Neuroscientist Explains How Your Brain Is Affected by Fear, Isolation & Anxiety | Moriel Zelikowsky | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Neuroscientist Explains How Your Brain Is Affected by Fear, Isolation & Anxiety | Moriel Zelikowsky".

1970-01-02T11:16:34.000Z

Note: This transcription is split and grouped by topics and subtopics. You can navigate through the Table of Contents on the left. It's interactive. All paragraphs are timed to the original video. Click on the time (e.g., 01:53) to jump to the specific portion of the video.


Introduction

Intro (00:00)

- Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Impact Theory. I'm here with Dr. Morial Zellikovsky. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm super excited.


Exploration Of Emotions And Social Aspects

What drew you to Emotion (00:13)

I'm all about neuroscience, so this should be a lot of fun. - Great to be here. - If you can, just give people a quick rundown on your background and what you do, just like a super quick nutshell. - Sure, an assistant professor of neurobiology at the University of Utah. And I work on neural circuits involved in emotion. Leleve and work doing a lot of work on social isolation. - Yeah, social isolation right about now is a pretty hot topic. What drew you to the science of emotion to begin with? - I've always kind of been interested in more and clinically relevant type of topics, and so, you know, nothing's really more clinically relevant than emotion, so. - And what do you mean, define clinically relevant for me?


What Drew You To the Science Of Emotion (00:52)

- I think these would be kind of topics of research where maybe what you investigate would eventually lead to a cure for something or treatment or things like that in regards to how the human brain works, kind of on an everyday scale. - And do you have anything specific that you're really drawn to, or just sort of, hey, let me dive into the world of emotion and see where this goes? - Yeah, so I mean, I started out looking at fear and memory, which I mean, I love the field of memory. I thought it's super interesting. For instance, when something really traumatic happens, how you store that memory across your whole lifespan and how it affects the way you encode new memories and interact with other members of your species and things like that. So I find that found it really interesting, both from a scientific perspective and understanding the neural circuits underlie that, but also just from understanding human beings better and why we do what we do and how we remember the things that happened to us. - Yeah, memory and forgetting is something that is extraordinarily interesting. So my wife will often joke with me that she wishes that she has my memory because I'm ultra forgetful in terms of emotional amplitude. So if something like really upset me, I'll still forget about it a day later or a week later. So I don't have baggage from my past. I don't hold on to past traumas, but it actually really frustrates me because I also don't remember a lot of things that I want to remember. - Oh, that's so interesting.


Memory and Forgetting (02:19)

- I've always looked at it as a curse and she's always, not always, but certainly as we got deeper into our marriage, she's really like, oh man, like how does that not wind you up? How are you not still pissed about that? And I'm like, that seems so weird to me, but I know that memories get basically tagged for either, hey, this is important, remember this or this is irrelevant, forget it. - Right. - So how does that dynamic of like stress? - I find that super interesting only because I feel like with most people, and they have an emotionally charged event, it's kind of seared into their memory in the first place. And then the more times you retrieve it, the more and more you're kind of solidifying that memory in your brain. So usually people remember these kinds of poignant, emotionally charged memories for a long period of time, whether they do still like perfectly accurately is another issue, but it's usually kind of the more trivial things that people don't remember. So I find that really interesting about you.


What's Your Primary Area Of Focus Right Now (03:19)

- And what's your primary area of focus right now? - Yeah. - Are you working with rats a lot? - Nice, nice. - So I think I would say for like experimental neuroscience, neurobiology, I don't know, maybe like 80% of the work is done in mice for a number of reasons or just like, great model organism. And they're genetically tractable, meaning you can actually, you know, breed them and look at certain genes and look at certain cell types and do kind of all the fancy stuff that we do nowadays in neuroscience. And the applicability to the human condition in brain is very, very high. - And the tests that you're running now, are they around fear or what are you working on right now that you're super excited about? - Yeah, so right now our lab is working on, we have a few projects in the lab and kind of most of them are circulating around this idea of social isolation and what happens to the brain and behavior when an animal is isolated for an extended period of time. And so we have a lot of kind of different projects looking at that.


Social Isolation (04:10)

And so the most, let's see, most exciting one recently that is going on in my lab is someone who's looking at the effects of isolation on mating behavior, which is kind of a little bit more, I would say maybe more fringe in terms of interest to the general public. But I think it's super interesting because he's also able to record mouse song. So it turns out mice will sing as a form of courtship to kind of get the female, you know, a male mouse will sing to kind of get the female interested in it. And so if the animals are isolated, it turns out that both the mating behavior is disrupted and also this song is disrupted. And so we're doing some pretty interesting experiments.


