Turning Boys Into Men: How To Master Power, Sex, Psychology To Stop Feeling Lost | Justin Waller | Transcription

Transcription for the video titled "Turning Boys Into Men: How To Master Power, Sex, Psychology To Stop Feeling Lost | Justin Waller".


Note: This transcription is split and grouped by topics and subtopics. You can navigate through the Table of Contents on the left. It's interactive. All paragraphs are timed to the original video. Click on the time (e.g., 01:53) to jump to the specific portion of the video.


Intro (00:00)

I'm not an advocate for porn, but the one thing porn did do is show the average man with a really beautiful woman looks like naked. A woman can put her ass on Instagram and make more money than the man that built the pro to get to where we're going. I think that's a big issue with society, and I think that's men's fault. It's the best man you can be. Because if you can become that man, you now have the opportunity to be able to act like a gentleman and not have to do things to manipulate other people. You're just that guy. I think that there is something very wrong with masculinity.

Discussing Masculinity And Societal Expectations

What is the problem with Masculinity? (00:29)

I think that there is what I'll call societal decay. I think something is going wrong. One I'd love to know if you agree and if you do, what precisely do you think is the problem with modern masculinity? I think there's a lot of things involved. I think social media is a big part of it. What is it about social media? I think in a lot of ways, if you look to any man that wants to have a good life, he needs to be appreciated. For example, I have a lot of guys that work for me in a steel company. One thing that I'm constantly challenged with is that guy, even though he's great at what he does, even though he's built in America, even though he's doing things that makes the world go round, nobody appreciates him for it. When he goes on Facebook or Instagram, he sees a 21-year-old that called a crypto pump or did Amazon drop shipping drive in a Lambo and to buy. I think that's a really big problem for me. What causes that problem though? That feels more to me like it is a consequence of something that we need to establish is what should a man derive his worth from? Money, women, cars. That's not going to do it for you ever, ever, ever. It's going to be you meeting the expectation you have for yourself and the man. You envision this man that you're going to become. I think most people do that from an early age. They see something they want an avatar or something they want to do and they want to go become that person. I believe the formula for happiness and fulfillment is the gap between your expectation of who you become and your reality. A lot of guys are not meeting that expectation for themselves. I think it's harder and harder to do that, particularly in a world where we've gone off the gold standard, a man can't just have a job and support a family and be the man of the house anymore. I think that's one of the biggest issues with families now. I want to make sure that we're careful to piece together exactly the argument here. When I say that we have societal decay and it's tied to masculinity, is that, are we in agreement with that? 100%. Okay. Then as we begin to tease apart, what does that mean? The first thing you went to was men or they're not being appreciated. Social media sort of blasts that out. You see all these images not of hard working, blue collar. I'm putting that word in your mouth, but sort of hands in the dirt doing something hard. That's no longer being celebrated. Instead, it's the crypto pump, whatever. That and I say this a lot is that a woman can put her ass on Instagram and make more money than the man that built the road to get to where we're going. I think that's a big issue with society and I think that's men's fault. I think this whole thing is actually the fault of weak men. Okay. So why is putting your ass on Instagram a problem? Because in a lot of ways, how was a man ever going to be able to be with a woman that is showing herself all over the internet and still garner her respect if he doesn't shut it down? Okay. Let's really answer that question. So garnering her respect does not feel like there would be any problem if your girl is, I'm assuming we're talking OnlyFans here. So your girl has an OnlyFans account. She's putting her ass out there. She has been given a gift from God or she's working on it and she's in incredible shape and men are responding. In many cases, she's going to make more money than the average guy. Which is fine. What I don't understand is, well, not true. I understand it. I would argue that it's not fine for their dynamic probably. Okay. So the base assumption that I hear you say is that their dynamic will not be successful and will need to define success in a second. But their dynamic will not be successful. She will not be able to. She won't be able to respect him. Is that where you're going? Because she earns more money. She's in the growth of dynamic. Yeah, I think in most cases when the woman makes more than the man, then there's a bit of an issue. Okay. And you see it quite a bit. I don't think that's a crazy statement. It's interesting. I don't think it's a crazy statement, but there's a follow on statement which is, but what's the alternative? Because I live by a motto, never asks someone to slow down so that you can lead. I agree. I agree with that completely. And here's another thing. I don't judge those women on OnlyFans. I think in the past, I might have put a light out there that I do. Actually I don't because in my opinion, there's not enough strong men out there that could lead a woman for all of the women that probably make money on OnlyFans to find somebody they can look up to. I do think that's very important in a relationship dynamic that the woman does look up to the man in some way.

Is Respect and Love the Same Thing? (04:48)

I do think that's very important. I think that's very primal as well. Do you think it's important that men look up to the women in some way? I think it's important that they love and respect them. But there's a clear distinction for you between love and respect. There's a clear distinction for you. Who the leader is. Respect equals love, right? I'll take that in that you believe that. I do believe that. I'd love for you to challenge it. I don't know yet. So you don't think if your woman doesn't respect you, she doesn't love you? I don't think I love, certainly I don't love everyone romantically that I respect. No, of course not. That's not what I'm saying. Respect equals love in the sense that if a woman can't respect you, she's probably not going to love you. And as she's going to... Yes. And in many situations when a woman goes to leave, she has lost respect for that man in some way. I do believe that. Respect I would say is necessary but not sufficient for a long-term parabond. Will you give me that? I'll give you anything. Okay. So what do you think is though? What do you think is though? What do I think is the whole cocktail? Yeah. What do you think is a cohesion that keeps a man and a woman together? And this is, we're now really jumping to right where I think my disconnect is with the... God. What word? Red pill is what people are going to apply to you. I know how to do that. You seem to side step that. Yeah. I definitely want to. Yeah. So what word would you put on your stance if you had to put it under an umbrella? I believe the more strong men we build in this world, the better for men and as a result, the better for women. Okay. So we'll call that instead of calling it red pill. It's like J- Waller philosophy. Or whatever. Yeah. Call it whatever you want. Men have to understand that life is going to be difficult. They're going to have to fight their ass off to get in a position to be able to find a partner that looks up to them, respects them, they can lead a family and fulfill fulfillment and be in the leader of that family. I think that's very natural for every man to want to be the leader of the household. Yes. Okay. This is a very complicated issue. Let's take things one at a time. So my bundle of things that I think make for a long-term relationship, and this is the one thing where I'll say as we distill these down, I think this is the place where we're going to see where we don't agree. Cool. Let's do it. So I think that nature from an evolutionary standpoint has ensured that you are half of a whole and that for you to manifest in your life all of the success emotionally and in the tangible world of staying safe, being fed, all of that, procreating that you need to come together as a unit. And so now the question becomes what is the ideal unit and what is going to make sure that that unit stays safe and strong. So when I look at that, there is a neurological component to parabonding. So Dr. Ayman has done research on this fascinating guy. If people don't know who is looking up, he's a neuroscientist that's done more brain scanning, I think than anybody else. So he's been doing this for 20 plus years. Like oxytocin. Yeah. So there's a person oxytocin. And he was saying, I won't let someone date my daughter until I scan their brain and I see how receptive they are to those two compounds because they're the compounds that predict parabonding. And I thought, ooh, that's really interesting. And I think is a key reason why, so I've been married for 21 years and why I think our marriage has been so successful. And she got with me when I was broke. It's hilarious that people, a key is my life of being a cold dude. Bro, people on the internet, bro. So she finds it funny. And I find it hilarious. So part of our reason, I think I'm a super responder. So for me, I really get something out of parabonding. So when my wife and I got together, and by the way, she's the only woman I ever told I loved, not the only woman I've slept with, but the only woman I ever told I loved. So for me, it was like one shot, one kill. I knew exactly what I was looking for. When I found it, that was it. Lock it up. So, and then the rest was, okay, do I know how to navigate this so that it gives me enough to be worth the sacrifice? Again, I'm coming at this from a, an evolutionary perspective of what is most likely to allow us to come together to be safe in an ancestral environment where we're getting a tack left right and center, where our kids are hyper likely to die. This is all really a dangerous endeavor. And so coming together and saying, are we making each other better? Am I a better version of myself with her? Then I would be without her. Is she a better version of herself with me than without me? And does she make me her number one? And this is where I think we'll- I think that's a big one. Yeah, where we might see a schism between how we look at this.

Your Woman vs Your Friends (09:22)

So I, I would never give up sex with other women if I didn't become my wife's number one and feel like the coolest person in the world has picked me to be like, yo, if you ever slip, I've got you. You ever need to be pushed, I've got you. You never, ever need help, I'll laugh, whatever. Somebody to see you, celebrate you, cheer you on, whatever. Like I got you. That is the only thing that I have ever found that makes the other sacrifices, which is not just sex, but that's a big one, especially for guys, has made that worth it. Can I ask you a question on the, I got you thing? Please. The support, the cheering you on, that, that's awesome stuff, right? What about when you're down? Do you call your wife or do you call your guy friends? My wife, 100%. Yeah. Do you feel like you have a brotherhood where you could call people outside of your wife? Yes, but I understand the position. It's not a dis-eater. It's a genuine question. Whatever is true is true. I have no beef whatsoever. Yeah. No, I would say that is, that is outside, I have had that. So my previous business was with two other guys and it was always very clear to me that the brotherhood was far more important than the money and all that. Right. So I know what it is and I love it. But that, that to me is a very important part of what I think is broken. I think that men are not being held to a, a, exacting standard. I think that's a big part of the problem. You're, can you expand on exacting standard? I can, but I don't want to deviate too much from you. So that's sort of my, that, that's my rough nest of things where a relationship can be, can be worth all the sacrifice you will make for it and turn you into something better than you would be on your own. But the price it demands is that you be the other person's number one and you make them your number one. What is your basket of goods that you think make that relationship worthwhile or not? Well, actually everything you just said, I'm completely in line with now, I wouldn't take my problems, let's say to my wife because I believe there's a really important part of the male and female dynamic where you're, you get to be the hero, you get to be the one saving the day, you get to be the one solving all the problems, especially in a world full of men that are very feminized, not to say that you are, but I believe that men are more feminized now than they've ever been. And in the counter opposite direction with the female, like let's say feminism, women are going in the direction of more masculinity. Men are being more feminine and women are like, where are the men? And it's been my experience for women. I've either dated or seen or even at home. Hey, listen, I really like the fact that you take the lead, you take the mask and roll and allow me to be feminine. And in fact, I would even go as far as to say is that the smartest, strongest young women today are the ones that actually are okay with hearing the noise from the world and choose to be feminine, like and enjoy it. Maybe want to become a mother, which is something that's growing more and more unpopular or getting pushed back against an unrealistic timeframe that they have. So I do like the idea of being the hero and not bringing problems home or to someone that have to worry because I'm supposed to be the one solving those problems. This said, as a father or as somebody that's putting information on the internet, all I want to do is a few things. I want to educate people on or my children, let's just say my children on how the world works, give them the tools it takes to navigate through that world and put themselves in a position where they have choice. Outside of that, I don't want anything for anyone else but choice. And that's from, you know, guests that you've had on, let's say, let's say a destiny, you had destiny on, right? I got no issue with that guy. If that guy's happy and he's truly at peace with himself, even if he hated me, bro, I got nothing but love for him because all I want to see people have in their life is choice and happiness. And only you can decide that. So I think there's a way to make that happen. You obviously think there's a way to make that happening. There's a way to make that happen. I'm almost certain that those three ways are all completely, well, not completely different but different in some regards. But I don't think that's what solves for correct. I think what solves correct is if you're happy and you're fulfilled in that relationship. That's it. Do you think that there is anything preordained about what's going to make people happy and fulfilled? Yeah, I think appreciation for a man is one thing. I think men want to be appreciated. I really do. I think it's their job to go earn that appreciation. And I think women want to feel protected and loved and cared for fully. And they want to know that they have a position with that man where he is going to take care of them forever. Or he is going to put all of his efforts into taking care and he gets fulfillment from it. I get a lot of fulfillment from taking care of my family. I love it. My little girls are spoiled for anything they want.

Not Simping for Your Daughters (14:24)

And that I have heard you say you would not simp for your daughters though. I won't. Now, I'm glad you said that. So when they become 14, if they hear the wrong tweet or they want to start coming at me with the heat, I'll quickly remind them who pays the fucking bills. I'm not going to, I'm not going to simp for them. It's just not that time yet. Right now I want to love them. I want to know they have a father at home. I want them. They see me a lot. I was just telling you before the show, I imagine that I spent more hours with my kids and the average man because I'll come home for a week at a time, two weeks at a time, and stay with them all day. I see them quite a bit. I very much enjoy it. And when the time comes, the teenage years, if they want to get fresh with me, they will quickly find out that it's not going to play. That's it. In fact, I kind of look forward to setting that frame with them. I think it's going to be important. Okay. I want to talk about that. So even your energy changes when you talk about that, like you imagine them 14 come with the heat, your energy changed. So that moment I think is a very important moment. I think it's also very misunderstood and can create problems for sure in a marriage, could potentially create problems with kids, whatever. So why is that? I'm sorry, which thing? The change in energy. So I'll give you an example. My path was going from weak to strong, and I got into business and I was weak. And through the crucible of a brotherhood and the free market, I had to get hard. Now I spent a lot of years in a very intense, I'll be generous, a very intense environment. And it was exactly what I needed and it hardened me and made me far more capable than I ever was before. And it was incredible and I would never take it back. But as soon as I then branched out and started a company on my own, I was like, okay, I'm not doing that because it breaks almost everyone that it touches. And I used to think about it like the inner city. And the inner city breaks the vast majority of people that it touches, but you get a few people that have to get so tough to overcome that that they overshoot and they do just unbelievably amazing things. But the vast majority of people get destroyed by it. I feel that way about construction. I can imagine. I really do. Yeah. So getting tough, very important. I'm sure we will explore that more. However, in the tougher I got, the harder it was for my wife. And the only way she knew how to articulate the problem was I want my husband back. And that was very disorienting for me because I was proud of who I'd become. But she now I ultimately figure out what she was trying to communicate and I'll explain it in a second. But that was very weird.

Radiating Love (17:25)

The more proud I became of myself, the harder time she had in our marriage. And I was like, well, that's weird. And so she just kept saying, I want my husband back. I want my husband back. I want my husband back. And I'm like, what do you mean? Like I am your husband. This is me. Are you saying you want something other than who I have become? So anyway, I finally realized what she's looking for is for me to broadcast and receive love. Meaning I can, to use your language, I can hold a frame. But I don't have to be, I don't have to shift into an aggressive mode. Now I do and it feels good and I love it. But ultimately communication isn't what you intend. It's what's heard. And so. And also is how you make people feel. Yeah. So how do you navigate that moment where you go from, because the. Yeah, maybe I gave you the wrong impression. I think when I talk about my girls, I get a little fired up. You know, it means something to me. So that's. I think this thing is that the transition of energy is exactly what makes you uniquely interesting, right? You're part of the, for people that don't know, you're part of the andruite small group of people. But you have a very different vibe. But if you think of that sort of energy as a spectrum and you've got andruite, at least publicly, is only ever on aggression in your face. I want to be a sensational and inflammatory is humanly possible. And guilty or innocent, like he, he creates a frame that is not surprising at all, that he brings a lot of animosity in his direction. You are able to move between there are times where I'm going to be intense. And there are times where I'm going to be jovial and sweet and a gentleman. You've got a whole thing. Yeah. I'm sure we'll talk about it about what being a gentleman means and all that. But that moment of shifting your energy, I want to better understand what, what that means. Why like when you think about your daughters coming to you at 14, do you really want to bring the smoke or is it like, I think I think I might have shown you. I've shown you energy from passion. Anytime I get past, if you'd asked me a business question and I'd have been talking about my guys, I would have said the same thing. But I wouldn't handle the situation any different with my, more not much different with my daughter than I would an employee. I'd move any table out of the way. I sit with her or him, knee to knee and say, Hey, listen, I see this, this and this. And here's where I think that this is going to either hurt you or hinder your situation. Here's why I love you with all my heart. I'm not a yellow. I don't yell at my people. I certainly won't yell at my children would never yell at a woman. So what I'm saying is that yes, I'll get fired up on the subject. But if it came down to me and you talking about something that was really, really critical or me and my daughter or me and an employee or me and Andrew, I would be very much just present in that moment with them because I feel like if you start yelling at someone, they can no longer hear you. And so one thing I like to do is like just sit there, knee to knee and be in their space and just be present in the moment and just tell them how I'm feeling. I won't get much higher than this. In fact, I'll probably be a little lower than this. I don't I don't think people can hear you when you get with them or when you get overly aggressive. So I might have made that mistake earlier in my twenties, but generally now I'm not raising my voice. No, not at all.

Order of the Andu Singlet (20:49)

What's the role of aggression? And I asked that in the context of I really want to know what is young men listening to this? They need a target to aim at. They need to know what the ideal man looks like. Does aggression play a role in that? Only when it needs to. I believe the definition of a man is someone that can slit a throat and hold a baby in the same day. I really do. I think that you have to have the entire spectrum in all areas and I only find it necessary to be aggressive when you're protecting. Other than that, I think that you can love people through things and have conversations. I fired people that I told them I love them, but they got to go because I'd already set them down and say, Hey, look man, I brought you here. I believe in you. I really want you to make me right, but you're doing this, this and this and you can't do this on jobsite. Maybe it's substance or maybe it's something that's a safety issue. So please prove me right, man, because I believe in you. Pull them in a month later. Hey man, I love you, but this isn't going to work. We all work for this company and I have to protect the other families. You have to go hug them. Let them go. That's it. And so I don't see the, I don't see a particular need to get overly aggressive with anyone in any situation, even a physical altercation. I'm not a yellow. I'll just throw the first job cross. Like cause I, and I don't even want to, you know, but there, there's times for aggression, but this outward projection of aggression, I'm never going to be good at. I'm never going to be good at being an Android tape ever where we align on very, very many things and we have a lot of the same beliefs and he is absolutely wonderful in person and you'd be shocked. But I'll never be able to be him the way he is online, you know, in any way. And I, I could not even attempt to try, you know, it's just not in me. He has something that I don't in that way. It's like, as far as being an orator or being a person that, that talks in certain ways, I'll never be able to do that and don't wish to because I think that my place and our group and what we're trying to accomplish together, which is to help young men all over the world, there's a place for me in that. And it's not being Andrew, it's being Justin and that's all it can be anyway, so it doesn't matter. You're out there making a million decisions every single day and each pointless choice, you have to make like what color socks to wear or what jacket to put on is just another distraction from the game changing decisions that you should be focusing on. Save the brain power and the hassle of choosing what shoes you wear with Vessi. Vessi shoes are made with a patented, knit material that is both waterproof and breathable, keeping your feet cool in the summer and warm in the winter and dry no matter what. Check out all of Vessi's styles at vessi.com/impact and use code IMPACT for 15% off your order. Simplify your life with Vessi.

