or a webcam. She deals with men with low self-esteem every day, every single day. So she knows all she has to do is take an interest in him for five minutes, and he's putty in your hands. So she will say, "Oh, I got you a jam sandwich. "I know you love it." And he will be like, "I'm in love." She knows what she's doing. So they end up falling into such a bad pattern, because they're so starved of appreciation. So that's why I try and encourage women to prevent them going down that route. - I think that's very wise, and it is hilarious to me how easy it is to manipulate men and women. - Have you seen any side of that with working with successful men? Do you ever see, or do they not kinda tell each other what they do on the side? - Yeah, guys are not gonna be open about that kinda thing, like what makes you putty in somebody's hands. I mean, you can sorta pick it up with some guys, but no. - You don't see it as much, maybe 'cause I live in Dubai, so I see the average 70 or 60-year-old man walking around with a 24-year-old model, and then you see what's happened. Like, you see how he's got there. But what would've happened is years of feeling neglected or rejected, now somebody just makes him feel alive. Although it's transactional, they're willing to pay that cost just to get that feeling.


Addressing Relationship Issues

GENDER WARS | COMING FROM A PLACE OF EVOLUTION NOT EQUIVALENCE (47:30)

- Right. - Yeah, so. - Yeah, I mean, it is utterly fascinating. Like, people really need to understand men and women. This is one of the things that I found very interesting about you, and I have a feeling that there's gonna be a lot of response, I don't know what the right word is, rebound effect, from how hard, like, whatever fourth-wave feminism has gone. - Yeah. - And then the other side, where women go, oh, wait, to get a man and to keep him happy, these are all the things that I have to do. And because I think there's so much evolutionary pressure at our backs to deliver in that way, I think, and look, everything's a cycle. And so if we go now into a sort of deeply traditional part of the cycle, there'll be a rebound against that later down the road. - Yeah, of course, yeah. - This stuff will just cycle, cycle, cycle. - But do you think that's where the red pill came in? Is it, they found a space from that? - Ooh, no, the red pill, I think, is a response to the velocity of information, people feeling very rejected, the algorithm starting to feed you, somebody who's like, you know, fuck these women, this is the truth, look how they manipulate you, wake up, like, and now you see the truth of it, and have painted women as adversaries. - Yeah. - That's a real mistake. - Real, huge mistake. - Because people are not thinking about what the, they've never defined for themselves what's their North Star. Your North Star should be human flourishing. - Yeah. - I am a firm believer that, this is on average, of course, gay people exist, and they are capable of wonderful lives full of love and joy, but from an evolutionary standpoint, the male-female dichotomy in a relationship makes a lot of sense, and you really do, from a procreation standpoint, you make a whole, and so together you're able to do something that you weren't able to do apart. - Yeah, do you think that applies to parenting as well? Does what apply to parenting? - Having the dichotomy of a male and female. - Oh, for sure, for sure. In terms of raising well-balanced, yeah, absolutely. - Yeah, I think so as well. I know that might sound as controversial, but it's just, it's a fact of life. I think children end up benefiting from that masculine-feminine dynamic, and unfortunately we've made it like it's a sin to suggest how in sync those two energies should be, because people who are trying to pit men and women against each other just get more views, and they get more kind of accolade on the internet, so unfortunately we're going, drifting down that path, but does your audience and your realm, they all value marriage and value the connection? - I don't know, that's a good question. So one of the exercises that I'm trying to go on now is really defining what the through line of the show is for people so they can understand. For me, it's always been self-evidently empowerment, but the number of things that that will go through, so what we end up doing is our audiences around topics, and they're totally separate, and so if I do an episode on finance, I can predict how it's gonna do. If I do an episode on relationships, I can predict how it's gonna do, and it's not the same people, and so what I really want people to understand is this is about empowering you to live life well, and there is one through line through every person that I bring on the show, but no, the people that would come to me for relationships are very different than the people that would come to me for finance, et cetera, et cetera. So I honestly don't know how they feel about marriage.


BALANCING FIT GEEK AND MARRIAGE (51:00)

- How did you balance a healthy relationship while being so unbelievably successful? 'Cause usually one gives, well, it's the other one kind of suffers, but how did you manage that? I haven't seen that very often, so I'm very impressed by it. - So one, my number one priority is my marriage, and so Lisa and I talk about that, but as I was just saying, she wishes I worked less. She would gladly trade in some percentage of our success for that, and so we've really had to communicate endlessly, and so communication is something we're extraordinarily good at, and then we know what each other's good at, and she will feel disconnected before me, and so I have said, okay, cool, you're empowered. If you feel disconnected, I will listen to you, and so we won't wait for me to feel disconnected 'cause that will take way too long, and you'll really be upset by that point. So speak up. When you say something, I will immediately adjust my behavior. So for instance, Quest ended up coming into existence because I was so unhappy at the company we were running before that, and she said, this is now damaging our marriage. You need to do something, and so that something was to quit, long story. That ends up becoming Quest and ends up being amazing, but I was really born out of my wife saying, okay, this is damaging the marriage, and me saying, hey, I said if you ever said it that I would make immediate change. So that's really important. You have to know-- - Where did you learn that skill? - At 14, I started having a recurring nightmare that I was in a loveless marriage. - Really? - At 14. I'd never been in a relationship. Lisa's the only person I have ever said I love you to in a romantic way. - Oh, stop, really? - Yes, so now at 18, my dad leaves and says he's been unhappy for 10 years. - Right, makes sense. - So now you can track it back. Oh shit, he's been unhappy since I was eight. And so there was something that I was picking up on that I never could have explained to you. I was young, first of all, but I'm recurring. - Recurring that your energies of children, they pick up on their parents' happiness. - And that it translates into, I had no conscious awareness of it whatsoever. So anyway, one, I'm already, I'm deeply self-aware, I'm empathetic, and so I have this recurring nightmare. So I make a promise to myself, I'm okay never getting married I'm not okay being with somebody that I actually don't like that much. And so I'm a very specific flavor. And so I learned very quickly that I would have to pretend to be something I wasn't around people. And so there's no mistake that Lisa happened not long after I said, I'm gonna start aggressively being myself. And if people don't like it, I don't give a shit. And so, but coupled with, I won't be in a loveless marriage, it takes work. And I read Cosmopolitan a lot. So here, my mom told me the best piece of advice I ever got about women, because this shook my entire worldview. My entire worldview fell apart. This was so foreign to me. She said, almost as a throwaway comment, you know, for women to have an orgasm, they have to trust you. And I was like, what? I just need a location. Like that was so, trust. Like what could that possibly have to do with an orgasm? And so that sent me on a very detailed quest to figure out, okay, women think differently than I do. - But you know, one thing I would say is I know women, I completely agree with your mom's statement, but we're almost taught that men can disconnect emotionally from sex. I really disagree with that because if you get a man to have sex with a woman who looks like she's not enjoying it and looks like she's in pain, or looks like she'd rather not be there, his fulfillment is minimal. There's nothing there. Whereas when he would rather take a less attractive woman who looks like she's having the time of her life and looks like she adores him over an attractive woman who looks like she can't stand him. So there is something psychological in it for men as well. If it was just a human need, and every hole is a goal, they wouldn't read a woman's expression so deeply. I know men that have become impotent because their wife has expressed such disgust when they've tried to be sexually active with her, and they've literally lost their ability to erect. So I do think it's equally psychological. I just think men don't realize it's psychological because they're so usually so erect and ready to roll, but I do think it's psychological signals that determines their sexual pleasure. - That is more true than you know. - Is that true? Because it's just what I keep noticing. - I will say that you're interpreting that through the mind of a woman. - Yes. - And so I will say that they're for a guy, neutral to positive, fantastic. Now, if the person is really into you, that's gonna be way more fun. Way more fun. - What if she's really not into you? - I couldn't do it, no way. There's no universe in which. - It would activate the predatory fear in a man. Like you never wanna be feeling like a rapist. So I would imagine if she's not into, unfortunately. - That much to my dismay will not be universal. - Not universal, no. - That is horrifying to me, but something tells me.


Rap is associated with  wars. (56:19)

- Do you think that's pornography related or do you think that predates pornography? - Yeah, oh God. So here we're now in territory. I have not looked at the literature. I don't know what the real answer is. But when you think about what was war historically, it was the, you had excess men in the population who did not have access to women. There was a massive Gini coefficient, meaning there was a huge discrepancy between the men that had and the men that did not have. So there's a hypothesis that Vikings were a society in which one man would monopolize many women. So you had a lot of guys that were like, well, how do I get a woman? You go to war. And there was some recent thing where like a tribe that's still alive, where they were like, when asked, why do you go to war? They said, oh, for women. And they were like, what other reason would you ever go to? Like they were so confused. - They couldn't understand it. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh, wow. - And so that's horrifying. - Yeah, no, I don't-- - I'm very sad that that's a true thing. - But yeah, same. There's even like evidence of a particular fly that holds down the wings of the female fly, inseminates and runs away. Like rape is, it's in the animal kingdom as well. Doesn't justify it, but it does exist. But I just wonder, like, is the advent of porn reducing the desire to rape because you're kind of getting access to it? Or does it kind of glorify rape? I don't know, I don't watch, so I don't know. But I'm wondering from a man's perspective, is it cathartic and you kind of get rid of that? - That's not my kink, so that one I wouldn't be able to speak to. But my gut instinct is porn does sedate. And that whatever, it's not like it will keep ratcheting up, ratcheting up, ratcheting up until you go out and do something. I have a feeling, I've heard you talk about serial killers being addicted to porn. I have a feeling that that's correlation and absolutely not causation. You have somebody who is just, they are broken from an empathy perspective. And so their response to porn would be - Very different. - complete objectification. This person is an inanimate object and that's why it plays out in their sadistic sex. Where Ted Bundy, who I have read about 'cause he unfortunately lived where I grew up. - No way. - Yeah, so I learned quite a bit about him. And so that feels more like somebody, a thing in their brain is broken. - I do agree in that sense because in order to form an addiction to pornography, there has to be a level of emptiness and a brokenness in their soul to lead to that escapism and then coupled and then it might lead going to other poor behaviors. So I don't think it's necessarily a cause. I think it's a pit stop on the destiny of becoming something evil, unfortunately. - I don't know that, becoming evil, yes, probably there probably is a path. But this is where I will say, if we're 50% hardwired and 50% the environment that man, I don't think you become Hitler or Ted Bundy unless part of the 50% that's hardwired is broken. - Yeah, there has to be something prenatal in there.


Some men are not monogamous by nature. (59:16)

- Yeah, because I like as somebody who's wired for empathy, like I just can't fathom. - Yeah. - I can't fathom. - Do you think empathy is the ingredient that's allowed you to be so monogamous and not be tempted? - Okay, so this I've thought a lot about. No, I don't think that's the thing because if you said to me, hey, she'll never find out. - Yeah. - Never ever. - No pain. - Yeah, no way, she is never gonna know. Like this is guaranteed by God, not gonna happen. - And that's very doable in this day and age. - Yes, would you cheat? Hell no, okay, then why not? - Yeah. - Two reasons, one, I am my brain literally, if you were to do a biopsy of my brain, I have a feeling you would find that I have massive amounts of receptors for vasopressin and oxytocin. The sense of intense bonding I get with my wife is fucking crazy and so I feel bad because that means I just have a leg up. Like part of why I've been able to-- - Me too, I agree, I don't feel like it's any virtue in me. I think it's something just in me that makes it impossible for me to be simultaneously with two people. I don't think it's 'cause I'm virtuous or moralistic. I think I just can't get pleasure from two people simultaneously. - Well now we're asking a different question. Because if my wife was like, no, no, no, be so hot, have sex with someone, okay, word. So that is very different. But I would never want to be in a relationship with two people. But men really do have a pull for novel sexual encounters. And especially a novel sexual encounter with a woman who finds me attractive, that would be rad. - Right. - Like super rad. Now the only reason I don't do that is because my marriage is my highest priority because that gives me way more than a bunch of novel sexual experiences would give me. But when I decided to propose to Lisa, I literally made a pros and cons list. And one of the cons was I'll never sleep with another woman again. And am I okay with that? That was not an easy like, yeah, I'm okay with that. I was like, ooh. - And you were super young. - Yeah. So that was a sacrifice. And so, and that's part of why our marriage has lasted because I've thought a lot about what will make this marriage worth that kind of sacrifice. - So can I ask like a lot of women come to me and I'm always a little bit done. And I've asked my partner, this is one and he doesn't really give him much, but some women will come to me and say to me, like, I've been, my husband just doesn't crave me anymore. He just doesn't want to sleep with me. I think it's me like I know all I ever see on movies and stuff is how the man always wants to have sex. But really I'm the one that's always initiating and I'm the one that has to do it. And I don't know what it is, why my husband just won't initiate or won't want to be with me sexually. What do you think? I always say that maybe you're not nurturing other needs of his outside of the sexual relationship. So I always wonder, I ask, have you cooked for him recently? Have you, that's their foreplay. Have you cooked for him? Have you made sure that his, you know, maybe his clothes are ready or whatever it is? Have you thought about his life before he has to think about it outside of the bedroom? That's usually my answer, but I could be wrong. So I was just wondering what you-- - You could also be right. - I could be right. - Like that to me is a huge part of it. - Yeah. - Also feeling emotionally connected. - Yeah. - And I really, really believe that men can be, of course we're complicated and all of that. And the wonderment of being in a long lasting marriage is to go way beyond the two things I'm about to say. - Yeah. - But honestly, honestly, if you don't get these two things right, you are dust. - Right. - You have to appreciate him and all the things that he does, like for real, for real. And you need to exude that. - Yeah. - If you exude appreciation, you work so hard. Thank you for everything you do. You make all these sacrifices. You do it for the family. 'Cause I can pretty much guarantee you that at least in the beginning, he did that. And the only reason he may no longer work with that in his mind is 'cause you made him feel unappreciated. - Yeah. - And so if you appreciate him for that, huge. Make him feel powerful. - Right. - Make him feel powerful.


How To Tell Your Partner They've Gotten Fat or Weak (01:03:24)

- And what about if he's not powerful? What if he's, yeah. - Oh God. - What about if he's- - Okay, so now one of my questions I wrote down, how do you tell your wife that she's gotten fat? So how do you tell your husband he's gotten weak? - Yeah, I guess here's the thing. I think with both whether you tell your wife she's gotten fat or you tell your husband he's weak, instead of highlighting she's fat or he's weak, you highlight the time where they were the opposite. And you might say something like, do you remember the days where you used to play rugby? Oh, you just came across so powerful. You should get back into that. I loved seeing you like that. Or it could be a thing like, oh, babe, do you remember you in that red dress and stuff that day we met and stuff? Oh, you looked amazing. You looked amazing. It doesn't even have to be I want you back to that 'cause some women are so hypersensitive. But the problem is when they don't tell her, they allow her to become a woman they're no longer attracted to. And you have to tell your wife. And I know I get a lot of backlash because I get told I'm fat shaming. But here's the thing. In my experience, when you gain a lot of weight, you start not liking yourself. And when you don't like yourself, you don't want to have sex with people. You don't want your husband to see you naked. You don't want him to touch you. So you end up just being okay with having very minimal physical contact. And then you drift apart. Whereas when you keep on top of yourself, you're looking forward to physically connecting. So I think it's really important to keep on top of your body whilst you're married. I know this, kids, I know it's difficult. But life is difficult. You just have to eat less. If you can't work out, at least eat less. - Yeah, or so eating less, yes, unfortunately is reality. But also what you eat is extraordinarily important. - Are you careful with what you? - I'm psychotic about this. So going back to part of the reason I want to do the show is to get people to understand you are having a biological experience. You must get sleep, sunlight, your diet needs to be right. And so look, the reality is men and women alike, you need to be attractive. You need to do things to be attractive to your spouse. You can never neglect that. You can't take it for granted. And by the way, so the thing I will add to what you said is, what I do is when my wife does something that I want more of, I lavish her with praise when she does it. And I learned very early. - What kind of things does she do that makes you like? - Oh my God, that list is so long. But it could be she wears something she knows, I love. And so I'm like, oh man, thank you. I love those pants so much, oh my God. You know how much I love those. Right, so rather than when she wears a shirt I don't like, I'm not like, ah, I hate that shirt. If she asked me if I liked it, I would tell her no. To your point about honesty. But so the list of things that my wife does for me that I want more of is very long. She's very thoughtful and very just today. She set out, I forgot to take chicken out for myself. And I had mentioned the other day that I wanted more avocado in my life. And so today there was a little sticky note with chicken thawing for me and an avocado that says I took this out for you. And so yeah, I would encourage that behavior. But that's easy stuff. The hard stuff is for women, physicality. And so with that, like, let's say that she's, my wife's always been so on top of her physique. But one thing that I do is I'm like, let's say she just had her 44th birthday. And I'm like, hear me when I say, woman, you're so hot at 44. Most people don't get a woman this attractive at 24. And so I wanna thank you. You didn't have to do that and most people don't. And I know that it's mostly for yourself, but I really appreciate it. Like it really means a lot to me. 'Cause I know one day we all turn to a bag of wrinkles. And so I've always reminded myself to appreciate your youth and beauty while I have it. And the fact that you've worked so hard to extend that like just objectively hot and attractive as long as you have, like I'm super grateful. - And I even encourage women to be grateful when their partner's faithful.


