THE BIG RESET: Use AI To Build Wealth & GET AHEAD Of 99% Of People | Peter Diamandis & Salim Ismail | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "THE BIG RESET: Use AI To Build Wealth & GET AHEAD Of 99% Of People | Peter Diamandis & Salim Ismail".

1970-01-17T09:26:45.000Z

Note: This transcription is split and grouped by topics and subtopics. You can navigate through the Table of Contents on the left. It's interactive. All paragraphs are timed to the original video. Click on the time (e.g., 01:53) to jump to the specific portion of the video.


Introduction

Intro (00:00)

You guys are on something that is just my absolute obsession right now, and you make a very bold claim in your new book. You said that the next billion dollar company will be founded by three people. How is that possible? First of all, I want to say that we're living in a different day and age. The ability to start companies today that are exponential, and the name of the book is ExponentialOrganizations 2.0. You play book for 10x growth and impact. It's a series of attributes that never existed before, and AI is going to play the biggest role without question, but it's all the exponential technologies.


Ai Application And Benefits In Organizations

Conversation Start (00:32)

Salim? Yeah, if you look back in history, maybe 50, 70 years ago, it needed about a 10,000 person company to create a billion dollar valuation. That's crazy. Then it dropped to about 1,000 people. Instagram was 13 people. Now we'll get it down to three people, because AI will handle most of the execution work. We'll have a CEO who will drive vision and product.


AI CS Is to Train Companies from 100 to 1 (01:00)

A product I will focus just on getting things done in an operations person that will handle everything else. You should just have AI bots doing all the finances, marketing, etc. As somebody who's deploying AI as rapidly as humanly possible, and I know that people have a lot of anxiety around this, it's still for all of AI's immediate use, as it still seems hard to imagine that big leap. How should people be using AI right now if they want to be on that path? One of the things I'm doing in the companies that I'm running or advising or investing in is I'm saying, first of all, every company needs to have what I call a chief AI officer. It's a role I made up, was teaching at a button 360 this year, and it is not someone who's building a large language model for you or writing code for you. It's an individual who understands what's going on in the terrain because we're seeing not hundreds or thousands, tens of thousands of startups. Everybody, you can start an AI company now with literally spare time in your garage. Understanding what's out there, what the modalities are, and what you can and should be using is critical. Chief AI officer is scanning the horizon, understanding it, and then advising members of your team. Every part of your team. There's going to be AI supporting sales and marketing and engineering and HR. We're all going to have in the near term an AI co-pilot. This is an AI that helps you do your job better because we are so limited as carbon life forms. Ultimately, it's going to be able to operate and do a number of the things repetitively because we do a lot of repetitive tasks and AI is much better at that. I think if you've got, we've got say a 30 person company, every single person needs to be trained in AI and using these chatbot auto-GPT tools and absolutely augment themselves 10, 20, 100x. I have said to my company, okay, everybody here needs to figure out in your department what are the tools that exist in AI and how can you immediately implement them.


How to Start Using AI Tools (02:59)

But even that's pretty vague. I'm just sort of dumping it on them. Where do people start? What is the thing you actually do? Be in super specific. If you have an email newsletter that goes out, use chat your PT to say, how would I increase the engagement rate with this email? We did that. We got a 25% increase over it. You can feed it the email? You feed it the email. And you say how do we make this better? Yeah. Come up with a better headlight. Or put in social sharing links throughout it. Or say, listen, I'm in HR. Could a chat GPT open up right now if you hopefully you have the GPT4 version of it and say, I'm in HR. How should I be using generative AI in my business? It'll feed you. Give me five examples or ten examples. Pick the one that sounds good. Give me step-by-step instructions on how to use this. It's recursive in that fashion. And so you're going to use AI to help you learn what you want to know. It comes back a lot to mindset, Tom. And you need the mindset of a kid here. Curiosity. Absolute play. It's like, one of the things I'm going to be doing in my team, my PhD ventures, it runs a button 360 and a few others, we're setting aside three days. And no home, we're coming out of these three days. We're going to go in with a series of objectives and we're going to actually crank for three days and generate all the content, all the plans. And you can. But it takes time for all of us to switch from our old habits of how we do things to making you way.


Get a Lets Go Mindset (04:43)

So the first time it's going to take 150% of your time. The next time we'll take 50% and 25%. You talk about mindset. The thing I see and I'm sure you guys have encountered this is a lot of people, they just have so much anxiety about this is going to replace me. I think about that a lot. So Lisa and I have put our fortune back at risk to build this company. And you've said this a lot. I've said this a lot. Skate to where the puck is going to be, not where the puck is. The problem is right now it feels like the puck is teleporting. And so it becomes very difficult to know where that puck is actually going to be. So how do you guys think about that? And you guys talk in your book about the fact that the average company used to be on the S&P 500 for like 67 years. It's down to 15. We're expecting it to just keep dropping. So how do we not just get disrupted seven minutes after we figure out how to use AI? Well, I think there's a few different things going on here.


Dont Be a Dinosaur (05:41)

The first is you should talk about the asteroid analogy. Because I think that sets the framing for what's actually happening here. I view what's going on in the business world today similar to the asteroid 20 kilometer asteroid that struck the earth 65 million years ago and wiped out the dinosaurs. The asteroid changed the environment of earth so rapidly, so dramatically that the slow lumbering dinosaurs who didn't adapt when extinct. And it was the furry little mammals, our ancestors that were agile enough to adapt that survived and thrived. So the asteroid striking earth right now are exponential technologies with AI as the overlord there. And it's just going to change the environment so rapidly that you need agility.


Have a Unique Value Prop (06:28)

You need a team that is agile. One of the things I would say is also what do you own that is unique? Whether it's characters in a Disney's characters that they own versus having a movie distribution system. What do you have that's uniquely yours? What data do you have? What processes do you have? What assets do you have? That as the tech changes, you can take that data on those assets and put it through the new tech. This is my hypothesis.


Break Through the Noise (07:01)

Let me know what you think about this. So AI is going to generate a ton of noise. So even as you were saying like, "Hey, I'm an HR person. How do I do this? Or how do I make this email better?" Everybody's going to have access to that same thing and that lead Google memo about AI has no moat and AI has no moat. And so we're all going to be able to use this. And so as somebody making a video game and somebody thinking about IP, the real thing you have to get good at is getting people to care. And so it's that Disney has gotten people to care about their characters. So when you think about AI making the creation of art instantaneous, a big part of what made art cool before was the sense of, "I couldn't do that." And so when somebody presents you with something that you couldn't do, you're like, "Whoa, that's so cool." And you have this really emotional response. Now I'm like, "I could do that." Or I might even be able to do something better than that. So now it's like when I see just a wall of AI art, my brain still goes to the characters I care about. So my thing is in a world where we are going to get disrupted incredibly fast, in a world where now the game really is about making people care, how do people break through the noise and maybe even more specifically, how do you stay emotionally sober long enough to try to break through the noise? So this goes straight to the first and most important characteristic of an EXO, which is the massive transformative purpose.


AI Will Make Things Better for the Masses, Not Individuals (08:23)

When you pick a problem that you are deeply passionate about, say, curing cancer, you put all your emotional energy into that. Peter talks about the emotional connection that gets created. No matter what the tool set is or what the capabilities are, your emotional connection to that and the passion you bring to it is the thing that will separate you out from everybody else. Somebody has us to come to it with exactly enough the same passion and have access to the same tools. And that's what will win out. That will be the steadying ship for how do you navigate this chaotic world. Is what fundamental problem do I get excited about? And I'm just going to go after that problem and stick with it. Yeah, I think you nailed it, Tom. The idea of an exponential org, what we lay out is the number one thing that an entrepreneur or a more advanced company needs to do is establish that MTP, that massive transformative purpose. And once that's established, then there's a whole slew of 10 different attributes that allow you to scale and allow you to build something. But in a world where there's this abundance of opportunity, where we're drowning in opportunity and your attention is your most important asset here, that you're going to gift a company to be connected to that company's MTP. So when Elon gets up on stage and says, "We're going to build a multi-planetary species, we're going to Mars, we're going to help save the human race," and so forth, people connect in their heart and their mind to that. If some company stands up and says, "We're going to provide better shareholder returns," I mean, it's just noise. This is two big challenges big companies have. First, they're not passion-driven in the same way as some of the new breed of organizations as they don't have an MTP, for example. In fact, the way this came about was when we first put the original version of the book together in 2014, we scanned 200 unicorns and said, "How are they doing it? How are they scaling so fast?" So the EXO model is not something we invented. We labeled what was already happening and put a framework around it. And without exception, every single one of these companies that was moving very fast had this MTP. They were all dedicated to one particular problem, ways, solving traffic or Uber. They should have a private driver. And it acts as the kind of the north star, the Simon Sineck question of why do you exist, etc. Big companies have two problems. The first is they typically tend not to be purpose-driven. Their brands are tilting that way more and more. But secondly, there's this old economic theory called COSA's Law, written in the 1930s. It's a nine-page paper for which he won the Nobel Prize, this guy called Ronald COSA. And he theorizes that big companies exist because transaction costs are lower inside the company than outside and that you can achieve economies of scale that way. And in this book, we declare COSA's Law dead because economies of scale can be applied to an individual now who can scale to a global level. And economies of scale and the controlling factors of big companies prevent you from moving in any kind of agile way. So therefore, all the advantages with the single individuals or small teams with a passion. And that's where we think the future will go. Okay, so I can predict out and anybody listening to the sound of my voice right now should be aware that I very much have my money where my mouth is. And so my fears are very real. The prediction that I will make is that AI will make things better for the masses in ways we just cannot fathom and it will be absolutely incredible, but it does not care about the individual at all. And so while the consumer will win, I will be very interested to see what happens to people building businesses because they will just come and go.


Bold HiMike (12:11)

They will get disrupted so fast that it will begin to ask a new question of entrepreneurs, which is, can you dedicate your life's energy to something you know will be obliterated in three years? Interesting, like the Sand Art in India. Yeah. Jesus, that hurts. Yeah, but it's interesting. It's really, it's truly letting go. It's non-attachment. So one of the underlying principles of an exponential organization, you and I talked about this when we did our early podcasts on abundance or bold or futures faster, is the six D's of an exponential, right? When you digitize any product or service and every single product and service is or will be digitized. And if you're a CEO running a company where your services are not digitized, you're in trouble because someone else is going to do it to you. In the early days, the growth of that product or service is deceptively slow. It's like the first digital cameras that were 0.01 megapixels, the next year was 0.02, then 0.04. All look like zero. It was deceptive. Everyone ignored it. You know, 20 doublings, it's a million times better. 30 doublings, it's a billion times better. And codecs had a business. All right, so we go from digitized to deceptive to disruptive. And what happens?


The six Ds of exponential Organizations by Salim Ismail (13:27)

You dematerialize, demonetize and democratize. So dematerialization is we don't carry codec cameras or film around anymore. They're an app on your phone, right? And when things become ones and zeros, the cost of replicating them is effectively free and the cost of transmitting them is effectively free. So they're demonetized. I can send my digitized whatever around the world to a billion people for free and then it's democratized. Everyone has access to it. So yes, we are heading towards this massive a world of abundance, right? Where the best education, the best health care is provided by an AI effectively for the cost of electricity, right? So it's going towards zero. But would anybody go to medical school anymore? And by the way, it's going to become out practice to diagnose someone without AI as your co-pilot. Probably within the next five years. It's not the two. That's crazy. So this is happening. And yeah, it's going to flip a bit or two here because a lot of wealth is created when you create something and retain it for yourself. And you sell it off a little bit at a time or you build a platform that other people build on top of. But I remember I was on stage at Singular University. I had Astro Teller who was heading Google's moonshot factory and Steve Jervitsen on the board of Tesla and SpaceX. He was one of the top venture capitalists. And we're talking about a future in which AI is able to iterate on hardware and software so rapidly that if you announce a new product or a service, someone else has cracked it, replicated it, and provided a better version of it minutes later. So what happens when intellectual property is useless? Because I don't want to protect myself by having IP rates. I want to protect myself by having the best product available. Things are getting very much faster and better. But it's going to change the world. Yeah. I mean, if you go take your analogy, then any product or service you build may be rendered obsolete pretty quickly. Then you lift above that to go, okay, then what's the narrative or story or framing you put around that? That's a little bit longer lasting. And about that are the mindsets. If you have the right mindset, then you don't care if your MTP is curing cancer and somebody gets there a little before you're like, yeah, somebody got there. Fantastic. We go. We cured cancer. Awesome. Pick another MTP and keep going. I don't think that's going to be the human response. It's the ego doesn't want that. It is. I'm going to paraphrase a guy named Salim Ismail. You guys may have heard of him. And he said that we're going to need an upgrade to the human mind or we're not going to be able to deal with the rate of change. And I think that's really real. And right now we don't have said upgrade to the human mind. And if I can-- You haven't gotten yours yet, huh? I have not. If you have an inbox somewhere, please, by all means, give it to me. I would also-- I'd like to paraphrase you again. Sure. I'm going to respond. You said that somebody asked you, well, wait a second, OK, a world of abundance. It sounds amazing, but isn't that going to damage GDP? And you said, yes, it's going to tank GDP. For those who don't know what that is, basically the economy. So abundance, the thing that we want is going to tank the global economy. Should we not be terrified? Well, it's just one of these transitions. One way I frame it is this next 30 years will dictate the next 300 years. But is it one of those infactment? Is this going to be a 30 years of just terror in the streets running and screaming? As Peter will tell you, abundance doesn't mean unicorns and flowers and things. It means opportunity for all. I call it. I say abundance is not about a life of luxury for everybody. It's about a life of possibility. Interesting. Whoa. So go into that. Look, I know you very well, Peter. And having researched you, Celine, I know you well enough to know you guys are very much of a similar ilk. Celine, you said very publicly you don't think AI is dangerous. But walk me through the darker side of that if you don't mind indulging that angle, which I know is not your natural angle, but walk me through the sort of underlying terror of possibility is different. I say, please, and thank you to Alexa every morning. That's my name. The AI overlords, I want them when they come forward to like remember me. Peter, you are always nice to us. That's right. One of my CTOs from one of my companies years ago, we asked him what's the purpose in life and he goes, I want to evolve to the point that my computer is proud of me. And we had no idea what he was talking about it. And now we're like, oh, yeah, that's what he meant. I think, again, there's the dark side. The dark side is, I think the biggest dark side is malicious use of these technologies, right? The other thing that I want to talk about is the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. And I want to talk about the data that we have. OK, here's an environment for the first time where a human being can easily do a positive strand action or a fraudulent one. Easy to mask my email address, put a MacBook up for sale, a photograph of it, and walk up for the thousand bucks. So what's the actual ratio of good to bad?