Ideal message to young men (23:39)

So what is the ideal that you want to see young men or old men for that matter, strive towards? I want young men to take accountability. I want them to understand the world, look at what it will take to create the competencies to give them choice. It's no different from before. I want young men to have choice. I say if I were to have a son and he were to be gay, I would be completely cool with that. My concern is, okay, if this is how you feel, that's fine. I love you with all my heart, need to need conversation, right? However, you're going to deal with this, this and this. Let me show you how I think you can best handle it and then put yourself in a position to have choice so you can live your life on your own terms. And that's all I want for any young man. Straight, gay, liberal, Republican, anything. I love people truly. I have it in me. It's going to come off of me. I can't help it. In fact, I would even go as far to say is my first year and a half online, I was just putting these positions where I couldn't show a side of me. That was actually in there. It's always these arguing, the part that really loves people, the part that's not really judging anybody, the part that wants to understand and help that part. I don't really have much hate or aggression in my heart, really. Only fight when I have to. I only defend and get aggressive when it's somebody else. And for the most part, people's words don't hurt me. I had a clip that went viral. It wasn't even my clip. It was a clip that went viral on a dating show, 25 million. And I was just getting hate because it was a Christian lady. And somebody asked me about it on one of my podcasts and they gave me a layup to shit on her and I just refused to do it. Because I like a lot of things that lady says and I think if I were to meet that woman outside of that context, we would get along just fine. And for that reason, I just don't see the need to hate on anybody. I want to create a situation in my life and on my platforms where I'm enough for myself and anybody that wants to follow me can and anybody that doesn't, that's okay. And I want people to live their life that way because I feel like there's a big push in the world to either guilt or shame men into doing things that society wants.

What society promotes (25:36)

And I don't think that's the right way to go at all. What does society want? Society want. I believe society wants men to be weak. I think they want to be fat. I think they want to be submissive to their wives and the community in the way that maybe they don't want to go. And I think that's why Andrew is so popular. I think there's a world full of, there's no, there's no superheroes anymore, man. I was sitting at Andrew's house the other day and this kid sent me a poster of me and Andrew on the wall. And I flipped over and I showed Andrew, I said, you know this used to be Rambo. And he goes, I know it's fucking crazy. So I believe that young men are disenfranchised with the direction that society is trying to take them, particularly in the West. And I think that they're fighting against it and maybe even over, maybe the red pill space is over correcting. I'm not crazy about being called a red pillar. I'm really not, bro. No, I get it. I'm really fucking not. But I do believe that there's times where the red pill space, when the world's dragging people in this direction and the red spill and the red pills taking them to an extreme, hopefully my hope, my genuine hope is that they fall in the middle and they can be a gentleman or they can be a father and they don't hate women. I certainly don't hate women at all. And that's one thing that I think the red pill space will probably like try to promote. Maybe there's a little peacocking. There's things that are wrong in the space. But I think on the average, all they're doing is counteracting what society is making them and they're hopefully falling in the middle, if they have a brain. You know what I mean? I heard Destiny say on your show that if you were to measure most red pill content followers, brains, that it would be small. I don't think that's true. I just think those young men want to answer and they need somebody strong to look up to them. And when they look up now, they're superheroes or homosexual or feminine or whatever. And they don't buy it. Why doesn't that work or why is that bad? For young men? Yep. I think that they're disenfranchised with being suppressed as males and that they want to grow up and they want to do these great things and they want to be strong and they want to be capable. And the same thing with Jordan Peterson. Jordan Peterson created the same movement in a much different way. And I just think that young men are tired of being asked to not be men. Okay. And that's hard to argue with, man.

Are men suppressed (28:15)

I can give you the art for it. Please. It is not one that I necessarily agree with. But so before I do that, what I really want to understand, every time somebody puts forth like this is how I think things should be or whatever. They put forth a hypothesis. So your hypothesis is that men are, they're not given a vision of what they could be. So I think that they have a true nature is what I think they have a true nature and it's getting suppressed. And they want to be something else. Okay. So men have a nature. What is that nature? That nature is to conquer, to get as much build up as much as they can become the greatest man they can build up what everything in their life. They want to, I think truly men want to be in abundance of resources. They want to have abundance of choice with women. They want to have children. They want to have people that look up to them. They want to feel appreciated. All of these things. And I think those things are by and largely getting suppressed. Okay. Even even in the school system. In what way does the school system suppress that? I don't feel like curriculums are made for little boys. I think they're made for mostly little, I think girls do better in school than boys. And I think that boys don't want to sit still. I think they want to go outside. I think they want to explore. I think they want to build things. And so when a little boy sits in a classroom and he's told to be quiet or to sit still for hours on end, he's not going to be successful. Even me myself, I failed sixth grade. I was able to 504 students. I got put on Ritalin. I didn't read all that well. And so that made me feel like I was failing from the jump. Well jokes on them. Like I substantially make more money than all of my teachers put together every year. It's just I think that the world, particularly little boys, have had enough of being suppressed and let down. And so that's why guys like Peterson and Tate do so well. Okay. Very interesting. I want to, I want to really put a point. Do I disagree with anything that you've said? Not yet. We may disagree in the particulars, but I do want to make sure that we answer the question. If so one thing I disagree with, I don't think there is a problem at all. If the superhero that's presented to kids is gay, that doesn't matter to me in the slightest. I think that people are tired of getting things pushed in their face. I don't personally carry that. This is why I think there is, there's something that marries these two ideas of the little mermaid being black, race-wapped and being given gay superheroes. I'm going to articulate what it feels like from this side of the table, but let me know where I go wrong. Because I love both groups, got none against any ethnic group or homosexual people. In fact, I have a super good reason why I like gay guys, but go ahead. Give it to me. Bro, imagine this. You're in a room. There's five guys in the room. One of those guys is gay and there's one girl that's pretty and everybody wants a girl. He's going to be the best dressed, sharpest. He's probably going to be in the best shape and he's going to take one with him. So it's me against three other bumps to try to get. I love a gay guy. Reason number two I love a gay guy is that if you get on his team, he is the best ally on the planet as a wingman. So I got nothing but love for him. Enjoy your month, homie. I've had a bunch of close friends that are really good to me too. I had a banker. That was my banker for 10 years at Chase Bank. Really helped me through some hard times, helped me move money, all kinds of things. We would go eat lunch and dinner and he'd hit on me. I'm like, "Bros, shut up." It was like this joke. I'm going to kick your ass and go, "Oh, please." It's just like guys don't really care. I don't think people care about race and gender or excuse me, sexual preference as much as the world says. I think that's the issue is that it gets pushed in people's face anyway when nobody really cares anymore. So the social engineering thing will set aside at least on that part.

What is happening with this generation? (32:11)

I do want to get a better understanding of, okay, you said society wants. Men, weak. Why would they want to make them weak, effeminate? Do you think it's like an conspiracy like that? So they'll comply. Okay. You want to take over a country, right? Who are you going to attack? You're going to attack the fighting age males or you're going to attack the women, the children and the old people and get them thinking that way and then create pressures on the men and just let it blow up from the inside out. Don't you think that's what's happening to America right now? No. What do you think's happening? So I have a very bad feeling that this is what happens when nobody's being chased by a lion. I think Jordan Peterson, so this is something I'm thinking through now. So everyone forgive me of six months from now. I have a totally different take. I watched Jordan Peterson go on his dad arc and I was really excited about it. It was amazing and I think he helped a lot of people. I know a lot of people hate him. I think he did unimaginably good things for a lot of young men. And when he came back from his illness, he was like super religious. I did not understand the hard right turn. I was like, what is going on? And looking back on when he was the Internet's dad, it was, he was really ahead of his time and he was saying things that people hadn't said before. And so you had guys coming out of the woodwork saying basically, thank you for holding me to a standard, which was what I was saying in the beginning. I think this is really a problem of nobody's being held to an exacting standard and the reason they're not being held to an exacting standard is there is no immediate consequence to not being held to an exacting standard because nobody's being chased by a lion. So you're even, you can't make ends meet like people can survive in Chicago homeless. What like you can survive a winter in Chicago because you get governmental support and all that. Now, that all of these things when you isolate them sound awesome. I would never want somebody who ends up being homeless, not taking care of. And yet as we get to the point where Thomas Jefferson had a quote, every generation must pay for freedom in blood and we don't do that anymore. And so we've now hit, if Eric Weinstein is right, there was a 70 year window of prosperity. That was amazing, but it's become deranged because I don't think intentionally with when nobody has World War, famine, great depression, like none of that stuff is hammering people that all of a sudden we have to and now I'll bring it back to Jordan Peterson. We've got young people who their final stage of development is a messianic complex. So you want to really go matter in the world. Man, I really get that. But what happens when God is dead? It's not an effective way. It's not an effective organizing principle in society anymore because on mass we just don't believe in it. It's a, it's folklore. It's a fairy tale. It's, it's not anything real. Nietzsche called this back whenever he was 11, I forget what year is. And that's really playing out now. So you have a world where things are easy. And so this is interesting. This is your idea of you want to give people choice and I get the way you mean it. So I'm going to use the same word, but I don't want to pretend I don't understand what you're talking about. But I think choice is the problem. I think that there are so few things that people have to do to stay alive that all of a sudden it's like, oh, I'm not in a battle here for the, the lives of our children. And so I don't have to be back to back with my wife where she also has a sword in her hand and I have a sword in mind. And look, I'm going to kill as many people as I can kill because that's my job. But hey, you better be ready if the shit hits the fan and you're the last line of defense. You better be swinging that sword. And so that's my vision of how men and women have worked historically. And yes, huge division of labor. All of that, we can go down that rabbit hole for now. Just that's how I think about it. They're back to back, bringing what they each bring to the table to ensure the survival into the next generation. So you have a world where you have everybody passing through the need to have their messianic moment where they can help save the world. But because there aren't those immediate and pending dooms, we start latching on two things, which are hugely important, but they don't have that kind of immediacy. And so now it becomes, oh God, you start going on like literal crusades, make whatever change you have to make, spend trillions of dollars, depopulate the earth for the climate. The climate is a problem. The climate must be addressed. But when it becomes your messianic moment, then I think the solutions become pathologized and are no longer in the realm when you want to make sure that gay people are celebrated and venerated as well as anybody else. But that's your messianic moment, then now all of a sudden it pushes out so far that it were to the point where we're not even protecting kids, we're saying that, okay, same thing. Yeah. So people are having enough of this. I'm not even worried about people having enough. What I'm saying is, is it pathological or not? Because if it isn't pathological and it is real progress, then people need to reorient. And so every movement needs a North Star. I think there is only one right North Star. I think it is absolute and I think it should apply to everybody. And that is, does this action increase human flourishing and decrease human suffering at the widest possible scale? If yes, do it, if no, don't do it. Now you get into complexities about, okay, how do we wait future lives versus contemporary lives? Anyway, we will rapidly get way too far off. So this is what I think is the problem. Yeah. Everyone needs their messiah moment. Like we need it. We need to matter. We need to feel like we have contributed. That's what I'm about. I appreciate it. 100%. We'll get to that because I've got a whole thing about appreciation. The number of times I've tried to get my wife to understand, all you have to do, you can manipulate me to the ends of the earth. I will do anything you want. Just fucking appreciate me. Just make me feel appreciated. Yes. Anyway, we'll get to that. But that ties into what you're talking about.

Most young men dont have a good outlook on their prospects (38:12)

Brother, 100%. So, but right now my, the, the thing I think is, is a problem. I do not think there's a master plan. I think we've made things so good. I agree. I think it's just fucked. Yeah. We've made things so good that now all of a sudden things are breaking down because we have these evolutionary drives to fight, to matter, to be messiahs. I don't mean that literally, but that impulse to really save people, to really contribute, to really help. But there's, there's no one to fight anymore. There's so anyway, it just, there's pathology on both sides. That's what I really want people to understand. So what do you think that you think it's just because we're in this whole good times, strong men, strong men, weak times, that whole thing? That, that is a, yes, it's, it's a very simple way. It's probably overly simplistic, but it certainly gets people in the right direction. But more important to me is, okay, then what do we do about it? So that's where I really want to understand like the ideal you've laid out of what you want men to strive towards, what young men should be doing. But as we actually then put that in a modern context, what does it look like?

The pillar traits of masculinity" (39:22)

What is your North Star off camera? You and I were talking, in fact, you brought it up earlier, that if you're striving for money and things, it won't work. But you should do it. And so how do you get people to understand that I have a lot of money and yet I'm still pursuing more money and unabashedly so. But I understand what money is. And so how do you help as, as the more nuanced of the tribe, the elder statesman of the red pill here? I wouldn't say that. I would. So whether you're the most nuanced, totally different question, but as the more nuanced, how do we bring this into the real world? How do we, how do we give young men a map out of a world where I think they have too many choices because they're not truly under threat and they're making the easy choice at every turn and in conjunction with things like chemical exposure, which I do think microplastics play a bigger role in all this. And I want to imagine in that sort of whole thing, how do we help them find a path out? Cool. So we have to start with the fact that it's going to be hard. It's going to be difficult. You have to accept that, right? From there, there are things that we're obviously constantly promoting that they avoid drugs, porn, you know, chasing women as much as as much attention as, as let's say me and Andrew and Tristan get for chasing women. I cannot tell you how much I disencourage young men to chase women. I often say give up your twenties, becoming the best man. You can possibly be women. I'll see that they'll jump in front of you. I don't believe in game. I've never taken a game course. I've never taught anybody how to pick up a girl. In fact, I would not even say I have a very good game. I think I got really good signals, but that's all predecessor from the work I did to become the best man I can be. Signals of what? Signals. So, Instagram, oh, he has a good lifestyle. He travels, muscles. He's done well for himself. Other men respect him. I think those are good signals. That's not... You would be a good mate. That would be a good mate. And I think that's very primal. If you look in the animal kingdom, there's many, many animals that do dances or create certain or have colors and all these other things. Why did Indians have feathers? So the women knew who could hunt and who couldn't. What tent they get in, right? I very nonapologetically feel that way. I do think that's very real and I think it's very primal.

Men'S Happiness And Fulfillment

What it takes to make a man happy (41:46)

Do I think it'll make you happy? I absolutely do not. What makes a young man happier or what has always made me happy is working on the man that I'm going to become. I often talk about this thing I have called the rocking chair test where I have this relationship with an older version of myself where he can no longer go out and live and work and he's just sitting on a rocking chair, smoking a scar, drinking coffee and he's looking back. And I keep this thing in my phone, a folder where I speak to him and I tell him, "Hey, I'm scared of this. I'm doing four mobile home parks right now. I'm in due diligence. Hey, I'm a little bit scared. What if they're lying to me on the plumbing or what if I have to do a modad system and I'm constantly talking to him because my goal is to make the older version of me happy while I'm trying to become the man that I envisioned to be in my life?" And to do that, you have to take care of things like fitness, money, style, understanding how to network, understanding how to create connection with another human. These are all the things that we're teaching people how to do. You're never going to go online and find that Andrew Tate Coors, how to text girls. You're never going to hear me talking about how to text girls. Text girls like this do this are most importantly how to manipulate girls. One thing that I cannot stand seeing is people teaching young men how to nag women. Oh, you're kind of okay. Where's Lane? Just be the best man you can be. Because if you can become that man, you now have the opportunity to be able to act like a gentleman and not have to do things to manipulate other people. You're just that guy. And I think that we're trying to build young men that are that guy, even if it's not a Tate status, even if it's not a fresh or a Myron status or a destiny status, maybe they're just a person that lives in a small town, has respect for people in the community, makes a couple hundred grand a year, which is a lot. And they live a full fulfilled life where they can have all the things that they wanted and they worked hard to get it. So they really appreciate it. I don't believe in giving people compliments on something they didn't work hard for. If it's just something natural because it won't mean anything to you. And so I feel the same way for young men. If they have to work for it, they understand life's going to be hard. They go through the struggles just like you went through the struggles in your business to build your businesses. It wouldn't be as sweet if you didn't have the pain. And so I think what we need to do is tell young men that it's going to be painful. It's going to hurt. You're going to get hit in the face. You're going to get broken. You might go bankrupt. But if you just keep fighting, you're going to be really proud of the man you become. And I don't think there's anything other than that that a young man needs to know. Okay. So what are the areas that you want to see that manifest in their life? So their physical body, I think is number one, even more than money, particularly when you're young and your body is developing. I think your physical body is a big thing. You're going to have to communicate with other people and not getting overly aggressive. I think that's really, really important. Understanding finances is a really, really big thing that I think most people are under educated in, particularly in the schools. If they could just understand how money works, they could have a better relationship with it, not be scared of it, be able to look at it, be able to actually use it as a tool. Because that's all money is, right? It's a tool, an opportunity for freedom. And then understanding female nature, I think is very important. And there's a big divider for me between understanding female nature and learning game. Because I in no way ever want to make a young man think he needs to learn how to get women. He needs to be that guy and absorb the attention. And then from there, he has the proper masculine frame to retain the woman and have her respect him. And that's it.