Why You Should Never Take These Things For Granted in Your Relationship (01:07:29)

And because the thing is a lot of women will say, but that's a given, we're married, of course he's supposed to be faithful. But unfortunately that's not enough course anymore. It's not- - Even if it is. It is not wise to take it for granted. - No, it's not wise. - It's never wise. - In fact, now you have something that's easy that you can point to all the time and like cherish your partner for that and be like, wow. It, for instance, in fact, I'm gonna say this to my wife later, thank you. Literally, if I opened my wife's phone and there was a file that said dick pics and it was four terabytes, I'd be like, wow, that's crazy. I wonder how four terabytes of dick pics got it. I wouldn't even think to me weird about it because she makes me feel like I'm the center of her universe. And because I feel that in my bones, it's not just a thing she says. Like I feel it in all the weird little small ways that a person can feel it. I feel it. And so what I'm really thanking her for, thank you for making me feel safe emotionally. Like you make me feel emotionally safe and that is an awesome feeling. - Yes, an amazing feeling. It allows you to then go on to do bigger and better things outside of the relationship. So many people are stunted because their partner doesn't make them feel safe. They can't progress at work. They can't fulfill their potential in the gym. They just can't fulfill their potential in other relationships because they're stunted. But once your partner makes you feel safe and secure, you can always go out and conquer the world as you guys literally have gone out and done. So amazing. - I read a quote once and said, the people that take the biggest risks have the most stable home life. Now things like that. So a lot of people have just heard me say that. But what I did when I heard that was I went home and I said, babe, I just heard this fact and it really made me think of us that the people that have the most stable home lives take the biggest risks. Thank you, 'cause this was when she was still a housewife. Thank you for doing what you do and allowing me to go take these big risks. And I mean, at one point when Quest was a huge question mark and nobody knew if it was gonna work, she let us put our house up as collateral. Like that's real shit. And so because both of us will routinely say in our darkest moments, as long as I have, for me it's her, as long as I have Lisa, everything else can go wrong and I'm good. And I really mean that. And because I feel that, it really does let me take these big chances. But going back to what started all this, you need to take the time to go thank your spouse for those things, to not take those things for granted, to really reward them for behavior you don't want. And now if I may light the comments on fire with rage and anger, you have to then punish the things that you don't want. - How would that, what would that look like? - You tell me. - Okay. - Or tell me that I'm crazy. - Yeah, do you know what I would say? It's punishing the things that you don't like. Maybe I've never really perfected this. What ends up happening in my personal experience, when I punish what I don't like, I end up creating a new wound because I'm so tactless with it. I'm so like, oh, I can get mean, I can get brutal. - Now do you think it's the nature of punishment or is it the delivery? - It's my insecurity that is so projected into what I'm saying that I, it doesn't become a fruitful conversation. So what would be something I don't like turns into I'm gonna put the relationship on the line now and I'm going to wound you because I feel wounded in this moment. And it's something I've gotten better at over the years, but through the partner being so secure, they kind of walk your hand through it, but it's not something I have ever perfected. So I don't, if I could learn from you, how would you punish what you don't like without causing any additional wounds? - Yeah, so this is one that is, you have to be extremely careful with.


Understanding Behavioral Patterns

How to address certain bad habits (01:11:01)

So rule number one, if you want to quote unquote punish because I'm known for using language, it's meant to grab people's attention. It's not like I'm being cruel or mean 'cause if you do that, you are done. So number one, if you wanna punish a behavior, you have to have made so many deposits, made them feel so loved and so secure that when you say, hey, when you do that thing, I don't like that. - Yeah. - And so let's just say that your partner likes to drink and you don't want them to drink anymore. This is not a problem. Lisa and I had malicious say. - Yeah. - I would say, hey, it's your life. You have to do you. The last thing I want is to be your parent. I'm not your parent, I'm your spouse. But when you're doing that thing, I'm not gonna be around you. So by all means do it, but just know, once you've sobered up, come back, we'll hang out. - Yeah. - And when your spouse cherishes quality time, now all of a sudden it's like, oh, when I go do this thing, they have set a clear boundary. They're not mean, they weren't cruel. They're not saying I'm a bad person for doing it. They're just saying, I don't like it and I don't wanna be around it. And so now it's my choice. I can go do it as much as I want, but they've been very clear. Now, I am doing that because I know you want time with me. And so it is a punishment, but I'm not being a dick. I'm not being cruel and I'm not making it up. I really don't like it. And I really don't wanna be around it. - So is it like you set your boundary rather than like, it's not literal, I'm punishing. Is it more just I'm setting a boundary? - It is punishment. It's just that boundaries are a way to create a penalty for that behavior that you don't want to see more of in a way that doesn't create a wound. - Yeah, because the thing is what you're describing is very effective boundaries. What boundaries basically are, it's not like, okay, you did this, bye, I'm never speaking to you. That's almost a self-sabotage, which is something I used to definitely indulge in. A boundary is simply, here's a behavior I don't like. If you're going to continue with it, I'm going to withdraw this particular behavior in response, but you're most welcome to be back in my life if you can abide by this particular rule. And so boundaries actually keep people in your world. They teach people how to love you effectively. So it's a semi-punishment, but more effectively, it's teaching your partner how to love you properly. - Yeah, it's interesting. People are going to hate the word punish, and I think they're going to struggle in life because they don't understand that you really are drawing that line as a penalty. - But the certain behaviors need a punishment. - Yes, and you have to be very careful. Remember, I'm saying this within the context. - What would a punishment look like? What could Lisa do to you that would look like a punishment? What could she withdraw? - That's a really good question. So time would be one for me, for sure. Let's say that if I'm working too much, and she's like, "I'm not going to enable that anymore." So instead of making sure that your food is out or whatever, you're going to have to do that yourself. And if you take time off, I'll cook for you. Oh, word. Now it's like, okay, that's fair. Like I get. So she's not rejecting me. She's not pushing me away, but she's saying, "Hey, this thing, I'll do one up. I'll make it even better. But I want to get the thing I want as well in exchange." Now, remember, we're going to communicate this to each other. So in fact, the thing I told my wife is the only trick I'm ever going to play on you is that I will always tell you what I'm doing. Now I'm telling you what I'm doing because I know it will make it work better because you don't feel like a chess piece being moved around. You don't feel like you're being manipulated. But by putting it out in the light, being completely honest with you and doing it in a way that's smart. So it's not creating a new wound. It's we call giving the keys to the kingdom. I'm telling you exactly how to be successful. I'm saying when you're not doing that thing, then I'm going to make time for you. And then P.S., going back to the reward side, if she then stopped doing the thing I didn't want, or let's just use me. So she wants me to work less. Okay, cool. So let's say that she said something like, either, "Hey, if you stop working early on a Wednesday night, I'm going to light some candles and it's going to be sexy time." Okay, interesting. 'Cause now that might be something that I would make a change in my pattern for because I want that thing. So now it's like, oh, whoa. Okay, now you've given me like a really cool incentive. And what she's, she's being honest. I want more of your time. I understand how important it is for you to accomplish. You've always said that the marriage is more important. Here's something that I think could really bond us.


Withdrawing quality time (01:15:55)

That's how we talk. So now-- - And I'm so sorry to interrupt, but in my, because I deal with people who suffer in relationships, I completely agree. And I'm in a very healthy state. So I understand that would work really well. But there are people that come to me and say, when I withdraw quality time from my partner and say, you know, I'm not going to spend time with you. Or even if I withdraw physically, it doesn't shake them. It doesn't bother them. In those cases, I do say that if your withdrawal doesn't seem to affect them, then unfortunately the relationship has lost its bond. There's no bond left anymore. It only works when two people want what you're, when the person wants what you're depriving them of. Would you say that's-- - I would, but I'll also send people back to your earlier statement. We have a duty to one another's wellbeing. And so the reason that this works is when, if my wife were to say, hey, I need more of your time. I'm not like, hey, you need to get on board. Like I told you I was going to work this much. I'm like, whoa, okay. So you feel disconnected. That's why we've made you the holder of the key. So when you tell me you need more time, I'm going to make more time. And so that's the part that I want to make sure that people are hearing. - It has to be the underlying thing. 'Cause if you don't have a duty to their wellbeing, why are you with them?


Values, Relationship and Human Flourishing (01:17:09)

- Well, I could answer that question. You're with them because you're getting something advantageous out of the relationship. But to your point that that can quickly become an egotistical, I think is the word you used. That you're satisfying an ego drive rather than a human flourishing drive. And so this is why, again, going back to values, you have to have a set of values that you live by. I live by my values, especially when they're inconvenient. - I find your value so in line with religion. So really, I'm sorry to bring it back to that, but sometimes I come across people who are more Muslim than I am or more religious than I am. And then I just, I always admire people who have found those values independently. How did you get there? - Okay, so I often get made fun of for something, which is that in business, I was trying to explain what makes me a good entrepreneur. And I came up with this whole thing and I handcrafted it and I wrote it down and I read it to my team and my team went, "Oh, that's the scientific method." And I was like, "Really?" Now you can make as much fun of me as you want for not knowing the scientific method. I didn't fucking study science. Or you can recognize that when people triangulate on the same thing from different disciplines that it probably means you've reached base truth. And the reason that a lot of my values probably sound like religion is because I found values that work towards human flourishing. And if I'm right, that religion is just memes meant to lead you to human flourishing, then if we didn't converge on things, one of us is almost certainly wrong. - But you know, like becoming so successful as a man and then being able to access, if you wanted to, you could just go live wherever you want, go any woman or anything like that. What made you be like, none of that tempts me, I'm good just succeeding and not, your women just isn't part of it. Because the red pill space, you're bombarded with men that are kind of taught that the moment you become successful, you have to have a plethora of women that have to look like this, they have to do that, and that's what makes you happy. What advice would you give to them? As a man who's made probably double than they'll ever, ever, ever make, this is not to put anybody down, but it's just, it's like you're freakishly successful, both of you, so yeah, what advice would you give to people who are from that mind frame? - The only thing that matters in life is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself. That's gonna be determined by the evolutionary algorithms running in your brain and the values that you choose to adopt in your life. And I know how I wanna feel, and so I've built a value system that I think will make me feel that way, and I update my values constantly when something isn't leading me to that path. And I believe in love. And I believe, I believe in, I use, whenever I use the word love to my wife, I always capitalize the L. And it is the thing before which I kneel. So I don't just mean love like romance. I mean love like when you're fucking vomiting or you're afraid, like I might be dying right now. There's one person you want with you. And when that person is your best friend and the person who you trust and the person you know will run through a fucking wall for you, life does not have anything better to offer you. Now, if I'm right about that, thinking of that person as your adversary, someone that you need to trick, is ludicrous. Now, hear me boys when I say, I used to show up on the first date with a custom written poem for that person and flowers. I was the caricature because I really believed that's what was going to work. And then I asked this guy that I knew was getting laid left, right, and center, and he was gorgeous, by the way. He's like the model, he's the guy that, I forget what they call him, Chad's, he was a Chad. He was broke, he was a Chad back then. - Chad's don't need to be rich, they just handsome. - Okay, perfect, so he was a Chad. And I was like, what is the key? And he said, you have to treat him, be an asshole. I think it was his exact quote. And I was like, this is fucking stupid. He's like, there's no way, this is so fucking cliche. And I know him, he's not an asshole. So I was like, okay, what does he actually mean? And I realized, oh, what he means is be confident. I remember in high school, there was this girl, I really liked her a lot. And we would be friends and she'd be into me. We'd start dating and then she wouldn't be into me anymore. And I remember asking her one time, why? And she's like, when we're just friends, you're confident. And when we start dating, and she probably wasn't this eloquent, but the punchline was, when we start dating, you fear losing me and you change. And so when he said be an asshole, and I put it together, I was like, it was like the sixth sense and I played my life back to what she said. And I was like, oh my God. So then I was like, okay, I'm gonna be me. And I'm never again going to have fear of loss with a woman. - Yeah, so be you with the willingness to walk away. Because here's the thing, I see a lot of the advice online is treat him mean, keep him keen.


Why You Should NOT Be An A***hole and Treat Women Badly (01:22:45)

And I know so many men that follow that advice. It's terrible advice. And the reason why it's such terrible advice is the reality is if you play this game of treat me and keep him keen, you're known to attract a broken woman. A secure, healthy woman is not attracted to men who treats her mean. She's attracted to a man who has the willingness to leave if she misbehaves too much. And I don't mean that as a child, just like-- - No, no, no, 100%. So you have to, one, everybody out there, you have to become worthy of the person that you wanna be with. So all 10 fingers pointed back at you, why do you not have the girlfriend that you want? Because you've not earned that person. But then it's not about being an asshole, it's not about treating the mean, but you absolutely must have enough confidence that you're like, this is how I want to be treated, this is how I want to feel. And hey, if I'm not your guy, or I don't make you feel the way you wanna feel, I fully respect that and I'm gonna walk away. You will be shocked if you treat somebody well and then call them up fucking real short if they treat you poorly. Like I remember I had a girlfriend and she started pulling away from me. And so I was like, okay, cool, I got it. And so I pulled back and she came up to me and she was like, at the time I was thinking about moving to New York, long story, but she comes up, she's like, you didn't even tell me that you were planning to move to New York. And I was like, you made it clear that you wanted more distance. And so I'm cool with that. I want you, for this to be comfortable for you, but don't expect me to lean in as you're leaning out. And she was like, oh, damn. - Yeah, super attractive. - Yeah, and the thing is that relationship ended. 'Cause it was like, word, like I just did not have a problem. And so if you can't, like if you have insecurity in yourself where you're like, as they're leaning away, you lean in, oh my God, you're gonna be in for a rough time. - Unfortunately, and this is what a lot of men do, particularly in this generation, the younger generation, they'll pick a woman with all the red flags because she might be physically their type. So she might be posting lots of pictures that they don't like online. She might be going out drinking a lot and all these things. And what they'll do is take her and then try and exert their dominance and be like, you can't go out, you can't post like this. But the reality is when she knows that you don't have the willingness to walk away, she labels you as insecure. The guy that she's saying is insecure and the red pill men will say, oh, we're not insecure, we're setting boundaries. No, no, no, secure men don't need to micromanage. They leave. If they see that you're doing a behavior that's terrible, they simply leave. Insecure men-- - I hope they communicate it. - I hope they communicate it. - So here's, going back to if my wife had a four terabytes of dick pics, I'm not insecure. I don't, one, I'm not a jealous person by nature, so I do have that advantage. - Have you ever been? Have you ever been? Never, oh, that's amazing. Very, very good. - That's, I mean, maybe when I was young. I don't have any memory of ever being jealous. - It's not your nature, yeah. - It's not my nature. But it's not like I couldn't get in that position if I were feeling insecure, but the thing is you want to, as someone does something that makes you feel insecure, you wanna speak up. So my wife and I have a rule that we speak in insecurities when we're arguing. So when somebody gets mad, their insecurities have been triggered. Of this I assure you. And so now it's a game of how quickly can you admit that you're insecure. Now if you're with somebody that will weaponize your insecurities, leave. So my wife and I have a rule. You never, and I mean never, I don't care how mad you are, I don't even care what that person does to you. My wife could have an affair with an entire football team. And I will never be cruel to her. This is not who I wanna be. I'll break up with her. I will never speak to her again. - Are you like that in general with other people outside of the relationship? - I have a huge belief. You need to be who you are in divorce and in marriage. There's a quote that I heard that I have let really dominate how I am in life, not just in my marriage, but that you don't divorce the same person that you marry, which tells me that people code switch. And I don't fucking play that game. I am who I am. - Amazing. - And, but again, that's all for me. - In general, like you don't speak mean to people. Like say if you're fighting with your mom or your sister or something like that, you wouldn't be, you don't step out of line and stuff. - I can be very aggressive. Let me be very clear. There are people who would say that I have been mean, but if you ask them to repeat what I said, you'd probably characterize it as aggressive because I can be very aggressive. And what I mean by that, 'cause I'm not a yeller, I don't scream, but I will boil things down to its simplest thing.


