The Anti-Aging Protocol To REVERSE AGING & Live Over 120+ YEARS OLD | Bryan Johnson | Transcription
Transcription for the video titled "The Anti-Aging Protocol To REVERSE AGING & Live Over 120+ YEARS OLD | Bryan Johnson".
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- The Fountain of Youth is a story as old as humanity. And typically it's a group of people on a boat going to a jungle in some sacred temple and some elixir. And that's kind of been really what people believe more generally a magic pill is going to come that we take and it solves the problems. And what I wondered is, is the ability to slow the rate of aging and then reversing aging that has occurred possible now is just hiding in tens of thousands of scientific publications and a lot of really hard work. And so that's what my team and I have been doing for the past two years is collecting all the research, doing all the protocols and basically using evidence-based medicine to explore this question. What is possible with today's science? - So in just like yes or no format, do you really believe where we're going that we will actually be able to meaningfully reverse aging? I'm not saying that we'll all be able to get to 18, but like, is this really a thing now? - Yes. - I love that you were thoughtful about that. I'm going to say something, I don't know if you're going to love this or hate this. So we've spent time together before, but it's been years since I've seen you. And I mean this in a really good way, but you look like a Lord of the Rings elf. And like, dude, there's something about the clarity in your skin, the vibrant senior eyes, I don't know. So I'm really, really interested in slowing down aging, reversing aging, I come at it the same way that you do. If when I lay my head down, I think I want to wake up tomorrow, then why would I not want this ride to end? We can get into some of the complexities of the question of, "Ottwe do that later?" But I really do want to get deep into the protocol. So as I said to you when you first arrived, senior on camera does not do justice to what it's like to see you in person. In terms of just the externally visible markers of health, really do like, it does something to my brain to be like, "Oh, this person looks healthy." So the protocol, I've watched a lot of your videos on this. You've gone into tremendous depth about the blueprint, which I assume is the blueprint on how to live in a way that slows down aging and possibly at some point will reverse it. But what is the protocol?
Well-Being And Personal Development
Is the reverse aging blueprint for everyone? (02:19)
It is very complex. So I'd love to, before we get into the minutia, what's the organizing principle to the blueprint? - That if you can measure every organ of the body and let the organs speak about what it wants to be in an ideal state, reference gold standard scientific evidence and then create a protocol and then have perfect adherence, you create a system where the body can maintain itself in an optimal state. And this is in contrast to, typically, we approach things in life where we think our brain is the primary tool which solves all problems before us. But my brain, as most brains do, is a cause of a lot of self-destructive behavior. We are prone to eat too much food or of the wrong kind of food or drink or other substances or spend too much time consuming content, not prioritizing sleep. And so the solution for me was to take my mind, it was very counterintuitive, remove my mind as a problem-solving tool, empower my body by measurement through my entire body and then looking at the evidence. And so letting my body solve its own problems of how to be in the ideal state is the protocol. And so I just simply follow the data and so we look at all the things you would imagine, like blood, stool, urine, saliva, MRI, ultrasound, fitness tests, DNA methylation, microbiome, everything we can measure, we measure. And we take all that data, we look at the evidence and we just do this again and again. And so my responsibility in this is to ensure perfect adherence to the protocol and we can see how these things work in an iterative basis. - I heard you say that sleep and diet are probably the two most important things. Is that a true assessment, given all the data you've looked at now?
Stop bad behaviors and get good sleep. (04:06)
- It's difficult to make too strong of statements about power laws in the entirety because most people reasonably look at this and they see that it's not doable for the average person. - Yeah, watch your protocol, I will say that, like I've got the resources to pull it off. I've even got the discipline, but I was like, this is a lot, it's a lot. So especially the part about needles in the face. That's where I was like, oh God. So we'll get to that in a minute, but it's okay. It's hard to break down the power law. - Your point is correct. If you're going to get just a few things right, sleep. I'd say stop self-destructive behavior and get good sleep. If you don't even have to eat vegetables, berries and nuts, like that would be an advanced thing. Just stop doing things that hurt you because when you do things that cause self-destructive behavior, it's so hard that that ruins your sleep, which then ruins your willpower to do, be able to do good things. It's just a vicious cycle. So sleep well, stop bad behaviors and it gives you, gets you in a neutral position to feel like you can start doing some positive things here. I think gain some momentum. It's ironically, it's a lot of people, we all know this. If we go to the gym and work out, we feel good about ourselves. And later in the day, we want to reward ourselves. And sometimes we reward ourselves in a way that offsets what happened in the beginning of the good thing. So really the root of it is trying to get at this self-destructive tendencies we have. - Okay, so I'll make a hypothesis about what the self-destructive behaviors are and why we do them and tell me where I go wrong. So I look at everything to the lens of biology. So you're having a biological experience. I want that on my tombstone. Like I really want people, if I die and you don't solve this problem, I really want people to understand that and to look at life through that lens. So they figure out, okay, what you're calling self-destructive behavior, there was a biological root to that. So if I were to sum up quickly, the biggest problem people make is that they, I'll round it to, they eat a lot of sugar and processed foods. And if they, that's like the biggest sin that everybody does in terms of self-harm. And to undo that, they have to understand that the thing that's driving them to do that is that your brain was created over millions of years of evolution where food was really hard to come by. And if you came by something that was calorically dense, that you were gonna go after it as hard as you could, remove the breaks as much as possible, overeat over consume. And that food is, it's not a calorie as a calorie, food is signaling molecules, or food are signaling molecules, whichever. And so they're gonna tell your body to do certain things. And the things that you're prone to overeating because they were so rare are typically things that make you put on fat and that are gonna spike your glucose, which then causes a huge dump of insulin, which then has a whole host of problems. So it's like, whenever, like if I had, you have 30 seconds to tell your younger self or you have to impact somebody, I'd be like, stop eating sugar, get a lot of sleep, and believe that you can get better, which we'll set that aside for now. But it's like, are we close? Like if we really had to dumb this down, or is it, no, no, no, like there's just something else entirely that is the root of cell farm. - I like your articulation. It seems like you identified a version of yourself or someone else that you identify with. I did the same thing with me where I said, I'm a whole bunch of different kinds of Brian's. I'm six a.m. Brian, when I wake up, I'm excited about the day. I'm seven p.m. Brian, when I'm stressed out, I'm out of energy and I just wanna relax and do nothing and maybe have some food I shouldn't be eating. There are different versions of ourselves. And in these different versions, we behave different ways. So in my case, it was seven p.m. Brian that was the disaster. That he would overeat, eat the wrong kind of stuff, that I wouldn't be able to sleep, and I felt awful the next day. And so it helped for me to think about this. We think of ourselves as the most intelligent species on this planet. Yet, we commit, we have behaviors that accelerate disease and aging and misery and cloud our minds and they dampen our conscious experience. Yet, even though we do these things, we've normalized it to make it okay, where we celebrate it, we encourage it. If it's a social norm that's challenged, we try to ostracize a person or make them feel like they're out of step. And if we can muster up the greatest sobriety possible about this, it's a little insane. We commit self-destructive behavior. - I agree. So do you feel, I feel like the battle line is very clear. It's you versus your evolutionary impulses. Is that how you read it or is there something else going on? - I think you're certainly correct that there's probably a lot that has to do with where we've been as a species. A lot of social norms where it's okay to do the things you were talking about, eat a tremendous amount of sugar or to drink excessively or to stay up and not prioritize sleep or any number of things. - What do you think about weed?
Aging best and multiple versions of ourselves. (09:26)
- That's like the most socially acceptable thing. Like in the world right now, it's crazy. You wanna talk about celebrating self-destructive behavior. People talk about it like it's the coolest shit ever and I won't say that I haven't done it, but I will say that the times I have done it, I wasn't like, I'm so fucking cool. I was like, this is a trade off and I am diminishing future potential for today pleasure. So when you think about, it's interesting. There's a nested idea inside your mind of watching enough of your content that I think I have a read on it. But before we get to the very complex, because people may not know for everybody watching right now that you also own a company called Colonel, which is trying to, I'm gonna use words that you haven't used, but effectively read and write in the language of neurology. I'm not sure how you would phrase that, but to be able to see how we think so that we can also write in the brain. God, I'm really reaching now. But that feels like directionally where you're headed. - It's well said. - Nice, okay, so this is really interesting. Okay, so going back one gigantic idea at a time here. So, sticking with the blueprint, the protocol for change, we have these evolutionary impulses, they lead us to do really dumb things. That has created a society where we now celebrate behavior that is very fraught in terms of being self-destructive, certainly from an aging perspective, and also probably from just a mental health, how do you feel about yourself perspective? - So, taking the things you've already talked about, okay, so there's multiple brines, there's multiple all of us. Jordan Peterson was the first person I heard talk about this about you have entire personalities around when you're hungry, when you're tired, when you're intoxicated, if you have addictive personality, like it becomes a whole set of behaviors. And I think that's really interesting. So you have all these brines, you had one brine, seven PM brine, that was causing a lot of self-harm for all the other brines. You are hyper logical, so despite having these human foibles, you were able to override that with some logic and go in and say, "I'm gonna remove that from the equation, and I'm gonna use data." And I'm going, how many organs are in the body, by the way? - 78. - Okay, it depends on how you classify them. - That's already fascinating. Okay, so you're the only person I've ever heard talk about, I'm gonna read data from all 78 organs, I didn't think we had that many, so I was already a little startled. But I'm going to read the data from these 78 organs, and that's gonna tell me what behavior I, God, would you say can and can't do, ought and ought not to do? Like what word do you use there? - It's a beautiful question, and it's at the heart of all of this. So I love how you framed out the collection of ideas. If we put this, then even a broader basket. What I really think is interesting for all of us to ponder is we zoom out on planet Earth, and we say, what is really going on? Let's just remove all the noise we can. It's quiet the room as much as possible. What is really happening? And it could be the rise of computational intelligence. We call it AI. It's this new form of information and knowledge and creativity and all the things, and we're giving birth to it. So there's a question as this new form of intelligence emerges in the world, what does that mean for us?
Goal alignment. (12:59)
What does it mean for all things? And in contemplating this, it might be wise for us to ask, what should we aspire to as a species? How do we get ourselves pointed in the right direction? And so blueprint is not, it may seem about health and wellness and diet and food is really not. It's my best guess at the ideal way for all of us to prepare ourselves to walk into this future. And that starts with, I guess what I call goal alignment. So if I think about myself as a 78 organ system, before it was balkanized and at war with itself. So I committed these self-destructive behaviors. When my mind wanted a pizza party and drinks, my kidney wasn't asking for that, and my liver wasn't, and all my DNA methylation wasn't. And so there was a war within me going on, this misalignment, and I had to figure out how could I achieve world peace inside of me? And that was when you let these organs speak and everyone can say, I want this in an ideal state and then you help the reconciliation process. This mirrors what we're doing with planet Earth. We treat the Earth as we treat our bodies. It's the same relationship. And if we want to think about how could we potentially cooperate on a global scale? How could we potentially imagine ourselves walking into this future with computational intelligence? It starts with our ability to align ourselves in these interesting ways. And for me, it was removing my mind, which was the cause of self-destructive behavior, enabling a system to take care of me. This is the fundamental question I wanted to propose. If I could build a system that could better care for me than I'm able, what'd I say yes to it? And I did. Now there's all kinds of ways you can slice that up because a lot of people will say, well, does that mean you can no longer have your pasta with friends? Does that mean you can no longer, and there's a very long list of things that they say, I'm familiar with this. I perceive these things that cause me joy. If I can't have these things, I don't know why I would exist. So it's just a knee-joke reaction. It's temporary and people work the way around it. But this is really the fundamental question we're all thinking about. And to me, it's worth our attention. It definitely, we are in a situation where we would benefit by ruminating that we are in a special moment of time. And we probably don't want to be caught being behind. - Okay, so caught being behind would look something like, we're trying to create artificial intelligence. And as we're recording this, AI is at the elbow of the exponential curve and people are freaking out in good and bad ways because of how rapidly it's happening now. And this is certainly the first time where I've really been consciously paying attention to something where I see the elbow happen and it breaks the prediction machine that is the brain and that's unnerving.