How to absorb attention (45:15)

Okay. So what does absorb the attention mean? Yeah. You're doing everything right. Let's say you're doing fitness, money, style. You're obviously respected in your space or your industry. You're a person that garners respect. I believe that women see that. And they're like, that's a good horse to bet on. And then you're going to get attention from women. And then you have abundance of choice of women. Notice I didn't say sleep with a bunch of women. A lot of people in Red Hill space will be like, oh, sleep with this many girls. Women should experience different dynamics with women after they slept with them. But I don't have the set number in my mind. I just would like to see them have that experience. I think that they'll need that in the future. Of course. Why? Why? I do think that when you sleep with a young woman that you were going to get a different response out of some women than others, some women will never talk to you again. They'll be on a yacht tomorrow, say Miami, right? Some girls. That means something too. And I think a young man needs to see that because ideally if I were to help him make his decision, he would put much more of a time and energy investment in the young woman that wants to have a family and wants to not sleep with a bunch of people. I don't think that promiscuity for women is a good thing at all. I don't think it's good for them. And is it a double standard? Yeah, I do think it's a double standard. Is it fair? No, sir, I don't. I don't think it's fair. Is it a double standard brought to you by evolution or is it a double standard brought to you by evolution? I think it's by evolution. 100%. I think that so you I believe that men are wired to try to sleep with as many women as possible. And if they do that, they will have more what offspring? Yes. So is there what's your north star? Is it fulfillment? It's choice. My north star is always going to be choice choice. Look, who am I to tell? Now I will tell good. Who am I to tell a young man what to do with his life? I can tell him nobody. Exactly. Hey, here's how the world works. Here's what it's going to take for you to put yourself in a position of choice. And then once you get the choice, I think you should be a good person. I think you should be kind to people. I think you should always tell the truth and be honest and be able to communicate with them. Okay. I can't tell you whether to have two wives or 50 girlfriends or one wife or to live in a monastery. Yes, but you give a lot of advice. And I think the reason you give advice is you know that some steps make sense and other steps don't. But I really have a hard time believing you actually optimize that you actually want people to optimize for choice. So I'll ask a clarifying question and we'll know. So if somebody's life had more choices, but they ended up in screaming agony, would you still say that they were better off because they have more choices? No.

Choice without pain or change creates pain. (48:03)

Okay. And that's a great point. So we're not our north star isn't choices. You just think choices is a step along a road to something else. What is that something else? I'm going back to choice, man. Well, okay. So because some people are going to be genuine, no matter what, but you know that you don't want somebody to end up in a scenario where they have all the choices in the world, but they're in screaming pain. Sure. Right. So if choice led to pain in their life, you'd say, oh, it's actually better to reduce choice. Right? I would. But I think you're a north star then. I believe that if you're taking care of your situation, let's say you're in a bad place and you're creating pain for yourself, you should have the choice to change your atmosphere. Love that. I'm a very big believer in atmosphere. Like let's say that I was. What do you get from changing your atmosphere? You put yourself in a different place. Have you not gone from one place to another and felt completely different? I have. So I want to be very clear. So we don't argue about something stupid. I agree that choice is incredibly valuable. And the way I feel about choice, exactly the way I feel about money, that you want as much choice as you can get, but it isn't nothing. So having choice will not make you feel good about yourself. So if you make wise choices, then you may end up, no, no, no, I think this is really important. And this is where I think people end up optimizing for let's take money. It's far easier to people will get it when I say money. Like, if you're optimizing your life for money, we both know Fool's errand. Even if you get it, you're going to end up being like, oh, I didn't want this. So or it did not give me the thing I thought it was going to give me. So my favorite story to tell people about money is, oh, the way that I got rich was selling a piece of my company. So you go from normal bank account to commas and zeros everywhere, literally in an instant. Refresh in your bank and boom, it's there. And it was wonderful. Now I had already learned my lesson about money, but the hilarious thing was when it hit and I had all the money suddenly, I was like, oh, wow, it's interesting. I still have all the same insecurities that I had 90 seconds ago. So money is not going to change how you feel about yourself, but how you feel about yourself is everything. And so what the the only thing that I think is inarguable and I'm very open. Look, I have been wrong before. I've been confident and wrong before. So it is very possible. I am confident and wrong right now, but I don't think so. I think the only thing that is going to be universal is if you optimize to increase human flourishing, so every choice that you get, because choice is a moral, you could have a choice. I could kill that person and get away with it. Okay, that's an additional choice. I don't advise it because evolution has given us minds in a certain way. And unless you're a sociopath, I think it's really going to mess with you to kill somebody for no reason whatsoever or to kill something and get what was there. Oh, God. So I would say the only way to think about it is you're optimizing for human flourishing and choice is one of the things that will help you be able to navigate those paths well, but you can have choice and make all of the wrong ones and end up in a position where yes, you can now back out of it and thank God. So we're grateful that you have choice, but you by just pursuing.

The one thing Tom thinks will always be true. (51:16)

There's a word in all of these pillars on the way to choice and this discipline that it takes discipline to go to the gym. It takes discipline to get up and go to work again after you've been punched in the face. It takes discipline to show up. It might even take discipline in a meeting for you to hold your tongue. And so choice plus discipline is going to be ideal, but it's ultimately choice. And if you have the discipline to get yourself out of a bad position or to not make bad decisions, then that choice can never hurt you. Would you add something to choice and discipline? Is there a better North Star?

Is there a better northstar? (51:53)

Because I'm here to learn too. I don't know everything. Yeah. I know I'm sitting in front of a smart guy, Tom. I mean, spend a lot of time thinking about that. So I look, we both know that you have to run everything against real life. And so I have no interest in having philosophies that when deployed are useless. So the way that I see it is, you have put your finger on something incredibly important. This is why I want to make sure we're not arguing about like, right, what my wife and I call arguing about the T versus the real thing. So the biggest fight my wife and I ever got into was over a cup of tea and about two hours into a screaming match, I realized there's no way this is about the tea. There is just no way. And so finally I was just, I was like, what are we really arguing about here? So you have laid out some things on the table and I want to make sure you hear and that everybody listening here is, I think choice is a good thing. It's very powerful. I want to make sure that people understand that there are going to be a few things in their life that will be incredibly important to have. Now I would say without discipline, you will never have choice. Exactly. So discipline, hugely important, already more important than choice because discipline is the foundational thing. Of choice of every pillar to get choice. Yeah, it will give you many things including choice. So you have discipline, which is necessary, but not sufficient for choice. So discipline, we have choice, choice is amazing, but those are both things that we leverage in my opinion to get to a neurochemical state. Now it is very important to understand one thing about me, that I am a physicalist. I believe everything comes down to your brain. I don't think there's anything spiritual. I don't think you have a soul. I think if I drive a three foot tamping rod through your head, it will change you forever. True story, look them up. His name is Phineas Gage. And it's just, that just is. And so even if this is all a simulation, which anybody that follows me knows, yeah, it really might be, the simulation works in a certain way. And so there is still cause and effect within the simulation. So I believe that we are entirely tied to our biology and that you have nothing without biology, which is why I was saying, I think I'm a hyper responder to oxytocin, a vasopressin, which is why it's easy for me to have a 21 year marriage. Other people may struggle and maybe they're just dopamine freaks and so they have to fuck everything that moves because it's the only thing that gives them that dopamine rush.

What really leads to fulfillment? (54:05)

So it's like, no thyself. I'm not even passing judgment. I don't care. I get it. I'm aiming towards one thing. Human flourishing. That's it. Now, I think that evolution has just made it true that human flourishing is their outliers. Everything's a bell curve, but there's a big, like when we talk about the center, that center is follows a recipe that I will say is fulfillment and that recipe is very simple. You must, every word I'm going to say is non negotiable. You must work hard to garner a set of skills that allow you to serve not only yourself but other people in a way that you find exciting. And if you do that and you are making progress towards getting better at helping people at something that you're excited about and you're serving yourself as well as others, you will, even in moments of grief, you will have fulfillment. You will always have happiness that's super transient and nobody is happy in the middle of grief, but you can be fulfilled in the middle of grief. And the reason that that recipe to me is just it is non negotiable is because nature had to make sure that as it cobbled you together from a bunch of competing cells that you would ultimately stay alive long enough to have kids that have kids. That's it. That's all nature is trying to do.

Selection And Society'S Evolution

Where does choice rank? (55:28)

And since nature only has two levers, pleasure and pain, it starts yanking the fuck out of those two levers to make sure that you do all the behaviors that you need to do in order to have kids that have kids. So don't you feel like that's our basic desire to have the choice to be able to do the things that you just said? I don't even traditionally find it to be different. The only issue I have is I think if you optimize as choice as the end product, it will lead to sub optimal outcomes. It doesn't necessarily lead to fulfillment. And do you think that the proper answer is to optimize your body and your mind in it? I think you're optimizing your biology. Right. So you, so for me, everything can work back from fulfillment. So you have a, you have algorithms running in your mind. Right. And those algorithms make you value certain things. And one of them is for whatever reason, and I'm guessing there's just probably some relatively self-evident things around being strong or capable or whatever. Healthy. Maybe it's that simple. That when you get in shape, and guys, I will say this for you for sure, as you get strong and look aesthetically pleasing, you will feel awesome about yourself. And if I lost everything tomorrow and my wife, let's say, left me step one, get ridiculously jacked. It just, I know that the biggest breakthrough in business for me was changing my physique. I'm much smaller than I always say that. I completely agree with you. 100%. Proceed. So, but that's your mind's better. Everything. For sure. It's all algorithm running. It just is. There's no way to escape it. It also, I believe that we put energies off. What does that mean? So you know how like the body's like an electrical system. I'm sure you know this, right? Or do you disagree? I don't disagree, but now you're treading on where- Listen, this is not my- Woohoo. This is not my subject, but I do believe that when you walk in a room and you're in your confident and you stand tall and you believe in yourself that that energy does come off of you. Yes. I don't, I don't know that it matters. I totally agree that we send signals and I totally agree the other person can read those signals. Whether they're energetic or just the brain, you know, how to read other people. Yeah, whatever it is, yeah. Irrelevant. Primer or whatever. So do you think that choice falls second to optimizing? I never thought about where choice specifically ranks. All I know is you're going to make choices, so good to have them, in order to get to the point where you can optimize yourself. Now for instance, if you were to strip away freedom, then you can't maneuver through your life to figure out the path that actually allows you the neurochemical state that I'm trying to help people get to, which is fulfillment. So it is a necessary but not sufficient piece of the puzzle.

Necessary but not sufficient (58:17)

I believe that most all of humans, and I mean like a high, high percentage, 90 something percentile are good people, good people, like naturally. I think things happen to them in life where they get desperate and they do things that would reclassify them as bad, but they were actually just desperate. That said, I believe that most people would love nothing more than to put themselves in a position just like you said. All of our pillars are about the same till we get to the end, but I believe that most people are good people. So most people would choose to do fulfilling things. And I'll use me for an example. This is all very, very new to me. Two years ago, nobody knew who I was. I was just putting middle buildings up all over America and trying to buy real estate. I had mud on my hands, driving fork lifts. Like I, you know, it was construction. But I finally got the business to a place after over a decade, 13 years, where I have a true management team and staff, all this other stuff. I could have done anything. This is by far the most fulfilling work I've ever done. And I don't think I'm particularly special for doing it. I think most people have given the opportunity to give back and feel like they're helping other people on a large scale would absolutely take that opportunity, regardless of whether it made their status go up or anything like that. I think they would do it. I really, really do. Most people don't have the discipline to work hard enough to put themselves in a position of choice to actually get that fulfillment done. I don't think we're far off outside the biochemistry stuff. About how to get to fulfillment. Probably not. So my concern is I think, do I think people are good? No. I don't think people are default anything. I think people are default survival machines and evolution has pleasure and pain and algorithms that it's honed over time that make us a very cooperative loving species. And that is awesome. And I love people and I think that they're amazing. But I think that Solzhenitsyn was right when he said the line between good and evil runs through the heart of every man. I think that is. I agree. I agree with that. So we are capable of both good and evil. That's my true stance. Now, I think that people are also easily confused, myself included by the way. I'm like, I had to, which just said, I'm sorry, I don't mean to cut you off, but like, you're right. It's this divide between good and evil, right? And a young man that, let's say he goes on the internet and he sees a bunch of guys saying, work out, work your hardest, be honest, build a team of brothers, you know, do everything that you're supposed to do in life. I think more often than not, he finds himself on the side of choice and he chooses to be good instead of evil. I do think, I do think by and largely, I don't even think it's closest. So they're not beautiful. If you would have said good, they just know they're not default. Good. Good choice. But if they, but if they do these things that we're, we're all trying to preach, you included. I've heard, I've heard you say plenty of the things that I'd say. I don't think I don't think there's a whole lot of new information out there about how to live a good life. It's if they take the initiative and have the discipline to build these pillars in their life, if they all got to a position where they had choice, let's say you took a thousand men that don't did all of those things that you did that maybe I did, that maybe some of these other people had done, I think they would choose the side of doing good things more than they would do evil just naturally because because don't we run impacts, don't we want to be a part of the group as humans? Yes. Right. I'm not sure this will be fruitful, but it'll be fun. So let's go down this road. Okay. So one, I'm going to say something that I think he'll agree with so hard, you're going to get a leg cramp, okay, which is that if you want to, if you have somebody that just won't make change, their life is trash in every way possible and you want to see them make change, you kidnap them, you take them to a deserted island and you stock that deserted island with people that they really respect that will make huge demands of them and they either conform to that group and do the things to earn that group's respect or they remain in outcast, they will conform to the group and they will suddenly do all the things you would need to do to earn those people's respect. Their life will turn around instantaneously. Cramp installed.

Humans are good at otherhood (01:02:33)

Yep. So whenever, whenever somebody says, oh my God, I've got a 15 year old and I just cannot reach them. What do I do? I'm like, I'll tell you what to work. You're not going to do it. So that, that's just the brotherhood. Right. It's going to work and it's going to work 100% of the time. Now the problem becomes that humans are very good, very good at othering other people and hey, evolution is just trying to keep you alive long enough to have kids that have kids. Now if we want to get real ugly for a second and hey, why not? This is what I think is true. I think for a very long time what ended up happening and this is why we are going to talk about polygyny at some point and here is why I'm super tense about, I think polygyny is a response to an economic situation where you end up getting men that are hyper successful. You have no middle class and women really are better off going with the, you know, 0.1% of men or whatever and being like the seventh wife, it really is better. It's a wiser strategy when you're trying to make sure that your kids are. I've argued the point. Proceed. Yep. So I get that. Now the catch becomes that for a long time what we would do when we had times of surplus men as they call them. So you've got all these guys that can't get laid. No one's going to like to hear it said like that but that's the truth. And when young men can't get laid they really become a problem. And so you would put them together into warring tribes. Let's call them Vikings and you set them about warring and the whole point of war is to bright kidnap women. And look, it's ugly, it's nasty. And that's why I say, like internally their tribe would be like, oh my God, they're the most moral, just incredible people. And then I'd be looking at them going, they have slaves. They just killed that woman's husband and took her back. That's horrendous. But their group would say they're amazing. So this is one where again, I want to remind myself, everybody else can ignore me, but I'm going to remind myself the line between good and evil runs through my heart. And if I am not constantly looking up at that North Star, what will accidentally become my North Star is everything good for me. And the problem is that if that doesn't reach a check somewhere, now you're going to have a problem. Do you think those Vikings were bad people? Oh my God. Thank you for asking me a question that I've not thought through. I think they did very bad things. I do not want future generations judging me. I only want people in my current moment judging me. Yes, I'm speaking to all the people tearing down the past right now. I don't think that's a wise or fair move. So I do not want to pass judgment from here, but I would not act like they act. I don't think you had a choice. Yeah, probably. That's what I'm saying. I don't want to judge them. Because back then, you wouldn't have a choice. Yeah, totally get it, which is why. Very say that again. Because for people that don't know what you mean by that, I think that's a very important point. Nature is metal, for sure. You follow that Instagram page? I do. Yeah, bro, it's badass. My boy. Narlie. So gnarly. Bro, but it's a reality check. I don't like those videos, but I'll watch that video on that channel and be like, this is what the world is. And you can get mad or play ball. You know, and another thing that I... What's the gnarliest nature is metal post you've seen, bro? I saw this one of these two dogs. They got caught on this queen on the side of like a pond and there's a crocodile at the bottom. And they're just scrambling trying to get up and he's just waiting. They didn't make it, bro. They slid down and they're just fighting to not slide down. Got him. Yep. Yep. Yeah. But just like the Vikings, that crocodile is in a position to survival. And I think the humans are ultimately trying to live their life at the highest level of survival in all realms. I don't think every man is trying to do that. I don't particularly think the Vikings were bad people. I think that they were back was against the wall and they had no options. And so they did it by force. Can I give you a slight variation on that theme?