Don't Get Mean (01:27:15)

And that can often make people very uncomfortable when I'm like, so you're saying X, Y, Z. And when you unvarnish something, you can make people very, very, very uncomfortable. But- - But in fights with visa, it will never get cruel. - No, never, literally never. 'Cause you can't come back from that. - Yeah, it's true. - And so this is why people have got to build these, you have to build your value system before you get into the relationship. - Yeah. And what advice would you give to people who can't, who get so anxious and then they get mean and stuff like that? What do you usually tell them? - That's a you problem. - It definitely is a you problem because there's nothing that can't be communicated effectively and calmly. If you are going hostile, chances are you've picked up a fighting system from your parents that involved hurting, that involved going below the belt, and then you're bringing that into your relationship and unfortunately punishing them for a system that they didn't help create in you. So if you have that nature, try your best to work on it, but also try not to partner up with somebody who also does that because then it turns physical at some point. Yeah, unfortunately- - That has to be completely awkward. - Yeah, it does. - This is, people have got to decide what kind of person do you want to be. Not only think about it vaguely, write it down. What are your values? Like Lisa told me at the beginning of our relationship, if you ever cheat on me or beat me, I'm gone. And she was like hard line, no second chances, no discussion, gone. And knowing how stubborn she is, that would be that. And so I'm just like, first of all, I'm not drawn to either of those, but I was just like, okay, yep, totally understood. But also- - What were your two breakers with her? - I never had like big things like that, but cheating would be a deal breaker. If she ever cheated on me, that'd be the end of the story. - Would you say if she hits you, would you, if a woman hit you, would you leave? I know and it's unfortunate. I actually recommend men to draw a line when it comes to physical hitting. - Interesting. - But they usually don't. - So here is how I would think about that. So one, I wanna be very thoughtful because like that, the reason I wouldn't is I don't have an ounce of fear with my wife. If I was scared of her and no judgment, if I was scared of her, then it might be very different because I would not stay in a relationship where I was afraid of the other person. - I have a lot of men that have physically abusive wives that hit them and stuff. - Let me be very clear. Hit me once doesn't mean I'm going to divorce you. Hit me twice, we have a fucking problem. - We have a problem and it's not because it's- - Because we will have talked about that shit. - Yeah, and the thing is it's not because of the pain. Of course, you can handle that, but there's a level of disrespect and an emotional volatility in people that hit. And we almost give women a pass with it. And I can imagine once in a blue moon, something she over erupted, and I can imagine a pass with that. But some women do it as a form of conflict resolution. And a lot of men don't speak up about it, but I do think- - That's crazy. - Yeah, that's crazy, isn't it? - I would never put up with that for the emotional reason that you are out of control. - You're just not ready for a relationship. It's just, you can't regulate yourself. - Yeah, and self-regulation is very much, that is a tenet in my life. I would not be with a woman that cannot emotionally regulate. - Yeah, and they hit. And it's something that's under-spoken about, but it is, again, it's part of the, when I talked about narcissistic women, it's because we've tilted it where women are automatic victims and sometimes they are the narcissist in the relationship. I'll always have women come to me for therapy and they'll say my ex was a narcissist. And when you read her story, it might be that she was cheating on her husband with a guy and saying that her husband's a narcissist or the guy that she's cheating with is a narcissist. And their perception of what a narcissist looks like is so skewed because they're so holding onto the idea that they're a victim in the relationship, they just wanna find a reason. So I do think that if you are with a woman who uses that word a lot, and a woman that uses physical aggression, be mindful, yeah. Just because it doesn't hurt doesn't mean it's not a deal breaker. - Yeah, it's very interesting. People-- - Unfortunately. - People need to pursue emotional stability. One of the things that I think has made Lisa and I's relationship work so well is she has a slightly more masculine temperament than most women and I have a slightly more feminine temperament than most guys. And so that brings us both closer to the middle, which really, really works. - Yeah, to understand each other better. - Very much, and we just, she is very emotionally regulated, does not swing wildly with her cycle.


People Selection Is Everything (01:31:56)

And so it makes her far more predictable for me. And then I'm hyper communicative, I'm very in touch with my emotions, I have no problem speaking about my insecurities. So things like that certainly help. But one thing you've been very clear about is that people selection is really everything. How do we get selection right? - Unfortunately, and sometimes things that are out of their control, but one good indicator is their upbringing. And that doesn't mean it has to be perfect. But there was an element of some stability, some level of emotional stability. Now when it's totally, totally chaotic, unfortunately, and I always say to men that your competition is not other men, it's her childhood. If it's totally chaotic, no matter how much stability you provide her, she'll find it very, very difficult to settle into that stable relationship. But if there was, of course there's ups and downs, very few people escape childhood without some trauma. But if it was on the whole, she understood that love existed and connection was always there, well how many should appreciate those things about you? But when it's so chaotic, unfortunately, there's so much work to undo. And if she hasn't started it, you can't finish it. So I recommend that looking for somebody with some level of emotional regulation is really important. But the other thing about selection is recognizing what you consider a deal breaker. If I consider sexual promiscuity a deal breaker and I'm with a partner who's really addicted to pornography, really wants to experiment, so on and so forth, there's nothing, no amount of love I can give them that will change their core needs and desires. And I shouldn't expect that. I shouldn't expect him to contort himself to fit my needs. So you look at what your deal breakers are. And if she or he is displaying them, don't be narcissistic enough to think that your love is enough to undo it. Unfortunately, they're allowed to be the person they wanna be. You're allowed to be the person you wanna be. But almost watching all the red flags and going for it anyway, it's masochism. You're gonna end up micromanaging. You're gonna end up like holding them by the throat, getting them to behave, when really they should be allowed to be the person that they showed you they were from the beginning. So selecting according to your own deal breakers is really important. - If somebody had a bad childhood, are they just damaged goods? - No, no, they're definitely not damaged goods. But one thing I would say is we underestimate the impact, particularly about the person that comes from a damaged childhood. They seem to think that it's fine, it's not. But if they recognize that they have areas to work on and they have abandonment wounds, they are easy to be with. But if there's somebody who's in denial about that and genuinely believe that you're the cause of their emotional pain, unfortunately, no matter what you do, that emotional pain, that wound that predates you is always gonna be inflamed. And they're always gonna blame and expect you to soothe them. So it's always good to be with somebody who might, even if they've got a damaged childhood, recognizes that damage, that then you're onto a healthy relationship. - How do you advise people to identify and deal with their insecurities? - Recognize that are you having a disproportionate reaction to the event. If, for example, my partner hasn't replied to my message and I'm starting to get really panicked and really angry and so on and so on and really hostile, I'm having a disproportionate reaction. So that's an insight into there's an insecurity there. I'm making assumptions and I'm causing myself emotional pain. So how you recognize it is your disproportionate reaction and then how you cope with it is either soothing yourself or communicating with your partner and letting them know that you're having a disproportionate reaction and allowing them to soothe you. But just simply reacting to your emotions and then expecting and causing more chaos is only gonna exacerbate your existing insecurities, unfortunately. And that's why having a healthy partner is so important because they recognize that you have these issues and they offer you soothing. But having an avoidant partner will see that your insecurities as a you problem and then just not want anything to do with your issues. And then you end up just driving yourself insane. So it's very difficult. - My wife Lisa struggled profoundly with her gut health and experienced debilitating stomach pain. So I focused my energy on learning everything I could about the human gut. Viome is on the cutting edge of this growing area of study with their at-home gut intelligence test. Just two to three weeks after sending in your sample, you can see your results on 20 integrative health tests that measure your inflammatory activity, metabolic fitness and the health of your gut lining. As a special offer to my viewers, Viome is offering $110 off your test. Just go to tryviome.com/impact and use code IMPACT to get the $110 off. Talk to me about gender roles.


Perceptions On Gender Roles

What does it mean for a woman to submit to a man (01:36:50)

One of the reasons that I think you speak so well in this moment is that you do have a more traditional lean, which I think makes relationships way easier. What are the roles and how strictly should people adhere to them if they wanna be successful? - I think it's just recognizing our evolution. The reality is women were designed, one of the reasons why women can move on quickly from heartbreak and relationships and go from one man to another is in evolutionary times, if they lost their partner to war or to predators or whatever it is, they'd have to find another one. Even if they shared him with another bunch of women, they would have to do that, otherwise they die. So we have these instincts in us that we can't always explain. Now, a woman's instinct is always to be somewhat looked after it doesn't even have to be financial, but just knowing that a man looks after that could mean, did you get home safe? Was work okay? Did you get on your flight okay? Just checking in. Women really value that, that checking in, whether it's financial investment or emotional investment, they need it in order to feel safe. For a man, the nurturing is really important for him. That nurture is their way of understanding you appreciate them. When you nurture them, they take it to mean you love and appreciate me. When you don't nurture them, they take it to mean that I'm an ATM here and no one cares about me. So they get drastic with their responses. So I would say that the emotional and financial investment is what women generally like to look for and the appreciation and nurture is what men tend to look for. - Okay, so a lot of women are having a seizure over that right now. Let me ask, should a woman submit to a man's leadership? - I think that when you meet a man who is so, is such a safe bet and so secure, submission is a natural consequence. Now, if you refuse to do that because you don't see, like it's just goes against everything, the narrative you've been taught, you're depriving yourself of a really beautiful relationship. I'm not saying submit to every man, but a good man who cares about your wellbeing, you'd be a fool not to submit to him. You'd be a fool to argue with him. You'd be missing out on a great connection simply because you wanna maintain your independence, but independence is overrated. - Give me details on what it means to submit. Can a woman be a fully actualized person, completely her own woman, driven boss babe and still submit to somebody's leadership or does that mentality break the potential relationship? - It's a little bit harder. I would say that it's a little bit harder because you get so used to your own authority when you are independent, but I would say is delegation. You might wanna have a really great career outside and be your own boss, but at home, there's certain decisions that you allow him to lead on and you allow him to lead on because you trust his leadership and giving him that authority is because he's earned it through trust, love and leadership. You can trust his authority. You don't need to have a say in every single thing in life. Sometimes you should just relax and if you are that boss babe, don't you want some areas of your life where you don't have to think and somebody else can just lead is good for you, is recharging your batteries. So I would say that if you are really successful, find areas where you don't have to think. It might be when he plans a holiday or when he chooses where to live or something like that. Instead of fighting that, embrace that as a way of your off period. You don't have to think, you can relax and see it as in a positive rather than negative. - Okay, so how does a modern woman who is very driven, very sharp, she is working, she realizes, hey, I'm really good at this decision making thing. Why would she come home and submit to somebody else's leadership? Why not just maintain the leadership role? - Because she shouldn't be with somebody unless she, if she's really astute at decision making, she would have chosen a partner that she can delegate decisions to. If you're really good at decision making as a woman and you're really successful and you really know your shit, you don't be with a man that doesn't. That suggests that there's a hole in your self esteem if you've chosen a man that you don't truly see as effective decision makers yourself. So if you are all of those things, then your partner selection should have been also great, so great that there are parts that you can just delegate and then allow him to lead on. - Now, are you saying that women are hardwired 'cause we both have the North Star of human flourishing. So are you saying that women will flourish more if they get, no matter how powerful they are, if they get with a man that is, they are the right person to lead in the family life? I'm not sure where you draw that line. - Well, the thing is, if you really wanna flourish, choose a man who can put blindfolds on you and you trust where he's going. Because essentially there's gonna come a time, either through kids or through age, where you tire yourself out from being that boss babe because you're not designed for it. We're not always designed for it. It's beautiful, it's engaging. - Not always designed for it or not designed for it? - I think we're not fully, I think there's a time where we are designed for it when we're young and we have the energy or when we've got potential, but at some stage in our life, we get to the point where we retire earlier. And again, it's evolutionary. We're not actually designed to be so driven all the time, all day, every day. We're actually designed to be looked after and kept safe. So as much as you might have all this energy now, at least choose somebody for when you slow down and you take your foot off the pedal, he could take the steering wheel. And if you haven't chosen that, you've effectively adopted a son that you didn't choose. - Interesting, okay, so let's keep going down this road. So I hear you saying that this is really just an energy question. Is it an energy question or is it a hard wiring question in that a woman who, and for the conversation, we will assume the man is worthy. You see him as an incredible person. So it's not like you're submitting to a bozo. So you found a guy, he's a worthy leader. It's a word. Are you saying that, no, the only time you need to submit is when you get tired, go do your thing, and then at some point later down the road, submit just because you get tired of doing it. Or are you saying that this is really the result of evolution and evolution has left women in a psychological position where they will actually be happier if they submit to a worthy man's leadership? - Yeah, I think it's the latter. I think you would genuinely be happier and you'll reserve more energy and fuel if you submit to a man who's worthy of submission from early rather than one day burning out and then thinking, now I want a man to save me because I'm so exhausted and tired. And I meet girls when they turn 33 onwards, they're just so tired of doing everything themselves. And they'll say to me, I am just tired of even carrying my grocery bags from the car into the house. I'm so tired of that. I know it's a mall, but I just am so tired of it. Whereas when if you pick somebody and you delegate and you submit as you're going along, what will happen is you have more energy throughout life. They give you that. That's what a man should be. He shouldn't be a burden. He should be somebody that you look forward to submitting to because you trust their process, you trust their vision. And if you haven't found that, then you're going to suffer. - So why would it be that evolution would leave women in a situation where they don't wanna have to lead all the time, they actually want to outsource a lot of the decision-making to a man.


Why being with a man relieves women of decision fatigue (01:44:39)

Why would that be? What is the reward? Has evolution given them a reward or sorry? - Children, what happens is, and that's why baby brain is a real thing. Women that will say, I've got baby brain. What they mean is once they become a mother, their brain is absorbed by becoming a mother. They literally start seeing their life through the lens of their baby. So they'll walk into a room and be able to spot the danger and say, that's dangerous. So they stop being able to think about themselves and they stop being able to think outside of the lens of a baby. So if they don't have a man that they can rely on, they not only have to look after the baby 24/7, but then they have to worry about him and they just get overwhelmed. Whereas when you have that secure man and you've submitted that you can submit to, when you go into baby zone, it doesn't matter. The ship is still sailing. He's got everything else covered. But when you don't, you then have to put your feet on both pedals and you're gonna be overwhelmed. So because we're designed to be mothers, we're designed to have somebody that we can submit to when we become preoccupied with the child. - Okay, so in a modern context, when women can push that off, off, off, off, off, off, off, why not, why submit if you never plan to have kids? - Because you still run out of energy at some stage. At some stage in our life, we don't produce the same endorphins and stuff at some stage or another. And also, what joy is there from being completely independent? Isn't life more beautiful when you share it and depend on one another? We're designed to be in tribes-- - It is, but I wanna stay close to this idea of submitting to leadership. So for a, well, so let me ask a slightly different question. Then would the optimal life strategy for a woman be to be boss babe mode until, call it roughly 30 to 35? So be with a guy that does what you say during those years, and then no, there's gonna be a natural break somewhere in there, or maybe I just had a series of relationships, and now at 30 to 35, I'm gonna settle down, I'm gonna find a man that is worthy of submitting to, and I'm really, submitting probably is a word I don't like, I'm translating from them. I don't like that word, but I'm gonna be able to outsource some of the decision-making so I can focus on my kids. - I think a lot of women do do that, where they be with a man that they can control and then switch it up for a man that they want to take control from. I think the worst thing you can do is be with a man that you can control. - Even before you have a baby. - Even before you have a baby, because it gets you into the habit of seeing men as a nuisance rather than an addition to your life. When you have a man that you can control, what happens is you end up raising him. He activates your maternal instinct rather than your sexual instinct. So you end up having to raise him, having to check if he's there, and so on and so forth. He becomes a burden to your life, and therefore you start to glorify singlehood. Whereas when you are with a man that you don't control, and he actually helps control you, you see the beauty in a relationship. So I think when I meet women who are with men that they control, especially in marriages, they become disrespectful to him. They speak to him badly.