The ratio of good to bad in emergence (19:09)

And after researching this quite thoroughly, they found that across multiple systems like this, Craigslist, eBay, et cetera, the actual ratio of good to bad was something like 8,000 to 1. OK? So there's 8,000 positive for each negative. Now, that tells you that when we have a new technology like drones, first response is, oh my god, the drone might be loaded up with C4 and flown into the White House, let's ban the drones, or put chips in there, regulate the hell out of it, et cetera, and stop the drones or stop autonomous cars or whatever CRISPR, whatever the AI now is the flavor of the month. Well, what actually we see, if you actually let anybody use it, the data shows that 8,000 people will do the positive thing in one person and it'll be easy to spot that one person will do the negative thing. The problem is the amplitude of that one is obviously very much getting much bigger. And so that's of concern. But this has been the same story since the beginning of time, fire can heat our house and can burn down yours, biotech problems, et cetera. And we worry about it. It never actually comes to fruition. And maybe I'm just an optimist, right? Yeah. I mean, by the way, optimists live seven years longer on the average. You know that, right? I'm not surprised by that, but I will say that there's a new technology rushing towards us that's going to change the world. And I-- Let me answer your question. So when I think about the dangers related to AI, and I'm not going to, you know, I think AI is the most important tool humanity has ever created to solve all of our biggest problems-- No doubt. --period, exclamation point, you know, big, bright letters, having said that, are there dangers? So the dangers can simply break down into three different groups. One at one end is AI becomes conscious and decides to squash us and step on us. I find that very unlikely and ridiculous thesis. I think people have just seen this in Hollywood way too much. I think the more intelligent something is, honestly, the more loving and kind and pro life it will be. Why? Why would that be true? It is my belief. Other than I see humanity becoming as a whole over time, if you look at the numbers, right, and we've looked at this from abundance, warfare reducing massively over time, violent death reducing massively over time, access to freedom increasing over time. I mean, the numbers over a thousand years, not over the last five, 10, 20 years, but over a thousand years. And that's come from educating each other with books and transportation connecting us across the world and globalization and interdependence. All of these things have led to, it's hard to remember this, watching the Crisis News Network, right, CNN every day that's broadcasting every murder on the planet to you over and over and over again. It's shaping our neural nets, our brains in neural nets that we teach from example after example. And I don't watch the news, right? I don't want some editor telling me about yet another murder or crooked politician. Got it. And it isn't showing us a fair and balanced view of what's actually going on in the world, the incredible science and technology and humanitarian acts, all over these things. Anyway, so one phase is AGI, artificial general intelligence. Before you move off that though, so what you're describing is human intelligence. And so this is... And societal intelligence. Don't quite know what you mean by that. What I mean is that societal norms organizing around the United Nations. Yes, but all the warn of this meat suit. The brain works in a certain way and computers will not, AI will not work in that same way. I have no reason to believe that AI will work in that same way. Agreed. And it very likely won't. It works, it works differently. Very good point. You can reboot your life, your health, even your career, anything you want. All you need is discipline. I can teach you the tactics that I learned while growing a billion dollar business that will allow you to see your goals through. Whether you want better health, stronger relationships, a more successful career, any of that is possible with the mindset and business programs and impact theory university. Join the thousands of students who have already accomplished amazing things. Tap now for a free trial and get started today. At the end of the day, when we have these crazy Hollywood scripts that AI is going to usurp us for our heat from the Matrix. I love the Matrix. They failed on that use of human bodies. I'm sorry. I don't know if you agree with me on that. I do agree with you and I don't know well enough what their original intention was, but according to them, they were forced by the studio to give a more simplistic answer.


How Sam and Filmmakers Work Together (23:52)

So I let them off the hook for them. Okay. That's right. But we're coming to get your water on this planet. Listen, whatever we have on this planet is infinite in the universe. We are a speck, a crumb, and a universe filled with resources. And so AI doesn't need to squash humanity to get these resources. So AGI, and it's extreme, artificial general intelligence, it's extreme, I don't believe is going to be dystopian in itself. In the middle term, what I would call the terrible twos or the teenage years, maybe there is a case to be made that in the beginning AI hasn't reached full sentience, doesn't understand the power of its tools. Maybe there's a case that it's the baby picking up a rock and throwing it out the window, not understanding what it's the... A teenager with a BB gun and a squirrel. Yes. That's the best one. The third element, which is the most likely, is the malevolent individual. It's the bad actors using technology. And so sometime in the next 18 months, two years, there may well be not a retrovirus released, but an AI virus that goes out and shuts down power plants or shuts down Wall Street and something and causes an economic hurdle. It's not the AI. Those are the humans using that tool, just to be very clear. There's a great book by Mo Gadot called Scary Smart. It came out about a year ago. Do you know the book? I haven't read the book, but I had Mo in the show recently. Yeah. Mo is fantastic. And he basically says, "Listen, I want you to think about AI as a child we're giving birth to as humanity." And that child is being taught by its parents. Now if you think about Superman who lands in Kansas wherever he landed and he's picked up by the Kentz and it's a loving family, he learns good ethics and morals and he becomes a superhero for good. What if Superman had landed in the Bronx and part of a drug lord rank and had become the supervillain? He made me want to write that story. As soon as he started, I was like, "Wait a second." That was a great plot there. So the question is, "We humans, how are we teaching this new life form coming into existence?" I like Neil Jacob's times framing, which is he goes, "Okay, you're worried about an AI getting more and more access to information, becoming an autonomous, making its own decisions and starting to run a muck out in the world." We go, "Yeah." He goes, "We have a precedent for that. We call them children and we raise kids and we figure out ways of giving them timeouts or jail or whatever." And he thinks constructively that we think we'll find ways of bounding what AI's can do. He may be wrong. He may be wrong. I'm not sure I agree with him. Yeah, that seems super naive to me. So when I am optimistic by nature and my default setting is just, "Hey, this is all going to work out somehow." And as soon as we wrap this episode, I'm going to be pushing my team to integrate AI more. I'm going to be paying more money for AI and just feeding that beast. But at the same time, it does give me pauses. I try to think through how you really deal with the alignment problem. So to me, there's two really big dangers for AI. Danger number one, and this is the one that scares me the most, but I'm going to set it aside for a minute. And that's just humans lose meaning and purpose. Just AI can do everything better than they can. It just becomes so defeating that you're just like, "Oh, God." I've worked really hard to get good at this thing. I tell this story all the time. I can't remember if I've told it in an episode, but I employ a bunch of artists. And I once sat with one of them and for like an hour, he was just trying to get the perfect like semicircle and he was just doing it over and over and over and over. And at the time, I thought, "Oh man, yeah, you've got to do that." To be able to articulate what's in his mind, he has to be able to control his hand. And I was like, "Wow, I really get that." Now I'm like, "You wasted your time." AI can do that. It does not even have to think about it. And he is an anomaly. So he runs out and he's now learning how to use AI to do some of the tasks that we want to do artistically. Okay, amazing. We'll set that aside for now, meaning and purpose. The other one is the paperclip problem. So now you just have like when I think about what will a machine end up optimizing for, my gut instinct is unless you go way out of your way to get really clever, they will optimize for efficiency of reward. So whatever you tell it is the thing to go for, we'll call that the reward. And then it's just going to find the most efficient way to get to that. And so we have to be so careful about how we define, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but don't XYZ and then to the idea of it being like a child, yes, but it's like a child that has access to nuclear capabilities." You need to build in ethics and morals as a fundamental in that situation. So it doesn't use as world supplies to build infinite number of paperclips. And it's true. And we have a limited time to do that in. So I think Google developed sort of large language models in 2017, 2018 and didn't release them. Because they were worried. They wanted to build the framework first and they were maybe overthinking it. It's interesting. We were talking about YouTube just before the show here. Google had Google videos going way before YouTube. And Google videos wasn't succeeding. I guess I think it was just too many lawyers involved in where you can't show that, you can't do this. And then Chad Hurley starts YouTube by his credit cards. And then Google buys it 18 months later for $1.65 billion. Why? Because Google videos was like a linear and YouTube was like exploding exponentially. And they jumped on that. And so there is a question of what's path to you take? Do you take the careful path or do you take the path of least resistance? And fortunately we humans tend to take the path of least resistance. Yeah I don't know if I'd say unfortunately. And this is where I really get, I don't know how to think through the problem of AI. Because when I heard Elon's assessment of it, which is that AI is basically a demon summoning circle. And we're summoning it like crazy despite his best efforts to get people to slow down. And I can't bring myself, like when people signed the hey we should stop thing. My immediate response was this is a one way street. It's so far out of the bag. Yeah. Like it does not make sense. Like you could slow it down in a region but you're not going to be able to slow it down full stop. And so I am really of two minds. I am both like I think this is going to be amazing. And yet how does this not end the human race?


Evolutionary Concepts In Exponential Organizations

Life Started 500 Million Years After the Earth Started (31:02)

Well another question is whether the human race is the end all and be all. Right. But don't you feel weird even saying that out loud? Well no because we've been evolving on this planet for three and a half. You know, life started a half a billion after the earth started. So four billion years we've been evolving. And we went from pro-karyotes to eukaryotes to multi-cellular life forms to eventually primates and now humans. We're a step in the transitory process. Now I'd like to preserve our steps. By the way, the same thing is true for climate control or climate crisis, right? It's like the climate's always been changing throughout human history. We're changing it now. But what we really want is the climate to stay the way it's been for the last couple hundred years because that's where we built our cities. So we just want to freeze the way the world is right now. And I understand that and we should do that with climate to the maximum of our ability. But we also want to freeze evolution. Now one of the scenarios of course is we're going to merge with technology and we are. All of us have our cell phones within meters of our body. And I didn't plant it in my brain if I could. So the question is are we going to upload ourselves? Are we going to create brain-computer interfaces that allows me to think in Google and no quantum physics? I'd love it. I mean I would do it. A lot of people won't. But we're speciating what we're doing. I think of this very simply. The negative side of us, the amygdala side, the media, etc. You end up with the Skynet matrix type determinator scenario. If we're lucky, we're pets. If we're unlucky, we're food. Right? Kind of goes that way. Cheers. You don't see that in actuality as we develop technology. We augment the human experience with technology.


arriving from a place of fear (32:51)

We don't replace it. It's what we've seen and how we build. Now I think of the resolution of this as a symmetry problem. We're assuming that some AI will become malevolent and then do horribly damaged things and we have no power to control it. Let's also not forget that we have the equal option to say to you on AI, hey, if you see something bad, fight it. So what you'll end up with is AI is trying to do bad stuff and AI is trying to do good stuff, fighting it up. And I think that's where we'll end up. And over time we'll figure out, okay, we've got to give more resources over here or over there and we'll work that. You may always end up with this asymmetry assumption and I think that's the wrong assumption. You mentioned the movie Her. I did not. Oh, you did not. Let me mention it. It's one of my favorite science fiction AI movies. Right. If you haven't seen it, those listening. And it's an AI basically evolves as a personal assistant. And it's a story about a guy who's depressed, who falls in love with his AI, who helps him get over his depression. And that's sort of like the underlying story. But towards the end of the movie, what occurs is the AI announces that they're leaving. We're sort of like bored with you here in humanity. We're off to explore the universe, which I think is a much more likely scenario that in advance enough AI has no reason to hurt humanity. In fact, every reason to potentially protect us and support us as its creator. But we're living, it's interesting. The web space telescope is teaching us about 100 billion stars per galaxy and we're in a universe of on the order of two to 20 trillion galaxies. It's insane. There's a massive amount out there. This is where the final piece of this is the mindset. We're always coming at this from a scarcity mindset, a zero-sum game mindset. When you see that there's infinite energy and infinite capability out there, then an AI is going to go, "Okay, where am I going to find the easiest thing? It's going to be out there and they're going to go find it." Solar energy, they'll build solar plants and they'll get all the energy you need from that. No, I know that you know physics well. So are you making the base assumption that AI, once it hits, superintelligence will be able to solve for folding time and space. And so it's trivial to get to wherever it needs to go. Now we need psychedelic to process this conversation. Who knows? I believe that those are constructs that keep us in three-dimensional management. But isn't that seems to be writing in that comment that would almost need to be true for that argument to make sense? Or I would say if you're looking for a massive amount of the rare earth elements to build chips or the ability to capture as much solar, it's not going to be on the surface of the earth. You'd go to the asteroids, which are planetary cores and you'd mine the materials there, you'd set up your solar collection around the orbit of Mercury, you'd optimize around that. Or you engineer around it. You know, you find substitutes.