Goal alignment with AI and humans (16:01)
Now I'm optimistic about it, but you're on to something here which is really fascinating which, and I've heard you say this before, people talk about for AI to work, we have to get goal alignment between humans and AI. So the AI doesn't run into the paperclip problem where it's like, oh sorry, bro, but your atoms would be way better as paper clips. And so I'm just gonna destroy you to get at those atoms. So I can make more paper clips. And you said goal alignment with AI, we don't even have goal alignment with ourselves. - That's right. - Okay. - So let alone between each other. - Right, yeah. Which if you've been in a marriage, you know, immediately, like there's a lot of goal alignment that goes along there that you're gonna have to constantly be working on which is utterly fascinating. Okay, so you have made, ooh, I'm gonna say it in a provocative way, take it apart as you see fit. You have made a deity of data. And I think inside of all of us, there is a God-shaped hole. It has not played out as a religion in my life not since I was a teenager. I don't know. I know that you were brought up deeply religious, whether I don't know if that echo doesn't adult or not. But does that sound right or am I missing something? - I would use an example a few years ago, I was in the Middle East with a country leader and he offered up his country's 2030 plans. And this was in 2017, I believe. And I said, that's fascinating that you would be planning 13 years in advance. At the time, I was deeply involved in my venture investing in synthetic biology, nanotech, computational therapeutics. So I knew from the trenches what was going on in those worlds, from machine learning and AI through the biology. And I said, how do you think you can possibly plan that far in advance? And he said, like, how would you think about it? Just as a playful gesture. And I said, okay, let's imagine, let's play a game. We have two robots. And the goal is to get the robot to the furthest sand dune on the horizon. We can barely see it. We can do one of two things. One is we can take a topographical map of the sand dunes, program the map into the robot and say, go robot to that sand dune. Now we know what's gonna happen. In a few minutes, it's gonna be stuck in the sand because the sands are going to shift. The map is gonna change. The other thing we do is we say, okay, robot, we're gonna give you the tools to navigate the sand no matter what happens. So as these landscape changes, as we know it will, it navigates its way to these endpoints. And so all you have to do is point in a general direction. And that's really what this entire thing is with blueprint is I've basically just said, my body is a system with tools to navigate terrain as it moves along. So measurement, science, protocol. Now the science is going to get better. The measurement's gonna get better and it just improves again and again and again. But my body is not subject to the same problems of self-destructive behavior where it can't move forward. I've tried to put myself, my body in a position where it can have compounded gains. So as technology improves, my body improves at the same rate of the technology. And in this case, it's slowing my rate of aging and reversing the aging that's happened. Now there may be chances where we start talking about enhancement, where we build technologies and society. But if we start thinking about ourselves that we really care to go together to this distant point on the horizon, we want systems that allow us to move through changing terrain. But we don't want it are these maps that assume certain things. And so this is the zeroth principle thinking. So when you say a god of data, I would say to me this is a philosophy of zeroism. You're gonna have to tell people what that means. - So the idea is, talent hits the target that no one else can. Genius hits the target no one can see. Talent is first principle thinking. So you survey the world, you identify everything you can know in a given timeframe and you just, you know those basic things, you make decisions. Zeroth principle thinking, you can't even see the target. And so this is like Einstein's special theory relativity where he gave birth to something that already existed, but just changes everything. Or when AlphaGo played Lisa at all in AlphaGo, it played moves in the game of Go that could have been played by humans, but no human did. And so humans saw these moves, it broke their brains and they said it's as if an intelligence from another dimension were playing the game of Go. So first principle thinking is genius. It's a talent that no one else can see. And so the hypothesis is, with the emergence of computational intelligence, it introduces zeroth principle breakthroughs at a rate faster than humans have. It changes the landscape more and faster than we have been. So we're going to enter into a zeroth principle world where the lamp is going to change faster and faster in ways we don't anticipate. It's going to surprise us continually in the same way Lisa at all was stunned with AlphaGo's play. We're going to feel the same way. And so the idea for this is let's try to zoom on planet Earth, look at the situation we're in of what's really going on. Let's adopt systems of evolving ourselves and improving ourselves so we can roll with all these changes, no matter how the terrain shifts, and we can move into this future of zeroth principle. We don't know what it's going to be. We can't imagine it.
Dominating your high achieving career goals (21:56)
It's beyond our own imagination. It's a, and so it's really an effort to say, we can recognize the special moment we're in. We can create systems where everyone wins and we can shed the characteristics of ourselves that no longer service like self-destructive behaviors. That's really what I'm trying to do the entirety. So it's about the future of human existence, ironically or humorously, begins by eating broccoli. And by letting your organs run the system versus your mind. The truth is hitting your career goals is not easy. You have to be willing to go the extra mile to stand out and do hard things better than anybody else. But there are 10 steps I want to take you through that will 100x your efficiency so you can crush your goals and get back more time into your day. You'll not only get control of your time, you'll learn how to use that momentum to take on your next big goal. To help you do this, I've created a list of the 10 most impactful things that any high achiever needs to dominate. And you can download it for free by clicking the link in today's description. All right my friend, back to today's episode. - Okay, I think there's more to talk about with how you're getting, I think you're getting compliance in yourself because you believe so much in the data's ability to lead you to maybe it's zero principle thinking where we're able to completely come up with something that we otherwise would not have.
Our bodies need nutrient-rich food (23:15)
But before we get lost in that far more philosophical conversation, I'll bring us back to the actual protocol itself. So you've brought a bunch of food. This is stuff I assume you've done a daily basis. I've heard you say you basically the same thing every day. So pull me down into what the data is showing. So we have 78 organs. They're all saying they want something. Do they want the same thing? Like is there one protocol that matches everything? Or is it like we're doing 78 different things every day hoping that it comes together somehow? - Yeah, this is, yeah so my diet every day is roughly 2,000 calories. So it's a 25% calorie reduction of what I would normally consume. So I'm on a caloric fiction diet. - So you're hungry all the time? - I'm hungry all the time. - In fact, let me ask you really fast before we get into this. Does your life suck? - I've never been happier or more fulfilled or more energized. I've never ever been in a better state in my entire life. - Even though you're hungry all the time. - Yes. - Interesting. Okay, so we'll get into that after you show me what you're gonna eat. - I wouldn't trade my life for anything right now. It has never been better. That's incredible. Sleep, diet, okay. Steering by the data kicked off by our 78 organs. - Basically, this is 2,000 calories. Every calorie has to fight for its life to exist because it's such a small budget. Now my body needs to have all the nutrients it needs to be ideal. So the objective was how do you create a perfect diet? And so for breakfast, I eat this dish called super veggie which is black lentils, broccoli, cauliflower, mushrooms, garlic and-- - You named it super veggie. - Yeah, I did. - Okay. - Yeah, so I eat 70 pounds of vegetables a month. - Oh my God, Jesus, okay? That's a lot. - An hour later, two hours later, I eat nutty pudding. - So you don't eat it all at once. - No, I used to do one meal a day. My body fat went down to 3%. - Whoa! - A bit too low. - How low were your calories? - Same, 2,000. Just having it all in a single window, it had the effect of dropping my body fat. - That's competition. That's like body building up on stage. Let's go, I'm a step away from dying. Wow, 3%. That's insane, man. - I mean, I'm 5.1 now, so-- - I thought you were trying to bump it up. - Yeah, so three is too low. - Sorry, I had heard in an interview, somebody put the words in your mouth, so I have to be more careful with that, that you were trying to go up to like six and a half or seven percent. - I mean, I've been there, I'm at five right now, so it kind of hovers me. Five to six range. Okay, and that's comfortable. You're hungry, but it's comfortable. - Yeah, 5% is enough subcutaneous fat, 'cause your heart needs fat, you need fat in your body, and so we're comfortable with 5ish percent. - Okay, so one meal a day, it was two, you're getting too lean, which is already interesting from a fat loss perspective, intermittent fasting is doing its job. So how much do you spread this out, sorry? - Six hours. - Total window. - Total window time to six hours. - Got it, starting first meal is what time? - Five, six AM. - AM, whoa, so you get up and eat, or do you get up crazier? - I get up and I drink this guy here. - So I'm wiping the sleep out of my eyes, and I, interesting. So I have an unwritten rule that I don't eat, so I wake up usually four to five AM. I don't eat until roughly nine AM, and I eat all of my food in a pretty narrow window, five to six hours. Two meals only, but I've always thought that I needed to wake up, work out fasted, all of that, but not true, 'cause you're way leaner than I am. - Okay, so on these questions, my experience has been, I trained as a pilot, I got my license as a pilot in multiple airplanes. Even though I'm a competent pilot, I'm never as good as a professional pilot. They do it every day, they think about it day in, day out, they just have higher levels of skill than when I jump in and jump out. The same is true with blueprint. This team I have led by Dr. Oliver Zulman. This is all they do, they're consumed by it, night and day. When they don't have anything to think about, they're thinking about this. And even among the most elite experts in health and wellness, they disagree with each other. You know this, there is absolutely no agreement on just about anything. It's important as a system that a team run in a way that has some way to try to tease out signal from noise and then do something and see if it works. We don't know all the answers, and that's why we're testing these things. This is why I'm doing all this, is we're trying to punch through these open-ended questions and debates that never ever resolve. It's never any debate. And so in these cases of your question of, is it optimal to eat before you exercise or after you exercise? I don't know the specifics, but I'm sure you could open it up and it would be an endless debate among experts on the ideal status of doing things. And so we just don't get involved in those arguments because there's limiting, there's something to return to doing that. And so we've set up a system of evidence, of analysis, of protocol, of measurement. - That may, you had to agree on what are the optimal state for the 78 organs that we're measuring. You had to have an ideal in mind to be able to steer towards it. So at some point, either you're saying that we did get a group of people to agree on these things, or this is where our hypothesis lies. And for people that aren't super familiar with the scientific methods, so hypothesis basically a best guess. A theory is something that has proven to work even though it may not be ground level truth yet. So is this your hypothesis?