How to Activate a Woman Sexually? (01:47:57)

They become a woman they don't like. Whereas when they're with a man that takes leadership, they actually remain respectful. They remain kind. They remain in awe of their partner for a long time. So I don't recommend ever being with a man that you can control. You become a woman that you don't like, unfortunately. - Very interesting. Okay, so if being with a man that you can control activates your mother instincts, what activates a woman's sexual instincts? - Being with a man that removes her fears. And what I mean by that is physical fears, like you're scared of other people, whatever, if that exists, financial fears, emotional fears. When you're with a man that removes fears and replaces it with safety and connection and mutual respect, then what happens is it activates your sexual desires. Like your mom says, you can only orgasm when you trust. So when he takes away your fears, you can develop trust. - You might wrangle this into fears, but I believe very strongly that there's one more piece of the equation if you really wanna activate a woman sexually, and that is you have to make her feel beautiful. - Yeah, I agree. I really agree. I genuinely think that a lot of women, when they deny a man sex, it's really because they haven't felt beautiful in so long. So they think that if you don't find me beautiful, what is the point? Women, again, I know I keep using the word narcissistic when it comes to women, but our sexual experience is narcissistic. How much we enjoy it is entirely based with how you make us feel, how beautiful and loved you make us feel. And this is one of the reasons why I know I keep going back to pornography. I encourage men never to watch pornography when they're growing up, when they're young, because what happens is they develop a dysfunction, erectile dysfunction, and when a remote woman doesn't feel attractive, she can never desire you again. If a man can't keep his erection in the first couple of times, if they haven't established safety and they haven't got their loving relationship, but first couple of times he can't keep an erection, that woman cannot sexually desire you again, 'cause you can make her feel so ugly in that moment, even though it's got nothing to do with you. Even though it might have nothing to do, the man's inability to perform may have nothing to do with me, but women take it so personal, so personal, and they'll never desire him again, ever. Whereas another man who makes her feel like a goddess, she will desire him again and again. So it's in your best interest to not worry about what move or what angle or whatever, just stroke her ego in that moment, honestly. - Mic drop on that. All right, that's very interesting. There's no universe in which you don't get hate from women on some of this stuff. What do they say and with love in your heart, because of course, what do they say, and then with love in your heart, what do you say back to them? - I struggle to find the love in my heart a lot of the times, if I'm very honest, but what I would say is usually it goes straight to appearance. Appearance is usually the first go-to. - So they don't even attack your argument. They're just like- - No, it's quicker and easier to attack my appearance. They'll call me ugly, they'll say that it's all makeup, and if they don't wanna say that, they'll say it's all surgery and all this nonsense. So they'll usually go to appearance. Then if they don't wanna sound too bitter, because going for someone's appearance it sounds a bit too obvious, then they might go for your qualifications, and they might say, oh, but psychology's a shit degree anyway, and it's not proper qualified, it's not this, it's not that. So they'll go for that. And then final, and kind of a piece, is they'll go for my chastity. So they'll say, I bet she's a slut, I bet she's an escort. So it usually goes in that order. So they either attack you physically or academically, or they attack you sexually. So usually in that order. - So they're not, 'cause what I was hoping, they were gonna give a counter argument. - Very rare that I find that. It's very rare that I'll find a woman that will actually argue against what I'm saying. They'll make it completely personalized. And this is something I wasn't prepared for when you go on social media. When you go on social media as maybe an influencer or somebody who's promoting makeup and beauty and stuff, you're very prepared for your appearance to be judged because you went on it for that. I had zero idea that that would be the focus. So what happens usually when I say a message that they don't agree with, it goes straight to my appearance. It bypasses the message and goes straight to my appearance or my sexuality or something along those lines and to kind of lower my status as a woman. - Wow, that's very interesting. Okay, I'm gonna try to channel what I think would be- - A more effective argument.


An effective argument for Roya (01:52:41)

- Somebody that's really going to address the idea instead of the ad hominem attack of just trying to make out like you're a bad person. Okay, so if I were talking to my daughter, I have to step outside of my own belief system for a second. So I'm gonna say what I think. I'm gonna steel man the argument and then we can get into what I actually believe. So I want to make sure that my daughter can fully embrace autonomy, that she learns to think for herself, that she doesn't turn to anybody, that she realizes we don't live on the savanna anymore. That yes, there are gonna be some evolutionary wins at your back, but you don't need to be a slave to your instincts. And I want you to become whoever you want to become. And you can become anybody. There are women that have become astronauts. There are women that have become rock stars. There are women that become prime ministers and presidents and soldiers. There is nothing you can't do. And you are as smart as a man. The intelligence distribution is such that, I mean, I know the literal intelligence distribution is such that there are more men at the extreme. So you have more brilliant men, but there are more moronic men. So you're gonna be smarter than a lot, a lot of men. And so like really push yourself. If you wanna be a mathematician, be a mathematician. If you wanna go into particle physics, go into particle physics. And you'll find somebody that you can love and you'll find somebody that loves you. And if they wanna stay at home and take care of the kids, that is absolutely fine. And yeah, just the greatest joy in life is being who you really are. - I would say that, but I just think genuinely speaking, I think worst case scenario, you wanna be who you are, but at least pick someone that if you needed to submit to, you could, even if you never need to, you might never need to pull on that dial and you might forever be. - And he's gonna pull you honey in, I'm speaking to my daughter, not calling you honey. We wanna make that very clear. My young darling, that is, he's gonna, he may steal your dream and you'll end up supporting his dream. And it's better to find somebody that supports you. - Yeah, I agree. I agree. - Do you? - Yeah, no, I do agree because the thing is I wouldn't be able to do what I do if I didn't have that. And so I definitely agree that having somebody, but here's the thing, I wouldn't like, what I mean by having someone you could submit to, I wouldn't submit to a man that's suppressing my dreams and suppressing my potential because he obviously doesn't know me and doesn't know my uniqueness or appreciates it. So I choose somebody I would personally submit to. When people hear the word submit, they think of a tyrannical leader telling you what you can and can't do. What I mean by that is you choose somebody who you're so aligned to you and somebody you're so respect and you respect each other that if you needed to blindfold yourself, you would trust him with where to go. And if you don't find that, why would you submit? Of course not. But when I say submit, I don't just mean pick a man and listen to him. I mean, have a man that genuinely sees who you are, understands what's best for you and therefore will guide you in the right direction. And if you need him to take the wheel, he will. That's usually what I mean by that. - Yeah, okay. So now I'll see if I can articulate my point in a way.


For incredible power in any relationship, follow this script (01:56:19)

So normally I would be inflammatory right now 'cause I find it so fun to just be blunt. Okay, remember that I'm married to a woman that I respect. An incredible amount. But my advice to women is, I believe there is enough evolutionary pressure at your back and enough evolutionary pressure at men's backs that for a husband and wife to be a team against the world and for you both to accomplish what you want to accomplish, the following dynamic will work best given that 50% of you is unchangeable. And that is, I think, hypergamy, which is the female tendency to date across or up is a very real thing. And that women are very, just evolutionarily, you have an algorithm in your mind that will make you very comfortable with a man that is equal to you in all things or above you. But you will not be satisfied in a relationship where the man is below you. And I think that men will be happiest 'cause I actually don't know what I think about women. I think, I don't yet know, and maybe as I say this out loud, I'll have an opinion come to my mind. Men, I think, will be at their best in the relationship if they feel powerful. And they're not going to feel powerful if you're better than them at a lot of traditionally masculine things, leadership being the easiest one to peg to. - They actually produce more cortisol in relationships with women that earn more than them or take more dominance. So they literally experience more stress biologically and biochemically, which actually decreases their testosterone so they have less sexual desire and more stress when they're around a woman who's more successful than them. Is that weird? - It is not weird at all to me. - Yeah, actually. - It's fascinating, but that rings so true.


The biggest mistake men make (from a woman's perspective) (01:58:15)

And there's a great quote, of course, said by a man, but everything is about sex except sex, that's about power. And the fascinating thing about when you were talking about a woman will not want to be with you if in those critical early moments, you don't get an erection because she internalizes that as you're not attracted to me. And I remember hearing once that women don't like photos of a flaccid penis, but that while they, of course, do not, everybody listening, they do not want you to send them dick pics of an erect penis. - No, it's the worst thing on the planet. - But if they have to encounter a penis, they are far more interested in one that's erect. And so-- - That's so funny, yeah. - From a sexual vantage point, because it means you find me desirable. - Right. - So flip that now, and for the guy, if he's not getting an erection, he doesn't feel powerful. This, I assure you. And something is going wrong where he's in his own head, as he would probably say. He's worried about something at work. - Is there some element of it to do with the woman? - It could, but there could be a thousand, oh, I've said this before on camera, I will say it again. The first time, probably not the only time, but I will admit I am blessed 'cause I stay in shape and my life is very attractive. There are precious few times where I have a hard time maintaining an erection, but it has happened. The first time it happened was so funny that it wasn't funny at the time, but in the retelling it's funny. So poor at the time, living in an apartment with thin walls, and the guy above us, we were having this really hot, steamy moment, like in a random part of the house, and, or apartment, and we were going at it, going very well. And the guy upstairs sounds like he's dying of emphysema. I mean, he is just hacking up a lung, and he's just coughing, and it's that wet, gross, and so I'm just slowly losing, there was no music, oh God, it was so horrible. And so that had nothing to do with my wife. But I didn't feel powerful, I'm in my own head, he sounds like he's dying, it's just really fucking gross.


Achieving Personal Growth

Warning: If you shoot above your range, you'll always suffer (02:00:18)

- There's a lot going on. - So yeah, I was just like, oh God. And so once you're in that zone, now it had nothing to do with her, but that is when you sort of break that spell, and you're not feeling confident, you're not feeling sexy, you're not feeling powerful, then you're in real trouble. So that is, there can be a whole host of reasons why you end up in trouble with that. So anyway, getting back to the initial thing, I think that if for the man and woman to work together, I don't necessarily know that the woman needs to submit, but the guy needs to lead. But I have a real strong belief in life, never ask someone to slow down so you can lead. Which means the guy has actually got to be the right person to lead. - Yeah, that's it. - And so, and this is what I hold myself accountable to my marriage, my wife is fucking amazing. She's the best business partner I've ever had. She's unbelievable. She has an incredible business mind, which I think took us both by surprise. We were like, whoa, you're really good at this. And so that's been amazing. But it also made me realize, yo, I've got to step up my game because I've got to outperform. And because I want to be the right person to lead. Now, hey everybody, public service announcement, leadership is about knowing when to follow. And so there are times where my wife is just better at that kind of decision making, and so I'll be like, you're better at this than I am. So saying that you're the quote unquote leader does not mean that you're an idiot and you don't know when to listen to the other person. And so a good leader also knows when to follow. But that really does not mean that we lead equal percentage of the time. And I would say this in front of my wife, I would give her every opportunity to say that I'm not being honest, trust me, she agrees. And so my wife, the thing she's always said is, I want to be as powerful as humanly possible. And I want you to be so powerful that I can be small in your arms. And I was like, homie, you get me. Like that's the juice. Because if you couldn't authentically make me feel like that, and if I didn't authentically make you feel like that, this wouldn't work. And so this is where I have empathy for the Red Pill community, all of this shit is complicated. It is very hard. - I think, you know when you shoot above your range when it comes to a woman, either you're choosing somebody physically out of your league or intellectually out of your league, you always suffer as a man. And I know that they kind of think, no, no, it's okay to be with a woman that's 10 times more beautiful than you, or it's okay to be with a woman who's more successful, whatever, you can fix it. Unfortunately, what will happen is she will use what she has above you to start losing respect for you sometimes. So it's always, like you said, if you have to slow, if you have to get some people to slow down for you to lead, it's a recipe for disaster. So it's always better to just shoot within your range. Find a woman that you are naturally able to lead rather than picking whoever you want and forcing her to follow your leadership. It won't work that way. Just pick within your range. - What I love about the way that you talk about this is it is hyper practical. And that is very much what I want for people. So I'm not saying it's good or bad that it is this way, but it is this way. - It is this way. If you're gonna choose a woman that's 20 times prettier than you are handsome, unfortunately, she'll feel irreplaceable and she might just start disrespecting you. Whereas when you pick somebody on the same level as you, what will happen is you both feel irreplaceable to each other because you match each other. So I meet so many men that are being abused by women and they're staying there because she's so beautiful, but she's abusing him because she wants to know because he's not going anywhere. - He also does not respect himself, which is why he tolerates that.


Shoot Within Your Range (02:04:07)

- Yeah, and so that's why I just think shoot within your range. And the problem with today's world is people are losing sight of what their range is, whether it's financial or physical. - Interesting, why? - Because of the materialistic or the kind of physical attributes of men and women are being highlighted on social media. So we think-- - How does it make them lose sight of their own range? - Because they think it's accessible. It's far more accessible than it is. - Just because they see it. - Because they see it. When we see something, we assume it's somewhat within our range. So men are seeing beautiful women all day, every day, and they're thinking it's more accessible. And when they're not getting it, they're thinking, oh, okay, I just need to make more money. But if you have to rely on something external to access that, that means it's not actually for you. It's not actually joined for you, yeah? - I don't know about that. - Do you think so? I think if I had to get a few surgeries to get the right guy for me, are we not right for each other? And similarly, if a man had to make a couple of thousands, a couple of million to access me, he himself is not right for me. - Yes. So do I mean, yes. Here, what you're saying is very complex. In that, if I needed to, if I really wanted you, and you would have nothing to do with me, and I go make a couple more million, and I come back and now you want me, bad news bears. Avoid, avoid, avoid. But if you go make a couple million, different women will now be in your league. That's just real. And ladies, this is not me encouraging you to get plastic surgery. In fact, I've talked to my wife. My wife used to be insecure about her nose, which she has talked openly about. I love that fucking nose. So I did not want her, I would never have wanted her to get surgery. It's not like she was contemplating it or anything, but when she was a kid, she did. And when she brought that up to me, I was like, "Oh my God, I love your nose." But if she had gotten a nose job when she was a kid, more guys probably would have been attracted to her. So it's like, that's real. - Yeah, I get it. But I also think that what you're compatible with has to be in line with your actual self-esteem, not your extrinsic value. So I do think that, yes, let's say for example, I get a bunch of surgery and stuff like that, Sathya is still Sathya. She has a level of confidence and self-esteem that is pretty much stable. Now I might end up, let's say I get loads of surgery and I end up being with, I don't know, Chris Brown. The reality is the real me is incompatible with him. And I won't know how to navigate that kind of man. I'll feel insecure in his presence. I'll feel like every woman is my competition because the next girl with more surgery can attract him. I won't feel like I attracted him. I felt like something external attracted him, which is easily replaceable. Similarly, if you have to make a couple of million to get hold of that Pamela Anderson kind of woman, unfortunately what that means is you become replaceable. All it takes is somebody else with that money. The real you and the real person that you attract will eventually become irreplaceable if you use internal ingredients to attract a partner. - That's very interesting. So I think the base assumption in that, that I may not a hundred percent agree with is, or the reality is more complicated, is that if you, I'll stick to the male side because maybe-- - I get the male side a little bit more because here's the thing, I couldn't be attracted to a man who is not successful only because the qualities it takes to be unsuccessful in this day and age, you have to be relatively lazy and you have to be, 'cause there's so many opportunities to education or to online marketing or something like that. So I don't like the traits that keep a man unsuccessful.