Do mice sing when they're lonely (05:01)

- Are they singing when they're alone, like trying to attract or when you put them back together and why they can't sing properly? - Male mice will sing to a female mouse as it's trying to court her. And it's not anything that any of us could hear with our naked ear. You need very special kind of ultrasonic vocalization equipment to be able to hear this song and to also analyze these very complex, you know, bands of frequency and song bursts and things like that that people have been doing in birds for years and years. And so now they're kind of starting to do it in mice and it's super interesting. - So is the song breaking down because they're essentially getting depressed? Is it because they're just out of practice? Like what's going on? - Yeah, that's a really good question. That's something they're working on. We have no idea why the song is being altered, though it does, I think, help to explain why they're not as successful mating. - I was gonna say, is it, I'm assuming less attractive, the women are less likely to respond to it?


Do depressed mice have high squeaky voices (05:49)

- Yeah, it's kind of like, you know, if you're at a bar when we used to go to bars and a guy's like, hey, you wanna go on a date versus like, hey, you wanna go on a date? It's what you go out with. The one who's, you know, frequency range is like really short and doesn't really have anything interesting going on with the one that's able to kind of put some more spice in their song or approach, so yeah. - Now, it becomes really easy to understand why humans put so much energy into, or why isolation is so problematic is a better way to say because we're such a social animal.


Why humans are social (06:19)

Are mice highly social? - Yes, mice are very, very social. And we work on mating, but I also work on, this has kind of been more of the bigger area for my research violence is a big, big thing that happens after social isolation. - Interesting. - Yeah, went out. - So they, when you bring them back together, they just wanna fuck shit up. - Yeah, they're extremely violent. And actually it's like one of the best models for looking at violence, which is what violence is originally interested in. So if you isolate almost any species you look at, if you isolate them, they will be more violent when you introduce them back with another member of their species. - That's weird.


What's the fascination with violence (07:06)

So what was the fascination around violence that led you to that? Just the thought of humans can be violent and let me figure out why? - It was that and it was kind of at the time where all these school shootings and things were really picking up. And not just school shootings, but all kinds of violent behavior. It was really not being looked at so much at a neurobiological perspective. So I was super interested in why, how people can become really, really violent. And then when you start looking into the past of those kinds of people who are shooters and things, there's either a history of mental health or social isolation or something like that. So.


Neurobiology of social isolation + aggression in mice (07:40)

- All right, well break it down for me in terms of the neuroscience. So what's going on at a neurochemistry level or a wiring level as you isolate, and obviously we're extrapolating from ice into humans, but as we were living through a period of such unimaginable isolation, like this seems like a pretty important question to get to the bottom of, because already we're seeing pockets of violent outbursts. - Yep. - And is this going to escalate? Would be a pretty reasonable question to ask. So what happens during isolation? - Yeah, well, I was gonna say one thing to add is during, after isolation, animals are way more violent, but there's a host of other things that happen too. For instance, they're extremely persistent in their fear responses. So normally you might be afraid if you hear a car backfiring or the sound of a car honking, you might be afraid for a second, but if you've been isolated, that kind of persists beyond the kind of normal window for you to be afraid. So this enhanced fear persistence, this enhanced aggression, and then you have abnormalities really interacting with other members of your species. So if you're kind of given access to another friend mouse or a new mouse, you're not gonna really spend that much time with it. Or for humans, you might not really be that interested in interacting with the novel member of your species and kind of show more hesitation there. So that's, there's just some of the behavioral- - That part I get, I get why the novel person would become more worrisome. You're going back to the mating thing, you sort of out of practice, maybe you've lost your groove a bit. But when I think about reintroducing somebody that you knew already, and you still don't go spend as much time with them, do you know, like, are we seeing just the receptors for oxytocin are disappearing off the cells? Like, why? - Yeah, that's a great question. So I think, I think, you know, there's some stuff that we know and then there's a lot that we don't know. One thing that we know for sure is that this one neuropeptide that I've worked on called tachykinin2 is heavily upregulated across many regions of the brain following social. - And so, taktu, what give me some info? What does it do? - It's kind of like a neuropeptide. So you might, lots of people know about neuromodulators like dopamine or serotonin. These are all the ones that, you know, drugs for depression and anxiety disorders are all based on. And these are just kind of like a smaller, what you'd think of as a smaller class of those. - And is it like oxytocin feels fucking awesome? Some people refer to it as the bonding hormone. Is it positive, negative? - That's a good question, but it's, again, it's one of these smaller neuropeptide systems. So it doesn't have these kinds of light. You can't just kind of generalize and say that it does X, you know, makes you happy, makes you sad. So it's a expression is way more restricted than some of these other ones. So the good news is if you find something that it does that's important or useful, that's great. And the other set side of the good news is that you're not gonna be doing something that kind of affects the whole brain if you wanna target this system. So, you know, some of the other systems like for instance, serotonin, you know, there's some great benefits. Obviously people are using antidepressants, you know, developed decades ago, targeting serotonin and reuptake.