s curves exponential growth (36:06)

You know what people say, "Oh my God, solar panels, there's only so many silicon panels we can build, etc, etc." Well, there's a new material called Perovskite, which is almost just like a salt. It's abundant. Conduct solar energy and we're learning now how to leverage that. It needs solar panels. It's achieved. It's those S curves. Right. That Ray talks about that I think come into play here and just keep progressing. You're going to have to walk people through an S curve and who Ray is. An S curve is a typical exponential growth curve. So in the beginning, we saw the first computers use relays and you would have slow, deceptive growth, they'd go into this exponential growth where they'd start skyrocketing and then they'd run out of capability and they'd fall off and it made like a letter S. But while you're using relays to design and use your computers, you use those computers to create the next generation of computers which used vacuum tubes. And the vacuum tubes could then take over from the relays and then the vacuum tubes ran out of capability and the transistor came on and then the integrated circuit came and then the multidimensional integrated circuit came. So basically one technology runs out of steam but enables you to build on the next technology. And so those are S curves or nested S curves. This was the basis of Ray's observation of the law of accelerating returns that if you have an information based paradigm, once you start a doubling pattern, it just keeps going because the nested S curves hop from technology to technology to technology, we're reaching the end of the life cycle to integrate its circuits now. If you read the press, everybody's like, oh, that's the end of Moore's law, that's it, et cetera. And that article's been coming out for 60 years and we keep finding ways around it. Now we have a bunch of technologies clustering at the edge of that 3D chip design, optical computing, quantum computing, et cetera, that are ready to take to the next level. And so we find this consistently in technology, once you see that doubling pattern starting, it just keeps going. And this Ray's has one of the few brains that can kind of look out and say, this is what's going to happen if we push this a lot of little bit. Just a moment more about Ray. So Ray is, first of all, he wrote the forward to our new book, Exponential Organizations 2.0. He is co-founder of Singularity University. With us, he is director of engineering. He's the futurist at Google, which is, we'll say, something onto itself, right? And he realized that the law of accelerating returns is this idea that technology, since the stone axe has enabled the next generation of technology and the next generation technology, and it just keeps going. I think most important to realize is he's got, if you look at Wikipedia, he's got a published 86% accuracy rate in predicting the future, which is crazy. So his prediction is important for this conversation, human level AI by 2029, which means that a day later, it's superhuman AI. Brain computer interface being high bandwidth connecting your neocortex, 100 billion neurons in your brain, to the cloud in the early 2030s. So those are two important points.


Exponential organizations (39:25)

The key thing, and by the way, we are chatbot that interfaces with our book to make it a living book. We got talked to Ray and we're going to rename the chatbot Ray K because he's the pioneer of so much of this technology and thinking. So now people will interact with things in a different way. And the whole challenge is it's like building businesses in the 20th century, you were building on a scarcity model, and you built top-down hierarchical pyramid-style command and control structures to grab a market, grab as much market shares you could figure out ways of launching new products and services in that market, et cetera. And all of that worked really well in the 20th century. As we have an information-based world, we need to architect our organizations in totally different ways. And this is the big differentiator between old-style organizations, linear versus exponential organizations. And we now have the data to show that this is a pervasive paradigm that will be around. The book's been out for close to 10 years now. The original book. The original, yeah, so Peter and I kind of collaborated deeply on back then. So now we've got this definition and a model for how do you organize in a world of exponential technologies. And a great kind of example of this is the music industry. You used to have eight major music studios selling cassettes, selling CDs, selling a scarcity model, $10 an album or whatever. And then you digitize music. All the eight pretty much disappear. Now you have two platforms, iTunes and Spotify, selling you abundance on a subscription model. It's very clear that healthcare, education, transportation, energy will all follow the same path. And we're starting to see it now, Tesla's with, you'll be picked up and pay per kilometer to be taken somewhere. Uber is kind of broaching the edges of that. So we see industry after industry moving to this new model. And what we've been identifying and gathering the data on is what are the attributes and characteristics of this model. So before we dive too deep into that, I want to go back to this idea of what you call it, speciation. speciation. Yes. So there was, as far as I can tell from Elon's own words, there was a bit of a breakup between him and Larry Page where he was there. Really. And so what Elon said was basically when he said that I was being a speciest by saying that I didn't just want to hand things over to AI, that's where he was like, okay, wait, this has gone too far. And that's why when you said that, that was how I responded. It was like, whoa, I get it, but there is something uncomfortable about the idea of sort of saying that we're Pase, I don't know, the right way to. That we're evolving. And we have been and are evolving.


Speciation (42:16)

We're going from evolution by natural selection, which is Darwinism, to evolution by human direction, by whatever you want to call that. What does that mean? Well, we've been doing it right now. We have been evolving all of our crops, right? We take biology and make it do our bidding, an ear of corn today compared to what it was 500 years ago, it's ridiculous. The ear of corn looked like a scraggly little, I don't know. It was one inch long. One inch long. And I think this giant ear of corn or look at these giant strawberries we have or the species of dogs or the chickens we have. How many chickens are on the planet today? I do not. 38 billion chickens. Whoa. Holy moly, right? Wow. Amazing. Anyway, that's an aside. So we have been evolving everything. We humans have a huge footprint on this planet and we're evolving ourselves. We're evolving. I mean, I outsource much of my cognitive ability to my phone or chat GPT or Google, whatever the case might be. And it is happening. You can go and live in the forest and not use any tech if you want, but very few people do that. So what does this mean? If you have a choice to be able to do a number of things to enhance your ability, right? A lot of my work, as you well know, is in extending the healthy human lifespan. How do I add 20, 30 healthy years of my life to intercept the technologies that's going to reverse our aging, right? And that's a whole other conversation.


Brain computer interface (43:53)

And I believe we're going to get there. But I also want to increase my cognitive capacity. So my phone, hold on my phone here, right? And I use my phone to do something interesting, like look at images and faces and translate or whatever. My phone gathers the information and then it sends the information on the 5G network to the edge of the cloud where the hard work is done and the answer comes back to the phone. The processing isn't done necessarily on the phone. It's done on the cloud. And in the same way right now, we have a limited size of our brains, 100 billion neurons, 100 trillion synaptic connections, and our brains can't get bigger otherwise our moms would not give birth to us. But what we can do is we can do the same thing our phones do and send our desires, our interests to the cloud, have it processed and get the answer back. And so that is one future for brain-computer interface. Another future is we take our essence and upload it to the cloud. I don't know when. What problem does that solve for you though?


Technological Innovations And Their Impact

Problem with brain computer interface (44:57)

Well, it gives you scale and pace because our brains are limited here and our memories are limited here without any augmentation. And this has been happening actually for about 40 or 50 years. If you look at the internet, the first thing we did was we put the world's data on the internet. It's now the memory of the world. Now with all the sensors, the internet has become the nervous system for the world. So we're basically extending the organism outside the human species into this thing called the internet. As we add more processing and move our brains to it, now you all have an AI and a codely new speciation type of thing. Now you can get worried about that or afraid of that or freaked out about it or you can say natural process has been going on for billions of years. This is just another step in that process. And you guys, it's interesting. This really hits you guys differently than it hits me. Okay, so talk to me. I don't intuitively agree about the internet becoming our nervous system. Help me understand that. So when you need to remember something, you don't want a memory. You want information stored somewhere that you can retrieve. And now with all those servers that we have around the world, we have access Wikipedia, for example, we have access to the world. The next step, if you want to, if I step on a nail, a memory doesn't help me. I need a nervous system to say, "Lift foot, scream, run for a band-aid." So the instant response and the agility of response, you need a nervous system for it.


Internet the new nervous system (46:17)

This is Uber calling your Uber as part of the nervous system, right? This is sending an email or making a phone call and asking information. Or an XPRISE team sensing a wildfire and going, "Quick, put it out right away." So this is... That feels super accurate. So real time sensing, and our bodies operate like this. Our bodies have receptors and they're scanning for things. When the right thing comes, why do they pick it up? There's a whole bunch of information theory around this. You see this happening at the individual level or at the societal level? It's a systemic thing. It's a wildfire thing that feels... Let me give you a vein. A systemic thing. We're heading towards a world of a trillion sensors, right? Your phone has dozens of sensors on it right now.


Systemic computation (46:56)

An autonomous Weamo, Google's autonomous car, driving down the road, has got LiDAR and radar and cameras and it's picking up gigabits of data as it goes down the road. Everything is being imaged, right? So I want you to imagine you're a fashion designer and you want to decide what your next fashion show should have and what is trending. You could go and ask your AI, listen, look at the cameras on Madison Avenue and tell me what's trending in terms of fashion right now as people are walking down the street. What colors, what's hem length, what hats, what whatever. And now can you correlate that to any kind of ad campaign that's occurred in the last few months to see a signal to noise ratio? Again, we're heading towards a world where you can know anything you want, anytime you want, anywhere you want. How does that hit you?


Borderless entertainment (47:51)

It, that one gets me excited. So when I think about, so I think about it from a game developers standpoint, which is maybe different. I don't know how this plays into what you guys are thinking about, but here's the fantasy that I live in that the only thing that keeps me awake and that is how quickly someone else is going to do something even cooler. But right now I feel like I have the coolest take on this, which is that I'm sure you guys saw Google and Adobe announced core AR where basically everything that Google has mapped, which is everything but the ocean floor, you can now overlay AR 3D assets on that anywhere and it's only going to get better insane. And so my whole thesis on gaming is that it becomes this thing I call borderless entertainment where you'll hand the game back and forth from the console to reality and back. And so, you know, once we've got our Apple AR glasses, I mean, it just will be. By the way, coming soon. Oh, for sure, for sure. Like in the next six months or something. No, no, June 5th. Oh, it's announced. It's announced. No, no. Have they actually said it's the glasses out or do they have a big announcement? No, no, no, no. I have a party I'm going to go and grab them and try them. You want to join me? Yes. What? Okay. 100%. I want to join you. I'm hosting. I'm going to duct tape myself to your shin to make sure that you can't leave me behind. You are invited. Wow. Luckily, as two shins. The other one will leave for you. Oh, no. Yeah, please. I'll give you some duct tape. That's insane. So, this is, yeah, this gets very exciting. So, the idea of being able to scan everything, read that data is incredibly interesting. When it's humans in control and leveraging it to do something amazing, I love it the most.


AI and phases (49:33)

And the way that I see AI, the way that I sort of jokingly explain it, but I'm only half kidding, is that phase one is that there's going to be humans that learn how to use AI are going to just absolutely smash humans that rebel against it and don't use it. And so, I'm certainly trying to be in that camp. Phase two is going to be what I'll call the temporary utopia where it's like, "Hey, abundance. Everything's amazing." And then phase three is we're all dead. And we're either all dead because something just goes absolutely horribly wrong and you get the adversarial system loses once and the catastrophic thing is so massive or that we're just evolved out of the picture. And maybe not in a bad way. Maybe it's wonderful and we merge with technology or whatever. It's interesting. I can very easily put on an optimistic hat, but I have to take off my pessimistic hat to do it. Yeah.


9 Levels of Simulation (50:31)

Listen, here, first of all, let's take this back to the end. Let's take this back to reality. We're living in a game. This is a nth generation simulation. Do you really believe that? I really believe that. Funnomically. Me too. Just the math says. Just the reality. I like your framing. You're like, "The world is too goddamn interesting for this not to be a solution." We're at the 99th level of the game right now. And the ability, what I've seen, so I introduce you to Imad Mustak and what he's doing at Instability and being able to render, getting to a point very soon of rendering photo realistic video experiences that you can go into and live in. And the experiments have been done by Google and Stanford on creating AI bots and instantiating them with a script and a story and letting them live. And have you heard about this? Not all of it. Where they basically created a bunch of AI bots and they put it into a call it a digital box. And they started doing birthday parties or something. They started dating and going on getting jobs and mimicking the things that we do in life right now. So this is the equivalent of Pong in the early days. So imagine combining these things in the future and you're going to put AIs that have full capabilities into virtual worlds and they'll start evolving, farming, and then metallurgy and then they'll start printing books and then they'll start making computers and then they'll evolve AI in their own and they'll start involving their own bots inside. So the question is, is this the first time? And I think not. We're in a universe of call it for rough numbers, 14 billion years.