Darwin would be proud of our societal degradation. (01:06:49)

Procea. Nature is metal. The only rule of nature, and we are animals, this is where if people are religious, they are not going to understand my take, but we are animals that crawled out of the primordial ooze and used intelligence as a way to become the most dominant predator the world has ever seen. But ultimately, the only rule of nature is the weak will do as the strong will do as they will and the weak will suffer as they must. And that's it. Do you not think that's Darwinism? You could put that word to it. Sure. I just think that that's it. I think it just you're going to survive or you're going to die. I have things you're trying to eat you and you're trying to eat things and if you're good enough to kill them, then you get to and if they're good enough to kill you, then they get to. Right. I say all the time, you know, like I love my country very much. I'm very patient. Like I love America, especially because I was born in the 80s. I truly believe that America is a bully. But if America was not bullying, we would be getting bullied by Russia or China. And I think that if China could take us over today, they would do it. And I think even in 2020, 2023, that's still a real thing. Nature is still metal right now. And like back to you, I know you're going to bring a religion and eat later. Non popular take, but in a lot of ways that's Darwinism too. Not fair. I'm not saying I like it. I'm not even saying I promote it. But in a lot of ways, it is. You yourself said that they could be the seventh wife, but probably would live a better life. I don't love that. I don't love that statement. I don't think it's wrong though. So what do we do? What would make it something that you would voluntarily opt out of? If they could get rid of social media and create scenarios where the temptation was not in everybody's face, I think that would be a really good start. I don't have a direct answer on how to voluntarily opt out because I understand what's in me and understand what's in most men. But that's not uncontrollable. So this is. Yeah, I think not being in your face is a big deal. So Jay Waller, you have freakish amount of discipline. You know you could set it aside if you wanted to and be faithful. I'll just speak for my own experience. I have a very high sex drive and I'm sure at times my wife feels that she suffers as a result. But that doesn't mean that I assess the situation and go, "Look, I'm rich and I have a high sex drive." So I could go to my wife and say, "Hey, look, I couldn't now because she's too successful on her own right." But back in the day, "Hey, this is the way that it's going to be." And she, I think, is very straightforward to say would have been like, "Get the fuck out of here." But let's just pretend that she rolled with it. I could go and do that. And I didn't. And I've heard you say a thousand times, "Hey, if guys don't want it, I'm not promoting this. If guys don't want to do it, I totally get it and you're not weak, you have been very emotionally generous." So all I'm trying to figure out, not again, I don't pass a moral judgment on it. I have a look at it from a societal lens where I'm like, "Look, you're making hay while the sun shines. You find yourself in a situation where you can do this. But when you're pushed on this, you always give what I think is the worst argument ever from Jay Waller. I think knowing your own philosophy, I could give a better answer for why you do it. All right. Then what is my philosophy and then what do you think is better? Okay. So your philosophy is the philosophy of choice. I have given myself all these options. I have these options. I really can give these women a better life. It is a very small price to pay for them to say, "Hey, you're going to be number two or number three." And you're probably not going to go a lot deeper than that, I don't think. And so look, I'm going to make your life amazing and you're going to be way better off with me. And by the way, these are your words. It's not my life view. Pro-C, bro. You can't hurt my feelings. No, no, no. I'm not worried about hurting your feelings. I'm talking to the audience. I want to make sure they understand. I'm representing your view. But they can certainly be with another guy, but the odds of him cheating on them and just lying about it are very, very high. Very high. Whereas you are going to be upfront. You're going to tell them, "This is the way that it is." I really hope that you want to be a part of this because I would really love to share this with you. If you don't want to be a part of this, I totally understand. Yes? Yes, but you are leaving one thing out and I've actually left this out too. Most of these women are bi. Okay. And I am screening for that. Yes. So there is a level of Bonnie and Clyde accompanying it. It's a companionship helping find other women to be completely clear. Okay, so can I say it in another way? You guys are sharing a sexual experience together. It's a shared thing. Yep. Love it the most. That I have no beef with. Right. And where I was going is that the argument that you always give publicly, which what you just said is maybe a different orientation that's better, but for me anyway, is that I can't control these urges. And so people always feel like this cognitive dissonance. Yeah. Here's this hyper discipline guys, did all this shit and she metal and I. I know. And I should have, you know what, when I was asked about discipline on that other podcast, I was so, one thing I hate more than anything in the world is a judgmental Christian. I grew up in the South. I could not hear her because all I saw or all I could hear was her wagging her little Christian finger at me knowing damn good and well she didn't get married until she was in her 30s, which means more than likely she had sex before marriage as well. Like we're both sinners and I should have. Why do you care? Why do you care for Christian judges? Usually I grew up in it.

Southern children imparted with Baptist guilt. (01:12:58)

I grew up in it. So do you still feel lingering judgment from Christians from yourself? No, no, I feel completely free. That's why I'll come on a podcast and talk about it. I don't like hypocrites. One thing in this world, I hate the most is hypocrisy. And it's been my experience with Christians particularly growing up in South Louisiana that they'll tell you one thing and do another. And then if they want something done, they will pick the Bible verse that fits the situation and hit you upside the hip with it. It I despise it. I truly do. And I think a lot of Christians despise it. The Christians that just want to go to church and want to have the relationship with God and their faith and they have other people judging them from this God complex that they have because they think they've read the scripture more than the next person or they think they are better in some way than the next person. So they cast stones down and they use the Bible as a sword to do it.

Polygamy (01:13:41)

I can't stand it. Truly. The best Christians I know are Christian. I know they're Christian and they don't talk about it much. It just comes off of them. They have that Holy Spirit, that love in their heart, whatever that is that they have. And I really respect Christians that are that way. It's the ones that are judgmental and that want to make a scene about them being holier than thou or their own some kind of religious pedestal that you're not. Those people can get fucked. That said, I should have responded. I have a ton of sexual discipline. You could put any of my friends, girl, butt naked in my bed for a week and I can tell you I would not touch her. I also turned down quite a bit of married women on social media. It discussed the shit out of me. Also a lot of times Christians with their Jesus background on their Facebook timeline and then sliding in my DMs. I'm very aware of it. I have a hyper interesting view of her programee on my social media. Because... Tell people that don't know what's hypergamy. Hypergamy is when a woman is looking out into the world. This is my definition. I don't have Webster's memorized. When a woman is looking out into the world and looking for other partners that she could possibly be with and putting out signals to see if she can what they call monkey branch over to that next partner. So they have a foot in the boat and a foot out in hopes that they can jump on the other boat. So... And typically hypergamy is tied to the idea of over or up. So they're dating laterally. It's either over or up and most often times it's up. And again I think that social media wrecks families for this reason. Because back in the 80s let's say you might see a beautiful woman or you might see a really handsome man as a woman. You saw him one time in a parking lot. He might live in that town with you and you might not see him for another 20 years. That's not in your face. When I bought that Lamborghini the other day it went on my Facebook. Everybody's wife that is friends with me on Facebook saw that I bought a Lamborghini. I'm not super excited about that. It's not even the reason I posted it. But hypergamy is generally happening when all these other options are out there and that woman says okay well that is a better mate choice for me from a primal perspective. And so they make that attempt to make that move. And you see it quite a bit. Especially with social media. It's interesting. So I look at from a social media perspective and again tying this back into the whole thing that got me thinking about this is so one I do view it very differently if you're talking about my wife, girlfriend, whatever status. We like to share this kind of sexual experience. No beef. To be honest I don't have a beef with any of it. People should live whatever life they want. What I worry about is that just like the I don't think the damage is being created by social media per se. I think that what ends up happening is people have no demands are being made of them. We don't have a sense of what is the ideal. We have like flipped the idea of oh if you have an ideal your ideal would be that I think that women should have a low body count to use the common phrase now. They should have a low body count. So I disagree with your social media. You think that social media. I think social media wrecks it. I'll tell you why. And I'm not objectifying women but let's say everybody knows the scale of one to ten. Right? A man. Attractiveness. A man will sleep with a substantially less attractive woman just to do it. And now that woman thinks that she deserves that level of man. So the guy that's really in that girl's league she's saying oh I slept with that guy. And after the relationship happened she settles and then she's looking around still for other men. I think that if anybody gets married you get off shows from me there have one together. Truly. Interesting. I do. That strikes me as an. Like insecure right? Not insecure. Yeah. Untrusting. It feels like you feel that people are trapped by their nature and that they cannot be trusted with their impulse. Not so much. I don't think you should put your partner in that position. Like I trust the lock on my F one 50. I don't put it in a bad neighborhood. So why put her in that position of temptation? Interesting. Okay. So I see that my experiences led me to see that very differently. But maybe I am from a charmed time. I will not deny that there are when I hear so I have employees that are much much younger than me. And I see them having to deal with hinge and you know things like that. And I'm like wow this really is very different. And certainly the apps create pathology around a what I think is the broader problem. So I think that what we have is the confluence of everything that allows people to want it all and want it now and nobody checks them. And so the thing I think we have is again there's no lions and so since nobody is being eaten alive and there's no just like hey you can't act like that moron you're going to get eaten. So get your ass inside. There's no being outside after dark. Why? Because you'll be eaten. Right. So once all that goes away it's like well why can't I do this? Why can't I do this? And so anyone micro thing does not seem like a problem. But then all of a sudden we have strayed so far from the evolutionary truth of the algorithms running in our mind which will lead to fulfillment that now all of a sudden I don't have a beef with how anybody lives their life but I see people living their lives in a way that does not lead to fulfillment. So I'm just like hey from my vantage point you have too many choices and you're making a lot of dumb ones because you're not acknowledging that running in your brain are evolutionarily planted algorithms that demand you behave in a certain way. And the second you deviate from that it won't feel good in and of itself. It does not matter what the world tells you. The world can celebrate you all day long for being morbidly obese and you go girl and whatever I promise running in your mind is an algorithm. It's like we have a problem Houston we have a problem because your body is not optimized to carry fat like that it's not. So now you're just in a horrendous place fat is kicking off hormones like crazy your joints are deteriorating the whole nine like it is just a cascade of problems. So I don't care if society's like this is amazing the algorithms in your brain will tell you.

Gender Dynamics And Parenting

Name Calling & Playing Offense (01:20:31)

I agree with everything you just said and I'd also argue that long before they even get a chance of fulfillment they're already suffering. What percentage of men are going without sex large they're suffering they're suffering anyway. They're making these bad decisions because they have too much choice right they got the video games and the porn and the sex dolls and all these different things they can do I would argue that they are already suffering. Yeah. Yeah. Now the only thing saving us from these young the sexless young men going out and shooting up a whole bunch of stuff is that they have these whole in cell communities where they kind of have like their own little brotherhood and this weird little thing on the side and the fact that HD porn is like think about porn like this like I'm not a advocate for porn but the one thing porn did do is show the average man what a really beautiful woman looks like naked that they would have never seen otherwise and now they're stuck to that and they're in this whole in cell world and they're sitting in video game chairs and they're looking I think they're already paying for it and they just don't know it and I think the thing that stopping them from being very violent is that they some have some kind of camaraderie because now the number of men that don't get attention from women that don't have a social life that are overweight that don't really go outside is becoming so large that they're finding friendship in it somehow and I do think that's sad and I think it's multiplying.

Discipline (01:21:48)

Okay I don't know that we've wrapped this topic up sufficiently but I do want to know we're actually talking about discipline. Wow is this where this all branch? Branched all from discipline and I have plenty of sexual discipline. Fascinating yes yes that wow. I have plenty in a long journey. Okay so if you have plenty of sexual discipline as you rethink your answer where do you land on is it is it just what the way that I re-encapsulated it this is a fun thing look I just in that moment felt really judged by this. No I didn't feel judged at all I just directly don't like hypocritical Christians. I'm not confused about my answer. I have plenty of self-discipline. Okay if I remember right her question which is I'll ask the same question sincerely but from a very different angle I worry that we have gotten to the point where polygyny is becoming more common because we've hollowed out the middle class effectively. We have allowed and/or encouraged men to be weak and because we don't give them an I men or women an ideal to strive towards it creates harmony between the sexes we get this sort of very distorted bizarre world that we're living in now which has a lot of negative knock on effects. One of them is that men at the top are going to get all the women. That's right. Yeah so is it really it seems to me more that you do it because you can not because you can't stop yourself. I do because I enjoy it. A lot of people talk about like oh well you must need the validation. No I don't. You keep saying you have said in interviews I'd pay 10 million dollars to not have these urges. Yeah no I think I'd make more money. I think I'd make more money maybe. But is the money at this point? I'm really when I say that I'm really trying to make a point. I do it because I enjoy it. What's the point? The point is there was a time in my life where I really struggled with it. And I thought I was broken. Yeah I no longer feel that way. I was trying to find ways to stop myself from feeling that way. You know what I felt like? I felt like I was going to have to come out of the closet. I swear to God like I make this joke all the time. It's much easier for gay men than straight men that want to have a lot of sex because gay men is just accepted. I wanted to come out of the closet to everybody to the world and be like hey guys listen. I really like women and I'm going to sleep with a bunch of them. And I know you're going to hate me for it and that's one of my biggest fears because I felt like I was going to get kicked out of the group. Especially in South Louisiana. I had this girlfriend in college. She was getting ready for Miss America. She won Miss Louisiana. I was having these feelings and I was trying to fight them. And I remember going to church and I'll pray and pray God please don't let me feel this way. Please please please I'm making a mistake. But man that volleyball team was looking at me hard man. And that's what I wanted to do. It's really what I wanted to do. And I didn't feel insecure. I didn't need to validate anything. I mean it's like literally what I wanted to do. It's like when I drink. I don't drink because I'm sad. I drink because I want to have a good time with my friends. And women have really been the same way. Women have been very good to me in my life. I've had great relationships with them. I like them as people. I don't particularly even like to sleep with a woman that I can't get along with or connect on some emotional intellectual level. I'd say somewhere around 28 that happened. I enjoy it. I like it. They're beautiful. They add to life. They are really literally the cherry on top of life. They're just wonderful people. I love women. And I'm not sorry about that in any way. And I don't think I'm alone in feeling this way. But I think I'm one of very few men in the world that actually say it out loud and be judged for it and be patronized for it. And I don't care. You know because I know that there's a bunch of men out there that have a bunch of love in their heart.

Raising kids (01:25:31)

That want to love somebody. That really just have affinity for women. And it doesn't I can only love one woman at one time. I love the mother of my children more than anything on this fucking planet. I die for her. I really do. As long as you feel like that. I'd also appreciate if she bring home a bond. And she's down. So for me, I don't care what other people say about that. Because I have choice in my life. And that's why I always go back to choice. Because I trust myself to do the right things with my choice. I'm completely honest. I'm loving. I'm caring. I'll rub her back when she's pregnant. You know like take care of her in every way. Take care of my kids in every way. I would never stab a friend in a back when it comes to a woman. I have plenty of discipline on the subject. And so I'm a complete piece about it. You can reboot your life, your health, even your career, anything you want. All you need is discipline. I can teach you the tactics that I learned while growing a billion-dollar business that will allow you to see your goals through. Whether you want better health, stronger relationships, a more successful career, any of that is possible with the mindset and business programs and impact theory university. Join the thousands of students who have already accomplished amazing things. Tap now for a free trial and get started today. What would you do if she said, "Hey look, I'm all for it. When we're together and we can share this experience." But I would very much not want you to do it without me. Would you adhere to that? No. No. But I also think as Tom goes and I get older, it's probably just going to chill out. It's just going to fizzle. And do you see yourself being with her forever? Yeah. I'll take care of her the rest of her life. She has my kids. But do you see yourself being with her? Yeah. Yeah. We're tight. We're best friends. We have conversations about this. And do you like the idea of being, you're not going to use the word "married"? I understand that. But permanently parabonded. I don't know what the normal... As long as you're in love, man, it's a beautiful thing. Love's the real, bro. Yes. Like, love's real. She has the power to hurt me. If she left me, it would hurt. I would feel it. I would be in deep pain. It wouldn't change my stance. I'd hold strong. But it would be very painful. I always say, I'd much rather get my ass with than have my heart broke. Because it affects the business, it affects everything. But no, I have no intentions ever doing anything but taking care of that woman. And honestly, it's one of the driving factors in my life as far as work. I quite, quite enjoy it. There's nothing better than coming home and saying, "Hey, I got this handled, this handled, this handled." It makes you the hero. And I believe every man, no man wants a woman. He can't save from a castle on a dragon. That girl is from a podont town in Louisiana. Her dad still lives in a trailer. And I take her all over the world. I give her, she lives in a humongous fucking house with beautiful kids, gets to raise them. And I go out and try to slave the dragons every day, buying property, building buildings all over the place, doing podcasts, doing stuff online, networking, everything. It's one of the most fulfilling things I do. Probably the most. Second to that is helping young men. If they don't want to take the same path as me, I'm completely okay with that. They're not less of a man. If they want to be monogamous for the rest of their life, I think as long as you have choice and you're doing what you truly, truly in your heart want to do, then I think you've succeeded. You included. So that's genuinely how I look at it. But as far as discipline goes, I've got plenty of it. I just am not playing the game. It's like, if you were to tell me, if we put a pizza down on this table and you said, Justin, you're not disciplined. Why are you eating all this pizza? I'd be like, bro, I'm still going to have a six pack at the end of this pizza, bro. You're on a diet, not me. And that's how I feel about it. And what's funny is I say all this on the internet and it doesn't stop my Instagram inbox from filling up with women. I can't even answer the messages. So on some level, I believe that women don't even care as much as people think. Well, let me ask, so what do you think those women are after? I would assume knowing what I know about women, it's not just the sex. So are they hoping to become a permanent fixture in your life? Are they hoping that they can turn your head away from your girlfriend? What do you think they're after?