Traits of a Successful Man (02:07:27)

I like the traits of a successful man. But reality is the more a woman is physically attracted to you, the more she makes access to her easy. The more physically attracted she is to you, access becomes easy. The less attractive to you, the more barriers become available. So that's why I think that when she's placing barriers there, there's a lack of physical attraction. So you are overcoming physical attraction to access her and then you run the risk of her being physically unfaithful. So that's why I don't recommend it. - Yeah, that's so interesting. And I've heard you say that rich men get cheated on more. - More, far more. - That's so interesting. Okay, we'll get to that in a second. So here's to your point, the reason that I think that the reality is slightly more complicated, certainly for guys, maybe for women, is that when, like I, nobody expected me to do well. My mother, when I left for college, quietly assumed I was going to fail. - Did you come from money? - No, definitely not. So we were on the border between middle-class and lower middle-class. - Okay, you had access to education? - Public. - Public, okay. - Yeah. - And you went on to college? - On Stellar. Yes, I did. - Okay, amazing. - And took out loans and all that good stuff. But I didn't have discipline. And so I think there's a, you have to have ambition, discipline, and intellect, unfortunately. I wish that wasn't part of the equation, but it is. And if you have those three things, then you've got a chance to be successful. But nobody knows if you can develop drive. And so I had ambition and thankfully I had intellect that maybe hadn't fully developed yet. But no one was sure if I would develop drive. And I didn't develop drive until after I asked Lisa to marry me. She said yes. And then I started becoming very ashamed of myself because I was laying in bed four to five hours a day while she went to work. And my only job was to make her a sandwich at lunch. And half the time I was like scrambling to have it made by the time she got there and I wasn't getting dressed or doing my hair and she was mortified. So anyway, finally one day I'm like, oh my God, I'm telling, I promised her dad I would make her rich one day. I told her I'm gonna make her rich one day and nothing I'm doing is actually pointed in that direction. And that shame, that self-loathing was enough to get me moving. Then once I developed the discipline, then I was like, okay, now I can fucking do anything I want. It was absolutely incredible. And so I became a person that was worthy of her respect. And worthy of my own respect, quite frankly. And so that really made me a different person. - An attractive person. - Yeah, and so it is a very complicated thing because, so we got married young and this is something that I'm sad is very uncommon now. But I don't know who I would be if I hadn't met her. And here, this is another reason why I think more traditional roles are very useful. So when Lisa and I got together, she was very traditional. She grew up in a traditional household. Her family was Greek. Her dad told her, yeah, you can go study filmmaking or whatever you want 'cause you're, and he didn't mean this in a derogatory way. The greatest thing a woman can do with her life is become a wife and mother. And so to honor the gods, like I really want, that's how he thought of it. He did not think, oh, you're less than. To become the thing that is worth a man dying for, you will go become a wife and mother. It's the most beautiful thing you could do.


Denigrating Motherhood (02:11:31)

It's the greatest contribution to the world, to your family. Like people that denigrate, my wife doesn't have kids. I don't have kids. But to denigrate, motherhood is fucking insane. So anyway, with love and joy and reverence in his heart, he was thinking you will become a mother. - So enjoy your time. - Yeah, so like, yeah, study whatever you want. And that really imprinted in my wife, even though she had big dreams, it imprinted in my wife that being a mother and being a wife is very honorable. And so when we got married, she thought, okay, you go be successful first, and then when we're successful enough, I'll chase my dream as well. And in that though, she had to work through me. She didn't have a direct interface to the world with ambition and drive, but she had a husband. And she could incentivize her husband in her very powerful feminine ways. And the greatest explanation of this I've ever heard was in my big fat Greek wedding, when the woman said, your father may be the head, but I'm the neck. And I point him at whatever I want to point him. That was my marriage. And so my wife pointed me at becoming the man that I've become and rewarded the things she liked. And I know this is probably the dumb word to use, but punish the things that she didn't. And to earn her respect and to get that look, that look that a woman gives when she thinks you're incredible, to earn that look, which is the greatest thing in the world, I became who I became. - Yeah, and it's super attractive to a woman. It's fucking amazing. - Because here's the thing, we are attracted to men that fulfill their potential. We're always attracted to a man that fulfills his potential. When we see a man filled with potential and he's not using it, we naturally become less attractive. And it's one of the reasons why I find, the younger generation where they make a lot of money on crypto and they make a lot of money quick, it's super unattractive to women. It only attracts very vacuous women because the reality is the skills that you need and all the failures and the rejection and the setback, essentially you need them to build character. When you get rich fast, you still, you'll find these men bored in a gym at like 4 p.m. on a Wednesday because they don't really have a structured life or anything like that. And they feel unfulfilled as well. There, I would love to see long-term studies on men that made money quickly on crypto and in the future in terms of their mental health. I don't know how conducive it is to them because for men, they need to be somewhat, and even for women, there needs to be some discomfort in order to stimulate your potential. And these kind of quick fixes don't do it. So I do recognize that women are attracted to money, but good women are not attracted to money. They're attracted to the process of a disciplined, self-controlled man. But vacuous women are attracted to the outcome, not the process. And they just wanna see you. They don't care if you're a drug dealer. They don't care if you're a crypto guy. They just wanna see the lifestyle. So you have to be careful how you make your money. - Very interesting. Okay, so why do wealthy men get cheated on more? - Their selection in partners tend to be awful. Now, unfortunately, you got very lucky. You picked a partner before you made money, but unfortunately-- - I assure you, I did not get lucky. - Oh, you didn't? - No, no, no. - Yeah, you selected-- - I went in with my eyes wide open. - Amazing. That's the way to do it. What happens with rich men is they tend to, the reality is being super, super successful tends to require some level of social autism. And what I mean by that is it requires a man who's happy to sacrifice social connections to just work, just get work done. So he tends to be a man with a small circle, small interaction, limited social skills. Let's just get on with work. Now, that kind of guy, unfortunately, what happens is he goes through most of life not really meeting many women, not really being around them. And then making money, you just access loads of really attractive women that you didn't think you could ever access before. So what happens is they lose their eyesight when it comes to her character, and they focus entirely on her appearance. So they end up attracting women who just like his lifestyle, who don't care if there's a lot of emotional connection, won't mind that you're working 25 hours a day, eight days a week, because she's got access to your credit card. And that type of woman is completely different to the woman that begs you for a few days off so she can spend more time with you. So what happens is men that have simple jobs, simple careers attract women who like quality time. Men that have very busy careers that take over their world, they attract women who just like the perks of being with you and those women are so emotionally disconnected to you that cheating doesn't feel like anything to those women. Whereas the women that build with you and are emotionally connected to you crave quality time. They don't want that CEO lifestyle. So they filter themselves out. So you end up with a pool of women that are more likely to cheat. - That's really interesting. This is why people really have got to ask themselves the question, what is going to need to be true for this relationship to be worth the sacrifices? And if your answer is sex, you're in real trouble.


The Outcome Attracted To The Process (02:16:54)

- And you have to ask yourself, if your motivation for becoming rich is getting more women, you have to think about the quality of women. If you couldn't access her without money, then chances are any man with money can access her. And if you can access her without money, she's your level. But if it takes money to access her, you are replaceable by the next man who's an ATM. So don't do it, unfortunately. We have to be realistic with our expectations. If you're a four out of 10 guy that happens to be a millionaire, the reality is a 10 out of 10 girl is still not going to be physically attracted to you. She's still going to just be attracted to your lifestyle. So she's more likely to still get her physical needs met elsewhere. And the amount of women I see cheating on their rich husbands is unbelievable. - The weird thing about this for me, and it may just be that you're right. And there's a self-selection bias for the female version of sociopathy, quite frankly, because typically men cheat because they want a novel sexual experience and women cheat because they want an emotional experience that they're not getting from their spouse. But this is a totally different thing, it sounds like. - Yeah, because usually the emotional connection is limited when a man is so busy. But I say rich men have it the same way beautiful women are more likely to be cheated on. And people are always confused by that 'cause they'll say to a beautiful girl that gets cheated on, "He's also beautiful. How did he cheat on you?" And I always say, "You're the most likely to get cheated on if you're a beautiful woman." And the reason being is, you gotta remember men are terrified of women and terrified of rejection. It's not a nice feeling. That man that is able to go to the tenor or ten in the club or the tenor and tenor in the street and try and approach her and try and be with her is a man who wants women and wants beautiful women so much that he's able to forego his risk of rejection. He really likes beauty. So that man is always going to be attracted to beautiful women. Beautiful women are a big value to him. He likes that. That's an important outcome for him in his life. So when you're with a woman who's super beautiful, chances are you've been with other beautiful women or beauty means a lot to you. You're willing to risk rejection for it. So unfortunately, what happens to women is that shy, quiet, good, reserved man, if she's really beautiful, he won't approach it. He doesn't care to go through the potential rejection to get to her. But the guy that has plenty of women who really value sex, really wants sexual intimacy, really likes beauty is the only pool of men that come to her. And that man is more likely to be unfaithful sexually. So beautiful women and rich men, they're the most likely to be cheated on. - That's really fascinating. I don't think that's what people expect. So-- - I mean, it's not necessarily the case all the time. But the reality is if I see a man and he's chosen a very, very like simple, not so pretty girl, doesn't look after herself, that man has a libido that's different to a man that has a Playboy bunny wife. Libido is different. He's a type of guy that's okay with average and isn't super, super distracted by beauty and just is sex doesn't, isn't the full pay of forefront of his mind. Whereas a guy that's got the Swedish supermodel, sex means something to him. Beautiful girls mean something to him. Accessing beauty is important. He's more likely to stray. - So the whole red pill movement with guys today feeling like they're pulling back the curtain on how the world really works and they're understanding these games with women. What do you tell them? - It's nonsense and put it all away. And it's literally put a disease that you've inserted into your brain. Genuinely, yeah. - How do you put it away? I've heard you say delete your dating apps. - 'Cause here's the thing with the red pill. You've got to understand that men that are successful with women don't actually watch red pill content. This doesn't really appeal to the men that have good success with women who select women wisely, have good healthy relationships. They don't actually watch the red pill content that much. It's the men that suffer with women are the ones either they've been hurt or they suffer in general. They're bad at selection. They're the ones that listen to it. So what happens is it, the red pill content exaggerates their existing fears. They usually have an underlying fear or bad or poor selection and the red pill content will tell them exactly what to fear, how to fear it and their strategies to avoid it. But it's not actually teaching them the skills and tools that they need to create a good healthy relationship.


Recovering From MGTOW  Becoming a High-Self Esteem Man (02:21:30)

It's just how to protect yourself against the evil that is women. And so it's really dangerous to them. It actually doesn't help them overcome their shortcomings. It just exaggerates them and validates them and then makes them more fearful of women and more weak. - More weak what? - Red pill content creates weak men. - Say more. - Because what it does is it teaches them how to select terrible women. It teaches them have lots of money and you'll get lots of girls. Have a young girl that's half your age, that's what you want. These women are just there for lifestyle. Of course they're gonna cheat on you. It treat the mean, keep them keen. Basically attract a broken woman. To have a woman with no standards, who loves lifestyle, is a bimbo, doesn't intellectually challenge you. That's the woman you should be with. What is this nonsense? How are you gonna create a marriage out of that? That's what they teach them. - So what if you could be the empress of the red pill for a year, what would we be? What are some of the lectures that we would give to try to get them back on track? Like they've got a base assumption that the woman is the enemy, that money is gonna solve your problems. - If you've ever come across a woman that's your enemy, it's because you've had low self-esteem and poor boundaries. It's never the woman. Never ever. There are thieves everywhere, but my house has never been broken into 'cause there's a lock on the door. There's drug dealers everywhere. I've never taken one because I'm not interested in that. Now if you are constantly getting played by women, you are constantly getting used by them, they're cheating on you, it's because you saw red flags and ignored them and went forward because your low self-esteem was driving your selection process rather than your actual boundaries. So it's entirely and utterly your fault. There are terrible women everywhere in the world, but if you are a man who's secure enough and willing to walk away when you see red flags or when you see your boundaries being crossed enough times, you will never experience the wrath of a terrible woman. You might come across them here and there, you might get burnt here and there, but you'll never really fall prey to it. But I see men whose wives have stolen access to the children, don't allow them any access, taken all their money, cheated on them, but I always say to them, even when it gets to that point, she didn't become this woman yesterday. She had all of the red flags from day one. And they'll say, yeah, it's true, she used to deprive her other ex of seeing the children, or yeah, she did used to date a billionaire and took half of his money. All of the red flags were preexisting. They don't come overnight. You choose to ignore them. Oh, she was talking to her ex when we first got together, or she had a boyfriend when we first met, but I managed to steal her. She showed you who she was. You chose to ignore it. You can't accept that you chose badly and you as a man failed yourself. And now you wanna believe that they're the enemy when really the enemy is your own low self-esteem. - So how do they raise it? - Problem solving. This is what a man needs to do. If you wanna raise your self-esteem, it's very simple. You take all the problems you have in your life, whether it's financial, whether it's with women, whether it's with connection, and instead of seeking highs, like if I'm missing out on women, I could easily hire an escort and get the feeling of a woman, or I can work on the skills I need to access good women. I problem solve while avoiding highs. If I'm overweight, I could easily just take a few pills and lose a few weight or get some surgery, or I can learn the skills on how to have a healthy diet and why I use food as a coping mechanism and get rid of that. I have to take all the problems, find a solution to them, problem solve, and I'll start to respect myself far more.


Challenges And Strategies In Relationships

Everything That's Wrong with the Red Pill (02:24:56)

And once I start to realize I have the ability to solve problems, I start to trust my own judgment a lot more and know that if something goes wrong, it's okay, I'll fix it. So if she walks away and if she doesn't like my boundaries, no worries, I'll find another one, I'll be able to do it. But it's a lack of ability to problem solve makes men feel overwhelmed and then they seek highs rather than solving problems. - Why delete dating apps? - You know, I said that, but in the reality, I do understand it's very hard to be single. It's really hard to be single. I know it's super, super hard to be single and find people and meet people in an organic way. But unfortunately, what dating apps does is it polarizes you where either you have an abundance and illusion of options and you think everybody's replaceable and you just have very kind of minimal investment relationships and you replace people, or you just get nonstop rejection and you start to really suffer in the form of low self-esteem and think, fuck the dating apps, I'm just gonna go pay for an escort. Either way, it distorts your self-image in some way, shape, or form. You either start thinking you're king of the castle because you can get so many girls, but really most of the girls on there are also a bit lonely and desperate and maybe on the rebound. Or you start thinking you're the ugliest man on the planet and you need to rely on escorts or something like that. Either way, it damages the self-esteem. There are lots of success stories and I don't completely forbid it, but I do think there's dangers in dating apps. - So how do people today meet other people? - I wish I knew, I wish I knew. This is one thing-- - How'd you meet your significant other? - I met through work, yeah, work-related and stuff. So mine was all investment-related, so I had that luxury. But I really wish I knew because a lot of people come to me with this question. What is a good way to meet people in LA? I don't know what it would be like in LA. Is it bars and clubs or? - I mean, I wouldn't rule those out, but that isn't where I would start people. So I would figure out because what you were saying at the beginning is so right, you wanna match somebody's values. The reason that arranged marriages, as much as I'm opposed to it, has some logic is that somebody who's been in a marriage, raised kids, cares deeply about their kids, they're gonna be like, okay, what are the real things that allow somebody to be long-term successful in a marriage? And it's gonna be values. It's gonna be, okay, they share enough values that they're gonna be able to get along. They're probably looking for people that are good at problem solving. Novel problem solving is arguably the greatest skill anybody can develop. - Probably got a job and all of these educated, yeah. - They will have passed certain hurdles and all that stuff. It sounds like really boring stuff, but this is why I like your advice. It is grounded in reality. It's actually practical. Okay, so if we know that's really what people need to be doing in order to find somebody, I would say, what are your values? What are the things you like? And then go put yourself in those physical circumstances where you're gonna be around those people. - Like a gym or like a, you know, gym. - Could be a gym if that's your shtick, but women I would say are very weird about being approached at the gym. There's, and look, I don't go to a full gym. - If you're attractive enough, all the rules go down the drain, unfortunately. Yeah, unfortunately. - So here then what I will say is, if you're a guy that's gonna be impressive in the gym, go there, 'cause you wanna be somebody you're going to be impressive. In fact, I've never said that out loud, but that's true. Here is, this is exactly how I got my wife. I was her teacher. Now it was a school for adults, very clear. And I'm only three years old. - I was a teacher before as well. Yeah, it's probably why I put, yeah. - In fact, one of the things I wanna talk to you about, make a note on that. - It's a good transition, isn't it? Going from teaching to podcasting and stuff like that. - Well, it's interesting for me, there was like 15 years, maybe almost 20 between. - But that skillset is useful. - Yeah, I get why you say that. I've never thought about that before, but I get why you say that. - So yeah, you were saying you met your wife? - Yeah, so she saw me in a shared interest.