DR Horsts Methylation Project (29:44)
Is this a working theory? Like where are we at? How did you get consensus there? - I think the data speaks for itself. So you look at the highlights of what we've done for two years. So one, my speed of aging, using an epigenetic DNA methylation clock. - Okay, so looking at what exactly, so anybody that's followed me for a while, they've heard methylation talk before, so you can get kind of nerdy, and as long as I can track it, we're in good shape. - If we're looking at these biological expression patterns in our body that have some relationship to aging, these aging clocks are not yet gold standard. They're silver standard. - Is there a gold standard, or we're just working towards it? - Not like phenotypic markers. So a methylation is still silver standard. But if you look at the entirety of my data, so you say one is last year I set a world record in reducing my epigenetic age 5.1 years and seven months, using six clocks, not one, six. I didn't cherry pick a clock. So let's just say, okay, epigenetic clocks are up and coming, fine, take that to grain of salt. Second, my speed of aging, so the pace in which my body ages is 0.76. - What do you look at for that? - DNA methylation. And this is based upon a multi-decades longitudinal study based out of New Zealand. It's called the Newton. - I'm gonna tell people what DNA methylation actually is. I'll probably get it a little wrong and correct me where I do. So DNA methylation, you have these little things, like sirtuins, is that what's running around on the DNA? I can never remember. But there are little things that run around the DNA, they're probably a protein, and they are marking the DNA saying, this is a liver cell, this is a brain cell, this is an eye cell, and thusly, you should only read these sections. So read here, stop reading here. And every time a cell gets damaged, it has to go in and like remark it and say, okay, this is a part to read and not read. And aging is effectively the de-differentiation of cells. Your eye cell begins to forget that it's just an eye, your liver cell begins to forget that it's just a liver, someone and so forth. And so it stops doing its things well because the things reading the DNA are basically being told to read the wrong parts of the DNA. And so it starts to basically get confused and that is aging. - Yeah, and I'd say yes and if a detective went on your body and is looking at a crime scene, they might find some details in how your body is expressing itself in these DNA methylation patterns.
Opto-Medicals epigenetic analysis, 50 perfect biological biomarkers (32:11)
- Interesting, so there's something being revealed in the patterns that you methylate your-- - Exactly, he looked at these patterns and it's just like a biological age versus chronological age. - So there's a type of malfunction in the methylation that we can see. - Yeah, there's patterns that manifest themselves in the body. So we know, just as a basic concept, we know roughly what we know how a 15 year old's heart should look like with the characteristics of its functionality and also its anatomical. We know what an 80 year old person's heart, how it functions and what it looks like. They're very different hearts. You're not going to confuse a 15 year old and an 80 year old's heart. If you're looking at it at MRI or even looking at it in tissue. And so you can biologically age. And so DNA methylation is to say, we can identify patterns that reveal. And so this is what they're sorting in the science. It's fine. But what I'm maybe trying to get at in a quick summary is I have over 50 perfect biological markers. And they're optical clinical outcome range. So that's like my cholesterol and the triglycerides, they call the usual things people talk about. I have a hundred biomarkers that are less than my chronological age. I set a world record for reversing my epigenetic age, my speed of aging, which is currently 0.76. I'm number one out of 1,750 people that have been measuring their speed of aging over several years for total reduction of age. And so. - So for every calendar year, you age 0.76 of a calendar year. - Exactly. So like jokingly I say, I get October, November, December for free. But like, let's just say, let's discount all my data and say, okay, we think that the science is like 70% correct in that area. It's still a pretty compelling data set to suggest that what I'm doing may be interesting. And it may be in the right direction. So it's not, this is not to state that we've figured everything out, that everything's perfect, that we know all things. It's meant to put forward all the data we have and say pretty interesting. If you build this system, measurement, evidence, protocol, then look what it's doing. And that's what really we're trying to do. And so step by step. And of course, everyone's going to look at this and they'll nip at it from one direction or another. Wonderful. That's the process, that's science. That's how we're going to improve. But by open source, this is sharing it everybody. Others can implement it, they can improve it, they can generate their own data. So it's really meant to try to punch through. The game we're playing is not, this is not the game. The game we're playing is the future of the human race. That's so interesting, you're taking us back to the philosophical side. We're going to get first to the broccoli and the mushrooms and all that stuff. But it really is interesting. It was one of the notes that I took when I was doing the research is that you're really coming at this from an all-boil it down to "ought versus can." And in my language, and I don't know that everybody would agree with this, but in my language, "ought" is a moral statement. We ought to be doing things in this way. And you introduced me to an interesting idea when we first met and you were talking about, you talked about data and the data that all of us kick off from behavioral to biological in a way that I'd never contemplated before. And it seemed too big of a problem to solve at that time. But I haven't stopped thinking about that. And as somebody, so we're building in the metaverse. And now I think a lot about, "Whoa, I'm going to be influencing the way that people think about life." That if Jordan Peterson is right and it brings out like psychopathy and that the way the algorithms work, they tend to like reward people with dark triad tendencies. So I'm like, "Wow, we really have to be thoughtful about this." So bringing that back to what you're talking about now, it's like, "Okay, if we're building AI "and you've talked about the computational "and distribution cost of intelligence is going to zero." So basically now we all have a genius in our pocket that can take us from, it doesn't exist to existing with these huge breakthrough insights. Okay, well now all of a sudden we really have to get alignment and all of that alignment starts with the food that's sitting on this table here, which is so, that rings so true to me in terms of what I know about just getting people to understand. I don't want to talk about diet. I don't want to talk about exercise. But all these cool things that I do want to talk to you about, I can't get you there until we talk about this. With that, we have broccoli, we have cauliflower, which I hate. So you're going to have to make me a believer. And mushrooms, which I am so freaked out by mushrooms, but I learned a lesson. So I had real food trauma as a kid. And it's a fascinating thing. My mother and I see my childhood very differently. So I had a lot of food trauma. Eating rice or rony and like really basic, horrible things as a kid over and over and over, just that was how I grew up. And when I got older, my whole thing was no one will ever get me to eat something I don't want to eat again, ever, ever, ever. I ended up marrying a Greek girl. Her family's constantly offering me all this weird food. I do not want to eat it. And, but I didn't want to offend my father-in-law. And then we finally got to the point. He would always offer me two things. There's this weird cheese that they have called halloumi cheese, they're Cypriot. Now, halloumi cheese, if you grew up like I grew up with American cheese, it melts. Cheddar cheese melts, Swiss cheese melt. Those are the only cheeses I was ever introduced to. Halloumi doesn't melt. You can put it on open flame and it doesn't melt. It'll burn, but it doesn't melt. And so I was like, I'm never going to eat something that a cheese that doesn't melt, that's too weird. And so anyway, one day he's always offering me two things. So I can always take the other thing and not try this freakish cheese. And one day, still not wanting to offend my father-in-law, he only offers me halloumi. And I'm like, oh, this is a test. So I'm like, damn it, I have to eat this cheese. Otherwise, I'm going to offend my father-in-law. And I eat it and it was like fireworks went off in my mouth. It was so delicious. And I was like, I have missed out. I think it had been, I had known him for four years. And I was like, I had missed out on four years of eating this incredible cheese because I was scared. So I was like, if somebody offers me food sincerely, they're not trying to mess with me. If they're offering me food sincerely, I will try it every time. I can only imagine you were offering me this sincerely. So I'm going to give it a shot. All right, so mushrooms, broccoli, quinoa, what was the other thing in there? Lentils. Black lentils. Lentils. All right, where do we start? Well, I guess it is a question. Do you prefer to eat your sweets before savory or savory before sweet.
Start of food conversation (39:20)
Oh savory before sweet. 100%. I would probably dip into the super veggie. Was some broccoli. All right, let's see what we got here. Is there a particular broccoli, mushroom, cauliflower, all-in-one bite kind of thing? You know what? Is this cooked? This is softer than I thought it was. Yeah, it's all steamed. So for FODMAP, to avoid getting an indigestion and making it comfortable for your microbiome, everything's steamed. Nice. It's important to have seven to eight minutes. And then-- Oh, God, the mushroom. So freak out. Yeah, I'm a talkier. Yeah. All right, here we go. Let's do it. All right. Other than the texture of mushrooms, which I'm super sketched out by, tastes great. Great. What are you putting on it? Is it literally just steam and the natural thing? Or is there-- I-- Sauses? I can add-- No sauces. Sometimes I'll sprinkle with new salt, which is potassium chloride. So it's a replacement for sodium. But no, just puree mine. So it's like a veggie hummus. Why puree it? Because the volume I eat, it's almost 900 mLs of volume. It's very large. And so I have a lot going on in life. And to eat down much vegetables every day, puree is-- What do you chew? Masticate all these other-- my third meal of the day, that you put in the berries. OK. We're about putting again, but the berries are whole. Yep. And then the third meal is whole. So the third meal is vegetables, nuts, berries, so sweet potato or-- That was good. Again, the mushroom, I'm a little sketched out by. Why broccoli? Why cauliflower? This diet is not the only way to win. I'm vegan by choice, not by necessity. So this is not to say that someone couldn't achieve similar or better results than mine doing other things. Interesting. Totally fine. We need to talk about M-Tor. So we're back to Ot now. So you're eating this way because you believe we all ought to? I'm eating this because of the concept of what Alfred North White had said. Civilization advances by the number of important operations they can automate without the person thinking about it. And if I contemplate what are the most majestic games my conscious mind could play? That's a question and a half. And let's just for a moment try to create some separation with everything we hold near and dear right now. And let's just open ourselves up and say, what are the most majestic things we could experience? There's of course a little band of what we could see and think about and imagine and be creative. And then there's this gigantic space of unknown, of surprise. And when I think about that as the potential future, I'm motivated to spend my time energies doing that. And so eating this food is among the most delightful experiences of my entire day. I love every second of it. I also appreciate it that it is now solved in my life. I don't spend 40% of my day thinking about what I'm going to eat or trying to order what I'm going to eat or trying to. It's all just built into a system so I can have my mind pointed in somewhere else. So the goal here is not that everyone in society creates their own version of Blueprint. The idea here is that society creates Blueprint as the norm. It is unfair to the individual that they're set out in society and they have to navigate on a daily basis-- McDonald's and Snickers and TikTok and everything else. It is unfair. And this goes back to your point on data. When you're broadcasting data, the capitalistic system is taking this and then using it against you so you commit greater self-destructive behaviors. And then we celebrate it and then we call people weird when they don't participate in it. The whole system is rigged against us. Meanwhile, we worship our technology. We are willing to sacrifice ourselves for technology. We're marters for technological progress. Yet we have almost-- we have a minuscule amount of attention focused on improving ourselves. And it should be the exact opposite.
The New Apple Keynote (44:18)
The new Apple keynote should be the new Blueprint. We should be able to showcase human advancement in ways that are stunning and exciting. It gets everyone on this movement of how do we prove ourselves individually and collectively. And if we look at ourselves in 10, 20, 30, 40 years, we might look back and say, that was obvious. Like, why did we sacrifice ourselves for this technological advancement? Why did we just drive ourselves into the ground? Why did we encourage each other to do all these self-destructive things? Why did we allow it to happen to ourselves? We might consider ourselves to be insane. And just a snap of sobriety, we'd say, of course, why wouldn't we move forward in this fashion? And that's what this is meant to do, is we naturally gravitate towards things that improve our lives. And if we could have systems that help us do that, could we say yes to it in a way that it doesn't threaten our being? It doesn't threaten our meaning making. It doesn't threaten our identities. We say, cool, because we really want to play bigger gains than existence. All right, that's super interesting. We will certainly continue balancing this razor's edge of practicality and philosophy, which I actually really do find interesting. I want to understand-- so you've answered the question why you eat veggies over meat. So I get that. And I think it'll be important for us to go into the end of one. I'm not sure if you have an idea. But right now, I want to talk about you. You said every calorie has to fight for its survival in terms of the right to be consumed by you. I'm very curious. I'm going to ask one question before we go on with this, which is, I think of nutrition as so end of one, if for no other reason than your microbiome, one that will never get to 100% one blueprint for everybody. But I also think throwing up your hands and saying, well, it's hopeless because it's all in one, is also a mistake. So I'm going to guess that 85% of the blueprint will be the same for everybody. And then there's going to be 15% new ones. But I'm going to set aside the 15% new ones. But my question is, do you agree? Is it 80%? Is it 4%? Is it going to be universal? How much of this is going to be blueprint for everybody and how much is going to be individualized? Those, that data will naturally emerge over time. Do you have a gut instinct, though?