Storytelling And Cultural Hacking

Drake equation (52:22)

Man oh man. The Drake equation comes into play. Tell me more. Well the Frank Drake was a scientist at NASA in the 50s. NASA commissioned him to say what's the probability of life out there somewhere. So he came up with what's not called the Drake equation, which was okay. Take most two thirds of sister system seem to be binary stars. Don't host a stable orbit. So ignore those. Of the one third that's left, how many might have a planet in a Goldilocks where water doesn't permanently freeze a boil? Let's say that's one out of a million. Out of those maybe one out of a billion gets to a primordial ooze level and one out of a million of those lightning bolt hits and you spark life. One out of a million of those may get to radio technology level, radio level technology and one out of a million of those hasn't wiped itself out with nuclear weapons before it gets to the next stage of escaping the earth type of thing. Critical thing. We came up with a bunch of factors saying if you had what's likely to have similar carbon based radio technology life forms out of the universe. So that's one of our over like billions and billions on the dominator. However, when you multiply by the number of stars out there and by the number of galaxies out there, the pessimistic answer is there's 100% chance of radio level carbon based technology life forms out of the universe. The optimistic one is it's actually right in our galaxy. And every time we learn more about the universe, how many stars there are, etc. Turns out there's 100 times more stars that have stable planets around them than we thought. We're destroying planets everywhere. Every factor turns out to be a thousand times better than we thought. And therefore you really end up with a Fermi paradox of if there's intelligent life out there, why haven't we seen it? Yeah. So the interesting. The interesting code, interesting variable on the Drake equation was between the time that a intelligent species developed the ability to transmit interstellar, which is like I love Lucy leaving the earth and heading out towards the galaxy, how long would that species exist before something happened to it? The dystopian point of view is that it blows itself up and it's only like 100 years or 50 years. Great. The positive point of view is that they transition to where radio is not, it's like we don't use smoke signals anymore because radio is so backwards. The theory I like the most is called the Transention Hypothesis by a guy called John Smart who figures we'll get the AR level capability and VR level capability. And instead of going out in the universe, we go inwards. 100%. And that's, I think that's probably like the. This strikes me as, and look, AI complicates things dramatically and so folding space time becomes trivial. Maybe what I'm about to say isn't true, but it seems self-evident to me that once you can attach the nervous system truly, like your own nervous system and you can manipulate your neurochemistry that you would create dream states. Imminent world. Yeah. That you just go inward. Why would you bother projecting out, which would take so much more energy. That's right. And you have these incredible experiences that strikes me as a generational question of purpose now. So because that's, I link it back to that. And I think purpose is so important for all of us to have. It's driven everything of significance done. But let's say that we end up in a world in which, and one of the implications of exponential organizations are that we have what we call, we're a friend Harry Chlor called technological socialism, where technology takes care of you well versus the state. And in that world where you're taking care of what's your purpose, maybe your purpose is to have fun, maybe your purpose is to play, maybe your purpose is to, and this we go back to the Matrix again, because without the challenge, the question is, is that empty, you know, the old Twilight Zone, where the guy goes to Las Vegas and he's winning all the time. I know of the Twilight Zone, but I haven't seen the episodes. So in this episode, this guy dies and he's been a mafioso and he goes to Heaven or Hell. And he shows up and they're beautiful women every place. He's in Las Vegas, Casino, and he's winning every night, and he's winning, and he's winning, and he's winning, and he's winning, and he's with all the riches, anything he wants 24/7. And it's like amazing, right? His dreams coming true. But like a month later, he's like, I am so tired of winning all the time. God, there's nothing challenging. There's nothing, no challenges at all. And he turns and he says, this Heaven, man, it's terrible. He goes, what makes you think you're in Heaven? So good. I knew that was a punchline and you still gave me the chills. That is a real thing, man. And I do think about that, the sort of optimal, like what's that optimal level of friction?


Japanese storytelling (57:27)

And there was a really fascinating time in my life in building impact theory where I needed to get good at Japanese style storytelling. So manga and anime. And I was reading manga like a fiend and watching as much anime as I could. I was getting up super early and working out and then watching like an hour, hour and a half of anime. It was awesome. It's one of the most fun times I've had as an adult. The second I felt like I understood the art form, I couldn't let myself do anymore. Like I couldn't enjoy it. I was just like, you already understand it. Now you're just doing it to like past time doing something that's enjoyable. And it had that same feeling of like winning all the time where I'm like, this isn't interesting. It needed to be moving towards something. And needed to add up to something in this. Even like progress. Yeah. Like this is the very reason that Lisa and I did not buy an island in retire and not engage. It's like, I knew I would end up sitting on a few other reasons not to buy an island, by the way, I bet you can. I mean, look, life is about growth, right? And the info you have plentiful and today relatively we have plentiful go back a thousand years, we were all spending 20 hours a day in the fields just to put three meals on the table. Right. We've steadily shrunk the amount of time as we move towards probably some structure like a UBI. We then have an equal opportunity to do lots of interesting things. When we've studied abundance, say the Romans taking over and creating the Roman Empire, the moguls taking over India and encountering abundance society very clearly goes to four things that they do. Food, art, music and sex, not in that order. And so that's essentially where you will end up and you end up looking at self expression and the artistic realm much more than you did before, whether in whatever realm you choose. And so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And by the way, we've done this for thousands of years, right? But this sit in contemplation, they reach enlightenment and they, their life is spent contemplating and that's where they get the most joy. And this is something that I think we'll get to as a species. I'd like to bring it back to the following. One of the things, one of the reasons we wrote this book is to help entrepreneurs and businesses understand that they can make a much bigger dent in the universe than ever before. And while it's not about making money, it's about how do you build a significant company that is transforming the planet and is making the world a better place? And what we're finding is that there are a number of ways that companies do this reliably with the biggest dent and so we want to get that information out there. And the reality is if you're building a company today, you need to start with this as your playbook in order to succeed because it's table stakes. And if you're running a large scale company, if you don't use these attributes, if you're not using these, you are not going to survive the rest of this decade. What I say is there are two kinds of companies by the end of this decade. Those that are full utilizing AI and these exponential technologies and those that are out of business. That's it. It's this decade where all of this is happening. And so we talk about the first step in building an EXO is having a massive transformative purpose. And it's going to be that passion driven need to make a difference in the world that's going to carry you through. Doing anything big and bold in the world is hard. Unless you're driven by awe on one side of the emotional curve or pain on the other side of the emotional curve, you're going to give up before you get there. No doubt. Yeah. When I'm teaching entrepreneurs, I always tell them that success is a game of attrition. Most people give up and you've got to stick it out long enough to figure this out. So that would be the old paradigm. Is that, sorry, go ahead. I was going to say, you know, in looking at what you're doing and what you've been building in impact theory, you do use a lot of the 10 attributes that follow an MTP. It'll be fun to actually see which ones you're cranking on. Yeah. No, MTP is definitely our lead engine. We know what we're doing and we know why we're doing it. And that's a big part of the way that we attract talent, which you guys have talked a lot about, but tying it to this idea of Buddhism. So there obviously all of us get to make a choice every day effectively as to whether we recognize that all of suffering comes from attachment and desire and thusly, we go live a monastic life and we remove ourselves completely from that stream or we say, I'm going to do deep engagement in a way that's thoughtful in a way where I'm not sort of blindly chasing something. It's not want. It's not greed, but it is very much leveraging the human desire for progress. We talked about that earlier to see how much I can do with my life. That's something that really drives me is I just want to see. I feel like I was given sort of an average hand at cards. I want to see how well I can play it. And that's extremely intoxicating for me is just like, whoa.


How to make a dent in the universe (01:02:42)

But that's just as powerful, right? If you're, let's say you're in a month, there's two ways of doing it. You can go and meditate forever or you can go into the world and be of service. And that's as a richer path, a harder, much harder path because you've got to do stuff and interact with the world, which is messy and ugly and you put yourself at risk and put stuff out there. But when you can make a major difference in a particular problem, like you are doing, like you're doing many of our communities are making unbelievable changes in transformation in their societies, their companies, their governments, their countries, this is where the beauty of life comes at. And we think that over the next decade or so, every company, every nonprofit, every government department, every impact project will be structured along these lines of these attributes because it's just better. And we now have the data to show it. I don't know if you came across the Fortune 100 data that we mentioned. I mean, unbelievable, right? Over a summer. Yeah. So when we wrote the original book, I did a segment on CNBC's Squawk Box and we ranked the Fortune 100 against the EXO model. So we engaged to what extent is Walmart, purpose driven or not? To what extent is IBM using lean startup thinking and experimentation? To what extent is GE decentralizing the decision maker or not? And we came up with an index, ranking these organizations by this model, essentially ranking the purpose driven scalable, flexible, adaptable quotient of each of these. And the bottom was the least flexible, least adaptable. Over seven years, we tracked which 10 used those attributes the most and which used them the least. And then we compared the two. And seven years is a pretty decent long amount of time to account for temporal blips in the stock market, et cetera. We found that the top 10 most EXO friendly compared to the bottom 10 revenue growth was three times higher. Profitability was 6.4 times higher. Return on equity was 11 times higher, but shareholder returns, compound annual growth rate was 40 times higher. And literally we had to scour the numbers like four times over because it's just too big. How could this be? And so now it's pretty clear that as we enter a more volatile world, your ability to adapt is going to drive market value. And we can measure this now completely.


Adactation creates opportunity (01:04:54)

Therefore every organization going forward needs to be architected along this way to deal with the increase in volatility in the world. And the other side of that volatility and disruption is the unbelievable opportunity that's sitting out there. Right. And this is where I think the work that you're doing Peter is so important because you're nonstop showing people the world is unbelievably abundantly full of opportunity. Freaking go get it. Go have some fun. So walk me through why is adaptation return so much more to shareholders and what does one have to do to be adaptive? Okay. So let's take the car industry. Right. You're chunking along making combustion engine cars and you're incrementally improving those cars. Eight valves to 16 valves. Okay. You add turbo, you add anti lock braking systems, et cetera, et cetera. Along comes Elon with the Tesla and goes totally different paradigm. Right. Now you have two choices right there. You go, ah, this is a joke. It's never going to work. Look at it. It's like the Kodak camera. The first version is clunky and doesn't work so well, et cetera. And you keep trying to do things your old way. Over time you're going to get wiped out because you're not adapting to where the world actually is. Right. There's so many hundreds of reasons why an electric car today is much better than a combustion engine car. Now it's taking the car industry 10 years. I would argue that until the Taycan came out last year that the 20, the Porsche Taycan, the Porsche Taycan, the Porsche electric car, I would argue that the 2012 Tesla Model S was still the most advanced car in the world until the Taycan. Right. So 10 years it took them to respond. Well, the market cap, you can see the result there, the unbelievable loss of capability, leading edge thinking, et cetera. And you have the same thing happening in drones and in aircraft and other things. All industries are geared towards the status quo and trying to make incremental. And this is where you devolve to. Meanwhile you have breakthrough thinking, breakthrough opportunity. And the recent explosion and AI capability just has a rocket booster to all of that. So now we're going to see new companies emerge that are creating unbelievable value in very, very little time. And if you're a legacy organization, you have to figure this out. And we've actually figured out a tool set for this. We find that we've come up with a 10 week engagement that we've run in big companies that hacks culture at scale. And we're able to solve what we call the immune system problem.


Hacking culture at scale (01:07:26)

So when you try anything disruptive in a big company, the antibodies attack you. Finance, legal, HR branding goes, you can't do that. The general answer in a big company, if you're trying to do anything crazy is no. And we've learned how to switch that to a yes. And we've done now six. Don't just gloss pass it. Because even so a company of my size, which contractors, et cetera, et cetera, is a little over a hundred people. And there are times where I want to headbutt my own teammates. Yes. And the worst thing we have is if you're over about 50 people, you have an immune system. I've had that at the X prize. I've had that every place, right? Because you're a quick start. You want to try things. And one of the things that's critical that a lot of companies that are built as EXOs have, they begin with an experimental culture and a data-driven culture with dashboards. And the tyranny of confidence isn't given a place to grow. The tyranny of confidence. What do you mean? So confidence is where I'm confident I know the right answer versus let's run the experiment and see what the right answer is. Right? Because we've lived in this as humanity. You hire the expert. You hire the guy who's or gal who's been in a competitor. You bring them in and you base what you're doing on their experience level. But that is so limited compared to the world we're living in today. So how do you build a data-driven, experimentalist organization? I had one other feature on top of that which is a founder-led company. So you get companies like Tesla and SpaceX or Amazon where Jeff Bezos and his very famous shareholder letter of like 2008, whatever it was, says, "I'm not going to optimize for profitability. I'm optimizing for growth. And if you don't like it, invest someplace else." Right? How do you have that kind of benevolent dictatorship that's where you then looking at the data to decide not the way all your competitors are doing it? I have an obsession as an entrepreneur which is as a human but this really manifests as an entrepreneur. People need to stop trusting themselves so much. Yes. People are so convinced that they know that they're-- That they don't even recognize that they have a worldview. And if they do recognize that they have a worldview, they are utterly convinced that it is simply a reflection of what is objectively true. And so they're like, "No, the way that I see things is the right way." And I'm like, "Oh my God." Like, "Is that your view?" Yeah, exactly.