Neuropeptide TAAR2 (Targeted Activation of a Rat2) (10:51)

But the downside is it's you're targeting it all over the brain. And, you know, serotonin has sometimes opposite effects depending on where you look. So these neuropeptide systems are nice in the way, in the sense that you can kind of target smaller populations of neurons and system, a system in the brain that's way less kind of, how do I say ubiquitous? So, yeah. - So now, did you say that TAC-2 is increase or decrease in isolation? - Yeah, so it's increased after isolation. And it's kind of-- - And what do we think the point of that? What's it pointing at? - Yeah, that's a good point. So I think, you know, there's a few ways of looking at it. One is that it's kind of acting in this kind of coordinated manner, much like someone who leads an orchestra, leads the whole orchestra by his, you know, direction. And so you see it elevated in multiple regions and you can kind of think of it like a web of increased activity that allows the brain to coordinate a response to social isolation that includes many different things. So for instance, the enhanced violence, the persistent fear, the alterations in mating, those kinds of things might be a coordinated response and this is one of the way it could be coordinated, which is just this elevation of this peptide across the brain. - Okay, well that's maybe troubling. So we have a conductor who's stepping in, but what he's conducting is antisocial behavior, aggression, sort of being antisocial. So it's interesting. So okay, you said there were a few things that we knew. So one we know TAC-2 is elevated, the conductor's in there, he's telling us to do things, but we also know that the behaviors that we're seeing on the outside, so if TAC-2 is conducting, it's conducting some gnarly stuff. - Right. - So we have-- - Yeah, so I think that's-- - What? - That's a really good point. And I think it kind of ties back into the idea that this kind of social isolation, where, and I'm talking mostly about when you are fully isolated, like no other single person, no partner in nothing, you're by yourself, have been in your apartment and haven't seen anyone in two weeks at all. And I think that is not a normal situation.


The impacts of extended isolation. (12:56)