Organizing Principles (46:53)
I would dare to guess. Really interesting. I'm so, I think that it, I think everybody ought to be willing to say, this is how I think about the problem. So I always find myself spouting off about things. I know that I will definitely change my mind. Like, I will 100% follow the data. But I need organizing principles. Okay, anyway, so you're organizing principle, you're not sure. So going back to this bowl here, your 78 organs are competing. Every calorie has to like justify its existence. But this bowl has raised its hand in the data and said, for all of the 78, I'm one of the best things that you could do. You've already been clearer. Maybe there's a meat protocol or whatever that will do the same thing or maybe it's even better. But the data has said, and your elf-like appearance backs it up, that this is effective. But I don't yet understand why. So what is hiding, not hiding, what is the matrices of these items that the 78 organs are like, yes, please. I mean, for example, if you, if my 17-year-old and I both do our blood panels, we're looking at liver enzymes and we're looking at all of our basic blood panel, we're nearly indistinguishable. It would be almost, it's almost impossible to tell the difference between his and mine. And that's what this food has produced. But why isn't this bok choying colored greens? It could be. It's just that the-- Why isn't this tomatoes, I'm now picking nightshades on purpose, why isn't this tomatoes and eggplant and peppers? As a team, we look at the evidence. We try to find gold standard evidence. So with a random control trial, and we say, you know, blank has shown to do blank in this organ or this biological process. And that's what the result is here. So broccoli, cauliflower, mushrooms and lentils, get the blood panels that we want. And you've tried how many things have you tried? - A lot, yeah. They have for me, they have for a lot of people around me. And so again, it's, your statement is, you're directly correct that for some percent of people, this will work. For another percent, it won't work. And how much of a difference? We don't know. And so the blueprint is less about the exact things and more about the system of measurement evidence protocol. And I assume, cause that system, so you put out a video. So I know a little bit about this.
Nutrition And Fitness Discipline
Mellow Cravings with Discipline Molecules (49:36)
You put out a video where it's like, here are all the crazy things that we do. It's so overwhelming that even somebody with like, my identity is I'm one big, throbbing, discipline molecule. I don't even know how to finish that statement. But like, I am disciplined, like incarnate. That's how I see myself. And when I watched that video, I was like, yeah, no. Like it's so complex. Like the machines and you spend, well in fact, this will sum it up. In fact, I don't even mind the money. It's the time. You spend more money on your body every year than LeBron James. Okay? Let people at home let that one sink in. So this protocol is very robust. And the gap I'm trying to bridge is, we keep talking about the protocol, like sort of in the ether without like really grounding it. But because I've seen the whole thing, it's so complicated. I know we have a bunch of your supplements here and we need to get into that. So I'm gonna say for now, for the sanity of people watching this, we're gonna continue going through the foods that we have here. And while there is gonna be N of one variations, if you're gonna get into this, because I've seen the level of complexity, most people should just see what's in the bowl. And I'm gonna take this sort of on blind faith that if I wanna replicate the protocol, rather than me go do all the things you're doing because I'm not willing to, just being completely honest, that I'm just gonna eat this. Okay, that's guidance for myself on how to run this interview. Okay, so these are the things that the data has kicked off for somebody doing this in a vegan format. Okay, so we've got our super veggies, which you smoothie the shit out of, because you don't wanna chew the 70 pounds a month. I don't mind chewing it. Hummus is my favorite food. What do you dip in the hummus though? Fesibles. Okay, so we save some of our broccoli. So the third meal of the day could be a hummus. I'm just saying, generally speaking, hummus is among my favorite foods. Got it. Super veggie is hummus. It's just ground on. In texture. Yeah, exactly. And so a lot of people look at it and the texture triggers these associations in their mind. And a lot of people. In fact, you're right, mushrooms, hidden in a hummus would be far better for my sanity. It's a lot of fun for people to poke at the thing and make funny jokes. It's hummus and I have hummus for breakfast and it's just chock full of vegetables. And so yeah, so that's the breakfast I like to, in the morning. So then I also drizzle olive oil on this and I also put chocolate in it. That's a new, that's a recent addition. Into the hummus or separately? Into the hummus. Interesting. Can you taste the chocolate? Yeah, so it's a really weird combination.
The 5 Levels of Thinking (52:20)
Let's start eating through this stuff. So you, here, we've got the chocolate. These are gonna be bitter as hell, right? They are. Yeah, 'cause this is like straight up. That's right. So there's- What makes this special and what brand is this? We think about everything. This chocolate's a good example of a five level stack of thinking. So first statement is chocolate's good for you. Second is dark chocolate is good for you. Third is dark chocolate undouched is good for you. Fourth is dark chocolate undouched without heavy metals is good for you. And the fifth is dark chocolate undouched, not heavy metals with the highest polyphenol count. And so with every one of these things, we want to get to level five on every single thing. And that's what, again, what this is, is it's had to survive a tremendous amount of scrutiny to arrive. So that is pure 100% dark chocolate. We have a tested for heavy metals with high polyphenol count. We have several suppliers- Brand is this? We have several suppliers if we work on it. Do you not like to talk about the brands? No, 'cause we're actually gonna make our own one.
Food Start-Ups (53:20)
I was gonna say, like literally, I was like, talk to Brian about getting into business in food because- It's very hard. It's very hard to find. Let's make our hummus, Brian. Exactly. But the chocolate, it's delightful to eat. And so then you pair 70 pounds of vegetables with 100% dark chocolate and the same thing with the olive oil. So we run the same criteria of the absolute highest quality olive oil. And that's breakfast. It's the most nutritionally dense dish I have ever consumed in my entire life. What are some of the things you've thrown away? Like, we tried asparagus. Yeah, we don't do asparagus anymore. Have we, are there any ones that were amiss? I mean, at one point, I had too many carrots in my diet. Why? So I also had to dial back the carrots, but I did it because it was spiking the life out of my glucose, which I was utterly scandalized, but I had no idea that baby carrots, I don't know if it matters, but baby carrots, if I eat them to satiety, I will spike my glucose over 100, which is crazy. And I live in the sort of mid to low 80s. Is that why you did it or was there something else? No, so the organs were kicking off bad data. Early on, we basically, we had settled in on the first two dishes of the day, the drink and the two dishes, the chocolate and all that. We talked about the drink yet. And then the third dish we had, we identified like 100 plus vegetables and basically this huge number of things. And so the person I work with, we just said, randomly choose from this assortment of vegetables and vary it up. Give me some diversity of food. And so we really left that. Do you think that's important? Well, we were just testing it out, like let it be a wild card. And so they tried a whole bunch of different preparations. And so in that it was an asymptomatic approach. And so we just had too much too many carrots. And so that showed up in our measurement. And so now-- Did you know it was the carrots? I forget the tracks we had. But all of our, 'cause you've got some of the godly numbers of people on this. It's so funny.
Workers tracking green juice intake (55:21)
There was just one time where I take iodine. You worried about a nuclear attack? No, just I take 125 McGs a day. Why? And why iodine? Just part of my daily dietary intake. Data tells us to take iodine. You're gonna have to come up with a better answer. And there's markers for it. So at the time I was doing this zinc test where you-- Have you ever done this where you put-- You can test whether you're zinc deficient or not. I don't. I put this in your mouth. And if you taste the zinc, you're zinc deficient. If you can't taste anything, you're good on zinc. Interesting. And so I just came prime from that. And so basically you're looking at your body's reaction to doing it. And I thought, that's interesting. So I did the iodine and it tastes really good to me. And I thought, does that mean my body's asking more of it? And so I started doing two drops instead of one, just playfully doing it. And then a month later, my labs show up. And as a team, we're looking at this. And they're like, wait a second. That result makes no sense. And I had to bashfully confess, I've deviated from the protocol. I did two drops instead of one. But any deviation-- Was it a good deviation? No, it was a bad deviation. Really? So even though it tasted-- I thought the punchline was going to be, if it tastes good, like-- No. Of course, I should have known better. This is me going off and doing something with my mind. Right. Maybe this is a good idea. But it's funny because I cannot do anything without it showing up in the data. It's like I have 24/7 surveillance on my body in all the measurements we take. So whether it's my wearables, or my imaging, or blood drugs, it is so comprehensively captured in every moment with every thing I'm doing. I have found every time I do something, it immediately manifests, it's not immediately. But it manifests in the data, and the team can tease it out. OK. So then let's get back to the things you're actually putting in your body. So some of the people don't want to punch me, because I can feel that they're going to. So we have our super veggies, which we turn into a hummus. We've got the five-step ultra-bittered-- but actually was-- I've damaged my palate, because I eat clean. So to me, that was fun. But the ultra-bittered dark chocolate, high polyphenol, no heavy metals, so on and so forth, looks like we're going to get to some sort of berry smoothie. Yeah. We've got chocolate-covered berries. I'm guessing it's the same chocolate. Melted, looks like maybe some nuts on it. Extra virgin olive oil. Any special thing about that? Same thing as chocolate. It's five levels deep for the purity. Probably worth going through the five on that. But first, and then what's the mystery drink here?
Pill protocol explained (57:54)
Oh, this is for breakfast. So this first here, 10 is 50-- I think it's 54 pills. So in the morning-- Mm-hmm, Christ. That's a lot of pills. Yeah. So we wake up, you drink green giant, 54 pills. Uh-huh. But so so much of what you do is like, oh, the data just tells us to keep going. But how did you pick the 54 pills to start with? Yeah, same process. What's the first step though? Randomly ingest bizarre things. There had to be some logic. So I'm guessing you're working with a guy. That guy is like Oliver, wasn't he? Oliver? Yeah. Oliver. Dr. Zolman. Dr. Oliver Zolman is like, take these 75 pills. We narrow it down to 54, giving us the results that we want. Something like that. Yeah, there-- He's got some methodology. That's the one part that's missing from all this, is like, what's that first experimental step? But since we don't need that because we're just going to tell people to eat and take what you're taking, you have those broken down on your website. Yes. So we can link to that in the show notes. Yes. OK. Everything here is all on the website. OK. Everything is available for every one at no cost. What is up, my friend, Tom Bill, you here. And I have a big question to ask you, how would you rate your level of personal discipline on a scale of 1 to 10, if your answer is anything less than a 10? I've got something cool for you. And let me tell you right now, discipline, by its very nature, means compelling yourself to do difficult things that are stressful, boring, which is what kills most people, or possibly scary or even painful. Now, here is the thing. Achieving huge goals and stretching to reach your potential requires you to do those challenging, stressful things and to stick with them even when it gets boring. And it will get boring. Building your level as a personal discipline is not easy, but let me tell you, it pays off. In fact, I will tell you, you're never going to achieve anything meaningful unless you develop discipline. All right. I've just released a class from Impact Theory University called How to Build Ironclad Discipline that teaches you the process of building yourself up in this area so that you can push yourself to do the hard things that greatness is going to require of you. Right.