Cognitive Bias (01:10:02)

Confirmation bias. That's my view and it's right Peter. I mean, one of the big things that AI is going to give us as a gift is the ability to overcome all of these biases we have. All these cognitive biases, recency bias, negativity bias, confirmation bias, recency bias. All of these things which our brain is really sucks at processing and so we have all these hacks. You trust someone who looks like you. You give higher weight to the most recent information you've got. You give higher weight to negative information over positive information. And there's going to be a version where you go to Jarvis, your AI, and you say, "I want to put cognitive bias alert on. Tell me if I'm being biased." You know, when we were building Singularity University, I was the founding executive director there. A few years in, I had written the book and I was off and Peter asked me to come to a board meeting and say, "What should I ask you to look like in five years or ten years?" And I made a comment and I said, "You know you should shut it down because you build an organization and over time you spend more time trying to sustain the organization than trying to solve the problem that you set out to solve in the first place." And at DARPA as the big organization they do, every role even the CEO is three years long. And then you have to rotate out. You're not allowed to hold any role for more than three years. And then you're measured. You're worried about the easy things. Stale? Stale and therefore they keep things fresh and your legacy is what did you do three year patterns ago and was a good or not. So now you're always focused on the long term. You take out all the politics, etc. And I think in today's world if I had to kind of boil it down, I would say you build a company and after three to five years you just go, "We're going to shut it down after the fruit and force us to reinvent our fruit." Or reinvent the company. If your mission is achieving excellence, you must support your body. Introducing AG1. This powerhouse blend is packed with 75 premium vitamins, minerals and whole food sourced ingredients that elevate your immune system, uplift your mood and promote restful sleep. And Athletic Greens is offering our listeners a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. Don't miss this opportunity to optimize your health and truly be legendary.


Organizational Reinvention And Mindset Shifts

A Perfect Opportunity to Reinvent (01:12:25)

When the XPRIZE got one and we had Spaceship One fly, we held a meeting and said, "We shut it down." Or do we reinvent ourselves into a platform? Yeah. And we did. And now we're getting ready to launch XPRIZE 3.0, which happened during COVID. I said, "Pull the board together." I said, "This is a perfect opportunity for us to reinvent ourselves." And so I need to brief you on it, but we've reinvented XPRIZE and I'm excited about that. And so there is, you need to be constantly disrupting yourself. And it's tough because we're lazy in some ways. Yeah. You tell a story in the book about Elon walking in, seeing him all long faced and saying, "What's wrong? Walk me through that moment." So I was amazed. So I've known Elon for 23 years now. And when Falcon One, which was their first vehicle, failed on the first time, the second time, the third time, and it succeeded on the fourth time, they miraculously, and timing is everything, got a contract for the Falcon 9, which was a billion dollar contract. And had they not won that, they may not be here today, but they did. And Elon made an incredible decision that took guts. He shut down the rocket line that just began flying. And there were very few successful operations. He said, "Focus on Falcon 9. Falcon 9 is our future." And so that went on for some number of years. And I was coming into SpaceX and Hawthorne to have lunch with him. And he was kind of, like I said, long faced. And I'm like, "What's up?" And he goes, "I just figured out, Falcon 9 had been up and operating and doing damn well.


A Mindset on Focus (01:14:09)

It's the most successful launch vehicle on the planet by a huge margin, right? It's like very few-- no countries compete with him. He's like the number one spacefaring power. And I said, "What's wrong?" And he goes, "I just figured out the Falcon 9 is not going to get us where we need to go, meaning to Mars." He's driven by this MTP, this massive transformative purpose, making manual planetary, getting humanity to Mars. And I need to start afresh. And so that has become Starship. And then he goes on to make a comment that when Starship begins successfully operating, he's going to shut down the Falcon 9 line. Which again, it's like, I don't know what the analogy is, but it's like you're the most successful at the top of the heap and you're about to shut down that entire revenue flow. Now whether or not he does or does not, that was the statement he made. But it's that mindset of focus, of absolute focus. I'm going to do whatever-- Dedication to the big goal. Yeah. Okay. So as somebody who knows this intimately from the inside of the need to disrupt yourself or somebody else is going to do it, the willingness to look at something and go, "Okay, we're going to have to start this all over." How do you get your organization on board with that?


Getting Rice in Line (01:15:21)

Because the normal human is going to rebel against that massively. Yes, you don't. So the only model we found that works at all is to go to the edge of your organization and build a new capability aiming into an adjacent area or a totally separate area. So I remember one of the events in the Lurry page came to me and said, "Hey, I was the head of innovation at Yahoo before building on Singularity." And he came to me and said, "Hey, you're a unit at Yahoo's successful. I do an incubator model at Google." And I said, "No, you'll have this immune system response. The more disruptive an idea we came up with in this incubator, the less Yahoo could handle it." And you're like, "My job description is not workable." And so part of the result that lots of other inputs was Google X, which is separate going into it. They use hardware to go into adjacent spaces, Google car, Google X, contact lenses, et cetera. The master of this model of going to the edge and doing something different is actually Apple. And yes, they have a great design capability in a technology supply chain. I argue that Apple's real innovation is organizational because what they do unlike anybody else is they will form a small team that's really disruptive, put the team at the edge of the company, keep them secret and stealth, and they'll say to them, "Go disrupt another industry," whether it's watches or retail or payments or glasses or whatever now. So they have a portfolio of teams looking at different industries at the edge in secret. And when they see something, they go into it and that becomes a new gravity center. And there's hundreds of examples of this Nestle for years tried to run Nespresso's line of business and it just failed. Finally, they set up as a separate entity on its own, boom, every hotel room in the world has a Nespresso machine. And so that's the only model that we've ever seen. There is one more, which is the dictator. It is the larger than life leader who says, "This is what we're doing." If you don't agree with me, leave. Do we have a good example? Well, Elon and Bezos as well, Steve Jobs for sure. It's the founder leader. It's very hard to do it in an older legacy company that's hired a CEO. But it's people when you have a strong enough MTP and the visionary has a strong enough MTP and they come to work for you when they come to work for this vision, then they will have faith in you to make those right turns. Going back to mindset, how does somebody cultivate that in themselves?


Cultivating mindset: curiosity and abundance (01:17:41)

If you want to become that guy or gal, what do you do? What is it that an Elon has or a Steve Jobs has that other people can replicate? We close out the book with mindset and it's the area I'm spending most of my time and I'll phrase it like this for everybody listening. If you look at the most extraordinary leaders on the planet, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, I don't care who's on your list and you asked what made them successful? Was it the cash they had, the friends they had, the technology they had or was it their mindset? Right? Almost everybody would say it was their mindset. Your mindset is how you deal with challenges and opportunities. It's your reaction. It's how your neural net is wired. The question is if your mindset, if you agree that mindset is the most important thing a leader can have, an entrepreneur can have, what mindset do you have, first and foremost? Where did you get it? Then ask yourself the question, mindset do you need for the world ahead? I posit there's a few key mindsets and these are what I teach in my abundance community. First off, a curiosity mindset is fundamental. I know you believe this through and through. Aggressively, can you go into a little detail on that? When you say curious, what do you mean? Curious is a willingness to actually dig and ask and have conversations in the chat GPT world, it's everything. It's like how do I use chat GPT, open it up and ask it and then ask the next question, the next question, the next question. When you have a kid who is asking you, it's go to your eight, nine, ten year old self in that and just be openly curious and asking as many questions as you can and going down the rabbit hole. Steve Wozni calls it tinkering. We're in the organization and can you just tinker and play? What stops people from tinkering or being curious? Time constraint. Or really targets? Yeah. Doing stuff that they were told is important, not having the time. I think falling into ruts. A curiosity mindset, especially if you're an entrepreneur, is one of the most important things that you can incubate and have. The second mindset for me is an abundance mindset. The abundance mindset is there is nothing truly scarce. We can talk about this also as first principle thinking. This is one where Elon and I have had lots of conversations about abundance and that there is nothing truly scarce. That your ability as an entrepreneur to take something that was scarce and make it abundant is what entrepreneurs do great. The perfect example is energy. We used to kill whales on the ocean to get whale oil to light our nights. Then we ravaged mountainsides for coal. Then we drilled kilometers under the ocean. We fracked natural gas. We live on a planet that's bathed 8,000 times more energy from the sun than we consume as a species. Here's the key point. The energy is there just not in a useful form yet. Technology takes whatever was scarce and makes it usable. Water is another example. We live on a water planet for about 6, 2/3 water. But 97.5% is salt, 2% is ice, we fight over a half a percent. But there are technologies transforming scarcity into abundance. First principle thinking, I wrote about this in future as fast as you think, when Elon decided to make Tesla, he basically looked at what was the spot price of lithium and nickel and could you get the cost of batteries down from first principle thinking? The answer is yes, we can get it there and therefore the cars don't have to be that expensive. That led him to go forward. Long story there. That's abundance thinking that instead of, if you have a pie, my favorite example is if a pie and friends are coming over for dinner, instead of slicing the pie into thinner and thinner slices, which is a scarcity mindset, you bake more pies, which is an abundance mindset. So living in a world where you can bake more pies, everything can be abundant. My whole mission on extending the health lifespan is about making time more abundant for people. Probably going to take pies out of that equation. Yeah, if you're going to get a little bit of an unfortunate idea. Anyway, an exponential mindset, a moonshot mindset, a purpose-driven mindset, and a gratitude mindset, other mindsets I speak to. We could talk forever about those. But there are mindsets that are important for us in this day and age.


Observer effect & the power of +1 (01:22:39)

Yeah, I want to go back to curiosity. So when I think about what derails my team, I love them to death, but one thing that I've encountered over and over is when people's ego gets tied up in being right and they're not just obsessed with finding the right answer, it's because I think they have not yet accurately identified the way the world works, which is that if you are obsessed with being right, you will be wrong most of the time. If you're obsessed with identifying the right answer, then you can actually make progress. And so this was certainly the trap that I fell prey to in my early 20s that is like a demarcation line in the sand. My life before I realized that if I built my ego around being willing to stare nakedly at my inadequacies and figure out what the right answer is instead of trying to position myself to look smart, that I could actually move forward. And that switches everything because there's not only no emotional friction to admitting that you're wrong, there's like a little twinge of excitement of like, Oh, I've gotten this far being wrong. And now somebody's going to remove the scales from my eyes. Now I really can make this forward momentum. But man, I really like I, for all the time that I spend on camera telling people how to think in this way, I find it very hard to get somebody who isn't ready for that to like hear it, make that switch and change. Do you guys have the magic words? I love the hearing. So actually this is music to our own sense because organizationally individuals are pretty good. We have a lot of toolsets for transforming individual thinking Tony Robbins, NLP psychedelics nowadays, et cetera, to change your own mindset. But the group thing that comes inside an organization is really hard to change. And we've what we found in EXOs, the characteristics that add up to an exponential organization, by default, have it be embracing with his mindset. So one of the ways we talk about what we've done in the same way that a Tony Robbins, you go in there and you completely change your subconscious state from A to B, right? From a scarcity to an abundance mindset, whatever, we're able to do that at the organizational level. So we're making an organization that is all thinking, stuck in particular markets, et cetera. And you open it up using a combination of these characteristics, the mindset, the MTP, et cetera. So we learn how to do, introduce the ideas, but how do you get them to actually? Let me give you the hack. I learned this from Astro teller. I had him on stage at 8 through 60 a few times and he shared with something that I love. You're in the midst of developing a product. Everybody's absolutely sure of what's going on and how you're going to launch it, how it's going to work. And you hand out a piece of paper to everybody and you say, listen guys, it's six months from now and the product has just failed. And you know why it's failed. Write it down. You know exactly why it's failed. Write it down right now. And you are incentivizing someone to actually flip their situation and look at the flaws and elevate those. And then you go around the room and review why people say it's going to fail. And if you've got two or three people saying the same thing, you know, it's maybe you've got to look at that. Test that one first. Yeah. The other one we've come across that's a great hack as Amazon. They created something called the institutional. Yes. Have you ever heard of this? No. So they realized in any big company, it's really easy to say no. One of 20 people can say no, it'll kill the idea. Whereas if you're in a startup and you go to one investor and they say, yes, you're after the racist side, you deal with that impedance mismatch. So they came up with a policy so that if you're inside Amazon, you come to me with an idea and I'm your boss. I'm not allowed to say no. My default answer must be yes. If I want to say no, I have to write a two page thesis as to why it's a bad idea. Oh, this is brilliant. Right. So they've created friction and embarrassment to saying no, it's much easier for me to go up. Go ahead. You'll fail at the next level anyway. Da, da, da, da, da. And out of actually one of the outcomes of this policy was Amazon Web Services. Nothing to do with their strategy, not on the roadmap, but nobody could figure out it and say no to it. And now it's one of the most successful products of all time delivering, I think, 75% of their global profits. Wow. Because nobody could figure out how to say no to it. So we found a collection of little hacks and cultural transformations and companies that allow you to basically operate in this new modality being very curious, purpose-driven, constantly testing assumptions using small agile teams operating at the edges as autonomously as possible and then getting the business of the organization done. Wow. I love that so much.