Not for humans, not for mice, not for many species. So most of the time you're interacting with other members of your species and so you wouldn't have this kind of explosive response in your brain or in your behavior. So I think these systems that are usually probably quite adaptive for regulating fear, which is great, and certain to certain degree, 'cause it lets you survive and avoid dangerous things. And also probably being able to be aggressive and protect your territory for an animal, protect your mate, that's something that's adaptive. And so it's really when these things are kind of go awry or out of control, that it's not adaptive anymore. So it's not that the system was kind of maybe designed to do this in some kind of functionally beneficial way, but more, it's more that the system that's usually adaptive at low levels is kind of in hijacked in these situations that are what I would consider abnormal for a social species. - And when do you see this stuff start to regulate? Like, is it, hey, they're violent and antisocial for a day? And then they begin to normalize, they get their song back or-- - No, it's kind of, it's a long-term thing. In fact, when you're only isolated for a day or so, you have a lot of actually opposite effects. So if you've kind of been in your apartment stuck in there for a day or two, working on a project by yourself, you seek out social interaction after and you have a lot of kind of positive type of interactions with other members of your species. It's really only when this persists for a long period of time that you kind of slip into this state that's not adaptive or beneficial at all in terms of-- - And in the lab, how are we defining a long time? - Yeah, so in the lab with mice, it takes about two weeks, which, you know, I'm just trying to think, you know, they're usually like lived a year and a half or two years. So you might, that might be like times 50 for humans. So I don't know, but it's hard, you know, it's hard to like make that exact analogy. That's, I don't like making those analogies. - Do you have any sense of like, what we should expect from the unintentional social, social isolation experiment that we're running now? So we're recording this, we're what, month five? - Yeah. - Of COVID lockdown. So is there, you know, do you have a guess on where our breaking point is? - Yeah, that's a really good question. I have no idea. I think there's another big thing that, you know, is a factor, especially with humans, two things that are a factor with humans. One is that the notion of kind of social media and Skype and Zoom and all these ways that we are staying connected. So to what degree does that actually help to mitigate those feelings of loneliness? It's hard to say, you know, teenagers have been using, the new generation of teenagers have been using social media for years and years and yet they report feeling more lonely than ever. So is that how people are feeling in general right now with social media or is it actually helping to mitigate some of the effects of social isolation? So that's one thing. And I think that would, that definitely requires kind of more cognitive psychology experiments and lots of studies in humans and things like that. And that's much harder to model in a model organism in the lab because yeah, it's like kind of specific human thing. And then the other issue is how you are isolating. So some people are at home with their immediate family which probably seems really frustrating sometimes but is also probably really beneficial. So in the lab if you have a mouse that's with just one other mouse, it mitigates tons of the effects of social isolation versus people who are in a situation where they are totally alone in their apartment right now. So I think that's gonna also be a very big difference which is like people who have a small little support group versus those that have zero. So. - Yeah, that, when you look at what's going on now in terms of people feeling like they're being sort of locked up against their will and it's like who am I even pushing back on because I can push back on the government but if I go out and I get sick, it's like the virus doesn't really care. So in some ways it's not even people telling me to stay home it's just and I'll speak for myself. Nobody needs to tell me to stay home as much as I would now at this point like to go back out. It's I just don't wanna get sick. And so and I really don't wanna bring it home to my wife. And so there's no one even to like rail against. - Right. Yeah and I think that's what it's like. - So I want my block of wood to chew. - That lack of control is hard, yeah. - Walk me through the anatomy, maybe the wrong word but walk me through the anatomy both literally and figuratively of fear. - Oh yeah, so fear has come along away but yeah, I think the kind of classic anatomy that people recognize with the fear is them and Dola which is like this small part of your brain shaped like an almond and that's kind of been at the forefront or center of the fear, literature and research for a long, long time.


Deep Dive Into Fear And Stress

Anatomy of fear. (17:48)

And so since then as I was saying earlier in the interview there's lots of tools that let you look at different cell populations in the brain with a much kind of finer tooth comb. And so because of that people have started to find different subregions of the amygdala. So a lateral part, a medial part, a basal part, things like that that kind of do different components or are involved in different components of a fear response. And then within those regions there are certain populations of neurons that are involved in, you know, increasing fear, decreasing fear, things like that. So that's come along way. - What's the part that decreases fear and how do we take control of that? - Right, so that's actually, it's the same part. So kind of more recently people started looking at the central amygdala, I shouldn't even say more recently, maybe like 10 years, which is a subdivision of this kind of amygdala structure. And people have found cells there that are kind of active during a fear inducing stimulus and cells that are active when that stimulus turns off. So there are cells there that in theory do the complete opposite of emit or control of fear response. And so that kind of gets at why it's super interesting and useful that we have these new tools because in the past you could just mess up one brain region and say, oh, these animals aren't afraid or for instance, I think in humans there's a very rare condition where the amygdala gets calcified and those patients are not afraid at all. - That's so crazy. - So crazy. And it's actually very dangerous for them. - Now walk me through how, so if you had asked me when I was 18 about fear, I probably would have said, yeah, yeah, if I could get rid of it totally, I would. - Right. - And then I read a study about emotions and how we actually can't make decisions without emotions. And 'cause you can walk through the logic of it all day but there's nothing to parse whether like a tuna sandwich is better than a pizza. - Right, okay. - And when there's no emotion, be like, yo, pizza's rad, you literally can't do it. And so they'll just stand there all day, they can give you the benefits and ultimately you just have to tell them to eat one. What is going on? Like what do we use fear for? Why is it bad to not have fear? Like I get it if they're like, oh, they don't recognize it, getting hit by a car would suck or whatever. But are there more nuanced ways that fear is actually advantageous and adaptive? - Yeah, I mean, I think pretty much in every, everywhere you look, you could see that fear would be adaptive.