Maxing your game (02:29:03)

So she came to learn film. I was teaching film, so we both shared a deep passion. And then she saw me at my best. She saw me doing something where she was like, oh. And then look, here's something people hate, but power dynamics is a whole thing. And look, I get it. My wife and I are a me too story on a different timeline. The good news is she's the only student I ever hit on, literally once, that was it. - And are you only like three or four years apart? - Yeah, three and a half years apart. - That's not real, yeah. - So that, you wanna find a circumstance like that, where it's a thing like I really enjoy this thing and it gives me a chance to shine. Because you need a way for them to see what you're good at. - What if you're not an impressive person? - You have to become impressive or you have to date down. - Yes, or you have to date down. - Them's are your options. So my whole thing is, and I know that the Black Pill community really hates the idea of maxing. - What's maxing? - Where you go, okay, I'm gonna max my looks, I'm gonna max my body, I'm gonna max my whatever. But that is the only thing that fucking makes sense. - What do they think you should do? - They just want you, and look, my dearest Black Pill people, I get it. Because you can't imagine how much it wounds my soul that I will never be as smart as Elon Musk. That really bothers me. - Really? - Oh yes, that causes me no small amount of pain and suffering. - The fact that you're smarter than like probably five billion people? - Literally doesn't help. - Really? - It doesn't help, not even a little bit. The only thing that comes to my rescue is understanding, the only thing that's torture is constantly lamenting that I'm not going to be as smart as him. So that's a waste of time. If there's something I can do about it, go do something about it. And if there's not something I can do about it, stop fucking worrying about it. The whole game is how you feel about yourself and you're by yourself. That's it. So if you focus on the, look, if I were horribly burned and my IQ were lower, my life would be worse. There's no way around that. - There's no two ways unfortunately. - And so I get it. But if that were my lot, investing in how shitty it is, is fucking stupid. So as somebody who, my heart, the way I'm expressing myself right now is because I love people and I want to see people be happy and I want to see them flourish. And so I'm telling you it's fucking stupid because it won't help you be happy. It won't help you find fulfillment. So you've got to take on the Jocko Willink attitude of I'm horribly burned, good. Now what am I going to do with my life? Because I can undo it. So either go become a scientist that fucking figures out how to deal with horrible burns or go be an author or develop Ready Player One and create a world where your own physicality matters far, whatever. But sitting at home lamenting it is the only thing that doesn't make sense. So in my life, I have a rule. I only do and believe that which moves me towards my goals. Since my number one goal is to feel good about myself when I'm by myself, I can't sit here and spend cycles worrying about the fact that I'm not smarter than I am. It is what it is. So I'm going to maximize the intelligence that I have. And I'm going to figure out, okay, if we can all get 100 times better, literally everybody. The guy with a 98 IQ can still get 100 times better because that's what the human brain does is it grows and adapts. But you have to apply yourself. - So what would you say to men that are like not taking care of their weight or just not investing in themselves? Do they just have to, should they just accept that they have to date down? Because what I find with my clients that I've not taken care of their appearance, that I've not kind of reached their potential, what they end up doing is maybe marrying somebody that's in Thailand or living in the Philippines who needs a visa, who needs somebody to kind of save her and her family. And that's where they feel impressive. So instead of maxing out their potential, they just go find somebody more dire that they can look impressive in front of. Do you think that's a strategy they can use? - If it works, but it feels like a very fragile strategy. - It usually doesn't work, but that's what they think would work. Do you think in the meantime that gives them a false sense of self-esteem? - If it gives them, I don't know that it gives them a false sense of self-esteem. You're actually able to help somebody. And that is amazing. The problem is once you've helped them, then they're gonna be like, "Rad, thanks, bye." - But yeah, here's the problem. They think it will be in exchange for emotional intimacy. And you can't actually buy emotional intimacy. You can do everything else, but you cannot buy emotional intimacy from a woman. So though it makes them feel like a superhero, they're expecting her to be genuinely in love with him and genuinely appreciate him when really he's her Obamacare palan. So unfortunately it doesn't work that way. And they suffer in the form of lower self-esteem on the other end, but it's something in the moment they can't help because it helps. And that's why I see a lot of these passport pros. Have you heard of that concept? It's men who give up on women in America. So they take their passport and they'll go find a 90 day fiance elsewhere. - So that phenomenon, I think, breaks into different categories. So what you're describing, I hadn't heard about. I didn't know that's a thing. I would definitely, while I think when you help somebody that is real, if you're expecting that to lead to sex and a real relationship, it's not going to. Yes, I think you need to date within your sexual market values. You need to be honest with yourself. One thing I've always prided myself on, I don't lie to myself. And so that has rewarded me richly, largely like as I got rich, I did not even think about trying to find another woman. I was like, dude, sharing a life with somebody is the bomb. And if somebody is with me for my money and they're super hot, they're going to be like, I mean, you've been talking about this. They're going to be with me, not because they're attracted to me, but because they want something rich. - So what drives you if you don't, you know, in a monogamous relationship, you're, praise be to God. I mean, I don't know if your viewers have ever seen your home, but it's unbelievable. And so what drives it? I was asking Lisa this as well. What drives you? You guys are literally doing so incredible, but you haven't slowed down. What is it that keeps you going? - Meaning and purpose is the only thing that matters. - Amazing. - Meaning and purpose. - It gives you a legacy or something? - Nope, I don't think about legacy 'cause I'm not having kids and once I die, that's it. I will be completely unaware of anything. I cannot, as I think as Marcus Aurelius said, you can't enjoy your posthumous fame. So even if I'm able to do something that lasts me on me, I won't fucking know, I'm dead. - Yeah, you've accepted mortality. You don't need to live beyond it. - 100%. So I just know that life is about a neurochemical state and you're doing everything you can to be fulfilled. And so I learned very early on that the only way to be fulfilled is to work your ass off, to gain a set of skills that allows you to serve not only yourself, but other people in a way that you find exciting. And so that's it. We started Impact Theory for that reason. But I could see myself at some point saying, "Ah, this is too much. I don't wanna work this much anymore." And so I've already worked out what those plans would be.


People who give up on America (02:36:28)

- And you would ever change your mind on kids or you think no? - At this point, I don't. So first let me define how I feel about kids. And by the way, for listeners listening closely, there's an open loop 'cause I said that there were two things that that could be, the passport bro thing. So I will try to remember to come back to that. Would I ever change my mind on kids? The thing that I actually think about kids, I really want kids. Like I really want kids. I could write you poems that would make you convinced that I've had kids. - Wow. - Now the reason I can do that is 'cause I big brother for a kid for eight and a half years and so I know what it's like to have somebody love you and you love them back. And there was a moment where he begged me to basically be his father and to take him on. Now, unfortunately I did not know he was being abused. And so I was like, man, I'm so young, bro. I'm like, I'm not ready to be a dad anyway. So I know that experience maybe more intimately than people give me credit for. But it's also part of why I don't want kids. So the only thing I want more than to have kids is to not have kids. And one of the things I wanted to talk to you about is I have a real fear. The only thing, this is gonna be controversial.


The only thing that makes a relationship worth it to me (02:37:47)

The only thing that makes a relationship worth it to me because it is a sacrifice and constant compromise and constantly dealing with the way that women look at the world, which sometimes drives me fucking crazy. And I know that the way that men view the world drives Lisa crazy. I totally get it. But it is just a big ball of compromise. The only thing that makes it worth it is to be somebody's number one. And when a woman has kids, your number whatever, how many kids she has. So if she got three kids, you're number four. - And do you think that might have to do with your childhood and your dad feeling miserable after a while? - It must, but I don't have- - You didn't process it in that direction? - That's not how it felt growing up. Like when my dad left, I was super surprised. I did admittedly over time realize, oh, that's why I was having those dreams about a loveless marriage. But from the kid's perspective, it was awesome. - Did your mom prioritize you guys? - No, so my mom was an awesome mom. I can't stress that enough. She's here right now. I have a great relationship with both my parents. My mom was amazing, exactly what I needed, exactly the reason I think I'm so capable of dealing with relationships. She's why I didn't do drugs or alcohol. Like I have no complaints about how I was raised. But when I think about the way that what my mom said to me, it always made a lot of sense, which is you kids, I'm raising you to leave us one day and you should leave us one day, but that means I have to prioritize your dad. - Okay, so she- - And I was always like, word. Like that made a lot of sense to me. - Okay, so the only thing I'm curious about is what is it that makes you want to prioritize your marriage so much so that you would outrun your love for becoming a father? - Because that's hypothetical. - Right. - And my wife is real. And I did the reality of having kids. You don't have kids yet, right? - No, no. - Okay, so I'll say this more for your soon to be husband, maybe one day husband. - Yeah, and Charlotte. - That one day his child is going to recount to him a 30 second TikTok video and it's gonna take him nine minutes to tell him about the 30 second video. And he's gonna beg your child to stop explaining it to him and he's gonna keep going because he doesn't have a prefrontal cortex and he can't help himself. And maybe your husband finds that cute and endearing. I wanted to chew through plate glass window. - You think it might be because it wasn't your biological child. - It's possible. - Yeah. - But it's also possible that that shit is just obnoxious and there's a reason that dads especially will continue to lean into work. The way I would want to contribute to the family is I would want to work and build and provide. I don't find myself, I'm not a good caretaker.


Such a healthy example of a couple (02:40:45)

I don't enjoy caretaking at all. - Yeah, the only reason I say it's very rare that I come across couples that I feel are such a healthy example to children. And I mentioned this to Lisa as well and even just from watching you guys online, I just thought, what if you two had children, that would be one of the luckiest children in the world. - That's very kind of you. - Yeah. - I'm super honored. - I genuinely believe you would be fantastic. - I think I would. - Yeah. - I think we'd smash it. - Yeah, I've never seen two people so respectful of each other, so respectful of their guests, create such a beautiful world. And I would be your child just like anyone would be. And I just remember watching an interview of you guys, I think you were talking about resolving conflict. And I just thought in a world where the worst people on the planet are recreating, wouldn't it be such a beautiful world if people like this had children all the time? - Yes. And so I actually, now you're onto where I'm conflicted. - Yeah. - Because I worry that we're headed for, and this is gonna sound crazy to people that are passionate about the environment. But I worry that we're headed to population collapse and that our problem is not gonna be overpopulation, it is going to be dramatically underpopulated. You just have to look at the math, the math is there. We are going to be underpopulated for sure. And so that really scares me. And so now when I meet parents, I thank them for their service. - Yeah, yeah. - Because I am very grateful. - Yeah, I know, I genuinely, and this is not to be like, tell anybody what to do, but it's just very, when you see a beautiful marriage, the psychologist in you is just like, "Oh my God, imagine how lucky the child would be. Oh my God." And so that's my natural plus with my ethnic background. I naturally kind of, we think kids is everything. But no, it's a very conscious decision on your end. There is no nothing bearing it. So I was always just curious, but you've explained it really well. I completely understand. And in my experience of working with couples that don't have kids, they tend to have a very magical marriage. 'Cause the only thing that will forego the desire to have children is if you have a connection that's worth it. So that's usually what I tend to find. - Yeah, and I have to say it like, my wife is awesome. And I'm obsessed. So that doesn't help from that perspective. - Yeah, I completely understand. - But here's the thing, I want people to hear me. What we're doing is a very dangerous strategy and I actually don't advise it. And there are days where the thought of being a father really pulls at me. And there are more days where I'm glad I don't have them, but we knew that going into it. - Why do you think it's a dangerous strategy?


Dangerous strategy (02:43:26)

- Because I think we are products of evolution and evolution wants one thing and one thing only from you. And that is that you have kids that survive long enough to have kids. And so fulfillment, if I'm right, that that really is the name of the game, the most ready-made path to fulfillment is kids. - Yeah, they are, they're amazing. And I understand. And usually I don't recommend them, especially when the relationship is chaotic and stuff, because with the wrong person, they can be a life sentence. Yeah, and I've seen people's lives. And I've spoken to so many women who say, no matter how much I love my child, I love him to bits, but when you have it with the wrong person, I promise you, you regret every single day because it's your life, you feel like you're trapped. So it's a risk either way. I guess it's a risk either way, but we are living in a world where there definitely will be more and more people that choose not to have children as we get older. - Scary. - It is scary. And it's usually the sensible people that choose not to have children. That's the scary part. It's always the successful, intelligent, like sensible people who opt out of it. And it's more the reckless people who opt in. So this is the kind of- - The really bad news is the more you educate women, the fewer kids are born. - Oh yeah, that's true. That's very true. - Those are just facts. - Yeah, I wonder what the correlation is with that. - That's very easy. - What do you think that is? - From an evolutionary perspective, you had no other option, basically. There was no birth control. So if you wanted the protection of a man, like even just forget romance for a second. If you wanted to be protected in times where that was a real fucking thing, which is the vast majority of our evolutionary history, you were going to have sex. And if you had sex, the odds of you getting pregnant were virtually 100%. So it wasn't an option. But women have incredible minds. And so when they're educated, they respond the same way a guy does. This is fucking incredible.


Societal Inequality And Threats

Decreasing population (02:45:26)