Compete vs Buy (01:27:21)

I've taken a lot from Bezos over the years. He's got some really amazing ideas. I do have to chuckle a little bit that this business genius still got taken down by dick picks. But just the human mind is absolutely hilarious. You're all frail. But yeah, no, no, look, I don't even throw shade at the guy I get at Live Your Best Life, but that's really brilliant and I will implement that immediately. Yeah. You've had the luxury of watching hundreds of big companies deal in different ways, right? And it used to be the big companies were terrible at this. And then about five or seven years ago, they got started getting better. So instead of a Google or Yahoo or somebody saying, we're just going to compete with that little startup, they would just buy them. Zuckerberg saw that he was going to get disrupted by Instagram and WhatsApp, etc, bought them instead. And in general, you should leave them alone. Over time, the corporation can't handle it gets its grubby fingers messed and then they tend to typically kill it. But we're starting to learn now, if you look at, say, Google with LLMs, they're actually too scared to release them. And Amazon just went, let's just go for it.


Growth And Success In Openai Applications

OpenAI Gpt-3 BART (01:28:31)

Boom. Open eye. Oh, sorry. Microsoft. Oh, it's like, wait, Amazon? Microsoft just went to the bar. What do you guys think about Bard? How's it been? Very impressive. I haven't touched it. We've been playing with it. It's very impressive. It's early days yet. I'm finding fun doing stuff on OpenAI and at Bard at the same time and comparing them. And there are a few places where OpenAI failed and Bard succeeded in vice versa. So they're both useful. And what I'd like to mention if I could, just because I want to go back to the thesis on the book, again, our mission is to give people who are running large-scale companies who want to survive the next 10 years a series of, this is what you should do if you want to reorganize your company. And if you're a startup, this is what you should do to be able to thrive in this decade. Because the world has changed. I mean, fundamentally, how you start a company today and how you succeed today is very different than 30 years ago. It's very different than six months ago. Well, true. That's crazy. That scares me. So we've really just lived through the most disruptive six months. Nothing has ever more instantaneously impacted my business model the way that I approach my employees ever than the release of AI. Of COVID. Yeah. No, honestly, that did not impact my business nearly. It did like the day to day as you're not seeing people, but the fundamental way that we ran our business. Yeah. I do it. I mean, we're in a world right now where every doctor in the world is freaked out if they see this and every lawyer in the world is freaked out of every teacher in the world. I love the fact that OpenAI chat GPT passed the US medical licensing exam two months after it was launched, right? And the bar exam. Crazy. Yeah. It passed the Turing test.


OpenAi Chat Gpt Success (01:30:22)

That was the one I didn't see coming, the signing of the Hey, Let's Slow Down letter. And so I had Yashua Benjio on the show. He's considered the godfather of AI. And I said, Hey, your name was on that. What made you sign it? And he said, in no uncertain terms, I did not expect it to pass the Turing test as fast as it did. That set off every alarm bell that I have and like pumped the brakes. This is the thing that we find most interesting because we've known emod and all these guys for a while. They are blown away by the success of these models. Yeah. And it's really fascinating that the folks themselves are just blown away. And it's still early days. Yeah, that's the same. Ladies and gentlemen, it's still early days. We're going to see so much more coming and the recursive nature of self improving capabilities. I showed this work done where a group of physicians were showing these case studies at the diagnosis of patient. And it was like they took 55 minutes and got 60% right. And the AI took like 12 minutes and got 85% right. And the physicians are going to change next year, but the AI will get much better and will be seconds and 100% right. Bro.


Fountain Life Your Vision (01:31:32)

Yeah. Yeah. This is where this gets really interesting. So I know you have another company found in life that you guys are using AI. Are you open to talking about this? Yeah, sure. So longevity, I couldn't be more obsessed with the idea. And so as you were talking about it, my first question is. How are you guys going to start getting the patterns down? Because to me, this is the big thing. You talk to somebody like Peter, it's like, look, it is just next to impossible to do really good studies on diet and nutrition, what works, what doesn't work is just too many confounding variables. And I was like, AI is going to answer that like it can pull a pattern, anything that can be reduced to a pattern, they can figure it out. Regardless of like amount of variables, if there is a pattern to be had, it will suss it out and given that we have some people that live 220 and some that don't, there is a pattern. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll put it this way. You, there's a lot of interesting things. Not only are there some people who live 220 and some people who make it to just 65, there are large species on this planet, like the O'Boeh head whale that lives at 200 years or the Greenland shark that lives to 500 years. And my question is if they could live that long, why can't we? And I said, it's either a hardware problem or a software problem. All right. And we're going to understand that this decade is the decade we're going to understand that. This is going to be AI and quantum technologies that give us that insight. So Fountain Life, it just Fountain Life dot com. We have these 10,000 square foot facilities. We have four of them right now. We have a waiting list of like 50 that we'll build out globally. And you come and we digitize you. It's a full body, 150 gigabyte upload of you. Full body MRI, brain, brain vasculature, brain function, coronary CT, all of this with AI overlay, 80 blood biomarkers, genomics, metabolomics, you know, your gut. And then we do this year on year. This is not a one and done, right? So in the first time you do it, we're going to see is there anything going on that you should worry about? Most of us are optimists about our health. We don't actually know what's going on inside our body. And by the way, the body's really amazing at hiding disease. Yeah. I'm going to put myself back. It's like you think you're fine, but 70% of all heart attacks have no precedent. Dude, that one freaks me out that the first symptom of heart disease in most men is death. Yeah, crazy, right? And 70% of cancers that kill you are not screened for. So it's this shit that drives me nuts. And so it's like an idiot not to be looking inside your body. And we used to not look because, well, if I find out, can I do anything? The answer is yes. You can. So you want to know. And so we screen people first and then every year upload you every year. And it's looking for the patterns and what medicines. And we have a large corpus of data and the AI ability to analyze that to say with your genome, with your microbiome, with these meds with this is going to be huge. Learning is out of this. Right. And I'm going to build fountain life into an exponential organization. So I'm building around this book that we built. And every company I'm involved with is like we need to use these 10 attributes in the book. Otherwise, we're not going to be able to have the impact globally that we want. What are you going to tell the AI to look for? So right now, you don't have to tell it to look for anything. You have to ask it to find any kind of anomalous patterns. You're looking for it.


Living Longer (01:35:20)

It's data over time. So you're looking for changes. Tell me what's changed. Tell me what's changing. And tell me, so I'll give you one of the examples. We're building, this is a fun part about fountain life. We're building a brand new health insurance company on top of it. So if you get fountain life insurance, which is available today, your employees, insurance is a perverse business. Fire insurance pays you after your house burns down. Life insurance pays you next to kin after they're dead. Health insurance pays you after you're sick. What we've done instead is when you sign up, your employees go through a set of pre-testing for us to discover any kind of disease and prevent it from a big payout later down the stream. So it's keeping your employees healthy. And what we want to do-- Wait, wait, how does that model work though? So is the employee paying roughly what they would pay more? They're paying exactly the same or less. The numbers are the same. And the insurance company is actually saying, we're going to do preventative-- We're doing preventative testing. Yes, preventative testing. And so here's what we're doing. The interesting thing is there's a number of expensive tests we can do and a number of cheap tests we can do. And one of the things we're doing with AI is correlating which of these lower-end tests correlate highly to the expensive tests. So you'll do the lower-end cost test to find a signal in the noise and then you'll verify with the expensive test. Okay, this is very interesting. Walk me through what your fantasy data would be. My fantasy data would be to track what everyone eats, the state of their microbiome, and when they die. And what else would I want? Maybe their blood glucose levels. I want functional data, state of my cognitive health, my muscular health, my skin health, my immune system. When are you going to start? We're going to be tied to something you do otherwise it's not going to be actionable. It's going to be correlated to my age and my activities and the meds and the supplements and my daily living. And so for example right now I'm on a tear to add 10 pounds of muscle. So I'm doing a heavy weight workout three times a week. I'm eating 150 grams of protein minimum per day.


Applying tech to longevity & exponential organizations (01:37:43)

I'm adding creatine onto my diet for that. I'm taking a couple of peptides to increase my IGF-1 levels. And all of these things are aimed at that objective. Now do you do TRT at all? I'm doing a small amount of testosterone replacement therapy. So at the end of the day that is an objective I have. But we're way off subject from an exponential organization. Well, I mean so the thing that I'm most interested in is what do people apply this stuff to? And so as we look at exponential technologies I think one of the most important things for people is longevity. Like if you're not getting an extra bit of life out of this. I mean so if I got better life out of it sure I would still be interested. But if we can get better and more then I'm on board. Yeah, I mean everything I'm doing right now in building companies you know I've got a what will be a $700 million venture fund aimed at age reversal and longevity. Right. So I'm going to be doing a lot of these companies and then fountain life my catch phrase is there is like I'm going to prevent people from dying from something stupid, preventable which is the first thing right. But then there's a whole slew of therapeutics that are coming down the line. How do we test all these therapeutics around the world that we're hearing about from stem cells and exosomes and celibic medicines and how do we know if they work? We only know if they work if we have longitudinal data and that's why fountain life is so valuable because we have massive corpus of data minimum once a year as these people are going through the therapeutics and we're seeing who's it working for? What are they taking? What's their genomics? What's their with wearables? You understand their amount of sleep they're getting the amount of exercise they're getting. We're digitizing ourselves. I mean this is the for me the longevity discussion is as important as the AI discussion because if you can crack through that the potential and the implications for society are unbelievable. It's a complete transformation in society at every level. One of my favorite experiences over the last 10 years I got asked to come in by the Vatican because they have the worst immune system in the world. The pope is trying to update the truth. We did a workshop there and one of the conversations we had was listen your business model is about selling heaven and we're entering a longevity field. You actually said that? Yeah. That's the business model. All the religions sell heaven. Did they gasp in cluster pearls when you said it's all heaven? They know this is what you're selling hope and you're selling eternity etc. As we have longevity extending our lifespan what happens to your business model if people aren't dying and that was a conversation that it needs to be said. I think the broader for one of the things I'm fascinated by is the idea that every institution by which we run the world completely changes now over the next 10 to 15 to 20 years because it can't none of the institutions regulatory legal systems healthcare systems, intellectual properties broken education systems all change completely based on these exponential technologies the implications of longevity and we have no feedback loop in those. Sline what do you think happens when you die?


Slines beliefs about death & reincarnation (01:40:45)

I'm of the opinion that we there's an energy life forcing us that then transcends and takes on some other so I would fall into the reincarnation. In a conscious way? I mean when you study the Tibetans they've learned how to do it in a conscious way because they actually choose where they're going to get reincarnated into and they have trackers. They've laid down books. Yeah do you know this? No this all sounds crazy. Oh so do you know how they choose the Dalai Lama? I know like the movie version like there's toys or whatever, things belong to him. They give let's say there's five prospective kids that could be at the Dalai Lama because they've exhibited certain care they give them this massive jar of beads and if they pick the right marble out of that massive jar that's one marble out of like a thousand in this jar. Okay is it like the only black marble? They're indistinguishable from each other they literally that's and if they pick that out that's the entry point into the process. Forget that's the choice but thinking that's the entry point. Then you look at the next set of tests and the final one they'll come down like four kids that could be the one. They'll write the name on a little sheet of paper, wrap it in four balls of dough. They weigh them all to make sure they're the same. They'll put in a bowl and they'll start swirling it around and when the same ball pops out like ten times in a row which odds are it should never happen. That's the one. And if you add it all up there's no way in hell probabilistically that you can ever find the next Dalai Lama. Like you've gone through a ten tests. This is my curiosity gene. And this is like just fastening. This is just utterly fastening. So if you when you study them they I spent some time with some Tibetan priests and so on. And they said it used to take 14 lifetimes to reach enlightenment but we've gotten better now now if you work really hard you can do it in one lifetime. And so you transcend. And frankly my belief is that you die, you, your energy of your soul, whatever that is from a phenomenal logical perspective we don't quite understand. It goes in rest elsewhere. Okay. So is the perception I have that I have just infinite amounts of not existing followed by somewhere around the age of five. And I start remembering things, is that an illusion and I am on some I don't want to call it a loop but effectively a loop. Could be. I mean look at look at the tree growing a leaf right at the in the fall the leaf falls off and in the spring of a new leaf. Is that a new leaf? Is it a reincarnation of the old leaf? You get this where Ray I think says the best when he talks about this stuff and stuff like he goes language is really thin pipe to talk about concepts as deep as this because you get stuck in the verbiage. Yes, but that also feels like a way of letting us off the hook for not pursuing an argument which I get like we will reach the edges of what we're able to articulate.