The More You Educate Women, The Fewer Kids Are Born (01:30:02)

I think all of the above. I think it depends on the woman. Some girlfriends are just trying to have my kids, which is something really interesting I noticed about your situation is that your wife didn't want to have kids, which was really surprising to me in that somehow that's okay with you. It surprises me because I didn't say this to you earlier, but I super look up to you. You're a great man. Like, "Quest, that's a big fucking deal, dude. Like, you're somebody." Yeah. No, it's just true. Actually, I'm not even being nice. It's just a matter of fact, true. And when I think about that, I'm like, "Bro, Tom, what if he had sons? What would that legacy be?" And when I see a guy like you not chase it, it makes me want to chase it even more. You know what I'm saying? It's good. And thank you for your service, by the way. Yeah. And I really mean that. I know it sounds super cheeky, but I am really worried about population collapse and the fact that we've chosen not to have kids. Bro, you know who's not having kids? The smart people. Dumb people are having kids, bro. There's something in that statement, by the way. There's something to the fact that the more you educate women, the fewer kids are born. Because they're growing phantom penises, bro. They're growing phantom penises. Yes, they are. They're very masculine. And it takes a super, super hyper masculine man to make them feel feminine. Okay, that was a hard turn. So- Oh, I get that all the time. Let me reorient. So what is the takeaway from that? That's why- So my- I feel like women have this- As you educate them- No, I have not educated. Education so much. It starts with the education, but then it turns into girl power and feminism and boss bitch stuff. When I think naturally, the natural state of a woman is to be a little bit more submissive, is to be in not the leadership role, but the helping the cause role. And I think most women, ideally, don't want to make all decisions, don't want to pick where dinner is, don't want to make the hard business choices. They don't want to face the pressure and stress of work. They're outliers. Maybe your wife is one of them. But I think by and largely the average woman does not want that. They don't want that life. They're being forced into that life because men aren't showing up in the same way as they used to. And they have all this pressure from society to be a bad bitch. And so they end up growing, what I like to call this phantom penis, where they're kind of more of a man than the guys that are trying to date them. And so we're in this weird paradox where men have to be super, super, super on top of their stuff to even get a woman to want to submit. Because why would a woman want to take a risk on a man that she doesn't even know if he can handle it? Isn't that dangerous to her on a primal level? Yeah. And when she makes more money than him and she has a higher prestigious position than him. And she's supposed to come home and they're going to supposed to be equal partners all of a sudden. I don't believe it. And I know it's not popular, but I just think on a very basic primal level, it's not true. It's not true. And then it doesn't look, I have very high level women that work for me, making multiple six figures, big bonus checks. I mean, they, one percenter, one of my women, the lady that runs my construction company, she is a one percenter. And she deserves every bit of it.

Men Want to Feel Powerful, Women Want to Feel Appreciated (01:33:21)

And we couldn't make it without her. She's absolutely phenomenal. But she's also substantially older than me, grew up in a different generation. I don't think a woman can be a breadwinner today and there be that same sexual chemistry between her and her husband. It's an interesting thesis. It's a very interesting thesis. I actually think there's probably more to it than I think there's much more. So I. Argue with me. No, unfortunately on this one, all I can do is agree with you. So I think that men want to feel powerful and just like women want to feel beautiful. Yes. You make a woman feel safe, seen and desired. Then heard, for sure, then you're going to do well. If you make a man feel appreciated and powerful, you're done. Yeah, that's what I need. And yeah, it's very interesting. So this is now we're getting into the territory of what I think the real problem is. So there's a great quote. I think it was Oscar Wilde who said everything about everything is about sex, except sex. That's about power. And the first time, and of course, it's overly simplistic. I don't want people to freak out. But the reason that the quote gets people's attention is like, there's a little something to it that really does carry something. And there, so we'll take my wife and I wish she was here so people could see. Trust me, I'm not putting words in my wife's mouth. This is something that we've talked about a lot. So my wife wanted to be a bad bitch. She woke up one day and was like, you know what? I want to go on my entrepreneur arc. I really like this. I'm good at it, which is true. She is unbelievable. Best business partner I've had. She's amazing. And at the same time, I was like, hey, just to be clear, I'm not interested in fighting for the role of leader in the family. And but at the same time, I'm never going to ask you to slow down so I can lead. But when I'm better than you at something, I'm not going to pretend that you're better than me. And when you're better than me at something, we're not going to pretend that I'm not better. But in no uncertain, like when we founded Impact Theory, I said, hey, I am perfectly happy to split the money that we have earned. You earned your half for sure. Happy to give you your half. You can go run a business, whatever business you want. And I'll take my half and I'll go run a business. Or we can run it together. If we're going to run it together though, then, and it's important to note at this point that the attorneys were like, hey, if you guys decide to run it together, one of you needs to have 51%, one of you needs to have 49%. Otherwise, it's the perfect divorce nightmare. And Lisa was like, obviously you take 51%, like makes all the sense in the world. You work harder than me. Totally get it. I was like, absolutely not over my dead body. I want the ultimate divorce nightmare because we're never getting divorced. And it's up to me to be able to navigate this well enough that we don't get divorced. So I'm like, I'm all in. I want you to understand you're more important to me than the business. And I want to put my money where my mouth is. So the company is 50/50. And so if we ever get into a divorce, fucking everything blows up. I love it. I love it. I hate it. So I understand. So we've got the company 50/50. So I said, OK, if we're going to do that, then just know that, of course, you're amazing. I know what you're capable of. And we will always try to convince each other. If I think one thing is right, I'll try to convince you. If you think something's right, you try to convince me. And I love all that. And yeah. And we'll honor that. And obviously, if you have a woman running your company, you know that any individual, anything can be-- I love to be wrong. --all best. Right? It's wonderful. I don't need to be right. I need to win. And I don't care who says it. I say the same thing all the time. Yep. So, but I want to be clear, dear wife of mine, that if we can't convince each other, we will go with my idea every time. And if you're cool with that, then we can do it together. And if you're not cool with that, I totally understand. But you can't ever find ourselves in a stalemate. So one of us has to be the final arbiter. It has to be the way. Now, the way it normally breaks down is, if I know it's an area of her expertise, then I'm just going to be like, OK, it makes more sense to go with your thing. But a few times, it really has come down to, I understand your position perfectly, and think you're wrong. You understand my position perfectly, and think I'm wrong. And we're just going to-- then I'm the tiebreaker. Right. So look, you can work this stuff out. And I really do believe, if in those moments, I didn't feel like I was the right person to lead. Because, by the way, I came to that conclusion, because we both think I'm the right person to make that decision. My wife was not like, oh, my God, this is so unfair. She was like, yeah, you're the right person to make that decision. Now, the problem becomes, what if you're in a marriage and you get to that point? And she's like, I don't think you're the right person to make that decision. I think all emotional hell breaks loose. I don't know how he gets an erection. And I don't know how she would want to ever find herself under him. Look, maybe that's me being old.

The problem with unshackled women. (01:38:32)

I don't know. That's when my respect equals love thing. Your wife respects you because of the businessman that you were. And for that reason, she gave you the nod to make these critical decisions. And that's all I really meant by respect equals love is the respect. And as long as she respects you and looks up to you in the way that she wants you making those decisions, she will want to sleep with you. And that's what I meant by what I said earlier. So everything that you just said sounds good to me. In fact, it's even better that you gave her more stock. Like the money is aside. Like give her the 51% whatever. But the fact that she came to you as a decision maker, I think is ideal. Yeah. So then you earned it. These are the easy parts. Now we want to get into the hard part, which is, okay, Mr. Billieu, if you're correct, and this is really the way to move forward, what do you do when you unshackle women educate the shit out of them? They're better at education. So they're pulling ahead. They are usually more conscientious, more organized. So these are demand a lot of times. Yep. Less problematic. More organized. And so they fire ahead of men. Yep. Now what? Jay Waller. What do we do? Because that is the situation we find ourselves in. Women are finally, thank God, unshackled. And all of society now gets to benefit from their insights, their wisdom, their talents, all of it. But it creates a dynamic, which is at least in pockets problematic. Because if hypergamy is real, and it does seem to be, maybe it will diminish over time.

Pop Culture Views And Social Issues

Will the problem of hypergamy self-correct? (01:40:14)

There'll probably be second and third order consequences to that. But for now, it's pretty steady that they're still going over and up. But the pool of men that qualify for over or up is diminishing by the second. I think one or two things will happen. Either we will go back to that polygamy situation, like we talked about before, or we're going to have to go all the way socialist, and nobody owns anything. But either way, I think it's going to get ugly. I don't understand how that works. You know how they say that there's going to be some point that nobody's going to own anything, and they like it as some bullshit that the left's putting on. Yeah, but we can derail on that. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. It won't work. It won't work. So, I don't think it's going to be pretty. I think there's going to be more and more men that are sexual, and I think there's going to be more and more women that have this natural urge and this maternal urge, the thing that God truly gifted with, their superpower, that they're not going to be able to fulfill it. And they're going to end up working for these big corporations that allow them to freeze their eggs or have abortions or do these other things. And they're going to miss out on probably the most beautiful and most important job in the world, and that's being a mother. And also, I might add, the hardest job in the world. And it's a shame. Do you think that will self-correct? I think it would have to. I don't know that the powers that be don't want less people. They're worried about the climate and everything. But I think it would have to self-correct. I think as humans, we're naturally going to self-correct anything that will allow survival. So maybe we start putting incentive programs to have babies. Maybe we champion women that are... I think they did that in Japan. I don't think it's helped. Maybe not. Because I think if the underlying problem persists... The hypergamy thing. Yeah. I'll even say it the other way. If the ideal that men strive for is weakness, is supplication, then this problem will persist. And this is... So you said something earlier that actually really hit me, and I like a lot. And I'm going to imagine this one of the more inflammatory things that you've said, which is a real man is somebody you can go from slitting a throat to holding a baby in the same day. I think most guys are like, word, and most women are mortified. So one of the animals... I disagree. I think that a woman... Tell me more. I think that a woman, most women, even the hard ones, even the big boss bitch women, ultimately, if the right man sits in front of her at the table and he controls his frame, and he is truly meaning what he's saying. And she finds him to be competent, charming, and all the other things that she will gladly put down the boss bitch, crown, and be submissive and be happy inside that role. I just don't think those men are walking around everywhere.

Why there arent many men that can pass the sh%2A test. (01:42:59)

Interesting. I think you're going to have a PR problem. Maybe. So I don't know that you're wrong in the final analysis, but as I think about how do we get there? So take my own wife. One of the angles that I considered for the episode was... Jordan Peterson has a really powerful idea, and he said, "Being harmless is not virtuous." That's right. And so it was like, "harmless men are weak." It was like the angle. And even my wife was like, "No, that's horrible." Really? Yeah. She was like, "As a woman, I want a guy to be harmless towards me." Now, I think they're wrong. And I think what my wife, who I know better than anyone on this planet, what she wants is for me to be... Dangerous to them. Yes. Covered in the blood of my enemies. Yes. Even easier. Covered in the blood of her enemies that I slay anyone that tries to damage her or touch this family or hurt us in some way, that I would go in the offensive and that she never has to worry. And she's safe in your arms. Correct. And going back to Jordan Peterson's idea of... So his whole thing, his analysis, I don't know that this is true. I'd have to look into it. But the idea of the meek shall inherit the earth. And I never understood that. And because I read Meek as weak. And I was like, "Why on God's green earth would weak people ever inherit the earth?" They're not going to. It's just the world is not working that way. And his read is that Meek, an old Latin or Greek or whatever, actually meant the person capable of great violence that keeps their sword sheathed. So Bruce Lee says, "The best way to win a fight is to not engage." But you're only choosing, going back to your idea of choice, you're only choosing whether to fight. If you actually can fight, otherwise you're just being a coward. That's right. And so that to me feels like the real analysis. But the way that it's talked about, especially now, this message was approved is all about being aggressive, is toxic. I am very stubborn about the idea of mansplaining.

What's mansplaining? (01:45:04)

I'm in a mansplaining, whatever the fuck. Like if mansplaining? What is that? You actually have not heard that phrase. Wow, that's impossible. So mansplaining is where a guy is inappropriately explaining something to other people as if they don't understand it. And my read is, if you assume that somebody is doing anything other than either trying to be generous with their knowledge, or they're just excited that they know something and they want to share it. And that's a pretty natural thing to be like, "Oh my god, I know something about it. I want to show that I know about basket weaving or whatever." That I think is what's really going on. Anyway, that one winds me up, but that's my own hang up. Do you know another thing that's kind of on the topic of being strong thing, this fake virtue signaling when they're really just cowards? A lot of women fall for the mistake of the men that are like, "I would never do that. There's a huge difference between not being able to get women and being loyal." And that's one thing that I find to be very hypocritical of a lot of men that will run around and talk about. I would never do that. I would never do this, this, and this. Oh no, my friend, you can't. So don't say that you're loyal when it's really just your inability to garner attention from other women. Same thing with violence. Don't act like you turn the other cheek if you have just not created a scenario where you're physically capable of such. So I believe, I believe completely in what you're saying, I completely agree. I have a question for you. What are your thoughts on Jordan Peterson? So I think he's amazing. I think he tweets like a maniac. And if I could get him to stop tweeting, I would. I don't like this sort of bitterness vibe. But I think that he is once again onto something critically important, which is, okay, we've lost God at the center of our mythology and our self-understanding, and that has had critical implications. He wants to refill that whole with religion. I think that's played out, but I do think that it does have to be replaced with a shared narrative. I don't think that shared narrative has to be asking people to believe that there really is this divine creature or whatever. But I do think that we need something. It has to be shared. It is the fact that we don't share a mythology that's causing a problem, in my opinion.

The problem with Christianity & Peterson's popularity boost. (01:47:42)

I agree that Christianity is the reason that we live in civilization the way we do today. I think Christianity was very, very, very good for us as humans to work together and have morals and not kill each other and not rape and pillage. I agree with that. I also think that you're probably right that he's not going to save it religion. I do find it quite interesting that he had this huge epiphany at such an age and after something negative has happened to him. I think that's very interesting. I think a lot of people that go to Christianity wait until something bad happens and then they come out of it. Christians, I find that interesting for sure. In what way you find it interesting. I don't know what you read as on Christianity. Good, bad, and it's a good concept. I believe in God. A Christian God? I believe that there's a God in some collective consciousness. In you define a God? I think that God exists in our collective consciousness of knowing what's right and wrong and what's best for the species. If humans were wiped out, would God cease to exist? Probably. It's an idea that we all share. Why he's real, right? Why God's real? I heard Andrew say this and I really resonate with it. He said, "If you were on a ship and it wrecked, and there were two islands, and you could swim one or two directions, and you swam towards the island of a godless island, savages, they would kill you. But if you swam left, and it was a religious society, and because of God, their God, they did not kill you, and you lived, is God real." And in that perspective, I think Andrew is right. Do I think there's a guy in heaven that's going to send me to hell for sleeping with women or doing stuff that people don't like sometimes or saying the truth? No, I don't. I don't. In regards to Jordan, I think it's interesting because he lived his entire life. If before something bad happened to him, and I just think it's kind of a system, like a it's a pattern, people have something bad and they run to God all of a sudden, I do think that's interesting. And what is it there that's allowing him to hold it? You know, like the bad time is over. He's probably got another book out by now. What is it for him? And then this is a genuine question that's allowing him to still hold onto it or not feel like a bit of a hypocrite inside. I do. So he's assuming nothing falls apart. He's coming on the show late in the year this year. And I want to ask him precisely about this idea. Now, the book he's writing is about, I think it's called, "temporarily, anyway, those that struggle with God." Now, I still don't know. I don't know how he would answer the question now. Do you believe in God? Because for a long time, he said, "I act as if." So in the beginning, beginning, he was like, "I don't." But I act as if. Then it was just, "I act as if." And now I'd be very curious to know if he's really like, refound a Christian-style faith, or if he looks at the Bible the way I do, which is a monomyth. It is a way for everybody in society to rally around the set of principles and ideas.

Are you a fan of Christians or The Holy Bible? (41:10) (01:50:56)