I love this. There's so many options, so many things that fascinate me, so many things I want to try. I want to see if I'm good at this. And so when you do that and society gets safer, now, instead of having six kids, they have one. And so even if they still become a mother, they don't become a mother of six or 12. They become a mother of one. - Right, yeah. - And so now if a couple only has one child, the population will be cut in half. - Crazy. - Yeah, so it's not like nobody's having kids. It's that you, to hold steady, I think the number's like 2.3. Every couple has to have 2.3 kids because of mortality. So it's like, you can't fuck around. - Yeah. So we're literally decreasing the population. - Rapidly. - So we go up to something like 9.7. - Do you think homosexuality has a role to play? - I don't think so. - No? - Look, I worry, hey, let's open a crazy can of worms. I have a feeling, this is just a hunch, it's a hypothesis. I do not have the data on this. I could be totally wrong and no worries if I am. But something is going on that's disrupting our endocrine system. I have a feeling that it's microplastics and other environmental toxins. And that's really causing some strange effects, the effeminization of men, the masculinization of women. - But it's so visceral in America. It's like, you know, maybe it's just an LA thing, maybe, but whenever I'm in America, the men are almost androgynous. And it's so different to anywhere else in the world. So I don't know if, I'm not really much of a conspiracy theorist, but it just doesn't seem typical. And I don't know if it's just in big cities or whatever it is, but there does seem to be a shift. And I don't know if that's socially conditioned. I don't know if it's because we're exposing people to more choices and, you know, exposing them to more sexual pleasure, but it does seem different. - There, okay, again, now I'm talking about an idea that I have not researched, so I will merely explain how I approach the problem. Looking at it, it's almost certainly gonna be multifactorial, it's gonna be a lot of things, but I've had enough health guests on the show to know our endocrine systems are being disrupted. Nobody debates that. Something is going on. - So can you biologically change people's sexual orientation? - Ooh, that I'm not speaking to. - Yeah, I don't know. - All I'm saying is that there is something that the androgynous vibe is some percentage, could be 1%, could be 99%, I have no idea. Some percentage of the equation is going to be when you disrupt the endocrine system, you're gonna get unexpected results in terms of sexuality, sexual preference, et cetera, et cetera. It's way too early for anybody, especially myself, to say definitively what that is. Cultural will also certainly be a component. It is utterly fascinating how much flexibility there is, especially in female sexuality. From what little literature I have looked at, females do seem to have an easier time being bisexual than men. And so there's some pretty, there's a-- - Do you think that might be linked to the fact that we believe that men are more forgiving of bisexuality or more encouraging? - In women, you mean? - Yeah, or more encouraging. I know that as a woman, if you tell a man you're bisexual, it's almost encouraged. But if you tell a woman that you are a bisexual man, it's automatically discouraged, or at least she loses attraction. So do you think the flexibility comes from the forgiveness of men or the encouragement of men? - Okay, can I just completely derail? And I'm asking the audience as much as you. So please, everybody, understand that I've asked evolutionary biologists this question and nobody knows, so I am speculating. But I'm speculating having read a lot of books on the topic. Okay, so here it goes. The question I want everyone to ask themselves. Ask yourself this. Why on God's green earth is the clitoris on the outside? That doesn't make any fucking sense. For you, if I'm right, and all evolution cares about is that you have a child that lives long enough to have a child, then women should want nice, deep penetration. Because the reason why a man thrust deeply at orgasm is so that the ejaculate is as close to the cervix as humanly possible, so the sperm has to travel the least amount of distance. But you put the pleasure button for a woman on the outside, what the fuck? That is the weirdest thing I can possibly think of. So then you have to, why would this be? Okay, look at the animal kingdom. Again, I know I'm speculating. I know I'm way out over my skis here. But this is so interesting to me. Okay, if you look at bonobos, who are one of our closest relatives, they will use female to female genital contact as a way of mending relationships, of bonding, women to women. Now, if women are literally biologically gifted in all the ways you would need to be gifted in order to care for an infant, from being able to feed them from their body, that's fucking crazy. 15% of women have a fourth photoreceptor, which means they actually see colors men can't see. One hypothesis is that allows them to see changes in the skin tone of their child, to see if they're sick, distressed, whatever. Their ability to pick up on emotions, nonverbal cues, they just outscore men left, right and center. So if the clitoris is on the outside as a way to allow women to bond to men broken fences in order to have additional care for the young, so that they'll team up and they'll look after the infants together, you can understand then why the infant would be more likely to survive longer. Now I've asked that question directly to evolutionary biologists and they're like, maybe there's absolutely no data to back that up. But that to me just makes all the sense in the world. So now you get to one, from a guy's perspective, if I can convince two women to be together and allow me into the mix, now I have access to two females, obviously much better. From evolutionary perspective, if I can hoard resources, and so now it actually makes sense for women to come to me and nature does not give a shit if one guy populates a thousand babies, 10,000 babies, I mean, look at Genghis Khan or-- - But wouldn't the women compete for the resources compared to a monogamous man? - Women will, a guy will only be able to monopolize as many women as they can give resources to. Is that what you're asking? - Yeah, I'm just wondering if evolutionary encouraged two women to be with one man, wouldn't they and maybe almost be bisexual and just kind of make it easier, would there still not be a source of enmity regarding the resources? - Well, so yes, undoubtedly. And that's why if the clitoris is on the outside, then women potentially, I'm making this up, I have no idea, correct. And so now women have a way to leverage oxytocin and vasopressin that happens when you orgasm, they have access to that without needing a penis. Now, again, this is just a hypothesis, but man, I've really tried to invalidate this and it just, there's so many things that are like, huh, it could be. - Could it be that sometimes the reason for the clitoris to be on the outside is because during menstrual cycles, they can't really get pregnant through penetration anyway, so they might as well be a way to outsource pleasure without needing-- - It's certainly possible and I have no data to say one way or the other. - I don't have any data making this up on the, I'm just curious. - From personal experience, women tend to be turned off when they're on their period, that they don't want people near them, that they would rather, eh, let's wait. So my gut instinct is they're not like encouraging sexual contact of any kind at that point. Again, guess not anecdotal for sure. - Yeah, it's good to kind of stimulate, I've never thought about that before though. - I think about that endlessly. - Yeah, I wonder why, like, I just still find it so curious that I see, one thing I find really interesting about this whole homosexuality debate is women will invite other women into the relationship and they'll be bisexual or they'll kiss another woman or sleep with another woman and their man is okay with it, but when they sleep with another man, it's cheating. But if we are saying love is love and gay rights are equal to straight rights, wouldn't it be just as offensive if they cheated with a same sex partner? - Absolutely not. - Why? - It would be for a woman because a woman is going to, so again, I'm talking in generalities, none of this is universally true, this is just sort of directionally correct, but if what women have the most things, 'cause I've heard you say this, not like they're gonna be thrilled that you went out and cheated, but for a woman, emotional infidelity is gonna be way more problematic than sexual. - From a evolutionary perspective as well. - Correct, that's only what I'm talking about. Whereas for a guy, sexual infidelity is the only problem. Like if Lisa came home and was like, I went out with this guy and we've been talking and you've been working so much and we just really connected. Now, if she said she was in love, that would really grip me in a rough way. But if she was like, and we've been flirting and just being really emotionally connected to each other, but we haven't slept together, can we work on it?


Inequalities: past and present (02:55:13)

And be like, yeah, of course. But if she was like, I slept with them, it'd be like, peace. - But the thing is, I understand from an evolutionary perspective why a man would be less jealous if their woman was with another woman and almost encourage that kind of in a threesome environment or whatever it is. But from a woke perspective, if we're saying it's all equal and homosexual relationships and heterosexual reasons are identical, wouldn't it be equally offensive? - I don't think the woke perspective is grounded in reality. - Right, okay. - So my quick take on the woke perspective is that there is ground truth, but it's hard to ascertain. - Yeah. - And the way to figure out what is literally true is to make a prediction, figure out how you can test that prediction, run that test, and if that thing works out, then you're close to ground truth. And so when you think of your brain as a prediction engine, anytime where you predict something and then you try it and it doesn't work, it should tell you you were wrong about something. There's some part of your base assumption stack. Correct. And so the fact that it isn't as offensive, that most, look, if my wife is having an emotional affair with a woman and I don't know about it, I'm not gonna love that. I'm just saying I can get over it in a way that I would have a very hard time. Like nature has ensured a level, like I said, I'm not a jealous person. If my wife came back and said she slept with somebody else, that would really fuck with me. - Yeah. - That would really fuck with me. And if she, oh God, let me wind myself up here for a second. If she came back and was like, he was so strong. - Yeah. - And just he's six, six, fucking jacked, and just a schlong you need a wheelbarrow for, I'd be like, that's tough. - Yeah. - I would have a very hard time with that. - Yeah. - Because that triggers all the things that evolution has told me to worry about. - Right, okay. - And so, yeah, if she perceived him as more powerful. - So woke culture, do they just suppress the evolutionary kind of forces? - No, I think that, so this stuff gets complicated enough. So woke culture, I believe, this is my sort of layman's analysis, I think the more it's studied, the more people are gonna find it's a combination of two things. It's a combination of real compassion, of really wanting nobody left behind, everybody loved, honored and respected. And no matter what you want to be, that you can be that. And that they wanna see you be whoever you want to be. And that they're not gonna judge you. And in fact, they want to reflect back to you how much they love you and that they want to embrace that. So the world breaks into right and left for a pretty interesting reason, which is that a tribe needs both people that stand up for personal responsibility and people that stand up for compassion. If you only have compassionate people, then you will get people that abuse that system because they can free ride. If you only have personal responsibility, then there's no compassion. And obviously that's not gonna be good either. So it's what I call pathology on both sides. So you need the tension between the two groups. So that's one part. And then the other part is what Nietzsche called the will to power. And so people want to be in control. And if for no other reason than they wanna control their own life, their own destiny, and they see that it's what's called the sneaky fucker strategy. So in the animal kingdom, there are animals that will pretend like physiologically, they look feminine so they can get past the dominant males. 'Cause the dominant male doesn't recognize them as male. How crazy is that? - And so it doesn't see them in competition. - Correct. And so then they sneakily like, "Hey, actually I'm a guy." And then they mate. - No way that actually exists in the, yeah.


Inequality is a public health crisis (02:59:13)

- So I have a feeling that's all of that sort of mixed in. It starts with something really beautiful and then something not so beautiful rides in the back. - Do you think that the absence of God means that people scramble for popular ideals and try and identify or over-identify with them as a way of virtue signaling? - Well, virtue signaling is very much a thing. Everyone is gonna kneel before something. And some of woke ideology probably does become kneeling before compassion. And so there's a really interesting idea that Jordan Peterson is playing with, which I find really, really interesting. That all of us go through a messianic complex where we need, and this is one of my primary drivers, I need to serve the world in some way. - Right. - That is how I feel good about myself. That I work really hard to get a set of skills that allow me to serve not only myself but other people. And so if we all have that desire to, like I wanna help the world, you're gonna gravitate towards things that are easy. And one of the easy ways to feel like you've done that is to figure out what is virtuous, point out people that aren't virtuous, and simply attack them. So rather than actually go do something hard to serve people, you just be the person that points at other people and says, you're not virtuous enough. - I found a lot of feminism was that growing up in London and in the UK where I didn't see oppression towards women. If anything, I only found hostility between women rather than between men and women. And I found that the quickest and easiest way to show that you have a fight and you're involved in making the world a better place is to claim you're a feminist. And claim that you are out there to stop men impressing women. But in my personal experience where I kept experiencing is women oppressing other women, particularly at work. So I found-- - Interesting. Why particularly at work? - Maybe it was my personal experience, but what I found working with women in the UK and working with British women in general is there was a level of wanting to, being very good friends with women until you feel like they might surpass you. And particularly in a work environment. And I found that they would encourage men more than they would encourage women in a teaching environment. So if they have a male colleague, they'll kind of encourage him towards a promotion, but they wouldn't encourage women. I remember walking into interviews and if I would see a panel of women, I would automatically know I'm not getting the job. And I'd walk out. - Interesting. - I'd walk out and just think there's no point. - Really? - Because if I would see a man, woman, a man, I'd go, okay, I stand a chance. And I'd go in with, and I always found having a female boss was torturous. I always, every job I worked in, if I had a female boss, it was a matter of time before I felt bullied out of it. I only felt it from women. And I don't know if that's a gender thing or if that's an appearance thing or if that is just an age thing 'cause I was younger then. I don't know what the confounding variable was, but it kept me a bit suspicious of the feminist movement 'cause I couldn't understand why the enemy was men when it felt like the enemy was within. - Interesting. Okay, let's start teasing this idea apart. Is it possible that the anecdotal thing, experiences that you've had, aren't necessarily, they don't absolve men. So we can set aside that men may still be evil and problematic, which we will address. - Yeah. Well, in the research, and please feel free to Google, but I felt like I think I read a study that suggested that 80% of women felt like they had hostility from other women at work. - Can we, yeah, let's look that up. - Can we Google if there's a-- - I never heard that. - Hostility at work, yeah. And I don't know, it could just be a TED Talk that I listened to and I just absorbed it because I felt like that. But I felt like there was a lot of hostility within women rather than between the genders. And I always felt like male-- - Is it possible you think this 'cause you're attractive? - Potentially without realizing. I don't know what the world looks like when you are not a threat to any woman. I don't know what the world, if I'm being honest, and it sounds very, very conceited. But women see threats in women, and not necessarily because she's beautifully, it might just simply because she wears a bit of makeup and wears a few heels and whatever it is. So I felt like I didn't know whether it was a personal thing or whether it's just women between women.


Biggest threat is new COVID variants (03:03:33)

I didn't know how to understand it. But what I did know is men were never the enemy and have never been the enemy. And even, and this is why I love Lisa so much, even when I do podcasts, I tend to prefer when, aside from Lisa because she's so well established and so secure in herself, but generally male podcast host tends to be more encouraging and tends to be very proud of my progress. I don't feel the same outside of that. So it could be my personal experience. So I don't wanna talk for everybody. But that's why I was so skeptical about the feminist movement. - Wow, that's really interesting. All right, let's see what we have here. - Research suggests that women actually play a significant role in perpetuating the gender gap due to the concept known as female hostility. I genuinely never went for a promotion when I would know that there was females on the panel. I would never go for it. Whereas if it was men on the panel, I'd be like, "Let me try my luck. Let me wear something tight and try my luck." - Okay, so what is feminism as a movement? - If from my personal perspective, I can't talk objectively. From my personal perspective, it feels like the most privileged members of female history claiming to be oppressed, which I can't see why. In throughout female history, historically we've never had it easier. We've never had it so beneficial. We've never been so benefited. So to see these women, and I still believe that we are beneficial to men in so many ways. Like personally, I know if I got stopped by the police and somebody like my brother got stopped by the police, for the same crime, I guarantee you, I would leave with a smile and a thank you, and I would leave safely. So I know I'm privileged, superiorly to most men in most circumstances. I know I can speak to a boss in a way that probably a man couldn't. I know I could speak to a police officer in a way that other men couldn't. I feel incredibly privileged as a woman, and therefore I don't understand the movement. So it confuses me. But I don't know if it's because my skin is so light. I don't know if it's because of some element of-- - But even if it's that, then that would be racism, not-- - Yeah, but that's why I don't believe there is a gender issue. I still believe like my dad with an accent and brown skin would have a disadvantage against a English white woman in a job environment. I don't think he has a superior chances of getting a promotion just 'cause he's a man. I think if anything, she has it. So that's why I never understood it. - Okay, so now let me try to steal man the argument on the other side. Women have only been in the workforce for whatever, 50, 60 years. There's so much historical legacy of sexism.


Managed vs. Unmanaged C++ (03:06:13)

I mean, you guys had to literally throw yourself in front of horses and shit just to get the right to vote. It's a real story, by the way. I think she even died. - Yes, she did die. - Crazy. - Emily something. - Yeah, so absolutely bananas that the sort of default stance was of course you can't vote. And even Winston Churchill, who I think is phenomenal at first was like, yeah, women shouldn't be allowed to vote, obviously. - But one thing I always say to that when people tell me that is at a time where white women couldn't vote, they could still own black slaves. - That's horrifying. - Let's say for example, I'm a white woman who couldn't vote. I could still own a black man as a slave. So do men have an advantage? - You could also own a black woman. So that feels like a black problem, not a male-female problem. - But then does it show me that women had it bad? If it really was a gender thing, wouldn't it just be men above women? But what's really going on is that there was a class system issues. So the reality is if I'm a woman and I was claiming I was so oppressed in 1920, I could still get a black man arrested and lynched for whistling at me. - Okay, so you're saying the breakdown, the problematic breakdown is not along gender lines. There's a problematic breakdown along race lines. - Way deeper than that. It's probably more money than it is anything else. In the reality of things, money is the real division between people. I don't think it's gender related. There's some race to it, but I still believe that as a woman of color, if I earn a certain amount, I would have same or no more privilege than a white woman who earned nothing. So I would still say it's money related, but I don't think it's gender related. I really don't think it is. It makes no sense to me that a woman would complain about not being able to vote, but she would have a monopoly over men of color at the time. So it wasn't so much gender in my mind. I could be wrong. - If we can remove any of the confounding variables, that would certainly make it easier. So if we just talk about the things that you hear, the gender pay gap, that comes up a lot. Women being expected to be at home, women having a harder time getting promoted at work. Do you have any stats? - What would make me feel like a little bit, what I would try and understand there is when I see women not getting paid as much, I have to remember from what I see is women, once they have children, choose part-time roles more than men choose to be part-time after children. So it makes promotion on a more logical stance less realistic. It's just less realistic that I'm gonna pay you to do a promoted role when three days out of the week you're not there. So it doesn't seem like it's gender related. It's circumstantial. I don't think we're victims because we're women. I think our biology and our evolutionary pressures direct us in a way that make us less proficient at men in certain workforces. But it's not because we're of a gender. It's because of our biological pressures and our personal choices. So that's what I experienced from my work. I could be wrong, but I think the stats would suggest that women probably would choose to be part-time after kids far more than men would. - Yeah, I think the data will bear that out, but admittedly I don't have that at my fingertips. - And I also just don't think why we're creating that division. I don't understand it. I think if we looked at it historically, everybody suffered at some stage or not. And it would usually be the people who would escape suffering tend to be the ones with money, not necessarily men, or not necessarily just white people. It would be people with money. And so that's why I try not to go down the gender road and the whole idea of feminism and stuff, even though I get so many messages and I'm very grateful for women who are like, "Oh, you're inspiring." And I'm like, "Oh, but you need to be careful 'cause I'm not a feminist. I'm gonna offend you at some point." So they're gonna hate me. So I always try and take it with a pinch of salt because I know the moment I talk about feminism, all of that strength that they love hearing me talk about when it comes to red pill goes straight to anger and resentment when I talk about feminism, which is why I almost feel like maybe I am gender neutral. Maybe I am a they/them because I tend to be quite balanced and neutral. I try to be. But is that offensive what I'm saying? I know it might be taken as such, but I don't mean it in an offensive way. - I am not, I'm not at all offended. To me, these things are empirical questions that have data that backs them up. And so looking at that seems self-evident. So to address one part of this, which is the gender pay gap, which Thomas Sowell has spoken very eloquently to, and he said, "If you compare, it's basically women that have never had kids versus everybody else." And so women that have never had kids, if I'm not mistaken, end up outperforming men. And that really it's a mother, you can think of it as a mother tax. Now, I would think from an evolutionary perspective that women would feel pretty good with their choice about I want to go home and spend time with my kids. So that one doesn't seem super surprising to me. And I always come at it from a just pure entrepreneur standpoint. And I'm like, I could not care less if the person is a woman. But if you leave, which I've never had a guy leave when he had a kid, but I've had women, many women leave because they have kids. And God bless them, like go do your thing. - I'm very happy for them. - But the irony is I'll have women, hey, I've gotten pregnant, I'm gonna be taking leave. Amazing, I'm so excited for you. And they're like, but I'm definitely coming back. And I'm always like, hey, everybody says that. You're gonna wanna wait until you actually hold that kid in your arms and then make your life decisions. - And it's a beautiful decision to make. - Thank you for your service. I'm captain, thank you for your service, guys. - It's a beautiful decision to make. But then the agony about the gender pay gaps makes no sense. I know so many women who the moment they have a child, all their career doesn't mean as much to them. So when they fight about feminism and gender pay gaps and stuff like that, it feels like an empty fight. It feels like a self-inflicted wound that they're trying to cover up. But what is it fighting for? Maybe I've just got it wrong because I've always been anti-feminism, but maybe I've misunderstood it because I've just my personal experience. And also I'm very biased. I have a bunch of sisters I'm not close to, so I grew up with a negativity towards women. So maybe that's what made me less sympathetic to their causes. So maybe I'm missing something. - Well, Lisa, I think, and I don't wanna get her in trouble here, speaking on her behalf, but the way that she's always seen this is she is a strong, independent woman, earns her own money, does her own thing. And her take is anything that's anti-men, I am 100% opposed to, just as I'm opposed to anything that's anti-women. We are partners.