Are you discipline? (59:54)
Click the link on the screen. Register for this class right now. And let's get to work. I will see you inside this workshop from Impact Theory University. Until then, my friends, be legendary. All right. Green Giant. What is Green Giant? It is Chlorella powder that includes-- That sounds terrifying. Is Chlorella something that grows? So it has spermidine. Is that something that grows? Like, I've heard those names, but honestly, is there a spermidine plant? Spermidine is in a lot of foods, mushrooms. OK. So it's an ingredient for-- That's just that it's 13.5 milligrams. Then there's amino acids. It smells like cat food, Brian. It tastes good, though. It's delicious. Wow. I've been facing this smell like I'm going to hate this one. This is the thing everyone-- It really does smell like cat food, but it doesn't taste like-- not that I know a cat food tastes like, but it doesn't taste like I expected from smell. Has an aftertaste of bubble gum. That's unexpected. I rarely experience anyone who doesn't eat this food with me and arrive at the same place. This is really nice. It is. The whole thing is very nice. I wasn't expecting that. OK, I'm going to give you-- I'm going to confess to something. I burped a few minutes ago and could taste the master veggie. And I was like, that was nice. Like, even the burp was nice. Yeah. So I tried going vegetarian at one point, and I did not like it at all. And I was always like, that's a lie. I tried going way more vegetables. Let me be very careful in my words. So I am now-- call it-- 80% of my calories come from meat, 20% from vegetables. I tried to reverse it and do 20% from meat, and 80% from vegetables. I didn't feel good. And I was always like, well, I just didn't do it intelligently. I wasn't following the protocol. I was like, what vegetables do I happen to have in my refrigerator start eating a lot of those? I would be very interested to try this exact protocol and see how we do. But will there be a transition period where I'm like crazy diarrhea because my microbiome isn't ready for this? Like, is there a transition to go through? Or is it like, wake up tomorrow and just start going crazy? These persons different in terms of the transition period. Your point is correct, though, that the reason why I take 100 pills a day is if the budget is 2,000 calories a day, and the objective is perfect nutrition, and it's vegan, then this is what keeps my body in that perfect state. And so this is why a lot of people who do try to go vegan or do color-recordriction fail is because their body's missing critical, important pieces of nutrition. And so this basically is addressing-- so this is what I did. As I put myself on this, I call this my autonomous self. But it's a 2,000 calories a day, an hour of exercise a day. It's vegan. And I just let my body run. So look, the muscle mass, body fat-- I measure all these things. It's getting ultrasound and doing full body, ultrasound, looking at tendons, ligaments, muscle. I measure everything-- full body MRI, a fat of liver. And then we say, how is this doing? And it's working. It basically has tuned my body to near perfect health. So interesting. So this is the thing-- All right, Brian. This is-- so I didn't expect that you're on your longevity arc, as the kids would say. I didn't see this coming from our last interview, man. This is so interesting. And if you didn't look like an elf, I don't know if I would believe in all of it. But given that you do, I'm over here. How fast can I eat this stuff? OK, so walk me through berries and-- This is going to be your favorite dish. This will be your favorite dish. What is the puffy stuff? Oh, that's pea protein. Pea protein. Yeah, you might want to mix it up a little bit, otherwise you might-- OK. --and then it caught your ears. So this is nuts, macadamia nuts, walnuts, flax seed, sunflower laching, pomegranate seeds, and most people think it tastes like a dessert. Yeah, there's no thinking it does taste like a dessert. But let's not trick people. This is not cold stone ice cream. But it is tasty. I'm repulsed by cold stone ice cream. You take that back. You take that back right now. Cold stone ice cream is delicious. Is that because you-- so Tom Hanks once said, when he was losing all the weight for cast away, he said it got to the point where I didn't want to eat a chocolate cake. You didn't have to tell me.
Understanding Chemical Taste
What chemicals taste like (01:04:19)
He was like, it just-- the idea was disgusting. I've never gotten there. Yeah. So the other day, someone had to-- Damn, this is good, right? They had a bag of something, some chip or something. And I grabbed one, and I put it in my mouth, and it just-- I could taste the chemicals. It was almost like eating gasoline. Now, for people in the comments saying everything is chemicals, yes, you are correct. But there are some things that taste like chemicals. I know exactly what you mean by that. Yeah. It was like gasoline. Yeah. This is really nice, man. You're making me a believer over here. Yeah. And so you put it all together. And I mean, the people that have been on this-- Who created these recipes? We did the team. Wow. Yeah. So we're just constantly working on it. Again, people-- Are there bananas in this? No. Really? Yeah. I could have passed a lie detector that there are bananas in here. Yeah. Yeah. You're getting to-- There's some banana flavor in the pea protein. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But I would imagine, Tom, if you did this, and you had some duration of time on this-- Jesus. --that you would probably say you can't imagine life not doing it. You've-- Well, after eating this one-- You feel that good. I think I have to do this. Like, I have to try this. To do our time together, justice-- this is so tasty. If that can be made into a hummus, because the mushrooms freak me out, be honest. Exactly. But it tasted great. This is freaky. All right. And we saw more to go. And then if you want to be wild-- I want to be wild. You know, like this is the same dark chocolate with a few berries. And so it just kind of-- Yeah. Let's see how we do here. Strawberries make everything taste good. That's nice, man. It's really nice. And you eat-- do you eat a plate like-- Is this part of the protocols? I don't eat that on a daily basis. I serve these up to friends when we do our blueprint brunches. Wow. Now, do you have anybody doing the blueprint on meat? My son does. Interesting. He has-- he is identical in everything, except for he has chicken with his super veggie. And his marker is going in the right direction. Now, how much is youth get out of jail free card, though? Like, there are people that really mess themselves up. So I imagine you'd be able to see it. So just to turn that into a full question. So you would be able to see-- if you're monitoring your son, it's not like, well, at least 17, and therefore everything is going to look great. If he were doing things that were off, you'd be able to pick it up right away. That's right. OK. Very interesting, man. Yeah. And he's our prototype. Every time we're doing a new measurement protocol, he is-- well, he's excited to be involved. So we have this-- I measure-- I look at my skin. And I'm trying to basically have skin like an 18-year-old. Yeah. And so we have this machine that does a multispecial imaging, gives us 10 different dimensions of skin. And he'll do the measurement. All do the measurement. We'll compare our results. And he'll age out at 17 like he is. And so I always have a biological comparison. It's just fun. We do it. It's a fun family activity. It's humorous. It's just-- Friday at the Jones and Nelson. I mean, for example, I always try to teach my kids to wear sunscreen. And it was always like-- Yeah. Why? Bad. But sunscreen-- Isn't that like you're absorbing toxic chemicals into the biggest organ in your body? Yeah. Yeah. They would just like leave me-- Is that true? I'm phobic of sunscreen. I never wear sunscreen. So I get in the sun. I try to be thoughtful. I know that I can't just take infinite amounts of sun. But I try to have a base tan at all times. It was the one thing-- so looking at a lot of the footage that you've done, your thighs, bro, are white. Like scary white. And don't we-- I mean vitamin D, getting sun. I'm super sketched out by the idea of just isolating compounds and doing everything through supplementation. And vitamin D, to your point, there's a lot of stuff we don't know yet. And as more and more people start reading all their data, things are going to spring forth from the data. And I have a feeling that one of the answers is going to be everything you can get naturally, you should get naturally. So if you can eat it, it would be far better. My hypothesis goes that it would be far better to eat things that contain all the things that you're supplementing than it is to supplement. Vitamin D being the one-- again, I'm a lay person. I am not a scientist. I'm not tracking this. This is just a hypothesis I have, which again, is only my best guess. But that vitamin D you want sun impacting your skin is my gut instinct. You're saying no. I'm not saying no. I'm saying that the way we approach skin are objective is to get my entire body to have the biological characteristics of my 17-year-old. Yep. So that includes all the characteristics. And so we do full body treatment. And we do a sufficient number of treatments for these treatments. I need to be out of the sun for a certain duration at a time. And so really, it's an optimization of we're doing treatments. I avoid the sun because we're doing these treatments on an ongoing basis. And we measure everything. We use multi-spectral imaging. We measure it with all these different instruments. And so we have a protocol of trying to do this. And the idea of should you get sun or not sun and for how long and under what circumstances, that's again an example of it explodes into infinite complexity. And if we actually take this and we look at the evidence, I'm sure we could come up with some cohesive answer. But it's the kind of thing that, to me, gets in the way of the bigger picture. If you-- people get so fixated on this one thing of it, how much time should you be in the sun? And then they spend all their time doing that and then commit self-destructive behavior and don't eat anything good for themselves. And it's missing this bigger picture. And so it'd be wonderful to solve that debate once and for all for the entire of all humanity. There's also bigger things we could be focusing on. And so this protocol we have-- that's why my skin is so pale is we have these iterations of these skin treatments. And according to our measurement systems, it's working, like a crosshole body. All right, I want to start teasing out the difference between slowing the aging clock and actual rejuvenation. I know we won't know for quite some time. And you were very thoughtful with your earlier answer. You do think that we will ultimately be able to meaningfully reverse age. How much reversal are we going to be able to do? And what is the key to that? Is this like getting methylation right? Like, is that really-- because I want to boil this down into its simplest thing. And if I were to oversimplify based on my-- look, I've done so many of these interviews now.
Body Regeneration Processes
How we regenerate our organs (01:11:32)
I'm really not your average layperson. But I'm definitely not a scientist. And I'm not at the bleeding edge of this stuff. But methylation-- if the hypothesis that I put out earlier is accurate, it seems like methylation is something we really have to point to. And that is your cells begin to de-differentiate. So they are no longer the eye to liver the skin. They're just sort of-- they're falling apart. They don't remember what kind of cell type they are. If that really is true, the methylation, like that's going to be the thing. Zoom in on that. All the things that we're eating, it's working because it's helping with methylation. Again, this is just the hypothesis. Do you have a similar sort of boiled down thing? Or just-- I'm going to guess the answer to this. And I don't know if the audience is going to love this or hate this. But I want to see if I'm really beginning to understand. What you're going to say is it's a waste of time to make that hypothesis. And at today's current stage where artificial intelligence is and all that, and where human intelligence is, all you can do is look at the data. And so you're going to try things. You're going to look at the data. You're going to try things and look at the data. It's very unsatisfying in an interview. But if that is the truth, is that the truth? Dr. Zulman created this 78 organ quantification methodology. And he approached this saying, you need to approach the human system by an organ, by organ basis. You, of course, can do things for system well-being, like we have been doing. And so this first phase of blueprint has been entirely about getting the basics right to slow the rate of aging. We just started in the past month at this phase two, which is what you said, regeneration. And we're doing this on an organ by organ basis. So in the same way, we've looked at my heart and we've quantified it from a dozen or so different age markers. And once you have those age markers, you're armed with going to the literature and saying, what evidence is there in literature that you can regenerate the heart in these functions or in this anatomical way? And that's how we're approaching the entirety of regeneration. And this is the open question, is, can we, in fact, reduce the biological age of me and its entirety starting with organs? And so it may be epigenetics, it may be DNA methylation, maybe not. So it's really TBD. But what we're doing is we have to start with measurement and we have to look at it as a system. Because your heart can be 70 years old and you're chronologically 30. So your organs are at this very wide range. So you're not one age, you're hundreds of different ages. And so that's what we're really trying to do is break it down. That's why you need sexual bus measurement. That's also why I'm sharing this all publicly, is that I know from experience, if you take this to a doctor, it's a hard conversation to have with a doctor. People won't get it, man.