Fear is adaptive (20:37)

So yeah, you know, there's the obvious cases where you wanna be afraid of fires or very dangerous kind of environmental stimuli. There's less obvious cases where you wanna be afraid in situations where you might sense something's off or wrong and you can't even really put your finger on it. You probably wanna be afraid if you're in a crowd of like lots of people and everyone's pointing a gun at you. There's like, there's tons of cases where you might wanna be afraid or aware of the danger in a given situation. So. - Yeah, I guess the physical dangers I get, those, you know, obviously like a gun or a car or something like that, that I get. I'm wondering, yeah, like is there something like fear being hurt makes you make wiser decisions, like being able to forecast into the future and saying, I'm afraid of not being able to feed my family. 'Cause like I'm thinking about, part of the reason that I would have said when I was younger that I would for sure eliminate fear, if I could, was fear at a physiological level for me, fear turns into anxiety, which turns into the blood leaving my prefrontal cortex. And I like, I, when I, so I went through debilitating anxiety. And I remember at one point saying to my wife, when I don't have any anxiety, I feel like a superhero. I feel like I can think through things, I can be witty, I can solve problems. And when I have anxiety, I feel absolutely moronic. Like I actually can't think.


The blood leaving the prefrontal cortex (22:09)

And so I just like, I get this like flustered feeling. It's so weird. Now once I understood that the blood was literally leaving my prefrontal cortex. And so my higher level cognition was actually shutting down. It was like, okay, that makes sense. So there, it's like, well the anxiety, I mean, anxiety might be public speaking, or it's not something life-threatening, at least not in a modern context. And so because it seems to so easily get out of control, it's like, I wanna sort of better understand if it's, and maybe I just answered my own question, but if thinking through things like being able to predict the future, break down, if you don't have fear. - Yeah, that's a really good point. I would probably argue even for those situations, a little bit of fear is good. And you gave the example of public speaking. So you're like in the back of the stage, you're about to go give a talk to a huge audience or something like that. I think like a few minutes before, kind of getting your heart rate up, feeling a little bit, I wouldn't say really afraid, but kind of like a little anxious about your about to go talk in front of a bunch of people, pumping up that adrenaline and then going out there, I think can actually be really beneficial. But I think with a lot of these kinds of more, what you're talking about is psychogenic fear and anxiety. - Oh yeah, talk to people, what's the difference between fear and psychogenic fear? - Oh, I just mean, so we were talking about fear, kind of produced by physical stimuli in the environment. Like someone pointing a gun at you or something like that, versus fear produced by something kind of more in your mind or what you think of-- - 'Cause some of the studies on psychogenic stress are incredibly interesting. And it's like if you translate psychogenic, and let me know if you agree with this, if you translate psychogenic to self-induced, then it's like, okay, this gets interesting.


Physiogenic Stress (23:48)

And to me, it's psychogenic is the Shakespeare quote, nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so. And so, when you start getting into physiological stress, you're working too hard, you're running, you got punched like, okay, those are legitimate stressors that can be measured sort of as having, or they have a physical cause. Oftentimes, externally, when you think about psychogenic stress, now you've got somebody who's, they didn't get enough likes on their photo, and now they're spinning out of control, or they're isolated, and now they're telling themselves a story about unworthiness. Walk me through like, and maybe this feeds into PTSD, I'll actually be interested to hear, like how we end up amplifying the problem for ourselves. - Yeah, I mean, I think with humans, there's that disorder generalized anxiety disorder, where it's like, you start amplifying it, and then even just feeling your heart beating fast can generate its own anxiety disorder. So it's kind of this like vicious cycle where it's out of control in that sense. But yeah, I think, psychogenic stress, I think, very quickly, you can go from these low levels that are adaptive to these very high maladaptive levels that make it difficult for you to function, make it difficult for you to feel, on top of your game, or that you're doing, using all of your skills and resources well, or something like that. So I think it feels very paralyzing when you hit a point of excessive fear and anxiety for most people.


Treating PTSD (25:33)