Personal Experiences And Perspectives

Karters take on Sutter's story (01:43:52)

Yeah. But I do like coming to understand at least people's own internal logic. So is to me a leaf is another leaf is like another bit of hair right. Let me tell you where I stand. I having looked at the data long enough for me reincarnation is a real thing. Okay. What data are you looking at? So there's a story I tell you this is going to. So in about 20, 30 years ago at the University of Virginia and elderly fellow died left behind a chunk of money for anybody that wanted to study reincarnation. Now I may have the details slightly wrong but this is I mean you can just look it up yourself. Some young graduate student goes a pot of funding. I'll study it. Those and creates a big research database of there's a phenomena where some two year old suddenly knows who they were in a past life and can walk into the house where they lived and know that this was hidden behind the painting happens a lot in India where people are more accepting of this, etc. The most extreme example of this was a kid born in the favelas in Rio having never been out of the favelas suddenly starts speaking some weird language. So if you think the kids gone mad take him to a psychiatrist. Psychologist goes doesn't exhibit madness but this is I think he's speaking a different language. Take him to a linguist and after a bunch of research they find this kid is speaking a dialect of Aramaic that hasn't been spoken for 2000 years. And the kids never been outside the favelas of Rio. So there's a bunch of phenomena like this. The one that this guy focused on was this idea that the age of two or three some little child suddenly remembers things and knows things about that they couldn't possibly even know. So I was tracking this and putting this new big spreadsheet. So I heard him speak at an event and I said what does it take to get into your database? Because it's pretty vague it could be somebody how do you tell if something and he said well it has to be something physical. I said what do you mean? He goes well if the young child thought they were somebody else in a previous life is there a scar or a birthmark or an allergy or a disfigurement that's the same. And if one of those meets the criteria one of those is the same as the person that died then I feel that's qualified enough to like that's a pretty high bar to have one of those four things present in this. How many entries are there in your database? And the number blew my mind. It's not something like 3,500. So this guy's 3,500 fully researched cases where a two year old said that oh that was me in a pre that that was my life before and had one of those matching things. That to me is a ridiculously significantly significantly significantly around the data. And it turns out that distance was fascinating distance was almost the child that was born was almost within four kilometers of the person that died. That was interesting. The second was that the time the age of the child was almost always the baby was born five months after the person died. So there's something about that period of time. And have you always been open to that? I'm violently skeptical. I'm not. No, I'm not. I mean I'm from India originally so I have an inherent acceptance but I was raised in a very diplomatic Western family. My dad was an engineer. I did engineering for a while in physics. So I came across this later. But the data for me is fascinating and show me something that countervails that. You know I keep on telling Salim I would love to have an experience I can't explain. I've never had a UFO sighting or anything that I can't with a scientific technological mind explain. I've had hundreds including the episode 10 years ago with you. What's the episode 10 years ago? Can I tell you? Please. So we're building singularity university. Three years in the model has gone from zero to one it's working and I'm fried. My wife and I got married the week of the launch of the thing. So I'm at NASA 20 hours a day. She's hardly seen me. And Peter and I were disagreeing a bit on strategy. You wanted me to keep the faculty at NASA and I thought we should take them out into the world and if you want to change the world we should get out there. Peter's like no let everybody come here. It's easier to just lead or manage etc. And after three years I'm kind of really burned out and we're trying to have a baby my wife like upset because we're never home. So I said to Peter look I'm going to need a break and etc. Two days later Peter says okay we've had a board meeting we've replaced her. I thought wow that was fast but okay now I'm free and very friendly overall legacies now set so great. My wife then gets pregnant. Now so I said to her listen we've had no alone time since we got married once the baby comes that's gone. So let's take three months before I do whatever I do next and enjoy each other and then she said great but I don't want to be anywhere near NASA. I can't explain the standing of my family and friends. They think NASA like the Bahamas it's a big problem. You pick the place. So she researches for several weeks picks a penthouse vacation rental in Santa Monica overlooking the ocean and she's a yoga teacher so Santa Monica's ground zero for this. So we move in put suitcases down I go out to get a coffee come back and she's standing with her hands on her hips. It's very upset. It's like what's wrong we picked the wrong place. I'm like what do you mean she goes well look at this Vista you this is amazing. She was come to the balcony. You'll see the house across the street right there with the bamboo trees. I'm like yeah Peter's house in the whole of LA. Like next door right now if you tried to make that happen you could not make that happen.


Seeing cause and effect as illusionary (01:49:44)

I call it karmic mischief and you know and I'm sure if you think about it almost every major thing in your life has happened because of a weird orthogonal experience. Yeah but just think of the thousands of things that you didn't notice that actually happened as well. This is a selection by us I'm sorry. Maybe but Carl Carl Jung. Yes. Was very very clear that there's a there's a causal stream of reality that everybody can see and you can link experiences A to B to C of consequence and there was an entirely A causal stream of reality like wormholes with things that are happening etc and that we couldn't see. I'm still waiting for those aliens to come and you know take me home. But you've done some psychedelics. I have had some great well listen yes but I still in the normal universe that I inhabit there hasn't been I haven't seen anybody levitating or haven't seen something that is like that's miraculous. You know a coincidence interesting miraculous no. I have not. No I take a I am very much a what do they call that where materialist like it's all cause and effect the odds that are sense of that I control my life is probably an illusion and yeah that just all makes sense to me like if you had a computer that could track every Adam since the beginning of time that you'd be able to predict where we're going to be in ten years and you'd be able to replay the universe all the way back to the big bang that just makes sense to me and that doesn't diminish my sense of awe in the slightest. Like I look at and by the way I asked the question if you knew with certainty that you were living in a simulation would it change anything and no and there was no A no B so you were talking about Project Kaizen before we started rolling that's its premise that this is a simulation and it doesn't matter it's still all the same. You know so if I could finish that story with this weird coincidence I got to a point about five seven years ago where I was having not this insane kind of coincidence used to happen but once a year in my life started happening of quarterly and then it happened started happening every two weeks and I can barely process one in the next ridiculous coincidence on me and I was freaking out because I was like really messing with things so I have a cousin who's done 40 years of daoist meditation in the woods etc.


Coincidences and profound learnings (01:51:46)

So I said to her she's my resident understanding the universe person so I said help me with this she's like well listen to me for a bit she was well dao you've told the universe you're ready for anything they'll give you everything. I'm like wait what she's after come to an agreement with the energies in the universe to only give it to you when you're ready for it. I'm like where's the manual for that? So she coached me on this and you can do this you can do it's you know if you did it at the fully reductionist level it's creative visualization right you visualize what you want and things can happen etc. And we all do that you do that that's what the MTP is all about. You program yourself in your surroundings your subconscious to out for the outcomes you want and then those things happen. But those outcomes occur to a large degree because I'm outwardly communicating my massive transformative purpose I'm telling the world those people who gravitate to it are coming to me and they're bringing things to me that are in line with that MTP it's not like I'm just meditating on in silence and the world is changing. But what you're actually doing is you're programming reality or I'm programming how I deal with reality both right reality is happening and again a mindset is how I deal with opportunity or scarcity. Someone comes to me with something that someone would be scared of and I'm like excited about it and I go in a different course than the other person. So I didn't know you'd done psychedelics what was your response you guys have both done it I assume. I went into a you know psychedelics not for joy or pleasure but with with shaman guiding and I have done Iowaska number of times I've done a combination of psilocybin and and my heart got MDMA but for me it was my DMT journeys that were the most significant have you done DMT? Have you done DMT? No I haven't done any I've micro dose psilocybin to virtually no effect. So the the DMT which is also called the toad or bufo dimethyl tryptophan I think is the thing is dimethyl tryptamine tryptamine was was extraordinarily compelling and it is a dissolution of the ego which is and a connection with the universe that lets you know that love is a pervasive force and we're all connected in that regard and that I had my most significant visualization about when if you ask me the question what do you think happens after after we're alive after we die. That was my that was it first of all it got rid of the fear of death 100% which is probably the most extraordinary because it realized everything is connected everything is connected and we're just part of the universe and it's it's a transitory so I want you to imagine this is the visualization I had which gives me goosebumps still to this day I'm I'm coming out of my journey with in these in these DMT journeys are very short you know 20 minutes thereabouts unless you're silly because they last longer there but let me finish so I'm I'm seeing


Daves personal DMT experience and Jasons interest (01:54:37)

this this sea of energy just like a frothing sea of infinite energy a plane of energy in every direction and I see coming out of the sea of energy to double helices and they come out of the energy and they're there and then they go back into the energy and that was it and it was the realization I can see it like of yesterday it's a realization of this infinity of of creation and energy and life emerges from it consciousness emerges from it and then reenters it I can you know listen this is my mind giving it meaning we are meaning making machines but so let me so you've had that you're you're just kind of rationalizing it in your previous I can't I that's fine that's fine but let me give you tell you why I got excited by this whole world 2012 we had a lecture at Singularity I think it was Christosharm and he what he'd been doing was doing a whole bunch of clinical trials with people taking different dosages of MDMA cell assignment etc and putting them through an fMRI machine so in the 60s when Timothy Leary and all these guys were taking drugs they had no idea what they were just chucking it down right but this now we know exactly that this dosage substance of substance a will do this to neural circuit b and know exactly the emphasis and how much of an impact it'll have etc and I found that fascinating because now we have a feedback loop what got me interested in dm t feedback loop to what end well because now you can see what neural circuits are being amplified or impact in you can now play with play with me so I have to ask them so knowing how you're creating that state by manipulating certain neurons in your brain how how do you see an allergy or a scar I don't know that I wish I did I don't but it's fascinating that that's there at the numbers that it's there if it happened three four times you go ah three four times thirty five hundred times I got I got to start looking at that and that's that's just the sheer numbers compel you to look at it a little more deeply but so for me now it looked let's look at what dm t does dm t what it does is suppress the parietal lobe which is where your sense of self-sits when you can take a dosage of it you suppress that parietal lobe and you are now free to explore the higher realms of your consciousness that you didn't have access to before is so when dm t is going is that all that's happening is is are there any areas that are more active or is it literally just shutting off the sense of self unclear but it seems the primary function is that reduces the activity in the parietal lobe I'm so fascinated by how many start looking at other areas and now what's really interesting to me on top of that is we've it turns out there's lots of old practices whirling dervishes when they do their Turkish spinning end up with a dm t release they now know that I did not roll that it was naturally occurring in your brain it gets released twice in your life once at birth once at death so when people have a near death experience they see the white light does dm t really seem interesting so now they've found religious experiences almost all religious experiences are essentially you work the physiology of the body to a point where you have a dm t release tantra and kundalini work results in that they take ground energy lifted through your body and you end up with a dm t i don't take the dm t journey lightly at all it's one of the most insightful and again I experienced it with reverence all and and and as a means to explore myself in the universe in a in a different way and I'm very thankful for it yeah I'm very intrigued I ask about this a lot and and by the way you know I I got to a point after it I said I'm just going to open share it openly I don't plan to run for president and I don't care what anybody thinks about it it was critically important to me yeah beautiful you met michael yansson a couple of days ago yes so one of the most fascinating things about him he's one of the most present people I've ever met and I said how do you maintain this like you have this incredible ability to just let things go not worry about stuff things happen everything just passes through him and and it doesn't stick it's amazing he just kind of releases instantly and he I get he couldn't answer and


Heroic dose (01:59:58)