Psycho-Neural Controls And Perspectives
Controls Outside System (01:14:42)
Like you would have to be with somebody so specialized. I'm not saying no doctor ever. I'm just saying the realities of the medical system is so overwhelming. I think about this in my own business. I spend so much time keeping the doors open and the lights on that I don't get to think enough about the future and all of that. And so God, I can only imagine as a doctor, you have to see so many patients and your income is dependent on the number of people that you get through the door. You don't have time to be researching this though. I'm saying absolutely nothing negative about doctors. All I'm saying is they have a way of doing things and they have systems and they play within a system with insurance companies and they see patients like you're saying. And so if somebody's trying to do something that is not as part of the system, it's hard. Which is why I've been sharing this with everyone is then it gives an opportunity for a bunch of people to jump in and start doing things in different ways. But it's this opportunity for us to rethink entire, like last night I was-- I have so many ideas on my sleep always. So last night, the idea that was grinding away in my sleep was this idea of Gen Zero. So we say-- You tweeted that out. Yeah. Sturdier today. Yeah, so it was my son's idea. And I was playing around with him with this idea of zero principle thinking and all that kind of stuff. And he said, yeah, Gen Zero. And it just stunned me. And so last night I was just churning in my sleep. And I was trying to write in my mind a paragraph of Gen Zero is-- in the 21st century, Gen Zero was a group of people that spanned age and gender and ethnicity and blank. And they came together and they effectively said, we're OK detaching ourselves from all things humans have built. And we're OK to walk into this unknown future in this system where we all move in together doing this goal alignment. But it wasn't-- it was this delicate relationship of we honor what the human race has created. We appreciate it for what it is. We also are not beholden to any of it. We're not trying to superimpose ourselves on the future. We're not saying that what we have is the best thing that any intelligent group in the universe can create. We are flexible. We are open. And we'll walk into this new system. And I was trying to think of what are the contours of this new generation that is unified, not just by date of birth, but unified by this philosophical concept, realizing time and place. If we bind that together, we can-- just holding onto these, we love to grasp on to things with a death grip. And for us to let go, oftentimes, is the biggest impediment. And so I just couldn't get the thought of out of my mind last night as like, what is this new group of people they rally around and they find meaning in this new unification? I mean, you really tell them, like, and I know I always go to these philosophical areas and you're trying to bring it very proud of you. No, no, no. We got the hardcore practicality. So now I'm open. The future here is if we say the first goal is to create goal alignment within self. And it raises this question, who's in charge? Brian, who sets the alarm? Brian at 9 p.m. who sets the alarm for 6 a.m. Or 6 a.m. Brian, who wants to hit this news button? And if we recognize the conflict within us at thousands of points and we say, we need to goal align within self. And for me doing that was removing the tool I thought most important in my own mind, removing myself and saying, I'm going to allow a system solve this for me. And then if we say, OK, now I've got goal alignment within self, you and I are going to have goal alignment. And we humans are going to work on our goal alignment. And we're going to do it with artificial intelligence. And we're going to do it with planet Earth. The future of our existence is a computational fabric of goal alignment, of trillions of intelligent agents. And we are immersed in this tapestry.
The System Banking 5PM Screaming Tyranical Brain (01:19:10)
And we're moving in this trajectory. We don't know where, but along the system. And much like evolution has done on planet Earth and produced, but it's this system of interwoven intelligence. And we're part of it. And in doing that, we may have to consider different ways of being and what we want to hold on to and how much we're willing to let go and how much we're willing to jump into this expansive future. To me, it seems like it's obvious. Like this is where it's moving. And these are the systems we want to build so we can participate in this future. OK, so I love that vision. The data tells me that it will require brutal authoritarian rule to get everyone on board with that. How do you think through the messiness of the human mind? Because to your point about the death grip, people grab on. And I have not seen evidence that everyone can let go. Some people can. You obviously can. But how do you deal with the problem? You know in religion, the problem of evil. I'll call this the problem of human. Like humans are going to human. They're going to be grabbing onto things, clutching, desperate, unable to see that they exist inside of a frame of reference. They can't break out of it. How do you deal with that? I've been hosting these blueprint branches at my home with friends called the first upper. And I pose this question, this thought experiment. They say, if you could have a system that takes care of you and gives you perfect health, you feel your very best. Would you say yes to that, knowing you're going to have to make-- knowing that you will be making changes that accommodate that? So for example, if the algorithm has you in an ideal state, eating the majority of your food in the morning, you do so and you don't do so at night. Whatever things emerge-- and let's just say it changes something in your life. So if you could achieve perfect health for making some changes, almost inevitably, the response is no and a violent no. And their minds generate, almost like chat GPT, a list of 45 reasons why existence no longer makes sense for them because it's a dystopian reality. Because they're being forced to do it? Just the thought just hits the brain in a way where there's this neateric reaction. Because I don't think that question gets to the scary part yet. So let me reiterate what I heard you just say.
What You Perceive Happening (01:21:53)
There is a system that will give you perfect health. You'll have to follow the system. But there's a system that will give you perfect health. Would you implement that system? And you're saying people violently saying no. Would you say yes to that? Because-- and I understand this-- it steps on what they perceive to be their most sacred attribute of existence, their own decision authority. They're the way you pose that question isn't scary yet. So here's-- from your retelling, here's what they're hearing. And this, I think, is actually the thing that I'm worried about. But it isn't what you asked. And I just want to make sure that we tease those two things apart. What it sounds like they're hearing is if I gave you a system that would give you perfect health and you can't opt out, you are going to do it, then I get why they would react violently. Yeah. So I guess maybe them. Would you let people opt out? Like if you were the-- So this is the thing. So this is not someone imposing. This is your own privately controlled system. So no one's forcing it upon you. And people still react negatively? Well, so-- That doesn't compete. So I need you to the punchline, because there's a good punchline here. But basically, like, you're safe. It's OK. There's no one behind the curtains pulling the strings. This is all about you and your private system with your ideal health. So there's no bad things going on behind the scenes. So would you accept that? And this, with the trade-off, is would you be willing to consider the modifications of life to do this thing? And so what happens is-- and so what I'm trying to say is the mind immediately wants to reject it, because the mind wants to keep its authoritarian power. And so your comment to me of the only way this could be implemented in society would be an authoritarian government superimposing on people. What I'm saying is that what you just said was my mind over my body. I had that. My mind was a tyrannical force over me, forcing itself upon all of me. My heart couldn't speak up. My lungs couldn't speak up. My kidney couldn't speak up. My mind did whatever it wanted, whenever it wanted, and however it wanted. And the moment its authority is challenged, it throws an absolute fit. And I saw this when I fired evening Brian. I said, OK, Brian from 5 PM to 7 PM, or 10 PM, he has no control. He absolutely-- like, he eats way too much food. He's a very serious problem. And when I got to the day and I said, playfully, you're fired. And I started implementing that. I would write it at 5, and then he would show up. And he'd be like, just today, or just a little bit. And then when the answer came back, no, that version of Brian was on the floor throwing a tantrum, punching holes in the wall, kicking and screaming, desperate for control. And so I saw this behavior inside. I saw this whole argument happening inside of me as I screamed for control. But I knew that wasn't appropriate, because this guy was really not in my best interest.
Firing Evening Brian (01:24:59)
And so what I'm saying is it's this phenomena we have within ourselves, within society. And so if we're mindful enough about this conversation, what I'm saying is we all have this inside of us right now, this unfair relationship with selves. But we desperately defend it. Even though it drives us to early death, even though it drives us to aging disease, and the only way I could solve my own problem was to remove my mind, who was forcing self upon all my body, and have a system do it. And so in these dinners, typically, it breaks people's brains because it triggers this really tough response. And just like you, everyone understands a question just slightly differently. And they're like, but wait a second, what about this? What about this? What about that? What about this? But then at the end of the conversation, after we've walked through it, people get their bearings and be like, you know what? You're right. Like I have this nuanced relationship with myself. I have these different versions of myself. I'm not happy with all the different versions. Some of them, I actually don't want in me anymore. And so you can, but it takes a little warm up because otherwise it triggers really strong responses. So to me, it's not about a government saying, everybody should do this. It's about each person. This is what I'm saying. If we want to solve the problems that are facing us, the biggest problems we have, it's not pointing out and finding who's creating the biggest problem and shaming them or yelling at them or telling them what they're doing wrong. The best thing we can do is point at self and say, how can I solve the problems within me? And if we can solve the problems within ourselves, we can begin to think about how to solve problems together. But I don't know if we're gonna be able to solve these big problems if we just ignore the major turmoil happening in each one of us and we don't solve this fundamental problem. So again, we treat this planet the same way we treat ourselves. - Okay, so let's take the thought experiment as far as we can and make it as hard as possible. So let's say the data's coming out.
Evil Overlord (01:27:11)
It's very clear that people have an evil overlord in their own mind, the five to 10 p.m. Brian. It's making poor decisions that then actually damages the computer, their mind, that they're using to approach the world in a rational fashion. And so now I know I've got all the data in the world. Just thought experiment. Every single person that runs the protocol ends up thinking in a more similar fashion. They're not at war with themselves. They're saying the same things you're saying, I would not trade the way that I feel now for anything in the world. Thank God I ran the protocol. Every person, one after another, after another, after another. So we know it works. Would you let people opt out? Knowing they're opting out almost certainly because their computer's broken. And so if we just forced them just for a little while so that they can think clearly and then they would all come over to this camp, but would you let them opt out? - Every intelligent agent can choose as they, they can choose what they want to do. The goal here is to goal align among all agents. And every agent, every person, when I say agent, I just mean we need to think about this in terms of AI and humans and the planet. It's no longer just humans. We're playing with in a much broader game here. And we really need to understand the game has changed. Every agent is going to make decisions in this fabric. And just like we do today and people play the life with their various decisions. We may turn a corner however, is if we arrive, I'm not sure that many of us look around right now and we're giving the world two thumbs up on how we're doing. Maybe there's a better way of doing things. And maybe if we could solve this fundamental problem of self-destruction, not only within self, but cheering on capitalistic systems in the world who cause people to commit self harm, who self-destructive behaviors, who encourage them to commit self-destructive behavior. If we can solve these fundamental things, and so it's not so violent, maybe we'd feel different about each other. Maybe we'd feel different about doing this as a society. Right now it's reasonable to distrust because you know in the moment you get into a relationship with some kind of system and that you know you have to be suspicious that you're going to take advantage of you. Because it's not embedded in our morals and fabric, morals and ethical systems yet that that's just not appropriate. And so I understand what you're saying, it really takes a few steps to think through this of get into a mindset where you feel safe, that people and corporations are not out to get you. You're in a system of goal alignment, you're moving along, each person can make different decisions on different things with certain variations, but it's just a different way of being. I'll give you all that, but I'll ask like yes or no style, would you let people opt out?