Kona Reveal: Memory Profiling and Performance Monitoring (03:13:13)

And if, like my whole thing is, whoever, the world is made up of men and women. Come together. Celebrate what each other is good at. We are going to, we have been evolutionarily shaped to be different, but we overlap far more than we are different. And recognizing that we each bring something to the party and wanting to celebrate that to me is the only thing that makes sense. I do not see women in an adversarial sense, but at the same time, going back to the idea that the brain is a prediction engine, women don't make sense to me when I think of them like a man. But when I learn about women and I learn how their minds work and what they're biased towards, then I can predict their behaviors. And women the same with men. And so the thing I worry about is anything that makes us adversarial, which the modern feminist movement seems very anti-men, and then anything that says there is no difference. And that we're all the same. We can be whatever we want. That's when I'm like, reality is gonna bite you in the ass. This is gonna get really problematic. - And I have to preface that I haven't worked in a corporate industry. So I don't know what it's like in those environments where there's corporate, where men do dominate and stuff. But I do just think the privileges I have from being a woman outweigh any of the cons of being them. And that might be being a particular type of woman, but it just feels like having a feminine energy definitely works in your favor when it comes to judicial system or when it just comes to getting helping behavior and stuff. I don't really feel that disadvantage from being a woman. In any way, shape, or form. - Yeah, the way that I think this breaks down in reality is men and women are different. And so people are gonna be very confused, sometimes offended. Guys are gonna speak in a way that women don't like. Women are gonna speak in a way that men don't like. And so I've thought a lot about this when it comes to race. And it's really not about any given race. It's about who's the majority. And certainly who's the majority in power. And so if you think about that, 'cause I'm obsessed with Japanese culture, but you could make a pretty compelling argument that the Japanese are freakishly racist in Japan in the sense that they don't even let outsiders, like the percentage of outsiders. - They don't try and hide it or anything like that. And they'll take pictures of you if you're a different color and stuff like that. But here's what I, and Dubai is racist. I live in Dubai and your passport determines your pay gap and stuff like that. So it's nothing to do with your gender. You come in with a passport, a British passport, you'll get paid more if you have a Pakistani passport. - Really? - Yeah, and I'm Pakistani. - Wait, that's like, it's actually an official thing? - It's an official thing. - It's written down somewhere. - It's an official thing. - What? - So we could go for the, I could be a doctor and somebody from Pakistan with the Pakistani passport could be a doctor and I'll be paid more because I have a British passport and they have a Pakistani passport. And I don't mean this in any offense to Dubai or anything like that because I very much love the country to work in, but there is very clear divisions. And it's very much like they still get paid far more than they would in Pakistan, but it's definitely far less than I would get as a British citizen. And an American citizen-- - Who is Pakistani? - And I'm Pakistani and I have a dual passport. So I just hand in my British passport and I get paid considerably a lot better. - That is shocking. - Yeah, it's shocking. But here's what happens in those environments. What I don't, what I like about it is it's clear as day, you can either come or you don't, it's up to you. What I found difficult in the UK is that it's almost hidden or it's almost structural. So I'd rather just know where I stand and then I can either choose to be a part of it or I can leave. But when it's not there and it's almost structural, I find that harder to navigate because I felt like there is a division in terms of like, not so much ethnicity, but values. Because I don't drink and I don't go to the pub after work and I don't go out with them and how they socialize, I'm limited in how much I can access the in crowd when it comes to work. So I'd rather it just be on paper. Is that wild that I-- - That's wild. Yeah, I would rather, oh God, that's really interesting. - Would you rather? - I would rather it not be on paper 'cause there's nothing you can do when it's on paper. - I don't like the illusions. Keep it real with me. - I get that, but humans are like that. So first of all, they don't think they're doing it. And that's the thing like-- - They don't think, I have to say that, they don't mean to do it. It's not coming from a malicious place. They don't realize they're doing it a lot of the time. - 100%. And when, so for instance, when I see an all woman company, I'm excited for them. Word, do your thing. But then I also think that if a guy wants to, he should be able to do an all male company. Because then it's like, personally, here's what my current thesis is. Hire for culture for sure. You wanna share values with people. And then find the smartest, hardest working people you can find, male or female. But an all male company would be easier to get along. Because I can talk, I know how I can talk, I know how they're going to interpret things. - Yeah, and you know what paternity leave looks like, and you know that they are coming back, and I completely understand that. So like I said, I could be totally wrong, but because I'm somebody who's so, let's keep it real with me, just keep it real with me, I'd rather be in an environment where I know what the score is than given the illusion of hope. That you can make it, but probably you won't. - No, I definitely wouldn't like that. - You would really, yeah. - No, I really, I can't have a rule that says, like I can't do this thing. - That's divisive. - I mean, to me, that's like 1960s America, where like, we're literally just like, "Fuck you, you're redlined, that's what it is." - It is that, isn't it? - Yeah, that's really, really gnarly. And I need to believe that even if one of the things I have to get good at is fitting in, cool. Like, so Japan, I've thought a lot about this. At one point I considered like, do I convince Lisa to move to Japan? Like I'm into Japan in that kind of way. And I thought, okay, I would have to deal with societal racism. I don't wanna put that word on it, but. - Is it racist or is it just the way they call it? 'Cause I don't know what to describe this. - It's what I call school of fish. I'm much more comfortable saying school of fish, because I don't think that they have negativity in their heart. It's just their country is their country, and they are used to seeing a sea of Japanese people, and they don't love the idea. Whatever, I get it. I come from America where we're a melting pot, I love that, and that's a huge part of my identity is I think that's dope. And I'm a big believer in you can only get to the truth by having a lot of different perspectives. I think that's really powerful. I think you wanna share values and not share insights. So that, I'll just call school of fish. When you're up against the school of fish, people tend to flock with people that look like them as a proxy for people that think like them. - And there's an evolutionary reason for that as well. - For sure. I think, honestly, all humans really care about is do you share my values? That's the thing that everything else is a proxy for. - Color is an indicator of that. - Correct. - Which is why I understand it. Yeah, it's a shared thing. - It's a shared thing. Now it can go super fucking wrong. Humans are weird, and we have an us versus them thing that does not, it doesn't serve us well in a modern context. - No, but it makes total evolutionary sense. If somebody was a different color to you and coming into your tribe, you would know they're there to invade. They're not there to say hi to you. So it makes sense to have a level of fear or skepticism of people of different colors. It doesn't necessarily have to mean that it's coming from a negative place. That's why I understand Japanese culture. I don't feel like they mean it maliciously. They literally don't understand. - They're so lovely, I consider moving there. But at the same time, I get it, white people tend to have a hard time. Outsiders, they have a real problem with foreigners. - Right, okay. What do they think you're gonna do? - I have no idea. That I won't speak to, I don't know enough about it. But I know some people that grew up in America that now live there. And they're like, bro, when they had a breakdown of who got the vaccine when, it was like foreigners were like in 97th place. It was like every conceivable stack of Japanese person. And then the like sickest, oldest foreigner. Then they could finally get it. But it was like, you know, your perfectly healthy 19-year-old Japanese kid, 100% was getting the vaccine before you. - You know what, there's a weirdness to it. When I'm in cultures which prioritize their own culture first, I almost just sign the imaginary contract and accept that's the way you are. Whereas when you grow up in a country which expels the idea of racism and says that everybody's equal, you almost end up looking for the inequalities more. - There is something to that.


Miscellaneous Discussions

How is personalized training going to change (03:21:53)

But I think here's where it breaks for me. If you're born in that country, it's pretty shitty to say, well, why don't you go move to a different country? Fuck that. Like, so now that's rough. And as an American, like I dig the whole melting pot thing. So it's like, I want this to be a rad place, but for people who share my values, I won't lie. Like I care about values. And so that's where I can get like, I really believe in freedom of speech. And so when people are like, you shouldn't have freedom of speech, then I get the heebie jeebies. - And then where do you draw the line between freedom of speech and freedom to offend? I think you should be allowed to offend any fucking body. - Okay, so it's an equal. - The only thing I'll say is you shouldn't be able to incite violence. - Yeah, I agree. I agree. But I think you can offend everybody as long as you're looking for the pursuit of truth. I think if somebody's intention is to find truth and in that process. - What if you're just trying to be funny? - If you're trying to be, if it's a comedian or something, I find that funny. I can take a joke. - Okay, so do you have to be a comedian to say hurtful things? - Usually with a comedian, the goal is to make people laugh rather than the goal is to offend. - Yes, but Dave Chappelle makes a lot of people very, very, very mad. - I'm a big fan of Dave Chappelle. - So am I. - I'm a huge fan. And what I love about his comedy is he's not, he's not far from the truth in the jokes that he's making. He makes jokes, but they are very-- - But what if he wasn't? 'Cause here's what I'm protecting against. I do not want anyone to be the arbiter of whether they think he's going for truth. So I think it's just up to him to let it be. - What I would honestly say is that the truth is never offended by reality. And what I mean by that is if I, look, so I'm Muslim, I believe it to be true. Now, if you come up with real examples, chances are it won't knock my face. But if I believe something that's relatively delusional, I will constantly be offended by reality. And that's what I always say is if you're offended by reality, you have to reassess your truth. Because reality shouldn't offend you. Now, when Dave Chappelle makes a few jokes, he usually takes reality and throws it in the face of people that are, he thinks are warped of reality. And I just think, genuinely speaking, if you stand on truth, it won't be offended by reality. Reality will only confirm your truth. - I see people offended by the truth all the time. - Then they're holding onto a delusional belief. - I agree with that. But who gets to decide what's delusional? - Well, reality does, reality testing. So here's the thing. Like, for example, I watched Matt Walsh's What Is A Woman? And then he would ask people, what is a woman? And they're like, oh, you have to ask a woman. I'm not a woman, that doesn't do. There's no, they find biology offensive. And if you're finding reality offensive, then your truth is delusional. - But they're gonna say that you're delusional. So I'll steal men their side of the argument. - Yeah. - You're confusing biological sex with gender. And gender is generated in the brain and it is a spectrum. And so what you're calling a woman is really somebody that is a birthing person. I forget the verb it is.


What do insurance contracts for floating rates look like? (03:25:13)

But now what do you do with that? Because they believe that they are correct. - What I would say to that is, and if you believe gender is a psychological construct, why when you are a man that wants to be a woman, do you change your biology? - Yeah, I mean, I can give you an answer and I can steal men them till the end of time. But I think the real question to ask is, what should happen to somebody who is obviously wrong, but they're saying something? - Well, it's not that anything should happen to them. We should be-- - So they can keep saying it. - They can say it, but we shouldn't be tiptoeing around their delusion. - Oh, I think everybody should say what they think. Everyone should say whatever the fuck they want, quite frankly, as long as it doesn't inside violence. - They definitely shouldn't be legally sanctioned to tiptoe and offend the person who is detached from reality, which is what's starting to happen. - I take a different stance on that, which is that I don't think we want people determining what is true. I think, going back to my obsession, the key is that you don't want anybody who gets to be the arbiter of what is true, because that's where we run into trouble. I actually think the truth is oftentimes very difficult to ascertain. - You think the truth is subjective? - I don't think the truth is subjective. I think the truth is hard to identify. So think about Newton. So many people say he's the smartest man to ever live, but he was wrong about physics. But he was so close that we were able to pinpoint the movement of the stars, the heavens, and the earth and all that. Newtonian physics got us to the moon, but we needed Einstein's physics in order to create GPS, nuclear energy, atomic weapons, et cetera. So Newton was wrong, but it was still useful.


What's your audience of 4 million? (03:26:53)

Einstein is wrong, even though he moves us forward. But he still doesn't have a unified theory. Now imagine if everybody said, "Hey, hey, hey, Einstein, shut up." That's wrong. It doesn't make any sense. You need to stop with that, because that's what people did. When he first came up with the ideas, everybody thought he was out of his mind. And I think that is super dangerous. And yet humans do it all the time. So do you think the gender debate, we should ground it in reality or ground it in people's emotional responses to being offended? - I, oh, you can't ever do, hear me when I say, somebody getting offended is completely irrelevant. And this should all be about, I mean, depends like you're gonna have to break everything up into its subcategories. I think people should be able to live their lives however they want. I think people should be treated with respect. And I think that if you're putting forward something as true, we should be able to put it through the scientific method to find out if that actually is true. And everybody should champion that. Nobody should say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa." That is a thing that's beyond reproach. You can't question that. You should be able to question everything, everything. - And so like, should we put it through the biological testing of just gender, genitals, or should we just accept their reality with that? - That's gonna come down to entirely, why are we testing it? What are we trying to figure out? What's the purpose or the point? - What is the outcome? - What is the outcome that's bringing the question to bear? - I mean, I don't live in LA, so I don't know how big the debate is here, where I'm from and by this non-existent, but is it quite a big debate in America? - Day-to-day existence, I never encounter it. On the internet, I encounter it frequently. - On the internet, it seems like everybody in America doesn't know what gender means anymore. - It comes up in some very surprising moments. And I have my share of worries when it comes to kids. That's where I get concerned. - I always get concerned anytime that the biggest beneficiary of any law is a pharmaceutical. - That is probably a very reasonable thing to be skeptical of. So the only stance I will take is everyone should be able to question everything. So people should be able to question the pharmaceutical industry, they should be able to-- - Religion, everything. - Nothing should be beyond approach, and the scientific method should be our ultimate arbiter of truth when we need to pin something down. - So it's a way of testing validity. - Yeah, 'cause human flourishing, human flourishing. That's where I come down. - I agree. - For sure. - It's a long-winded way of agreeing, isn't it? - Yes. This has been incredibly fun. Sadia, where can people follow you? - @sadiasychology on YouTube, Instagram, and TikTok. I also have a Patreon where I give more of my extended information just solo, and can also answer questions on that if you have any. So that's where to find me.


Do you have a mentor? (03:30:13)

- I love it the most. All right, everybody, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe, and until next time, my friends, be legendary, take care, peace. Check out my conversation with Matthew Hussey to learn the three biggest reasons why most relationships do not last. Today on Impact Theory, relationship expert Matthew Hussey walks us through why the majority of relationships do not succeed. - Continuing to grow is one of the greatest.


About Mentorship

Do you have a mentor? What's tapering? (03:30:33)

every day.


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