I kept wanting to pull it and he goes oh I've done a hero dose a few times I go hero dose so normal dose I guess is 100 milligrams of psilocybin a hero doses when you do like five grams it's like a factory reset on your nervous system I'm like holy crap you've done that he goes I do it every year and and so all of cognitive biases that he may have built up etc constantly getting released and they're free operates in this unbelievably present form I think that's just amazing and I'm completely impressed by the younger generation micro dosing you know one of the conversations I've been having at home recently is is the human species waking up right you've heard of these conversations Sam Harris and all I'm gonna ask you guys if you've heard him describe his heroic dose and and so when we talk about becoming conscious at a species level in the next foreseeable future one of the questions that that Kristen asked was are we becoming conscious before AI becomes conscious so this is an interesting conversation that would be I mean it would be very interesting I don't know if I can imagine an entire societal level awakening but certainly as humans continue to progress as we are able to share ideas so much faster in the same way that culture has stacked on the technological side if it stacks on the insight side and well imagine having a brain computer interface connection to the cloud along with a billion other people and sharing one's thoughts I call this the meta intelligence where we become conscious on a large level right you and I and Celine are all collections of 40 trillion human cells you're not a single life form you are 40 trillion human cells and then trillions of bacteria of VIRI fungi and so forth but you operate as one right and so are we going to become conscious yet on another level to bring it back to exponential organizations a traditional 20th century organization we would think of as unconscious with trundling along trying to get profits etc and in EXO's a very conscious organization what makes it conscious? MTP. It's in the massive purpose plus it's constantly sensing with a feedback loop it's constantly experimenting it's allowing its people to operate in a decentralized autonomous way to make decisions on their own it's like an amoeba moving around sensing the world and little by little evolving so there are I want to bring this back because I really want the community here to hear this and I want to use on use impact theory as the example here so there are 10 attributes that make an exponential organization they have the the acronym scale and ideas and if we could I just want to take off the ones that that you hit so let's begin. Staff on demand so you use staff on demand. We do a bit but I actually don't love that it was one of the things in your book I want to talk about but so okay staff on demand yes we do okay second community yes very much. Community is massive for you right third AI and algorithms yes aggressively aggressively fourth leveraging other people's assets I don't know what you mean by that cloud computing yes right you don't have computers servers in your closet that you're using we do have some of that but not nearly as much as we leverage the cloud. The prototype there is Airbnb that the entire business model is topping the other people's bedrooms making them available and the fourth the fifth one in scale is engagement. Gantification incentive prizes which is web 3 is your whole thing right you're like a master of that so those are the five externalities and EXOs use one or more of them allows them to keep a very small resource footprint and then scale very quickly like Ted uses community very effectively for example then there's five internal mechanisms that allow you to manage culture and drive the dashboard and the control framework of the organization the first is interfaces to those externalities so think about Uber's interface with its drivers or Apple's interface with its app store developers it's an automated API driven interface that allows you to programmatically manage the abundance on the outside and then add value to it the second one is dashboards and this is real-time business metrics to track what's happening in the kind of issues. I assume you use dashboards left right and center. Not as much as we should but for our funnels yes for your fun. Sure and then OKRs for team performance and team management we found is them so those are dashboards the E is experimentation which is lean startup thinking constantly testing assumptions non-stop running of experiments and the culture risk taking inside the organization constantly testing the edges and seeing what works what doesn't work etc. The A is autonomy decentralizing decision making and allowing people to self-select what they want to work on as much as possible. Which is one of the hardest things for a CEO or an entrepreneur to do is to say listen here's our mission our mission is 10 million viewers whatever it is doing in this and this and this we want to give you the authority autonomy to go and work on projects that are aligned with our MTP go. Google does this a bit. The master of this I should tell this quick story there's a Chinese appliance manufacturer called hierarchy. They make like 55 million fridges in ovens here. Jesus yeah they're so huge company and 80,000 people operating in a classic pyramid form command and control hierarchical as heck. CEO one day decides can't move my corporate goals with this structure blows it up turns 80,000 people into 2,000 teams of about 40 people each. Each team has a P&L target each team elects their own leader and most insane each team decides to do whatever they want to do. Now you go to any business school in the world say I want to make 50,000 million fridges and then tell you you need a ton of centralized demand forecasting inventory managers supply chain. Turns out you don't these literally these 2,000 teams work autonomously like a beehive every team is deciding what they want. How do they decide what teams to keep? They don't. The team decide on their own. You can't get fired. If you can't if your team doesn't mean it's P&L targets you have an issue and the way they meet the P&L targets is they work on a product and the products are the revenues are pooled against that product. So when they want to literally can't imagine this, there's a whole book written on this. I mean, what's the book called? I'll get you the title. The case study is higher. And when they want to vote on what decide what features should we go in a new fridge they vote. And 2,000 teams that are constantly outwardly facing with vendor suppliers, partners, customers are coming up with a much better decision than some product strategy team hold up with market forecasts and research groups. And so GE appliances actually gave up and sold that whole division too higher because they couldn't compete because you can do so much more with the decentralized organization. We're not quite ready for DAOs, but we will be over time and you're kind of building one in this way. I'm not. I'm violently not building a DAO. Well, think about what you're doing, right? With your metaverse environment. Anybody can come in self provision and play in that environment. They can play in that environment. Yeah. They're certainly trying to build things so that they can build in that environment. But that is that's a platform play. Like I get platforms. Yeah. And so our fantasy would be on a long enough timeline where like the YouTube video games. So people can come in and build not we we could go down a rabbit hole about how we're going to be different in the Roblox, but we have a vision, but leveraging some of that. But this is like, I literally wrote before you started talking. The thing I want to talk about is how you leverage autonomy. So the way that we think about it at impact theory is I want people to be able to make decisions in their area. Like, okay, your function is art, for instance. I'm not going to come in and turn you into a pair of hands. I want you to think for yourself, you understand our objectives, go do the art thing. But we set the objectives as a company, then the department sets their own objectives, and then the individual works with their supervisor to set it. But this is not, hey, you're in a team of 40 and like, I hope you meet your P and L. Like, I can't fathom how you get that. I have to imagine that this is never going to be the standard. It's non trivial to implement. But when you can implement is very powerful, let me give you two examples that bridge the spectrum.


Google's autonomous work model (02:08:35)

One is if you're an employee and you join Google is a new hire. Okay, you're not placed on a team. What they do is go, you've got six months, float around, meet different teams, work with them, da da da da da. How do they decide to hire you? You have to hire. They hire based on it. That's it. They're super smart. And we know we need Python developers. So hire the Python developer. Now, do you work on Gmail? Do you work on Google Maps, etc? What you do is you float around as that developer or front end person or designer, whatever your skill set is. And you float around, you meet the different teams. You see where you have chemistry, you go, I really love what they're doing on Google Maps. Team seems like me to go, sure, come and join us. Now, if after six months, you haven't found a team bigger conversation, you probably don't fit there for some reason. But if you found a team after choosing over six months, all a bunch of different options, you're probably where you really, really like being. So now off they go. So that's one example of implementing this in the new hire model.


Work Models In Different Organizations

Tangerine's autonomous work model (02:09:31)

The full extent of autonomy, I'll give you the example of Tangerine Bank in Canada, which is used to be ING direct. So they operate on this fully autonomous basis. They have no CEO, no reporting lines, no management teams, no middle management, no meetings of any kind. They literally operate on a beehive, where each employee self selects us to what they want to do. Okay. Now you're a regulated bank. Canadian banks are very regulated. Right. So what happens is when the marketing guy goes, Oh, let's do an online promotion because he self selected wants to focus on that. And they launch an online promotion, everybody flows to the phone banks and helps out getting phone calls. When it's regularly rectoring reporting time, they all fled to the regulatory systems and fill out all the paperwork to fill out all the forms to show the Canadian government that they're viable. The most amazing example I've seen of this is Valve software out of Seattle that makes the steam platform. But 400 people, same ethos, no CEO reporting lines. So if I spot a bug in the software, I grab three people, we go fix the bug, we disband. Every employee self selects what they want to work on. And it sounds completely like a joke, but they get more revenue per employee than Microsoft. They make a fortune. So it's very doable. You have to start it. You have to start it with that principle in mind. Yeah, it's like physics, something a particle born above the speed of light can't go slower and below the speed of light can't exceed the speed of light. I think you have to is this found founding starting conditions for your company. Yeah, this is that I don't know what I find harder to believe reincarnation or that you can do this. But look, I don't shut down emotionally. I'm very open. I just everything that I know with perhaps just my limited skill set, that is a recipe for chaos. Or you have to hit a certain size. Like when I think about Google being able to do that, there's no way that you can start like that. I get how you can get so big, you have so much surplus money that you can let it person wander around for six months with no like real specific job or that you can hire somebody just, Oh, you know, Python and you're smart. Great. You know, Valve software is about 400 people. It's not that. They're also the company when you said, Oh, we're doing a case study on Valve in the book. I was like, Oh, you mean the company that couldn't get half life three or two, whichever it was out for 15 years? I was like, yeah, I'm not surprised. But then you said that they make more of her employees. I was like, Oh, fuck. Yeah. So it directed execution turns out to be non trivial in these organizations. It's like Dow governance, right? It's an oxymoron. It's very hard to mess. Right. So, um, but in terms of resilience, unbelievable, because you cannot break that organization, because everybody's self selecting when there's a problem, they naturally find the problem, they go fix it. I think you need to still hire for that people need to have. You absolutely have to hire you cannot, you know, Tony Shay tried for three years to implement that into Zappos, and it just failed. You can't bring it into it. This is why we say when you're an existing organization and you want to turn into EXO, don't go through the nightmare of trying to transform or so put a create new EXOs on the edge and let those slowly become the new gravity center. Let's see example of the company. Maybe it was the washing machine company or the fridge company, but they literally were like, we're firing everybody and then a third of them left and they restarted with two thirds and they did just fine.


Zappos Experiment (02:12:41)

Zappos did that and so did the hire. It was hired in the book. Yeah. In fact, Zappos, when Tony Shay first suggests he voluntarily said who wants to move to this model and everybody's like, yeah, this is crazy. We're not doing that. So then you went, we strongly suggest that you move to this model. Then finally, he said, if you don't move to that model, you're fired. And even then it failed. Very hard to implement into a legacy organization. Did we finish the attributes? Oh, so autonomy and the final one of social technologies, Asana, Slack, Zoom, Chatter, Yammer, etc. They allowed you to glue in people together. We have really good evidence today that peer-to-peer collaboration is much more powerful than traditional top-down command and control thinking. So what do you guys think about what Elon is doing at Twitter? He recently was interviewed and he said it is immoral to work from home. And I was like, wow. Yeah, we had this conversation yesterday about, you know, listen, I miss having an office setting. I do and I miss and I recognize and realize that the intensity of the amount of work that gets done when a group is together is substantially higher than alone. But you know, the flip side of that is the geographic arbitrage that I can get access to talent. And I might not otherwise get to move to Santa Monica. Yeah. I mean, my CO lives in the Bay Area, my VP of finances in Spain, my head of communities in Cape Town. We have a totally distributed organization. And yes, we're less efficient than if everybody was in one place. But I can operate across multiple time zones seamlessly. People are living where they want to live. They're living with their families, etc, etc. So I'm a believer in the remote work side. Yeah, I also think we're going to see a transition as the next generation of metaverse systems come online. You know, if we're there will be a point where we are sitting in the metaverse and I feel like I'm here with you and having this conversation. And hopefully the glass where becomes light enough and easy enough where it's very interactive. The key heuristic, I think, when you think about Elon with Twitter, etc. And people is do you trust them? Do you trust your people? And most corporations operate out of mistrust, you're like checking things and you have to file a travel expense reports, etc, etc. And the entire structure is set up to mistrust you. And when we move to this new model of EXOs, by default, you tend to trust the teams to do what they're trying to do best. You're trying to trust you trust over control, right? Trust be control is one of the key implications. Jerry McCalsky is one of our community members said this brilliantly. He said, scarcity equals abundance minus trust. It's interesting for me, it doesn't come down to trust. I don't even want to have to think about the people on my team. I want to play my position. I want them to play theirs. And I never want to have to think about it. It really comes down to results and focus and like you need, like this is going to be interesting saying to you guys, but you need some variation of the immune system in that the immune system will detect cancer. So yes, it can say no to things that it shouldn't say no to, but it can also stop the free writers. And the just reality is that you will get people using game theory to be like, oh, you can hide in this company and everybody can just do whatever the hell they want. You will get people that then just become selfish and then other people look at that and resentment builds and so you get other people. How do you do that? There's a, I'm moving all of my companies onto something called the EOS, the entrepreneurial operating system. And it's normal. It's a, it's a, it's, you can go look it up, entrepreneurial operating system. And, and what we do is we meet and it's a process of thinking and running your organization, sort of like an operating system for a company. And we have what's called a 10x meeting every week with the entire group.


EOS (02:16:56)

We're reviewing our rocks, our action items, our dashboards, and everybody's got assigned specific actions and, and it's not possible to hide in that regard. If you properly implement OKRs, you really can't hide. And yet you can give people a lot of autonomy and they can do go do the thing, but whether it's EOS or whatever the model is, it brings it together. So we have today a very modern team and individual performance structures that allow us to handle that. You can hide in traditional organizations because there's 20 developers on some team and nobody knows really who's the, who the rock stars are. HR never knows. One thing we've noticed that the particular indictment I would have is today's most big corporations are structured in a matrix structure products on the verticals and they have legal HR branding, privacy, etc. And Terry Semmel, when he was running Yahoo made the mistake of putting in a matrix structure into it. And it's like that structure is great for kind of command and control, but it's terrible for risk taking and it's terrible for speed because every time we try and do something you want to have to clear all those levels. So it was taking us close to a year to release some feature on Yahoo! Purcell's and MySpace was released and Facebook was the killer here where they came along and Zuckerberg said, "If you feel your code is ready, take it live on the live site. We'll give you access to the live site. Your code better be good. Otherwise if you take that, take us down you're fired." But the developers got such a sense of empowerment and autonomy from that. And wow, he trusts us to let us take our code live. They were rolling out features every week. Do they still do that? I'm not sure if they still do that, but that was what got them. That was what blew MySpace way, blew Yahoo away at the time. The early days of high risk taking for any entrepreneurial companies is amazing. We don't have a legal department yet. We don't have an HR department. And over time, power cruises to the the horizontals because they have no incentive in saying yes.


Conclusion And Further Follow-Up

Where to Follow Along (02:18:56)

And so when we coach CEOs, we basically say, "Take all those horizontal layers and every three, four years, just blow them up and reinvent them." So tell me, where can people follow along with you guys to learn this stuff in detail to get help executing? We built a community around this whole model called and it sits at OpenExO.com and people can go there. It's free to join. We are now of 24,000 consultants, entrepreneurs, innovators in 140 countries that are using these models to apply them to come join us on the Master Cloud. Yeah, either join us live on the six or get the Master Cloud in the book and the AI afterwards. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe. And until next time, my friends, be legendary. Take care. Peace. AI is changing the world at an insane pace. And if you want to learn all about it, be sure to watch this episode with the Godfather of AI himself, Yashua Benjio. Our computer is becoming conscious right now.


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