It's very good for society in many ways. Depending on what slots into that, yes. So Christianity has on balance probably been good. If you were in the middle of the Crusades and you were on the Muslim side, you probably weren't a big fan. But I think that probably on balance, if we're really going to, and I have not looked at this problem well enough, I'm now at the edge of what I understand. I always like to disclose that. But taking the frame for a second that Western civilization really is largely born of a Judeo-Christian ethic, and that we can therefore, if society is really downstream of that belief system, and then we can look at what we have and go, "Okay, cool. Does that good or bad?" I would say Western civilization is an unbelievable miracle that yanks people out of poverty as fast as humanly possible. So, yeah, I'm certainly a fan of the result. Do you trust that he's even going to tell you the truth? Jordan? Yes. Yeah. Yes. Aggressively. Now, I don't know Jordan well. I've interviewed him, but I've never had an interaction with him that wasn't an interview. But from everything that he pushes out, that man has taken more smoke, brought more smoke on him for just saying what he believes is true. If he's lying, bro, pick a better lie, because this guy is like constantly embroiled in lawsuits and governmental bodies, and like, god damn, if this is him lying, holy shit. So, yeah, that would just be nonsensical. So, the only thing, and he, so here's something I really share with him. There is a trifecta of books. If people have not read them, they must. You know nothing about humans until you read the following three books. And that is The Gulag Archipelago by Alexandra Solzhenitsyn, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, and Mao the Untold Story. And when you read those books, which are like the three great genocides, really, of the 20th century, it's unimaginable. It's unimaginable how evil people can be. Like how, oh god, much rather be a dog on this queen sliding into a crocodile's mouth. Yeah. Like it, it, it, humans can be so gnarly. It's almost impossible to imagine. And so those books just go into painstaking detail. There's another one honorary mention called the Red Famine. And that just happens to be basically about the same thing as The Gulag Archipelago. But in it, it's, there was effectively a manufactured famine in the Ukraine, in the 1920s, and they, they killed what were called the Koolocks. And the Koolocks were basically the successful farmers. So imagine like your, your high performing entrepreneurs. When people say eat the rich, what I hear is kill the Koolocks. And I'm just like, bro, this experiment has been run. And in the book, this woman, they casually just mentioned this, this woman's walking by her neighbor's house in the middle of the winter. This is the Ukraine. Okay. It's not like a, a winter in California. I've been fucking winter. She's walking by her neighbor's house. She looks in the window and she sees a woman eating her seven year old daughter. That's what humans are capable of. And so from the lunacy of killing your best performing farmers, to like, well, the daughter's only so. If I eat her, at least I can survive. If she's me, she's still going to die. She's only seven. Doesn't know how to do anything. So I'm just going to fucking eat her. Like, now remember, I see myself in that story and I am terrified that that line of good and evil runs from my own heart. And do I want to say that I would never? Yes. But as you were saying earlier, so humans are capable of some really, really horrendous things. And so Jordan turned me on to the Gulag archipelago, really got me thinking about just how horrendous people can be. Makes sense. I'll have to read those. It's, yeah, it's super intense. Now, what made you ask about Jordan Peterson? There are times where I feel like he's a bit hypocritical. Really? Yeah. Because he used to be atheist. I don't know if he ever would use that word. And now he's. No, no issue with that, really. It's really more to me about running around, talking about being mentally tough, and then jumping on medications and having to go rehab and things like that. Interesting. Yeah. Like he's running around telling young men to be strong and all this other shit. And then the first thing he does is go start popping pills and doesn't face it. And he also talks about being capable. I don't find it'd be overly capable. I know he's an older man. I don't mean no disrespect to him. He's very well accomplished, accomplished a lot. I would never disrespect him. But in those regards, I found him to be a bit hypocritical. Interesting. Okay. So you and I see this very differently. Let me see if I can convince you. Yeah. Here's my read on Jordan for sure. And just about anybody in that position, I think I'd feel the same. So my read on Jordan is you have a very successful college professor who, as far as academics go, has an amazing career. He already has multiple streams of revenue because he is extraordinarily smart. He wrote one of the most, his book on mythology, maps of meaning, as a storyteller. Like that's one of the most profound books I've read. He didn't say what in talented. I believe him. No, we'll get there. But like I'm trying to paint a picture of somebody who has everything going for him. His life is amazing. He does. He's stud. But this is back right before Bill C-16. So pre-Bill C-16, all this going from doing great, taught at Harvard for a while. I mean, it just, you don't get a better academic career. He's got a private practice. He's helping a lot of people turning around lives. He spent, I forget how many hours he said, something like 32 hours trying to teach a man with, I think, an 84 IQ, how to fold paper and put it in an envelope. Like this is a guy that has really gone out of his way to help humanity. Great man. So you got to bear with me. I'll get there. Yeah. I'm sure. Okay, cool. So he's got this life. Now, Bill C-16 pops up. He's read the Gulag Archipelago. He's read Malle the Untold Story. He knows the rise and fall of the Third Reich. He knows what humans are capable of. And he believes, not to put words in his mouth. This is my interpretation, that he believes that all it takes for all held to break loose is for good men to remain silent in that moment where it's going to be self-destructive to stand up for what you believe is true. And so he says, "Hey, this is going to be worth it for." I was like, we're forth from that now. Agreed. I think he was the tip of the spear. Yeah. So he ends up standing up for it. And for all intents and purposes, it ends up working out okay in many ways. But for all intents and purposes, he has devastating consequences in his life. I mean, just blows his life up, gets one of the biggest cancellations you're ever going to see. I mean, just ruthless. And he builds back, and I think he says now, he's got like 10 lawsuits happening at once. I mean, for him to stand up and speak about what he thinks is true, he has paid an extraordinary price. Now, if he is right that all it takes for evil to take over is for good men to say nothing, then sort of whether somebody reads his actions as hypocritical or not, he's done this amazing service. Okay? In my view. Agreed. So he pays his tremendous price does this very important thing. Now, he let's say his wife gets diagnosed, not let's say his wife gets diagnosed in the middle of all this madness. His wife gets diagnosed with cancer and all of a sudden he has anxiety just overwhelming him. Now, I have to imagine the vast majority of humanity has anxiety way before that moment, way before that moment. And so he struggles. Now, could we really say that Jordan has not worked on being mentally tough? That seems insane to me. But here's a guy who's like, I'm going to take every tool that's available to me. And drugs are one of the tools available to me. Now, I would advise him and anybody that will listen to me, do not take a drug that you have to take every day. I don't take anything every day except Zertek, which is an antihistamine. And even that, I'm like, I shouldn't be taking this every day. So I don't think people should take any substance every day. But if you have an anxiety or depression disorder and you have not mastered it yet, and you need in acute situations, a pharmacological intervention, I'm all for that. Now, I think he would agree that the way he went about it was foolish and I doubt he'd do it again. But with all of that crashing down on him, the fact that he has a breaking point, like everybody has a breaking point, the fact that he used an exogenous substance to try to deal with it, word, like whatever, use everything at your disposal. And so, and I agree with that, use everything at your disposal. To the point of for sure, if I ever needed drugs, I would do it. I would try to do everything in my power first, for sure, for sure, for sure. But as somebody that dealt with profound anxiety, and the only reason I didn't take anxiety medication at the height of that was because I was so terrified and take daily anxiety medication, I was so terrified of taking anything daily. But acute? Yes. I was like, dude, I don't know what the fuck is going on, but I feel like I'm in a constant state of dread and I don't know why. Now, what it ended up being is my diet, but at the time, I didn't know that. I had no idea. So I felt completely lost in the woods. Now, but I still, even though I wasn't on camera at the time, I still would tell people, anybody would listen, you got to be toughening your mind. I'm saying it to myself. And I'm like, but I was very open. I have this anxiety. I don't know why the fuck. I'm working through it.

Are people flawed and do you assume they are? (44:34) (02:00:50)

It doesn't feel difficult to me. And there we are. Yeah. Do you feel like he was as transparent as you are right now? I never hit me that he was. I didn't know that he was or wasn't talking about it. I agree with everything you just said. My problem, and not even really a problem because I don't have a problem with him, the inconsistency I see is that he was not as transparent as you are right now. It didn't hit me weird at all. So one, when I look at humans, I assume they are deeply flawed. And Jordan Peterson and Tom Bill you. And Justin Waller. For sure. Completely flawed. Completely flawed. Every way. So man, I look at him if I'm being honest, even though I look at things like his tweets and they make me angry because I'm like, Jordan, what the fuck are you doing? He did a whole podcast about how he tweets like a psychopath and he should probably stop.

Personal Growth And Handling Betrayal

Jordan talking about not hiding who you are (02:01:39)

Yes, you should. It was a great podcast, by the way, Jordan. Take that advice. But I really do believe that he has been, and I get made fun of. I'm not sure what the right word is. I think people that stand up for what they believe in are brave and that I, for a long time, Justin Waller, I hid behind my guests on my own interview show, and I didn't say what I believed. And if people were saying something that I thought, that's fucking crazy, I just stayed quiet and I was like, I'm going to edit that out. And then I started when COVID kicked off, I felt like a coward, and I didn't like that feeling. And so I was like, well, now I'm going to have to start talking about this. And I didn't want to because I was looking at Jordan Peterson, understand, you don't know this about me. You asked me about this before he started rolling. I never got to the punch line. This shirt is a character I created in the video game that we're building. And that is the joy of my life is telling stories that empower people. So anyway, I want to be the next Walt Disney man. And I know that every, I've said 90 things in this podcast alone that are going to make a certain set of people never want to interact with my games or whatever. And that makes me sad, but I don't want to be a coward. Makes me happy for you, because I feel like the truth is form of living life is living life on your own terms. And speaking your truth. One thing I've learned about going on social media is that yeah, maybe some people hate me, but I get 10x love and a deeper love from people that really appreciate me for who I actually am. And so for that reason, you have a cult following the people that play your game. And anybody else was going to wait till you said something else that I didn't like and bail on you anyway. So fuck them. That is the final analysis, but you and I both know that if you're going to get anywhere useful in life, you can't lead with your emotions. And so you might think fuck them, but for everybody listening, I would highly encourage you to move through life with integrity and strategy. You can't just be a dumbass bull in a china shop that says whatever the fuck all the time. What have you said on this podcast that was not integrity? I've been entirely in integrity in this podcast. Exactly. So if those people were to not play your video game, because you just stated the truth, aren't you still in the integrity and aren't they just going to hate you later when you say something else they don't like? Okay. I'm going to give, since you're his friend, I'm going to give Andrutate advice through you. Dear Andrew, you're very smart and you're going to positively impact a lot of people. But the way that you frame things in such an inflammatory way is fucking moronic. Because you brought a lot of attention. But now let's assume, and I don't know, I know you do, and I know you are 100% convinced that he's innocent. I love that. Even if you're wrong, I love that you're loyal and all that. So no disrespect. I don't know the fun guy. I never met him. Nothing. But he's on camera saying things that I would have advised him not to say ever, even if he's joking. So he has by not being as strategic as he should have been. And I've heard him admit he always couches it. Seeing how influential I am now, I would have said things differently. Yes, very wise, because the reality is the way that he has purported himself, again, assuming that he did not do these things. The way that he put himself out there got him a huge following and made him a literal enemy of the state. And at some point, man, you just that was not as strategic of a move as it could have been. So there, I'm just like, you need to have integrity. You need to say what is true, but you also need to be real. What is the world really like? And you talk about that. You want your kids to know what the world is really like. And the world is really like. There are other powerful forces out there. And if you pretend that they're not, you're going to get blindsided by dumb shit that you could have avoided. End of message. Okay. Message as Andrew's friend. Andrew may have said some things that he didn't. That might not serve him now. He might have said them very loudly when he had a small following. Andrew, like Jordan, is not perfect. But I do think he's a greater, good than Jordan. That's going to piss some people off. But I can tell you right now, Andrew's face just as much as Jordan, if not more, if not more, keeping a completely sober mind, doing push up, having young men get better all over the world despite the fact that he's the enemy of the state. He's turned it around and has helped many young men go to Islam. Whether you agree with that or not is, I guess, a non issue, but it is definitely a stronger path and degeneracy. Getting them fit, teaching them to make money all over the world in the real world, which I also promote. And I would argue that Andrew Tate is one of the greatest forces for good and truth that exists in the world today in front of your friend Jordan. So on that, I would say, so again, I don't know, Andrew, so take all of my comments with a grain of salt is somebody who's not an Andrew scholar. But looking at it from the outside, I see hypocrisy in his actions from, I don't know, Islam well enough.

Andrew Tate vs Jordan Peterson (02:06:57)

So again, I'm a headline reader right now. But at a headline reader level, him saying that, you know, women shouldn't be on only fans, but then profiting off of women being on only fans does not strike me as non hypocritical. Also, and I think this is like, so when I look at Jordan and Jordan saying, yeah, fuck, I needed the medication and I had to do it. And I never read it as he wasn't being honest. I don't know if he talked about it or whatever. But I was impressed when Andrew wrote the tweet saying, I can't remember if he said he was one day he said, I almost cried in jail today, almost. I thought, whoa, he's actually being honest and he's being vulnerable. And then the other day, he put out a post, this is pretty recent, he's back home, under house arrest. And he said, I haven't slept more than 45 minutes a night because I'm so worried. I don't remember if he used the word word, but it was like, okay, whoa, like, obviously this is really weighing on him and all that. Now, that was not a signal to me that you have a person with a weak mind, nor is it a signal to me that Jordan having anxiety is a signal of a person with a weak mind. Now, if Jordan had been screaming from the rooftops, anybody that's on pharmacology is a fucking idiot. And what are you doing? And that makes you weak and bad. And then it came out that he was using it. I have to imagine if he didn't out and out say, I've prescribed this to my patients and it's helped a lot of people might when I heard he was on it, I was like, Oh, yeah, like it didn't even make my radar is like, Oh, that doesn't mean that you're strong anymore. Plus, let's say that Jordan is the weakest person in the world. I would still don't believe. No, no, no, no, and you haven't said that. I'm just saying, even if he was, I would still want him to say, Hey, guys, look, I'm totally weak, but I really encourage you to be strong. And I know that because I'm weak, you guys aren't going to take it as seriously. But it really, from all the clients I've seen, like that really feels like the right way to get the most out of your life. Like the right message is the right message. And that is if somebody deploys, this is how I judge all advice. If somebody deploys your advice in their real life, will it move them towards human flourishing and reduce suffering? If yes, good advice, if no bad advice, that simple. And so I don't care if it comes from the most flawed person in the universe. And this is how tape made my radar. Because I was like, look, I gotta admit, pretty inflammatory kind of freaks me out. But 10% of what he says is really real. And you would be a fool to dismiss. And so yeah, I'm not a, I, I don't have the response to anybody that says a true message from what you're calling a hypocritical stance that you do, because I think most people are flawed. I can only imagine if people went back through everything I've ever said, I've said a ton of dumb hypocritical shit. And so I'm just like, Oh God. So anyway, I look at people as wildly flawed individuals, hopefully trying to do their best, knowing that people will walk lines flirt with shit that they probably shouldn't. But I know about myself that if every word I had ever said were recorded, especially with my wife, who I lay some outrageous shit on her, I would not like that.

Happiness (02:10:11)

So I give everyone that grace. What makes you happy? Jay Waller, are you now interviewing me? Yes. What makes me happy? We can argue about Jordan and Tate if you want to. If there's more to say, I'm happy to say it. I said everything I had to say. Do you, if you have more to say, please, there's no bullet I won't take for Tate. I know. Let's talk about that just at a brotherhood level. So if you take a bullet for Tate, you die and leave your kids alone. No, Andrew would take care of my whole family. What do you mean? So because of that, if that weren't in place, is that a key part of why you would take a bullet? That's just an understood that he'd take care of everything. I think that the relationship we have fosters itself to fighting for each other in every way. So he does things for me all the time. In fact, just the other day, I needed something. He texts the CEO immediately. I mean, like, we're constantly working together and doing things. When he was in jail, I would go pick his mom up and stepdad and meet them and take them to lunch. We cover each other like that. It's honor. It's something that I think is highly missing. Brotherhood is highly missing from young men today. They're on their phones. They're by themselves. I have a real relationship with a real person. I told Andrew this once, man. I was like, dude, I got nothing against Cobra Tate, but I love Andrew. There is no Jay Waller when I'm at his house. It's a Justin or cowboy or whatever. It's just something that I feel like a lot of people are missing. A lot of people think that we're missing something, our group of friends. You know, oh, you don't have kids. Well, new slash I got kids. Oh, you don't have this dude. I have it all. I literally have everything.

A Family (02:12:04)

I have family. I have children that love me. I have a wife that love me. My mother-in-law brings my kids out to my car when I leave for work. I got Andrew. I have brotherhood. I have Tristan. I have the whole war room. There's nothing missing from my life. I am truly, truly happy in every way. I think a lot of people want to hate on our group and say that we're not happy or like we were aimlessly sleeping with all these women and stuff. And it's just not true. Just last week when I was at his house, he's sitting here. I'm sitting by his mom. His stepdad's over here. Tristan's here. We're all joking laughing his kickboxing coaches across the way, screaming at us to eat onions because it makes us stronger. It was a family. It was the most wholesome thing you've ever seen. I always say the best side of Andrew is the side that the world never sees. And if I were ever to give him advice, it was to be, it would be to show who you are when it's just us because it's one of the most incredible men you'll ever meet. And of course I'm going to feel that way. Of course I'm biased. Of course I feel that way about my closest friends and Tristan and Sterling Cooper and some of these other guys and some of the guys that I know from the war room. Of course. But it is such a great honor for me to be able to protect and stick up for them with the opportunity that I've been given and I won't let that pass me by. What would you do if you found something that made you believe he is guilty? It would break my heart. Because if he's guilty, not only am I wrong, I'm a fool. Because I've spent way too much time in his house. He would have had to do it right underneath my nose. He would have had to be doing it in multiple cities on like, it's just not even a thought in my mind. It's not even a possibility. I've been around him way too much. I have way too many employees. I've been lied to way too many times. I would have caught a micro expression somewhere. He is the most consistent person I know. And Tristan for that matter. I don't worry about whether they're going to get upset with me about something or if we're going to argue about something. I've never had an argument with either one of them. We've debated for sure and enjoy doing it and it's fun. But it's only about getting better and what the goal is and on the mission to the goal. It's never personal. He's one of the most consistent people I've ever met. Truly. I know what to expect when I talked to him. I hope that answers the question. It does. I have another layer to that. So now abstract it. Because what I find interesting in you and what I think you represent and what I hope young men hear from you. There is something special that they should be unapologetic about, about building a group of men that hold them to a standard and that they hold them to a standard and that they have a brotherhood and that there is honor and that hopefully that they love a small, almost inevitably, a small group of people that they would lay their lives down for. And this is, you know, if I can imagine that very little good comes out of war, but that tends to be where people say, like, I've never had that sort of camaraderie like I did when we had a shared adversary and our backs were against the wall and it really was liver dye. There's, we're wired for that as a species. And so in a modern context, you don't really get that. I had that a little bit in business and every now and then there'll be a click inside the company. Right now we have a crew of guys and it's not this far to being like, I take a bullet for these guys, but it feels different. There's a group that stays really late every night and I'm because they have to, but because they want to and you know, it's that it feels something in my life that I don't get anywhere else. And so the edge I want to explore with that is I've heard you say that you had been betrayed before and so it really took you a minute to trust, but that giving yourself over like that again and trusting again felt awesome. And so I want to know what would you do if you then felt betrayed by them?