Opting Out (01:30:26)
So it works, everyone that does it, there is a better way, all of that, but will you let them opt out and do dumb things? Oh, I mean, I have no authority. But if magic wand, you now can do it, do you think that that would be a desirable outcome to let people do dumb things? They're putting us at risk. It's an necessity. It's, I-- To let them do dumb things? Yes, it's interesting. I didn't think you were gonna answer the question that way, so this is utterly fascinating. So just to put my own card on the table, I think you have to let people do dumb things as much as I find it very distressing, and it makes me very sad. Dumb, I mean, basically-- Self-harm. The system requires agent action. It requires that freedom of movement. That's what the whole system is. It's because it's going to produce richness of outcome. It's not entirely negative, right? There's like this diversity, the unexpectedness and iteration. It needs to have characteristics. Characteristics, meaning, you were talking earlier about the element of surprise, like there's the unexpected, all that. So there is a richness in that that you think is ultimately desirable for humans.
Approaching the problem from a different perspective. (01:31:49)
Okay, that's really interesting, and I actually thought you were going somewhere else, so I'm very fascinated by that. One thing that I think is, I may be approaching the problem just from a radically different perspective, which is, so going back to, I want you're having a biological experience to be on my tombstone, and I've heard people say a lot until you change the biology, you're never going to change the outcome. Like humans are going to do human-y things, and we know what that looks like. It looks like exactly what we have right now. And systems basically, you start from scratch, and you build something up, and it gets amazing, and then you get to the point where the meeting-making machine begins to break down, people don't have to fight anymore. I remember one of my earliest realizations was some people need to be chased by a lion, and I wasn't even sure what I meant, but it was probably in my early 20s, where I was just like, "I get the feeling that some people "actually be better off if life was really hard." And there's almost this like, surplus time to ruminate that gets people in a lot of trouble, and so whether it's childhood trauma or whatever, if you're not fighting for your life, like that can be all-consuming. Okay, let me piece this together. So you're having a biological experience. There is, I think, a hyper-predictable outcome to the way that the human mind is wired, and it happens at different rates at different times, largely based on geography, which then gives birth to culture. Culture ultimately speaks to your frame of reference, which I could do a whole episode on what frame of reference is, but it is the water to the fish. You see life entirely through your frame of reference, but yet it is completely invisible to you. One country's gonna do well for a while, and it's gonna crumble. Every empire that has ever existed has also fallen apart. So there's something in here that's predictable, but it's just different enough over time and all that, that it rhymes, but it's not perfectly predictable, but on the grand arc of humanity, I think this is relatively predictable. You're being led by the nose by your biology. You've already identified that, that there's your conglomeration of a bunch of different wants, desires, micro-personalities, all of that, and they're all sort of competing, and if you could get your diet in sleep, gross generalization, if you could get those right, your frame of reference would be altered so profoundly, you would begin making different decisions, but for me to try to force you into that shoot, I break something in the way the human mind works, and all hell breaks loose. The other part of this that is really interesting, now we have to get into kernel, and why you're doing all of that, is we may be, and it's always dangerous to say this time it's different, but we may actually be on the precipice because of artificial intelligence, where everything really is going to change, and to put a really fine point on it, you said the exact reason why, this is what Ray Kurzweil calls the singularity, which people are now defining differently, but I think the right way to define the singularity around artificial intelligence is, it is the point at which you can no longer predict the future. Your ability to understand how many zeroes, the zero principle meaning that we go from zero to one, just over and over, these are things that weren't guessable from the previous moment, they are the Einsteinian breakthrough of, oh no, no, no, Newtonian physics is actually wrong, it's special relativity, it's general relativity, it's all completely different quantum world, it was always there, but now we're like, holy cow, this is really, really different.
The Zero Principle. (01:35:02)
So when you have Einstein level zero to one realizations coming off at 10 a day, a hundred, a thousand a day, where you have a computer that can do 20,000 years worth of self-improvement overnight, you can't predict the next hour, let alone the next day, week, whatever.
In order to understand the future of technology we need to cooperate (01:35:17)
- That's right. - So if we really are on the precipice of that moment, then it's like, well, we have to be uniquely thoughtful. So to bring your whole world view together, and then we'll go into kernel, it's, hey, because that's so real, and oh, by the way, it all starts with this food, which is why we began the episode here, because you have to change your biology in order to change a frame of reference, in order to see this moment clearly enough, but now this moment is very real, and we have to find a way to align our goals internally, interpersonally, and with artificial intelligence. - Well said. - I have the chills because I'm worried that you're right, and that this is a really big, complicated thing, but how true to how I've experienced life that it all begins with food. Okay. - Yeah. - Kernel start, sorry. - I just one thing on yours, the whole thing is basically, something big is happening. Wouldn't it be amazing if we could cooperate? That's it. - And to cooperate, I need to help you with your biology. - In order for us to cooperate, we need to cooperate within ourselves, and then cooperate with each other, and cooperate with this new form of intelligence, and we need to cooperate with planet Earth. We need to cooperate to move forward. And that's, if you look at the world and you measure the acrimony and the violence and the hate, like yes things are moving along, but could we do a better job? And so really boil a whole thing down, yes, like can we figure out systems of cooperation? - Okay. I took down a quote, but I turned my phone off, so I'm gonna have to paraphrase it, this is you. It goes something like this. I can't imagine a world in which, in I think it was 50 years, in 50 years from now, that humans are relevant if they can't learn to read and write in the language of the brain. You didn't say language of the brain, but neurology or something like that. What do you mean by that? And how is Kernel helping to address that? In the same way that blueprint makes maintaining perfect diet and engineering discipline. So we're not, we're trying to avoid guesswork. We're trying to avoid people riffing on the spot. We're trying to say we want as good of data as we can, from as many data points as we can, we want to look at evidence, we want to do a protocol. I'm suggesting it might make sense to do the same thing with our mind, the wellness of our minds. And so when you buy an appliance, you don't think about whether it's going to fit through your door. You just assume it will and you don't think about it. And we do all kinds of things every day where we just do something, 'cause we assume that it's just going to work in society. So society builds itself according to engineering standards. We figure out the size of a door, then appliances are built for that size and all the above. We currently have few ways to build engineering standards around our own mental wellbeing, 'cause we don't have measurement. And so we have a cognition crisis in the world today with mental health. And we have, as a way of measurement, we have our feelings to express, but we don't have good ways to measure the brain frequently with high resolution. And it leaves us with this huge blind spot. So how much social media is good for the brain? How much social interaction is good for the brain? What happens when someone does ketamine or to the brain of our 30 day time period? What happens when someone does an SSRI? What happens when and fill in that blank with hundreds of examples? We don't have good examples. We don't have good data. So the technology to image the brain, goal standard, you know, fMRI, but it's too big and too expensive. It's a multi-million dollar machine, room size system on the lower end, you have EEG, which is easier to do, but it's not good enough. So there's this huge gaping hole, which is why none of us measure our brains on a regular basis. And so the idea with kernels, we've built this helmet that can measure your brain. It looks at your cortex and we can answer questions. So for example, I did ketamine while wearing this brain device flow.
Mere has collected 35 days of daily brain data while on ketamine (01:40:12)
- Interesting. - And we looked at my brain. - My ketamine of all the drugs. It was the fastest path to do, because we could do it in healthy participants. If we did something like psilocybin or MDMA, we had to set up a trial. And so this is a way for us to do it quickly. But we wanted to pose the question, what happens in the brain when someone does ketamine? And so I measured my brain every day for five days, then I measured it when I did ketamine. I had a 68 milligram intramuscular dose, according to an FDA recipe. And then I measured my brain for 30 days after. And we now have data showing what happened in my brain over a 35 day time period when I did ketamine. And it helps baseline. So what we show from the study is a 15% study that a person's response to ketamine predicted their depressive symptoms a week later. - Their response to ketamine. So not taking it or not taking it, how they responded. - The amplitude of their response, actually how they responded to ketamine predicted their depressive symptoms a week later. Meaning if you define responded, like positively, what was the data point? - Just meaning like the signatures of the brain response that we recorded.
5 days before, on, and 30 days after, documenting response (01:41:22)
- So the type of signature, how universal is the signature? - Like for example, think of how carrots create a response in you if you're a glycemic. So same thing, ketamine, someone experiences ketamine, everyone has a varied response. And so what you're trying to solve with ketamine is who is it going to work on? How well is it working? How many doses do they need? - Well what frequency? - For depression. - Yeah, or for anything else ketamine could be used for. But you're basically trying to figure out, just like, okay so think of curl like a blood glucose monitor. You put that on and you're trialing certain foods. Like when I eat grapes, spikes, carrots, spike, when I eat this and you're creating this intuition of what happens to your body when you have these foods and you're trying to say-- - So have you created an AI algorithm that says these brain patterns or brain states, I'm not sure how you think about it. - So these brain patterns or brain states, they are good and these other ones are bad. And so you took ketamine and you now, four days later, are in good brain activity versus somebody who took it and didn't respond to the degree that we want them to respond and they are now in bad, negative suboptimal. Again, not sure what words you would use, brain patterns. Is that how you're thinking of it? - I mean the language of the discipline is not yet to a good and bad state. They're observations about networks and how they operate. And so it's still in our emergent area, but you can tease out what are the defining patterns of a person's experience. - So we know what depression looks like. - Yeah, it's starting to get, exactly. The patterns of these things. And again, the science is emerging, but just to basically say, we can acquire patterns of the brain that give us insight to these basic questions. Should a person, du ketamine, MDMA, an SSRI, breath work, nothing, blank, blank, blank, blank. We don't know. And should they do one of these or ten of these? And how do you manage to markers? And should they eliminate social media from their day to day? And should they, we just have no idea how to modulate the well-being of our brain. - How good is the reading? So I've seen the video of it, looks really cool, but is that like feeling micro bumps through mittens, or are we like really like able to get a good read? How good is the helmet? That's the question. - It's better than what we have right now, which is nothing. And so another study we did, which will help build intuitions, we looked at alcohol dose response. So we said we had a placebo, a low, and then a medium alcohol. And so we found that when people had a low alcohol response, they became impaired. When they did behavioral measures, you couldn't identify their impairment. They behaved as if they were not impaired. We could see the impairment in the brain, because the brain compensates for the impairment, and the person performs as well in the task as though they were not impaired, but we can see it. When they became sufficiently intoxicated, they became so impaired, the brain lost its ability to make up for it. So this is the same thing that happens in cognitive decline. So cognitive decline starts many, many years before the behavioral measures happen, because the brain is compensating for the decline. And so this whole idea is we can record things in the brain that we are unaware of. And so in this case, when people were self-reporting, whether or not they were intoxicated and impaired, it was wildly inaccurate. And so the fundamental question is, can I rely upon my self-report, my ability to feel what I'm experiencing reported, is that an accurate representation of what is going on in my brain? No. So if we can't rely upon that, and we can't measure it, we're flying blind in society as we build systems of mental wellness. Which, like you look at the world, it's like we're, I don't know if we're doing great. I don't know if we give ourselves a five-star review in the mental wellness of society. And so flow is meant to say, we can record this brain activity, and we can apply it to everything that will allow us to create intuitions, and data, and protocols. So it's basically blueprint, but for the brain, where you're taking this system of measurement, and it gives scientists ways to measure their psychedelics, you know, as they develop these things, whether they want a, 'cause we could pick up a signature of whether someone is going through a altered state of conscience or not. It's something that could level up the way in which we fix things that are broken to the brain and improve things that are working. - Are you guys using AI? 'Cause this feels like I can use it, I can kick off all this data, but if I don't have something that's aggregating these patterns, then, and not just aggregating them, but looking at them and associating them, either with self-reported feelings or something, but something has to make the correlation, right? Something has to tell me, your HRV was too flat, and, by the way, you want this much variability as optimal. Do you guys have that kind of read on the data?