- And have you looked into like how people begin to unwind this? Like, how do you, if somebody has PTSD, which I know you've looked into a lot, how do we begin to back out of that? - Yeah, so I think like, this still kind of the most typical therapy for PTSD is some form of exposure therapy. It's the same for other phobias. So if you're afraid of flying, you can go to a clinic and get in a fake airplane and kind of do that repeatedly over and over, and in a form of exposure therapy, or cognitive behavioral exposure therapy, where you kind of relive the traumatic event, or experience the cues that predict trauma without the trauma itself. So that's fairly typical. - How does that help? - So, I mean, it's actually a lot of that's also based on rodent research. And so what you do when you do exposure therapy is you build a new memory. So a memory that actually I can get in this airplane and everything's gonna be fine. I can drink my wine and eat the crackers or whatever. I can get on this plane, and actually the world's not gonna end, it's gonna be okay. So that's, you're really forming a second new memory there. And a lot of people have worked on that. It's called, you know, extinction learning or what we think of as exposure therapy. And during that new learning, you can again, learn that the plane doesn't mean some terrible is gonna happen. And then those two memories compete. One that getting on an airplane, you know, leads to something terrible, and the other that getting an airplane usually leads to everything being fine and great. And so by doing exposure therapy, you're really kind of just strengthening that extinction memory and, you know, kind of making that memory the primary one that you retrieve when you get on an airplane. The problem with PTSD is unlike other kind of traditional phobias, it's pretty resistant to that type of exposure of therapy. And that's why so many people still work on it. So other, you know, therapies for people who are scared of snakes or scared of planes and stuff have worked pretty well, but kind of these therapies for people who've experienced some very horrific and debilitating trauma usually don't work that well, or if they work, it's pretty short term. So lots of people are still trying to understand it and, you know, why some of these classic exposure therapy methods aren't working and what we can do instead to kind of treat people with PTSD. - So in your work on emotions, what's one thing you've come across that you wish everybody knew?


What does Moran's research tell about emotions? (27:51)

- That I wish everybody knew? - Yeah, that might be useful for people. - I actually have a super weird experiment that I ran while I was a postdoc at Caltech. And so I don't know, let's see if how this comes across, it's pretty weird. So I was doing an experiment kind of looking at this model of PTSD, and I just thought, I thought, oh, I know, I have an idea. This is totally an example of like anthropomorphizing stuff. I thought, I have an idea. If I give a bunch of these animals PTSD and then put them back together, it'll help mitigate the effects kind of like when you go to a support group for, you know, where everyone else is stuff for trauma and you talk about it and it seems to make people, it seems to result in better outcomes for people and things like that. So I took some animals, I gave them all PTSD and put them back together. And the next day when I went in, not all of them were even alive. They were, they viciously attacked each other. It was horrible. - Whoa. - Their symptoms were even worse than they were if they just hadn't gone back with other kind of members of their species that had the trauma. And I was very surprised and I was like, whoa, what is going on here? And then I decided to run another experiment to follow up on that where only one of the animals got traumatized and then I put it back into the cage with its litter mates that had not been traumatized. And that seemed to really alleviate the effects of the trauma. So you could really kind of get over the effects of that trauma or reduce those effects of trauma by interacting with and being exposed to others and being social, but not others who'd had trauma themselves. And so. - Whoa, that gave me the chills. What do you think is going on? Is there like eye show aggression because I have PTSD and then the other person shows aggression? - It's probably something like that. It's probably, they all had the same kind of trauma. So there might be an argument that when you're in a group for other survivors of trauma, you have such different experiences that you're able to kind of gain perspective and feel healthy from that interaction. Perhaps if you guys were all in the same bad place at the same time, you would associate those people also at the bad place, I'm not sure. But it kind of did make me think, oh, maybe it makes sense instead of going to support groups is might make more sense to like go hang out with like your three closest buddies that are like pretty psychologically stable and that might be actually the better thing for you to do. Yeah, that was very surprising and weird. - I could talk to you forever.


Connecting With Moran

Where to find Moran (30:43)

Thank you so much for taking the time today. Where can people connect with you and see what you're up to? - I have a lab website, zellacoffskylab.com and you can find me there. Yeah, I'm not really too much on Facebook. My Instagram is mostly my climbing stuff. So I wouldn't tell anyone to go there. Yeah, and then I'm on Twitter also at Moriel Z. - Love it, awesome. Moriel, thank you so much for joining me today. It was amazing. Guys, if you're not learning about neuroscience, I really think you're missing a trick. Dive in, she's got amazing stuff. Obviously what she's doing in her lab is so fascinating, emotions are so critical. So do check it out. And if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Most of us believe that we see reality as it is. When we look up and see the moon, it's because there really is a moon and it would exist even if there were no observers to see the moon, it would still exist.


Great! You’ve successfully signed up.

Welcome back! You've successfully signed in.

You've successfully subscribed to Wisdom In a Nutshell.

Success! Check your email for magic link to sign-in.

Success! Your billing info has been updated.

Your billing was not updated.