What If You Felt Betrayed (02:16:03)

Anybody you're like abstracted from them because I'm not asking a question about them, but you're in a group of people and you feel that sense of brotherhood, camaraderie, and all that. But then there is a betrayal. Would you go, fuck, I knew it like this was all bullshit and it could never last or is it like bad apple remove them? I understand now what better to look for have to protect the brotherhood. Absolutely bad apple because I think you have in family and people you can trust relentlessly is one of the highest peaks of human joy. I really do. There's a special feeling that crosses through me when I know for a fact if I were to die today that my kids would have to wear for nothing. And there's a certain honor I get from knowing that if he were to die today that I would take care of his kids in the same way. I think it's a very rare thing in the world today and that's why I believe we're true. We're not rich, we're wealthy. You know, I genuinely believe that. So if somewhere hurt me today, it would suck and I would have to process it just like any other human. I would feel the pain just like any other human. I'm not super human. Like you said, plenty of flaws, but I don't find it to be productive for me to shut off the ability to trust moving forward because without trust, there's no speed and without speed, there's no money, there's no love, there's no growth, there's no business and there's no family. So you would have to trust again. How did you guys build that trust? Over time, we spent a lot of time together. I think you learned a lot about a person when you look them in the eyes. You go through adversity together, we train together, we do all kinds of things together. Just the other day we're doing a network and Amir is his trainer from Storm and Luton and Amir was punching me like crazy and he's knocking on the, he was hitting me in the solar plexus with the pad. If anybody you've seen, imagine a silverback gorilla with pads in his hand, he's going to punch you and he kept knocking the breath out of me and is already his cardio box and he's just like just dying and just tapping hands going in and you go through things together, been through the mountains together, done war room events together, been in situations in Odessa, Ukraine and in Dubai and like okay well you do this, I do this boom boom boom, we'll get this done bam boom. You know we work together on a daily basis. The real world is in my opinion probably the best online school that's out there right now and I think that a kid would be better off doing the real world than he would be going to Stanford and the reason is because there's millionaires that are doing that business that day teaching you in real time and there's a group of people helping you instead of you studying it's like hey here's the answer this is what works and so doing that with him and doing that with those young men and helping them grow, no there's nothing else I'd rather be doing it's the most fulfilling thing I've ever done in my life. Nobody thanks me for giving them a roof over their head when they pay rent and certainly not when I hit a construction schedule so I've never been happier doing this and that's largely in part to him you know asking me to come on it and help be a part of it and I'd much rather be on a team that wins championships than be Kevin Garnett and never win anything you know be the best player on my team I think it's lame and I think very unusual yeah well also believe that Scottie Pippen was one of the best players ever because he could have left him in the store somewhere but he decided not to because he saw what Michael had and for that reason they had plenty plenty of trophies and I think in the end if you can be selfless enough to look at where it makes the most sense maybe you could have been the fifth best player in the league or you could have been the number one two man ever to live so to me man I don't I know who I am as a person I run I have tons and tons of employees I don't need the ego boost I want to win and I want to do the right thing for these young men and I believe that what I'm doing with Andrew is that so there's no other direction for me to go do you guys have like a credo do you guys have a list of things like to be in this brotherhood you must adhere to these five principles Andrew has 41 tenants I don't know him by heart he wrote them right after he went to jail you can easily find him online and uh there is that an active part of the core group of guys how many of you are there in like

The Room Creed (02:20:02)

the tight tight circle four five okay so do you guys live by those things obviously not there's not a credo there right but I'll tell you another thing about Andrew that people don't know he has friends that are from 20 years ago never became you know super famous or rich or anything like that he still flies him over to spend time boxing and training together you'll see you'll see him sometimes and take confidential these are very normal guys that he's had 20-year relationships that he refuses to turn his back on you know is there a creed amongst our group of friends the obvious stuff you know do what you say you're gonna do show up and train you know be ruthlessly loyal around the subject of women and money I believe you learn a lot about a person by just women and money alone and I don't particularly like to have friends that are not in abundance of either because if they find themselves in a desperate situation they will fall to their desperation and so we try our best to keep men around us that at least have done the work and the ethics to put them in a position to have a little bit of money in women or there's a relationship that's so old you know nobody would ever snake you and so the group has that we haven't written them down there's not a credo where I don't think we're getting like group tattoos or anything so I don't know why not yeah okay talk to me about the frame like what does it mean to have a frame hold a frame yeah I believe it's a managed job to be a leader and I think you should leave with conviction and I think it's not a popular thing to say but I think it's overwhelmingly true that one women would

Leadership And Personal Opinions

What it means to be a good leader (02:21:55)

rather a man come in be strong be the rock that all of her emotional waves crash into because this face it women are more emotional than men I don't believe that men should show a lot of emotion I do think it's okay at times if they if they do but I think overdoing that especially with your partner is not a good idea as a man I believe that men should open doors I believe they should pay every tab I believe they should make the shot call the shots in the household and make all the business decisions it's when a man has not put himself in a position to get that respect and trust from a woman that that all falls down so a lot of men they want that respect they want to be the leader they want to do all you know do the things that you know a leader should get but then in turn they oftentimes are not doing the right things to deserve that credit from the woman and so she doesn't give that to him and for that reason I think a lot of situations fail when the man doesn't show up the way that he should but I think ideally a man should not only be strong enough to make all decisions but even protect her from things that are not going to be ideal for the relationship like having a crazy social media with your ass and titties everywhere not popular but true okay so what does it mean to hold the frame women are going to naturally what they call shit test right to test you to see how confident you are have you ever heard of shit test I haven't really I'm so outside of this world but I find it yeah absolutely fascinating yeah so it is a real thing like a girl might might

The shit test (02:23:23)

here's one that's going to piss some people off let's do this let's say your girlfriend comes to me she's like hey baby when I want to go on a girls trip no no you got a problem with that right you normally you would me yeah oh yeah I would never say no I don't even understand the impulse yet so no is why would I put my girl in a club somewhere all dawd up and address and high heels with a bunch of other single women so guys can come hit on her it's not distrust it's not insecurity it's just a foolish move but it's only foolish if you think she actually might cave unless you're worried about getting her unless you're worried about her getting assaulted no why would you put her in that circumstance why wouldn't you protect her from that circumstance doesn't she want to know that your territorial over her and you would want to protect that at all rights don't women deeply deeply want you to feel for them in that way no so here's so okay i'm glad we're here what we have to we have to tease things apart because there are averages and so yes i think a lot of women do but i think if they're in that phase there isn't the maturity to the relationship that i think is the great joy so here was this is how i came into my marriage so i was very bad with women when i was young and i i would not figuratively i would literally show up with flowers in a poem custom written for that girl on the first date there was one girl i wrote a very clever poem if i do say so myself just to get the first date which ps i did not get and so yeah no shit yeah oh this is all terrible i want everyone to understand this is did not work so long story short i finally crack the code and i figure out what you have to do and then suddenly getting women was very easy and so i was like okay cool this is a game there's psychological principles at play if you understand the psychological principles then you can position things well and you can present yourself in a certain way and what we would call hold the frame and so once i learned how to do that very very easy and then what i learned though was okay what i resonate with is i want to share my life with somebody and there's a great story about you to the band you two started out as a punk rock band and evolved over the years but their whole thing was we're going to find out what it looks like when a band stays together for their entire career and so bono could have broken off and done his own thing maybe the edge could have gone off and done his own thing but they said no that's not the game we're playing the game we're playing is what does it look like when a band stays together for 30 years and so we all got to watch that play out and so when i proposed to lisa my now wife um i was like i want to share this life with you and i want to grow with you build things with you like i want to do all of this with you and on our first anniversary i gave her a 50th anniversary card and i said i'm going to earn this and one day this will be true and our whole life has been predicated around that and being honest and i said look i'm always going to want to sleep with other women don't be paranoid about it because i'm committed to you and so i won't sleep with other women but i don't ever want you to feel insecure because i'm saying dumb shit like oh i only have eyes for you because you're going to know better than that and i don't need you to pretend that you don't find other people attractive what i need to know is that despite the fact that you find other people attractive despite the fact that there will be times where i'm up and times where i'm down i need to know when i'm down that you have so much belief in me that you would never cheat that that would be disloyal and speaking of creeds that you would just never violate the the promise that we're making to each other and so over but you do know that that's bullshit right no it's it is a hundred percent accurate let me tell you why it's bullshit please the only reasons bullshit is because you actually achieved everything you set out to achieve you could have made that creed all day long but if you would not have become tamboyo and you would have been in a position or put her in a position where she didn't respect you anymore she would have cheated on your ass and that creed would have been out the window you were a winner and for that reason she stayed because i don't want to mix the truth to young men about what it is it's not your love story or poem it's the fact that you became who you are as a man let me ask you how many years do you think i made her poor before i made her even sort of middle class well she agreed she believed in you the whole time yes because sure women that's very different that on horses yes we don't need any disagreement and she saw uh-huh in you what was always inevitable to become true and that you would win okay but then it isn't about me ultimately accomplishing it it's about her believing in me but i agree with you and you should always be taking her on that ride it's your job yes but i understand so this all started with would i let her go on the girls trip and do i think that it's foolish so we have created this packed marriage i mean for us it was very traditional so it was we had vows and we took those vows seriously and we talked a lot about what they meant and we don't even make jokes about divorce we call it the d-word i don't tease her like oh do that i'm gonna leave you we don't fuck around with that yeah you don't put it in in consciousness i know that yep so we do all kinds of things like that to protect it talk about how we want to share our life build our life together we do things like hey we're founding this company and it's going to be 50/50 and i care not about like i've said things like um because i really believe it hey if i ever found out you were cheating on me it's fine you you have earned your half i will give you my half i'll never speak to you again but take your half and go i'm not going to fight you so you put that in reality and not the d-word yeah because what i want her to understand is this is when i'm when i'm talking about that i need her to understand i wouldn't be who i am if you hadn't helped me become this person and i recognize your contributions there was a moment your your fans are going to hate this uh i'm not a crier there are times when i'm like i actually would feel better if i could cry but i just can't cry and there was one time i was fucking ugly crying because this was before the internet came along and i was just starting to be really successful and i think it was tied to when i got put on a magazine cover and i was like the world is never going to know that i wouldn't be who i am without you and that i don't need i literally don't know who i would be if i had met her i met her when i was 24 and so i was 24 i was broke i was stupid i was i had big ambitions and she believed in me she looked at the horse and she saw something but at the time i was not going anywhere useful and so it really was um her having the belief like you said but me knowing that she had gone for a long time helping turn me into something and i became that thing and she was never going to get recognized for it and that was really heartbreaking now she's ended up getting her fair share of credit and stepping out in front of the camera you think it was really important to her um no yeah exactly i just wanted her to be recognized for what she'd done you were working really hard she was supporting you i i think i honestly genuinely think that your relationship from what i can tell with your wife is beautiful i just simply disagree with how you got there okay so give me how do you think we got there like you were sitting there crying because you believe that she wanted some kind of credit for all this work that you had done why she had supported you now i was crying because i it was so grateful and i didn't think she would ever get the credit not that she wanted it but if she didn't want the credit don't you think she was fulfilled already and what she had done in supporting you yeah and that was probably part of why it was so uh actually no mixed in that was by then i knew that she was very unhappy being a stay-at-home wife really yeah this the and she didn't want to have children she did in the beginning and did not around that time yeah what do you think drove that i think it's complex so i want people to hear me i am walking a dangerous path that i do not recommend to people and i think the default path should be children i think the default path should be marriage and children but you have to figure out how to manage relationships very difficult especially if you have kids so i am i like i thank you i thank people very sincerely for having children i'm very grateful and i think it is what most people should do for a whole host of reasons uh so when she said she didn't want to have kids i was like you need to really think about this because i will get my meaning and purpose from building businesses and i'm while i think it's a higher risk path i love it and so far have not found myself saying i want kids enough that i want to have them now so my what i've always said about kids is i really want kids and i do the only thing i want more than i want to have kids is to not have kids now i've big brother and i know it's not the same it's a very small fraction but i've big brother enough to know what it's like to have somebody look up to you to have somebody who's like you're shaping me into an adult it is a deeply meaningful relationship even at that level so i can only imagine when it's your own progeny so i'm as a as somebody who doesn't have kids i'm about as aware as you're going to get the power of having children but i always just didn't want them a little bit more than i wanted them and so i was honest with myself and i said you're going to regret this decision when you're 80 once i'm done being a player and a coach i will regret that i don't have kids i will regret that they don't live beyond me and i know that when i'm on my death that'll be like man that really sucks now i can give a whole masterclass on it's all about controlling your own frame

Weighing getting married (02:32:58)

it's not controlling a frame isn't just about other people it's how do i think about myself and my own choices and so i know a part of me will be very sad part of me sad today that i don't have kids but it's very easy for me to frame what i'm doing and the choices that i'm making in a way that make me feel very good about my life it stops you from reframing it for yourself if you know this is to have kids yeah i could but why don't you because i don't have anything that compels me to make that change i don't think that my life would be better i think it would be safer but not better you don't think that your kids will add to your life i think they would but they will also take something away there's no utopia there are only trade-offs okay yeah but choices would be one freedom how i spend my time i know that i would have a very deep sense of obligation to my kids which is beautiful i love that about me i i'm i love that about me the same way that i feel a deep sense of obligation to all the employees that count on me to make wise decisions so they can pay their rent and raise their kids uh i love that about me i love that i feel that what would you say and by the way i do not agree with this yeah but what do you say to the people that would say that that's selfish i don't mind at all sure yeah i i i won't say that i don't care about what other people think but i don't steer by what other people think i think we are all the shout and the echo so the shout is what you do and what you say and the echo is what people think about it right and it's like yeah i hear that coming back and if it's brutal enough i saw one of your posts you said i'd look at when people throw hate at me i'd look at that to see if there's anything valid so i'm the same i do something negative comes back i think it's so is there first is there truth in it yeah it's the people that don't look at all they're insecure yeah they're insecure yeah i like to look at it and really try to find truth but yeah because it will make you better it will make you more effective it will make you more powerful so i will i do and believe that which removes me towards my goals so um i'm very honest that life is trade-offs now i was far more worried about my wife not having kids as you should in my that that's where to me surprisingly she doesn't have that urge she has the urge she feels similar to me in that she wants kids but she wants to not have kids more but

You're not entitled to your opinion (02:35:10)

i think being a woman it's inevitable that that pull will be much harder for her so we ran a bunch of thought experiments that will only dampen whatever regret she's gonna have so much and we just said what's it's gonna look like when you're no longer interested in being an entrepreneur and you're tired and you don't have grandkids and you're looking around to your friends and they do have grandkids how are you going to build meaning and purpose into your life because kids to me are two things they are a sense of i live on which i do not underestimate and they are a sense of meaning and purpose i have done something with my life that mattered and if you have kids and you raise them well you will feel that and if you don't you're misframing it unless you were abusive or horrible or something so you get that and nature has given you that nature has built that in and so it's like i really caution people against nature has built this up you've got a ready-made sense of meaning and purpose and if you if you shun that it's a very high-risk game so anyway i we have walked into this with our eyes wide open the thing that really scares me for my wife is if i die and she doesn't have kids and that was always her terror she was like if something happens to you and i don't have kids i was like you have to really think about that and so because my whole thing was if you want kids we'll have kids but i'm not gonna wake up in the middle of the night to take care of them i'm building business i'm slaying dragons right yep that's why i see it and i don't i don't i don't wake up i don't wake up for the kids no no and so upon reflection i believe in gender roles completely also i have no problem even gender roles yeah gender roles i have no problem with women in business at all but when it comes to a household i believe that the happiest people do have gender roles in place dude i want to say you're crazy but i agree yeah i know and it's not even a super unpopular say and it blows my mind is that it said that way women have like i would not take my children to a male babysitter they're not wired to nurture and love those kids in the same way that a woman is i would say by default the law of averages says that it will end up being a woman yeah everything in terms of nurturing ability to care for i'm sure there are guys out there that are amazing it's just it's going to be a small fucking number right very small and i feel like i'm loving my children every day when i'm working endlessly agree to create a better life for them in the future one of my biggest goals in life is to have something set up when i'm gone i have this vision of a gentleman walking in in a suit all my children are sitting around a table and he starts to unload what i set up for them and my kids are just sitting there saying he did what and he put it in this and it's a trust and we don't pay the as a man you know and i'm not there anymore and they knew i took care of them fully and they knew that when i was gone and i was you know on the road or when i was stressed out or if i was sitting at the dinner table quiet that i was fighting those battles for them and i left it all to them and that there's a legacy there so i mostly get encouragement and motivation from envisioning who i'll be it never comes from anger it never comes from competing really and that particular moment is a moment that i'll never live to see but i i know for a fact it'll be real and it inspires me to work for those little girls every day and to you know make sure that i'm setting up their reality in a way that benefits because i was here you know and a guy like you not having a child is um it's interesting to me because there's so much there's so much you would be able to give them you know and i know that you've given that to the world but in other ways i can't imagine how you'd give to that kid you know what i'm saying and i mean that's super respectfully you would be a killer fucking dad very kind yeah i'm sure i would again i'm not being not being nice to you no like i genuinely believe that like the kid would end up

Why you'd be a good father (02:39:40)

being a guru maybe i mean that that's a role of the dice well guru but one of the things that haunts me and in fact i want to ask you so you're wealthy you're very successful your kids are going to struggle to get out from under your shadow already so what do you do to make sure that money doesn't break them yeah that's a great question i think i'm going to face that mostly as it comes to me i i do want to put my kids in a position to be affluent with the right people in their life networking wise they won't be able to get out of hard work i suspect they will work for the family business if they choose not to i would like to see them marry off to somebody and go help that gentleman built and i'm talking about my girls people ask me all the time was like what are you going to do if your daughter is married guy like you i fucking hope so i really do because he'll be strong enough to allow her to let go and be inside inside his frame because she believes in him and he's strong just much like your wife believed in you in your strength i would want that for my little girls or they would work for me i think one of their bigger issues is going to be fun in a man that i don't absolutely beat the landslide in every category i think that's going to be their problem and that's a problem i like them having so in regards to not spoiling them too much i don't i don't think it's completely possible but i do think that giving them a firm taste of reality and what the world actually looks like outside of their world like making them visit the real estate properties making them work in the business those are those are obvious things and then slapping my own hand and creating the frame of myself to make sure i don't spoil them too badly which will be hard i bet it's going to be super hard i already bought already bought emery uh i i told you i bought that hurricane evo well i bought her one that she can get in and i get to drive her around in it so i'm already kind of spoiling her a little bit but uh shit she's got a bigger closet than i ever had growing up you know she's spoiled and