Hrv For The Brain - Default Mode Network (01:46:35)
- So that is exactly what we're trying to do right now. So we are looking at basically an HRV for the brain. So we're looking at the default mode network, which is a big circuit in the brain that is very studied. And when the default mode network is poorly regulated, sometimes bad things happen, ADHD, depression, anxiety, when the default mode network is well-regulated, a person's in a better state. Now, there's a lot of studies showing the power of looking at the default mode network. And what we've done is we've built a system where you put flow in your head, you look at a screen, and you're training your default mode network. So it's almost, I think about trying to control, move your ear. You're not quite sure how to do it. You just think about it long enough, and eventually you find the muscle, and it's like, ah, there it is, I can now move my ear. - So you're using it like biofeedback? - And now you're a neurofeedback. - Whoa. - And so it's basically, think of it like you-- - So I can watch it live? - Exactly, you watch a screen. So we all know going to the gym to work out biceps, to work out the legs. You do exercises, it gets stronger, it helps you in everything you know, in life. We're saying you can basically go to the gym for a brain muscle that's really important to everything. Managing things that have gone wrong, improving things that are going well, preparing yourself for adversity. So there's a lot of studies showing the promise. It's not yet beyond reproach that it's there. We're trying to prove the science. But that's what we think is potentially the most interesting thing right now is, can we isolate the default mode network? Can people wear this, and can they do biofeedback looking at a screen, and learn how to build this muscle? And if they do that, I mean, for example, could soldiers do this, so that when they encountered something that was PTSD inducing, it'd be less of a blow? Or could you do something where when a person's in a negative state of anxiety, depression, then instead of taking a pill to try to address it, they build the muscle to counteract it, and it's an active thing they do. And so we're excited about this, where our first data's coming out in a month, where we're at. We need to answer questions like how many people can successfully do this, over how many sessions, how long does it last, so it's still emergent. But we like the idea as a practical demonstration of build a muscle in your brain that helps you be resilient to bad things, and improve the things that are already working well. - Dude, so I used, I had a very debilitating back problem at one point, where it was technically my scalenes.
Experiences With Biofeedback And Neurorfeedback
Biofeedback Neurorfeedback Experience (01:49:07)
So I couldn't even sit or stand, like everything was uncomfortable. I'm not a crier, but it maybe want to cry, like I had this sense of like, if I could just weep about this, that I would somehow have emotional catharsis that I needed. It was that, like all encompassing in my life, oh God, it was miserable. And I of course thought, well, it's a problem here with my scalenes, or it's a problem with my neck. As it turned out, it's the mid of my back, had a weakness, and when I went to see a physiotherapist, he was like, oh, I know exactly what your problem is, I see this a lot, like you need to fire these muscles. And I'm like, I am firing those muscles. He's like, no, you're not. And he was like touching me, he's like, you're not firing them at all. And he's like, I'm gonna give you a biofeedback device. I'm gonna put a little electrode or whatever on that part of the muscle. And this device is gonna beep whenever you actually fire that. And it was life-changing. So I finally learned, I was like, I was like, oh my God. And so by being able to hear it, I completely eliminated my scaling problem, because I was able to finally figure out how to work out those muscles, was just mind-blowing. So as somebody who has struggled with profound anxiety, the thought of being like, ah, I know what scenarios, put the helmet on and be like, there's calm. Dude, that could be, I've heard you. We're not sure yet. Lots left to do. But if that works anything like the biofeedback that I got on my back, that's life-changing. - Yeah, I love your experience. That's exactly what we're trying to do. - So how does one encounter that now? Is it they have to come to your clinic and it's all sort of pre-commercialization? - Yeah, we're actually getting volunteers right now to do our preliminary study. Then we'll do a second study based upon those results. So yeah, you can come to Colonel. I think we have it on the website, you can sign up. And then if we can show compelling results, we want to get this to clinics all over the world. And we want this to be in people's homes. Because if, like you're saying, if you can in fact focus on this brain muscle and it has this connection to a whole bunch of things, it could be meaningfully impactful in a lot of people's lives. And it's not just, the device doesn't just work for the default network, it's just the network we chose. But there's all kinds of networks in the brain we could train it on. And so it's just the very beginning. And then once you have the data and the networks, you start playing with interventions. Like, okay, so now you're doing this exercise. Now you can add these other things. Does it help? Does it hurt? Does it accelerate? And that's really, we're trying to kick off an enthusiastic improvement of our mental wellbeing across the board. So not just address things that are bad, like ADHD, depression and so on, but also performance, concentration and imagination and creativity and resilience. And so it's full spectrum. And so the technology's built, it took us five years to build. People suggested to us as impossible. We did it successfully, the team's remarkable. And now we need to prove the science in this window of time we have, which is a big task. And we chose an impossibly hard thing to do with this company. - Yes, you did. Now, what is the hard part? Is it getting the light through the skull? Is it making sense of the damage, I guess, for people that don't know, that's what you guys are doing using photons, right? You shoot them into the brain. It's exactly the way the sun works. So nobody should be freaked out. Sun penetrates you far deeper than people realize. So you're zapping photons in people's brains. Some of them bounce back out. The ones that come back out tells us what we need to know about what's going on. Is that the hard part? Like what's the impossibly hard part? I mean, it's like everything's hard. Yeah, it's basically it's a pulse oximeter. So a lot of people became familiar with pulse oximeters during COVID. You put this on your finger, you see a red glow and it tells you your heart rate and your blood oxygenation. And so it's just a pulse oximeter for the brain. Very safe, like you said, it's less light in your brain than you're going on the sun. And by looking, by doing that, you tease out patterns of the brain. So you can see how the brain is firing, which regions are talking to which regions. So yeah, there's really beautiful matrix of data. And so it's like, yeah, it's just, it's the once you have a device that can acquire information. Like so a blood glucose monitor you wear, or like a genome sequence or a microbiome sequence or a blood panel, whenever you have these measurements you get, it creates an entire ecosystem that surround itself with the measurement and they build around it. And right now we're flying blind to the brain. You know, like, so it is trying to create a formal, data-driven discipline around our mental wellbeing. It's the only device in the world that has the ability that is low-cost enough, high-quality enough and easy enough to use. There's nothing else that can do it. And so we need to show this can punch through. We have not done that yet. We're close, but now we're just playing in the realm of science and you just can't predict science. We don't know when we're gonna reach a threshold to say, it's there. Maybe in a month, it could be a three months, it could be 12 months, we don't know.
Deep tech is a hard process. (01:54:29)
And that's the hard thing about Deep Tech is you can't engineer science in a way that is predictable. - Yeah, and you seem to really be following the data, which I really appreciate. So using the technology on a daily basis to find some sort of ability to use that muscle in order to shape the way that you feel is one of those things that, man, that could really be transformational, but I wanna know why did you go down that path? So I know you and Elon spoke early on in the process and you were originally about implantation into the brain. And so tying this back into your quote, if humans don't figure out how to write, read and write in the language of neurology, they're gonna be irrelevant. Why did you give up on what seems like it would be way more, like you'd be able to do far more manipulation if you actually get inside the brain. - Yeah, my analysis was that building an implantable product takes around 10 years. Yes, once you build it, go through trials, get the clinical outcomes, it's like 10 years ago to market thereabouts.
Non-invasive tech and implants. (01:55:44)
And then you start the rollout process, you're going through the healthcare system and insurance companies, it's a long, slow process. Now it has its place and it's done, there's over 300,000 people who have implants today. - Whoa. - So it's been wildly successful to treat things like Parkinson's and other things. It has shortcomings in that it's not scaled very easily. You're dealing with surgery and you're dealing with neural surgeons, how many people can actually do it. At the time, nobody thought there was a non-invasive path to do it. And if you just surveyed the world and sample people, everyone would have told you no path. And so we spent two years looking at every possible path we could look at according to laws of physics. And we did everything and we found a path that we could just barely see through everything how to work to make that happen. And we threaded the needle and we succeeded. We built the technology, it works. We have peer review publications on this and it does it. And so my bet was the time scale it takes to develop an implantable product is gonna be a hard one because the other technologies will come and compete with. It will be less invasive, will come along at a faster clip than this development process. It'll be better to be a non-invasive for the short term. And then secondarily is when you write to the brain, you of course can stimulate. So if you're implanted in the brain, you can stimulate a region in the brain, but there's a hundred billion neurons. You're not gonna stimulate all hundred billion neurons. Whereas you and I right now are stimulating each other's neurons through audiovisual inputs. So if you have a device on the head, you have the full human sensory system for the inputs. You can write to the brain through all those modalities. And that's what I wanted to try to trade off is, could you build a device that could be scaled across the globe, standardize the measurement of our brains, give every scientific discipline the ability to use this data to improve their disciplines, to improve the human condition. And then you can have all these modalities to write to the brain. So could you start a new era of human wellbeing in our minds with this basic measurement of the brain? And that was the bet we've made.
Updates On Kernel'S Progress
The progress and promise of Kernel. (01:58:05)
And so we succeeded in the first part of the technology build. We now have to show our first market demonstration. So the investors say we're good. You know, like we've, I've poured heart and soul, I've put over, I've put almost $60 million into this company. And taking it through COVID and the financial crisis, like it's just been, it's been unbelievably hard to build. - It's a pretty big challenge. - You know, and I'd say like, which makes these results on blueprint that much more impressive. If you look at the amount of stress that I felt in building this startup with these difficulties and still achieve these results. I mean, like I'm not-- - You'd be 19 if you weren't a founder. - I mean, I'm not, yeah. I'm not just chilling at home all day. Like, you know, like building a startup is an absolute full contact sport. I mean, it's brutal. And then this company is brutal. And so, yeah, it's been fun to do both. Colonel's been extraordinarily taxing. You know, it's tough. - I bet, brother, what a joy. This has been, where can people follow you? - Twitter, I mostly hang out and have a conversation there. Brian, I'm just going to go to Johnson. - Awesome. I'll be coming at you hot and fast on Twitter, man. This was so fun. Guys, if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and until next time, my friends, be legendary. Peace. - If you want the secrets to reversing aging and looking younger, be sure to watch this episode here. Reversing aging of the eye, that's not hard at all. But we can reverse the age of the liver, the skin, other labs are doing the spleen, thymus, through this method.