Dr. Phil I am not (02:41:31)

eva is uh is not quite old enough to be super spoiled yet but give her time give her a little time yeah do you have an ideal number of kids you want to have i don't man and also just to clarify i don't know that i'll ever have another wife you know i love my family i really really care your wife i try i try not to let me tell you why i try not to say it on youtube or anything like that is because i don't believe in bringing the state into my business and i feel like if i were to call her my wife a whole lot it would just be used against me interesting you know what i'm saying but that's probably not true um plus there's some you know we have some things in place but uh yes she's my wife man i love that girl bro completely completely there's some part of you though that still is i don't know what word you're going to accept so feed me the word i'm going to give you a started word but is tense that whether it's i don't want to call her wife too much because it can be used against me like literally lisa what what would you like i will write everything down that could be read and cord i'll live whatever and to me that's the point like i don't know why people stay in a relationship if they don't feel that way women are a sacrifice my wife is a pain in my ass and so i'm like uh if you weren't the most amazing creature i've ever encountered in my life i would never put up with just having to deal with what somebody else wants like everything is is everything is a compromise when you're in a relationship and i'm sure she feels exactly the same way well maybe that's just people affecting affecting my viewpoint on the subject she's not she's not a thorn in my side at all and um i don't have any major concern that i'm going to have legal issues with her i will tell you a large part of my childhood revolved around that with the 12 custody courts my mom tweeted twice everyone put us on a foster home there's a lot of violence and things going on my mom she even made a youtube channel when i first started really like trying to like talk shit and she put it really go about you oh yeah she's sick bro like she's not a bad person she's just sick man none of her family can talk to her she's beat the shit out of us like physically she's a strong woman a lot of my genetics actually come from my mother she was built like an amazon anyway i say all that to say that i saw a lot of what happens to a man when he gets wrecked in a divorce my dad got charged with everything from battering her sexual molestation of us they were sent him this to child therapy all these things i don't feel like i have trauma from it i feel like i'm a grown man they can look back at and say those things happened what can i learn from it what could my dad have done differently maybe that he didn't even have the information and know he could have done because back then all you have was brimstone and the bible right and that's what he had saw work with his dad his dad came home from world war two or the i guess world war one he was going to world war two he built a house he formed a bunch of cotton in oxford mrs. sippy had one wife his whole life she would bring tea and cook three meals a day the structure worked and i see that that worked and my dad tried it and my mom would you know go seeking other men hypergamy in church mind you that's rough yeah and and then he was taken through this ringer of false allegations and he fought his ass off and fought his ass off and fought his ass off to keep us in his life and i don't know if you saw it but i just paid his house off congratulations yeah it was probably one of the biggest achievements of my life man and uh and if anything i just have a very realistic understanding of how the court system and everything is set up but it doesn't change my feelings for that woman she's changed her name she's a big-ass ring big-ass house babies nanny the whole thing do you live in the house with her and she likes blondes that does not hurt uh-huh that does not hurt when i'm there i have two houses in louisiana and yeah well yeah so i have two houses that i keep open the youtube team comes and they stand up in the old house and then i stay in the big house with the nanny the kids and the wife and a lot of times the mother-in-law's there and i have people coming over and things like i've never said any of this online actually uh but i have the most fulfilling family life i could ever imagine or dream of i get photos like this podcast my little girls will watch this this will be planned in the living room there's no lies even even i know my mother-in-law sees the things i say but you know what there's a lot of respect between all of us there's a lot of spending time together and having real conversations that have depth to them there's a lot of trust there and i lead the family and the businesses with conviction and i and i love all my people and i love my family and they know that and i can be um and ask if i need to but most often i never even need to and uh i really really have a fulfilled life in in that particular area man my family life

Life And Personal Development

The good life (02:46:59)

is much better than anything you'll ever see online and why do you think people have a hard time believing that because they're not seeing all of me you know and a lot of you don't want them to see oh i think a lot of it is my fault when i for i didn't expect to come in online i met a group of guys i always kind of wanted to what man doesn't want to have a big podcast especially like nowadays right but i wouldn't let myself because i wasn't a liquid millionaire yet so on my whole 20s i remember watching i would watch all this stuff i've watched you for years i knew who you were with like when when tomas sent me the message like yo impact there he called it i'm like bull shit i was super excited man and i'm honored to be here but i kind of i knew i wanted to but i wasn't in that place in my life where i felt like i had completed all the boxes i had set up to check i know the feeling very well yeah and so i didn't and also learned from that that the the goals that i made in my 20s i was not yet qualified to make for my 30s you know so when i got to 30 and i wasn't where i wanted to be you know i felt like i had failed but what i had forgotten is that the goal that i had said i wasn't qualified to make it 24 right and uh i met sturling cooper and i met andrew interesting and i was thinking about and i even started a channel and right about the time i did is when andrew texted me he's like yo we were in miami and he said uh come he dinner with me so i did and he's like dude i really believe in you i know you don't have any followers but i believe that you will because you have everything it takes and you built a real business in the real world you'll garner a lot of respect from people online for sure you know you're building still buildings all over america like you're building a country it's a real business why don't you you see what i've done you feel how you feel about the war room and i love the war room why don't you just help me so we can help as many people as possible handshake done and i never look back i'll never start a group i'll never you know go out and and try to make a war room or anything like that but that's how it got started and then it just grew and grew and grew to where it is now and um i get a lot of support from her in that area and i get a lot of support from my family and the people that run my businesses and and everything so it was one of the best decisions i've ever made i think honestly very fulfilling you know i love that i love that your i love the loyalty i love doing things with friends i love understanding hey i can be bigger as a part of this and win a championship than if i tried to do it on my own and i didn't answer you though the reason i had not shown it is because i thought that i would want to protect it in some way but what i came to grow to learn in this time is that people are not seeing the side of me that laughs all

The whole person (02:49:32)

the time they're not seeing the side of me that love people they're only seeing this rigid side where i'm arguing with some girl that has an only fans account and that could not be further from who i actually am in real life and one thing i did learn from Andrew is that i won't make the mistake of not showing that other side of me now i'm not saying he's wrong but i am saying that there's just other great side of myself and him and that others should see so they understand the full you know wholeness of who we are as people because i honestly think i'm a really really really good dad in fact i know i am and uh i expect that i'm going to show that more because just showing a little bit is more of a live from omission than is given the real truth so yeah i mean i look i i get the strategy of building a persona and then sticking to it but one i think the people that build a persona they end up helping people less than they think because that person is going to test their persona against

The proper order of things (02:50:43)

the real world and finds that it comes up wanting uh and when you are your whole self it's harder to package i know from experience uh but at the same time you'll feel good about it you'll have a lot more staying power um because you know people know who you are and as you evolve you can evolve things you're not you don't have to suddenly play a new character it's just you're really evolving in real time and that's that i think that will play out a lot better speaking of the holistic version of you what makes you good at business it's my leadership right in the beginning i was i was really big-hearted right and i wanted to spend time with the guys and i wanted to help them set up like you know insurance things where they could get wealthy from it and uh how did you even get your business started like you're a zero to one story those are the most brutal you do not come from money yep don't come from an obvious town that would end up sparking a very successful entrepreneur yeah certainly not i mean i just i don't even know where to start if i had to make a business out of putting up steel buildings so how do you take that from idea to actually having a multi-million dollar business so i can give you i guess i can give you a life path of it you know i first had to get a job somehow it's 2009 i've told the story many times but basically i went to the same place so many times of us finally saw me and instead of getting mad at me he liked me for interrupting his office so much saying give me a job yep and so he gave me a job and i saved the money up to apply for my contractor's license test my stepfather had done metal buildings in backyards and uh he also had worked for this company and we had a house fire we actually had two house fires because somebody in our house knew how insurance worked we spoke about her um and i remember going to this guy's house and being like this dude puts up metal bills he had a basketball court in his house you know and uh he wasn't like balling like this house but like you could tell like you go from like a shitty neighborhood to his neighborhood there was a there was a dissonance between the two right and i'm in like seventh grade at this point i'm like cool and then in my town in Baton Rouge um you ever seen the movie October Skies no but i've heard you talk about it yeah so my October Skies instead of going to the coal mill i didn't want to work in the plants and so i'm looking at my situation i'm like well i'm not doing that good in school i was smart you know i can make good grades but i'm super uninterested and um i was like okay what do i need to do to get out of here well sports so i played baseball football baseball and basketball all the way to my junior year and i said the only fool ride here is football at this time so i've heard you talk about football is very transactional you end up getting your scholarship but are you already like okay i'm going to get rich here's my life path i'm going to start a business no that's what i was leading to actually we were going to play Arkansas i don't know if you follow college football at all but they were good at the time there was a guy named dair mcfadden blah blah i read rich that we're in and i told my roommate that night a guy named zig zakari i said man i'm on a business one day and he goes all right yeah cool funny enough he texts me just last week i'm not talking to him in like 15 years and he's like i see you online all the time bro you did it but i finished college there's no jobs i beat on that guy's door until he finally gives me a job i went to the bank got him autodraft all the money out of the

Optimizing for growth over money. (02:54:40)

account so i could live poor save the money okay so whoa whoa brilliant decision so this is like the breaking point where first of all most people don't think of the idea they don't allow themselves to believe they can do it you do that's important step number one important step number two and i've heard you talk about this you always rush past it and i don't know why so this the willingness to be poor this is i always i'm always trying to convince people like in the beginning do not try to optimize for money try to optimize for the knowledge in this case getting the loans so that you can do your thing but optimize for that thing that's going to let you set up the business yeah and so you lived super poor yeah very much you autodrafted how much out of your yeah it was like 80 90 percent of my check so i was Jesus the job ended up being actually in New Orleans with the guy with the company i went with actually ended up getting offered two jobs and and you were just like what is the least i can live on mm-hmm yeah so i had like a seven hundred and fifty dollar a month rent and i was making seventy five dollars a day in per diem so i would mostly live off per diem it was this little hole in the wall magazine street New Orleans and so i got to experience the city a bit but then i drive out to this big levy job and i was able to autodraft that money to get the ten thousand dollars in the bank account i took that bank statement to the contractors licensing board and batten rooch then i moved the money and then went and applied for my residential at the same time i'm not sure if i had to but i didn't want to risk it and how did you figure out all the things you had to do to start the company oh i drove to the contractors licensing board and went in person and just asked the lady behind the desk did that so there's a sweet little black lady brought she helped me through the whole thing dude people will always help like it's yeah racy people just never ask they don't ask man like it like out of out of a whole

Building out your network. (02:56:06)

year i might have been the only person that walked in and asked you know and i think that you super have that power when you're young man you know like if you're starting a business and you start asking people for help bro i had some kids come to my house in louisiana the other day to pressure washing i was just so impressed that they were beating on doors in a country club and i'm like whatever the price is do it you know it's hard not to pull for ambition you know especially being american like i feel like this whole country was built on that and so that's what i did and i started doing buildings in backyards uh it was really hard in the beginning you know because a lot of the guys that i was i was trying to be the project manager the the guy begging for money at the bank the bookkeeper you know the guy that showed up when somebody got too drunk so i so you quickly realized if i'm going to scale this i have to scale my team yes well leadership kicks in i ended up running in no actually i ended up running in the emith mmm i had him on the show yeah gherber oh nice um i ended up running in the emith and so i started to build systems and i started to get in a position where i looked big on paper and so instead of doing backyard buildings i started sending quotes for doing much much larger buildings to general what made you look big on paper and was that strategic yes so it was strategic because it was really just me and my pickup truck and like four or five guys who were so you like definitely on paper i can make myself look different than this i can yeah i can look better on paper and and was that letterhead and it was references letterhead i got my hands on somebody else's bid template which is like five six pages will not do this you must clean the anchor bolts i will have a hundred foot of circumference around the slab like it just looked really good right their license number was on the bottom so i just do all my macbook and a store books right and then and then oh shit job time so go run to the job you know drive their truck tools but i knew that doing that and have an insurance and i paid somebody to a website really are i reinvested in the business a lot the problem i would run into is the actual manpower itself and that's when it got you know really really hard because you know you'd have multiple buildings going on the same time we'd go to bigger buildings and these GCs don't play like you're swimming with sharks in construction because they have a schedule you better hit it and you better be safe and your men better not make a mistake and your men don't even want to be there a lot of time there's there's yeah so it's it's that and and there's nothing there's no punches pulled it's a very legal game you know they will hit you with liquidated damages very quickly which is basically three thousand dollars a day you missed a schedule especially on school projects and things like that and then you go to put the roof on sorry the kids are testing you have to come back tomorrow but what about my equipment that's sitting here on rent like there's all these things right the business is difficult i'll never forget my first line of credit was fifteen thousand dollars so i can make much twenty five hundred dollar payrolls but i eventually got in a position where i'd had enough momentum i'd hired and fired enough people that enough people it stuck and at that point i was very rigid because i just been lied to so much so much and it finally after the systems were there and i hired the right people and i had some bonus structures in place and that lady i told you about Renee her name's Renee uh love you Renee she came in and it was almost like that exercise you see on youtube but the two people dancing in the field and they see the two people dancing in the field and then all of a sudden it's five people then it's ten people and then it's twenty people that woman believing in me and getting behind me and helping me and we set up some really good systems around recruiting i'd already built them but she helped me get them implemented uh from there about five or six years ago got us to the point where it was just a moonshot we were just able to dep- duplicate it duplicate duplicate it project process pre-construction contract checklist retainage how we pay people like everything it's like somebody finally got behind the systems i had built when i had emith and i knew that i could actually trust some people and for that that guard that i had up around you can't trust anybody because with good reason i was getting lied to left and rise by my own tools at the pawn shop like it was fucked uh we finally created a culture where now my men will kick other guys off the job if they're not working and i mean there's many things that happened i had a guy i didn't know this but he got he'd give me some paperwork that was wrong and he wasn't supposed to be here and he got picked up eyes oof yep and i paid 25 grand to keep him here and i'm obligated to him with the government wow but you don't think that gets around i didn't say you don't think there's gonna be loyalty there you know so it's one of those things where i had to take some punches and when we came out on the other side i was able to trust people in a way that i knew that i could actually let them do their job and then we could talk about you know and of course we have daily reports and everything we're constantly plotting and planning but then andrew and tristan brought that out of me even more like because that's what you originally asked me and i just think it's because how many years ago was this what that you started working with them oh it's been like three years yeah so are you saying that your business took a big turn when you met them no i was already making a bunch of money my life was great so what were the key things that you started piecing together because so i

C.E.O. problem solving (03:02:19)

teach an entrepreneurship class yeah and i find it is very difficult to actually teach people what they need to do because the real thing i'll be interested to see if you agree with this here's what a i know you cringe at ceo but here's what a ceo has to do i hate it you have to be good at solving novel problems a problem not only have you not seen before nobody seen before and you have to be able to go in and figure it out whether it's ice or it's uh the sheet metal isn't connecting the way it's supposed to or you've got everything on rent and the school is pushing back whatever you have to be able to figure out all those problems when there's nobody else to ask right and so how do you teach somebody to be good at that so i'm very curious what were some of those key moments so you learned okay i've got to be able to trust my employees you read emith and you realize i've got have a system i can't work in my business i have to work on it you start building out charts and data all the checklist how did you figure out what data to look at yeah so i got in a bunch of mentors i joined the metal building contractors director association i was i was a board member at a very early age i'm pretty sure i was a youngest board member ever um and i got a lot of that information from them and then everything else was really just a mistake we had made that it might as well go on this checklist now because i don't ever want to pay for it again and that's generally how i am it's like if i've got to make some mistake and i know there's intent there and intent is very important to me um but i'm okay with it it's the guy that skips it on the checklist that's going to get fired right and as far as being a CEO i believe the number one driving factor for a co to be successful in my opinion is to be a playmaker because you're right he's working on the business and there's new problems that are attacking the business that have become threat to a business and he's got to be able to on the hip while the plane is in the air put the duct tape on the wing and figure out a way to get to a different level a new altitude and i was very very good at that and and maybe maybe it's because i'm a bit ad and i like the hyper focus and i'm very good in chaos you know um i'm not very good at being organized but if you create a storm i'm really good in that and so for me it just made sense it never even felt like i was reading a there's no book i read to do that and i think people either have


Think for themselves (03:04:20)

that or they don't i constantly tell Renee i'm like man if we could just figure out a way to figure out if somebody can think for themselves or not we will have the biggest deal company in the history of construction but it's really hard to do that it's really really hard to do and uh and i think i had that particular gift naturally and i had the other gift of bringing people together and creating trust and having bonds with them but i wasn't able to release that part until you know i had had some people that were willing to dance to the same rhythm and row the boat in the same direction and that caught on and it caught on like wildfire in a lot of ways and then running into Andrew and Tristan i saw what it was like to truly trust a brother something i had never really had i grew up in a house full of five there's five kids but we have different dads there was like seven or eight years apart they're pretty overweight like there's not a lot in common so i always felt like i was really just a black sheep mall family and um and seeing them have that relationship has been very

Partnership Trust

Trusting your partners (03:05:17)

very beneficial to me because i've noticed the more trust that i put into people especially people that i know deserve it the more they don't want to let me down and i think that's abundantly valuable in business and it creates a lot of speed so when we trust each other we can go fast because i'm not worried about anybody snaking me you're still in business or anything like that and they have that any one of them could steal all the money from the other one at any time and um i have some employees that could wreck me if they wanted to but they won't and i think a lot of that is that that trust that's already there that they would never want to sabotage and so um that's that's kind of how we got there in a nutshell it's a very short-winded version but um that also circles back into the trust question you had yeah as i was going to say it's been an interesting theme that's cropped up where can people follow you you can go to my website to get free emails every day at justinwinwoller.com i love it awesome all right everybody if you haven't already be sure to subscribe and until next time my friends be legendary take care peace if you're single you are not going to want to miss this episode with Chris Williamson but it's more than 50 percent of people are starting their relationships online at the moment and they don't stick about as long relationships that start online are not as uh they don't have the longevity they don't have the staying power.

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